I can just see the conversation at final judgment:
Jesus: “So, you dismissed the Songs of Solomon as uninspired?”
Joseph: “Yup.”
Jesus: “Because it was a form of religious pornography?”
Joseph: “Yup.”
Jesus: “A little too sexual for you?”
Joseph: “Definitely.”
Jesus: “And THEN you seduced teenage women.”
Joseph: “[Silence]”
Jesus: “And then you married older women to help you convince more teenage women to marry you?”
Joseph: “I thought it would be more proper that way.”
Jesus: “And then you propositioned women like Sarah Pratt after you sent their husbands off on missions?”
Joseph: “I was nice about it.”
Jesus: “And then you publicly slandered them as ‘whores’ after they refused your offers?”
Joseph: “You got me.”
Jesus: “And then you gave your real wife Emma permission to sleep with William Law, in trade for permission to sleep with his wife, Jane Law?”
Joseph: “That didn’t go over well.”
Jesus: “And by the end you married over 33 women?”
Joseph: “Well, actually, the number was more than that if you count…”
Jesus: “Oh, shut up, I know all their names.”
Joseph: “You do? I could hardly keep…”
Jesus: “THE SONGS OF SOLOMON WAS TOO SEXUAL FOR YOU?”
How can you forget to add that Joseph said God would kill his wife if she dif not go along with this.
Oh yea there you go again Aaron with your @nti-Mormon bigoted slander against the prophet. Didn’t you know that Joseph Smith probably knew these women in the pre-existence and there was just some sort of foul-up because of the sinfulness of man that led these women to marry other guys when they had already been Joseph’s (in the P-E).
I scare myself sometimes as to how well I’ve learned to think Mormon.
Anyway what you write above isn’t really factual at all and has all been made up by those who deny the truth of the restoration. (OOPS more Mormon thinking).
It is kind of interesting how twisted guys like Smith can be and ego driven. He criticizes the Bible and at the same time comes up with some convoluted rationale for how he can have sex with as many women as he can convince that it’s “holy” and part of God’s plan.
It is said that the three things that corrupt men is sex, money and power. Smith demonstrated that he was driven by all three.
“And then you gave your real wife Emma permission to sleep with William Law, in trade for permission to sleep with his wife, Jane Law?”
Is this part really true?? I’ve never heard this before. No matter how much I research and study, there’s still stuff that blows my mind! Personally I believe that the sexual nature of the questions being asked of teenagers during interviews with their bishops are more inappropriate than the Songs of Solomon. Just my opinion.
Aaron Shafovaloff and his meeting with Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates
Since you like to make up stories about other people and of heavenly beings, here is one for you.
Aaron walks boldly up to the Pearly Gates for his meeting with Saint Peter at the Day of Reckoning.
Saint Peter: Who’s next?
Aaron: I am.
Saint Peter: Do you believe you belong in Heaven?
Aaron: Yes
Saint Peter: One of my helpers will question you and find you in the Book of Life.
Brother Joseph, here is another one of yours.
parkman,
So sad that you have bought into the lie that Joseph Smith will have ANYTHING to do with us when we get to Heaven. There is only one Way and only One who will judge us worthy and His name is not Joseph, it’s Jesus. You may want to look into that.
John 14:6
It makes me sick how Mormons take this away from Jesus and give it to JS.
Yea, Joseph Smith gets to say who will enter heaven and who will not. Interesting concept! And Mormons know this how?
This is the problem with cults. They get these wild ideas on the basis of absolutely nothing. This is flat out nutty stuff but cultists love it. Again, the more absurd, the more convoluted an idea, the more cultists love it. It’s bizarre thinking but that’s what makes it so appealing to a certain segment of the population.
“There is only one Way and only One who will judge us worthy and His name is not Joseph, it’s Jesus.”; “It makes me sick how Mormons take this away from Jesus and give it to JS.”
‘It makes me sick’ when folks miss use our teachings to make them seem other than what they are. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Prophets are only here to help Jesus.
We just disagree on who has been given authority to help Him. You say it is your teachers, that added your definition of the Trinity to the Bible, that are Jesus’s helpers.
I say it is the Prophets that head up Jesus’s Church on earth that are the true teachers.
“Yea, Joseph Smith gets to say who will enter heaven and who will not. Interesting concept! And Mormons know this how?”
We only say that Joseph Smith is one of the angels that help Jesus with the “paperwork” needed for you to get to Heaven. Why do you try to teach more?
(Of course, you do not agree with us that angels are what we become when we return to Heavenly Father.)
Parkman,
Did you know that Santa Claus is also one of the Mormon gods and when you die he comes and gets you and takes you in his sled to the Celestial North Pole where you meet his goddess wife Mrs. Claus? Yes it’s true. And the elfs? Well they’re really Santa and Mrs. Santa’s spirit off spring.
What I’ve just written above has as much credibility and makes as much sense as Joseph Smith acting as the gate keeper to heaven.
I would not be surprised if the person, who the Santa Claus myth was built on, is now in heaven working with Heavenly Father for the betterment of this world.
I think Aaron did a great job of using absurdity to demonstrate how foolish Mormonism is generally and how clueless and corrupt Joseph Smith was particularly.
This is the stuff of which false prophets and religious entrepreneurs are made of. Smith would run his mouth about all sorts of things and the poor dupes that bought into his fantasy would and do eat it up. Yes, this is typical of cultists once they allow their minds to get flipped with pride fueled by emotion.
God’s Word is clear and plain. The revelation is that mankind is separated from God because of sin. God in His love, mercy and benevolence provided a sacrifice for sin in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God incarnate. He is not only the Savior, but the judge.
Mormonism attacks God’s revealed Word and Jesus Himself and God the Father. Now who would have an interest in doing such a thing? Lucifer’s rebellion began in the heavenlies and continued in the Garden with the temptation and seduction of Adam and Eve.
Every heretical cult attacks God’s revelation on the same points. Mormonism is no different.
Two related articles by Grant Palmer:
Why William and Jane Law left the LDS Church in 1844
Sexual Allegations against Joseph Smith
Unfortunately, the rabbit hole goes very deep with Joseph Smith. I could have added yet another detail: the near-suicidal depression of Orson Pratt, who had to cope with the mess that Joseph Smith caused while Orson was away on his mission.
If my prophet tried to sleep with my wife in the name of God while I was on a mission he sent me on, and then slandered my wife upon returning since she raised a ruckus about it, I would be upset too.
False prophets and idols have a way of deeply letting people down, with horrific, gut-wrenching tragedy.
Aaron,
Thanks for the information. I have to wonder if Joseph Smith were here today in all his glory, how many Mormons would actually follow him? How many Mormons would allow him his 33+ wives, Danites and his avenging angel? How many women would ditch their husbands and become one of his “spiritual” wives? How many would buy into the rock in the hat trick and the supposed scriptures that came from that? How many would sign over their property, money and all that they have (law of consecration)? I think Mormons need to ask themselves about all of this because if Joseph Smith were trying to pull all of this today, people would blow him off as “out there” or crazy.
parkman,
I know exactly what is taught about Joseph Smith and his approval before any of us can enter Heaven. That’s one thing I was taught and one thing I did know about. Sorry to inform you of this, but Jesus doesn’t need our help, not even Joseph Smith’s.
Quotes from LDS leaders:
“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
“This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life” (Marion Romney Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]” (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142).
Jesus isn’t needed for Salvation, only Joseph and the LDS Church.
Kate,
You hit the nail on the head. Mormonism is not about Jesus. It’s about the “system”. Jesus is just part of the system in Mormonism. The system will bring a Mormon to their final reward which is personal deification if that right levers are pulled, the correct buttons pushed, the appropriate hurdles cleared and the special series of hoops jumped through. Mormons don’t even need Jesus if they’d just get their act together and do all of the right things and of course avoid coffee. It’s the coffee that’s tripped-up more Mormons on their quest to become a god.
“We only say that Joseph Smith is one of the angels…..”
Smith is an angel?…Guess he didn’t pass the test to exaltation.
Kate, when you asked. If Joseph Smith was alive today, who would follow him, give over their wives and do all these other things, the really sad part is lots of people would. There are a least 4 Mormons on this blog that would
Another thing that is really sad is, God supposedly told JS to translate the JS version of the Bible. Yet in the J.S.T of the Bible it says that it is not finished and God supposedly to JS to finish it and it would be finished before his death. Yet it seems according to the J.S.T, that it was not finished, so this either makes God a liar or JS a false prophet.
Add to that, Most Mormons do not use the J.S.T and reject it as inspired and the ones that do use it, only use a few select verses.
Rick,
Quite a profound statement regarding our current Mormon posters and their willingness to turn their time, treasure and wives over to the prophet. I remember asking Ralph a couple of years ago if he would kill or steal on orders from the prophet and he said he would. That was a serious wake-up call for me.
David Koresh had his number two in command turn his wife over to him (Koresh) and he impregnated her. It’s all about sex, power and money with these false prophets. It’s amazing what people will do when they give themselves over to these deceivers and their lies. It’s diabolic and Satanic and these followers jump into it full in.
This is standard practice within these false prophet driven sects:
“One of the most shocking doctrines of the Branch Davidian leader, David Koresh, was his sexual demands placed upon the women and young girls in his group. According to USA Today, “While the men live in what some former cultists have described as an anguished celibacy, Koresh freely takes whatever woman catches his fancy, sometimes girls as young as 12” (4 March 1993, p. 3A).
“Time magazine quotes former members, including Marc Breault who had been associated with the group in the late 1980’s as saying, “He (Koresh) was fixated with sex and with a taste for younger girls. He began to teach that all the women in the world belonged to him and only he had the right to procreate.”
“Elizabeth Barabya, who had also been a member of the commune, explained Koresh’s twisted reasoning on this point. “God believed it was necessary to send him (Koresh) down to be a sinful Jesus so that, when he stood in judgement of sinners on Judgement Day, he would have experience of all sin and degradation” (15 March 1993, p. 38).”
“One leader which shares many similarities with David Koresh – Jim Jones of Jonestown. “Jones’s sexual gluttony became another focal point. The egotistical leader insisted he only had sex with his followers to satisfy their needs. He presented himself as the `only legitimate object of sexual desire'” (People’s Temple Peoples Tomb, Phil Kerns, p. 158).
“Also, before Rev. Moon arrived in America, his followers say he taught a type of ritual sex. “Since Moon was a pure man, sex with him was supposed to purify both body and soul, and marriages of other cultists were in fact invalid until the wives slept with Moon”(The Spirit of Sun Myung Moon, Zola Levitt, p. 13).
http://www.watchman.org/cults/sex.htm
Joseph Smith was no different than the false prophets cited above. These guys always spiritualize sex in order to justify their voracious appetites and lust. But it’s also about power and control. If a cult leader can get followers to acquiesce and surrender control over their bodies to him, he’s home free-so to speak. He can control every aspect of their lives. It’s lust, domination and control.
Guys like Smith are masters of manipulation and once they have people believing they are receiving messages from God, it really is turn off the lights the party’s over.
In Smith’s case he drew from the OT and then developed the notion of men becoming gods and as part of the process, having many wives. In fact he told one of his prospective wives that an angel with a sword appeared to him and threatened him with death unless he began practicing the “principle”.
It’s never a good idea to out source our spirituality to a religious system or person. Maintaining personal control is not an option, it’s a necessity.
Mormons out source their souls to a religious system that they believe is true and will lead them to a path of personal deification. It’s all fools gold!
Rick,
You’re right, people would still follow him but not as many would. I’ve told members of my LDS family that if they want to know what Joseph Smith was like, just take a look at Warren Jeffs. His polygamy and marrying young girls is repulsive to my family, yet Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other LDS leaders were so righteous to take all of that on. The LDS need to look at the first 5 or so prophets of the FLDS church, they are the same as theirs. Shawn McCraney recently had Christopher Nemelka on his program and even he has followers. I guess it’s all in what people want to believe. As far as the J.S.T of the Bible, I didn’t know that existed. I really wasn’t a well informed Mormon. I just followed along with everything and didn’t really study because I trusted that I wasn’t being led astray by the prophet/leaders and lessons at church. What a shock it was to open up a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and actually read and study it. Falcon is right, Mormonism cannot be found in the Bible.
“Jesus isn’t needed for Salvation, only Joseph and the LDS Church.”
Your idea that Joseph Smith is placed above Jesus Christ in the LDS Church does not come from the teachings and doctrine of the Church. I have seen many get caught up in the idea by following some very twisted ideas about what we teach.
Your references do not back up you belief of what the LDS Church teaches about Joseph Smiths position. All of your references refer to Joseph Smith being someone who is called of Christ to help Him administer His Kingdom. As for Jesus not using helpers, you somehow missed the Recording Angels who help Christ track what you do.
The idea of Joseph Smith MARRYING other men’s wives almost caused me to lose my faith in God’s restored Church. This is one subject that does not do well in the short sound bites afforded in blogs. After much study from both sides, I have gotten enough answers to know your take on the history is not what happened. Like many answers that have not come at once, I have faith that Heavenly Father will some day supply the rest of the answers.
parkman,
You should read my 2 LARGEfamily’s hardback, 2 large volumn history! What I have said about polygamy and Joseph Smith are exactly true. Written by my family members who lived it. Of course they thought they were so valiant to take all of that on. Two of my great, great, great, great, great aunts were married to Joseph Smith (one pretty much against her will) and he did stay with her in an upstairs bedroom of her brother’s house “as man and wife” so that you don’t misrepresent and say that she was only a “spiritual” wife.
parkman,
Oops hit send…. Their mother was sealed to Father Smith, (Joseph’s father) and there is no mention of a divorce from her husband whom she had 18 children with. He didn’t join the church so she married a polygamist. Not to worry though, generations later the family was given permission from a General Authority to have her sealed to her first husband, what about father Smith? Wasn’t he supposed to have her for eternity to populate his world? What about my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather? What if he didn’t “accept” it over there? Where does that leave her? It’s all so twisted! I learned alot about Joseph Smith from the written history of my family members who lived it. My take on it is exactly how it happened.
parkman,
“As for Jesus not using helpers, you somehow missed the Recording Angels who help Christ track what you do.”
Joseph Smith’s an angel? He isn’t a god? He missed exaltation and is just an angel? Tell me what you are striving for as a Mormon man then? LDS leaders have made it very clear that no one will obtain Salvation without the consent of Joseph Smith. I was taught this growing up as well. JS has to approve your Salvation. I wonder…..is that before or after Jesus does??
“Joseph Smith’s an angel? He isn’t a god? He missed exaltation and is just an angel?”
Ya, it does get confusing when Heavenly Father’s children who have been through this life are sometimes referred to as “Gods” and sometimes as “Angels”. It took me a few years before I understood it because I came from a Protestant background and did not give up my Protestant understandings completely at first.
> “The idea of Joseph Smith MARRYING other men’s wives almost caused me to lose my faith in God’s restored Church. This is one subject that does not do well in the short sound bites afforded in blogs.”
Or in massive books. The more details, the uglier Smith’s life looks.
But hey, “Once you get past the gag reflex, a whole world of possibilities opens up.” (Ratatouille)
Allowing your conscience to be lulled to a callous sleep is not something to celebrate.
Parkman said: “Ya, it does get confusing when Heavenly Father’s children who have been through this life are sometimes referred to as “Gods” and sometimes as “Angels”.”
Brigham Young said:
“Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through…They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods, even the sons of God. Human beings that pertain to this world, who do not magnify or are not capable of magnifying their high calling in the Priesthood and receive crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives, will also, when they again receive their bodies, become angels and will receive a glory” (Journal of Discourses, 9:102)
….sometimes referred to as angels and other times as Gods is hardly what the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator proclaimed. Was he leading the church astray or are you simply wrong?
Stanley2 said <….sometimes referred to as angels and other times as Gods is hardly what the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator proclaimed. Was he leading the church astray or are you simply wrong?
I vote for both, the prophet is leading the church astray and parkman is wrong.
“Brigham Young said:…”
If I were to take your sound bite as the complete and only information on the subject of who are called angels, I would believe you.
An example:
We know that the Angel Moroni had lived on this earth as the man named Moroni.
parkman,
Brigham Young said “Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through…They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods”
So according to this, the angel Moroni must not have “magnified the Priesthood in that degree that many others have done who have become Gods.” My question to you is, what has become of Joseph Smith? Is he simply an angel helping out Jesus, or is he a God? Did he magnify the priesthood in that degree that many others have done who have become Gods?
“So according to this,…”
You seem to believe that God can only uses a single sound bite to get across a complete truth. I would suggest you visit some of the Bible only teachings (there are many on the web) and see how often God builds a truth by having one Prophet say something and then having another Prophet add a little more to the original information. If your first assumption is correct, then many mainstream Christian teachings are false. For that matter, it took men many years after the cannon of the Bible was closed to add the “final and definitive” definition of “Trinity” to be given to you.
“My question to you is, what has become of Joseph Smith?
Since God does not work on your stated idea of sound bite authority, I would say Brother Joseph is in position to help you progress to the next life with the most demanding job you are capable of handling.
Kate,
What really sad is, You mention the Angel Moroni. Now why is this sad? Well because Before he was the angel Moroni he was the angel Nephi.
I dont care what LDS say, you start changing the name of the angel that gave the plates, this shows LDS dont know what they believe, and their story from day one till know keeps changing. How can LDS be true if these changes keep taking place?