Mormons seeking to prove that Latter-day Saints (and the LDS Church) are Christian often resort to a certain apologetic argument that is woefully lacking in substance; nevertheless it continues to be bandied about with reckless abandon. LDS Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley uses this argument, and it is unendingly repeated by Mormons in manifold venues. Here it is, from a recent letter-to-the-editor in a Long Beach, California paper:
“It is ironic that many state that ‘Mormons are not Christian,’ when the name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Surely there are better ways to defend the nature of the LDS Church.
William Shakespeare put these words into the mouth of Juliet: “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” Juliet told Romeo that what something is called does not necessarily correspond to what something actually is.
Some real-life examples for the sake of illustration:
• Mormon Coffee is neither Mormon nor a beverage.
• Mitt Romney is not, in reality, something to be worn on the hand.
• A Ford Taurus is not a constellation comprised of star clusters including the Hyades and the Pleiades.
• Long Island Iced Tea contains vodka, tequila, rum, gin and triple sec; but, in fact, it is not, nor does it contain, tea.
• Los Angeles, often called the City of Angels, has a population of approximately 4 million people; it is not truly populated by celestial beings.
• The World Church of Jesus is Satan, founded in Detroit, Michigan in 1993 by Thayalan Reddy, is not a Christian church despite the name of Jesus in its title.
Mormon Fundamentalist groups offend the LDS Church by calling themselves “Mormons.” The LDS Church clarified in a commentary on its web site:
“Polygamist groups in Utah, Arizona or Texas have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To refer to them as ‘Mormon’ is inaccurate.
“Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…
“When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, terms such as those given in the first paragraph above are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: ‘The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other … churches that resulted from the split after (Joseph) Smith’s death.'”
The LDS Church recognizes that Mormon Fundamentalists are not actually Mormons even though they are called by that name.
So let’s put this silly “We’re Christians because our Church is called The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints” argument to rest. Instead, let’s talk about who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for us.
Another Example I use is my What If example. I say, What if I put on an elder badge saying I am elder Beaudin of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, but the teach the gospel I believe that says the BoM is false, Jesus was/is God, not an exalted man, the Trinity, Satan is a created being not the brother of lucifer, Grace alone, Etc. Would the LDS like me saying I am a Mormon? No they would want me to stop, yet mant LDS on here admit they do teach a different Gospel, yet they claim they are Christian.
So why is it if I teach the gospel I laid out, and put on the elder badge, I would be told to stop, yet you guys do the exact same thing. Rick b
There was a very good, very thorough article listed in the “coffee beans” section a while ago discussing this very issue. Basically, it said that yes, LDS could consider themselves to fall under the very broad umbrella of “Christianity” in that they do worship a Jesus Christ. However, under that very broad umbrella, there is a very diverse group, and it is important to be specific in pointing out the difference in theologies, and the right of the person defining the term to specify what does and does not constitute adherence to a set of beliefs. For example, I can safely say that LDS are not Christian in the same sense that I am Christian, because we believe different things about the nature of Christ, who he was and claimed to be, etc.
Seems I said this before, but it looks like the BoM does not teach that we both can be Christian if we do not believe the same way.
Read 1 Nephi 14:10
Then it seems the Prophets from old had a different view as to who or what a Christian was/is.
B Young: with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world (J.o.D 8:199). 3rd president John Taylor (B.Y. quotes Mr Taylor) Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth (J.o.D 6:176). Heber C. Kimball Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth (J.o.D 5:89).
I bet if these guys were alive today, they would not believe that the brand of Mormonism is they same Mormonism they taught or founded back in the 1800’s Rick b
Rick,
You are truly messed-up. Stop quoting the J.o.D. Nothing in that book counts. It’s just the Mormon prophets taking part in what I call “blue sky”. They’re just supposing and talking off the top of their creative minds. Prophethood can be a very seductive thing. There are no checks and balences in the Mormon system. You know, when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done. I’m sure these folks could come up with a scenario where by they are Buddist if it served their purposes.
A big reason why Mormons use the ‘name’ defense for proving Mormonism is Christian is due in large part to a scripture in the BoM.
In the words of Jesus, “And how be it my church save it be called in my name…if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel. Very I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel, therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you…then will the Father show forth his works in it” (3 Nephi 27:8-9).
These scriptures clarify the following conditions of a church being “Christian:”
1) Named after Jesus
2) Built upon Jesus’ Gospel
3) Manifests fruits of the Spirit (works of the Father)
Mormons claim all three. They also have very substantiated evidence for all three. First, certainly it is named after Jesus. Second, all their doctrines can be substantiated by scriptures in the Bible, and those Mormon missionaries will be the first to explain them to you in plainness. (Note: DOCTRINE is defined as teachings taught and accepted by modern Prophets and apostles. God and Jesus’ multiple wives, Mary’s literal conception, et cetera are not considered ‘doctrines’ of the Church, whether many of its members may or may not believe them.) Third, Mormons are by and large very great and nice people. They certainly have the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, and faith.
I can certainly understand why Mormons claim and wish to be Christian.
RickB, Your example of putting on an Elders’ badge and going out and teaching against the LDS church is not appropriate because you do not represent all of Christianity, you only represent the Evengelical side of Christianity. In fact, you only represent your values and beliefs of Christianity which are different to others’ beliefs, and in some cases like Catholic and Anglican, are very different. So your argument falls down there.
As Daniel said, there is a broad spectrum/base of faiths that profess to believe in Jesus as The Christ. The original meaning of Christian in the Bible was those who followed Jesus and/or His apostles. It was a term given by non-believers and was used to segregate those who did believe. When it came to persecution and arrests, etc, there was no distinction given by the ‘authorities’ between those who believed in a Trinity and those who believed in the Godhead like the LDS church. All who professed Jesus as The Christ were taken regardless. So in this meaning from the Bible, the LDS church is Christian and so to are all other churches that profess Jesus to be The Christ. But it is the responsibility of all of these religions to delineate their differences – which the LDS do as we teach about the Godhead, BoM, living prophets, etc.
I guess (NOTE my guess, I don’t know for sure and I cannot speak for the church) that the church is trying to be included as Christian so people know we do believe in Jesus as the Christ and do not think of us as a different religion like Islam or Hinduism, etc.
Me however, I don’t care what you want to call me, I know I believe in Jesus as my Saviour and I am following His example and hoping to live with Him and Heavenly Father again after this life.
Ralph, the problem with that statement is a Hindu can profess that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ, and as such a God without breaking any Hindu practice of belief, should this Hindu man be considered a Christian? According to your definition there is no reason that he shouldn’t be, though clearly neither you nor I would agree that he was a Christian. This is what we are trying to say about the LDS and Christianity. There are certain things that all Christians believe, the Trinity being one of those things.
Now on the responsibility of all religions to delineate their differences, I agree 100% but the problem with this is that some groups, LDS included, do not want to broadcast their beliefs fully, because they at times are often embarrassing. So they often hide their doctrine behind emotional arguments such as the “we believe that families will be together forever,” leaving out the “so long as every member in the family is temple recommended, sealed to one another, endures to the end, is exalted to the celestial kingdom, and chooses to stay with their parents according to the flesh in the next life instead of starting their own planet for their own spirit children.”
I wish LDS authorities would state doctrinal differences like this:
“We believe that we are the offspring of two parent gods, and hope to one day become gods ourselves. This was made possible by Jesus our older brother’s defeat of Satan, also our brother, and sin. He is the only Son of God according to the flesh, by this we mean he was birthed due to a physical union between God the Father, who we call Elohim, and his spirit child Mary. Thus we follow after him so that we might be like him in the fullest sense, as gods of our own worlds. We also believe in living prophets who can correct any scripture and nullify the statements of former prophets because God is eternally progressing himself. Oh and that all other Christian churches are wrong in their beliefs. Hope that clears things up.”
I highly recommend a book – ‘Kingdom of the Cults’ by Dr. Walter Martin for those who are interested in the answers to many of these questions. Dr. Martin did extensive research and used Mormon documents (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenents (all of which which Mormons claim to be scriptures) to determine whether Mormonism is a cult. Dr. Martin’s definition of a cult is a good one (a group that denies 1) the divinity of Christ (equality with God), 2) denies the all-sufficiency of Christ’s death on the cross as atonement for sin and 3) (I can’t remember right now and my copy of the book is out on loan – I’ll get back to you))
Iamse7en,
I’ve been waiting for a Mormon to tell me where in the NT I can find the following:
1. Activation of the priesthood in the NT Christian Church as directed by Jesus.
2. The concept that God is a glorified man and that current men can become gods.
Alright, it is interesting how many of the commenters feel that they have so great a grasp on LDS doctrines. In fact you feel you know so much about it all that you feel it necessary to dictate to us how we teach our gospel.
You deny the whole premise of our church yet you take it upon yourselves to say what we teach.
Listen, and I will try to make it sound simple for those who don’t quite get it. We teach our gospel in a way as we set the basic ordinances and principles that need to be known in order to receive all things from God. We do so in a manner as to give people a chance to understand what we teach on peice at a time. I mean come on, did Jesus just sit down and in one day teach everything all at once. No He took his time, he used simple teachings such as parables so people could understand based on their levels. For our church lessons, we study the scriptures. Unless you care to join our church and, if you are called to the position that you presume, the whole thing about which you tell us to do is nonsense.
And, on a side note, let me get see if I am right or wrong. Is this a forum to understand LDS beliefs or a forum to counter any point in a way as to disregard anything that any believing member of my faith may say about our beliefs? It seems so much the latter. As much as what we say may not trump your personal belief, that feeling is the same on my side as well. So if you truly wish to try to understand what we believe in please say so. If not, well than I wish you good luck on your journey.
Jacob5,
Why can’t you tell people up front that you believe that your god is a glorified man and that you hope to be a god also some day, that this doctrine can’t be found in the Bible but that it was “revealed” to a man that claimed to be a prophet? Despite my attempts on this site to have Mormons show me where the NT Church practiced polygamy (as your founder practiced), had a “priesthood”, and endorsed the notion of progression to godhood,I just get the Mormon talking points with no Biblical references. The reason you can’t be considered Christian is because there are a set of foundational beliefs that define what “Christian” is. Those beliefs have been passed down from the NT Church, and are found in the Bible. Joseph Smith saw fit to start a religion that didn’t comply with those basic Christian standards of belief. To now call it “Christian” is not accurate and can be seen as a deceptive practice. It’s like telling someone you want to sell them a car when what you are really selling is a tractor.
Falcon, I’m sorry I quoted the LDS prophets. The LDS tell us we need to back up what we say, I use the Prophets since the LDS tell us the beliefes they have cannot be found in the Bible but are given from LDS prophets getting visions.
Then when I read LDS sources like the JoD and quote the prophets, LDS like Jacob come along and tell us we do not understand their Doctrine and we must learn little by little. What is the point of the LDS prophets putting books out that state what they taught or believe, if we are told it is not good enough?
Jacob, as I said before and falcon is saying, you say Step by step, Jesus did not put out tons of info for his followers. I view that as a cop out. Most people on this site are far beyond the simple basics of LDS teachings. We have read and studied your teachings, the least you can do is be a little more honest and say, yes your correct we believe this teaching, or say, no you not correct and here is why.
We ask you guys, do you teach and believe this or that, instead of getting a yes we do or no we dont reply, we get, that is a deep Doctrine and you must learn other things first. I think it is more a matter of, either your n ot being honest like we seem to think, or you need to better understand your beliefes. Rick b
Rick,
I’ve come to learn, by interacting on this site, that our Mormon friends use the word “understand” interchangably with “believe”. The Mormon doctrine is not all that complicated. Aspects of it can be found in other philosophical and religious forms. But because we don’t “believe” it, we are said (by our Mormon friends) not to “understand” it. Hence if we “understood” it we would “believe” it. So given that point-of-view, we will never understand it and are not qualified to comment on it. Anyway, I do know Christianity, and when I compare it with Mormonism, it’s not the same thing.
Falcon, here I go again, quoting the LDS prophets.
In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question.
Now according to BY, if he believes the Bible as it is, Then I believe we could apply that to other LDS teachings. I have said before LDS redefine meanings, God said I am eternal, hell is everlasting and eternal. Yet when I point out God the father was not once man who progressed first because the Bible does not teach it, also God the father states I am eternal.
Now according to LDS eternal Really means He had a beginning, yet the dictionary claims Eternal is without a beginning. You name it, we disagree because you guys when we take something at face value and point out the LDS teach… then all of a sudden the meaning is twisted to fit LDS definition so as to mean something different.
Now here is a nice little bit of things to think about.
If Jesus taught ALL things why are we missing at least 12 major lds doctrine from the BOM.
Over all Falcon, I do agree with you. Rick b
Jacob5 wrote:
And, on a side note, let me get see if I am right or wrong. Is this a forum to understand LDS beliefs or a forum to counter any point in a way as to disregard anything that any believing member of my faith may say about our beliefs?
Jacob5, this blog and comment section is about bringing LDS beliefs to the light of day. It is a fair argument to say many on this blog understand your beliefs simply do not believe them, just as many people understand Ptolemy’s universe, but do not believe it. It is not that we want to disregard your personal beliefs, it is just that we want you to be honest about all of them, not hiding behind the guises of “deep doctrine” and mil before meat” and know what it is your church truly teaches if it differs from something you personally believe. We truly do care for you and pray that God might grant you repentance, and you will know what it is to truly be at peace with God. Therefore please tell me if something in my quote from January 14th on this page is incorrect according to LDS Doctrine with LDS sources (Church manuals, Scriptures, statements of Apostles and/or Prophets) and I will apologize for not correctly stating LDS Doctrine. However taking into account the words of the LDS Prophets, Apostles, uniquely LDS Scriptures, and Church manuals I think my case will be stronger that your church does teach every doctrine I have presented on that date.
Lautensack
Lautensack, you asked to be shown some incorrect comments from your last post, well here they are –
The reasons, if you wish to believe them, are –
1) We are teaching the general public, in public relation circumstances, just the basics. It is so they can accept what is the basic necessity for salvation before hopefully joining our church. All of the other concepts (ie Heavenly Father has a physical body, we have a Heavenly Mother, we lived before this life, Jesus and Lucifer are our brothers, etc) are taught when they visit church including when they are investigators (see chapters 1 and 2 in “Gospel Principles”). So they are not embarrassing, just time and place come into relevance.
2) We will live as forever families, but we do not know or understand how this will be. It does not automatically mean that the children will live at home with their parents. But we on this earth when a child gets married and moves out of home, they are still considered family with their parents, so I guess it could be similar in the next life.
3) I know this one is very contentious, but I still say that we do not know how the conception of Jesus came about. In all of the ‘evidence’ given there is nothing saying that a physical union occurred. But that’s another argument that has been rehashed many times, so I’m just putting in that I believe it’s wrong.
RickB, I know most of you on this site have studied the LDS faith, but when Jacob was talking about milk before meat, he was talking about teaching people who do not know much about the LDS church, not the people on this site. So yes, Jacob’s argument can still stand when it comes to teaching this gospel to people
Mormons claim to be Christian because Joseph Smith restored the doctrines and practices of the Apostles. My question for our Mormon contributors is and has been, where/how did Joseph Smith come to understand that the Apostles practiced or believed in polygamy, the priesthood and the god as glorified man and progression of man to godhood? I read the Bible everyday and have yet to run across any of these things. Now this is not a trick question.
Well, Falcon, first. We do not believe we are Christian because “Joseph Smith restored the doctrines and practices of the Apostles.” We believe we are christian because we believe in Christ and His teachings. We believe we are christian because we believe that following His teachings. Another thing, just ast we do not currently practice plural marriage today, there were other moments in time when plural marriage was not practiced. However, Jacob had two wives and two concubines. David had many wives. In fact was it not through Bathsheba that eventually led to the birth of Mary. Wasn’t it that Bathsheba was not David’s first wife. So, in the bible it does show the existence of plural wives. Were Abraham, and Jacob sinners in that regard?
As for Lautensack; there is a great deal of the pretext that you use. Ralph gets it right. Now, mind you I am not a direct authority on this. There are means of searching through these items more surely. For the whole deal, you have http://www.lds.org, and no one can say they have read everything that that site offers. Then for the more basic, clear doctrines there is http://www.mormon.org. This is the basics for our belief.
Now when I say pretext, I mean they way to come acrose does, in a way sound demeaning. You take it upon yourself to dictate how we present our doctrine, yet you deny our teachings. I do not feign to dictate to anyone else what their doctrines might be because as I do not have their faith I would get it wrong.
We do not openly speak about deeper things in general circumstances because we do feel that they should be reserved for those who want to earnestly seek out the deeper mysteries of God in a reverent environment with the words of the scriptures and modern revelation as well as with the influence of the Holy Ghost to guide us. As I have stated at other instences we study the basics of the gospel, and when we feel moved to do so, we further study deeper truths.
Ralph, please pursue something which you or your religion is worthy for. The Mormon leaders framed so much “speculations” of Christ, then stole a great deal of theology from Christians. The Mormons sing “Amazing Grace” but it is hard to get that song to the Mormon Hymn book.
The Hindus, Muslims and many religions of the world accept Jesus as a God. They have never claimed they are Christians. In India, the Hindus go to Christian Churches, and pray to Jesus. They dont claim they are Christians. They are still Hindus who still accept the divinity of Jesus. Please analyze your situation, and go for something you are worthy for.
If the Mormons want to be called “Christians”, straighten out the “speculations” the Mormon leaders have written about Jesus. It is a shame to be called you are a Christian with all the speculations you carry as a baggage. Either tell YES to the speculations and live as a Mormon or tell NO to the speculations and become a Christian. You can’t keep your feet in two boats.
Jacob5 said “We believe we are christian because we believe that following His teachings.”
To Jacob5: Where does Jesus in the Holy Bible teaches you to practice polygamy?
RickB, Did you read further into the chapter of 3 Nephi 26? If you did, then here is a verse that you missed which answers your question about why there are at least 12 “major doctrines” missing from the Book of Mormon.
3 Nephi 26:6-8 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people
This sentiment is echoed in a few other places in the Book of Mormon – W of M 1: 5. 3 Ne. 5: 8 (8-11). Ether 15: 33.
The scriptures give us the basics and God reveals to us deeper doctrine through the prophets when we are ready to receive it.
As for your other comment about God being Eternal – we also believe that He is Eternal. In fact we believe that everyone is Eternal. We started out as intelligences which were then formed into spirits and then we were born onto this earth. Our teachings say that intelligences can neither be created nor destroyed. So intelligences have been around forever and because they are ‘alive’ within us (it is what defines our core character) it will be alive forever. Since LDS claim we are ‘gods in embryo’ we have that trait through the rest of our lives – like a human embryo is always human. So if we achieve godhood then we can say that we were gods forever because our character has not changed. Those who do not achieve godhood did not achieve their allotted potential but can still say they existed from forever to forever. So yes, we believe that God is eternal and we do call Him our Eternal Father as well as our Heavenly Father.
Pallathu, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and a good man, not a God. At least that is what my work compatriot has told me and he’s from Jordan.
Ralph, would you call a Muslim a Christian by taking your argument that Jesus was just a prophet for them?
Jacob,
“Another thing, just ast we do not currently practice plural marriage today, there were other moments in time when plural marriage was not practiced. However, Jacob had two wives and two concubines. David had many wives. In fact was it not through Bathsheba that eventually led to the birth of Mary. Wasn’t it that Bathsheba was not David’s first wife. So, in the bible it does show the existence of plural wives. Were Abraham, and Jacob sinners in that regard?”
There is a difference between the Bible describing an event and commanding it. People commit all manner of sins in the Bible, but because the events are recorded does not mean that they are not sinful. By that logic you could say it is OK to murder since Cain murdered Abel and it is recorded in the Bible.
Jacob5,
Someone can follow Christ’s teachings and not be a Christian. You gave the standard polygamy answer, but I’ve been asking you specifically about the NT. I’ve had other Mormons say that they are Christians because Joseph Smith restored the original teachings and practices of the Apostles. Now you’re telling me that Joseph Smith didn’t do that? I’m still waiting for a Mormon to tell me where in the NT I can find the teachings on plural marrage, restoration of the priesthood, progression of man to godhood and god being a glorified man. Everytime I ask these questions, and I have asked often, I get taken down a path about early OT patriarchs and little else. Here’s the bottom line, these teachings can’t be found in the NT. Joseph Smith pulled them out of thin air and said God revealed them to him. Anyone who would use NT standards to test the revelations of Joseph Smith would reject the revelations.
Arthur, it is clearly evident that the LDS Church and its members can’t figure out what is sin and what is holiness. They keep the speculations of Christ, at the same time claim to be a Christians because they believe in what the other Christians believe ALSO.
Jacob, read the ten commandments with a pure heart and help of Holy Spirit. You should be feel ashamed of defending polygamy as something God commanded or allowed.
Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to say that I became a member of the LDS church in 1991. Temple worthy and all that.
I believe that us converts were/are not told everything up front because there is to much for the LDS church to tell us (The Mormon Doctrine book is HUGE). It takes years and years before you start to get the “bigger picture”. Recently “Kolob” was mentioned on one of these sites and it was like “hay look it up” so I did…… and there it was. Maybe I didn’t pay good enough attention in GD class…… but I don’t remember Kolob ever being taught…… yet there it is in the BoM. I was shocked.
I love the LDS church, I love all of it. Yet, to me that simple little thing has changed everything for me.
I believe that the LDS people have so many beliefs that they have to keep straight in their own hearts. And then to be asked to explain them.
Danielle
Ralph,
Number 1 was of course my opinion and not an LDS Doctrine, however according to your own words you do not cover the Doctrine of God in public relations, and people that hide their beliefs are often either embarrassed of them or afraid of criticism. Sorry about the confusion.
Number 2) This is your opinion and not what is presented to the general investigator.
Number 3) I am simply going to direct you to the following portion of the MRM site, because they have put together a large group of references that contradict your claim that no evidence of a physical union took place. http://www.mrm.org/topics/jesus-christ/redefining-virgin-birth-mormonisms-teaching-concerning-natural-conception-jesus
Jacob5,
Jesus said, “No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.” Therefore your answer is a cop out answer stating that you don’t discuss “deeper doctrines” seems as though you are hiding something. Often the questioners don’t “believe” these “deeper doctrines” therefore they must not be able to “understand” them, so you keep them secret. Paul tells us, “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.” As for my “dictation” on how you present your doctrine, I think I may agree that I do, by that I mean I want you to present your doctrine truthfully, not hiding it or saying you don’t “believe” therefore you cannot “understand,” or saying unbelievers do not address the doctrines with “reverence,” because a Hindu and a Christian can speak about “deep doctrines” of each others faith without being accused irreverence, however ….
Cont…
Cont…
A Christian and a Mormon cannot do this because if the Christian brings up a Mormon Doctrine that makes the Church look bad, or portrayes the Church in a bad light, the Mormon must simply cry “that’s sacred (not secret)”, and if the Christian persues the topic they are said to be irreverent of the Mormon’s faith. Thus the only way for a Christian to have a theological conversation with a Mormon is to compromise the Christian faith or for the Mormon to actually admit that their Church does teach the things that the Christian brough up, or correct the Christian’s misunderstanding using reputable sources. Unfortunately the members of the LDS Church who will do this are few and far between.
Danielle,
One question where in the Book of Mormon is Kolob ever mentioned? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not, it is only found in the Book of Abraham.(Abr. 3:3ff; 5:13) I invite you to research the Book of Abraham in more detail.
See: http://irr.org/mit/Book-of-Abraham-page.html
Lautensack
P.S. sorry for the back to back post.
Wow. Really good play at things. So let me see how this works, an acusation is made about your church. You church doesn’t believe such and such or it does believe such and such based on “insert quote here”. We then make a statement of our faith reguarding said statement. Then an automatic gainsaying is given where we either don’t answer exactly they way you want to hear it. Or you bring up a scripture using your own interpretations to say we are wrong (scriptures we may interpret differently). When we explain how things are done in our church you say that we should follow how you say we should do it or else we are wrong (this is mostly based on you traditional ideals). When we bear our testimony of our faith you disregard it or say that it is emotional or sensational. Or that we don’t totally unload every single item spoken of by our church leaders or its members(of which I haven’t even read every single page, and I doubt very many people have) onto anyone who may have any interest in our faith, simply because you say we have to. Then you lay out all these arguments in a way as to say, “see I knew you were wrong” in not so few words. This is proven by the fact that you make these statements of “prove this by only using the New Testament only”, etc. I have seen countless statement of those of my faith giving their hearts out as to their belief and for everyone of those statements I see mostly disparaging statements or automatic dismissal. If ever a point is conceded it is of the utmost minute amount.
I accept that you have your faith. I can even accept that you may call yourself christian. I also accept that we have different beliefs about what the truth is. I will admit that I do not have a perfect knowledge of all things. But I accept that as well. I do say that my faith is enough for me.
It has guided me through some of the hardest times in my life, not because of some blind faith, but it guides me through the path that I do not always see at times.
So, I guess in my closing statement to this forum I will say; I am a child of God. He sent me to Earth so that I may gain the experiences I need in this life. He blessed me with the ability to know good from evil. He knew that I would not always chose good and that I would commit sin. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to make a sacrifice for all mankind so that through faith in Jesus, repentance, baptism and by the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and maintaining a good life of following his commandments and repenting when I have sinned I can recieve redemption. I also believe that I should get married and raise children (if possible, mortality may rob us of certain capabilities).
I believe that my church is the church of Jesus Christ in the modern. I believe he has called prophets in our day starting with Joseph Smith Jr. so that we may yet learn more about our faith. I believe in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, and I yet believe that we may still receive revelation. I do strive to study more about my faith through experience, study, and prayer. This is my faith and belief and it will not change, because this is not simply based on the ideas of men or their simple philosophies but of what I have recieved in personal communion with my Lord. I have tested the word of the prophets and I have found them to be a good fruit.
Make what you will of my words, but to me they are truer than anything any man can show me.
I say this in the name of my Savior, Jesus Christ, amen.
Jacob, I will give more respect for your pages of reply after you reply to my post. You are trying to be false witness to the so called “truth” by leaving the real truth aside.
Sorry Jacob5,
I don’t intend to demean your testimony, but having a testimony about something doesn’t make it true. A testimony can be deeply felt. It can be your reality. It can be true for you. But that doesn’t make Mormonism true. Compare the doctrine of the Mormon Church with Biblical Christianity. The doctrines are not the same. One is true and one is false. They can’t both be true. But once someone accepts that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, all bets are off. Everything from that point will be accepted as true, believed and defending. Most certainly when it’s combined with deep emotion.
Hi Lautensack
Sorry I knew that about the Book of Abraham is where you find the Kolob mention. To me when I say “BoM” it is EVERYTHING in it. Either way it is still part of the Mormon “thing”. Which has nothing to do with the Christian belief systom. I love the church as well. But I feel in my heart something is not right about it. The “spirit” of the Bible is not the “spirit in the “BoM” to me. I was even told by church members when I went to visit another church that the spirit I felt there at this other church (A Christian Church) was that of Satan.
When I left the church a while back, the church members told my daughter SHE was not going to heaven becaue I was not going to church. Now that is not very Christian to me.
Danielle
Danielle,
I like your posts. A very different perspective from that which we generally read here. You are in a very challenging situation. It’s a spiritual, intellectual as well as emotional battle you are facing. I’ve never been through something quite like that, so I hope you keep writing here so I might learn from your journey. Jesus said something like “Know the truth and the truth will set you free.” To which Pilate replied “What is truth?” To which my daughter (who loves the X Files program) would say “The truth is out there.”
It’s 9:30 AM central time and I’ve already used up my three posts for the day. So much for the life of the retired guy. Back to snowshoeing and guitar practice!
Jacob5,
Did you have a question in your post or was it simply a rant about how “we make up your beliefs,” and a personal testimony? As for the we make up your beliefs, most people here do not use the Bible when describing your beliefs but the words of your Prophets, Apostles, and Scriptures. Therefore I will plainly ask you:
Does Mormonism teach we are the literal offspring of two parent gods and hope to one day become a god?
Does Mormonism teach this was made possible by Jesus our older brother’s defeat of Satan, also our brother, and sin?
Does Mormonism teach he is the only Son of God according to the flesh?
Does Mormonism teach he was birthed due to a physical union between God the Father, who we call Elohim, and his spirit child Mary?
Does Mormonism teach if we follow after the teachings of Elohim and Jesus we might be like Elohim in the fullest sense, as gods of our own worlds?
Does Mormonism teach living prophets who speak for God can correct any scripture and nullify the statements of former prophets because God is eternally progressing himself and when the prophet has spoken the thinking is done?
Does Mormonism teach all other Christian churches are wrong in their beliefs, at least about the nature of God?
A simple Yes or No will suffice and of course you may not believe some of these things, which is fine, but to deny that Mormonism does in fact teach them it is deceitful.
Danielle,
I’m sorry I misunderstood you, I thought by BoM you meant the Book of Mormon not all of Mormon Doctrine/scripture. I have been through a similar situation as you where when I found out the Church wasn’t true, through both spiritual and evidential witness I might add, I was ostracized by my friends who were members of the LDS Church. I will be praying for you.
Lautensack
Hello.
I am a Mormon (I am not afraid to use such a title given to the LDS Church, especially since it’s been used countless times by past Apostles and Prophets), and I am going through a struggle myself about the LDS Church.
After conveying my problems, challenges, and questions, with my family members (especially my parents), I am basically told that orthodox Christianity, since it believes in saved by faith in Christ and God’s grace and non-denominational gatherings, therefore has no level of accountability. As such, you are free to sin as you please as long as you believe in Christ.
I do know this, though. I never knew originally that the Mormon scriptures taught that God resides on an uninhabitable planet called Kolob, that there is no such thing as the Original Sin (by Adam, of course), and that anything less than the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is deemed as “damnation” (See Mormon Doctrine).
As for this article, I have heard such an argument made by my parents frequently. Now, I can finally put it to rest since there is, indeed, a better way to defend the nature of the LDS Church as being “Christian”.
For this who wish to help me out with my problems, feel free to intervene. I’ve been at this for two years now and I have to find out if what I’m doing is right, especially since I am suffering greatly for it (I have to fake my way through Sunday every time I step into my ward).
Danielle, I am sorry to hear about what you are going through. You are the target of spiritual and emotional manipulation. Much of what you have described is laid out in howcultswork.com – too bad for the name, but please check it out. I encourage you to compare what Mormonism teaches against what Scripture declares, and test all things. I am praying for you.
Mike, we will be praying for you and we hope for the best in Christ. Kolob has been described as both a planet and a star by LDS leaders, but it is not generally taught that he lives on it, but rather on a planet near it.
In non-denominational churches that teach salvation by grace through faith alone there is indeed accountability, but not of the same kind (we don’t have temple recommend interviews, etc). Our leaders are expected to fulfill the qualifications described by Paul in 1 Timothy 3 for leaders.
My local church believes that believers, although saved by faith alone, will show the authenticity of that faith with fruits of genuine holiness. While we’re patient with people who struggle with sin, we know that those who persist in sin should be kindly confronted for the sake of love and restoration. Our leaders are held more publicly accountable, and the normal laymen are usually held accountable in a brother-to-brother relational kind of way. We don’t feel like the Bible teaches we need to have a massive hierarchy over us to accomplish holiness in Christ by God’s grace. In fact, the Christianity of the New Testament is largely a loose network of house churches, not a giant oligarchy. Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ. That is what should change a person’s heart, and it’s way more powerful than institutional checks and balances.
I would encourage you to see the simple chart on the front of MormonInfo.org for a simple contrast between Mormonism and Christianity.
Grace and peace in Christ, who justifies the ungodly like me by faith apart from works (Romans 4:4-8),
Aaron
Mike, your parents said “you are free to sin as you please as long as you believe in Christ.”
Absolutely not. Read Romans, specifically 6:1 “What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?” and v.15 “What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
I like what Aaron said above. Christianity isn’t “religion”, working from the outside in, it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ and making Him LORD of your life. It’s an amazing thing, having HIM change you, from the INside Out. You have nothing to fear in seeking the truth. I will be praying for you.
So, would they accept Jehovah’s Witnesses as Christians, since theyuse the name “Jehovah” in the name of thei organization?
“You are precious children of our Heavenly Father. In the life before this, you were his pupils,” said President Eyring, second counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Any Mormon friend in this blog help me understand what did he mean by “life before this, you were his pupils”?
Good Evening everyone!!!
Lautensack and Falcon and jer1414. Thank you so much for letting me in on your conversation. It is very interesting.. and at times entertaining (wink)
I have been going through this transition for a long time (years really). At first it was so hard, but now it is just a realization that I am OK looking elsewhere for the truth.
I feel that God doesn’t leave us with a bunch of questions. He gave all of us direct scripture, The Bible.
In the LDS church, you are always left with “Is this the true church?” If it was the true church, then why all the questioning? Am I making sense? 🙂
Mike Cucuk — I feel for you. What a wierd situation huh? I have a son that is very active. I would never make him feel bad (he is only 8). I think I will just read the Bible with him. Let God work out the rest. What was it that first started your questioning?
Danielle,
I have been through that same transition, it is a painful one when you are so convinced that the mormon church is the “one true church”, only to have God shine His truth in His Word into your life. It was a hard time for my wife and I, but in the end was all worth it.
Hi Arthur!!
Are you and your wife both former LDS? Did you do it together (leave that is)?
The hardest thing for me (when I left the church) was the feeling of being totally out of control. I was in my 30s and started drinking coffee (just because I could), I took off my garmets and bought clothes that made me feel girly. See what I mean, TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL! 🙂
I had no one telling me who to be or what to do. Every part of my personality had been so controled (I really did do my best to be a good Mormon woman…) I had to start completely over and try and create a new me. Very hard!!!
It doesn’t change how much I love the church though. I love the whole culture. A beautiful church with wonderful people and a temple to go to. How wonderful is all that!!
Pallathu……. I do not know what that means. What do you think it means?
Did any of you who left the church have those sort of “out of control” feelings?
Pallathu, we LDS believe that we lived as spirits with our Heavenly Father before we came to this earth to recieve a physical body – this is commonly referred toas the pre-existance. The quote you ask about means that we learned from our Heavenly Father while we lived with Him in the pre-existance.
Thanks Ralph. It confused me because it was very indirect. The President Eyring addressed the BYU students, so they better understand it. I see that belief is in accord with Hindu belief. Can you show anywhere Christ teaching the pre-existance or the Bible in that respect?
Nobody’s name is Jesus Christ. In the Christian Church, Jesus was the Christ, but that was not his name. Should some one tell you they believe their Church is true because it has his name in it should try to get the name right.
Danielle…
My questioning started when I was in a chat room two years ago and someone presented to me this link to an online tract:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp
Given the scenario was fictional and that I was deeply offended by what it portrayed about my faith, I shunned it, calling it erroneous and full of loaded questions and assumptions. I went about online to find the answers and I even spoke to church members and my bishop. The response was the same almost every time:
1) Stay away from Anti-Mormon material.
2) Read the BoM and pray to see if it is true.
3) Hold fast to your testimony.
After doing more research online and in books, I eventually reached the same conclusion some here have already beaten me to: that the LDS Church is nothing more than another denomination that teaches false doctrine and its members’ salvation rests entirely on Joseph Smith being a prophet, seer, and revelator…not in Jesus Christ and His perfect sacrifice for our sins.
So, here I am, still muddled in the answers that my questions are supposedly quenched of. For me, the next step is the toughest: working up the courage to become independent and terminate my membership with the LDS Church. If this church is a cult, then my salvation will either be:
a) held hostage until I “come to my senses”
b) stripped entirely and I’ll be condemned to the Telestial Kingdom or…”Outer Darkness.”
So it stands with me. Any comments before I start to rant on about my struggles?
Mike, here is a site that may help as you remove your name, and also help prepare you on what to expect. http://www.mormonnomore.com/
I will be praying for you, May God bless.
Pallathu, Here are 3 verses from the Bible where a pre-mortal existence is referred to –
Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.
John 9:2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind.
Here is how the LDS church interprets these, I know you would have a different one, but if you are trying to understand then just read and put it down as a difference of opinion.
Eccl – it refers to the spirit returning to God. The question is, how can something return to a place it has never been? If, as according to most Christian religions, the spirit is formed in the embryo/foetus in utero, then it did not originate in God’s presence, so in that scenario it cannot return.
Jer – in the Finnish Bible (which is translated from the German Lutheran Bible) the words used for “I knew thee” are the literal Finnish translation for knowing someone as a friend, not knowing about them. This is also how the LDS church understands this scripture, that God knew us before our physical body was formed in utero.
John – This is reasonably explicit in nature. Someone is asking Jesus who sinned to cause the man to be born blind, the man or his parents. Now how could the man sin before he was born if he did not have a life before then? Jesus did nothing to correct this statement, in fact all He said was neither this man nor his parents sinned. So this shows that Jesus accepted that belief, otherwise He would have corrected it.
There are others, but these 3 are the more direct. If you want to see more go to the LDS website, Gospel Library, Scripture and then look in the topical guide under “man, antemortal existence”.
Its interesting that you say the Hindu believe in a premortal existence, the Australian Aboriginals also believe in a dream-time where all things were created in spirit form before they became physical.