These past two weeks I have been away from Utah, first in Colorado to meet with the development team of the upcoming Internet Biblical Seminary e-learning platform, and then in Tennessee to stay with my uncle and then go to the Together For The Gospel conference in Louisville, Kentucky. I had the pleasure of hearing Dan Phillips of Pyromaniacs—visiting for the conference as well—preach at Calvary Community Church two times, once on the wisdom of God and then on the wisdom of man. It was super. Both sermons were largely based on Proverbs, and among the many passages he referenced, he referred to two passages that were relevant to prayer’s relationship with the pursuit of truth.
Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,
making your ear attentive to wisdom
and inclining your heart to understanding;
yes, if you call out for insight
and raise your voice for understanding,
if you seek it like silver
and search for it as for hidden treasures,
then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
Three simple observations:
- Understanding the fear of the Lord and finding the knowledge of the Lord pivots on whether our heart is inclined and our ears are attentive
- Receiving this knowledge is contingent upon whether we receive the words of God as a treasure in our hearts
- Our pursuit of truth should involve our calling out to God (praying!) for insight and understanding
The next passage, Proverbs 28:9, blew me away:
If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,
even his prayer is an abomination.
If we pursue truth in the manner described by Proverbs 2, receiving the word of God as a treasure in our hearts, our prayers are considered precious and are gladly answered by God. If we turn our ears and heart from what God has already revealed, our prayer is an abomination to God.
Are your prayers an abomination before God? Be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, my friends!
Aaron,
I would add a caveat to your points here regarding prayer and it comes in the form of a question. How does a person know they are hearing from God? I would say our Mormon friends have a sincere heart and are deligently seeking to hear from Him. The problem of course is that their “answers” support a false gospel. This is not that unusual. Over-the-years, I have witnessed sincere orthodox Christians get some “answers” to prayer that were questionable in there wisdom, knowledge and understanding. The Book of Proverbs is one of my favorite Books of the Bible. I read the chapter corresponding to the numerical date of the month, everyday. The key, I feel, is the part about absorbing God’s Word into our body, mind and spirit. That aids us in our discernment and provides maturity and wisdom. But, we have to stand on a firm foundation, which is knowing Jesus Christ and understaning God’s Word and His Gospel message.
Receiving what God has already revealed and treasuring his word in our hearts guards us against being led astray as we call out to God for wisdom and insight.
Point well taken. The Bible talks about building on a firm foundation. To draw together some of the other threads on this site, Christians have to have an understanding of the basic doctrines of the faith so that when they receive revelation from God, it (revelation) lines-up with what God has revealed in his Word. The Mormon practice of praying to receive a testimony is a psychological ploy. Why not tell the prospect to compare the doctrines of the Mormon faith with that of orthodox Christianity; study the history of the Mormon church along with the various Mormon sects, and as you do this pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal God’s truth, not in terms of a feeling but in wisdom, knowledge and understanding. God’s truth does not change with subsequent revelation. It is unchangable, just as He is unchangable. I’m big on prayer, in concert with God’s Word as a test of truth.
Amen!
So, I have a question, Falcon. What if, they do exactly what you say to do, and the truth is revealed that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true? What then?
Jacob,
With all do respects, it won’t happen. When you line LDS doctrine and history up next to Biblical Chrisitanity, it’s apparent that the LDS religion is a Brand unto itself. I’m talking about god having been a man, men progressing to godhood along with their goddess wives, ruling over their own planetary system, Jesus and Satan being brothers, Joseph Smith using a magic rock in a hat to “transcribe” the BoM, his 33 wives including adolescent girls, his penchant for using his magic rock to hunt for buried treasure, lack of any historical, DNA, lingustic, or archaeological evidence to support the BoM as an actual history, I could go on, but I think you get the drift. I don’t think the Utah LDS folks can be this blunt. Most of their prospects would bail-out if given an unsanitized side by side comparison. Forgive me if I appear to in your face with this, but we’re talking about the eternal destiny of people’s souls here.
Falcon,
With all do respect (a little military lingo) we aren’t talking about lining up history. My question is about prayer. What if someone prays, like you say they should do, and receives a positive answer that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true? What would you say? Please be straight with your answer to my my most direct question.
Falcon, and Aaron (if you decide to chime in)
What about Jacob’s question ? And if I may, without confusing the issue, or distracting you from answering the question, under what circumstances could YOU accept (without simply saying it couldn’t happen because, clearly, millions maintain that it has) that a positive answer was received from God? Otherwise, what is the explanation or reasoning that anyone could receive an affirmation of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Jacob,
My answer to your question: If someone prays about something that is not true, and gets a confirmation/revelation that it is true, it’s not true. I mean this regardless of the individuals religious affiliation. This is an extreme example (but true);
I knew a woman one time who was having an affair and decided to leave her husband and three kids because in the midst of her turmoil she saw a “holy card” with a picture of Jesus and the word “peace” on it. She of course took this as revelation/confirmation that she was to leave her family. Although I am dedicated to prayer and God’s guidance, I also know that things need to line-up and be fairly tight before I consider something “a word from the Lord”. Another example, Joseph Smith said that the moon was populated by six feet tall men who dressed like Pilgrims.(1) If you pray about that and get a positive confirmation, is it in fact true? The bar I use to accept a revelation is quite high. I believe God expects that from me. Confirming feelings can have too many sources. These revelations, while making someone feel very spiritual and connected to God, I think have a pretty low reliability rate, overall within the general religious population. So, if something isn’t true, it isn’t true regardless of personal revelation.
1. The Young Woman’s Journal, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” 1892, Vol. 3, p. 263.
All of these “answers” come in the form of feelings. That is not a good way to determine truth. Feelings change. God is not going to give an answer that contradicts His Word. You can go directly to the Bible to see if Mormonism is truth. God has revealed it all to us and we do not need heartburn to shown us.
Part 1
Praying about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or the Mormon gospel as a whole is first a psychological ploy that can only lead to one conclusion with how it’s presented by the LDS Church. There is only one option and that is it’s true. Any other answer one receives can’t be correct. Why not? Moroni 10:4 says, “…ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true”. When this scenario is presented by LDS missionaries or the Church itself they state, “Pray about the Book of Mormon and God will reveal to you that it’s true”. I’ve told missionaries that God has revealed to me that it’s not true (Galatians 1:6-9)and that answer wasn’t acceptable to them because it disagreed with their conclusion. They said, “Pray about the Book of Mormon again and when God has told you that it’s true then call us back.” So I guess I am supposed to keep praying again and again until I get the answer that they did? Is this mind trick of God? Nope!
I have asked Mormons that if they were presented with the Koran, the Hindu, Buddha, Confucius, Zoaraster and Shinto scriptures and were asked to read them and pray to see whether they or true or not the vast majority of them said “No!” Why is that? Because they know right from the start that they aren’t. Why? Because it’s not of God. I’ve only had two Mormons out of the vast majority of the ones that I have talked to that have said that they would read them and pray about it. They said that because they probably picked up where I was going with this type of reasoning.
When I bring up the subject about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and asked a Mormon if they would pray about the corrupt New World Translation that the JW’s use no Mormon has ever answered that they would. I find this very telling.
Part 2
Consider the following scenario that I have used regarding this issue of prayer and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the LDS gospel.
Mormon: I’d like you to read and pray about the Book of Mormon (BOM), asking God if it’s true.
Christian: Can you show me in the Bible where we are to pray about a book or a prophet to find out the truth?
Mormon: James 1:5 says, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given.”
Christian: That passage is not speaking about praying about a book, or a prophet. The context is testings, trials and temptations (vv.2,3,12)
Mormon: That is your interpretation!
Christian: That is what the passage says in context. It is up to you to demonstrate that the passage applies to praying a book in order to discover whether it is true or not.
Mormon: I know that the BOM is true because I prayed about it.
Christian: Acts 17:11-12 gives us an example of how to test a teaching or a doctrine, which would include a religious book. It wasn’t through prayer that Paul’s teaching was proven correct by the Bereans. It was through the test of scripture.
Mormon: But I prayed and I have a burning in my bosom that it’s true.
Christian: Where did you get the idea to pray about the BOM?
Mormon: Moroni 10:4-5
Christian: So the idea came from the BOM, right? Suppose for a moment that the BOM is not true. I know that you think it is, but just for the sake of argument suppose that it’s a counterfeit not inspired by the God who inspired the Bible. Who then would be real inspiration behind it?
Mormon: Satan?
Christian: Right! If the author is really Satan then who gave you your answer that the Book of Mormon is true?
Mormon: Well, if Satan were the author, which he isn’t, he would have to be the one who gives you the answer that the BOM is true.
Christian: Correct, that is why it’s spiritually dangerous to pray about whether the BOM is true.
Part 3
Praying for an answer about what God has already said is true (John 17:17) is to dishonor Him. The Bible has said that we are to test everything to see whether or not is of God (1 Thes 5:21). How do we test these things? By using scripture exactly like the Bereans did in Acts 17. The Bible is our source of truth and everything must be tested in light of it. Mormons will agree that God spoke in the Bible, God doesn’t lie, God is not the author of confusion and God won’t contradict Himself. The Book of Mormon is supposedly new revelation according to Mormons. The Bible is the oldest revelation so any new revelation would have to be tested by the oldest since God has already spoke there and also based on the points stated above regarding God. LDS publication “Preparing for Exaltation” on page 85 states: “God will never give personal revelation that contradicts what has already been revealed in scriptures.”
When Mormons ask me to pray about the BOM I tell them that I am afraid to. They ask me why I am afraid. I take them to 2 Thes 2:10-11. God says that if we don’t receive the love of the truth (honoring what He has already told us is true) then He will send a strong delusion so that those people will end up believing a lie. This is what is going to happen during the Tribulation when people believe this delusion and believe the antichrist. I then state 2 Tim 4:3-4 where it warns that those who don’t accept sound doctrine and turn their ears away from the truth will then turn unto believing fables. Next is 1 John 1:4 where it states that we are to test the spirits to see whether or not they are from God because many are not. How do we test them? By using scripture for starters.
Just for fun, read in Luke 24 starting about vs 13 to the end. In a couple of incidences Jesus appears to disciples and shows them in the scriptures that he is the Christ. Here He is, standing in front of them and He’s substantiating who He is from the scriptures. At one point when the two disciples finally recognize Him they say, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?” The answer is “No”. Later in the chapter it says “Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures….No burning heart, no subjective feelings. Jesus understood the transient nature of emotions. He wanted His disciples to know, intellectually that He was the fullfillment of what was written in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. Now, I’m really getting a lot of positive emotions as I write this….almost to the point of tears. But that doesn’t make any of it true (although I believe that it is true). It means I’m really moved by it. The truth of it comes in the scriptures and it says that Jesus opened their “minds” to understand it. It would be more appropriate then, to pray that God opens our minds to understand the scriptures about Jesus, who He is and what He did for us.
I think this question (perhaps?) assumes that the Bible is not God’s special revelation of truth. My original post assumes that it is, and that one should pray out to God and open up the Bible and receive God’s public revelation for what it is. We ought to pray, “Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law.” (Psalm 119:18)
The truth has already been revealed:
“Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.” (Psalm 90:2)
If one turns their ear away from this, and yet prays to God to ask whether a religion which teaches against it is true… their prayer is an abomination to God.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
I have a question about this… for instance within the Christian denominations there are varying interpretations of scriptures…and sometimes when I’ve been trying to figure out which is the correct one, I’ll pray about it. Do you think this qualifies as an “abomination”? I’m really just curious about your thoughts on this.
I agree that Mormonism is too contradictory to scripture to warrant praying on it – but I remember praying about Mormonism when I first started trying to figure what the HECK they believe – since they claim to be Christians… and you’re right, once you pry Mormon beliefs out of their writings, it becomes clear.
Jacob5,
To paraphrase Martin Luther: “Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by men who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. The authority of Scripture is greater than the comprehension of the whole of man’s reason and experience.”
Furthermore “for you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.”- 1 Corinthians 14:31-33
Thus anything that speaks in direct contradiction of scripture no matter how wonderful the experience or rational it seems, is not of God, though it may claim to be. This does not mean that wonderful and rational experiences come from scripture.
Lautensack
lillym, if one prays for wisdom in discerning which church or denomination is most faithful to scripture, I don’t think that’s necessarily an abomination. I think it becomes an abomination when one is praying in such a way that their heart is avoiding what scripture already has to say. Joseph Smith, for example, had already decided that God’s word, scripture, couldn’t settle the matter between doctrinal disputes. I think the best kind of prayer we can pray is, “Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law.” (Psalm 119:18) As Paul wrote, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
So when we approach the throne of God in prayer, we should ask God to help us more deeply believe that scripture is relevant and practical and profitable for decision-making in anything that concerns teaching, reproof, correction, and righteousness. My personal view is that scripture isn’t the only way God communicates to people (God also speaks through creation, through godly counsel, through providence), but it is the primary way. The primary challenge (but not the only challenge) in understanding scripture is that our hearts are tainted with sin. We need the Holy Spirit, not to give private emotional epiphanies that contradict scripture, but to open the eyes of our heart to embrace what God has publicly revealed in scripture, and to understand how it applies to our life in our unique life-circumstances.
I also believe in sola scriptura, that only scripture is binding on our life. Regarding anything beyond what scripture hasn’t explicitly or implicitly (by inference) made apparent, we, with a mind transformed by scripture (Romans 12:2) and a heart indwelled by the Holy Spirit, can make a decision to the best of our ability. In this sense, God has given his adopted children great freedom to live unto his glory, and he doesn’t micromanage with some sort of directing, private, inward feeling. For those who have, in the past, felt frequently guilt-ridden and imprisoned by having to get a supposedly divine emotional confirmation, this can be quite liberating.
For those interested in an in-depth study on decision-making and the will of God, I recommend this book.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
yes, I agree with sola scriptura. One of the things that led me away from Assemblies of God was the Pentecostal fixation with personal tarot card reading (i.e. “prophecy”). I remember visiting one Pentecostal church and being told (as an introduction to the church) that they offered “free personal prophecy sessions with so-and-so after services”
which smacked too much of fortune telling for me.
I am constantly learning and figuring out what I believe, and why I believe it. It takes years of reading scripture and studying. I like to take side tangents where I look at other beliefs (like Mormonism) – almost as an exercise. It’s good to be able to examine another teaching and recognize the problems immediately. And naturally, it’s good to know where unbelievers are coming from, since it helps in sharing the truth.
Lily,
I like that approach, too. It is great to know what others believe so you can strengthen what you believe and why. I think that is why I pay attention to such issues, because it is a springboard into what I believe. There have to be reasons, and we get to them best, I think, when we see the lessons mis-applied.
Lillym, it sounds like you’re in the grip of God! “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:28).
I’m in the same boat… it’s a journey with a fixed destination but a journey nonetheless. God is especially patient with his adopted children. “[A]nd every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit” (John 15:2).
Grace and peace in Christ, the Good Shepherd,
Aaron
Speaking of the journey – this year I’ve been on an eschatology discovery. I’m trying to master the differences between amil, premil, pre-trib, replacement theology etc. HA! I’m curious about Mormon eschatology so I hope this blog gets into some of that too. 🙂
I don’t just read this blog for the Mormon curiosity – it’s always good to read other believers on the topic of apologetics.
*Waving to my fellow travelers*
lilly,
I would consider myself a full gospel Christian, believing in the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit as described in First Cor. 12,13,14. My spiritual antenna is always up because people can really abuse and manipulate as well as be abused and manipulated. For me, what we are talking about on this thread is the role of “prayer in seeking the truth.” Unfettered personal revelation, in my experience, leads to all kinds of trouble. In the early part of the 19th century, religous camp meetings were very popular. It wasn’t unususal for people to display unusual physical manifestations like fainting, rolling, laughing, running, singing, dancing, and jerking-a spasmodic twitching of the entire body where they hopped with head, limbs and trunk shaking. These things are even around in a modern form. So is this increased spirituality and piety? We need to know God’s Word to know truth and test everything.
I’m fresh on the issue of eschatology… hardly have an informed opinion at all. I just got a book this past week that is supposed to introduce me to all the major views. Hopefully it helps me!
*waves back* !
Wow, I have never seen a more convoluted bunch of answers in my life.
I mean, really convoluted. Which came first the truth or the pray (chicken in the egg scenerio).
I ask a simple question and get this whole, mormonism isn’t true so there is no need to pray about it, routine. I feel very sorry for you guys. You have totally diluted the necessity for prayer by imprinting upon yourselves that there is no need to ask of God for truth.
Just like the dumb idols worshipped in the past you truly worship a dumb god. That all his words have been spoken in the past, and there is no need to seek anything else from God. You have theologically tried to stamp out anyone’s desire to try to seek truth by trying to make it sould as if we are simply pestering God who gives to all man liberally and upbraideth not.
I would truly be ashamed of a church that tries to put confusion into the hearts of its followers by saying that if you recieve an acknowledgement of truth it is just their useless feelings and they are being deceived.
I asked a simple straight forward question, and you attack the very purpose of prayer itself by saying that we can’t really receive an answer because it is already written down. And if I were to receive a confirmation of the truthfulness of my church it is obviously a lie because it is not what you believe in.
I truly feel sorry for you guys. You cover your eyes at will and then demand all others to do such. You curropt the very value of a God who talks to all His children by saying that the bible is all you need and there is no further need to seek His guidance.
I am sure you will give the same excuses as before, but I did pray about my church and the gospel it teaches, and I have received a confirmation from God that it is true, and it makes no difference what you try to say about my testimony. I know that there are at least two people that know this is the truth and for me to reject it is to reject my own existence.
This is great discussion and I wonder if the following may prompt a response as to the exclusive franchise that many of you seem to think that THE BIBLE has as the only authentic or authorized source of God’s word. 2 NE 29:1-11
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
CONTD.
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
TRULY, this not only appeals to common sense, but rings true as words from a God that is no respecter of persons. God is God of all of us and not just the Jews- can you answer the question as to why the Bible is the ONLY source of God’s word??
Clarity67,
Where has anyone said that the bible is the only source of God’s word? The reason I reject the Book of Mormon is not because I don’t like Joseph Smith or I hate Mormons, but because the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the PGP, is because they contradict scripture. If they did not contradict scripture then I would not reject them it is that simple. That which is not theopneustos (God breathed) I will never submit to, to do so would be Idolatry. Thus if we are to have a high view of the words of God at all then we must admonish and reject anything that is contrary to the words already theopneustos.
Also while I have said that Scripture is my final authority I never said it was the only source through which I can hear God speak, however it is the standard by which everything else must be weighed. Also I have never said that the bible contains all the words God could ever speak. I believe John 21:25, however I also believe Luke 16:29-31 stating that the the Torah is all we need to know God.
As for God being God of us all, I disagree. God is God over us all, however many people worship false gods who by nature are not gods at all. Now will God call men, women, and children from every tribe and tongue to His side, yes.
God is not a respecter of persons, I totally agree! God is not, and He will not be bribed with our works, which are filthy rags, thus as horrible, disgusting, rotten, sinners we all deserve eternal punishment. Thus it is not according to our works done in righteousness but His mercy that any are raised up in Christ and seated in heaven with God. That’s why Christianity isnt about karma where by we bribe God with our good deeds in order to merit a better place in the kingdom, but about grace in knowing that we have nothing to offer we accept His free gift knowing that nothing have done or ever will do has earned it, but it is solely a gift of mercy, of Grace, from God who has every right to eternally punish us for our wickedness.
Lautensack
Jacob5,
What of the testimony of an Islamic Fundamentalist, is it equally as valid as yours? They would say that you are surly headed for hell as you have not submitted to the will of Allah. How about the testimony of a Jehovah’s Witness? They would say you are probably not even going to make it to the New Earth because you have not told enough people about their gospel. What about a scientologist’s? I wont even go into it because you’d think I was making it up. There is one thing in common with all of these people, they all have received testimony from God’s Holy Spirit, more or less, that their church/religion is the one true religion on the face of the earth. Why is your testimony more valid than theirs? What makes it more valid than mine? They are utterly different. The difference is mine is backed by scripture and yours is not.
You said, “You curropt the very value of a God who talks to all His children by saying that the bible is all you need and there is no further need to seek His guidance.” I never said that we do not pray, I have never said that we do not pray for guidance or wisdom, but why would we pray for knowledge that God has already spoken on? Would you pray about committing murder? How about fornication? Would you ask God if you really shouldn’t commit blaspheme or worship idols? Then why pray about a false prophet to which He has already spoken? So no I don’t worship a “dumb god” but a Wise one who in His wisdom gave us an instruction manual to live by because we are far to often swayed by our sinful desires. And go figure He was even wise enough to tell us how to distinguish between the words that are His and those that aren’t. Would a dumb god do that? Naah he wouldn’t have the foreknowledge. I’m sorry my God is not a product of 13th century Jewish mysticism mixed with 19th century extreme romanticism and existentialism.
Lautensack
Here is my 2 cents. As stated above, James 1:5 says that if anyone lacks wisdom they should ask God, and they will get an answer. I believe this. I ask, do we lack wisdom in regards to the BOM? Ultimately we cannot know with 100% intellectual certainty that the events described in the BOM actually happened. Same thing for the bible by the way, and ultimatellly many other things non-religious. So here is what we have. We have 13 million people (actually probably closer to 4 million if we count people who actually admit they believe) who testify that it is true based on thier subjective emotions and Joseph Smith’s word. That is it. There is ZERO outside evidence. None. Alternatively, we do have much outside evidence for biblical events. For example, I can get on a plane today and go to Jerusalem. The same cannot be said for Zerahemla.
Mormon missionaries have been asking people to pray about the BOM for many, many years. Based on thier logic, it is probable that more people have had thier subjective feelings tell them the thing is NOT true than it is.
Do we lack wisdom? In my perview, Joseph Smith wrote a built-in apriori bias into Moroni’s promise. Regardless of the truthfulness of the BOM. For me I think God’s answer to such a prayer regarding the truthfulness of the BOM is: “Will you please use the brain I created for you!”
In short, I don’t think we lack wisdom when it comes to the BOM. For one thing, Joseph Smith should have done a better job keeping his story strait, and the LDS church could do a better job at not acting like they are trying to pull the wool over thier member’s and everyone elses’ eyes.
Jacob,
What I find interesting is that Mormons are very proud that they get continuous revelation from their god but then they run like crazy from those revelations. We’ve seen it again and again on this site when specific “revelations” are exposed that Mormons say “that doesn’t count”. Based on this, I would say the reliability of Mormon prophetic utterances is about zero. Also, I would say this revelatory tradition within Mormonism is the cause for the charge that Mormons are purposefully decietful about their teachings. Jon Krakauer in his book “Under The Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, chronicles where this revelation tradition led, specifically the teaching dealing with blood atonement. In “The Fruit of The Branch” Richard L. Saunders writes “From its inception, the revelatory tradition in Mormonism engendered strife. The doctrine of modern, continuing revelation, begun by Joseph Smith and accepted by most groups claiming descent, leaves social order open to counterclaims that strike at the heart of ecclesiastical order. If one person may speak for God, why may not another? By claiming an ongoing dialogue with divinity, Joseph Smith opened the door to a social force he could barely control.”
Last Sunday afternoon I was talking with some LDS missionaries and asked them, “When Jesus was born was He God”? They said that He wasn’t. They took me to Abraham 3:24 where Jesus is referred to as “like unto God”. I took them to Isaiah 9:6 which says the opposite and is very clear about Jesus being the “mighty God, everlasting Father” at birth. Ironically, it says the same thing in 2 Nephi 19:6. Who is Jesus in Mosiah 15:1-5? The everlasting Father!
This takes me back to 1 John 1:1-3. Mormons say that Jesus was not God in the flesh when He was born or during His eartly ministry. What does it say in verse 3? Those who say this are of the spirit of antichrist.
In the March 2008 issue of the “Ensign” on page 9, Spencer Kimball says of Jesus that “he is also a God”. This is exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses say in their corrupt version of the Bible called the New World Translation” – “a God” instead of the Bible’s “the Word was made flesh” (John 1:1-14). Mormons won’t pray about the NWT, but yet they are in line with one of the JW’s teachings and most other false religions of the world and that is the denial of Jesus’ deity whether it be before the resurrection or after.
So what does this have to do with prayer? Why would I pray about the truthfulness of the Mormon gospel when I am told early on that what they are saying is in direct conflict with the truth that God has already revealed? If Mormons want to believe the lie they have been fed by Joseph Smith, they will have nobody to blame but themselves when they are cast into outer darkness.
I apologize for the typo in my post above. I meant 1 John 4:1-3 instead of 1 John 1:1-3.
To my LDS friends, please test the scriptures of the Bible where God has already spoke against any so-called prophet before you decided to sell your soul to him/her. Eternity is a long time to be in outer darkness and those that continue in Mormonism are heading straight there. I say this because it’s the loving thing to do. If you had cancer and didn’t know it and went to see your doctor who knew that you did have cancer and didn’t tell you, would he be doing his job to not tell you? Would it be the loving thing to not tell his patients the truth even though the news will hurt them initially?
If you saw your neighbors house on fire are you going to walk back into your house and ignore it or are you going to dial 911? What is going to hurt more – temporary emotional pain now to see Mormonism for what it is or spending eternity in emotional, physical and spiritual pain in outer darkness?
I say this in love because I love the Mormon people and am desperately trying to reach them with the good news of the gospel and the real Jesus. The Mormon gospel is not good news and their Jesus is a counterfeit.
Hello, everyone. Back from my hiatus.
Jacob5, I’ve read your post. You spoke of your sincerity in your testimony, you clarified your belief in an open canon of scripture, and you even gave God an ad hominem (on the bright side, it’s more toned down than the insults hurled at him from apst LDS leaders).
1) People can be sincere in their feelings. They can also be sincerely wrong. My question is, have your feelings of confirmation been absolutely, 100% reliable for the entire duration of your LDS membership up to this date? Be honest.
2) The LDS Church implicitly teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose, not one in substance. In this case, it would be an absurdity that the Holy Spirit (the one giving you your spiritual confirmation) would contradict what the Father or the Son has already revealed through scripture. But there are many versed in the Bible that show that your beliefs are, in fact, contradicted, despite your confirmation of the truth of the LDS Church. By rejecting the scriptures as a basis of truth, you are simply making yourself a hypocrite to your own namesake (i.e. Moroni’s Promise). Is this the true nature of a Latter-Day Saint?
3) May I remind your that many ex-Mormons have testified that they once felt a divine confirmation regarding the LDS Church, only to find out later that it was not true. The Word of God must support what we believe. After all, would God (let alone the Holy Spirit) lie to us?
I await your answers. By the way, nice post, Aaron. Keep up the good work.
I meant to say “past” in the above post, but I ended up with a skewed result.
Oddly enough, an apst is a minor angel, after the order of the “Enochian Angels” created in the 16th century by Edward Kelley (1555-1597; Alchemist, medium, and convicted criminal). Perhaps this influence stretches to the angel of Moroni that visited Joseph Smith, Jr. I’m just speculating, but feel free to comment.
First for Lautensack. It makes no difference to me if people of other religions feel the same way about their religion. The probably do feel fervently about their faith. I wouldn’t doubt that. My testimony is my own, and although I can share it, I can’t make people believe what I believe. This is where the Holy Ghost comes in to play. I all instructions of our church with regards to teaching gospel lessons, it is always stated that we must attain the help of the Holy Ghost in order to do the real teachings. I have been in meetings where, even though I have heard the same information previously, I have not felt the spirit, and even though I already believed the principle I did not feel more inspiration on the subject. But this is why it is so important to follow the commantments and keep the Holy Spirit in our lives, that we may be able to make the clear distinction. This is how I know of my personal faith.
For Mike on the same lines. As I have said, I have a knowledge of when I do feel the Holy Ghost and when I know that it is my emotions simply getting the better of me. As I have explained before, I feel an overwhelming verification of the truth. I feel as if a well of knowledge, not emotion, opens up. And here is when the emotion does set in, when I reflect on that knowledge which I recieve, I feel a joy that I know does not come from attaining any worldly substance. Now, if you will be willing to believe me on this point, I had served a mission in the beautiful land of Korea. As all missionaries do when going to a foreign speaking country, I had the arduous task of learning Korean. If you had spoken to many of my companions, you would know that I had a difficult time with it. But, there were some times when I was in discussion with someone, I felt the Spirit, and I had the greatest amount of understanding and clarity that I never had before those momments.
And how did all this come about, you may ask? It came through prayer.
Lautensack,
My friend, you know more than anyone that the Bible contradicts itself in replete fashion as you have so aptly demonstrated on this blog time and again. Your argument “The reason I reject the Book of Mormon is not because I don’t like Joseph Smith or I hate Mormons, but because the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the PGP, is because they contradict scripture. If they did not contradict scripture then I would not reject them it is that simple”. while notable, simply does not hold water.
I will not bore you with the references of contradiction because you know them better than I do, thus, if the Bible did not contradict itself we would truly have one faith, one Lord, and one baptism which we clearly do not. I attribute such to exactly the type of bickering backlash of words exchanged in a continual attempt of resolution with no end in sight until the Lord Himself shall settle the matter. To us, He already did. To you, the wrest of the same opposing verses continues to divide and disseminate perpetual confusion.
Clarity, can I offer a reason for the division, past and present? Pride. Human pride, pure and simple. The Mormon Church is no different. With hundreds of off-shoots and many more who leave your church (certainly, people leave our churches, too), one thing that cannot deny (or maybe they can) is that pride gets in the way of God’s word. God’s word is there in the Bible for all to see. And as we read in Ephesians 1:9, the mystery has been revealed. We know what is going to happen, and we know what Christ has done and why. Pride, though, gets in the way of that knowledge, and we assume we know better than Christ.
And I’d like to see what you call contradictions in the Bible. Care to share?
It’s pretty tough to disabuse someone of the notion regarding their wonderful religious feelings and experiences. And of course their’s are special and different from those of other religions and even what can be achieved in self-help or motivational meetings. There is nothing more powerful than a religious thought that is conceived and coupled with strong emotion. It becomes truth. That’s why people can be manipulated into believing and doing all sorts of things for the organization or group. I’ve seen way too much of it and it’s always “but mine is different than those experienced by other people.” So my religious experiences tell me that I have the truth but you don’t. You’re deceived.
“And I’d like to see what you call contradictions in the Bible. Care to share?”
Exactly what I was thinking. This should be interesting.
Jacob5, I read you reply, and I shall generously overlook the fact that you didn’t answer a single one of my questions, so let me approach this from a different angle.
I find Moroni’s Promise to be a “low ball” means of convincing someone of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. If you don’t know, a low ball is a common sales technique that consists of offering a really good deal to a potential customer, building rapport, and then subtly adding conditions to the deal that make it less of a bargain, relying on the customer’s reluctance to walk away and be perceived as (1) greedy, shallow, or cheap (for only wanting the best deal), (2) stupid (for not realizing there would be conditions), or (3) a liar (if they promised to buy before learning of the conditions).
A low ball is found in print or broadcast media, for example, when an advertisement is followed by fine print (or really, really fast talking). In religion, the low ball is common enough to be cliché: “God will freely forgive you of all of your sins (but only if you send money).” Like this example, the technique involves an independent positive statement, followed by a “BUT” phrase. Low balls are routinely used by the LDS Church. They are found in scripture and taught over the pulpit.
Moroni’s Promise is a particularly extreme low ball, in that the promised benefit is clear and simple (“God will tell you this is true”), but the conditions do more than just make the promise unattractive—they eviscerate the promise by dropping it down a postmodern rabbit hole. You learn that it is impossible to confirm that the low ball conditions have been met (What is “real intent,” and how “sincere” and “ponderous” does your heart have to be?); you can’t be sure if the promised message from God has been sent or received (What exactly is the “power of the Holy Ghost”?) and you don’t even know if you’ve been asking the right question (What are “these things” and does our phrasing of the question really matter?)
Well Mike,
I felt I quite well addressed your concerns. But, if you care for me to go into further explanation, I will.
I will put into analogy my understanding of my own feelings with regards to my personal experiences in the form of a baseball player. I saw a show talking about the mental workings of a professional baseball player when it comes to hitting a baseball. Now to a common Joe Blow who only occassionally plays baseball, and puts no extra work into the sport, if he is put in front of a professional pitcher will pretty much be on a hit or miss situation with hitting that ball. He would not truly be able to understand if he did a certain technique properly or if he just got lucky by putting the bat in the right place. Now a professional who has practiced every day and mastered techniques can read a pitch so well, that he can actually determine quite well where to swing, and even possibly send that ball where he needs it.
I have worked with my faith that I learned what it is that tells me when it is the spirit is confirming to me the truth. Now, am I calling you a Joe-blow as far as faith is concerned? No. I am saying that when it comes to playing in my ballpark you have no clue as to what my techniques are as far as hitting with my pitcher. That is why I explained that the whole burning in the bosom deal is only certain individuals trying to explain a spiritual experience in temporal terms. How many people actually believe that Isaiah ate a hot burning ember, but we understand what is meant. I have my understanding, he had his, and you have yours.
You may ask why the Holy Spirit may tell you or any others differently than me, but I say, that makes no difference to me. I ain’t your umpire. You need to make your own calls. But don’t come into my ball park and make mine. Only God will be calling the game at the end, and I am perfectly content with my faith where it is until Judgement Day.
Jacob5, I truly admire your adherence to your faith. However, there is one thing I must point out.
As far as which ballpark I’m in, it really doesn’t matter. No matter if it’s an elementary school field or Yankee Stadium, when it comes to playing baseball, the rules remain the same. It doesn’t matter if you’re a greenhorn amateur or a seasoned professional, the rules apply to every player equally. The difference here is that you and I know the finer details of the rules. As such, we are subject to far more discipline in working to obtain a result (i.e. spiritual confirmation). In turn, we tend to narrow the strike zone instead of being more open and allowing ourselves to make mistakes. Or else, how else are we going to learn any better?
Back to the rules, now. If there are just one true set of rules to play by and nothing else, then there shouldn’t be confusion when an umpire makes a call. Instead, we see the occassional player challenge that call because it goes against what they believe in. The burden of proof rests on you to pin down the rules of the game that you’ve gotten yourself involved in. Otherwise, your method is no more valid than the method made by the average Joe Blow.
How’s that for a curveball?