Usually when we speak of “two gospels” we are speaking of the contrast between the true gospel of Biblical Christianity and the false gospel of Mormonism. Steve Redinger (who calls himself Hick Preacher after the figure mocked in the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony) teaches of an expanded way of thinking about things, namely that Mormonism itself has two distinct gospels—even two different systems of religion.
I’ve personally met and hung out with Steve. He’s a reflective thinker and a kind man. He has great insight into how Mormonism and Christianity are each integrated worldview systems. I commend his YouTube videos to you.
What do you think about Steve’s two-gospel-paradigm for understanding Mormonism?
What do you think of Steve’s “Little Dog Salvation” parable?
Dear Mr. Redinger,
You seem like a nice person. However, it is patently clear from your various misstatements of LDS doctrine that you really do not understand or appreciate the even the basic fundamentals of LDS Church doctrine, teachings, governance, or culture. It is obvious that you simply do not know what you are talking about.
You selectively quote, misquote, and quote out of context a variety of LDS sources to fabricate a gross distortion of the correct doctrines of the LDS Church.
Unlike many of the readers of this blogsite I actually know what LDS doctrine is and I have taught it for 28 years. I am not impressed by your gross caricature of LDS doctrine nor by your efforts to pass it off as being the truth. It is a typical contra-Mormon tactic to attempt to redefine LDS doctrine.
I would suggest that you reread the sections you quoted in Mormon Doctrine for it is patently clear that the “Preparatory Gospel” you refer to was that administered by John the Baptist.
I cite Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine p.333:
“John the Baptist administered the preparatory gospel; Christ came with the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and restored the fulness of the gospel.”
It is not a difficult concept to comprehend.
Continued,
You state “Theologically Ward Worship is with out dispute Aaronic Priesthood based, rooted in the Book of Mormon and early D&C which are theologically Trinitarian-Like (oneness theology) in nature.”
This is such an absolutely absurd statement!!! Have you ever actually attended an LDS ward? It does not seem so!
The entire governance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based upon the administering of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Your assertion that: “Theologically Ward Worship is with out dispute Aaronic Priesthood based” is completely false and without merit.
Yes the Aaronic Priesthood deacons bless and pass the sacrament (holy communion) but under the direction of the bishop who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood. Baptisms, blessings, setting apart, and other such ordinances, are all conducted at the LDS ward level under the authority and power of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Indeed the LDS ward could neither function nor exist without the presiding presence of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Anyone who is even slightly familiar with the LDS Church knows this – but apparently you do not!
I could go on and on and on. It is clear that you simply do not understand even basic LDS doctrine. However, that stunning lack of knowledge does not stop you from making the most absurd assertions in your silly video.
Perhaps you should visit your local LDS ward and find out what the LDS Church actually teaches. Wow! What a novel concept!!!
I never cease to be amazed at how Mormon critics have the absolute gall and temerity to pontificate on the profound theological subjects of the LDS Church yet never bother to actually find out what it is we believe.
Such unmitigated gall and conceit is shocking.
st.crispin
I find it odd that you do not know the basics of the Mormon Religion. Your Corrosive remarks will always be met with FACTS. I recommend that back your religious views with FACTS to- instead of hollow claims that you are some kind of expert on the topic.
Aaronic Priesthood- Manages Preparatory Gospel Levels
Mormon Doctrine page 595
“There are in the church two priesthoods, namely Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood.”
Mormon Doctrine page 11
“The Priesthood of Aaron ’ is called the lesser priesthood…’”–
Mormon Doctrine page 595 outlines the levels of Aaronic Priesthood offices.
…”in the Aaronic Priesthood: deacon, teacher, priest and bishop.”
Aaronic Priesthood- Manages Preparatory Gospel Levels
Mormon Doctrine page 11
“The Priesthood of Aaron ’ is called the lesser priesthood…’”–“ …faith repentance, and baptism–comprising as they do the preparatory gospel fall within its province,…”
( btw- this included the Sacrament which is the renewal of the LDS Baptismal Covenant- the heart of the LDS Ward worship.)
D&C 84 26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments,
Mormon Doctrine page 595 outlines Aaronic Priesthood offices.
…”in the Aaronic Priesthood: deacon, teacher, priest and bishop.”
Keys to Knowledge of the mysteries of Gods held by Melchizedik Priesthood. This is the Fulness of the Gospel stuff.
Mormon Doctrine page 410
“…the higher priesthood ‘holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God’ (D&C 84:19-22)”
Dear Mr. Redinger,
You can quote LDS sources out of context but it is patently clear that you do not know what they mean.
As I stated the entire governance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based upon the administering of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Your assertion that: “Theologically Ward Worship is with out dispute Aaronic Priesthood based” is completely false and without merit. In fact the LDS ward could neither function nor exist without the presiding presence of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Anyone who is even slightly familiar with the LDS Church knows this – but apparently you do not!
What do you really know about LDS ward worship? Have you ever attended an LDS ward? It is blatantly obvious that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
I have served a 2 year LDS mission, served in the bishopric, Stake executive office, was an Elders Quorum President, LDS High Priest Group Leader, ward clerk, and served in the presidencies of various LDS auxiliaries. On top of that I have taught LDS doctrine for over 28 years as an institute instructor and seminary teacher, Gospel Doctrine teacher, and Gospel Essentials teacher. I serve in my ward every Sunday and I attend the LDS temple faithfully about twice a month.
Contrary to your absurd assertions, I know LDS doctrine, history and culture because I live it each and every day.
On the other hand what exactly is you experience and knowledge of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that makes you think that you are qualified to pontificate the way you do on LDS doctrine? It takes more than reading a few trashy contra-Mormon pamphlets and taking the tour at Temple Square to become knowledgeable about LDS doctrine.
Perhaps you should visit your local LDS ward and find out what the LDS Church actually teaches. Wow! What a novel concept!!!
I never cease to be amazed at how Mormon critics have the absolute gall and temerity to spout off on something they know next to nothing.
SteveRedinger,
While it’s true that the office of the Bishop is an Aaronic Priesthood office, the person that officiates within has to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. Thus the whole Aaronic Priesthood is presided over by the Melcheizedek Priesthood within the ward bounds – as the Bishop is the presiding officer of the Aaronic Priesthood within the ward. The Bishop is also the presiding Melchizedek Priesthood holder in the ward and the presiding person at meetings unless a higher office is present (eg Stake President), the Ward and the Sacrament Meeting are presided over by the Melchizedek Priesthood. However, the ordinances performed within the Sacrament Meeting (ie the blessing and passing of the Sacrament) are performed by the Aaronic Priesthood. Does this help to clear things up?
You miss the point st.crispin—
Baptism and Sacrament is administered using the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood. This has with Melchizedik Priesthood holders being present sustaining a Ward/
It is not totally unique for a person to be LDS a long time and not even understand the basic structure of the Mormon Church’s Priesthood Organization.
It appears that you are not taking in account the references provided above.
It is true Melchizedic Priesthood quorums are always present in an LDS Ward, but Melchizedic Priesthood keys are not exercised at the Sacrament Meeting Covenant renewal. It is not necessary to have a Melchizedic Priest bless and pass the sacrament. The Bishop Presides over the Meeting—and exercises his Aaronic Keys in doing so.
When not enough Melchizedic Priesthood members are present to form a Ward is the Congregation is designated as a Branch. Nevertheless, Baptism and the Sacrament are Aaronic Priesthood functions and Sacrament Meeting are conducted. Melchizedic Priesthood holders who sometimes perform baptisms and Sacrament prayers, and pass the Sacrament may do so because they also hold the Aaronic Priesthood, and exercise those keys when performing those ordinances. Again as cites abobe, the Office of Bishop is an office of the Aaronic Priesthood. Most all Bishops are also Melchizedic Priesthood holding the office of a High Priest. The exception is that the Bishop is literal descendant of Aaron.
Nevertheless, the active office and keys that preside in the Ward is that of an Aaronic Priesthood. The Keys exercised Blessing and Passing the Sacrament are that of the Aaronic Priesthood. This Sacrament segment of Ward Meetings ( or Branch Meetings) has to do the renewal of the LDS Baptismal Covenant and is the Worship of the LDS Ward.
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Roles_of_a_Bishop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_meeting
Your claim of personal qualifications and LDS experience carry no weight in an internet discussion. Ple
Ralph—
Yes most always the Bishop holds the Melchezedic Priesthood office of High Priest. But the Point is NOT which highest Priesthood office is present in the Ward. The point is that the Preparatory Gospel and the keys of the Aaronic are keys being practiced in the Ward during the Ward’s most important meeting of worship—that is Sacrament Meeting. Sacrament Meeting revolves around the renewal of the Baptismal Covenant—the Sacrament and Sacrament Prayers.
The LDS Baptismal Covenant being renewed is based on the Preparatory Gospel and again Aaronic Priesthood keys. The Preparatory Gospel is the Gospel of Repentance, and Baptism. The Sacrament Prayer is based on the Book of Mormon view of God, and commandments of the Book of Mormon Jesus’ in 3 Nephi. The Book of Mormon Book of Moroni Chapters 4&5 contain these Prayers that are recited verbatim in each Ward/Branch Sacrament Meeting. The Book of Moroni describes God as being from Everlasting to Everlasting, from All Eternity (Ch 7&8). Likewise the Sacrament Prayers Call God the Eternal Father referring to this Eternal attribute of God. These are attributes of the Preparatory Gospel and the Aaronic Priesthood.
In Temple Worship the Keys of the Melchezedik Priesthood are required for in Endowments, and Sealings. Melchezedic Priesthood Keys are used in the Fulness of the Gospel.
In celestial Temple rites the Aaronic Priesthood keys are not being used as in Sacrament Meetings because they are of the Preparatory Gospel.
The Melchezedik Priesthood is also used in Mormonism to give the Gift of the Holy Ghost–and is part of the Fulness of the Gospel– not of the Preparatory Gospel.
So in the Mormon Religion, there is a division of Priesthood along the lines of the Preparatory Gospel as opposed to the Fulness of the Gospel.
COn’t– st crispin–
Your claim of personal qualifications and LDS experience carry no weight in an internet discussion. Please cite a reference, not just a claim of authority by experience.
I can see what you are saying and yes, it is somewhat correct. Teachers and Priests in teh Aaronic Priesthood can officiate in sacrament meetings if there are no Melchizedek Priesthood available – BUT Deacons cannot. Also, Teachers cannot administer the sacrament by themselves, so if there are no Priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders present then the sacrament cannot be blessed or passed. So in order for the sacrament to be available on a Sunday meeting there must be a priesthood holder in the office of a Priest or above. The same goes with baptism and laying on of hands (ordinations, setting aparts, confirmations, etc). This comes from D&C 20:46-59.
So yes, the Aaronic Priesthood can ‘run’ the sacrament meeting as you have stated, but it must be a Priest officiating, not Teacher or Deacon for a full and proper Sacrament meeting. Where as how you are saying it above sounds like it is all offices of the Aaronic Priesthood that can do this.
Ralph- OK
So the Aaronic Priesthood keys present a view of God from the representations of God found in the Book of Mormon from the Book of Moroni- being the Sacrament Prayers. These Sacrament Prayers are the focus of Ward worship. In these prayers God is represented as a Trinitarian-Like Strictly Eternal God. This is evident from the origin and root of these prayers in the Book of Mormon. These prayers are taken from Book of Mormon elements that describe God as strictly Eternal, and Trinitarian -like in nature (though modalistic in many descriptions). Even the Book of Mormon Jesus says in 3 Nephi 11 that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One, and it is wrong to change this doctrine of the Father. The Baptismal Covenant in D&C 20 says the God is the only being that should be worshiped while refering to the Three- calling the Father, Son and Holy Ghost One God. This shows that the LDS Baptismal Covenant is theologically Trinitarian-like. This means that for a Mormon to deny the Trinity is also to deny their own baptismal covenant.
Dear Mr. Redinger,
1. You state: my “claim of personal qualifications and LDS experience carry no weight in an internet discussion.”
What a completely absurd statement! I know what LDS doctrine and practices are because I have lived them since my baptism and it is blatantly apparent that you do not know what you are talking about.
Just what are your qualifications for spouting off on any LDS topic? What, you have read some contra-Mormon literature? Yeah, that must make you an expert. Anything else beyond that??? I didn’t think so.
You are like a person who has never studied Judaism telling a devout Jewish Rabbi that you know his faith and religion better than he does. What colossal arrogance!!!
Your basic premise that there are two systems of religion or gospel in the LDS Church is fatally flawed. Your lack of understanding of LDS doctrine and practices have lead to your misinterpretation of the LDS concept of the Preparatory Gospel of the Aaronic Priesthood and misapplication of that concept to what you ascribe as being “LDS ward worship”.
I have told you to reread the section in Mormon Doctrine which discusses the concept of the Preparatory Gospel and how that is what was taught by John the Baptist. It is apparent that you have not done this.
The simple fact is that it is the Fulness of the Gospel that is taught by the LDS missionaries and in the LDS ward and not the Preparatory Gospel as you so incorrectly suppose. Anyone who is even slightly familiar with the LDS Church knows this – but apparently you do not!
The simple fact is that an LDS ward could not even exist without the presiding presence of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
The simple fact is that conferral of the Holy Ghost could not be conducted without the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Anyone who is even slightly familiar with the LDS Church knows this – but apparently you do not!
The simple fact is that you do not know what you are talking about.
st.crispin
You are just blowing smoke in order to distract from the point.
John the Baptist according to Mormonism held the Aaronic Priesthood-this if fundamental.
As cited above the Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys to the Baptismal Covenant—and the its renewal. The Aaronic Priesthood hold the keys to preach the Gospel. This Gospel Preached is that to Repentance and baptism- the Preparatory Gospel.
Missionaries primarily teach the Preparatory Gospel to potential Converts- as instructed by the 19th section of the D&C
D&C 19: “21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.
22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.”
The issue is not weather or not the LDS Church overall could or could not exist without the Melchezedik Priesthood. The idea is that People are taught, converted and baptized into the Mormon Church under the doctrines and teachings of the Preparatory Gospel, and not converted to Eternal Progression of the Fulness of The Gospel for LDS Church Membership.
People are brought into the LDS Church under one set of conditions, and teachings about God, only to have those conditions and teaching change after membership.
Please cite references, instead of just boasting about how smart you think you are compared to other people.
Pr 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
and st.crispin– If all the fulness is taught in the LDS Ward, why do the LDS have Temples?
Dear Mr. Redinger,
You still do not understand basic LDS doctrine.
Your very question:
“If all the fulness is taught in the LDS Ward, why do the LDS have Temples?”
reveals that you simply do not know what the LDS term “Fulness of the Gospel” means.
You quote Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine [p.333] which defines the LDS term “Fulness of the Gospel” and yet it seems that you fail to understand his definition.
“The fulness of the gospel consists of those laws, doctrines, ordinances, powers, and authorities needed to enable men to gain the fulness of salvation.”
In other words the Gospel of Jesus Christ – as opposed to the preparatory gospel taught by John the Baptist.
In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism the LDS term “Fulness of the Gospel” is defined:
“[T]he Book of Mormon and other latter-day scriptures define it [gospel of Jesus Christ] precisely as the way or means by which an individual can come to Christ.” In all the scriptural passages, salvation is “available through his [Christ’s] authorized servants” who (1) believe in Christ; (2) repent of their sins; (3) receive baptism; (4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; (5) endure to the end.
“Although emphasis is placed on truths necessary for salvation, LDS usage of the term ‘gospel’ is not confined to the scriptural definition. Latter-day Saints commonly refer to the entire body of their religious beliefs as ‘the gospel.’ By the broadest interpretation, all truth originating with God may be included within the gospel.”
[Noel B. Reynolds 2:556-558 “Gospel of Christ”; Encyclopedia of Mormonism]
This is why LDS state that the Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel even though it does not mention such matters as celestial marriage or exaltation.
In summary, the Fulness of the Gospel is indeed taught in the LDS ward. However, as taught in the LDS ward, there are specific ordinances that can only be performed in the LDS temple which is the House of the Lord
Dear Mr. redinger,
I can find it in my heart to forgive someone who simply does not know what they are talking about. However, I draw the line when you make vicious accusations against my faith and my church.
You state:
“People are brought into the LDS Church under one set of conditions, and teachings about God, only to have those conditions and teaching change after membership.”
Your vile accusation is not only completely false and without merit but reveals a stunning lack of knowledge of even the most basic LDS Church doctrines and practices.
The fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught directly to all potential investigators of the LDS Church. One merely has to peruse the LDS “Gospel Principles” manual which constitutes the teaching curriculum in the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class to verify that the “meat” of the LDS doctrine is indeed taught to all investigators and new members alike “up front”.
Indeed, there are few churches which provide such extensive opportunities for learning about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as does the LDS Church.
Yo accuse the LDS Church of deceptive practices. Yet it is clear that you are the one who is being deceitful.
In your videos you make yourself out to be knowledgeable about LDS doctrine and practices – this is patently not the case.
In you videos you claim that there are two Mormon Gospels – this is gross misconception on your part.
In your videos you falsely accuse the LDS Church of not informing investigators and new members of LDS doctrine – you accusation is a bold face lie!
Your colossal arrogance and deceitfulness typifies much of the intellectual dishonesty that passes for contra-Mormon criticism.
Steve,
Now we understand each other about the AP/MP, let’s look at your next assertion about the preparatory gospel being Trinitarian-like. You give reference to the BoM where it says in a few passages that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are One and then state that this is Trinitarian-like and in some cases Modalistic. You do not reference the teachings of the LDS church where we say this is a ‘team’ situation and that they are one in purpose, goal and focus, NOT one in essence, etc. To show you what I mean look at John 17 in the Great Intercessory Prayer. Jesus asks Heavenly Father to make the believers one in Him (Jesus) as He is one in God and to make them one in each other as God and Jesus are one (NOTE the word “IN” is used). Now most people I know in the Christian community say that these verses are not describing the Trinity because of the reference to us humans also being one in God and Jesus. But this is exactly the same wording as a verse used earlier in John to support the Trinity (John 10:38). So the references in the BoM are discussing just that – a team that is one in unity, focus, goal, etc. Here in Australia we have a song that some are trying to make into our national anthem. It starts “We are one, but we are many”. This is also similar terminology to Trinitarian theology, but it does not mean that we Aussies are Trinitarian-like in nature, that we are one Australian but many Australians. So I disagree that the BoM teaches Trinitarianism or something similar when you look at what we teach.
Then if you go to the Gospel Principles Book which the investigators and new converts are taught from the very first 2 lessons teach that we are God’s spirit children and that we have the potential to become like Him. These 2 lessons point to God and Jesus being separate beings and that God has a physical body. These are taught to the investigators, so they are not getting a ‘watered-down’ gospel.
On this issue of “fulness of the gospel” I am wondering about this quote from Joseph Fielding Smith:
“Fulness of the Gospel. By fulness of the gospel is meant all the ordinances and principles that pertain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, page 160).
The introduction of the BoM says that the book “contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel”. D&C 20:9; 27:5 confirm this as well. How can the Book of Mormon contain the fulness of the everlasting gospel leading one to exaltation (becoming a god) in the celestial kingdom when ordinances of temple sealings, baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, endowments, etc., are not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon? These ordinances are required for exaltation and entry into the celestial kingdom, but they aren’t even mentioned in the Book of Mormon. How can this definition by the former prophet Joseph Fielding Smith be correct?
I understand now why current printings of the BoM have removed the statement “as does the Bible”. If the Bible contained the fulness of the everlasting gospel, then there would be no need for the BoM. I never understood why the LDS Church put that phrase in their to begin with. It doesn’t help make their case. It’s been in there since 1830 and it’s now 2009 – they moved slow on this correction.
One Mormon told me that this fulness of the gospel applied to the Nephites (the BoM contained all that they needed for exaltation). If what is taught in the Book of Mormon was satisfactory for the Nephites to enter into the celestial kingdom, why did the Mormon god “move the goal line” much farther for Mormons today in his requirements of them to enter the celestial kingdom? This would have past Mormons (BoM Mormons “Nephites”) gaining entry into the celestial kingdom under less requirements. If I were a modern-day Mormon, that would make me angry and saying “not fair” (Romans 2:11 and Malachi 3:6 – ?). It doesn’t add up.
st. crispin- Nice to see that at least you cite a source-
According to ‘Mormon Doctrine’ the Book of Mormon does not actually contain the Fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Mormons say on one hand in public that the Book of Mormon: “It contains the fullness of the everlasting gospel…” (Mormon Doctrine pages 98, 426 and 427 and see D&C 20:9,42:12,135:3 ) Yet the insider’s knowledge about this is that:
“The fullness of the gospel cannot be preserved in the written word. The scriptures bear record of the gospel, but the gospel itself consists in the power of the priesthood and the possession of the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Mormon Doctrine Page 333-334 from President John Taylor Gospel Kingdom p. 88)
Also as Andy Watson cited of Joseph Fielding Smith- the Fulness of the Gospel is the information and ordinances required for the celestial level of salvation. This is not imparted in LDS Ward Sacrament Meetings.
For a Mormon to obtain the fullest and highest salvation in Mormonism a lot more than what is taught in the Book of Mormon is required.
What is taught in Sunday School is far different than what Sacrament Worship entails.
Many things in Mormonism is reserved for Temple instruction, and endowments. These things are not taught ‘upfront’ nor in the Ward.
Mormonism is glad to baptize people when a bare minimum of information is taught.
Mormonism applies progressive disclosure of information toward teachings potential converts and its membership.
The official Mormon church manual called “Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple” ( a booklet adapted from Apostle Boyd K. Packer, The Holy Temple, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982),.explains that Latter-day Saints: “do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples”.
The Gospel seen in the Book of Mormon only contains Baptism and Sacrament-, which are Aaronic Priesthood ordinances of the Preparatory Gospel.
Thanks for your comments
Ralph
There are good reasons within the Gospel of John to think that John 17 in no way indicates that the Father and the Son are only ‘one’ in purpose. They are also One in Spirit.
Please see video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7so1CezOY&feature=channel_page
The primary basis and procedure for joining the LDS Church is reading the Book of Mormon, and personally determining its truth, to determine if the LDS Church is true.
The Book of Mormon is truly by all exoteric standards of interpretation teaches of a triune God.
By reasonable standard of interpretation the BoM and its covenant of Baptism as it is dictated from the mouth of Jesus commands the worship of God from this triune view.
The RLDS Church also affirm this BoM trinunity.
Example of BoM trinuinty: In 3 Nephi 18:7 Jesus calls the Holy Ghost “My Spirit, 2 Nephi 11:7 says if there is NO Christ there is NO God. 1 John 5:7 has been claimed by anti-Trinitarians as an explicit Trinitarian forgery added to the Bible- and many BoM passages are worded just like this alledged Biblical addition. D&C 20 says that God is the only being worshiped—yet the Book of Mormon commands the fully devoted worship of Christ (2 Nephi 25:29).
. A Mormon advancing in esoteric knowledge develops an internal interpretation of the Book of Mormon Doctrine of God. A person in the public domain who has not received these keys of interpretation will naturally view the Book of Mormon as Trinitarian-like. Please see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6obcshazTYY&feature=channel_page
Ralph becoming like God is not the same as becoming the same kind of God as God the Father. Nor is becoming like God the same as teaching that God the Father was once a mortal man. Orthodoxy always has had the doctrine of perfectionism were humans can become Christ-like. The Father and the Son having separate physical bodies does not necessarily contradict the Trinity—because in Trinitarian thought, God’s Being is transcendent.
Andy Watson,
You ask: “How can the Book of Mormon contain the fulness of the everlasting gospel leading one to exaltation (becoming a god) in the celestial kingdom when ordinances of temple sealings, baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, endowments, etc., are not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon?”
I respond by stating what I have already stated two times on this thread:
In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism the LDS term “Fulness of the Gospel” is defined:
“[T]he Book of Mormon and other latter-day scriptures define it [gospel of Jesus Christ] precisely as the way or means by which an individual can come to Christ.” In all the scriptural passages, salvation is “available through his [Christ’s] authorized servants” who (1) believe in Christ; (2) repent of their sins; (3) receive baptism; (4) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; (5) endure to the end.
“Although emphasis is placed on truths necessary for salvation, LDS usage of the term ‘gospel’ is not confined to the scriptural definition. Latter-day Saints commonly refer to the entire body of their religious beliefs as ‘the gospel.’ By the broadest interpretation, all truth originating with God may be included within the gospel.”
[Noel B. Reynolds 2:556-558 “Gospel of Christ”; Encyclopedia of Mormonism]
This is why LDS state that the Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel even though it does not mention such matters as celestial marriage or exaltation.
In summary, the Fulness of the Gospel is indeed taught in the LDS ward. However, as taught in the LDS ward, there are specific ordinances that can only be performed in the LDS temple which is the House of the Lord.
Dear Mr. Redinger,
You are so far off the mark that all I can say is: “Holy Moses smell the roses!”
It is patently apparent that you simply do not know what you are talking about.
You state: “What is taught in Sunday School is far different than what Sacrament Worship entails.”
That is such an inane statement. The sacrament is a specific ordinance entailing renewing one’s baptismal covenants by partaking of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. This is most certainly taught in Sunday school as well as all the other teachings of Jesus Christ.
You state: “Many things in Mormonism is reserved for Temple instruction, and endowments. These things are not taught ‘upfront’ nor in the Ward.”
This is again not correct. Many aspects of attending the House of the Lord and participating are taught “upfront” in the LDS Sunday School. There are even specific Sunday school courses for new members on the LDS temple.
You state: “Mormonism is glad to baptize people when a bare minimum of information is taught.”
This is a gross distortion. Investigators and new members receive extensive instruction in LDS doctrine.
You state: “Mormonism applies progressive disclosure of information toward teachings potential converts and its membership.”
Again, this is a gross distortion. The vast bulk of LDS doctrine is contained in the Gospel Principles manual taught in the Gospel Essentials class for investigators and new members.
You selectively quote from “Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple” citing LDS “do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples” but most deceitfully you neglect to mention that the principles of temple ordinances (proxy baptisms, washing and anointings, sealings, celestial marriage, and the endowment) are all taught in Sunday school. Indeed, practically everything taught in Sunday school points toward the House of the Lord.
Your continued gross distortions and deceitful misrepresentations of LDS doctrines and practices is obscene.
St crispin-
Your assertion neglects the fact that participation in ordinances and the exercise of the keys of LDS Priesthood authority is entirely different from discussing ideas in a Gospel Doctrine Class.
Your statement that many aspects of attending the Temple are discussed in Sunday School classes is an confession that some things are NOT disclosed.
Your assertion that potential converts are given extensive instruction on LDS doctrine before baptism is inconsistent with the pattern of structured of LDS missionary lesions.
As this LDS related blog testifies
http://runtu.wordpress.com/category/lds/page/19/
This was in the days when the church decided that the best way to combat the idea that we weren’t Christians was to avoid talking about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon until the third discussion, which of course was the magic “baptismal challenge” discussion in our mission. The first discussion covered our faith in Jesus, and the second discussed the Mormon Plan of Salvation. The result was often that even people who made it through two discussions would send us away thinking that we weren’t much different from the Catholics and Protestants.
St. crispin, your argument now only consists of blatant vacant denials that contradict massive consistent documentation showing that Mormonism systematically hides its ultimate teachings from new potential converts. Your citation that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel even contradicts the teachings given by you own LDS Prophets,
The documentation bears out the fact that the LDS Church intentionally conceals doctrinal information in order to win converts.
Okay, I see crispin has run out of ammo and is furiously trying to bombard Mr. Redinger with the “you don’t know what you’re talking about” rhetoric in his bullying way of doing things. This is usually a sign of someone who has no foundation upon which to stand, as is clearly highlighted by his posts. Mr. Redinger is right on the mark. When I was a Mormon missionary, we didn’t teach about becoming gods (heresy), polygamy in the celestial kingdom (like there is a differentiation in heaven and heaven and heaven). We didn’t teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers (which is yet another heretical teaching). That’s all craziness, and the tactics of the Mormon church are to teach this stuff after baptism, after a person has expressed their “I know” testimony. The heretical teachings are taught as “meat,” after they have received sufficient “milk.” To say that new members are taught about the temple is really a misstatement. There is a temple preparation class one can attend, but it isn’t until after an interview with the bishop to determine readiness and appropriateness; even then, the class only talks about symbolism without going into the details. That is not informing anybody anything of substance and extensiveness, as crispin wants us to believe. I’m sure Andy can attest to that.
As with all Mormons, crispin operates from the faulty presupposition that the Bible is not authoritative–the words of LDS church leaders are more authoritative (8th AOF). His arguments are built on this false presupposition, which only leads to the heretical teachings he espouses.
I have already given crispin more attention that I had ever intended.
Peace and Grace to all who seek the Truth!
Mr. Redinger,
I am growing weary of your torrent of blatant lies, deliberate misrepresentations, and sheer ignorance of even the most basic tenets of the LDS Church.
Your statement that there are “Two Gospels of Mormonism” is a gross distortion fabricated from the deliberate misconstrual and misrepresentation of LDS doctrine.
Your statement that the LDS Church deliberately keeps investigators and new members uniformed about LDS doctrine is a blatant LIE and you know it. Just read the Gospel Principles manual. It teaches all the principles of the Gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
You remind me of anti-semites who are convinced that the holocaust never happened and that the Jews run the world’s financial system. You simply cannot carry on intelligent dialogue with such people – primarily because of their stunning lack of intelligence.
JackG,
All I have to say to you is read the LDS Gospel Principles manual and stop lying!
As usual, the LDS recommend reading heretical writings rather than the Bible. You see, when one reads the Bible without the faulty lens of the LDS 8th AOF, truth is illumined by the power of the Holy Spirit. The 8th AOF is a lens of darkness. As we can see, crispin has long expended his ammo and continues the only attack left to him. This is why we need to spend more time in prayer for the Mormons, because they are so very lost. It is so very sad.
Peace and Grace!
Let’s tone down the accusations of ignorance.
st.crispin- in the long run it is better to cite counter evidence than to just accuse a person of being some kind of degenerate.
As I have pointed to a number of times already, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said plainly that TWO GOSPELS are in the LDS Scriptures. (again page 333 of Mormon Doctrine). Now it is true that the Preparatory Gospel in Mormonism also refers to the Laws of Moses, but also this Gospel division exists today in Mormonism in the form of the First Principles — of Faith, Repentance and Water Baptism– and the Sacrament.
Potential converts are guided to read the Book of Mormon which contains these First Principles and not toward the higher teachings of Mormonism.
If a potential convert wished to go to a public library and read all about Mormonism’s higher radical teachings, nothing would stop them. But on the other hand much of the tactic of Mormonism is to guide people toward certain kinds of selected information–and that is how Mormonism operates.
It is the job of Christians in ministry to simply point out and make easily accessible information that Mormonism normally does not normally bring to the attention of its membership.
I find it odd that you would become so bitter, with such radical accusations against me for just pointing to an information source. People can check out this information for themselves.
What bothered me most about what McConkie said in Mormon Doctrine on page 333 are the words: “TWO GOSPELS”. When I read in D&C 19 & 84 about two different forms of the LDS gospel coupled with blatant instructions of the Mormon god to “hold back” on some of the other teachings…I find it disturbing and troubling. Why the need for “two gospels” in the first place? We don’t see the “two gospel” approach in the Bible.
Jesus said in John 12:48 – “…the word that I HAVE spoken” is in past tense. Jesus’ words are complete. A new prophet has nothing to offer. That is why John the Baptist is referred to as the last prophet in Matthew 11:13 & Luke 16:16 – “prophesied UNTIL John”. In Romans 15:19 Paul said, “I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” Jude 3 says that “the faith which was ONCE FOR ALL delivered unto the saints.”
The Gospel of Christ has been fully delivered. True Christian churches can deliver the full message of the Gospel of Christ to anyone who walks in the door – “no holds barred”. They might not be ready to understand substituionary atonement of justification by faith, but the simple message of the gospel of Christ which leads to eternal life is preached and simple enough that a child can understand it.
Crispin has stated that we need to read the LDS manual “Gospel Principles”. I have done that and did it before I ever attended a Gospel Essentials class at the LDS ward. Lucky for me, the day that I went they were starting at chapter 1 entitled “Our Father in Heaven”. In all fairness to Crispin, yes, it does say that the Mormon god has a body of flesh and bones (page 9). However, it DOES NOT say that he is an exalted man (progressed into becoming a god through obedience on some other planet).
Again, in all fairness to Crispin, the doctrine of exaltation (becoming a god) is mentioned on page 9 (even though the doctrine of exaltation isn’t specifically cited) where it says:
“All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him – a god.”
Needless to say, I was shocked when I read that. I raised my hand asked the teacher, “Excuse me, I’m not a member of this church and I have to confess that when I read this I seriously thought this was a typo. Is it? Do you people really think that you are going to become gods?”
The woman in front of me turned around and said, “Pretty intense, huh?” I replied, “Pretty wrong because God in the Bible said that you aren’t going to make it in Isaiah 43:10-12.” At this point I read the verse and people became uneasy. I was then directed to John 10:34 where Jesus references Psalm 82:6. I stated, “Your view is wrong. Read Psalm 82:7 – do gods die like men?” One woman started tearing up and then bore her testimony of Joseph Smith and that despite what the Bible said about the subject she knew what was said in Gospel Principles was true.
At this point the LDS missionaries tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Andy, we’ll talk to you about this later.” They did and the conversation was even more revealing on some things and more concealing in others. I’ve never been able to get anyone at a ward to look me in the eye and tell me that their god is an exalted man as taught by Joseph Smith.
Andy Watson- thanks for your commentary.
I find it interesting that even in a Gospel Essentials Class that has a mention of humans becoming ‘gods’ (little “g”)– that those same members are coming or going to Sacrament Meetings- that pray “O’ God the ETERNAL Father…”– how then could God have been once a Man if He is the “ETERNAL Father”.
I wanted to wish you all a happy Trinity Sunday (today).
Our sermon today was from Colossians 1:1-14. In verses 5 and 6, Paul refers to the true Gospel…
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth (KJV)
…or in the NIV…
…the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.
There are two things relevant to the current thread here;
1 The “true” Gospel was something the Colossians had “already heard”, so Paul isn’t thinking in terms of a “preparatory Gospel”, which is to be amended by a “full Gospel” – he says the Colossians have it all already.
2 The “true” Gospel was something that was received in its fullness on the “day you heard it”. To me, that does not look like something that takes a whole program of indoctrination to acquire.
What is this Gospel? Paul tells us in Col 1:23 that it was what he preached, and what he preached was all about Jesus and what he has (past tense) done for us (see the preceding verses). Our part is to receive it and live in it.
Completely absent from Paul’s Gospel is any mention of the need for Temple Ordinances, any mention of Heavenly Father having sex with his many Heavenly Wives on a planet near Kolob in order to create human beings, any mention of quasi-masonic rituals, any mention of how our good works compensate for the incomplete work of Christ, any mention of the need to get into (plural) marriage, any mention of how God was once a mortal sinner.
Why not? Because they weren’t in Paul’s Gospel