“That’s Not Official Doctrine”

See: Mormonism, Officiality, and Plausible Deniability

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31 Responses to “That’s Not Official Doctrine”

  1. Rick B says:

    It’s only truth and maybe doctrine if the LDS agree and like something, otherwise it is simply their opinion. The Prophets simply cannot agree and I find it funny the average LDS person seems to know more about things than the prophets do.

    It is also taught by the LDS church that, The prophet cannot lead the Church astray. Yet their are things that were taught that were believed to be scripture or doctrine that are no longer taught and simply wrote off as , Their mere opinion or speculation.

    Then it is also taught, The prophet is the ONLY person that can speak for the Lord in everything. Yet again the average LDS seems to speak for the Lord in everything.

    Then it is the LDS church that claims, The prophet does not have to say, “Thus saith the Lord” To give us scripture.

    I love this one the best. This is their get out of jail free ticket. If they like something and believe it, it can be doctrine, yet if they dont agree it is “speculation”. If they dont agree with something it is not binding doctrine.

    So as a result of this saying, we can never really know if it is doctrine or not since “Thus saith the Lord” was never used.

    I love this one also, The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

    I know many ex-lds who reject the Living LDS prophet, myself included and many other religions that reject the LDS living prophet, and guess what, were not suffering. But I know, someone will tell me it speaks of suffering to come, not suffering here and now.

  2. parkman says:

    I followed the link to what Aaron was referring to and found this;
    “Mormonism, Officiality, and Plausible Deniability
    By Aaron Shafovaloff
    Perhaps the most honest and appropriate page on the entire lds.org domain is http://www.lds.org/official-doctrine. As of October 2, 2009, it reads, “The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it.” The irony is rich.”

    Like what I see from most who are critical of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Aaron is making much to do about nothing.

    “But I know, someone will tell me it speaks of suffering to come, not suffering here and now.”
    One of the main reasons you have knowledge about the LDS Church is how open it is with all of its teachings and writings. There are many false teachers that are critical of the Church and try hard to keep you from studying the entire of the LDS writings by working hard to make you feel something they take out of context is indeed the truth and implying that you would be dumb to study LDS teachings yourself.

    THE TROLL
    (I am called a Troll because I keep asking you to prove that your version of Christianity is true. I believe you should treat your religions teachings and doctrine the same as you treat mine.)

  3. canuck54 says:

    “One of the main reasons you have knowledge about the LDS Church is how open it is with all of its teachings and writings.”

    The LDS church is open With ALL it’s teachings? Really? Can I walk into an LDS church and ask about what goes on in the temple? Will they tell ALL?! No. How about if I ask the missionaries about what is expected of me should I join. It goes far beyond the “plan of happiness.” Puhleese!

    canuck

  4. Rick B says:

    Parkman said

    One of the main reasons you have knowledge about the LDS Church is how open it is with all of its teachings and writings

    That was funny parkman, Now your a comedian.

    This is so far from the truth that it is not funny. I have said many times on this blog, I will issue a challenge to any LDS that feels Parkman knows what he is talking about. Other LDS have made that same claim about the church being open and honest.

    I will give any LDS member my home address and phone number, we will set up a time for you to come to my house and I will contact a local LDS church and have some MM’s come to my house with you. I will not tell them why you are over or even let them know you are a Mormon, you wont say anything about that either just to be fair and unbiased.

    Then I will ask them some very honest questions and I can tell you that many questions will not be answered, not because they dont know, but because they will use the excuse of Milk before meat and will not be open and honest as Parkman claims.

    Then their was a video posted here once with Bill talking about how he went to visit the carthridge Jail and the information about JS shooting a gun was never openly talked about, and when it came up in question they tried to avoid it, or if they did talk about it, they were really vague and tried to down play it. So much for being open and honest as Parkman claims.

    Many of us here have examples like this of Mormons not being totally open and honest as Parkman claims.

  5. peshitta says:

    “One of the main reasons you have knowledge about the LDS Church is how open it is with all of its teachings and writings.”

    Oh my goodness, I have not had a laugh like that in a very very very long time!

    What is the whole David Twede incident that is occurring right now? You have a member who is going through an excommunication hearing just because he is posting objective material on the Internet. This is the truth of the LDS church: they suppress and control all information and doctrine from the top, down within their realm of influence.

    This is a fact for anybody in the know. Members cannot bring up topics such as polygamy, racism, massive revisions of their own scriptures, plagiarism, or even the stone in the hat trick in any type of formal or informal church setting with priesthood holders without getting shut down. That is a fact.

    Come on, man. You may be able to throw that in when talking with outsiders who would not know the difference but not here. It is your words against the mountain of ex-Mormons and Christians from all stripes who know how the hierarchy functions, and those who have talked with LDS missionaries know it to be true.

  6. parkman says:

    It is not my fault that most of you cannot find what is freely given. More often than not, it is easy to find the information on the internet. The LDS Church spends a lot of time and money insuring that knowledge is easily available. On the one thing we believe is to sacred to teach outside the Temple, there have been enough people of your following that have allowed you to participate after the fact in their crime of steeling it.

  7. Rick B says:

    Parkman said

    One of the main reasons you have knowledge about the LDS Church is how open it is with all of its teachings and writings.

    Parkman, First you claim your church is open with all of is teachings. Then when people tell you thats not true and give reasons why, then you say,

    It is not my fault that most of you cannot find what is freely given. More often than not, it is easy to find the information on the internet.

    This sounds like your changing your story. Also you cannot say, it’s not your fault if we cannot find info since it is available on the internet.

    I know for a fact from personal experience what your saying is either not true, or you really are mis-informed.

    I have been sharing with Mormons since about 1995 . When I first started sharing with LDS, Computers were pretty much limited to a select few rich people, they did not have laptops, and everything was very slow download speeds. The vast amounts of info did not exist like they do today.

    So when ever I spoke with Mormons, they would deny everything I said, and said everything I am saying is false. I sadly did not simply have the resources available today to go on line back then and pull up information. So for example, if I quoted BY and said he claimed Adam God, or Blacks can never hold the priesthood, LDS I spoke with would say, You cannot prove that. So I knew of somebody who owned the JoD and I asked them, can you send me photo copys of these saying from BY.

    They sent them to me and I showed the LDS. Their response was either these are fakes, or I dont have enough (cont)

  8. Rick B says:

    (Cont)
    Of the photo copy to show full context. So much for the Mormons either knowing about these teachings, or being open and honest about them.

    So then to prove what I was saying, I had to spend years of my time and thousands of dollars buying books that the LDS church put out and start reading them. I bought the entire JoD all 27 volumes, that was not cheap. I bought the 1888 pearl of great price, the original D and C with the lectures of faith bound into them, the entire set of History of the church, many LDS movies/videos. The J.S.T of the Bible, the seer, and many other books.

    Then when I would go with books in hand to show the mormons, some wanted to buy them from me, I said no. some claimed they were fakes, Of course they would say that.

    Some would reply with, they were not really endorsed by the church. I could give many more examples of excuses the LDS made.

    Then a few years ago I went to SLC Utah and spent a two week vacation on my own dime with a friend touring the entire temple grounds. Guess what, the MM’s giving the tours were never once open to answering questions they did not like. I was just walking around one building with my buddy and their was a tour of about maybe 10 people, I walked up and asked one of the Missionary’s a question.

    Right off the bat, a person in the tour said, Oh, good question, no sooner did this person say that, then the two MM’s took me and my friend away from the group and said to the group, we will keep touring over here. They then showed me and my friend the door. (cont)

  9. Rick B says:

    (Cont)
    Thats really being open and honest about what they teach huh. The best one of all was, I was touring another building and flat out asked a MM about JS shooting a gun, killing at least one person and jumping out the window of the jail like the coward he really was.

    Instead of replying to me, she walked away, came back a few minutes later with a guy dressed like an FBI agent, he was about the size of Brock Lesner and said, I will be removed if I cause any more trouble. I told him, all I did was ask a question about JS. This guy flat out told me, I am NOT ALLOWED to ask questions that cause controversy. Wow, again, so much for being open and honest about what they teach, believe or even things said by prophets in the past, regardless of if they were taught as scripture and doctrine or it was mere opinion.

    You and Shem can both tell me all you want about how wrong I am, but their are way to many people that claim the same types of stories and people who live in Utah , that are ex-mormons who have posted here and talk about how Family is simply not open to looking into these things once taught. Or People who were never LDS that stand on the streets of Utah by the temple and get removed by the Mormon Police and are not allowed to ask questions or even talk to people, So you keep telling yourself the church is open and honest, many of us no better.

  10. parkman says:

    “I know for a fact from personal experience what your saying is either not true, or you really are mis-informed.”
    My personal experience before becoming a Mormon was very different. All my questions were answers, even if the member had to say something like, “I don’t know, let us look it up”. Over the years I have met some social Mormons who act like you describe, but like I have said before, the information was out there fifty years ago when I started looking into why there are so many Christian Churches that do not agree with each other.

    “They then showed me and my friend the door.”
    Based on your actions here at this blog I would say it had more to do with how you acted and not what you asked.

    “This guy flat out told me, I am NOT ALLOWED to ask questions that cause controversy. Wow, again, so much for being open and honest about what they teach, believe or even things said by prophets in the past, regardless of if they were taught as scripture and doctrine or it was mere opinion.” “Or People who were never LDS that stand on the streets of Utah by the temple and get removed by the Mormon Police …”
    If you do not like the idea of only being allowed to demonstrate and ask distracting questions in certain places, look at how mrm does what you say is wrong by where and how I can question what they teach.

  11. peshitta says:

    Prime example of how the LDS church silences and punishes objective inquiry:

    http://mormonthink.com/resignation_letter.htm

    This is just one persons story which resonates true to for all Mormons who have been punished and excommunicated for simply raising doubts and asked tough questions about their religion.

    A person may claim that the LDS hierarchy goes to great extents to get the information out to their laity, but go and walk around Utah and Southern Idaho and create your own poll of ex-Mormons and ask them why they are no longer in the Church; they will tell you how the LDS church resembles something out of 1984.

    Furthermore, the information the LDS church does put out this is often blatant lies and half truths. For example, FAIR is an organization that is funded by the LDS church. One of their apologists Scott Gordon gave a live presentation held at the Utah Valley University entitled ‘Mormonism and the Internet’. He lists 5 LDS sources that he claims states that Joseph translated the BOM by using a stone in a hat. However, 3 of the 5 authoritative sources he gave had no reference to a hat anywhere within them. That is a blatant lie by an apologist organization funded by the LDS Church that is claimed to be putting information out there.

    I have many many more examples if you would like to hear them? But let’s keep to the topic, the LDS church attempts to control doctrine by not defining it in a shroud of “official” designation vs “folklore.”

  12. Mike R says:

    Pa[filtered profanity or slur]ta makes some good points . The Mormon hierarchy who run the powerful billion
    dollar corporation have been reluctant in the past to allow full access to their archives ,
    it’s only because of the advent of the internet that has forced these men’s hand that more
    info has been made available to the public . Every so often we here of the First Presidencies
    vault , and only they know what’s secluded in there. Mormons still don’t know where their
    money goes and exactly how much their leadership gets paid. These are things that those
    investigating the Mormon church should be aware of . The whole conundrum with what is
    actual ” official ” teachings of Mormonism seems to have born out of the need for the
    church to be accepted as a bona-fide christian church in society about the last half of the
    20th century . This transition would only go more smoothly if some of it’s ” unique” doctrines
    were down-played or out- right denied , hence the , “that’s not official doctrine ” became more
    and more used by Church leaders especially whenever public interviews were given , though
    in private it might be another matter. My heart goes to the Mormon people who as followers
    are told to submit to their hierarchy in order to please God . They deserve better .

  13. peshitta says:

    Yes, Mike R, and in case anyone is not in the know on what the topic is about, there is a phenomenon that has been going on for some time in which apologists and spokesmen who claim to not officially represent the LDS church (but they are still funded by said church specifically to do all the philosophical heavy-lifting on their behalf) will brand far-out LDS doctrines (at least with regards to historical Christian orthodoxy) as ambiguous “folklore” rather than official doctrine.

    One recent example is when Richard Bushman labeled the doctrine of the Garden of Eden being in Missouri (adam-ondi-Ahman) as Mormon folklore. However, this teaching is officially taught by the LDS church in their scriptures,

    http://www.lds.org/scriptures/history-maps/photo-10?lang=eng

    as well as being taught by Joseph Smith (the alleged Prophet of the Restored Gospel) himself,

    D&C 116:1
    Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, near Wight’s Ferry, at a place called Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri, 19 May 1838 (see History of the Church, 3:35).
    1. Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

    D&C 107:53
    53. Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

    D&C 117:8
    8. Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt, that you should covet that which is but the drop, and neglect the more weighty matters?

    There are many many more examples such as this.

  14. parkman says:

    Funny how your poster boy does not want to be a member of the LDS Church yet he will go to his old ward. We will see if he is going to worship or to cause a problem.

    “I’ve decided that I no longer wish to be a member of an organization…” {the LDS Church}

    “The Florida blogger plans to go to his own LDS services on Sunday, too, he said.”

    As for why he was asked to meet with his local Church leaders, he cannot get his story straight.

    “The Florida blogger initially told the news media last week that the threatened church action was due to his comments about Romney. Hours later, Twede told The Salt Lake Tribune his LDS leaders never brought up the candidate in their exchange with him. The next day, Twede returned to “a feeling in [his] gut” that his Romney remarks had triggered the now-delayed disciplinary council.”

    http://mormonthink.com/resignation_letter.htm
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54979428-78/twede-church-lds-mormon.html.csp

  15. peshitta says:

    The LDS hierarchy pushes down to its tithing base the teaching that if someone leaves their church it is not for intellectual reasons, but because they want to live in sin, which makes them simple troublemakers. That claim has been  made on this blog as applying to Mr. Twede and therefore to the previous managing editor of the objective LDS website as well (who’s resignation letter was given in a URL and identified intellectual reasons as to why he resigned).

    But what about other prominent ex-Mormons  who have either resigned or been excommunicated? Were they troublemakers living in sin or were they struggling with the bottleneck of information from their leadership? Let’s look at some more examples:

    Latayne Scott, “I was startled over and over by … what Mormon history really was like—the deceptions of Joseph Smith, the failed prophecies, the ignoble shams. The Book of Mormon continued to crumble before my eyes… The Book of Abraham was an embarrassing fraud.”

    Richard Packham, “In fact, some of the more religious-minded of my classmates (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican) seemed already to have some knowledge about Mormonism, and brought up supposed facts about Mormonism that I had never heard of.  … But these were issues that obviously must have an explanation, and I became determined to find those explanations and to show my friends that their knowledge of Mormonism was mistaken. … Unfortunately, browsing among the materials in that university library exposed me to more and more problems.”

    Jim Whitefield, “Day after devastating day, I discovered more and more of the truth. I somehow had to face and accept and then deal with the fact that Joseph Smith was a fraud who deliberately created a hoax to satisfy his own ambitions. Every single aspect I looked at was demonstrably not true… (cont)

  16. peshitta says:

    (cont) … What hurts the most is that the real truth behind the hoax that the Mormon Church actually is can be found within falsified Church history and so-called scripture, rather than in [filtered profanity or slur] literature. The truth is deliberately and knowingly hidden from rank and file Mormons today, through entirely reconstructed history, altered scriptures and selective teachings.”

    Lyndon Lamborn, “These issues and others (polygamy, dark skin curse doctrine, etc.) eventually began to surface and I became increasingly uncomfortable with my core beliefs. The desire to know the truth at whatever cost finally outweighed the desire and need to believe and belong at about age 45. I eagerly began to study. I wrote book reports, I recorded trends and patterns, and I immersed myself in books.”

    The full testimonies of these few individuals can be read at

    http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/testimonies.html

    along with many other scholars who have left the LDS religion not for a desire to live a life of troublesome sin. I thought I originally labeled the former editor of Mr. Twede’s LDS website as one example and not a poster boy.

    Ex-Christians don’t leave for reasons such as “Oh, the church lied to me about the resurrection because I finally read all the ancient first century documents that describe a competing resurrection myth”, or “Oh, the church lied to me about Jesus not having any children because I read all statements by the church  fathers stating that he had kids.” Ex-Mormons, on the other hand, have been leaving in droves when they discovered just some of the modified forms of these arguments that apply to their religion.

    My heart goes out to them.

  17. parkman says:

    Just a bet, some Mormon critic will ignore the truth and keep using this story to “prove” the Church wrong.

    “He had recently returned to the church after a five-year hiatus — not because of a spiritual awakening, he says, but so he could play watch-dog at the services.

    “I cannot effectively address the concerns of members of my church if I am not there with them seeing what they see and hearing what they hear,” he told CNN this week in an e-mail.”

    (snip)

    “The Mormon Church has struggled throughout its history to decide how much doctrinal antagonism it will allow in its ranks, and it has long fielded charges of anti-intellectualism from its critics. So, when LDS leaders in Orlando confronted Twede about his writings in mid-September, he joined a long line of self-fashioned reformers who have clashed with church hierarchy over the years.

    But when Twede took his story to The Daily Beast, he offered a very different angle, one that no reporter could could pass up: Local church leaders, he said, were “acting as agents of HQ leadership in Salt Lake” and trying to excommunicate him for the Romney-bashing on his blog. It was a serious charge, and one that, if true, would undermine the church’s longheld claim to political neutrality — and perhaps even threaten its tax-exempt status.

    But hours after the Daily Beast article published, Twede changed his story, telling the Salt Lake Tribune and the New York Times that politics likely had nothing to do with the church discipline he faced. Then, the next morning, he returned to his original thesis, writing on his personal blog, “I felt in my gut that the Romney pieces were a part of why this happened.””

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/no-the-mormon-church-is-not-excommunicating-romne

  18. peshitta says:

    Lecrae, “Overdose” lyrics

    Im feelin good, forget my feeling tho
    Let’s talk about my fillin, filled with tha Holy Ghost
    And I aint talkin smoke, I’m talkin fire
    I’m tryna shock the world, before they cut my wires
    I’m on that overdose, old me comatose
    See him let me know cause if you did you probably seen a ghost
    Fire in my bones, I’m spittin flames
    Boy that Word of God get at you like a Twitter name
    Truth up in my veins, everyday I need it
    But you don’t hear me tho, you used to different speakers
    They speak death and they stories aint at all the truth,
    They like to think they ballers, they just some foul shooters,
    Im so real 100 percent authentic
    I know how fake feel i dropped him off at the clinic
    Told em he need rehabilitation “gone take him” get him clean
    Met that Triune Light “what’s that?” triple beam

    Oh sorry, I just got off topic. I thought I was just going to beat this dead horse some more.. OK, I’m back now

  19. Ironman1995 says:

    Wow Parkman , you really are gone , let me share just a couple or just one example of not telling the truth, and if a church claims ‘ The only true church ‘ that is a target on the head of the church, or the church is perfect but the people are not, these are brainwashing techniques used over and over.

    2. Look up James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, who wrote The Story of the Latter Day Saints back in 1976 which I was told to purpose while on my mission.

    Allen and Leonard are CES church historians

    3. On page 620 of the book it reads as following ” I t had been church policy since the early days of the Church not to ordain blacks to the priesthood ”

    This is what I believed and taught until Sep 1978 .
    Now fat forward to Sep 2011, and I discover Ejiah Abel , wow, what a shock, Black man who was ordained by Joseph Smith in 1836 in Kirtland Ohio AND went to Utah, served to missions, again 1836 why didn’t Allen and Leonard put him or his son and grandsons who also held the priesthood in the book ?

    Or Walker Lewis ?
    Or why didn’t Allen and Leonard tell how Brigham Young treated Abel like Jackie Robinson, let him serve a mission, why does he first even have the priesthood in Utah ? why didn’t Young allow Abel to be sealed to his wife , yes he was allowed to serve two missions, pay tithing, not allowed in the temple.

    So why did two highly educated church calling men leave out of the book all the whole truth ? and put that statement ?

  20. parkman says:

    “…if a church claims ‘ The only true church ‘ that is a target on the head of the church, or the church is perfect but the people are not, these are brainwashing techniques used over and over.”
    Brainwashing??????????? My experience was that the people who were against my joining the LDS Church were the ones running the brainwashing scam.

    “2. Look up James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, who wrote The Story of the Latter Day Saints back in 1976 which I was told to purpose while on my mission.”
    Not having read the 1976 version of this book I cannot comment on it.

    “Now fat forward to Sep 2011, and I discover Ejiah Abel, wow, what a shock, Black man who was ordained by Joseph Smith in 1836 in Kirtland Ohio…”
    The information was easy enough to learn, I knew about it in the mid 70’s. It was not the Churches fault you never took the time or effort to learn about it.

    “So why did two highly educated church calling men leave out of the book all the whole truth? and put that statement ?”
    Speaking of being brainwashed, the idea that all information must be in all accounts of LDS writings, while allowing your “true teachers” to teach you a part at a time, is a way to control other’s thinking.

  21. Ironman1995 says:

    Wow, Parkman, you are not in Park ,but reverse.
    I said look up Allen and Leonard
    And your crazy comment its not the churches fault, umm, obey the leaders, its not about effort, you are listening to a 8 time Ironman triathlon finisher and when I coach and train people if they make a mistake i would never ever say and blame them 100 percent, even a coach in any sport takes the blame .

    I will tell you now, no problem with effort or learn, in fact its way to easy to see the Mormon church as totally false from start to where it is today, FALSE .

    And Allen and Leonard is but a small example of not teaching the truth, it was THERE fault in leaving out of the book those truths they knew, and I put my faith as a 19 yr new in the church of 2 yrs in these so called church historians , why would I doubt them , or any leader then.

    I blindly trusted , now I can look back on that first love, first kiss, and those first days and yrs in the Mormon church as innocent in my thinking .

    I was prayed upon and used, now tossed aside .

  22. falcon says:

    I think the example of Grant Palmer being disfellowshipped by the LDS Church is very instructive regarding our current topic. The LDS Church simply can’t deal with the truth. Additionally, I’ve been beating the drum over and over again regarding how Mormons think different than the rest of us. Either Mormons are a bunch of lying snakes or they indeed do think differently.
    About Grant Palmer:
    “During this time the infamous Salamander Letter surfaced, challenging the orthodox story of Mormon beginnings, though the letter was eventually found to be a forgery. As an ardent student of LDS history the letter caused Palmer to consider the influences of American folk magic on Joseph Smith’s religious practices.[2] In 1985 Palmer’s research on this issue led him to write and circulate a manuscript called “New York Mormonism” under the pseudonym “Paul Pry, Jr.” which became the first draft of An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins.[5] As he grew uneasy with some aspects of LDS history, Palmer approached his CES supervisor about changing positions to teach adults at the Salt Lake County Jail.”
    “Palmer was disfellowshipped from the LDS Church in December 2004 as a result of his book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, which was skeptical of Mormonism’s claimed origins.”
    Palmer concluded that while he liked many of the teachings of Joseph Smith, “the foundational events in church history are too problematic to ignore”.
    “Palmer has been quoted as saying that he still loves the church, and was pleased he wasn’t excommunicated. He has also stated that he no longer attends church specifically to avoid offending other members with his opinions as well as due to his rejection of standard LDS beliefs.[10]”
    Mormonism and truth? HA!

  23. falcon says:

    Yea you don’t want to run afoul of the LDS machine if you’re looking for the truth.

    “Earlier, the Church took action back in September and October 1993 against six prominent intellectual authors, commonly referred to subsequently as the “September Six”: D.Michael Quinn (historian and former BYU professor), Avraham Gileadi (author of works on Isaiah), Paul Toscano (Salt Lake attorney and author), Lavina Fielding Anderson (editor and writer of the Church-published “Ensign” during most of the 1970s), Maxine Hanks (feminist author), and Lynne Kanavel Whitesides (president of the Mormon Women’s Forum). All were excommunicated except Whitesides, who was disfellowshipped.”

    “More recent excommunicants over intellectual issues include David Wright (1994, for articles questioning the historicity of the Book of Mormon, Michael Barrett (1994, for writing letters to correct news stories about Mormonism), Brent Metcalfe (1994, for the anthology “New Approaches to the Book of Mormon”), Janice Allred (1997, for submitting theological papers to a Sunstone symposium), Margaret Toscano (2000, for writing on feminist issues), Shane LeGrande Whelan (2002, for his book, “More Than One: Plural Marriage, A Sacred Heritage, A Promise For Tomorrow”).”
    http://www.i4m.com/think/grant_palmer.htm

    The LDS Church has to really hustle to keep the fantasy going. Anyone really interested in the truth isn’t going to stay Mormons very long.

  24. Rick B says:

    Parkman,
    You and Shem have said many times, we believe in prayer and we prayed about the truth and it was reveled to us that the LDS church is true. Well how come the LDS church was fooled by Mark Hofmann and the salamander papers? Did the prophets not pray about them? Did they pray and were told they were true?

    Their sadly is so many problems with Mormonism that you simply cannot honestly believe the church is true, But I know not only will you make excuses for the Mark issue, but you will also come back and attack the christian Church by claiming your (Ya Butt) Issues. So much for Prophets praying and praying to know the truth, how did James 1:5 work with the Hofmann issue. What about the verse in D and C that Shem quoted to me 68:2-4? It is really sad that the prophets were fooled, yet you guys keep saying, we have prayer and on going revelation, and the prophet cannot lead the church astray, yet this says other wise.

  25. spartacus says:

    pe[filtered profanity or slur]ta!

    Lecrae!?! That is awesome!

    Lecrae on Mormon Coffee!

    Pe[filtered profanity or slur]ta, I salute you.

    P.S.-I just might be able to see Lecrae et al. at the 116 concert coming up if finances work out, a bit of a long shot but we’ll see. A Lecrae post on Mormon Coffee! Mm!

    As for the topic,

    How many times does an LDS Prophet have to teach something, how many succeeding Prophets have to teach it, Over how long, Believed by how many members for it to be considered Official Doctrine? And if that “official doctrine” that was taught so much and believed by so many over so many years is now thought of as “opinion” or “folklore” or simply referred to by saying “we don’t know the origin of that policy”, how does that not qualify as leading the Church astray?

  26. falcon says:

    spartacus/rick,
    It’s because it doesn’t matter!
    There are all sorts of built in escape clauses not the least of which is “progressive” revelation. It’s “true” for a while. Then more truth and light come forth. The result is improved truth and light and truths that are true in the present.
    I know. It doesn’t make any sense to us. But that’s because we don’t think like Mormons. It’s all faux spirituality. There are claims of all sorts of mystical experiences and appearances by all manner of spirit beings; some Biblical characters. Why in the world would anyone who buys this nonsense be concerned about any amount of consistency in doctrines, teachings and just plain credibility. It’s all easily explained away if someone wants to believe something that makes them feel good. Now mix in the promise of earthly power and authority and a promise of after life deification and what you’ve got is religious dope. That’s why those exiting Mormonism have to go through a process much like treatment for any sort of dependency.
    We’re astounded that anyone would believe this stuff. To cultist the more absurd an idea the more it is embraced. It’s part of the psychology.

  27. parkman says:

    “All were excommunicated except Whitesides, who was disfellowshipped.”
    You just ‘excommunicate’ all non-Trinitarian Christians. You believe you follow the only true way and that you have the right to tell others what they should do and how they should think. I do not understand why you say the leader of another religion (or whatever you are calling your beliefs system now) does not have the same right.

    “Their sadly is so many problems with Mormonism that you simply cannot honestly believe the church is true,…”
    You just told me I am not honest.
    It is a good thing I have gotten a better relationship with Christ since joining His Church, cause them would have been fighting words when I was a Trinitarian. You are forgiven.

    “But I know not only will you make excuses for the Mark issue, but you will also come back and attack the christian Church by claiming your (Ya Butt) Issues. So much for Prophets praying and praying to know the truth…”
    You are trying to make people feel bad about how the Church works. I might even believe you if the New Testament Apostles had not needed correcting from time to time. I hope you have enough knowledge of the Bible to know where it is taught that they needed to be corrected.

    THE TROLL
    (I am called a Troll because I keep asking you to prove that your version of Christianity is true. I believe you should treat your religions teachings and doctrine the same as you treat mine.)

  28. falcon says:

    Yea these Mormon prophets are certainly a true blue bunch and wouldn’t you know it? They hear directly from God. And would they try to hide anything or try to parse their words in such a way as to create confusion and a smoke screen for cover. Here’s one of our all time favorites from that grand master Gordon B. Hinckley.

    “On whether his Church still holds that God the Father was once a man, [President Hinckley] sounded uncertain, ‘I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it…I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.” (GBH, Time Magazine, 4 August 1997)
    “Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?”

    “A: I wouldn’t say that. There was a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” (Don Lattin and GBH, San Francisco Chronicle, 13 April 1997)

    Now either Hinckley wasn’t much of a prophet, he was ignorant, or he was trying to hide something regarding Mormon beliefs. I would say that probably all three would apply.
    Mormon leaders have a history of lying especially when it came to the subject of polygamy. They practiced it while all the while denying it. They lie considerably either through omission or commission. Mormonism is built on the lies of Joseph Smith and (lying) has become a very honored tradition in the LDS religion.

  29. Mike R says:

    I think the main reason that so many LDS are leaving or becoming inactive the last several years
    can be traced to loss of confidence in their hierarchy’s exclusive claims . Claims such as offering
    to provide doctrinal clarity ; to be open about everything in their archives squares with what has
    been taught in church curriculum etc. Though a cottage industry of apologetic efforts have been
    born to address all the public exposure of Mormon doctrines /history still there appears
    to be sizable unrest , an unsettlement that has lead to the feelings of being victims of a broken
    trust . This topic of what is “official” teachings in the Mormon church is a example
    of why many LDS no doubt feel something is amiss because this term seems to be
    unstable, slippery, when the doctrinal offerings by Mormon authorities since 1830 is examined .
    One example is how “official” Church spokesman , Mark Tuttle a few years ago publically states
    that the teachings by past Mormon authorities about Blacks being cursed , and to bolster
    that teaching it was taught that they were less valiant (“fence sitters” ? ) in pre-existence . This
    is now called folklore, and Mr Tuttle stated that it ” never was taught as doctrine
    by the church . ” [ Salt Lake Trib.6-8-2008] . Yet this teaching was taught as doctrine
    by those who claim to be the teachers in the Church. This is one example of something that
    just does’nt ring right to those who are the followers and many think a official apology is due.
    I pray that Mormons will step back and take time to consider Jesus’ warning in Matt 24:11.

  30. falcon says:

    Mike,
    You mentioned the flow out of the LDS church. There’s a couple of reasons for that. For many, the LDS system becomes a drag. The overly controlling nature of the religion, the constant serving the organization, the never ending feeling of worthlessness because one just can’t measure up to the expectations and the desire to be one’s own person drives them out.
    When Mormons lose their fear and their respect for the leadership and the legalism attached to the religion, they walk out the door.
    When a Mormon begins to discover the truth regarding the history of the religion and especially the truth about Joseph Smith, there’s nothing to hold them in the LDS fold.
    Let’s face it, the number of actual temple Mormons in relationship to the number of people on the rolls of the LDS church is very small. The over all retention rate is low in the LDS church and subsequently the number identified as “inactive” is high.
    Whether it’s the drag of the religion or the discovery of the truth, the fact of the matter is that Mormonism has a difficult time holding on to its members.
    Mormons can post here all day long but it’s going to have zero effect on those Mormons who have concluded the LDS church is not true.

  31. Mike R says:

    Falcon, while it may be difficult to know exactly why there has been so many Mormons become
    inactive , I feel it’s because they’ve lost confidence in their leaders . I hope that these rank
    and file members will come to realize that they’re good intentions of wanting to serve God were
    detoured by men into embracing teachings not from Jesus , in short they fell for a imitation
    gospel . The Mormon people are not defective , nor stupid, but they like anyone can be , were
    somehow convinced to follow a prophet which they felt was appointed and supervised by Jesus
    to relay His truths to them . We may be clumsy at times in trying to reason with them to look
    solely at the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and not a church system for their spiritual safety
    but hopefully they will consider what is said by all those here who seek to steer them that way.

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