Joseph is pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above?

MRM received the following e-mail from a Mormon on March 27:


I must comment on a little section quoted regarding the poem / hymn “The Seer, Joseph The Seer” by John Taylor. Your written word states :

The portion quoted by Hinckley is rather innocuous compared to some of the other lines. For instance, in the first stanza we find:

“His equal now cannot be found, By searching the wide world around. With Gods he soared in the realms of day, And men he taught the heavenly way.”

Another stanza states:

“The saints, the saints, his only pride! For them he lived, for them he died! Their joys were his, their sorrows too, He loved the saints, he loved Nauvoo. Unchanged in death, with a Savior’s love, He pleads their cause in the courts above.”

Reading this, I must simply state Brother John Taylor hit the nail on the head. Indeed the equal of Joseph the Seer cannot be found searching the world around and indeed with Gods (yes plural) he soared the realms of day. And finally I must add how un offended I am at the concept of the prophet pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above. Otherwise thanks for publishing this poem / hymn written to honor the greatest man (with the exception of Jesus only) to have walked this earth. As you are fortunate enough to be so proximate to the headquarters of the restored Church of Jesus Christ – perhaps you should avail yourselves the opportunity to feel the Spirit of God and let it witness to you of the prophetic calling of Joseph the Seer.



Bold emphasis is mine. This e-mail evokes a lot of emotions in me. The Holy Spirit in me aches over this kind of thing.

Just give me Jesus.

Start at 17m 55s.

This song gives me heart and body a shiver of awe. Take all my idols away, Jesus.

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136 Responses to Joseph is pleading the cause of the Saints in the courts above?

  1. GRCluff says:

    You keep on selling the wisdom of men when the power of God is were we should live:

    1 Cor 2:5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    For the record:

    the history of the first 400 years = the wisdom of men.

    thinking of the Church Fathers = the wisdom of men.

    independent study = the wisdom of men.

    big boy pants = the wisdom of men.

    the Nicean creed = the wisdom of men.

    I will stay in my training briches as long as they come fully equiped with the power of God and the gift of the Holy Ghost. (and they do) Those are some pretty good briches.

    As long as you continue to depend on the wisdom of men, God can not reach you and you are lost. Too arrogant for the kingdom of God – with the wrong foundation for truth. A foundation made of sand.

    The witness of the Holy Ghost is infinitely more reliable that mountians of your fabricated “evidence”. It was made by man, with a little help the advesary, and you have bought it, hook, line and sinker.

  2. FIGJAM says:

    i think you have briches confused with “magic mormon underwear” (a.k.a. – temple garments). second, your ignorance and indoctrinated commentary is downright repulsive. you worship a false jesus, not the Biblical Jesus. your God is one of many. your god was once as we were and not from eternity to all eternity. how can you sit there and say that it is the gift of the Holy Ghost that “lines” your britches? you’re a downright blaspheme. that feeling in your britches is pooh my friend. it’s symbolic of what joseph smith taught and what he was full of.

  3. Ralph says:


    My point with my last post was to show you that I have more than just a Spiritual witness, as you seem to have me pegged. My Spiritual witness came after other ‘proof’ was given. And since then I have had more ‘proof’ showing me the truthfulness of the LDS church. But it is the Spiritual witness that supersedes all others as it is from God.


    I have 3 beautiful daughters and soon need to invest in a baseball bat. BTW Father’s day is in September in Australia but thanks anyway.

  4. FIGJAM says:

    @ Falcon – no worries “mate”, i’ll send you a happy father’s day then, as well! 🙂 it is all love here.

  5. falcon says:

    You’re beginning to sound like blah, blah, blah. Lots of noise but no scholarship. Just continuation of Mormon sloganeering with no substance.
    Here’s the nub of the matter: you don’t have the witness of the Holy Ghost. That’s the bottom line with Mormons. That idea (that you’re hearing from God) is what keeps you entangled in the cult despite the mountains of evidence that proves that the whole program is a scam. It’s the desire to believe it’s true that keeps you thinking that you’re hearing from God. I’ve been down this road countless times with folks who are Christians also. With them, it’s a deep desire to hear from God coupled with a desire to be spiritual.
    Actually, it’s not a bad desire, but it leads to a lot of error and that’s the problem also with people tied up in cults.
    In Mormonism, the witness of the holy ghost that you claim, has you giving approval to sinful and downright nasty behavior on the part of Joseph Smith. It also has you following a spirit that attached itself to Smith via his occult practices.
    I can see your indoctrination and mindset when you just keep using the “broken record” tactic in writing here. It’s all just “I believe, I know” over and over again in the face of overwhelming evidence that it’s all false. The indoctrination and conditioning to continue believing and to not use any type of logic or wisdom keeps you entangled in a web of deceit that will be your spiritual distruction. God gave us an intellect for a reason and expects us to use it. A couple of parents in our area are going to prison because they withheld needed medical treatment from their daughter, opting instead for prayer. The little girl died when she could have lived with the proper treatment. They can claim medical treatment is “wisdom from men” and that they were “hearing from God”.

    I’m glad you continue to write here because it provides me with first hand experience and insights dealing with the mind set of a cult member.

  6. Olsen Jim says:

    Jackg, Falcon, et al,

    Your religious foundation comes from the Protestant movement. Do you understand that word? People who were protesting what was the apostasy of the Catholic church.

    I therefore think it very strange that you would claim there was no apostasy. Even many of those reformers recognized the lack of structure and authority of the ancient church.

    I suppose if you focus closely enough on what you perceive as the wrongs of another religion, it will allow you to ignore the foundation on which you stand.

    You have nothing outside of the Bible. Period. That is the reason, I believe, that you worship the Bible instead of the God who gave it. Left in a vacuum, modern Christianity strains to interpret the scriptures in a way that makes sense of that vacuum.

    I very much appreciate the faith and commitment of Christiain reformers and the faith of those here. It has been a great force for good in the world. But they have today what is a mere piece of the puzzle.

  7. Olsen Jim says:


    Modern Christianity is like the inhabitants of a small island- descendents of a people who long ago traveled across the sea from the mainland and continent of civilization. After many generations, their understanding of their origins were corrupted and lost. Ultimately, they believe they are THE mainland when in reality they are a small island in the middle of the ocean.

  8. shematwater says:


    Yes, I have been insulting, and I have been contentious. However, when one is being attacked it becomes necessary to defend, and the Best defense is a Good offense.
    Matthew 18: 20 is not a problem to those who understand the truth of things. Christ is with us, in spirit. He is with us, but we do not see him. We cannot know that it is he who is personally with us, or an angel sent by him. All we know is that when we are gathered in Faith his spirit and power go with us.
    Of course, you will say this rediculous, but that is fine. I do not Believe Christ can be in more than one place at a time, and thus this cannot be a reference to a personal visit. To me God is not “Omnipresent,” nor is he in LDS doctrine.
    As to documentation of what I said, I gave it to you from the Book of Mormon, the “Key Stone” of LDS doctrine. Why is is not discussed in length? Because it does not need to be. Because it is a simple concept, and one that is fully explained in the chapter in which it arises. We follow the living Prophets, who have said not to pray to Christ. Yes, the Nephites did, but we are told why they did by Christ. We need no other explanation, and thus we can live the commands we are given, and not worry about those that are not given.
    Also, I don’t care how many times you attended the LDS sunday meetings. You own words seem to suggest that your motivation was not proper. You “minister to mormons.” Your focus is destroying the LDS church. Was there ever a time when your focus was learning the truth? From what you say it is hard to see how there could have been. The simple fact is that, from your own words, you don’t want to know the truth of the LDS doctrine. You want to know how you can prove it wrong, and that is all. I can’t say why this is, or if this was always your motivation. But that is the only motivation you have shown in this threads.

  9. shematwater says:


    You are seeing whqat is not there.
    “Why would they not tell me that the Mormon god and jesus are different?” Different from what? From what you believed, or from the Bible? it seems obvious, since they were there, that it was different from what you believed. As to the Bible, tell me, who has the truth of the Bible? Seventh Day adventists? Baptists? Chatholics? Methodists? All are different, so which has the true Christ of the Bible?
    “Why would they want my money and my promise not to smoke or drink alcohol or have caffiene, and to admit JS is a prophet and be baptized?” God wants your money (tithing is all through the scriptures). God wants you to be healthy (the body is a temple). God wants you to be baptized (Mark 16: 16). The only thing here not found in the Bible is Joseph Smith. Yet even Paul says that we should be built on a foundation of Prophets (Ephesians 2: 20). Seems to me as though the Missionaries wanted you to love God (John 14: 15). What is so misleading about that.

    Everything else you said is garbage. It seems like very little was witheld from you. Second, you cannot learn things in reverse, nor can you learn everything at one time. In the first lesson some things must be withheld or the student will never learn. You cannot learn calculus before algebra, nor can you learn them both in a one hour lesson, and only a fool would demand such.
    The church has the missionaries teach the very basics of the gospel, that which is needed to gain a full salvation. Once a member they teach the “Member discussions” to expand each persons understanding. After that they are in the Gospel Escentials class each sunday which adds more to their understanding. After a year or two in this class they move into the Gospel Doctrines Class to gain an even greater understanding. During this time they are also learning in either the Relief Society or Priesthood classes. All this is done to gradually build their understanding and faith

  10. shematwater says:

    Thus, by teaching Line up Line, and Precept on Precept, weaning them off the milk before giving them the strong meat, each person is prepared with strength and understanding so that they can continue to learn and study on their own.
    This is much like the school system we have today. Children start in elementry school, move to Middle School, then High School, then College (undergraduate and then graduate). However, the school system is not able to teach all students all things that can be learned, nor should it be expected to. They teach enough to prepare each student to go out and learn the rest on their own.

    To say that the LDS church is lying for not telling you everything all at once is to call all elementrary school teachers liars, for they did not tell their students everything at once.

  11. shematwater says:

    Didn’t Christ say that a man who is angry in his heart is guilty of Murder? Just though I would mention it, as you seem to express your anger as though it justifies you in the vileness of you words.

    “Jesus was a man that “worked” for his salvation.” Yes, but his life in the pre-existance made it a sure thing. In Hebrews 3: 2 it speaks of Jesus “Who was faithful to him that appointed him…” In Hebrews 4: 15 it tells us he was tempted just like us, but did not sin (indicating good works). What people don’t understand about this is that Christ was born of God. He was his only Begotten in the Flesh. Thus Christ had a greater power in him to resist evil. But it was still required that he do so.

    “Mary was a virgin, but only because she was impregnated by a immortal being that came from his home planet of kolob (just as mortal beings are begotten by mortal man, right?)” I love the way you do your best to make things sound their worst. All I can say is prove it wrong.

    “we cannot die in sin, right?” Where do you get this? Of course we can die in our sins. Millions have done so throughout history. If you really think this is LDS doctrine then you have proven your lack of knowledge on the subject.

    “adam is god – got it.” At least this is a common misunderstanding, but it is a misunderstanding. A few facts about this. Yes, Adam is a god. No, he is not the Father. Yes, he is our god. He is the leader of this Earth, the Father of this human family. Christ is the savior of all the Father’s children, on all worlds that he has placed them on. Adam, while under Christ in authority, will lead us on this planet.

    “polygamy is necessary for celestial glory.” Again, prove it wrong. Also, just to clarify, you do not have to live polygamy, you only have to except it.

    You are not neive. You are a fool, blinded by the craftiness of men, and if you ever fealt the spirit you are guilty of a greater crime then many of those you chose to believe.

  12. falcon says:

    CLUFF’s favorite line as of late is that he has the “witness from the Holy Ghost”. Now if we were operating here under a rule of full-disclosure, what our Mormon friends like CLUFF should say is, “I have a witness from the spirit of Mormonism”, that’s more descriptive of the Mormon claim.
    We’ve clearly established here that Momons do not acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the Bible. Mormons have different entities that they acknowledge as their gods. The gods they acknowledge along with a jesus and a holy ghost come from Joseph Smith the occultist. So please don’t use the term “Holy Ghost” because it means something entirely different in Smithism than it does in Biblical, orthodox Christianity. There is an understanding in Christianity of who the Holy Ghost is. It’s all part of the deception of Mormonism to suck people in using Christian terms and then pulling the old bait and switch con job routine on them.
    The Holy Ghost is omnipresent, omniscient, omipotent, eternal, He is God, He is made equal with the Father and the Son. The names and titles of the Holy Spirit are; Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Eternal Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Spirt of Grace, Spirit of Glory, Spirit of Life, Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, the Comforter, Spirit of Promise, Spirit of Adoption, Spirit of Holiness, and Spirit of Faith.
    The holy ghost you speak of is none of this. So when you have a witness from the holy ghost, who is that witness from. A study of the life of Joseph Smith and his spiritual foundation, the spirits that appeared to him, the occult practices and rituals of Mormonism makes it very clear what that religion is all about.
    So you have a witness of the spirit of Mormonism that Joseph Smith conjured and communicated with. Your past prophets write of communicating with dead spirits including the signers of the Declaration of Independence. This is weird and it’s dangerous and you are up to your eyeballs in it.

  13. shematwater says:


    You have only proved that you believe differently. You have not proved anything else, and cannot prove anything else. No one can prove anything that is generally discussed on this site, except that some people believe it and others don’t. The only proof is through the Holy Spirit that testifies of all truth. All anyone on this site, or indead in any form of conversation, is explain what they believe, and why they believe it, and then leave the matter of proof to God.


    I have had enough of the insults. Yes I have said people here are idiots, ignorant, ridiculous, and a few other more serious things. However, I, and the rest of the LDS have been called the same, as well as liars, con-artists, devil worshipers, and a host of other blatantly false things. I have shown a spirit of contention, which I do not like, but it was in response to vile contentions of wicked men directed at myself, my people, my leaders, and my God.
    I apologize for any insult I may have given, and I will forget all insults directed at me. But this is the last I will post on this thread.

  14. falcon says:

    Yes it is true that we do believe differently, however only one of us can have the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Mormons claim a different gospel, then we must point out that they are in error. Christianity is the standard. Deviations from the norm of Biblical, orthodox Christianity are either aberrent, heretical or a totally different religion depending how far off of the norm they deviate.
    Mormonism is clearly so far off of the bubble that it is not a form of Christianity. The roots of Mormonism is in the occult. Please read Mormon authors Bushman, Quinn and Palmer where this is all made abundantly clear. If Mormons want to claim that they are following a spirit and are hearing a spirit, they just need to be clear what type of spirit they are following and hearing. Don’t attempt to masquerade as one thing while being something totally different. By doing this, Mormons operate under a spirit of deception. Mormons have a religious spirit it’s true, but it’s a spirit forged in the occult experiences of their founder Joseph Smith.
    If Mormons are eager to experience God’s Holy Spirit, this can be done. But first they must reject the spirit of Mormonism and be born again through the Jesus of the Bible, and God will provide for them His Holy Spirit.

  15. FIGJAM says:

    Shem: Here again, your lack of knowledge concerning your own faith. So, in your first comment, either your jesus was a sinner, or he was able to do something not even his “father” (i.e., Mormon’s Heavenly Father) do – achieve god hood before going through mortal probation.

    Mary: Bruce McConkie wrote, “For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being … He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple” (The Promised Messiah, pp. 466, 468). He also stated, “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 547. – Joseph F. Smith stated, “Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father … Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body” (Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, pp.125,126).

    Sin: To summarize Spencer W. Kimball in the “Miracle of Forgiveness” (p. 313), ALMA 34: 32-36 states that you must repent here in this life as there is no repentance in the afterlife. This means that one must be free of sin before he/she takes their last breath. The difference between this theology and the bible is that the bible teaches that you are forgiven upon your death bed if you believe in the true Jesus Christ.

    Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th President of the LDS Church, declared, “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.163. Also cited in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual: Religion 231 and 232, p.40). So shem, if you believe your doctrine, complete abadonment of sin is required for true repentance, according to your “prophets”.

  16. FIGJAM says:

    Are you completely “out of sin”? If so, how did you accomplish this shem? This bluntly says that you cannot die in sin. If you are “out of sin” wouldn’t you be perfect? Wouldn’t that negate the purposes of Christ’s atonement? (I can see some rhetoric starting already)

    Adam-God Doctrine: Shem, do you believe in your church “prophets” and their “revealation”? Just a question before you read the following: President Brigham Young via stenographer George D Watts recording at an 1852 General Conference – Young said he intended to discuss “who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary”, a subject which he said “has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day”. Transcript continues: “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken — He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.

    The transcript then reads: “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family”. Young explained that Adam “was begotten by his Father in heaven” in the same way that Adam begat his own sons and daughters, and that there were “three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael”. “Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.”

  17. FIGJAM says:

    President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: “Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation” (Journal of Discourses 1:51).

    Shem, I personally don’t believe that Adam is God? But, regardless of it you do or don’t, aren’t you treating these “doctrines” lightly or with indifference”? “Wasn’t Spencer Kimball treating Young’s teaching with indifference when he called it a “false doctrine” (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn’t this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?

    Shem, next time you ask for proof, you should read your own history and doctrine. You feeble attempts to undermine through will go unnoticed by many, but not in this platform where knowledge and truth has been given to us by the Biblical Christ.

    Blinded by the craftiness of men, huh shem? If you can agree to such blasphemy as stated above, look in the mirror and ask yourself who is truly blinded. The evidence is there. The LDS church is the fruit of the adversary. It is proven time and time again via bogus texts and doctrine.

  18. FIGJAM says:

    Thanks to, wikipedia, and the heretical mormon church and its “leaders” for the resources

  19. falcon says:

    I reviewed with my go to guy on the subject, Andy Watson, what Mormonism teaches about the Holy Ghost. Andy tells me that in Mormonism they’re is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is like an energy source (my words)that flows from the Mormon Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost on the other hand is the third son of Mormon Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother after Jesus and Lucifer.
    The Holy Ghost of Mormonism is considered “a god” which is kind of strange since “a god” is suppose to have a body which the Mormon Holy Ghost does not. Also the Mormon Holy Ghost is constricted to being only in one place at a time.
    So we can see quite plainly that once again, what Mormons believe in has no relationship to Biblical Christianity. The fact that Mormons are willing to believe that Joseph Smith restored first century Christianity is a farce beyond any logic hence the need for conspiracy theories to explain away the obvious which is that Smith was a charleton.
    So Mormons must admit that they do not have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the Bible. What they think they are hearing is not coming from God. Having given themselves over to this religious spirit of delusion that guides Mormonism, Mormons have separated themselves from God and embraced a lie rather than the truth. This will result in serious consequences for them and their families.

  20. GRCluff says:

    I have good company-

  21. GRCluff says:

    Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    It seems that Peter came to his knowledge without a “scholarship” feather in his cap. I wonder who else got there that way?

  22. GRCluff says:

    The Bible can make it clear.

    1 Cor 12:3

    Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    That is not referencing things that Jesus did, but rather something WE need to do as we become Christian– that is confess by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ.

    Your problem to resolve- it is the SAME Holy Ghost that says Joseph Smith is a prophet. You can’t have one without the other.

    I may be drinking the Mormon kool aid, but it is the same kool aid about Jesus Christ. How do you explain that?

  23. Ralph says:

    OK Falcon,

    I have kept quiet on this but I can’t keep it any longer. We already have had a discussion about the Trinity and how various credible Christian sources say that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible but is an interpretation thereof. You still have not shown me how these sources are wrong; you have just attacked me instead to discredit not the sources. So instead of running away now, please, if you wish to state I am wrong then show how these references are wrong.

    To make it easy for you, here is the quote from one of them – The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT. Nevertheless, the discussion above and especially the presence of trinitarian formulas in 2 Cor. 13:14 (which is strikingly early) and Matt. 28:19 indicate that the origin of this mode of thought may be found very early in Christian history.” (Harper’s Bible Dictionary)

    Note the bolded. All of the sources state that the Trinity can be found by interpreting the Bible a certain way, but the doctrine is not in the Bible. If you want the list again with quotes then ask.

    But let’s look at your most recent claim about the LDS Holy Ghost not Biblical. but the Christian one is and it is God, apart from the above argument, do you know the history of the Trinity doctrine? The Nicean Creed was formed by a couple of councils held during the 4th century – the first one in AD 325. The deity described from the first council was a binitarian deity of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. They did not know how to classify the Holy Ghost at that point in time. It took almost 50 years before the final Trinity was decided upon. Now if the Bible is that easy to understand then why was it so difficult to formulate the final creed? At least our Godhead (ie 3 separate personages) is easier to find in the Bible than the Trinity is.

  24. Ralph says:

    Falcon and Berean,

    When it comes to definition of the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, if you go to the ‘Scriptures’ page on the LDS website then go to ‘Bible Dictionary’ and look at ‘Holy Spirit’ it states “See Holy Ghost”.

    Under ‘Holy Ghost’ it says ”The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). …Other names that sometimes refer to the Holy Ghost are Holy Spirit, Spirit of god, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.”

    So in our system, the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same. According to this, and our doctrine about it being a spirit being is clearly defined, while it indicates that Heavenly Father and Jesus have physical bodies. This is not hiding our doctrine if it is fully published on the internet on an official site. I believe you will find exactly the same if you went into the lesson manuals from the main page and looked up the ‘Gospel Principles’ book – that the complete doctrine of our Godhead is found for all the world to find.

  25. falcon says:

    If my memory serves me right, when it came to one of your credable sources, it was shown that you gave a partial quote. When the whole quote was given it totally contradicted what you were saying. This is not only intellectually dishonest, but it’s fraud.
    What a goofy statement you make regarding that the doctrine of the Trinity can be found by interpreting the Bible in a certain way but it’s not it the Bible???? Ralph your logic continues to escape me, but I see that it works for you.
    I’m not going to plow this same ground with you again Ralph. I spent days demonstrating to you the historical paper trail regarding the Churches’ articulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. I think you were totally dispatched and proved to be wrong in your attacks on the nature of God.
    Here’s the bottom line that’s been established:
    *Mormonism has a different God than Biblical Christianity.
    *Mormonism does not acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as clearly articulated in the Bible but has opted for another god, jesus and holy spirit.
    *The acknowledgement of Mormons of another Gospel, another scripture, another Father, Son and Holy Spirit leaves us to conclude that Mormonism derives it’s guidance from spiritual entities other than those clearly articulated by the Bible.
    *The involvement of Joseph Smith in occult practices and the continuation of Mormonism in occult rituals including those where spirits of the dead are conjured, clearly defines the source of Smith’s inspiration and Mormonisms’ guidance.

    Mormons have rejected the God of the Bible for another god and having rejected God’s plan of salvation for another gospel, Mormon’s have put themselves in total opposition to the living God. Having explained this multiple times to you, you can’t say you weren’t told.

  26. shematwater says:

    Okay, I have to say just one more thing, as FIGJAM seems to have messed things up rather badly in his interpretation of Brigham Young.


    I have read the entire sermon which you quote from, and I am astounded that you cannot see the error in your what you say.
    First, Brigham Young seems to say that Adam is the Holy Ghost, not the Father. He says there are “three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael.” However, he continues in saying “these three forming a quorum as in all heavenly bodies and in organizing element perfectly represented in the deity as father son and holy ghost.” Thus it seems more likely that he is calling Adam the Holy Ghost, and not the Father.
    Then you continue your very limited understanding of things by quoting “Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.” Since we know that the Father, or Eloheim, walked in the Garden, and after the Fall spoke to Adam from the Garden, this quote does not necessarily speak of Adam, but more likely speaks of Eloheim.
    Now, “He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken — He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.” But what does this actually mean? Christ is the savior of every world created by the Father, and thus he is king over them all, and will be visiting all of them. Therefore, the leader of this world, the one next in Authority to Christ, will be the God that we have direct dealings with, thus Adam is our God, or the God of this Earth, and he is the only one we will have dealings with directly. This does not mean he is the Father.

  27. shematwater says:


    On another point of your lack of understanding, you quote “And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family.” Now, to the limited mind of many this is an obvious reference to Adam. However, if we go back a little in the text of what was actually said, Brigham Young tells us “Our father in heaven begat all the spirits
    that ever were or ever will be upon this earth and they were born spirits in the eternal world.” Thus we see that the Father of the Human Family can easily be a reference to Eloheim, as we are his literal offspring. We were human is the pre-existance, even though we were spirit.

    So, by a careful reading of the entire words of this great man, and by having a good understanding of the other doctrine of the church, this idea, this theory, is sheer stupidity.
    Spencer W Kimbal was right in stating that we did not teach this, because Brigham Young never taught that Adam was the Father. He taught that Adam was a great prophet, one next to Christ in Authority who was one who helped organized the world. He also taught that the Father was the literal father of Christ’s body. He did not say these two were the same.

    Of Course you will never except this, and will continue to tell me that I have not read the words of the Prophets and don’t know the history of my church. However, it seems that I know it a whole lot better than you.

    On this point I had to set FIGJAM strait, for the sake of honesty and truth. Hope you will forgive my saying I would not post again, but then doing this, but this is one point I feel very strongly about.

  28. falcon says:

    Another thing Ralph,
    It seems you want some sort of validation from me concerning your references and scholarship. I’ll tell you what, if you want to send me the money to go and purchase those references, I’d be more than happy to review them, analyze them, synthesize the information and finally to offer an evaluation of them as authoritative sources. Or I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you a list of references that I’d like to have you read. You can invest in them and spend the six to eight months it’d take to do a thorough job of digging through them. I know it’s a lot more fun for Mormons to pull a quote here and there and offer an explanation from those apologetic giants at FAIR or FARMS, but that line of scholarship is meant to entertain the Mormon troops and not taken seriously by anyone else.
    There’s a game you Mormons play in an attempt to get Christians to spend a lot of time and effort chasing down empty rabbit trails. I can identify the tactics of the enemy when I see them as referenced in (Ephesians 6:12-18). Having been taken over by the deluding spirit of Mormonism, I doubt if you’re thought process is clear enough anyway to process the truth. But we can hope and pray that God will direct you out of Mormonism and into the light of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  29. falcon says:

    So instead of going out and mowing my sizeable farm lawn in intense heat and humidity, I’m sitting here tracking down a little information as to the Mormon position on the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost.
    In his book “Mormon Doctrine” Bruce McConkie writes on page 359, Holy Ghost: “A spirit man. He can only be at one place at a time…” Another source tells us that “The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God, which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity.
    This is not a description of the Holy Spirit/Ghost of the Bible. This is another one of Joseph Smith’s mucking about in a revelatory posture that may be quite impressive to people who don’t know anything, but when someone has a firm grasp of the Bible and enlightenment from the Holy Spirit of scripture, Smith’s amatuer attempts at being a prophet and teacher are exposed for just that, amateur.

  30. Andy Watson says:


    There is a distinction made between the LDS holy ghost and the LDS spirit of god. Mormonism’s holy ghost is a spirit man; a god; not omnipresent; a spirit child of heavenly father and mother. The LDS spirit of the Mormon god:

    “It is not the Holy Ghost who in person lighteth every man who is born into the world, but it is the light of Christ, the spirit of truth, which proceeds from the source of intelligence, which permeates all nature, which lighteth every man and fills the immensity of space. You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God’s intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe and gives to the spirits of men understanding, just as Job said…The Spirit of God which emanates from the Deity may be likened to electricity…which fills the earth and the air, and is everywhere present. It is the power of God” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 752-753)

    The LDS Bible Dictionary might use the words interchangeably, but the definitions are not the same. How can they be the same? Your holy ghost can only be in one place at one time. If missionaries begin their discussions asking for the spirit to be present, is this the holy ghost or the spirit emanating from your heavenly father in residence on a star near Kolob? If they are the same, then I guess your holy ghost/spirit of god has to decide which individual Mormon he wants to visit and give enlightenment. If two males are being confirmed after baptism in two different wards or receiving the LDS priesthood, how can the LDS holy ghost be at both places if he is not omnipresent? This has to be the spirit of your god because your holy ghost is a spirit man who has restrictions on how many places he can be. Somehow this makes sense to Mormons, but an omnipresent God does not.

    In Christianity, the Holy Spirit/Ghost are synonymous and the definitions are opposite of Mormonism (as expected)

  31. FIGJAM says:

    Shem: your denial of truth astounds me. Not only did Brigham say that Adam was God, here are his EXACT words: “HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.”

    Hmm. now, let’s see here shem, why wouldn’t brigham just have said, “he is one of many gods”, or “only the god of this planet”. you really shouldn’t post again because you are beating around the bush. this is a typical mormon tactic – propaganda and twisting of the truth.

    and, my lack of understanding, as you say, is not a lack. that is directly copied from your false prophet’s mouth. to repudiate such teaching is denying your faith. i ask you, if brigham’s true intent was one that you argue – why did spencer kimball even feel the need to speak out at conference: “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”

    obviously your interpretation holds no credibility as your own leadership knew exactly what young was teaching and later called it “false doctrine.” quit drinking the kool-aid shem. your ability to sweep this under the rug does not make any sense.

  32. Andy Watson says:


    You’re right, we’ve alread had a discussion about the Trinity many times on this blog and the latest was when I wrote my article post on here a few weeks ago. I patiently answered your questions and addressed your sources that you referenced. I also discussed with you in private emails any questions you asked. I told you that I would be happy to show you how the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God from Genesis to Revelation which makes up today what we in Christianity call the doctrine of the Trinity. Our emails ended and I didn’t hear from you further after I asked you to examine the pronouns “me” and “him” in Zechariah 12:10 (KJV).

    If the doctrine or the word “Trinity” brings forth nothing but disdain from the Mormons, then why does McConkie use the term? He states:

    “The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, he constitutes the third person in THE TRINITY, the godhead.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 753)

    Mormons are not alone in their hatred of the Trinity doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses hate it more than the Mormons. The past few Saturday’s I’ve been having them over at my house for discussions. The district leader showed up this past Saturday and camped out for 3.5 hours. He gave me a pamphlet that the Watchtower wrote on the subject of the Trinity. Here are some of their “authoritative” sources to give the JW’s support:

    La Bibbia Concordata
    Today’s English Version
    The New Jerusalem Bible
    An American Translation
    The Simple English Bible
    The Emphatic Diaglott
    La Bible du Centenaire
    Das Neue Testament
    Das Evangelium nach Johannes

    Ralph, you ever heard of these? I haven’t and I could care less. The same goes for Harper’s Bible Dictionary. Just because it has the word “Bible” in it doesn’t mean it’s the “real deal”. We have to use discernment and test all things (1 Thes 5:21). There is an abundance of Scripture that calls the Father – God, the Son – God, the Holy Ghost – God and there is only one God.

  33. Andy Watson says:

    Part 2

    Based on those Scriptural truths one is driven to conclude that within the nature/essence of the one Being [God] (Galatians 4:8) there are three persons. You may not fully understand it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. Don’t expect to “swallow” this teaching down like honey and expect it to just drop in the belly hole that easily. As I told you earlier, one cannot come to an understanding of this teaching if one has a wrong concept of who God is as a person. The Mormons believe that He is an exalted man that became a god through eternal progression after dying on an earth somewhere after receiving redemption from his savior. By the way, what was this savior’s name? If I were a Mormon, I’d put my money on him since that savior got your god his own planet near Kolob in which he and your heavenly mother engaged in celestial sexual relations and procreated you there, Ralph. This isn’t mocking. This is Mormon doctrine. Let’s not kid ourselves.

    Anyway, back to my JW friends. Our Mormon friends would be happy to know that they are in good company when it comes to their hatred of the Council of Nicea. The JW’s are as ignorant as the Mormons when it comes to knowing what took place there. I would simply ask you to read two sources from two early Christian church Fathers:

    1. Novatian, “The Trinity”, page 31, A.D. 235
    2. Tertullian, “Adversus Praxean”; The term “Trinity” was used. (He died in A.D. 220)

    Notice that this was 100 years before the Council of Nicea. Why did it take so long for this even to happen? First, Christianity was outlawed and mostly underground until the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313 freed Christianity from persecution. Would it be possible to hold LDS General Conference in China, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan or Iran? Yeah, probably not. Using your reasoning of 50 years, why did it take the LDS Church almost the same amount of time to make the Pearl of Great Price part of the Standard works?

  34. Andy Watson says:

    Part 3

    Back to the JW’s. The district leader said that Jesus was not Jehovah and not God when He was born. I asked him to look at Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus is called “The mighty God”. This is “El-Gibbor” in Hebrew. This is one of the titles of God in the Old Testament. The same is used in Isaiah 10:21. Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 says that when Christ was born He is Emmanuel – God with us. It also couldn’t be explained why and how Jesus could receive the same worship that is given to the Father throughout the Scriptures. This bothered him and he said he would be back this weekend “loaded up”.

    Why am I saying this, Ralph and any other Mormon reading this? The JW’s have believed what the Watchtower organization in Brooklyn, New York tells them. They are sincere. They are devout. They have a testimony. They are devoutly and sincerely wrong and have been mislead by a false organization who is ignorant of Bible teachings and early Christian church history.

    I’m ready and willing to join the Mormon Church if it can be demonstrated to me from the Bible that the Godhead is united only in purpose and unity, but three separate Gods – tritheism (plural). I told the JW leader that I’d become a JW if he could show me from the Bible that Jesus is Michael the Archangel and not God. They do agree with the Mormons that Jesus is “a god”. Mormons, why do you dislike the JW’s? Yall have a lot in common.

    Also, I’d like to know what the term “spirit of Joseph Smith” means? I read an article in the Mormon Times about a man who experienced this at an auction to buy Mormon collections.

    Andy (a.k.a. Berean)
    [email protected]

  35. shematwater says:


    You are the truly ignorant one, but in truth I cannot believe you ignorant, as the truth is so obviously in front of you, and yet you reject it at every turn.
    Brigham Young did say exactly what you quote, but that is not the extent of the quote, nor the entire doctrine that he taught.

    Adam is our Father, as he is the first Mortal man, and our physical bodies are all from him.
    Adam is our god, as he is the ruling authority under Christ for this Earth. As such he is the only god with which we will have direct dealings.

    This is all true, and is what was taught by the early leaders. By focusing on one sentance you can twist the truth, but by reading all the Brigham Young said the truth becomes obvious.
    I have given a full account of the doctrine taught by Brigham Young in the sermon you quote from. I have shown every point that he made, and I showed how they all tied together.
    You have taken one quote, removed it from the rest, and said that your interpretation of this is one line is what the entire sermon was about.

    As to Spencer W. Kimble, you are still not reading what you quote. Read again what he said. “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are ALLEGED to have been taught by some of the General authorities of past generations…” He was not saying that this is what Briham Young taught. He is telling us all to be on guard against the evil men who would have you believe this is what he taught. They allege this is the doctrine. What does allege mean? It means “TO ASSERT WITHOUT PROOF.” He is saying that those who teach this know not the truths of God, and thus give false doctrine, claiming authority of early leaders, but without understanding.
    What he said is perfectly true. This doctrine is alleged by those who have no proof, it is taught by those without understanding. As such it is false doctrine and is not of the Church.

  36. falcon says:

    What a deal. Adam is the Mormon god. Glad to see someone fess-up to it. Anyway you slice it, the Mormon god is a man who progressed to becoming a god just like countless millions before him. No wonder Joseph Smith and his followers down grade the Bible as an authorative source for doctrine, teaching and practice.
    This is full throttle stream of consciousness of the Mormon false prophets. This is why we insist that Mormons not call themselves Christians. This wacko stuff can’t be found anywhere in the OT, the NT, the writings of the Church Fathers or even the writings of the heretics. It can’t even be found in the BoM.
    As I’ve said countless times before, I don’t care if Mormons want to believe this out in left field stuff but don’t be so disingenuous as to say that’s it’s the original Gospel that was lost and now restored. If you Mormons want to entertain yourself with these tales along with the mighty deeds of Zelph, have at it.
    I’ll keep pounding away at the same theme: Mormons have a different Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and a different plan of salvation. The god you acknowledge emanated from the contact that the occultist Joseph Smith had with the spirit world. We have clearly drawn the distinction for you and you insist that based on a feeling you got when you prayed about it, that you have had the truth confirmed to you. By who, is the question? You know the answer and it isn’t the God of the Bible.

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