There has been some discussion recently on another Mormon Coffee thread about the biblical definition of the word “Christian.” Some years ago I studied out this question. When I had my answer I wrote the following:
What is a Christian?
The word “Christian” is used 3 times in the New Testament.
“…And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.” Acts 11:26
“And Agrippa said to Paul, ‘In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?'” Acts 26:28
“Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.” 1 Peter 4:16
The Greek word, ‘Christianos,’ means simply “follower of Christ.”
What does it mean to follow Christ?
“And he said to all, ‘If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.'” Luke 9:23
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matthew 7:13, 14
“‘And you know the way to where I am going.’” Thomas said to him, ‘Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'” John 14:4-6
“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”’” Matthew 7:21-23
One who follows Christ is one who does the will of the Father.
What is the Will of the Father?
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40
“Then they said to him, ‘What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'” John 6:28, 29
“And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.” 1 John 3:23
The will of the Father is to believe in Christ.
What does it mean to believe in Christ?
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” James 2:19
“And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.'” Mark 1:23, 24
Clearly the belief of these demons, recognizing who Jesus is and understanding His presence, is not what Scripture refers to when we are told to “believe in Him.”
What does it mean to believe in Christ?
“…’The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'” Romans 10:8-13
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” John 3:18
“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1:12
Believing in Christ is not just a head knowledge, but requires complete trust and reliance on Christ, and Christ alone, for all that salvation means.
What is Salvation?
“But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.” Romans 5:8, 9
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24
“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.” Colossians 1:21, 22
Salvation, then, is being justified by Christ’s blood, saved from the wrath of God, passing from death into life, being presented unto God holy and pure.
Where is Salvation’s Eternity?
“If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.” John 12:26
“…If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father…” John 14:28
The eternal dwelling place of those saved through Christ is in God’s presence, in His kingdom.
What is a Christian?
A Christian is a follower of Christ. A follower of Christ is one who does the will of the Father. The will of the Father is believing in Christ. Believing is not merely acknowledging, but trusting Christ alone for personal salvation. Personal salvation is being reconciled to God, having the promise of spending eternity in His presence.
The relevant question we are tempted to ask here, then, is “According to the biblical definition, are Mormons Christians?” This is not a question we can answer; thirteen million Mormons represent thirteen million different hearts. We can, however, look at the LDS faith system and examine the gospel it promotes. We can determine if Mormonism helps or hinders a person who desires to be a true follower of Christ.
Setting aside, for this discussion, the question of who the Christ of Mormonism actually is, my erstwhile essay on the biblical definition of “Christian” continued,
As we have seen, God has a specific definition attached to the word ‘believe’ when He reveals salvation and His Son to us in Scripture. Mormon doctrine does not allow for the granting of personal salvation to those who trust in Christ alone to be reconciled to God.
[Consider what] Brigham Young taught:
“no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289)
“All those who believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Joseph Smith is a true Prophet, at the same time trying with their might to live the holy principles Joseph the Prophet has revealed, are in possession of the Holy Spirit of God and are entitled to a fullness.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312)
The Book of Mormon…says:
“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23)
Joseph Smith, the LDS Priesthood, personal worthiness…Mormonism teaches that God requires all of this (and more) to be added and combined with Christ, in order for an individual to gain a place in God’s presence for eternity. Therefore, based on my understanding of the biblical definition of “Christian,” I regard Mormonism to be a severe obstruction for any Latter-day Saint longing to follow Christ.
Sharon,
” What is a Christian?
The word “Christian” is used 3 times in the New Testament.
“…And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.” Acts 11:26
“And Agrippa said to Paul, ‘In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?’” Acts 26:28
“Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.” 1 Peter 4:16
The Greek word, ‘Christianos,’ means simply “follower of Christ.”
What does it mean to follow Christ?
“And he said to all, ‘If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.’” Luke 9:23
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matthew 7:13, 14
“‘And you know the way to where I am going.’” Thomas said to him, ‘Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 14:4-6
“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”’” Matthew 7:21-23
One who follows Christ is one who does the will of the Father.
What is the Will of the Father?
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Cont.
“Then they said to him, ‘What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’” John 6:28, 29
“And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.” 1 John 3:23
The will of the Father is to believe in Christ.
What does it mean to believe in Christ?
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” James 2:19
“And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.’” Mark 1:23, 24
Clearly the belief of these demons, recognizing who Jesus is and understanding His presence, is not what Scripture refers to when we are told to “believe in Him.”
What does it mean to believe in Christ?
“…’The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” Romans 10:8-13
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” John 3:18
“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
(cont.)
Cont.
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1:12
Believing in Christ is not just a head knowledge, but requires complete trust and reliance on Christ, and Christ alone, for all that salvation means.
What is Salvation?
“But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.” Romans 5:8, 9
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24
“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.” Colossians 1:21, 22
Salvation, then, is being justified by Christ’s blood, saved from the wrath of God, passing from death into life, being presented unto God holy and pure.
Where is Salvation’s Eternity?
“If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.” John 12:26
“…If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father…” John 14:28
The eternal dwelling place of those saved through Christ is in God’s presence, in His kingdom.
What is a Christian?
A Christian is a follower of Christ. A follower of Christ is one who does the will of the Father. The will of the Father is believing in Christ. Believing is not merely acknowledging, but trusting Christ alone for personal salvation. Personal salvation is being reconciled to God, having the promise of spending eternity in His presence.” End quote.
I can only say, Amen.
Let me take this up a notch. “Who is Jesus?” If someone doesn’t get that right, they’re not a Christian. Jesus is not the spirit offspring of a father/mother god. He is the eternal God manifested in the person of Jesus Christ. He is not “a god”. He is thee God. It makes a difference regarding whether someone is a Christian and more importantly, if they have eternal life by placing their trust in Him. An “a god”, a created being cannot provide salvation and eternal life. In order to provide for the substitutionary atonement the sacrifice had to be spotless and without blemish. Only God fits that description.
We read in the BoM, Supposedly the Most correct Book ever Written. And According to A of F 8, it is above the Bible as being MORE ACCURATE than the Bible. Any way we read in
Ok, First off, notice in these verses they use the Word Christian This is a problem, if the Book of Acts is to be true, Why? In my copy of the BoM dated 1920 Down the bottom of the page, it dates these happenings to be Both BC 72 AND 73 If they were called Christians After the death and resurrection of Christ, how Could this occurrence of the Word Christian, take place before Christ was around?
Now lets look at what the word Christian first meant.
Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary – christian
The name given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers
of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch. The names by which the disciples were
known among themselves were “brethren,” “the faithful,” “elect,” “saints,”
“believers.”
Cont:
But as distinguishing them from the multitude without, the name
“Christian” came into use, and was universally accepted. This name occurs but
three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16).
Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary
And Wikipedia:
“Christian” was at first a derogatory term meaning “Christ-like ones” related to persecution, but early Christians were taught by their leaders to bear that name proudly. Previously, they had no specific name for their faith, and so they simply referred to it as “the way”.
Now if we look back through the Bible, starting back in Genesis, We Find God created man and women.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
No mention of them being Christians. They are believers in God. Then we read in Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
God made Abraham the father of many Nations. Now we find we have Gentiles (Non-Jewish) People, and the Jewish people. Again no mention of CHRISTIANS. Their is only Jews and Gentiles. If the Gentiles convert to Judaism they are simply followers of God, Not Christians.
Once we get into the new testament, We find, before the Death of Christ, they still are simply followers of God. Then after the Resurrection, we find only 3 times is the word Christian used. And as I stated above, it first started out as a derogatory term. The 3 times we see the word Christian used are
Acts 11: 26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
I may not contribute a lot on this blog yet it amazes me how much I can learn from reading it. My hat is off to Berean, Germit, Sharon and the many other contributors that actually do the research and lay out many ideas I had not thought of. It is making the transition from lds to non-lds very comforting. Keep up the great work.
Sharon that is a great post. I especially appreciated this commment:
“The relevant question we are tempted to ask here, then, is “According to the biblical definition, are Mormons Christians?” This is not a question we can answer; thirteen million Mormons represent thirteen million different hearts. We can, however, look at the LDS faith system and examine the gospel it promotes. We can determine if Mormonism helps or hinders a person who desires to be a true follower of Christ.”
This blog and others should not be viewed as an indictment of mormons, but rather a critique of mormonism. I don’t know what any individual mormon believes, and clearly there are mormons who are God’s elect (case in point: me!) Just like anyone else, we should seek to proclaim the revealed Christ to mormons no differently than we do anyone else in this lost and dying world. But clinging to faith as a mormon does not make one a Christian.
The concern of Christians who seek to witness to mormons is not (at least it shouldn’t be) to prove them wrong, but to show them Christ, to take their zeal and turn it to the Christ of the Bible. Mormonism is not a path to Christ, but a path to a different gospel that has no power to save. No matter how many times the name of Christ is invoked, if you fail to recognize who He revealed Himself to be, you cannot truly be one of His followers (see Matt 16:13-17). The real issue is not who is right or who is wrong, but how is a sinner made right with God. The Bible tells us that we are justified by our faith in Christ, and by His imputed righteousness alone. That is the message we should be sending in our discussions with mormons to set aside their self-reliance and their good works, and place their faith in the sovereign Lord of the universe, God in flesh, Jesus Christ.
Sharon said in the article –
”A Christian is a follower of Christ. A follower of Christ is one who does the will of the Father. The will of the Father is believing in Christ. Believing is not merely acknowledging, but trusting Christ alone for personal salvation. Personal salvation is being reconciled to God, having the promise of spending eternity in His presence.”
Interesting, but I see nothing about believing in a ‘Trinity’ in this statement, which is one of the big arguments that is usually given on this site about LDS not being Christian.
But if we look at what RickB has dredged up we find that the ORIGINAL Biblical meaning is just –
Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary – christian
The name given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers
of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch. The names by which the disciples were
known among themselves were “brethren,” “the faithful,” “elect,” “saints,”
“believers.” But as distinguishing them from the multitude without, the name
“Christian” came into use, and was universally accepted. This name occurs but
three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16).
Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary
As I have said, when they came around to round up the Christians for the circus, they would not sit there and interrogate the person to find out exactly how they believed in Jesus, they would just find out yes or no if they believed and then they were Christian. As we know all of the epistles were written to stop wrong teachings and beliefs in the early church so not everyone believed the same, and some believed in “works assisted grace” (as you like to put it) as we LDS do. So what is the original Biblical meaning? A follower and believer of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Redeemer. It does not have any other attachments/clarifications to it.
Probably one of the most important questions found in the Bible is still relevant today. It’s in Matthew 22:42 where the Lord even asked the question:
“What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?”
That is very important when talking with Mormons or any person of any other faith for that matter. What a person believes about Christ can decide whether or not that person has eternal life or eternal damnation in outer darkness. If one has the wrong Jesus they are lost for all eternity.
There was a problem with the Jesus ID problem even in the early church. If there wasn’t, then Paul never would have said what he did in 2 Cor 11:4 or Gal 1:6-9. There were false Christ’s and prophets then and even more so today. Satan has gotten very cunning in how he disguises fake Jesus’. Each cult and abstract religion has their form of Jesus. There is only one correct Jesus.
Why isn’t the word “Trinity” in the definition? This is a term brought about later to describe in one word a series of scriptures throughout the OT & NT that shows the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are God, co-equal, co-eternal, one nature but three persons. This belief is the center of Christianity. In Mormonism they are three separate gods without equal attributes.
Is “eternal progression” or “celestial/eternal marriage” in the Book of Mormon? No. But it’s a fundamental teaching of Mormonism.
Christ followers believe in what the Trinity means. Those that didn’t were not considered Christians, but were instead labeled “heretics” in the early church. Mormons must choose what label they want. If you follow what Joseph Smith said (three gods), then by default you choose “HERETIC” – not Christian.
Not alot of time this morning. I’ll just leave you a scripture out of the Book of Mormon I just happen to come across this morning.
Helaman 3:27-28
Thus we may see that the Lord is merciful unto all who will, in the sincerity of their hearts, call upon his holy name.
Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.
BAM,
Nice quote, but I’m going to keep pounding my theme because it’s fundamental to any discussion of Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. That is, who is Jesus? Now my understanding is that the BoM, which you quote, is more a reflection of 19th century evengelical Christian revivalism which Joseph Smith was influenced by than it is a reflection of later Mormonism in doctrine and practice. That is why at least one sect of Mormonism rejects Joeseph Smith and sees him as a fallen prophet in his post 1832 Book of Commandments stage. So which is it? Either the BoM is wrong in it’s more traditional view of the nature of God and Jesus or Joseph Smith’s subsequent “revelations” are wrong.
Anyone who is depending on the current Salt Lake City based Mormon Church doctrinal view of the nature of God and Jesus for their salvation, are placing their hopes on a false god and a false Jesus. The fact that Joseph Smith’s view of God and Jesus “evolved” ought to be a headsup to LDS members who are worshiping a god who once was a man and depending on a Jesus who is the spirit child of a male-god who progressed to godhood from being a man and his goddess wives of which the father god can have many.
In the five points of Mormonism i.e. Joseph Smith is a prophet, BoM is true, LDS one true church, current prophet is the real deal, NUMBER FIVE is “Jesus”. The Mormon Jesus doesn’t even get top billing and is offered as an add on to “Christian” the religion up a little. The Mormon approach is to take prospects to that little grove of trees where Joseph supposedly had his vision (pick your version of the vision because JS had several). The Christian approach is to take people to the Cross. To the Christian it’s all about the real Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. He became sin for us and through his sacrifice we obtain the gift of eternal life. That’s what a Christian is. We depend entirely on Christ from the start for our salvation.
First lets look at a few verse we find in the Bible.
Ok, Paul here states that there is ANOTHER GOSPEL, Mormonism teaches this “Other” Gospel.
I find it really funny, Mormons can call themselves “Christian” Even though we clearly have vastly different beliefes, Yet the LDS refuse to call the FLDS, RLDS or other LDS off-shoot groups Mormons. Why is that?
The FLDS and RLDS and other off shoots of LDS have closer beliefes to those of the LDS than the LDS and Christians, Example, Christians do not believe in the other 3 standerd works like the BoM, D and C or the Pearl of great price. The FLDS believe the Teaching of D and C 132 not the Christians, and the teaching of D and C 132 is in the D and C which Mormons “LDS” believe.
So why is it with such great differences in beliefes the Mormons can say they are Christians, But the FLDS and RLDS, with closer beliefes are not Mormon? I did a topic called (WHAT IF) On my blog. I pointed out how If I as a christian were to dress as a mormon missionary and preach my beliefes the LDS would get mad and say I am not a real LDS member, yet LDS can call themselves Christian, and teach way different views to what I believe, Why is this? Rick B
Truth seeker,
“I may not contribute a lot on this blog yet it amazes me how much I can learn from reading it. My hat is off to Berean, Germit, Sharon and the many other contributors that actually do the research and lay out many ideas I had not thought of. It is making the transition from lds to non-lds very comforting. Keep up the great work.”
It is a difficult, jarring transition but it is worth it to know Jesus Christ! God bless you in your recovery from mormonism, please know that many of us who post here have walked the same path and are praying for you and the multitude of others who are finding freedom from mormonism.
Berean said:
“Each cult and abstract religion has their form of Jesus. There is only one correct Jesus.”
“Christ followers believe in what the Trinity means. Those that didn’t were not considered Christians, but were instead labeled “heretics” in the early church. Mormons must choose what label they want. If you follow what Joseph Smith said (three gods), then by default you choose “HERETIC” – not Christian.”
Must I constantly follow you around to correct your errors and signifcant omissions? Lets try this again:
“Each cult, abstract religion, and mainstream Christian has their form of Jesus. There is only one correct Jesus.”
“Heritics believe in what the Trinity means. Real Christians that didn’t were persecuted and killed for their faith in the true Christ, just like the apostles. Mormons must choose what label they want. If you follow what Joseph Smith said (the true God), then by default you choose “CHRISTIAN” – not Heritic.”
Just so you know, the topic of this tread is an “Exclusion by Definition” tactic.
To steal a phrase from “Are Mormons Christian” (I am learning to put my reference at the beginning of my quote to avoid inadvertant plagerism when I hit 2000 characters):
He who defines a term controls a term. For example, if the Latter-day Saints defined the term Christian to mean “one who believes in the divine calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith and in the inspired nature of the Book of Mormon,” then they would be technically correct (based on their own private definition of the term) in concluding that only Latter-day Saints are Christians. It is unlikely, however, that the rest of the world would agree with such a parochial and distorted definition, and Latter-day Saints would likely (and rightly) be accused of trying to stack the deck through the manipulation of language. For Mormons to define Christians as “people who believe what Mormons believe” and then conclude that non-Mormons aren’t Christians would be nothing more than to say that non-Mormons aren’t Mormons -without any consideration for what they may or may not believe about Jesus.
In fact, this manipulating of terms is exactly what does in excluding the Latter-day Saints from consideration as Christians. They define Christian not in the generic sense of common usage, but in a narrow sectarian sense that excludes anyone whose doctrine differs from their own. Individuals who wouldn’t tolerate a denominationally exclusive definition of the term Christian if it excluded them will often accept such a tactic if the tables are turned and the trick is played on someone else. Thus on the surface these individuals seem to be making the very serious charge that the Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ or do not attempt to follow his teachings, but in reality they are only saying that LDS .
Arthur said, “The concern of Christians who seek to witness to mormons is not (at least it shouldn’t be) to prove them wrong, but to show them Christ, to take their zeal and turn it to the Christ of the Bible.” Amen!
Cluff quoted, “For example, if the Latter-day Saints defined the term Christian to mean “one who believes in the divine calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith and in the inspired nature of the Book of Mormon,” then they would be technically correct (based on their own private definition of the term) in concluding that only Latter-day Saints are Christians.” I have to do some mental gymnastics to believe that statement. How can “one who believes in the divine calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith and in the inspired nature of the Book of Mormon” be the definition of ‘Christian’ when Christ isn’t even mentioned in that???
What I’m reading in Sharon’s post isn’t just saying that the LDS do not believe in Jesus and therefore cannot be called Christian. We are in this very post defining what Christian means and Sharon has done that using Scripture. It is the Jesus of the Bible and His -and His alone- ability to save us that Mormon doctrine draws away from. That is why we shall not call Mormons “Christian”. Jesus is not at the center of what you do, JS’s commands and rituals are -those works are shrouded in a thin veil with the letters j-e-s-u-s on them, but I do not believe they have the real Jesus who is the Christ in them.
Along with my “what if” idea, how come LDS want to be called Christian, yet then turn and say, the bible cannot be fully trusted because it is missing plain and precious parts and it was not been translated correctly.
then the founding prophets and LDS said this about christians,
B Young:
3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor)
Heber C. Kimball
(J.O.D 5:89)
JS,BY, And others did not seem to think Mormons are Christians, so why the big change? Rick b
Hello all.
This is a good post, and I think it gets to the heart of the distinction in all we have to do to be with God. I think this is why all to often discussiong with Mormons end up discussions of works v faith.
Its also hard to ignore the fact that Joseph SMith is the one that grants “passports”.
cluff,
“They define Christian not in the generic sense of common usage, but in a narrow sectarian sense that excludes anyone whose doctrine differs from their own. Individuals who wouldn’t tolerate a denominationally exclusive definition of the term Christian if it excluded them will often accept such a tactic if the tables are turned and the trick is played on someone else.”
Well that is patently false. I don’t define a Christian as someone who believes exactly as I do. I hold some pretty strong theological distinctives, many of which other Christians do not hold. Not agreeing with me completely doesn’t mean they aren’t Christians (it just means they are wrong!) This is similar to the mormon defense that the number of Christian denominations is proof of mormonism, which is just as silly. What Christians are united by are core beliefs we hold in common: the divinity of Christ, the inerrancy of Scriture, justification by faith, substitutionary atonement. These things unite us. Even though a Presbyterian couldn’t join the Baptist church I am a member of, we are still all Christians. we are united by a common belief and confession of Christ. It is the Biblical revelation of Christ as the eternal Son of God that we hold to and that is what defines us as Christians, and what excludes mormons from that definition.
Arthur and Andrea:
Lets define context for a moment so we can avoid a couple context errors that have appeared in your posts.
Perhaps it is my fault, because I had some problems getting the site to accept brackets.
The quote from “Are Mormons Christians” should go like this:
In fact, this manipulating of terms is exactly what (this thread) does in excluding the Latter-day Saints from consideration as Christians. (This thread) define(s) Christian not in the generic sense of common usage, but in a narrow sectarian sense that excludes anyone whose doctrine differs from their own. Individuals who wouldn’t tolerate a denominationally exclusive definition of the term Christian if it excluded them will often accept such a tactic if the tables are turned and the trick is played on someone else. Thus on the surface (this article)seems to be making the very serious charge that the Latter-day Saints do not believe in Jesus Christ or do not attempt to follow his teachings, but in reality they are only saying that LDS (don’t believe the all same things as they do).
That should make a little more sense.
So when Andrea said:
“We are in this very post defining what Christian means and Sharon has done that using Scripture. It is the Jesus of the Bible and His -and His alone- ability to save us that Mormon doctrine draws away from.”
she is attempting to define the term “Christian” as narrowly as possible to EXCLUDE Mormons. And is she doing so with statements that are in error. She makes assumptions that Mormons will not agree with.
What do you mean “Mormon doctrine draws away from Christ’s ability to save?” Dead wrong.
Let me read you the text on my Baptismal Invitation:
“Please join us as GRCluff accepts the invitation to come unto Christ by being baptised a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.
Our disagreement lies in our definition of the term “save”, which SHOULD have nothing to do with the word “Christian”.
On my other posts, I am finding a disturbing trend. I find that when I reference Christ’s words from the New Testament more often than not the rebuttal comes from Paul’s writings.
I have developed a general rule of thumb when reading the scriptures. If there seems to be a contradiction in meaning, I give priority to the Saviors words.
Because so much of what evangelicals seem to believe comes from Paul’s writings- often it would seem to the neglect of the Savior’s- would it be correct to assume that you worship Paul?
Arthur said:
“What Christians are united by are core beliefs we hold in common: the divinity of Christ, the inerrancy of Scriture, justification by faith, substitutionary atonement. These things unite us.”
This is a statement that defines Christian not in the generic sense of common usage, but in a narrow sectarian sense that excludes anyone who might have a minor disconnect on any of your core beliefs that unite. You said that statement was patently false, but it is patently TRUE.
Not all Christians will buy the justification by faith concept, like all Catholics, for example? And if the divinity of Christ means he was born to a virgin and his real genetic father was God, then Mormons are the only ones who could be Christian with you.
You just can’t take a broad term that has been used broadly for centuries and re-define it narrowly to leave out Mormons. Any way you redefine it will leave out a lot more people that us. Sorry. Can’t do it. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
A broad, widely used term like Christian DEMANDS to be used in the generic sense of common usage. Why? Because it can’t be redefined over and over again based on whoever might be using it.
If Catholics were to take the same approach with Protestants, they would begin to insist that only Catholics can be called Christian. Anytime you tell someone that you are Protestant, they will look at you funny and say “Ohhh I heard that Protestants were not Christian!” Pretty rediculous? Yes. So stop it.
Grcluff said
LDS deny the trinity, grace alone, they believe in added books and revelations etc, and they want to be called “christian”.
I deny all of what LDS believe since I believe in grace alone, I believe in the trinity, the Bible alone Etc, so I guess I can be called a mormon and have the lds pristhood.
So from now on I will tell people I am a member of the LDS church and I teach a restored gospel, My restored gospel will consist of telling people that is is Grace alone in Christ that saves, the Bible alone is the only true source of scripture that is needed, I believe in ONE GOD ONLY, And that God is Jesus in the flesh.
So I guess I am a member of the LDS church that has the true gospel. Rick b
Why shouldn’t the definition be exclusive, GR Cluff?
Oh Cluff,
“Not all Christians will buy the justification by faith concept, like all Catholics, for example? And if the divinity of Christ means he was born to a virgin and his real genetic father was God, then Mormons are the only ones who could be Christian with you.”
I stand by my statement regarding justification by faith alone not to be a big meanie, but because the Bible makes it clear that man is justified by faith and not works. And since mormon leaders historically taught that God copulated with Mary, that means she wasn’t a virgin.
“You just can’t take a broad term that has been used broadly for centuries and re-define it narrowly to leave out Mormons. Any way you redefine it will leave out a lot more people that us. Sorry. Can’t do it. WRONG WRONG WRONG.”
The Gospel IS exclusive, it IS a divider. It confronts people with truth and demands a person make a stand one way or the other, it is the “narrow way”. It is not a “big tent” faith. It includes people of all sorts, but all of them are united by a common faith in Christ, a faith not shared by mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses or any of the myriad other faith groups who deny the divinity of Christ. Christ is divine not because He was spawned by an exalted man and his spirit wife, but because He is very God of God, fully human and fully divine at the same time (aka hypostatic union). He is eternal, uncreated, of the same nature as God. He took on flesh to dwell among us, but He did so not because He had to but rather so that He could be a propitiation for the sins of His people. You can’t believe in whatever you like and still be a Christian, it is not a cafeteria style religion and no matter how many times you type “WRONG”, it doesn’t change that truth.
OK, OK I give. Please, I cry uncle. I am no longer Christian, I am Mormon.
That introduces a few questions to consider.
If you are not Christian, why does the name of your Church include the name Jesus Christ?
Well, that is the name He gave us to use.
Who gave you that name?
Jesus did, when he was talking with our prophet.
So, your prophet talks to Jesus, but you are not Christian?
Yes, In fact, Jesus is the real leader of our Church, our prophet just takes direction from him from time to time.
So, the person AT THE HEAD of your Church is Jesus Christ himself, but you are not Christian?
Yes, I guess so.
How can that be?
Well, the people who control the meaning of the term defined it too narrowly to let us use it.
How did they do that?
They used the Bible.
Well, wasn’t Jesus, the same person who is at the head of your Church, somehow involved in creating the Bible?
Yes, but He somehow left out some important things that he wants us to believe today.
Isn’t that the Bible’s fault, or the the people who created in the Bible?
Yes, but we still don’t control the meaning of the term.
Shouldn’t Jesus Christ, the head of your Church control the meaning of the term Christian?
Hmmm. You are right. Maybe I will use the term anyway.
Why doesn’t Christ come down and tell the world who the real Christians are?
He does that all the time, through the Holy Spirit, but the idiots on this thread don’t seem to be listening.
That should be their problem not yours.
Right you are, sorry for the confusion.
Cluff, Cluff…all in a huff…seriously now here is an example of what you just referred to. Read Doctrines and Covenants Section 84. Jesus specifically revelates to Joseph Smith that a temple will be built in his generation in Independence, Missouri.
I live there…no temple was ever built…safe to say that generation has all died…so which one lied? Jesus or Joseph? Not a hard question…
Cluff, getting a bit testy?
Not to push you even further, but here’s a few questions for you to ponder:
Are you sure it is Jesus who told you to use that name? There are many demons out there who we should test before we believe them. So, are you sure this “Jesus” really was Jesus?
Are you sure your prophet talked to the real Jesus? See LDSstitanic’s evidence that he may not be a prophet. He said many things that are proven to be untrue, and his prediction of the civil war haredly counts as a prophecy, so are you sure you can believe him when he says he talked to Jesus. Or maybe it was “Jesus”, the demon we are to test from my question #1? What do you think?
I thought Monson was at the head of your church. What has he given that was definately from Jesus? What of his predecessor? And his? Are you sure their talking to Jesus, or “Jesus’?
Ah, so now you blame others for rebuking your claim to the term “Christian” when it is a distinct possibility the Jesus is but “Jesus” and should be tested (oh and before I forget, tested with something more than that burning).
And now we are to question if things were left out of the Bible. I am confident its all there, why aren’t you? Did ‘Jesus’ tell you? The same Jesus who said it is finished jsut before he died on the cross? The same Jesus who Paul writes about and says that all we need is him? The same Jesus himself who says all we need is him?
Why doesn’t Christ come down and tell us? Here, you are right. He did, and does. We do find it in the Bible, the very book that is second fiddle to the BoM, the book written to finish what he already said was finished. And if you listen to what he has to say, you’ll see your prophet really talks to “Jesus”.
Sorry if you don’t like this, but friend, there cannot be multiple definitions of Christian. Only one of us can be Christian. But if you really want to use the term, have at it. But you’re telling a lie.
Our disagreement lies in our definition of the term “save”, which SHOULD have nothing to do with the word “Christian”.
CLUFF: are you feeling OK? You didn’t get your 9 hrs of BYU extra credit with this kind of brain power. If the definitions of ‘salvation’ DON’T MATTER when it comes to defining ‘christian’ than what does ?? I’ve asked this question only a zillion times here at MC, but are you, CLUFF and others (BornAgain) comfortable with putting your arms of common fellowship around ANYONE who mouths the words ‘I believe in Jesus Christ for my salvation’ NO MATTER WHAT THEY MEAN BY THOSE WORDS??? And of course, it’s not only ‘salvation’ that is a key player here: grace, atonement, the work of Christ, and on…these words and more are defined in far diff. ways by the LDS (and many other groups) compared to orthodoxy. Sido’s comment is too restrictive FOR YOU, but you don’t want to give us (up front for all to see), YOUR restrictions. You are not the relativists that some of the New Agers are, I know the restrictions are there (not a problem to me, really, truth claims come with restrictions) what bugs me is your PRETENDING that you (LDS) don’t have them . Back to AARON and the lipstick lady: own up to your religion, folks, it isn’t nearly as ecumenical as you make it sound. GERMIT
PS:
and the ‘minor disconnect’ is only ‘minor’ to the one who wrote that quote. he or she can trivialize doctrinal distinctions, but our list of essentials has stood firm for thousands of years (I know this invites Catholic/Protestant comparisons, but I still hold it to be true); the LDS cannot make the same claim, you even brag about the inconsistency, a la ‘new revelation’ for this age.
Sharon,
This post is one of the best I have ever read on the subject. Thanks for writing about this. It is posts like this one which make me come back for more.
GRCluff said
GRluff Are you aware that in the early days, your Church was simply called (The Church Of Christ). So why would Jesus come along and Change it? Or Did He?
Then you said
When did this happen? during the first vision? If so, which of the nine first vision account did it take place?
Then you said
Really? From what I understand, Jesus told JS He would remain till the Lord returned, but in fact was killed in jail, False Prophecy?
Then after his death, Jesus never cleared the issue of, was it his son or BY to take the role, hence the split in the church, and depends on who you ask, which is true, the LDS verses the FLDS.
Then as other Christians have said already, What has the Lord clearly stated to any of the last 10 prophets that has come to pass in great detail?
Then you said,
According to JS in the D and C, Jesus/God COMMANDED JS and Sidney R to retranslate the Bible, now we have the J.S.T of the Bible. Sadly LDS rarly use it, and it is debated as to if JS really completed it. So even their God or JS failed again.
then you said
Seems simple to me, Unplug your ears and start listing.
cluff said to me, “What do you mean ‘Mormon doctrine draws away from Christ’s ability to save?'” That’s not what I said. Mormonism has nothing to do with Christ’s ability to save -what I mean is that Christ is the ONLY way to be saved and Mormon doctrine (temples, “by grace we are saved after all we can do”, etc) draws away from that fact.
My brain was tired on Friday and I wasn’t writing my posts very well, so I need to expand on my statement about Sharon’s definition of Christian as well. I agreed with Sharon’s approach of defining “Christian” by using scripture in the Bible -it seems an appropriate source (indeed, I think it is THE source to be consulting). If you feel that the definition concluded from scripture is narrow so as to exclude Mormons, well, then, I can’t answer that. Our definition of Christian excludes you; your definition of Christian excludes us. Mormons want to be called Christian (despite the early leaders’ opposition) because they see themselves as the true, you guessed it first century Christians, and we ev’s are not, according to Nephi. But it seems to be that modern-day Mormons do consider us to be Christian as well, so my question to you, cluff -but other LDS can feel free to answer as well- is what is your definition of Christian? I do agree with Michael and germit –why shouldn’t Christian be an exclusive definition?
Oh, and thank you for calling me an idiot –it’s okay, I still love you.
One more question cluff, ” If you are not Christian, why does the name of your Church include the name Jesus Christ?
Well, that is the name He gave us to use.
Who gave you that name?
Jesus did, when he was talking with our prophet.”
Can you show me where I can find this? I was not aware of this information.
Cluff, I prefer would prefer if you would use “idjit” when referring to me.
The problem with your line of reasoning is two-fold. Lots of Christian churches have the name of Christ in their title, and they teach something completely different than mormonism so the name on the sign is hardly a decent qualifier. If you have business cards with “Christian” on them, does that make you a Christian? I can print some cards up that say “Arthur Sido, NFL quarterback” and maybe I will get to play next Sunday (my Browns could certainly use the help)
The second problem is neither Smith nor any of the following presidents of the mormon church have direct contact with Christ, evidenced by the fact that what they teach is in direct contrast to what Christ and His true apostles taught. So it kind of makes your argument moot.
I am a little concerned about you, now you are having imaginary conversations with yourself. All kidding aside, in thread after thread you have been shown that mormonism teaches doctrines that are contradictory to Biblical Christianity, that stand opposed to the teachings of Christ and His apostles, that are based on the testimony of one man who was a notorious liar and has been proven on a number of occassions to be a false prophet. I do pray that God opens your eyes and takes away that heart of stone so that you can truly repent of your sins and find the forgivenss that Christ has paid for, forgiveness sealed by His blood and earned by His righteousness in spite of our lack of the same.
Gluff I bear you my testimony.
I believe In Jesus Christ, God who came in the flesh, No other gods exist, execpt false ones.
I believe the Bible is the only inspired Word Of God, that came From the only true and living God.
I believe we are saved by grace alone, Nothing but the Blood of Christ can save us, Nothing else can or will, not money, not good works, nothing.
I believe in one heaven only, not 3, I believe hell is real, and not every person is a child of God. Rick B (LDS priesthood holder)
OK RickB,
I’ve held my tongue on this for a while but I can’t anymore. Your ‘analogy’ of calling yourself ‘LDS’ but denying all of its doctrine and practises is very much flawed. You are Christian, but you only represent one denomination of Christianity, not all. Whereas we LDS are saying we are a Christian denomination as well.
Its like dogs – there are many types of dogs out there. A border collie is a dog; a spaniel is a dog; a golden retriever is a dog; a german shepard is a dog. BUT a border collie is not a german shepard; nor is it a spaniel or golden retriever, etc.
Let’s take this back to religion – you are not Roman Catholic, nor are you Anglican, yet these are Christian churches. This also means that you are not LDS and cannot say that you are even if we can say that we are Christian.
As you posted earlier, the ORIGINAL meaning in the Bible of the word Christian was a derogatory label given to those who professed belief in Jesus Christ by the non-believers. That is all the criteria there for the original meaning. If we look at the epistles, they were trying to stop people teaching and believing the wrong things but all of the congregations they were sent to were still classed as part of the ‘church’ even though some believed that circumcision was necessary, or some believed in works assisted grace, etc. So we profess a belief in Jesus as the Son of God and our Saviour, which is all that is required of the original meaning. But we believe differently with other things, so write to us the epistles teaching us of our errors like Paul and Peter did – but under the Biblical meaning we can be classed as Christian and part of the flock.
I used the “I” word generally, not individually, and I was NOT referencing intellectual capacity at all, but rather spiritual capacity. I needed to vent, OK- We are all Christians here, so no one will hold a grudge. Right?
OK, OK, I am sorry. Please forgive me. Does that help?
I guess now is the time for the examination of my evidence.
GRCluff said:
“If you are not Christian, why does the name of your Church include the name Jesus Christ?
Well, that is the name He gave us to use.
Who gave you that name?
Jesus did, when he was talking with our prophet.”
Revelation (from Jesus Christ) through Joseph Smith, Far West, Missouri, April 26, 1838. History of the Church 3:23-25.
Section 115:4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
So, if this was to be Christ’s Church, do you think He would want us to avoid using the term “Christian”?
The only good argument I will buy at this point is that he may prefer that we be called “saints”. The Catholic Church may have a small problem with that one.
I have offered up both scriptural and historical reference that this is the case. Now can we be called Christian?
Arthur said:
“neither Smith nor any of the following presidents of the mormon church have direct contact with Christ, evidenced by the fact that what they teach is in direct contrast to what Christ and His true apostles taught.”
It must be difficult for them, they seem to mingle Christ’s teachings with direct quotes from the Bible in nearly every discourse these days.
I haven’t noticed a single note of discord. The Holy Spirit is OFTEN present at the time, burning a witness of the truthfulnes of their words.
Yet, they are in DIRECT CONTRAST? Are we going to the same meetings?
Heres an idea. In a few short years, you and I will be in the spirit world WITH the original apostles and prophets. You know, Peter James and John? What are you going to do when Peter looks you in the eye and says. Yes, I did. On the banks of the Susquahanah river. I gave this man — pointing to JS — the same priesthood that Christ gave me. The Holy Spirit has been bearing witness on the matter at every opportunity for 150 years. Where have you been?
What will you say then? Will you quote Paul to the apostle Peter? Tell him he was wrong to ordain JS because HE introduced polygamy? Then Peter will begin to introduce you to his wives. Then what will you tell him?
Cluff:
Speak for yourself when you talk about your eternal destination location. When I die I will be in the presence of the Lord right along with Paul and the others (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23).
Your idea/play along:
What will I say to Peter? I will say to him what Jesus said to Peter in Matt 16:23: “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me”. I will know that this entity imitating Peter is a false angel (demon). When I was a youth at a Christian school there was a man that approached me while I was playing in the school yard and yelled at me through the fence to come to him. Being innocent and naive I did walk closer but stay at a distance. He told me that he was the dispciple Matthew. He was a liar and a fraud. I’ll put that “Peter” in the same category.
What will I say to John? “What are you doing here? The Mormons said you never died and would remain on the earth until Christ returns and ‘shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people’ (D&C 7:1-3). Your work isn’t in the spirit world. It’s on the earth. You’re in the wrong place. You’re violating 1 Nephi 3:7!”
What will I say to Moses? “How did you show up at the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:3 when you are a murderer (Ex 2:12)? Murderers aren’t forgiven in this life nor in the next (D&C 42:18,79). Mormon doctrine says that murderers will only inherit the telestial kingdom? Did a false spirit (demon) mimic you too just like the one imitating Peter over there?”
Back on topic:
It’s all in the name, huh? So if Jesus is in the title it’s Christian? Is this church below Christian?
The World Church of Jesus is Satan (Detroit, MI)
If I told you that I don’t believe the LDS Church is the true church, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, Thomas Monson isn’t a prophet today and the Book of Mormon isn’t the word of God, then would it be okay for me to call myself a Mormon? I assume “No!” That has always been the Christian position. Mormons aren’t Christian.
Ralph,
Like LDS say to us, Who are you to tell me I am not an LDS member? I am to, you cannot judge me. So please stop. Rick B (LDS priesthood holder)
BornAgain: before I forget, my comments were blocked on the same thread at almost exactly the same time yours were. It had nothing to do with you being Mormon, it had everything to do with the thread stalling out, there was nothing new being said, and as a case in point, you were busy telling us for the tenth time how essential baptism is/was. At least that is my “take”, only Sharon knows for sure, but there were not a lot new ideas getting put forward,seems to me.
It is very unlikely that this “who is called what” situation will get solved to anyone’s satisfaction. Kind of like “who can be called Mormon”. All I can say is I don’t have to consider, or label, LDS as christian, and when I tell people that LDS are non-christian (as a system of belief, only God knows an individual’s heart) that is a good conversation starter for me to explain WHY I make that claim. A claim that THEY are welcome to examine and contradict if the bible or LDS writings say something else. And I ALWAYS welcome that kind of “check what I say” response. If I’m right, the truth bears me out, if I’m wrong, they can find that out thru their own independent investigation. What the culture at large decides to do with these labels, I don’t know, but I don’t think it changes my approach for now. GERMIT
GRluff said
So let me ask you again, when did the change occur?
Have you not read, pg 73 of, an address to all believers in Christ, it teaches the original name was Church of Christ
Ralph,
Why is it, LDS can say, were just another denomanation of Christians. Yet you refuse to say, FLDS,RLDS or other off shoot groups are simple Demonations of the LDS faith or even of the Christians faith?
Then I did not offer up an analogy, I spoke the Truth. I really believe you either refuse to hear what us Christians say, or simply do not care.
It has been spelled out to you many times before. Demonations are not of God but of men, they result in us not agreeing on minor non salvation issues. Like can we speak in tounges today or not, can women be pastors, which view of the rapture do you hold.
Yet Me, berean, falcon and others all agree on, who is Jesus, the trinity, salvation by grace alone Etc. So your wrong, please open your eyes.
Rick B (LDS PRIESTHOOD HOLDER) Sharing the restored Gospel of, Grace alone, the trinity, One God not many, Jesus who Died on the Cross for our Sins, not the garden, Etc.
“Section 115:4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” That’s funny –if this is true then why wasn’t it called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” until the 20th century? Hmm.
Sorry Sharon/mods, I know the other thread was closed but I have to post this response to things said over there.
Cluff, your logic makes no sense at all. You use the heretic Christians to show that they practiced the same things (polygamy, baptism for the dead) that the Mormons did/do so therefore Mormonism IS 1st century Christianity –but then you say those heretics are the ones who decided on the canon of the New Testament and the translations. With that logic, Mormons should believe that the Bible ISN’T missing anything! You accept the heretical practices of early Christians because it supports your belief in Mormonism, but reject those heretical practices when it comes to the Bible….I’m getting so confused!!
You said “By admitting that early Christianity strayed into heresy, you are taking two steps in my direction. Maybe I can give you a little push into the light. It wasn’t just ‘some people’ it was the entire Church.” Okay, Mormons believe that Jesus’ church was lost because the Christians went apostate –but you use the practices of the apostate Christian Church to support polygamy, baptism for the dead, belief that God the Father has a physical body. Talk about mental gymnastics; I have a headache!
Oh, and IF the heretic Christians who were practicing polygamy were the ones deciding on the books and translations, why oh why would they leave in the parts about having only one wife?? Why oh why would they leave in scripture that God is spirit? Why oh why did they not inject passages about how baptism for the dead should be performed?
I guess you are right that Mormons and early Christians had much in common. The early Christians were disobedient to God and so are the Mormons.
OK back 2 topic.
Mormon’s are christian. Not the narrow type of christian that you all describe, but we are christian.
But who cares! This is a question of vernacular… not doctrine. Cluff… very witty, and spot on. Rick, keep wishing. Berean, if you’re in the presence of God and you tell someone who is also in the presence of God to get thee hence Satan, I will be embarrassed for you, whether or not I’m there. And as far as grace alone… what are the commandments for? Why would we need to live by a set of guidelines (divine guidelines) if we’ll all be saved anyways?
Are Rick, berean, falcon, etc. all members of the same christian sect/church/denomination?
RickB,
So do you agree that the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox churches are Christian? If you do then you are at opposition to a few members of this site – which means that even you ‘Christians’ can’t agree on what the term means. But with your comment about all ‘Christian’ denominations agreeing on “who is Jesus, the trinity, salvation by grace alone Etc” then you must believe that the RC and GO are not ‘Christian’ which then negates the common held meaning of the majority of the world.
But let’s go back to the definition you gave from the Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary – Christian The name given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch. The names by which the disciples were known among themselves were “brethren,” “the faithful,” “elect,” “saints,” “believers.” But as distinguishing them from the multitude without, the name “Christian” came into use, and was universally accepted. This name occurs but three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16). As I said before – the epistles were written to communities that had ‘abberant’ beliefs to correct these for example the necessity of circumcision, and (for your benefit) works assisted grace – BUT these people were still considered as part of the flock as long as they believed in Jesus as their Saviour and the Son of God.
We LDS believe that Jesus is our Saviour and the Son of God, this fits the original Biblical definition of ‘Christian’ so we can be considered as a denomination of Christianity. But you represent only one denomination not all, so you cannot say you are LDS just like you cannot say you are RC or GO or Anglican. So if you keep saying you are LDS then you are bearing false witness which by your belief system shows you are not saved yet because you have sinned knowingly which negates your faith in Christ.
Ralph said
I do not know if they are or not. God knows, he judges salvation and peoples hearts not me. I can as the scripture teaches, inspect fruit, and see if what people say and do lines up with what scripture teaches.
Then Ralph said
The jesus you believe in, is not the Jesus the Bible teaches, plus the Bible says, Not all who say, Lord, Lord will be saved. these people who said, Lord, Lord did miracles and cast out demons, so they thought they were saved, but they were not. They they they knew Jesus, but Jesus did not know them. Rick B (LDS priesthood holder).
Cluff,
“Heres an idea. In a few short years, you and I will be in the spirit world WITH the original apostles and prophets.”
Well that is sweet and all full of ecumenical goodness, but it is also impossible. If what mormonism teaches is true, I am an apostate and condemned to outer darkness as a son of perdition. So we will not be roasting marshmallows in the spiritual world. If I am correct, then there will not be a polygamous Peter in heaven, nor Joseph Smith and tragically you will not be there either, having placed your faith at least is part with Joseph Smith’s story and your own works. I do hope to see you in heaven after you abandon mormonism and submit to Christ as Lord. I mean that in all sincerity. I left mormonism knowing that it meant that if mormonism were true I was condemned, but I also know from the Word of God that if I didn’t turn from mormonism and come to Christ, I was condemned justly to an eternal hell.
“Yet, they are in DIRECT CONTRAST? Are we going to the same meetings?”
One chuch teaches that there a prophets today, receiving ongoing revelation, that a temple is needed and has been rebuilt, that faith alone is inadequate to justify a sinner, that God is not eternal but was once a man, that Jesus and Satan are spiritual brothers and that Christ is a created being. The other church teaches that God is eternal and uncreated, that Christ is God and as such is also eternal and uncreated, that there is no need for either temples or prophets and that sinners are hopelessly lost and have only one hope, faith in Christ alone to justify them.
So yes, they are in direct contrast.
Reggie:
I haven’t officially welcomed you to MC so, “Welcome”. You’re going to need to “step it up” with your posts and be more substantive. Shallow answers and “rabbit trails” (what religion I am/others, etc.) isn’t going to cut it. We don’t drink “milk” here. It’s red meat.
I see that you didn’t want to tackle the LDS references I made in Cluff’s comical scenario especially regarding Moses and John. Am I going to be in the presence of God in the so-called Mormon spirit world? Not according to Mormon teachings. Heavenly Father isn’t there. He’s on Kolob and he is not omnipresent, remember?
What are the commandments for? Look at Romans 3:20 – “the law is the knowledge of sin”. The commandments show us the utter futility of trying to live the law perfectly. We can’t. Christians obey Christ not because of the law, but because of gratitude that He did for us what we could never do. This comes from the heart (Rom 6:17; Psa 40:8).
I know what “saved” in Mormonism means. Do you? Mormonism teaches “unconditional atonement” where all men are saved and have immortality. You are familiar with the “light of Christ” that you believe all mankind has, correct? That isn’t from the Bible. Mormons are the ones with the three degrees of glory and that all mankind is going to one of them even those in hell will eventually go to the telestial. Christians don’t believe that and the Bible doesn’t teach it. All are going to be saved in Christianity? Not hardly, but in Mormonism that is the teaching.
In your attempts of obtaining the “Christian” label, you are confusing your beliefs with ours. I know the Mormon Church wants the Christian label very badly. They aren’t going to be given it. Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz closed her eyes and clicked her heels three times to make things happen. That won’t work for Mormons in saying they are Christians no matter how many times they say it. Christians have over 2,000 years of history on our side. Mormonsim is new to the scene.
Arthur said:
“I am an apostate and condemned to outer darkness as a son of perdition”
I seriously doubt that you had a “real” testimony in the first place, so there is still a chance for you. Did God answer your prayers in the affirmative when you prayed to know the Chruch was true? Tell me yes, absolutely and completely, then you can become a son of perdition.
I was in the Church 10 years before I knew it was true the way God has always intended– how long were you a member before you dryed up and blew away?
Remember the parable of the sower?
Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
From your arguments and stories, I will insist that you are described in verse 19. The sons of perdition have to get to vers 22 or 23 first, then deny that they felt the spirit at all.
Sorry, God’s not done with you yet.
Berean:
I think I feel those 9 extra credits of BYU religion kicking in. I wondered where they went.
Let start with the factual error and/or your erroneous assuptions about valid Mormon teachings.
1. It was Peter, James and John that restored the higher priesthood, John the Baptist that restored the Levitical priesthood, and the prophet Elijah that restored the sealing keys for temple ordinances. I don’t think JS met Moses personally. He did talk to Christ, face to face LIKE Moses a couple times, maybe that is where you get confused.
2. Heres a verse in the BoM that you will find interesting, given your particular belief on the matter:
Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
Surpised? Your assignment to paradise or spirit prison while you wait for resurrection is a pre-judgement of sorts. If you believe in eternal progression, God gives you a job to do while you wait. If you just want to sit around, play your harp and sing Glory Glory, then God roles his eyes and says– send this one to spirit prison for re-education. He is getting on my nerves. (This part is not BYU education, just my vivid imagination at work)
3. On John and the 3 Nephites, you keep harping on where they are. Relax already– we teach that they can change their mind on that choice at any time.
You missed the “REAL” doctrinal problem in my post. Peter, James and John CAN’T be in the spirt world anymore because they had to be resurrected beings to confer the priesthood to JS. A spirit cannot confer the priesthood. It takes hand on head action. Touch is not available to spirit beings.