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The Curse of Cain returns?
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That’s funny right there.. 😉
What is the point? Would you laugh if Lightning struck your church? What good does it serve to Mock others?
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
shematwater, if we had a big statue of Billy Graham or Moses on the top of our building made out of fiberglass and covered with gold that was given a brown bum by a lightening strike, I think we’d laugh even harder.
PS Your Church mocked Protestant ministers in the pre-1990 temple ceremony, and still mocks Christians in the Manti Pageant.
Aaron, if we put a graven image of a man on a church building, it SHOULD be struck by lightning.
Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature: Whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense: Whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God has appointed.
A lesson on the second commandment from an abominable creed…
Question 95. What is idolatry?
Answer: Idolatry is, instead of, or besides that one true God, who has manifested himself in his word, to contrive, or have any other object, in which men place their trust.
Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?
Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word.
Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?
Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them.
Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?
Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dump images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word.
A lesson from an abominable creed
Get your Gold spray paint today. I have a feeling there’s going to be a shortage.
I don’t think Mormons worship “Moroni’s” statue, so it’s not really a “graven image” or the depiction of a false god, but rather the depiction of a false angel. Still, it is unsettling. Bowing before a statue – definitely idolatry. Putting it on top of your building… hmmm.
I’d prefer a live lamb that looks as though it has been slain.
I guess those who have crosses on their churches are guilty of Idol worship. They have put a graven image on top of their buildings. How about bowing before it?
Now, as to laughing about it, to do so about your own building shows a profound disrespect for the house of God, unless of course you don’t believe it is. To me the temples are the houses of God on this earth. So, I guess it would have been more accurate to ask how you would feel if your house had been struck by lightning and all your neighbors did was point and laugh at the damage.
shematwater, I would point you to the words of Jesus in John 4:
The Spirit of God dwells not in a temple, nor in a sole ethnic-religious leader, but now in the New Covenant believers in Christ. The Church and the Temple are not a building, but the collective, organic whole of the body of Christ. So we Christians should be quickly inclined to self-criticism if our assemblies start lifting up statues of Abraham, Paul, Peter, or an angel, on the top of what we think is a temple.
Grace and peace in Christ,
Aaron
Shematwater,
Christians do not worship the cross. I think the forbidden graven image would be the image of a living creature or person, not only that, but an image that is worshiped or thought to have some inherent religious value, perhaps something like a talisman that works as a good luck charm. If someone treated a crucifix or cross as a good luck charm it would be an idol, but that would be true of any item used for such a purpose. What is the significance of Moroni on the temple? Actually, what goes on inside disturbs me MUCH more than the statue on top.
A temple has been struck by lightning! Wow, I guess that means we are the wrong church! Nice picture though.
Mobaby,
You said “Christians do not worship the cross. I think the forbidden graven image would be the image of a living creature or person, not only that, but an image that is worshiped or thought to have some inherent religious value, perhaps something like a talisman that works as a good luck charm.”
What do the RC do with the crucifix? Don’t they bow down in front of it and pray in front of it? That, to many outside of that religion, indicates worship of the crucifix, regardless of them saying they are not worshiping it but using it to focus on Jesus. It is more the perception that takes meaning to outsiders than what is actually happening. Just like many non-Christian people think that the Trinity indicates a plurality of gods. This is why we LDS give answers to your question but you rarely accept them because you have a perception of what the LDS church does from your readings – but that is not what actually happens.
Plus read what Gundeck wrote. Here is a little bit – “all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense“
Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?
Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dump images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word.
The last answer totally excludes crosses.
But lucky its faith that saves us NOT what we do! 🙂
How hard would it be to find a cross that has been struck by lightning? Hmmmmmm?
The real trick would be to find a Mormon somewhere that is stupid enough to suggest that the lightning meant that Christians were in the wrong church or better yet – that the cross should not be a symbol of Christianity.
I guess that kind of stupidity only exists at Mormon Coffee. Grasping at straws now are we?
GRCluff, if you think we are interpreting this as sufficient or decisive evidence that Mormonism is wrong, you are wrong.
Cluff,
Who is more stupid, the people at mormon coffee or the defenders of mormonism who rise to the bait every time? Think about it.
Arthur:
Come on now, I love to rise to the bait. What do you think keeps me coming back? Bait the hook again, I’ll bite.
Aaron:
You are right. My stronger argument would have been one of disrespect. You know, Mormons have enough respect for Christian traditions that they are able to avoid yucking it up if the cross on the local Christian Church gets hammered. Where is your sense of respect?
shem said: “What is the point? Would you laugh if Lightning struck your church? What good does it serve to Mock others?”
Shem, we don’t see eye to eye on anything. But, I have to say that you expressed my sentiments about this report of lightning hitting something you revere as a hallmark of your faith. I don’t agree with you where Mormonism is concerned, but I don’t see the point in making this act of nature the focus of a thread.
Peace and Grace!
Cluff, I hope that what keeps you coming back is that nagging sense that the whole house of cards that is mormonism is not as rock solid as you like to say it is. I pray that what keeps you coming back is the working of the Holy Spirit on your heart. I pray that one of these days the light will come on, the scales will fall from your eyes as they did from mine when the sovereign Lord of creation intruded into my life, shattered my self-reliance and notions of personal worthiness and showed Himself to me and showed myself to me. I pray that is what keeps you coming back.
Shematwater, Ralph, GRCluff,
Let me ask you a question that have never gotten an answer to. What is the Mormon position on the Second Commandment? Why is it acceptable to have pictures of the first vision? Why are paintings of the Nephite baptisms acceptabe? Try this go to your Church home page. Then check out the PCA home page.
OK Gundeck,
On the LDS home page there is a picture of Jesus Christ. On the PCA (I assume you meant Presbyterian Church of America not Peanut Collectors in Australia) home page there is a distorted picture of the world. What is your point?
If you go to the PCA CEP home page (PCA Christian Educational Publications) there is a picture of John Calvin. Does this prove anything?
Pictures and statues are nothing but decoration – it is what the person thinks/does in response to these things that is right or wrong. I said on an earlier blog that I don’t care if my daughters are given a cross (necklace/earrings) as a present and wear it. I wouldn’t buy one for them myself. I don’t care if others use it to ‘symbolise’ Jesus’ atonement. As I said in my last post above – its the apparent worship some give to the cross that I object to. If they are not bowing down to it and praying to it then that’s fine.
But your quotes exclude any type of characterisation or picture of a person place or thing including crosses in the church buildings/grounds. So if the church you go to has any type of decoration, including the cross, then you are breaking the second commandment according to the quotes you gave above.
Thank goodness for grace and faith without works – you can get away with it! 🙂
Ralph,
“Pictures and statues are nothing but decoration” This is your position on the second commandment?
gundeck:
The second commandment is why we don’t have a cross on the top of each of our chapels. How does that work for you?
Your position on the second commandment is to ignore the command to take up the cross (Matt 16:24; Luke 9:23) and decorate your buildings with graven images?
There is a big difference between accepting the charge to serve God, and adorning our buildings with a graven image. The cross, like any other image can voilate the second commandment if we give undue reverence to the image, and insufficient reverence to God. The cross often does serve that purpose, in my opinion.
maybe i got a weird sense of humor and irony, but I am still chuckling..
Is there a difference? This was a command from Jesus Christ, we are not talking about the crusades or dollar store trinkets. Christ’s Church has taken the symbol that He bought for us and told us to use in identification with His sacrifice, to remind us of the sacrifice we are to make. There is a biblical command to take up the cross, not to worship the cross. Anything that you worship instead of God is idolatry (Col 3:5)to venerate the symbol or prescribe powers to it would be idolatry.
There is also a biblical command not to make images of God. This was not a suggestion. Remember that on Sunday. Anything that you worship instead of God is idolatry (Col 3:5)
again, i am amazed at the ignorance of mormons here. i love this blog but still cannot see the point of arguing w/active mormons. it is truly a “hamster wheel” discussion. to think, i was a member less than 6 months ago… wow.
the reason to why this is absolutely comical in my eyes is the title “the curse of cain returns” … rather than pointing out the unfortunate event (i.e., lightning strike) that took place, the finality (a blackened face on Nephi) and the punchline here is hillarious! even mormons have to acknowledge the comedy in this … c’mon! after all, it was their leadership that made this act … well, funny. great post aaron, and thank you LDS “prophets and apostles” for giving me a good laugh to round out the day!
GOD BLESS!
I thought the whole thing was funny too. Must be Mormons have to give up caffeine, alcohol, and their sense of humor.
Linda,
I thought it was funny too – read my very first comment above. We don’t have to give up our humour – however we do need to make sure we don’t make light of sacred things. In this case a the scorching of a lightning strike on a statue is nothing sacred, just nature. But as I said – great photo.
Gundeck,
If you read Exodus 20:
Sorry hit the wrong button.
Gundeck,
If you read Exodus 20:4-6 you will find the original 2nd commandment. Verse 4 ends with a colon – indicating a further clarification after. Verse 5 states quite clearly that we are not allowed to “bow down thyself to them, nor serve them”. So reading the full commandment in context it does not say we cannot have decorations of sculptures or pictures around, it says that if we do we cannot bow down and worship or serve the statues. Now I couldn’t care less if you have a cross on you buildings or in your homes if it is a reminder/symbol of your beliefs. It is the bowing down in front of and apparent worship of the crucifix that the RCs (and some others) do that I think crosses (no pun intended) the line. The Israelites, after being given the commandments, made the Arc of the Covenant with 2 cherubims on top; they made a basin of water in front of the temple on a sculpture of 12 oxen; Moses sculpted a brass (or bronze) serpent and placed it on a pole. There are many other instances in the Bible where sculptures and pictures are used by the true believers.
So yes, that is my take on the 2nd commandment. But like I said, if you believe in what you have quoted above then even the cross is not allowed despite the scripture you quote.
In fact, if you look at the scripture you quoted, Jesus said it a while before His death. Did His followers start using crosses from then on? If we are to take what you said about those verses, then they should have. If they didn’t then they are not following Jesus properly and He did not correct them. So those verses do not show that we have to use the cross as a symbol – they are talking figuratively.
I am amazed all of the above came out of the picture and the storm. I am also a little more off than I thought, I guess. I looked at the picture and went, Cool. Look at that. I wonder how it happened actually. Lightening is hot. And Moroni does not seem to have melted. I wonder how the temple was built, and how the “earthing” was done…(What they call grounding in Singapore). Moroni must have been earthed to show no damage. DId the earth melt where the copper post went in. Was there any collateral damage in the Temple? Any of the electronics get fried?
And then I thought about topography. The Temple there is not that old, I think. So, it has become a lightening rod for the storms flowing through the valley. I then wondered how many other tall buildings have been struck by lightning there. Church steeples most likely have been struck. And then like Dug in “UP” I saw a squirrel, and went “Squirrel!” and raced off to something else.
Laugh, contend, bait and set the hook, bait and switch, confront, anger passion. This was a real treat today. Thanks for the adventure.
Uh, actually when you look closer at the picture, you can see the lightening rod sticking up a few inches from the top of Moroni’s head. At least that is what I think it is. this reminds me of the time in Junior High when we were waiting in the hall between classes, and everyone was trying to be cool talking about cool junior hi stuff, and I was tracking an ant trail. It went a very long ways. And I was going about it like a true explorer, bent over, walking slow, and exclaiming at its length. One of the cool girls made a comment about this, and soon, everyone was laughing at me. I was surprised, disappointed, embarrassed, and nonchalant, in a Jimmy Neutronesque sort of way… Probably kind of like now….
Figjam,
Praise be to God for you! Six months? That’s terrific! What’s your story?
I absolutely agree (and love) your language “arguing w/active mormons. it is truly a “hamster wheel” “. It is! What I have to wonder is, why they think we are here talking to them at all???
My original post was not concerning the event, but the fact that it was put on this thread. The event was an interesting one, as Ward points out. I just don’t think it is an appropriate topic for a site like this, and in this context shows a great lack of disrespect.
AARON
The Spirit of God does not, and God himself doesn’t at all times, but he does find it nice to have a house to rest in once in a while.
I know we disagree on this, but if you think about things from the LDS perspective you will see what I mean.
MOBABY
I know Christians (in general) do not worship the cross. However, the LDS do not worship the statue of the Angel Moroni, and yet we were being accused of it.
FIGJAM
I’d love to hear your story too and I couldn’t agree with you more regarding the hamster wheel that is any discussion with an active Mormon. What I think you’ll notice here is that we’re down to the same two maybe three Mormons who are addicted to Mormon Coffee. One of my exMo friends pointed out that their bishop(s) would not be happy if he knew what they were up to since they are not pojecting an image, on several fronts, that would be acceptable to the Morg hierarchy.
Here’s a quote I picked-up along with a summary of some insights that I wish were mine but come from someone else. From Psychology of the Psychic” by David Marks and Richard Kamman that I think can be extended to Mormons.
“Once a belief or expectation is found, especially one that resolves uncomfortable uncertainty, it biases the observer to notice new information that confirms the belief, and to discount evidence to the contrary. This self-perpetuating mechanism consolidates the original error and builds up an overconfidence in which the aruguments of opponents are seen as too fragmentary to undo the adopted belief.”
Quite frankly that’s why I believe that, for-the-most-part these discussions we have on Mormon Coffee or any blog for that matter with Mormons is probably a waste of time. I’ve noticed a sequence of events in coming out of Mormonism that is quite common and rarely do I see in exit stories that the exMo was defending Mormonism vigorously and than “wam, boom, bam” they have a “I should have had a V8” kind of moment. Generally what happens is they get a gnawing feeling that something isn’t right in the Morg. This causes them to do some independent research and once the loose thread on the Mormon sweater is pulled, the whole sweater falls apart.
There are those with “shaken testimony syndrom” that when they present their information to the bishop get a “I know all of that that you’re talking about and hay it doesn’t bother me-my testimony is solid”.
Falcon,
LOL! That was fun. Personally, I have trying to talk to my mother-in-law for years, and she goes back and forth with uncertainty about the church, to doubting herself and therefore going to more temple sessions. The scary thing i see happening there is that she is taking on more and more curse everytime (i.e. the seance). This may have to be my last entry for today, but I’d love to continue this discussion. Back to the point: I get a little excited on here (even with the pointlessness of talking to these remaining few “addicts”) because even thinking about LDS stuff makes me want to heave. I can’t stand any of it! You know how I feel? I have lots of awesome resources for you. By the way, have you had your name taken off the list? And are you born again? I assumed so because of the God Bless at the end of your earlier message…
Shematwater,
I don’t think you worship Moroni. I just wonder why the statue is up there – just a question?
Ralph,
I agree with your interpretation of the commandment regarding worshiping God alone, it is not all art that is banned but rather worshiping those objects, using them as a channel for faith, or as a good luck charm.
John Calvin came out of a Church that had a lot of idolatry going on – bowing before statues, praying to saints and Mary, etc. Thus, the modern Reformed or Calvinist Churches continue in this idea of not having any representation of God the Son or God the Father. It is not a bad thing in the sense it could never hurt anyone to avoid even any semblance of idolatry. But I don’t think all depictions of Jesus are inherently idolatry either. Christian Children’s books and videos are full of depictions of Jesus and others from the Bible. I think the basic truth is that it is a heart issue – idols are formed in our hearts and any object can become the focus of our sinful idolatrous hearts can be an idol – as a Christian I am aware of my idolatry and my need for a savior, forgiveness comes from outside the idol factory of my heart – it comes through the body and blood, the death of Jesus on the cross to wash away all my sins.
Hey, wait. I like coming here and talking. I have met some cool new friends. Aaron, Andy, Rick, Falcon, and others I haven’t met yet. I really like seeing our faith interpreted by our Mormon friends. It really makes me think. AND I have really learned an awesome amount from Falcon and Andy. And, if we didn’t have this, what would Aaron and Sharon do with their time??????
Seriously, I really have grown in my EC/BC faith. I am not ashamed to admit this. I am in my 47th year of following Jesus Christ, and I am still learning! I appreciate every one of you. If even one Mormon reads any of this, and sees the chinks in the wall, then so much the better. Well, I have to sign off and go to my board meeting. Grace and Peace, all y’all.
MOBABY
You didn’t make the accusation, but others did, which is what I originally responded too, which response you responded to.
I will say that looking back there was only one that did this (Jerry Holt quoting Exodus) but it was brought up in the descussions later.
As to why we have that stature, it is really very simple. Moroni was the Ministring angel that issued in this last dispensation. He reveal to Joseph where the plates were and instructed him on the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon and the gospel in these last days. He holds the keys to the “Stick of Ephraim” which was prophecied by Ezekial, and is believed by many to be the angel spoken of in Revelation 14: 6 who came with the everlasting gospel.
In short, the statue is a symbol of this last dispensation which will bring all the plans of God together in one glorious fulfillment.
Shematwater,
Thank you for the explanation. I see that you (and other Mormons?) believe in dispensationalism? Historically, Christians have not subscribed to the dispensational view of history. This has been a rather recent development that came about in the 1800s. I completely disagree with the idea of there being “dispensations” – God has dealt with man throughout history, we are dealing with the same God, under the same rules that Abraham, David, Peter, and Paul did. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice and fulfilled the law, but the law is still in effect, it is just that we are trusting the one and only one who could fulfill it. I do believe in convenants – the Old convenant of law/works, and the new covenant of grace/gospel. Ultimately, no one is justified by law – the Bible says even Abraham was justified by faith. The law shows us our sin and inability to please God on our own, while the gospel displays God’s amazing love in His provision for our salvation through Jesus Christ, fulfilling the sacrificial system of atonement in the Old Testament. The new convenant is the old convenant perfectly fulfilled. The Lord’s Supper is where we commune with Christ and partake of that perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ – the body and the blood of Christ given for our sins – just as in the Old Testament they would eat the sacrificial lamb. Jesus is the lamb provided by God for our sins. Believers can say with confidence I am saved and completely forgiven through Christ because Jesus perfectly fulfilled God’s law and was the perfect atoning sacrifice. It’s not about me, it is about Jesus and Him crucified. Jesus was and is that glorious fulfillment of all of God’s plans.
Arthur said:
Cluff, I hope that what keeps you coming back is that nagging sense that the whole house of cards that is mormonism is not as rock solid as you like to say it is. I pray that what keeps you coming back is the working of the Holy Spirit on your heart.
It seems that falcon is stuck on a similar theme, with an overblown effort to isolate the particular frame of mind that Mormons have.
Sorry, I can’t say it is the Holy Spirit that keeps me coming back. I happen to love debate on the issues I feel strongly about. I love conservatism as well and love to debate politics, for example. If you are liberal, maybe we can tackle that in another blog.
An interesting point of fact that may shine some light on both issues is the frame of mind required to get a Mormon testimony in the first place. If you read Moroni’s promise (Moroni 10:3-5) carefully, it says you must have “real intent” before the Holy Ghost can witness with power, as Paul mentions. ( 1 Cor 2:1-5 ). Real intent means you must be willing to do whatever the Holy Ghost says you must do. That means that everyone who asks in faith- INCLUDING long time members of the church must be willing to leave the church, or accept it as the spirit indicates. If you are not willing to leave the church, you CAN NOT get an answer to you prayer. You could not have “real intent”.
Those of us who have a real testimony WERE ready to leave the church. The irony is, you can’t have a real testimony until then.
In the same context, anyone who would never join the LDS Chruch for whatever reason, cannot expect a witness of any kind, for or against the Church.
I am here to learn what those reasons might be. What evidence has you convinced that Mormons are wrong – they are stealing your “real intent”. If you can balance them out with evidence on the other side of the argument, you can have real intent again, and then God can work with you like he has been working with me.
and, i’m sorry. i was so confused with the 9 different accounts of the “first vision”, i accidentally said it was “nephi” instead of “moroni” with a blackened face. 🙂 was hoping someone would’ve caught that. it doesn’t matter, i suppose. it would be like misnaming a Muppet. characters contrived in the mind of Jim Henson are comparable to those in the mind of Joseph Smith. and don’t opine. i have every right to say that. why? my story is, in my opinion, and interesting one. too few characters in this type of format to explain. briefly, i was baptized (a.k.a., brain-washed and mislead) by my girlfriend’s family @ 18, I spent approx. 12 years in the “church”. i recently divorced (yes, i was the plaintiff) my wife of 4 years. primary cause = MORMONISM – after finding the ABSOLUTE truth, I resigned, leaving everything I knew behind, including family. if anyone would like to contact me about my circumstance, email me: [email protected]
Shematwater,
Where does Jesus tell us that he wants us to have the chance to decide for ourselves?
Ralph,
Staring with the the disciples and the cross, in their context (Matt 10:38; 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:27)it is plain that the disciples didn’t even comprehend the nature of Jesus’s messiahship much less the connection to the cross. This true understanding does not come to them until after the resurrection. So no it would have been pointless to have a symbol that served no function prior to the crucifixion.
There are in fact instances of statues being used in the Bible, but there is not a single instance where the image of God is commanded much less allowed. Is it your contention that there is a divine revelation on par with Numbers 21:8 commanding the Mormons to ignore the second commandment and create pictures and statues of God the Father? My understanding of the second commandment would bar producing pictures of Jesus, others would disagree, as mobaby points out. I think that this shows in the construction of our Churches and styles of worship. Confessional Reformed Churches beleive that we are regulated in our worship to do only what is commanded.
I would not base a theology on a punctuation mark that is not in the original texts. The AV uses a colon (depending on the edition), the NKJV uses a semi-colon, the NASB uses a period the translation used in the Westminster Standards (AV) uses a colon. I wouldn’t risk building a theology on idolatry based the interpretation of a punctuation mark especially when we have God’s testimony on this matter in so many other places (Deut 4:15, 16; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:21–23, 25) to help us understand his law.
Growing up Catholic, we had lots of statues. It used to tick us off when people said we prayed to statues. We weren’t that lame even in the 1950s. However, and this is a big however, we praryed to the saints symbolized by the statues. Major no,no. The idea of course, if my memory serves me right is that the saints would carry our petitions to Jesus and then to the Father. Oh brother!
There is one mediator between God and man and His name is what? Yes, Jesus! The whole venerating the saints program is really………I don’t know, give me a word someone. Praying to Mary on and on……..not good! Ah but free I am. Don’t harbor any nasty thoughts about the church anymore. Most of my family is still Catholic, me being the “lapsed” one. We’re all cool with it. No big deal!
Falcon said – “One of my exMo friends pointed out that their bishop(s) would not be happy if he knew what they were up to since they are not pojecting an image, on several fronts, that would be acceptable to the Morg hierarchy.”
This is not true. Both my bishop and my stake president know what I do on this site. They are my brothers-in-law, so I can’t get away from them. I have been following this site now for a bit over 3 years and every temple recommend interview with both my bishopric and stake presidency member I mention what I do here and they say its fine. But then again, I’m in Australia, we have a different social lifestyle here.
Also your quote about belief covers the Traditional Christians as well. You have chosen your path of faith and every little thing you want to take as evidence for it you do. Every time someone shows or gives evidence against you reject it. That is what belief and faith are – a hope and trust in something unknown or unseen, and this can be kept despite the evidence (as per a quote from germit a while back). So yes, use that quote against the LDS church, but also know it speaks against your beliefs as well.
As someone said on another website “Christianity – The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree”
Try telling them there is evidence for your faith.
Ah Ralph has once again stepped into the little trap I set for him. The article that I was referencing said that folks should write that quote on a card and ask Mormons if they think it applies to Christianity and of course without my asking, our Buddy Ralph did. And see that’s the whole point. Mormons can explain away the most out in left field facts and information about Joseph Smith, the BoM, the current and past prophets and the Mormon church in order to go on supporting a fantasy that the average person can dismiss in an instant.
Christianity is not based on a feeling as Mormonism is. Because Mormonism is feelings based, obvious and well documented facts about the religion are rejected because they make the Mormon “feel” bad and don’t reinforce what they so desparately want to believe. In fact, Mormons are trained to run away from any discussion where their feelings lead them to believe that the spirit is not present. Actually what’s happening is that reality is not matching what the Mormon wants to believe and it makes them “feel” bad.
This is why, until a Mormon has the AHHA, lightbulb in the brain switching on moment, they will go on with the most out-in-left-field explanations for everything from the angel with a sword threatening to kill Joseph Smith if he didn’t start “marrying” other women, to his “marrying” of already married women, to his taking of a 14 year old girl in Mormon marrage, to his rock in the hat “translation” technique, to his totally bogus BoA translation and on and on. That’s why Ralph says he’d kill or steal if ordered to by “the prophet”. That’s cult brain-lock thinking and the chance that our buddy Ralph could ever escape from this is pretty dim….and he can’t even see it.
But as they say, ignorance is bliss and Mormons are among the most blissful folks you’d ever want to meet.
Falcon,
It makes you feel as though there is a huge mountain of garbage to get through, to talk to one and have them hear, right? Only God can remove the garbage, that’s the blessed relief of burden. I wish I were an artist. I’d paint a sequence of pictures where an LDS missionary hand some unsuspecting person a telescope, promising that if the person look through it, they’ll see God afar off. Only, when the person looks through it, all the light they can see is totally obscured by a big picture of a temple or something. Then, in the last photo, the person has put down the telescope, and is standing next to an open Bible, basking in the glow of God with as He freely sheds it. Something like that. Clearly I’m not a writer either. 🙂
GUNDECK
The Bible tells us this is true, as long as we are willing to use the powers of logic and reason that God has so graciously bestowed on us.
If God did not want us to have the power to decide why put the tree of Good and Evil in the Garden? Especially when you look at it from the Christian perspective. If he created everything then he created this tree. Why? The only reason is to give Adam and Eve a choice. If he didn’t want them to have the choice he didn’t need to create the tree.
No, Christ does not state “I want you to be able to choose.” But from his actions, and those of the Father, it is very evident that he did. If he is all powerful he could control our thoughts and dictate our actions, thus we would not have the power to choose. He has not done this, but has given us our agency, because he wants us to have it. Whatever you believe his motivation to be you must except this, or you have denied his power.
FALCON
There is no “fact” of church history or doctrine that I am not aquainted with. There are few myths about these things that I am not aquainted with. The fact remains that no one has ever proven a contradiction in doctrine, or shown anything from history that I can object to.
I find it rather interesting that all “Mormons” have to be stupid and unwilling to listen to opposing evidence. It seems to be a fact among christians that “Mormons” cannot be intelligent. While it is insulting, as most members are well educated and intelligent people, it is also an honor. Didn’t Paul say that God would use the foolish things to confound the wise (1 Cor. 1:27).
MOBABY
Always glad to help others understand the verious parts of our religion.