The Book of Mormon in Context

“The possibility of finding buried treasure fascinated many in late eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century America. Reports of searching for such riches were widespread in the Palmyra [New York] area, and extant accounts show that treasure was generally sought through supernatural means. Locations for buried wealth and lost Spanish mines were sometimes located through dreams. Treasures could also be located by using divining rods, often made from ‘witch hazel,’ or by looking in special stones or crystals. Sometimes when a stone was used, a person would place the stone in a hat and then conjure the guardian treasure spirit. After finding a spot where the cache was supposedly hidden, the seekers would draw a magic circle on the ground around the hidden treasure. Sometimes they would maintain absolute silence, but other times they would recite magical charms or religious verses used as charms. Whatever the means, money-diggers needed to overcome the guardian spirit who had enchanted the treasure, otherwise the treasure would slip back into the earth.” (H. Michael Marquardt & Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record, page 63)

This is the trouble had by Joseph Smith in 1826. A money-digger by occupation and reputation, Joseph got into trouble when the treasure he had been hired to find continually eluded the treasure hunters. Here’s what happened.

Josiah Stowell was a well-to-do farmer in Bainbridge, New York. Believing Spaniards had once hidden a mine in northern Pennsylvania, Mr. Stowell decided to try to find it. Because of the Smith family’s reputation for having the ability to locate buried treasure, Mr. Stowell sought their help late in 1825. According to Mr. Stowell’s testimony, while still in New York, Joseph looked into his peep stone and said he could see the treasure Mr. Stowell was looking for; it could be found in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Therefore, Mr. Stowell hired 19-year-old Joseph to find the buried treasure.

After several months of unsuccessful digging, Mr. Stowell’s nephew, Peter Bridgman, became concerned that his uncle was being swindled. Peter brought a formal charge against Joseph Smith, resulting in Joseph’s arrest. As part of his own defense, Joseph made a statement, which said:

“Prisoner examined: says…That he had a certain stone which he occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance underground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel[l] several times,… That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, made them sore;…” (Inventing Mormonism, page 72)

Court records from Chenango County, New York show that Joseph Smith appeared before Justice Albert Neely for examination (a pre-trial hearing) on March 20th, 1826. After hearing testimony by witnesses and the defendant himself, according to Marquardt and Walters,

“the court concluded that there was enough evidence to indicate that the prisoner, Joseph Smith the Glass Looker, had claimed to have the skill to discover lost goods, a misdemeanor under the Vagrant Act, and had not actually found anything. Neely wrote in his court record, ‘And therefore the Court find the defendant [Joseph Smith] guilty.'” (page 74)

No further action appears to have been taken. Joseph was not sentenced to any penalty. There is some evidence to suggest that, due to Joseph’s young age, the court decided not to pursue the case any further.

The following year, 1827, Joseph claimed he found gold plates in the earth. According to his story, he brought the plates home and translated the text engraved on them into what would become the Book of Mormon. Early in the history of the LDS Church Mormons understood that Joseph located the gold plates by gazing into his seer stone, and used the stone in the Book of Mormon “translation” process (Inventing Mormonism, page 75).

To recap: Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration, admitted to using a peep stone to find buried treasure and other lost items. He confessed that he sometimes pretended to see treasure while looking at his stone. He was known and sought after as a money-digger/glass-looker. It was in this context that Joseph Smith announced he had found ancient plates of gold buried in the earth which contained the very words of God.

Ten years ago, then LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley was puzzled. He said, “I can’t understand why those of other faiths cannot accept the Book of Mormon.” Perhaps Joseph Smith’s reputation as a glass-looking money-digger could be understood as one reason non-Mormons question the authenticity of the book Joseph and his seer stone produced.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, Mormon History. Bookmark the permalink.

142 Responses to The Book of Mormon in Context

  1. Rick B says:

    Eric said

    “Or, is it warm feeling “yes” no feeling “No”?

    First off, you could pee in your pants, that will cause a warm feeling, does that make it good?

    Then why is it the LDS tell us to READ and pray about the BoM being true, yet I never once meet an LDS member who read all other religions scriptures and said they prayed about them and were told they were wrong. They only read the BoM and assume the rest are wrong. Yet they get on us if we do not read and pray about the BoM, or we read it and pray, then say our answer to prayer was, the Book was in correct. Rick b

  2. GRCluff says:


    You said “You haven’t addressed the core issue, where do we go when we have conflicting experiences? Throw up our hands? No, we go to the Word. If you don’t trust the Word, why carry around a quad with the KJV in it? Just carry the three mormon scriptures and a collection of Ensign magazines”

    If your foundation for truth is the Bible, you go to the KJV. If your foundation for truth is the Power of God as in 1 Cor 2:5, then you go to God in prayer. Even the 3 other books and the Ensign are meaningless without the Gift of the HG. That is what JS REALLY restored. It is just as real as the Bible, but a bit more difficult to use. Some people actually join the church and still don’t even know how real the gift can be…


    You got it all wrong. It is the CONTENT of the BoM that enables the HS to work with us. The brown rock is CONTEXT that is not in any way relevent. It was not JS or anything he said, but the enlightenment of the HS that I found as I read the BoM that made it real for me. I feel the same enlightenment from the Bible, but I don’t need to focus on its context. The context could be the translated brown stains on toilet paper as far as I am concerned. If the HS bears witness of its validity, then it is from God.

    God does this intentionally so our faith CAN be on the power of God rather than the wisdom of man.

  3. GRCluff says:

    This is the context that the Prophet Isaiah placed on the BoM, when he prophesied about it’s coming forth:

    Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
    12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
    13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    Why will the wisdom of wise men perish? Because they cannot leave the CONTEXT long enough to focus on CONTENT.

    Because they can put their faith in the power of God over their faith wisdom of men. 1 Cor 2:1-5

  4. germit says:

    GRCluff: Well, we’re going round in circles here, and the plain fact seems to me that your ‘inner witness if the Holy Ghost” is a show stopper. Particularly when you have convinced yourself that God would not even want to make evident evidence to the contrary, because that would be working against your faith. Yours is a seamless, self-contained world. Perhaps God will interupt with a greater subjective experience than the one you are already having, I can’t imagine what else would mean anything to you. I’m hoping your take on “faith” is not popular. GERMIT

  5. GRCluff says:

    Lets try this again:

    Because they can’t put their faith in the power of God over their faith in the wisdom of men. 1 Cor 2:1-5.

    Bible scholarship clearly falls into the wisdom of men category, answers to prayer fall into the power of God category. It is all quite clear to me.

    The HG has always helped me remember things. I was able to teach the gospel in Spanish with clarity when the HG was present, then have difficulty with conversational spanish the very next day. I can’t tell you how many principles I understood for the first time as I taught them to others. You should have tried it a few more times– eventually you would remember it clearly.

  6. Michael P says:

    I know there is a lot of attention going to CLuff’s direction, but there is also much he has not addressed. He does seem to have come back to the testimony, which is something he will have to wrestle with. He has made bogus claims and cannot back them up and now he has run to the testimony argument.

    His position is weak, and the histories he has been taught are wrong. And he rests on his testimony and testimony alone. This has been said before, but that is essentially what the radical Jihadists would say and would die (and kill) for that same conviction of a testimony.

    I would like to to hear his responses to many of the issues proposes, like the rebut to the Canon not being inspired, thr trouble with intermingling languages with a people the Jews were told to leave far behind, and so on and so forth.

    He has made the claims, and it is his duty to defend them. But that he has quickly run to his testimony as a defense shows a very weak position; and the answers to our rebuts are not faith promoting. This answer is how he keeps his faith, I presume.

    I’d also be curious if any former Mormons might give an insight into this line of thinking.

    Good night!

  7. Arthur Sido says:


    Actually I typically go to the English Standard Version, which I think is a better translation and no one speaks King James English anymore (nor did they when Smith was writing the BoM, but it sure makes it sound better). You are still missing the question or you are evading answering it because you cannot. If you say that the Spirit tells you one thing and I claim another, we have to go to the Bible. Not the random, out of context verse but the whole counsel of God. I was once in your shoes and I know how the comfort of relying on your testimony can blind you, and I also know that only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes.

    If the Christians on the board would be so kind as to add me to their prayers tomorrow, I have invited the local missionaries over and hope to get the chance to witness to them.

  8. Ralph says:

    The most important thing is content and ‘fruit’ over context/history. For example Saul/Paul in the NT started out as a murderer of Christians but then became one of the leaders of the movement. There were many who thought that he was pretending to be Christian to catch them off-guard and arrest them all later. What JS did prior to God calling him as prophet is irrelevant. Yes there are similarities in what he did previously and how he ‘found’ and translated the gold plates, but this does not meant that it is not true – just makes it more difficult for someone to believe in as you all say here. The only ‘eye-witness’ that I know of who said that JS put a stone in a hat and read out the BoM was Martin Harris. He only helped with the 116 lost pages. The rest of the BoM that we have today was mainly scribed by Oliver Cowdrey and Emma Smith, again as far as I know. These two recount a different story to Martin Harris. So the BoM as we have it was not translated by the stone-in-a-hat-trick.

    Regardless, the ‘first’ stone everyone goes on about was called a ‘peep stone’ while the stone in the hat was referred to as a ‘seer stone’, which from memory is also what the Urim and Thummin is referred to being. Could this not be the stone that was placed in the hat and not the ‘peep stone’? If not, why the difference in terminology between accounts?

    As far as the ‘fruit’ part – I know you are all against and I am for, so please do not make this the issue.

    BTW A number of years ago a friend of mine bumped into a descendent of the Smith family. They identified with the Reorganised LDS but were not active or very religious. They said that everything that happened – ie the visions, gold plates, etc – is taught as fact in the family – ie it did happen and was not a myth/legend/hallucination/etc.

  9. Arthur Sido says:


    “What JS did prior to God calling him as prophet is irrelevant.”

    That is a bogus comparison. What Smith did after his alleged call is hardly complimentary or befitting a prophet. Adultery, fornication, polygamy, more false prophecy, slander, megalomania, false witness. Those are his fruits AFTER he became a “prophet”. The nature of Smith as a liar and a scoundrel didn’t change, he just got better at it and made it sound more respectable by declaring himself to be a prophet.

  10. Ralph says:

    Kitty said ” GRCluff says: Would you feel inclined to ridicule the speaker at a business conference, because he arrived in a beat up car? Or rode an old bicycle? That would be ridiculous and superficial. (like the content of this article). We should instead examine the content of his presentation.” Well then if it was my uncle you’d miss out on very good advice. He is a multimillionaire but he goes round in a tank top, stubbies and thongs and drives a beat-up Falcon ute. The reasons being is 1) comfort, 2) makes less of a target for thieves, 3) His Merc used to get scratched up all the time by idiots with keys/coins and insurance was a pain because of that. Now he’s older he owns a beautiful gold Jag S-type, has built a couple of retirement villages/investment properties and has gold-plated tap handles in his house.

  11. ingrid says:

    I know for a fact that the Book of Mormon is a fake,fraud and absolutely not written by Joseph Smith.
    I know for a fact that it was written by a minister as a gift to his wife for her birthday.
    It was not Joseph Smith or devine intervention.
    He was only looking for some type of glory, money and to have many wives to enslave and beat down and persecute. He was too lazy to work and found an easy way to make a buck or two. Little did he know what kind of monster he would create by stealing someones novel.
    He was a false prophet and as far as I’m concerned made a deal with the devil.

  12. falcon says:

    I don’t get your CONTENT, CONTEXT analogy or whatever it was. If you want to talk about PRODUCT and PROCESS you may have something. Rock in hat equals PROCESS while BoM equals PRODUCT. So if JS used the rock in the hat trick which is known to be an occult instrument and process (like his divination rods) to “translate” the product (BoM) what does that say about the BoM.

    Quite frankly, I don’t think the dude saw anything when he did the rock in the hat trick as he admitted to his father-in-law about the same process used in treasure hunting.
    He wrote the BoM using the KJV of the Bible, his experience and knowledge of evangelical protestantism, and commonly discussed ideas of the day. On the original title page of the BoM he is listed as “author”. He tried to sell the copyright to make some money. Quite a prophet this Joseph Smith. I think his motivation is pretty obvious.
    So JS used the rock in the hat trick for the first 100 pages and then tubed the process? I’ll look into that but it sounds like some more creative LDS thinking.

    CLUFF and RALPH-do you guys also have a testimony of the Book of Abraham? And what was the PROCESS by which JS developed that PRODUCT?

  13. germit says:

    GRC: we agree to disagree on what a “wise man” might do: for me, how foolish to disregard either, and the lists of qualifications for leaders are in Titus and 1st Tim for a reason (that’s the framework for a lot of the context). Why give JS or anyone else a free pass on character because he or she has “revelation”? The tabloids are full of all kinds of ‘ministers’ who’ve gone down this road. RALPH: your comparison of JS to Paul is so off target: I’ve heard MANY testimonies like Paul’s of men and women who ONCE were like Paul, AND THEN REPENTED. Our issue with JS is that we have solid reason to believe that he did not repent, but went from bad to worse, to ‘worser’. That my friend is an issue to everyone except the LDS. And that’s how the real world works: when people have a huge character deficit, typically their credibility takes a hit in WHATEVER arena they operate in. Buying into JS ‘special status’ and giving him a ‘revelation free pass’ makes it impossible for you to treat him like all the rest. Are you OK with the “seer stone” being one and the same with “Urim and Thummim”?? Isn’t a “seer stone” still an occult device ??

  14. falcon says:

    Rock In the Hat As Described by David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.;1887.
    “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”
    Today, there there have been over 3,000 changes to the BOM including changing of entire veses. I guess the rock in the hat is not a real reliable way to translate reformed Egyptian text. I guess Joseph Smith should have used the magic glasses that came with the gold plates as part of the translation kit.

    Now David Whitmer says that the magic rock in the hat was how the BoM was translated. In April of 2006 the Mormon Church declared “This book was not a record of myth or an ancient history test or anything other than the true word of God.” (Ensign, April 2006, p68) To me this says that the LDS Church no longer views the BoM as ancient text or history. So, I guess, they no longer have to debate DNA evidence, linguistic evidence or archeological evidence to prove the BoM is true. It’s a “spiritual” book. People can see the BoM through spiritual eyes without the aid of a magic rock.

  15. Michael P says:

    Thanks, Falcon, I knew there was a another source stating his face was in a hat. I wonder if Ralph knew this…

    As to Ralph talking about past fruits vs present/future fruits, he, as others have stated, misses the mark on this one. Yes, it is true we ought to look at what they have done unders Christ. My pastor is a great example– he used to sell drugs! But the trouble with Joseph was that he still manipulated after supposedly repenting.

    Was it hear that I read how something missing in the majority of his speeches/writings was his lowliness before God? What of his polygamy? Do you really think he was threatened death if he didn’t take on another wife?

  16. falcon says:

    Deut. 18:10-11 “There shall not be found among you…one who uses divination, one who pracitces witchcraft, or one who interprets omens or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.”

    What Joseph Smith was doing with his rock in the hat is called “scrying”. What scryers see depends on the medium they use. In Joseph Smith’s case it was a seer stone. If a scryer is using a crystal ball, for example, they go into a self-induced trance. The medium, like a rock in this case, serves as a focus for the attention, removing unwanted thoughts from the mind in the same way as a mantra. Once this stage is achieved, the scryer begins a free association with the perceived images suggested. The technique of deliberatelhy looking for and declaring these intial images aloud is done to deepen the trance state wherein the scryer hears his own disaasociated voice affirming what is seen within the concentrated state in a kind of feedback loop. This process culminates in the achievement of a final and desired end stage in which rich visual images and dramatic stories seem to be projected within the medium (seer stone) itself, or directly within the mind’s eye of the scryer, like an inner movie. This overall process reputedly allows the scryer to “see” relevant events or images within the chosen medium. Again, in Joseph Smith’s case it would be the seer stone.

    Mormon friends, this is the foundation of Mormonism. It appears “spiritual” to you and you’re getting all kinds of “impressions” from the spirit world. It isn’t coming from God. When you take it up a notch in the temple and see “spirits” of dead people through the veil, it’s not coming from God. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive people into thinking they are communing with God. Mormonism has been dressed-up to look very moral, beautiful and all around wonderful. Bait is meant to attract not repel the prey.

  17. germit says:

    Michael P: It was indeed here that I posted a challenge to all LDS listeners to give me their best example of JS being self-reflective for more than just an obligatory moment about his own sins. AND VIOLA: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING. No responses, no takers, nothing. What a total shocker that was. I know this is somewhat of a subjective matter, but to me how telling that JS could go for miles about the sins of all others, and his own get the shortest end of the shortest stick. Talk about a red flag, and believe me, I’m every bit as picky about TODAYS leaders in orthodox christianity as I’m being here. Hopefully not judgmental and “better than thou”, but discerning: Paul knew who he was, as did Peter et al. JS meanwhile was in search for leggings that looked Napoleonesque. GROSS.

  18. Berean says:

    I’ve been gone for a while on vacation. I also am teaching two nights a week on both of my off days at two churches so this is keeping me pretty busy which hasn’t left me much time for the blog. I’m sure some of our Mormon friends are happy about that. They probably don’t miss me, but I miss them!

    Regarding the issue of the magic hat in the rock and the authoritative sources to confirm it, I want to also add to what my good friend, Falcon, said and add in two more references that are very recent. Mormon Apostle Russell Nelson in the July 1993 issue of the Ensign confirms what David Whitmer stated in his address. Mormon historian and author Richard Bushman goes into great detail regarding Joseph Smith’s involvement with magic and how the BoM was translated especially in chapter 3 of his book “Rough Stone Rolling”. This is a bestseller at Deseret Books and Bushman is loved and respected among the LDS. He, like Todd Compton, are still in good standing with the LDS Church despite their brutally honest details regarding Joseph Smith as the founding prophet of the Mormon Church. Our Mormon friends here would be well advised to start doing some reading. This isn’t material that is negative against the church. It’s from their own people.

    See you soon.


  19. Michael P says:

    Germit, I thought the question very interesting, and the silence is telling. Maybe they have been too busy, but I think it speaks of the fruit JS put forth.

    The truth of the matter is simply that JS was a huge question mark before and after he wrote the book, and yes, he did write it. It was no translation, but rather a creation of his own mind. The evidence is too strong to suggest otherwise.

    Attempts at support by defending a remarkable closeness to various languages or quote from the Bible do not make it so. One can be had from reading and study (can’t forget taking directly from the Bible) and the other can be easilly misquoted.

    The Bible is the most powerful book in the world– both for good and for evil. It is true that many evils have been done in the name of the Bible, by taking quotes out of context. This is why taking Isaiah 29 doesn’t make the BoM true. One verse of the thousands cannot make it so. We need more than the one, and for virtually every significant prophecy in the Bible we find the theme repeated.

    Joseph Smith was no dummy, and that is something we can all agree on.

  20. Rick B says:

    GRCluff said

    If your foundation for truth is the Bible, you go to the KJV. If your foundation for truth is the Power of God as in 1 Cor 2:5, then you go to God in prayer. Even the 3 other books and the Ensign are meaningless without the Gift of the HG. That is what JS REALLY restored. It is just as real as the Bible, but a bit more difficult to use. Some people actually join the church and still don’t even know how real the gift can be…

    Acts 17:11 says THEY SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES TO KNOW IF THIS STUFF WAS TRUE. It does not say, skip the Bible and pray. Rick b

  21. Ralph says:


    I answered your question on the same day you asked it. Here is the reference again where JS admits to having sins, note what I have put in bold –

    JSH 1:28-29 During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three—having been forbidden to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavoured in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me—I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament. In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness and imperfections;

    This is found in the PoGP Joseph Smith History for all to read – as well as being scripture. I can’t remember where the other quotes are but there are others (one or two are in the D&C but I can’t remember off the top of my head and I am at work and do not have the time to look them up), and one in particular mentions that he had a problem with boasting.

  22. Andrea says:

    Cluff wrote,
    “You should have tried it a few more times– eventually you would remember it clearly.”

    That seems to be an extremely condescending statement, almost as though you are implying something… I was Mormon for 17 years and that was the only experience like that I ever had. Since the day my sins were washed away by the blood of the One and Only Christ, I have had the HS with me every day. Mormons teach that if you are bad, disobey God, break the commandments, the Holy Ghost will leave you. The Bible says as long as you have faith in Christ, He will be with you.

  23. Ralph says:


    When you said ”When you take it up a notch in the temple and see “spirits” of dead people through the veil…” you misunderstood what the person who said it meant. If you research into LDS ideology better you will find that we discuss more than one veil. Yes there is the veil in the temple, but we also teach that when we are born into this life our memories of the pre-mortal existence are hidden from us and this is described as a veil being pulled across our minds. Another veil is between us and the spirit world/afterlife so we cannot see the spirits that surround us. It is this latter veil that the person is talking about when they said that they saw somone through the veil – they were not talking about the veil in the temple. Sometimes this veil is removed from our sight for a reason. This is seen on the Mount of Transfiguration when Peter, James and John see Jesus talking with past prophets. This is seen when Elijah/Elisha (can’t remember which) asked God to show his assistant the armies that were assisting them to win. There are other instances in the Bible where this is discussed but I don’t think the word veil is used in the Bible specifically for this purpose, it’s modern usage.

    As for the ‘scrying’ and crystal balls, there is much I could go into with that, but that is not the theme for this blog. Besides, I know you would disagree with me on it so why should I bother explaining unless you are willing to listen to the explanation without arguing and just accept that that is what I believe. Needless to say about it, I agree with you that Satan does mimic God and His tools/ways/etc to suck people and remove them from God.

  24. Andrea says:

    I love that JS mentions the “weakness of youth, and foibles of human nature” and is sure to include the caveat “no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins”. He’s sure to never admit to more than the simple human foolishness we experience, once again painting a pretty picture of himself.
    So explain this to me, he told Emma that he was commanded to take more wives right? Yet, he kept the majority of his other marriages hidden from her and found out about one of them when she walked in on Joe and his teenage bride in bed copulating. You really should ask yourselves if a true prophet of God would lie like that. Which brings up another point. It is commonly accepted in Mormonism that JS had other wives -we know that he did- yet it is an historical fact that even up to his death JS denied ever being married to other women.

    I’m sorry, this post doesn’t have much to do with the BoM -I need to go work on my final comment for the day which has plenty of topical info.

  25. DJBrown says:

    This is my first time visiting this website. Many points have been made questioning the authenticity and truth of the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
    Consider this question- if you had a friend who knew nothing of Jesus Christ or of the Bible but was interested in learning more, would you refer them to critics of the Bible and Christianity who were eager to point out what they felt were inconsistencies? Or would you share with them your own personal experiences with the Savior and encourage them to read from the Bible? I believe the answer is obvious. Lines of arguement such as those found on this site will not result in true understanding or a meaningful determination of whether the Book of Mormon is true. Remember what Paul said “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (2 Corinthians 2:14). THE THINGS OF GOD ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. The existence of God is not determined by debate or in a court of law. Christ did not convince people with scientific proof or strict reason.

    How do you know the Bible is true? Tradition? Science? If you are a devout follower of Christ-you know the bible is true from personal experiences reading it, trying to live as Christ taught and feeling the sweet spirit that enters your life. “He (Christ) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matt 16:15-17).

    The only way to know if The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ is true is to read it will sincere intent and prayerfully plead with God to reveal its truth to you. Arguing about evidences may be interesting, but completely beats around the bush.

  26. Andrea says:

    When reading the entire chapter of Isaiah 29 (this would be known as reading in CONTEXT), it does not appear that verses 11-12 have ANYTHING to do with the BoM. It says “the vision (is) LIKE the words of a book” -this is what’s known as an analogy. The point of Is 29 is talking about how the people are so far removed from God even though they say they love him, that they are blind to the destruction that will come upon them because they aren’t listening to Him. Wait, maybe this does prophesy the BoM, and the Mormon faith. Consider verse 15 “You who hide deep from the Lord in your counsel, *whose deeds are in the dark,* and who say, ‘Who sees us? Who knows us?’ You turn things upside down!”

    Ralph said,
    “The most important thing is content and ‘fruit’ over context/history.” I disagree, as you would expect. Studying what went on in the times when the books of the Bible were written (context) helps us BETTER understand certain phrases and words and the overall content of the Bible. Does a detective look only at a death scene and make his conclusions from that? No, he interviews people and tries to find out what was going on to lead up to it. Context is ALWAYS important.
    ***To all the Mormons who read this: in the Bible (I don’t remember exactly where though, perhaps someone can help me out) God tells us not to simply accept what people put in front of us, but to measure the truth of it against Scripture. (The Bible does not say to simply pray about it and receive personal revelation.) When TBMs come up against something that contradicts their views, especially when it has already been tested against the Bible, they insist on their ‘personal witness’, which is the equivalent of shutting their eyes, putting their fingers in their ears and shouting “LA LA LA!” at the top of their lungs. (1 Peter 3:15)

    Alright, my post is too long so I will reveal the rest tomorrow. 🙂

  27. germit says:

    Sorry, but you have exceeded your daily comment limit [3] at Mormon Coffee.

    The following comment was not accepted …


    Ralph: when I posted my \”challenge\”, I said to myself that either no one would reply, or you would. So I am pleased, but not entirely surprised that you\’d give it a shot. As usual your post is honest and thoughtful. I don’t have time for a careful response , but I\’ll throw out a def.: FOIBLE- personal weakness; slight fault of character; syn: defect,error,failing,frailty, imperfection, infirmity,peccadillo, weakness. So JS, in an honest moment confesses to being frail, weak, and infirm. But nothing serious. I’ll follow up with this tomorrow, but again, I’m glad that at least one of the saints gave this a shot. GERMIT ps: for other verses that round out the devil: Eph 6:12 (ruler,authority); Rev9:11(king)1pet5:8(roaring lion); Luke11:15 (prince) the ‘god of this world’ (used only once in the bible)seems to fit as ‘ruler’ and not GOD,when compared to other scriptures. GERMIT

  28. falcon says:

    You’re mixing and matching when it comes to the spirit world. What Mormons are tapping into isn’t of God. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, the Bible tells us. You’re on dangerous ground. Like I said before, good bait gets the prey to act in a manner that is not in its own best interest.
    You said you’d tell me about crystal gazing but I wouldn’t accept what you believe and would argue with you. Ralph, I can accept that you believe something, but yes, I won’t accept what you believe. You’ve shared with us that you would steal or kill if the prophet directly told you to do so. I accept that you’d do such a thing, but I don’t accept killing or stealing for a “prophet”. You’ve defended Joseph Smith’s adultery with married women and adolescent girls. I accept that you think this is cool, but I don’t accept the practice and yes I’d argue with you about it.
    So if you think that scrying is acceptable practice, that’s fine. It doesn’t surprise me that you’d groove on it. You might even have your own magic rock. I wouldn’t doubt it. But no, I don’t accept scrying as of God. The Mormon church is built on an occult foundation. It was from the beginning. You’re into it. It makes you fell spiritual I’m sure. Satan will let you play on his playground.
    See here’s the bottom line for me. I don’t really care if Mormons wear magic underpants with Masonic symbols on them and have costume parties for the dead in the temple. I don’t care if Mormons want to follow a guy who was a serial adulterer and was up to his eyeballs in occult practices. You can even think you’re on your way to becoming a god and having your own planetary system. But don’t call it first century, original Christianity. That’s so bogus it’s laughable, but really tragic. The living God is available to all who call on him. To the reader: don’t exchange a counterfeit for the real thing.

  29. Michael P says:

    Ralph, a second veil, huh?

    Really, this does sound very much like the occult, and not Biblical Christianity. You again take a few obscure references to something in the Bible happening and make doctrine of it.

    The Bible is a powerful book, friend. Just be sure to use that power for good and not for evil. Right now, you are on the path to evil, the path that Joseph Smith started when he put his head in that hat.

  30. germit says:

    Ralph: this will be brief, don’t want to beat it to death. To anyone who has come eye to eye, or heart to heart, with the living, HOLY GOD, ALL their sins are SERIOUS AND MALIGNANT. If my 10 yr. grand daughter told me that she gave the above confession to Jesus and now wanted babtism, I would THANK her for wanting to be right with Jesus, and join His family by faith, but Gabrielle and I would have a little chat about what repentence is and isn’t. I don’t want to nitpick JS grammar, but to me this passage is like ‘part 2’of my post. “Nothing serious or malignant…” All I can say is that when this ‘through grace by faith’ thing finally made sense to me at 21, I knew I was filled with all manor of malignancy. Praise God for HIS redemptive surgery. Blessings. GERMIT

  31. Andrea says:

    Continuing my post from yesterday…

    Please consider 1 Cor 4:6, (using the KJ for obvious reasons) “And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” What is the authority for Christians? God and His Word. What is the authority for Mormons? JS, Brigham Young (wait, what about his Adam-God doctrine?), Spencer Kimball, Gordon Hinckley, Thomas Monson, Bruce McConkie, Hugh Nibley…

    JS received personal revelation that ” ‘the inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the quaker style and are quite general in style, or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.’ This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See’ whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.” Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. 3, p. 166

  32. DJBrown says:

    “By their fruits shall ye know them.” I first read the Book of Mormon when I was 18 years old. I was addicted to hard drugs, had run away from home, was deeply involved in crime, and was living a very permiscuous life. I had nothing to do with God. I didn’t know if he existed and didn’t care. I came across a copy of the Book of Mormon and began reading. I could not get enough. I read it cover to cover 6 times in 6 months. My whole life changed. I was convinced that Jesus Christ knew me and had offered himself as a sacrifice for me. I left my friends, quit drugs cold turkey, and began living a morally clean life. Every desire in my heart changed. I began attending the LDS services and joined them. I went to college, medical school, and became a surgeon. I have read the B of M roughtly 80 times since then. It has turned my life from night to day. I am happily married and have 4 beautiful daughters who love the Lord. I love the Savior and am so grateful for what He did for me, suffering so I could be clean.

    Many on this site make fun of and ridicule the Mormon belief in Christ and dismiss our faith. How do you explain the influence the Book of Mormon has had in my life? If it is really from satan- he has a very strange way of accomplishing his mission.

    My knowledge of the Book of Mormon is not simply a flutter in my chest or “burning in my bosom.” Immersing my life in the book has resulted in my overwhelming desire to base my life on the teachings of Jesus Christ, keep his commandments, and share with others his role as the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. I know the book is true as surely as I know anything.

    “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit… Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:18,20).

  33. Rick B says:

    DJBROWN said,

    How do you explain the influence the Book of Mormon has had in my life? If it is really from satan- he has a very strange way of accomplishing his mission.

    If Satan gets you to follow a false christ, god and prophet, then he did his Job. Their are so many problems will LDS theogly and it is a false Gospel, Gal 1:8-9.

    JW’s, Christan Science, Islam, Athiests, etc, all have changed lives, they all can say, they followed their god or moral code, and they will go to hell.

    Like your Story, My Mom Hates “Religion” and denys God and Jesus, yet she was a drunk, did drugs, was a biker momma, had me for a son, who had the cops over the house weekly and tried to kill two people, was kicked out of two schools and even had a restraining order put on my by a pastor of a church, yet she is not sober and clean. living a good moral life.

    I have Jesus in my life, am married with 3 kids, my marraige is going on 15 years now. Sharon has meet me, my wife and kids. yet my Mom and dad refuse to hear the Gospel even after seeing my life change, so what does your story prove? it does not prove truth. Rick b

  34. Rick B says:

    I said

    yet she is not sober and clean. living a good moral life.

    I meant to say, She IS clean and Sober, and she did it on her own. Rick b

  35. Michael P says:


    Lon Solomon, my pastor, (
    was into drugs, sold drugs, got his girlfriend pregnant, forced an abortion on her, was chased by the cops, and tried everything under the sun to find peace. It was not until he met a street preacher that changed his life. Now he heads a huge church in McLean, VA outside of Washington DC reaching hundred for Christ weekly.

    That the BoM saved you from your lifestyle is a great thing, but as Rick said, it does not prove it is true as we now have two examples of people being freed from such bondage through another mean.

    Do you wish to consider what the other source might be and why?

  36. Rick B says:

    I was into smoking Pot before I got saved, Some one gave me some pot laced with either Coke or PCP. They did not tell me this and I freaked out, Every time I smoked pot after that I freaked out, It got to the Point where I stopped cold turkey on my own years before I came to Christ.

    God did not free me from Pot, I stopped on my own, so again I am sure you will get more examples of this, so a changed life does not prove truth.

    then as has been said before, you prayed about the BoM being true, we prayed and felt God say it was false, we both cannot be correct, so prayer and a changed life does not mean it is true.

    If A changed life is evidence of or for true, please explain the millions of changed lives in the athiest group, and the various religions out their. LDS claim the RLDS and the FLDS are not real LDS, yet these groups claim they read the BoM and call JS a true prophet and had a changed life, yet you dont call the true LDS, so who is the correct view? Rick b

  37. Jeffrey says:


    Trying not to beat a dead horse..

    You said “How do you explain the influence the Book of Mormon has had in my life? If it is really from satan- he has a very strange way of accomplishing his mission.”

    This is in line with an article posted not long ago that an LDS authority said Satan is straight forward in his attacks on humankind. – To which I disagreed completely.

    First, It’s obvious Satan attacks us from every side. He does straightforward by using our sinful nature to murder, steal, cheat, lie, etc. – But, he is the ultimate deceiver as well, and in your case, he came from behind without you even realizing it. The Bible talks of wolves in sheeps clothing.

    In your past “troubled” life, Satan was winning over you, just one single person. No one would look at you and be like, wow, I want to be just like him. Therefore, Satan’s mission is stopped at you.

    However look at the potential he has with you now with spreading a false gospel that cant save. Your life is going well, which is great and I don’t want to take away from that.

    Think about Satan’s ultimate goal. Does he really care about our life on earth as much as he cares about where we eternally end up? I’m sure he is ever so willing to use your “good life” as an instrument to bring thousands of others into a false gospel that would eternally separate them from God. Strategically, that makes more sense than just creating turmoil in your own life that would only keep you alone from God.

    Things may taste good, feel good, smell good, sound good, everything pleasing under the sun to you ears, but on the inside of that “fruit” is the possibility of a poison that will kill you. So when you talk about people bearing fruit, its important to keep in mind to seek what the “nutritional value” of that fruit is instead of judging it by its cover. Thats the whole issue with Mormonism. Looks pretty on the outside, but on the inside its filled with spiritual death.

  38. falcon says:

    You said, “Many on this site make fun of and ridicule the Mormon belief in Christ and dismiss our faith.” Now what exactly does that mean? I don’t think you’re processing and understanding what’s going on here. First of all every Christian here, by my estimation, is sold out to Jesus Christ. But we won’t tolerate, for an instance, the degrading of our Savior. In Mormon theology Jesus is “a god”. One of a pantheon of gods out in the universe. To Mormons, Jesus is a spiritual by product of a mother god and a father god and the physical offspring of a sexual union between the Mormon heavenly father and a virgin named Mary. You need to encounter the real Jesus. The Jesus that saves us through the shed blood of the Cross.
    Now, I’m very happy you turned your life around, but that doesn’t make Mormonism true. People turn their lives around in AA by acknowledging a “higher power.” You showed up on this site for a reason. God is reaching out to you and wants you to come into fellowship with the real Jesus. Not a created being, or another god, but the living Christ.

  39. DJBrown says:

    My point was this: The Book of Mormon led me to forsake a life of sin and accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. This change occurred over a relatively short period of time and was very clearly the result of reading the B of M. It does not make sense that something created by the devil would lead a person to Christ.

    Based on your comments, am I to understand that a person’s life, desires, and behavior do not relate to his conversion to Christ? I have to disagree. I believe the scripture I quoted earlier that a good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit. In my example, the tree or thing being tested is the Book of Mormon, and the fruit was the change in my life. The fruit was very good, therefore the tree must be good too.

    What did Christ mean when he said “ye are the light of the world”? Did he not mean that a Christian’s way of living and the spirit of his life would provide an example and kind of invitation to others to learn of His gospel?
    These are basic principles that Christ taught repeatedly.

    What is the alternative? Let’s see- a person cannot rely on answers to prayer to guide his search for truth. Impressions and spiritual feelings must be disregarded. And he cannot conclude anything from the lives of other people. That leaves the intellect. So in order to find the truth and be saved, a person must be sophisticated enough to see through all the thousands of different claims and opinions regarding the Bible and simply come to the truth with his smarts.

    Do you see the irony? You rightfully esteem the bible very highly. But you are dismissing its source- “all scripture is given by inspiration” (II Timothy 3:16) All scripture comes from God communicating to his children. How does he communicate if not through prayer, the Holy Ghost, and revelation. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

  40. DJBrown says:

    Someone answer one simple question- How do you know the Bible is true?

  41. Eric the Red says:

    Several comments have been made about the wisdom of man vs. spiritual discernment (e.g., creeds are wisdom of man, 2 Corinthians 2:14). Is biblical interpretation the mere wisdom of man? Such a definition denigrates the Word of God to a meaningless document. Are you saying that the moment anyone interprets the Bible, it becomes the wisdom of man? Such understanding of spiritual discernment is skewed. The Bible is not a blank book that immediately fills with words when the Spirit works. It is not a jumble of meaningless letters that miraculously unscramble when the Spirit convinces. An unsaved person can derive the same meaning from Scripture that a believer can. He can parse verbs and diagram sentences. The issue is not his understanding of what is written, it is how he responds to it. If he is a dead man (Ephesians 2:1) then the Word will have no livening power. It is merely an ancient work of literature. But that does not mean that he cannot read it and give a valid interpretation. He will acknowledge the text to say that Jesus performed miracles, was crucified and resurrected, but it will not lead him to repentance and faith in Christ.

  42. Eric the Red says:

    Natural man can understand the claims of Scripture. The ramifications of these claims are what he is blind to. Mormons use “the Witness of the Spirit” to trump the Bible and even their own founders. This is not the witness of the Spirit! The Bible is a logical book. It is proof of who God is and how he works. When the Spirit affirms, he does not override what is written, he brings it to life in our hearts. The Pharisees witnessed facts just as the apostles did. The difference was that without the Spirit’s witness they were unable to believe these facts. John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. When John exhorts us to try the spirits, he writes down a standard by which we are to try them (1 John 4). I don’t ignore that written standard and pray for a proof apart from it. You cannot ignore an interpretation of Scripture by merely claiming it to be the wisdom of man. You cannot claim to have a Witness of the Spirit that ignores or runs contrary to God’s Word.

  43. Jeffrey says:

    Part 1

    DJ – “It does not make sense that something created by the devil would lead a person to Christ. ”

    I agree. Something created by the devil would ultimately lead them away from Christ. The LDS gospel has led you away from the True Jesus towards a false jesus. It has led you to a being in whom you believe is Christ, but isn’t.

    DJ – “Based on your comments, am I to understand that a person’s life, desires, and behavior do not relate to his conversion to Christ?”

    That is not what we were saying at all. It’s obvious all your behaviors started to come in line with the moral standards the LDS church asks its members to uphold. What you might not be understanding is just because you became a “good” person, doesn’t mean that your gospel is true, it just means you’re attempting to be like Christ, who in both Mormon and Christian eyes is someone who is all things good, perfected. Even though they are different Jesus’s, the Mormon Jesus mirrors the goodness of the Christian Jesus.

    DJ – “What did Christ mean when he said “ye are the light of the world”?”

    What you said after that is all true. But we must also realize that Satan has the power to deceive us into thinking we are being “Christ’s light” by leading a good example, but duping many into a un-saving gospel.

    DJ “What is the alternative? Let’s see- a person cannot rely on answers to prayer to guide his search for truth. Impressions and spiritual feelings must be disregarded.”

    Who said we can’t rely on answers to prayer and that impressions, feelings must be disregarded? I say that is a very faulty thing to just ONLY rely upon. Why? Because there are evil spirits that can be that “witness” to get you to continue believing something false. Also, our brain can manifest those feelings and we can perceive those to be spiritual out of desperation to “know” the truth. – It sounds like this one may be true in your situation.


  44. Jeffrey says:

    Sounds like you were spiritually and emotionally troubled with how bad your life was and you were searching for a way out, and the BoM happened to be what you picked up. Out of that desperation for a better life, you could have thought that burning in your bosom is something from God. But in that time of weakness, what better time would there be for Satan to seal the deal?

    So you see, the Holy Spirits witness to us is to be tested for that reason, not relied upon as the last and final say in the matter. So what has God given us to test “these things, hold fast to that which is good.” Answer? His Word. divinely inspired and divinely protected. It is in this manner that Christians test the doctrines of the LDS church. Which it contradicts over and over. God gave us our intellect and reasoning for a reason. He has shown himself to us in many ways. The world existing simply shows that there at least IS a supreme Creator. The Son came to earth to show us the way to Salvation, and that is faith in Christ and His sacrifice. Not masonic handshakes in a building through a sheet.

    So our intellect and God’s inspriation given to us through prayer work hand in hand, not against each other.

    I have prayed about the LDS church and God told me that it isn’t true. And many many others of different faiths pray about their own faith, and they too receive confirmation of its truth. So the LDS truth test is fallible.

    You seem to be judging the change in your life at face value, seeing as how it has made you better off as a person. You seem to be filled with values and morals. But since when does being moral and “good” (in humankind’s eyes) inherit you God’s kingdom? It doesn’t. For the Bible says that no man keeps God’s law (His commandments). For if you sin once, you are guilty of all.

    Praise Christ Jesus for he has cleared a debt we would never have been able to pay.

    I really do believe you came to this blog for a reason DJ, and I thank God that you did. This blog

  45. Arthur Sido says:

    Dj, you are falling into a common error, that your own apparent righteousness is proof of the truth of mormonism. I have a Christian friend who was a heroin addict most of his life until He was saved, and he is not only not a mormon but rejects its claims. We look at plenty of people and see good lives who aren’t mormons. You comments demonstrate a misunderstanding of the Gospel, that we are saved by His righteousness not by ours. It brings to mind a Scripture…

    “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)

    Place your faith in Christ and His righteousness, not in your own changed life.

  46. Eric the Red says:

    It is a moot point to debate how we evangelicals know the Bible is God’s Word, because Mormons believe the Bible to be God’s Word as well. If we concede and say, “Well, I just have a witness of the Spirit” that does nothing to legitimize Mormonism’s faith in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. For sake of argument, let’s say that we believe the Bible is true for the same reason that LDS believe the Book of Mormon is true- a witness of the Spirit. Now, we are on a level playing field, our mutual standard is a witness of the Spirit. So if we admit to the same standard for believing the Bible is true, there shouldn’t be any problem. The problem arises when further revelation (BOM, D&C, POGP, modern day prophets) contradict the Bible. Now, remember! We both believe because of a witness of the Spirit that the Bible is true. So if the same Spirit gives the same witness to a Mormon that the Bible and the BOM are the Word of God, then we have a serious dilemma for they contradict each other. Leave the BOM out of the equation and we still have a problem. Remember, we have a mutual proof of the Bible’s truth. The issue, then, is what does it say? Where are the mistranslations? What are the explanations, or the proofs for these mistranslations? For all the talk of love for the Bible, in Mormonism the Bible is little more than a redheaded stepchild. If the Spirit convinces you that the Bible is true, then he should be able to alert you to the errors in the Bible. Instead of debating how we know the Bible is true (when we both agree that it is), let’s talk about what it says. Although a person must ultimately have faith that the Bible is true, faith is not the exclusive reason for its truth. Its credentials stand above all other books.

    Sorry, Sharon for the earlier back to back posts. I was laboring under the misapprehension that the word limit for each post was 200 words. Wow! 2000 words. Whoo-hoo!

  47. GRCluff says:

    Rick B:

    You said:
    Acts 17:11 says THEY SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES TO KNOW IF THIS STUFF WAS TRUE. It does not say, skip the Bible and pray.

    You picked the wrong chapter in Acts. My perspective is supported very well in Chapter 2:

    Acts 2: 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, (could this be the HS?) and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you (note he did NOT say “accept Christ and be saved”, or “study the Bible more”.) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Hey, the Bible states my qualifications very well. The repentence, the baptism, and the gift of the HG are the real path to truth. If Peter were here today he would say “Skip the Bible, read the BoM first, it will lead to spiritual awakening without distraction”

    That is the context Peter would set.

  48. Arthur Sido says:

    GRCluff, as usual you skip the context to make your point and in doing so your argument borders on outright false witness. Peter makes his point by the Scriptures in verses 14-36, quoting from Joel and from the Psalms. He did NOT say, trust your feelings but used the Word to prove to people that Jesus was the Christ and THEN they were pricked in their hearts. Your characterization is outright dishonest. the Holy Spirit was indeed working in conjunction with the Word of God. John 4 tells us that God seeks those who worship Him in Spirit AND truth. You are all Spirit (a flase spirit I might add) and no truth.

    If Peter were here today he would point out that mormonism flies in the face of what the apostles and the Scriptures taught about the nature of God and man, or sin and justification, of what Peter himself and what Paul taught about justification by faith alone. The apostles constantly appealed to the Scripture, not to feelings.

  49. GRCluff says:


    The emphasis should be on the gift of the HG– that which true believers should recieve. That is the evidence Peter gives for accepting Christ.

    How can you continue to discount that gift as “feelings”. It is much more– it is pure intelligence and enlightenment. Without it the scripture cannot be understood correctly. With it the scriptures are not even necessary. The HG will teach “all things”. That is my experience on the matter.

  50. Berean says:


    I heard that you were on here violating Article #8 again (not translating the Bible correctly). It’s obvious that whatever spirit you have, and it’s not from the God of the Bible, that it’s not helping you in discernment of the scriptures.

    For the others that want to engage in sound Bible study, let’s look at Acts 2:38. The word “for” in this verse is the Greek word “eis”. This can mean “because of”. Water baptism would be because they HAD received salvation, not in order TO receive salvation. For example, “Because of the headache I had received from reading LDS manuals all day, I went to the store for Goody’s headache powder.” Get it? It’s simple. A problem arises for Mormons when they cross-reference this verse with Acts 10:44-47 (which none of them ever do). People receive the gift of the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism. I pointed that out to some young LDS missionaries when they said that nobody could have the Holy Ghost before baptism. Their reaction? They cried and started singing.

    Jesus referred to baptism as a work of righteousness in Matt 3:15. Paul separates baptism from the gospel in 1 Cor 1:17. It is the gospel that gives salvation (Rom 1:16). Not once in the gospel of John, written so that people could receive salvation, is baptism noted as a condition for salvation. People are commanded to believe (John 3:16,18,36).

    RickB picked the right chapter and verse. Cluff, with the Holy Ghost the scriptures aren’t necessary? That is revealing in itself. I’ve heard other Mormons say the same thing which is scary. If you want to know Jesus then do what he said in John 5:39 – search the scriptures! I see you are using new words such as “intelligence and enlightenment” in replace of revelation. I hate to tell you this, but once again LDS Church manuals on doctrine say you are wrong.

    “God will never give personal revelation that contradicts what has already been revealed in scriptures.” (LDS Manual “Preparing for Exaltation”, page 85)

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