I read an article about repentance in the August 2009 Ensign magazine. “Mending Quilts, Mending Lives” illustrates the idea of repentance in a story about a damaged quilt.
While making a quilt, one of the quilters accidentally put a hole in the fabric when she carelessly handled a pair of scissors. The author wrote,
“We were all upset and knew the quilt was ruined. I remember my grandmother telling us not to worry because with iron-on tape and some careful ‘finagling’ she would be able to make the hole almost invisible. Sure enough, she fixed it, and although a patch now covered the unsightly hole, we had to look closely to find it” (page 16).
As the story unfolded, 37 years later the author of the Ensign article decided to use the quilt in a Young Women’s meeting to teach about life and repentance. When she looked for the patch that had repaired the quilt, she could not find it. She wrote,
“Then I was reminded of the words in Doctrine and Covenants 58:42: ‘Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.’ I knew what I needed to share with the young women… Just as I had been unable to find the patch in the quilt, so it is with our lives–if we truly repent, it can be as if a sin had not been committed and even the Lord will remember it no more” (page 17).
As I read this, it made me think a bit about the Mormon perspective and teaching on repentance. The words that follow the Doctrine and Covenants passage that the author quoted (D&C 58:43) explains what it is (in Mormonism) to “truly repent.”
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins–behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”
The LDS pamphlet “Repentance Brings Forgiveness” clarifies the Mormon position on this:
“Abandonment of Sin…The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again.”
Because, if sin is not permanently abandoned, the former sins return:
“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God” (Doctrine and Covenants 82:7).
It has been taught that,
“We also have to forsake the sin and never to repeat it not even in our minds. …In order to remain forgiven we must never commit the sin again” (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, pp. 35-36).
And,
“Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held
accountable for their former sins” (Gospel Principles, 1997, page 253).
So if the quilt in the Ensign story represented a real life, it would not have one patched tear in the fabric, but hundreds — maybe thousands. There would be patches upon patches upon patches. Indeed, there might be more patches than quilt!
And herein lies the problem with Mormonism’s impossible promises of forgiveness and cleansing. In real life, relying on what Mormonism says God requires for “true repentance,” it can never be. The frequency and depth of our sin is more than can ever be patched and repaired.
The Bible presents God’s forgiveness this way:
“He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:10-12).
God does not patch us up and send us on our way to see how well we’ll do. Instead, this is what He does for us:
“[I]f anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).
God does not merely repair our sin-torn souls. He reweaves the fabric of our lives, replacing the beat up, stained and battered cloth with a beautiful new quilt of His own design.
Sharon,
I will “Amen” this – “The frequency and depth of our sin is more than can ever be patched and repaired.” However, I do not think this goes near far enough (nor the quilt analogy in any form).
Salvation is not a bicycle that does not get purchased or a quilt that accidentally gets a whole in it. I think an attempted knife assault on the king of heaven is a better analogy. I like any analogue where God Himself is the problem
. . . or rather His wrath. The goats of the world are at war with God. They need to be made sheep or else all trying is in vain. The king of heaven loves mankind in this way – that He gave Himself to satisfy His own wrath so that some men be granted the gift of faith and stop fighting a losing war against the Lord of the universe.
Someone around here keeps mentioning the white horse inn. It/They did a program called “The Gospel According to the Heretic Pelagius”. You can listen to it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpdUGdqOLCw
It talks about man, God, the will, salvation, church history, and a whole bunch of other good stuff.
I would love an “Honest” answer from LDS on how we can really know we are saved if we are LDS.
Jesus said if we even think a thought we are guilty of doing it, I guess I am guilty of Murder.
Here is a real life example:
A child molester 3rd degree repeat offender just moved into my neighborhood about 1 month ago, right before I went on Vacation. He is less than 1 mile from a public school and a day care, and he is 1 block from me. The neighborhood was given a public notice from police and their was a town hall meeting to talk about this.
This guy targets girls from newborn to 11 years old. I have been very honest in telling non-believing family, friends and friends who are Christians. I have said over and over in a very public way, this guy touches my Daughter, NO ONE and I mean no one will ever find his body.
Sad as it is, I can make this happen, and I will be honest, these thoughts are thoughts of Murder and thats a sin, so everything I say or think this I commit murder in my heart, so I know I can be and am forgiven by My God. But how can this mormon god forgive me under all the bondage that comes with what is taught.
Another real life example is this, I have many friends in my Church who openly share their struggle of viewing porn with me or other brothers. This sin is not something I struggle with, but these brothers are married and both lust after other women, commit Idolatry and cheat on their wives.
These guys tell their wives and repent as needed but admit it is a huge struggle, so they themselves sin daily over and over.
So according to these statements:
According to these I cannot and am not really forgiven. rick b
Sharon,
I believe that this is another one of those things in Mormonism that trains the members to lie to themselves.
I’ve actually asked a few Mormons, and had them answer me “yes, if I died right now, I’d be worthy”.
Of course, this is a different notion for them than it is for me. If I died right now, I’d be covered by Jesus’ blood, regardless if I had any chance to “death bed repent” or not.
The Mormons who tell me they are worthy right now are having to first tell themselves that they are sinless and perfect as of the moment they are talking to me.
But I think each of them (unless they’ve been in this lying habit for a very long time) knows that they are lying even as they tell me that.
I remember doing the same as a Mormon… “I’m not that bad, I don’t murder people, I don’t sleep around, I don’t steal…”
But when Jesus “fulfilled” (fleshed out, filled up) the Law, He showed that it was ever so much more than just not killing and stealing.
So, what I was really doing in my head is just ignoring Him and what He did and what He said.
It’s a circle… first, one ignores that He IS your salvation, your cover, your Righteousness. Then, you have to ignore what He said about sin, in order to believe that somehow you are “good enough”.
Yuck.
I’d rather have Jesus. That way, I can be honest with myself, about the Bible, and with God and others.
setfree,
I know what you mean. I was with a friend (at this time I was not active but still considered myself very Mormon) when a Baptist minister came to his house to talk to him. We had just lost a close friend to an airplane crash, who was a Christian. My friend had no religion in his life at the time we suffered this loss. He felt like he owed it to our friend who died to find out about God. So this minister asked him, “If you died today, would you go to heaven?” And in my own head I thought, “What a stupid question. How presumptious to think that you are guaranteed a spot in heaven.” But now, looking back on that conversation I feel bad that I consciously shut off my brain to what he was trying to get across. That through the Atonement of Jesus Christ you can be guaranteed in your salvation. I have just recently started to reevaluate where I am spiritually and I am just discovering some of these things out for myself. And it’s awesome. I still have a long way to go but I know that the salvation the Mormon Church describes is literally impossible to attain. No one can completely forsake all sin and no one is perfect.
Joheshua,
I’m seriously so excited for you that you’ve made it out! Can I ask how long you’ve been out? If you’ve made it official? What was the clincher for you?
It sounds like by now you are already seeing how much freer your head feels for not having to defend or accommodate the garbage. lol, I’m seriously over here grinning for you. Yippee!
You’re absolutely right, and i wonder how many LDS on here think that they are perfect. Of course, the LDS list of commandments is much more than the “10”, and includes tithing, going to church, keeping the word of wisdom, etc etc.
At this point, I want to encourage you to hang in there. God can and will remove all the baggage, clean your slate, and make you a new creature. 🙂
setfree,
It depends on what you mean by “out”. I have been away from the church for several years, but have only recently started to re-evaluate my whole belief system and what I believe about God/Jesus Christ. As far as making it ‘official’, I have not had my name taken off the records yet. Not that I have a problem doing that, I just haven’t gotten to it yet.
I guess the clincher for me was when I came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. After that, everything fell away. I came to that conclusion through personal study and prayer. Once you realize that JS wasn’t a prophet, then the whole church and their claims to revelation/one true church just crumble.
For a time in my life I was a “dyed in the wool, true blue, through and through” Mormon. I served a mission, baptized a lot of people and served as Assistant to the President. I returned with honor, as they say. But I always had the little questions in my mind, but like I said I consciously pushed them away. The church made sense to me. But then, I didn’t know a lot about the “deep” doctrine or the real history of the church.
This issue of repentance and salvation hits home with me. Now I imagine that a lot of our Mormon friends here are rolling their eyes and thinking to themselves, “He left because he sinned and wasn’t strong enough”. But that’s just not true. To this day I follow most of the “rules” of Mormonism (except wearing garments among other things) because I “choose” to, not because I am told to. For example, I don’t drink, don’t smoke or dip, don’t really drink coffee, have been faithful to my wife from day one, etc.
But this idea of “true repentance” and the requirement to be essentially perfect just didn’t sit well with me. I know I am a sinner. I asked God for forgiveness of my sins every day. I recently related to Andy that the idea of Christian Salvation to me now is what I always imagined having your “Calling and Election Made Sure” would be like. But now I know that salvation is not some unattainable goal. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
Like I said, I am just starting out on my journey. But I have been corresponding with Andy and I have several friends that are helping me out. I have a long way to go, but now I finally feel like I am on the right path. And I have more joy and light in my life than I have ever had.
Thanks for the kind words.
It’s a real blessing to an ex-LDS now-Christian to see another coming to Jesus. I’d love to help you in anyway I can too, but I’m sure with friends like Andy, you’re already in helpful hands. (If, however, you’d like my email, I give permission for the moderators to give it to you)
The one thing I wanted to really highlight about what you just said is this:
Having salvation in Jesus is putting all your trust somewhere where it will actually be safe!
I know I’m saved because HE IS TRUSTWORTHY. Not because I am; though I thought myself “good”, I was never good enough, and I never will be. So I’m glad it’s not me that I’m depending on, but Him. He’s the surety. He’s the solid Rock.
I know, it’s way too cool. I have been where you are and I appreciate you bringing the newness of it back to memory. 🙂
I remember when I was an unlearned member of the church of joseph smith, I started reading “The miracle of forgiveness” and almost immediately I became seriously depressed. It made forgiveness seem so completely out of reach, and my attempts at repentance totally worthless. I felt like such an unworthy loser.
The words “after all YOU can do….after all YOU can do”, kept going through my mind. And even then, salvation was unsure, because to truly repent, you had to NEVER EVER do the sin again, and follow all the lds titanic rules (faithfully and totally fullfill all the duties of your “calling” with no questions asked, tithe or you have no temple recommend, attend the temple regularly, no coffee, no tea, no budweisers 🙁
show up for all the mandatory service projects
etcetera, etcetera, blah…blah…blah.
I remember thinking “Gee. Those apostles are such wonderful men! They must be so perfect to be our leaders. I could never be like them.”
I remember hearing about how even some of the general authorities (?) had to get whats called a “second annointing” in a special room in the SL temple to be assured of salvation. I remember thinking “Wow. I wish I could get a second annointing”
But then one beautiful day, I learned about following Jesus Christ, instead of following all the lds titanic’s rules.
Maybe someday, I might be able to share with you the prayer I prayed (and more importantly the answer I received) when I asked my Heavenly Father if the lds church really truly was the “one and only true church”.
Blessings and love to all in Christ Jesus’ name.
The clincher for me was realizing it was impossible. Logically, spiritually, physically, mentally impossible.
Thanks be to the Almighty God for saving a wretched sinner like me…..and making it not only POSSIBLE, but a reality.
“and making it not only POSSIBLE, but a reality”
What a great succinct way to put it!
Thanks, Aaron. Glory to God….
and also, as an off-topic note, thanks (to all the writers) for what you do here. I’ve sent countless mormons and non-mormons your way, and I have learned so much. When I first discovered your site, the reason I kept coming back was the funny name. But as I learned more and more, it became a source of knowledge–to go back to the Bible and do as the Bereans….to test it for myself. I am grateful to God–for this ministry and others which lead people to the Truth. He is THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIGHT. There is no other way. None.
Woohoo! Wow, what a great day out here! Thanks for your testimony FINALLYfree2007! :O
FinallyFree2007
Free
Joheshua’
It’s a real blessing to hear your stories.
You’ve found out that there’s a vast
difference between the religion of Joseph
Smith and a relationship with Jesus Christ !
Congratulations !
Hey everybody!
I just noticed something.
Those who have come out of Mormonism are rejoicing with shouts of freedom… this is especially noticeable today, as we have 3 declaring freedom right in their name: setfree, Free, and Finallyfree2007.
It was prophesied in Isaiah 42:7 that Jesus would be coming to “bring out the prisoners from the prison”. (Hallelujah, Praise Jesus’ Name!)
Ironically, this is a verse Mormonism points to to validate/excuse their temple work for the dead.
Ugh.
Those of us who have been set free by Jesus know exactly who the prisoners are, having been in prison before He got us out.
Joseph Smith taking yet another verse that was talking about Jesus, and changing it to talk about himself, literally makes me want to puke.
Its topics like these that get to the heart of people I think. Notice how quiet the LDS posters are? I didn’t see one in the past 16 comments.
I think its because they know how high a bar their leaders have set for them and its disheartening. Not that setting a high moral bar is a bad thing, but it’s not something that has anything to do with salvation. Jesus already cleared the bar for us. The race is finished.
This topic is good because it’s focused on the heart and on Jesus Christ, not focused on how big a liar Joseph Smith may have been or some of the other LDS doctrine.
You really start to witness the power of God when you see exactly how badly you need Jesus. I need His grace every day.
Free,
I thought the much of the same thing from reading “miracle of forgiveness’. My parents kept a copy in the bookshelf near the front door for easy access, along with “mormon doctrine”, a triple combination, and perhaps some recent copies of ensign etc…
Its so amazing to me how much of this stuff looks so superficially ‘uplifting’, but when closely examined its not. My self esteem suffered for all of time I associated with the LDS faith, and for a time after I stopped attending.
I do remember being very envious of non-LDS chrisitians who didn’t have to ‘work’ at being saved. But of course I wasn’t allowed to believe in such things because it was false christianity. I often had extreme anxiety and a strong neurosis over worrying if I would ever ‘endure to the end’, thinking about the slightest sin which might cause me to fail. When I expressed these concerns most members just said you don’t have the holy ghost, or don’t really believe, these keep you from sinning.
I have to be honest, whatever you guys are saying, I really have a difficult time seeing any other ‘jesus’. I attended other church services of various churches, and sure they were slightly different, but that essential ‘churchiness’ is still there.
I also can sense that these non-lds christians had there own hang ups and neurosis instilled from their particular brand of faith. Televangelist, and TV ministries also have the same basic feel, maybe worse.
Someone had asked me about a sense of bitterness he/she could pick up on. How could I NOT be bitter? I was raised with all that LDS ‘crap’, I was kept from some very important developemental experiences due to this crap. For example, my first job I had was bagging groceries. Man it was hard work, and the cashier was just SOOO abusive. It lasted just ONE DAY, and you know why? My mother told me that ALL my earnings would go to my missionary fund. I would have been willing to put with the job…if I could have done what I wanted.
wow. Enki, it was really nice to “hear” from you. I’m glad to know a little about you. Thanks for that.
I hope you keep talking. Regardless of our tempers, I believe the majority of believers here truly care about you and the other LDS, ex or non or whatever, and are quite literally keeping you in their prayers.
I’ll be one…
Continued…
For some personal reasons I ended up not going on my mission in the end. My parents mandated that if I wasn’t going I had to get a job or go to school, I wasn’t staying home and doing nothing. I wasn’t given much time to think about it, maybe a few days.(at least this is how I remember it) So I went to school, not knowing what I wanted to do, changing majors frequently, and pretty much still thinking about the missionary duty I was supposed to perform, and hoping that I could do that after all. This whole missionary thing was so strongly instilled that I didn’t have the slightest idea about anything else. I wasn’t allowed to plan or think of anything else.
I finished school with a degree that I didn’t research, and wasn’t enthused about. Its not an in demand job, and I spent all that money on something which I am not sure I really want. Employers just scratch their heads wondering why aren’t I pursuing what I studied…well….
There is more. There were a few very, very major psychologically traumatic events in my life. I don’t feel comfortable going into them in detail. But they ALL involve someone in the LDS faith, a jew, a christian or muslim. The worst were by far however were from the mormons and the jews. There is an interesting theory about why this is, but that is perhaps not an appropriate topic for this board.
Enki,
The stuff you are saying is reminding me of my former Mormonism… especially the stuff about college. For me, though, the objective was always temple marriage and happily ever after, the perfect fairytale life of a good Mormon kid.
I’d add to that (sorry to steal from your show, I guess it’s easier for me to express understanding this way) that there was a lot of trauma between me and my upbringing that drove me away from family and acquaintances for many years, as I just wanted to be away from all of the hyper-expectations.
One thing I for sure never wanted to do was to get any CLOSER to God… all that meant to me was more rules, more demands, more judgment, more disapproval…
I hope you are able to find here, or elsewhere close by, an actual Christian church, or an actual Christian friend, in whom you can see the true reflection of our beautiful LORD and Savior, Jesus Christ. His way is impossible, and amazingly easy. I know that sounds weird, but He’s so amazing when you let Him into your life, that you’ll never not know that you finally found Him.
If there’s anything I can do for you, let me know. In the meantime, like I said before, I’ll just talk to God about you. Not like He’s not already got His Hand out, working out events to bring you close to Him.
In love,
setfree
Enki, setfree, boo freaking hoo. You left the church, get over it and move on with your lives. No one cares.
I care.
Jason Rae,
That is not a Christ-like sentiment that you are expressing – and it sure is not appropriate for a representative of the LDS church (or any other). Regardless of which church/religion/non-religion someone belongs to Jesus always cares and is holding out His hand beckoning them to come to Him. Even those who have left the true church are still precious to Him – remember the lost sheep Jesus talked about?
I do care for Enki and setfree, I care about the fact they have left what I consider the true way to God. but I also care/happy that setfree has found happiness at the moment in a faith that keeps her close to Jesus and I care/worry that Enki seems to be lost at the moment from what I understand from his comments – I want Enki to find happiness.
As far as the main topic, Jeffrey B, I believe that most LDS are just yawning and thinking yes OK that is basically what our faith says, but slightly exaggerated – and no one here will listen to our explanation because this is what the quotes say, so why bother.
Ralph, Ok I take back what I said for Enki. Was out of line. But not for setfree. He wears his “I left the church” badge on his sleeve way too much. For his own sanity he needs to move on and just let it go and focus on his new life and be happy.
Enki – Thanks so much for sharing so openly and vulnerably. and you others too! Oh how sweet it would have been to have this interchange face-to – face. Families are the crucible of learning and growth, and unfortunately way too often, a result of our fallen nature, they become the hurting places they do. And, if left untreated, their results last for eternity, regardless of whether you believe families are forever or not. Too many well meaning but wounded Christian families produce the same fruit and worse than yours. It is the same in all religious groups. I understand why you look at us ECs with skepticism. I am a therapist, and I have worked with Christian, Mormon, and non-believing families for 25 years – specializing in pastors and missionaries. (As well as having my own for 34 years (man, I am old..). ) I have seen so much garbage, I am amazed I did not walk away from my faith. It was so hard to work with some of them, and yet, when it worked, it was wonderful, especially when they let Jesus come back or come in. It seems, Enki, that you have been making good progress, and I encourage you on this journey.
I think many of us have been silent, because we have been regaling in wonder at you three and your dialogue. It has been a privilege to listen in. Go in Grace.
What about you, Jason? What wounds do you carry that make you feel like yelling at and about God the way you do? I’m sure there is a concern and care going on for you out here as well…
This reminded me of 1 John 1:8, 10 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” . . .” 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”. As such mormonism is forced to fight against scripture on this subject.
But within Christianity we are not left hanging there with that impossible standard for humans – ” 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” There are no qualifiers from God as there is in mormonism (after all we can do), but an instant and unconditional promise of God that our sins will be forgiven and we will be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness.
This topic is great. And I think Ralph’s reason for Mormon’s silence here is probably accurate. And if I understand him right, Sharon’s got it pretty right, even if he thinks its overblown.
However, I am not sure that a topic can be more important than this. Understanding that we have all of our sins forgiven when we are made a new person is one of the biggest aspects of our faith, whereas Mormons cannot accept that it is really that simple and feel they must work.
I think the testimony of those Mormons who have left the church (what wonderful stories!) shows that beneath the rosy veneer of Mormon faith is a guilt driven program where people feel compelled to work for their faith.
Jason’s outburst that he doesn’t care is perhaps indicative of a stereotypical Mormon response: you didn’t have enough faith, so be gone with you. Fortunately, Ralph showed compassion and sorrow, but Jason’s sentiment is something that you hear about elsewhere: if you leave the church, or show no interest in being a member of the church, you are shunned.
This post though, was great, and the testimonies beared have been wonderful to see, even Enki’s as he battles through. I will pray for them, and for those who have not broke through and who are teetering on the brink.
Blessings.
Jason, I dont see you giving any answers here about how you can be saved, I suspect you cannot, but I say to you, Your a false prophet leading people to hell and thats why you cannot.
I have spoken to countless MM’s, I tell them the same thing and not one has yet disagreed and given me info from the BoM as to why I am wrong.
I tell them, why would I want to be an LDS member, live under all the bondage and works you must do, when if you were to die today you would end up in the 2 heaven since you do not meet the requirements for entering the 3rd heaven.
Yet if I died today, I would end up in the first and be prayed into the 2nd, as of yet not one MM has disagreed. Rick b
I think every LDS out there ought to be aware of this:
“When you have repented, and are baptized and confirmed by one with the priesthood authority given by God, you receive a remission of your sins ( Acts 2:38). You make a covenant, or promise, with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, PROVIDED you keep your covenants”
In other words: IF you keep the commandments (and the other covenants besides the baptism one), Jesus will forgive you and let you return to live with Him.
This quote came from here: http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
This website is the “Official Web site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ”
By the way, you can find a list of LDS commandments here:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/the-commandments
Hello,
I have followed this site ever since my daughter-in-law Amanda B mentioned it to me. This is my first time to comment.
Sometimes the tone of the comments are a little harsh. I hope that I won’t contribute to the problem.
In Matt. 5:48 we are told, “To be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.” Gods standard is perfection, nothing less. There has only been one to fulfill that high standard and that is Jesus Christ. If I understand Heb. 10:10-18 correctly “…we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once forall.
This, “one time offering perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” God stated that “their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” As I see it we can follow Gods plan through the sacrifice of His Son and be perfected now. Or we can seek to fulfill this by our own works of obedience which will fall so very short of Gods standard.
“be perfect”
I remember what it was like to carry that heavy burden of sin and guilt. I also remember when I bowed my heart, my head and my knees and threw myself upon Gods mercy. Asking him to forgive my sin, knowing he died and rose again to pay for them. I asked him to be my Lord and Savior. The words that come to mind are peace,forgiveness,acceptance, cleansing from the burden and guilt of sin. Knowing I am accepted because of Christ righteousness. (John 6:47)Since that day my desire has been to please and glorify him.
Why would anyone want to carry that burden of sin and guilt around? Trying to be perfect and failing so miserably. That is not good news.
Richard
God is relational, and we must look at sin as relational. The total Fall of Man is recorded in Genesis 3 and 4: broken relationship with God and broken relationship with each other. If we understand that the first four commandments deal with our relationship with God and the other six with our relationship with people, it is clear to understand why Jesus commanded us to love God and neighbor as self. John Wesley taught Christian Perfection as being perfect in love and motives–it has nothing to do with perfect performance, because we are humans and are prone to sin. Righteousness is imparted to us through Jesus Christ. Our hearts can be perfectly filled with love for God and others only if we abide in Jesus; only then can we demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit, which is linked to love. When Jesus talks about being holy and perfect as God is, He is talking about the restoration of the image of God with which we were originally created. The image of God is His character and not His form. It can be said that the fruit of the Spirit reflects God’s perfect character, and this is what it means to be Christ-like. This sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, and it is effected as we respond to God’s grace in our lives. Being made perfect and holy is God’s work to complete. Matthew 5:3-6 reveal to us how the process works. A man must realize his utter helplessness and trust totally in God. He must mourn over his sinfulness and sins. He must relinquish self-control for Spirit-control. When this inner work happens, he will hunger and thirst for righteousness. The inner work is responding to the work of the Holy Spirit as He convicts us of our sin. The fruit is the desire for righteousness. The result is living a Spirit-empowered life where a man becomes perfect in love–which is how God is perfect. When love reigns in our heart as opposed to sin, then we have realized Christian Perfection.
Peace and Grace!
Rblandjr,
Are you LDS or not? I know Amanda was and am guessing she still is. Rick b
Michael P, I did not say I didn’t care about Enki and setfree as people – I said I did not care that they left the church. Big difference. And I don’t. People leave the church every day for a variety of reasons.
I applaud setfree in his new faith and I encourage him to share more often about his God as detailed on this board.
It’s just that every post is about how he left the church like it’s some big deal and it’s not. That’s all.
Rick B, your fellow Ev on this board described God in this way:
” I don’t know what God looks like, and won’t pretend to guess. If he’s a hideuous 8 headed creature with 70 eyes and spider like legs, does that make him less of a God? I don’t think so, and nor should you. – Michael P. ”
Do you Rick B agree with the above statement? Are you cool spending eternity with the creature from the black lagoon?
Wow, Jason, you really are trying to get some mileage out of that quote. Have at it. I think the comment may be outrageous, but the point is that God is God, and is so far beyond our understanding what his fullness looks like, and his goodness is far beyond what we will ever know on earth, I, personally, could care less what he looks like, even if he looks lke as I described above. As long as he is God, he is worthy of my praise, and he has been and will be God from and through eternity.
As to your not caring that someone left your church, what do you care about? Do you rejoice when someone joins? Or is that nothing as well. Is suspect you do like it when folks join your family, but it is curious that you could care less that they leave. Maybe you don’t care that they join, but even that is curious, too.
Jason,
What another christian said is beside the point. The point is, you teach a false gospel that leads people to hell and puts such heavy bondage upon them they cannot live up to it. You claim to be a TBM yet avoid questions like the plague. If and when you try and answer them, if they are nothing more than a Genesis 1:2 reply, with out form or void, then you seem to disappear.
Unlike most christian posters here, I was nicknamed the hammer for a reason. I wont run away, and if I cannot answer a question I have no problem saying so, also I care about everyone here to the point that I would rather speak the truth and tell people who are wolves and false prophets that they are.
I’m not one of these wimpy cry baby new pr old believers who never mention, hell, eternal damnation, sin or anything else, Jesus spoke more about hell than He did heaven. Peter, Paul, Jude and others spoke the truth and so will I. Your a wolf and the wolves in sheeps clothing have to kill the sheep in order to get the sheeps clothing.
The Bible is clear, their are children of God, and children of the devil, both LDS and christian seem to avoid this fact, not me, you child of the devil. Rick b
Rick, aka hammerhead, it’s not beside the point. A fellow ev has posted clear evangelical Christian doctrine on the nature of God.
Do you embrace the doctrine or do you denounce it as heresy? Is this too difficult for you to answer Rick? Just type a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ and then I allow you to post whatever else you want.
Jason, Like my reply or not I do not care.
First off unlike the LDS prophets who speak for the entire LDS church, Posters on here cannot speak for me. Then He came and replied to you and you ignored his reply.
Then if your going to play games and say Rick answer me, then lets look at it this way, Sharon posted a topic, your avoiding her post, She asked First. Then I asked a question, your Avoiding me I was second, then you asked 3rd.
So if you want to play games then you need to answer Sharon and me before I answer you, I know you wont like that, but guess what, In the words of a poster named Jason, Boo freaking hoo. Rick b
Sharon you said:
“God does not merely repair our sin-torn souls. He reweaves the fabric of our lives, replacing the beat up, stained and battered cloth with a beautiful new quilt of His own design.”
So as per the link below, if Christ came back momentarily to visit the Utah County Jail and upon seeing Him (Christ) David Ragsdale in the deepest most defining moment of his life and in all sincerity accepted Christ as his Savior and became saved in very deed at that moment – would Christ let him out of prison?
If your theory of forgiveness/salvation is correct, David Ragsdale would be free, clear and 100% innocent of ALL sin the moment he accepted Christ in prison. He would no longer be responsible for the death of his wife – he would be sinless and headed for heaven, is that correct?
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=2928667
So Christ is here momentarily standing right next to the saved Ragsdale, would He break him out of prison or would He require that Ragsdale continue to pay the penalty for his sin?
~
Rick, salvation is an ongoing process of learning and gaining knowledge and growing in the gospel. One must accept Christ, be baptized in His name and work out his salvation with blood, sweat and tears, fear and trembling etc etc. I wholly and completely reject the nod of the head towards the fascist alien thug in the sky salvation experience. If you don’t give the alien his recognition it will personally cast you into the Nazi style oven and turn on the gas.
~
I’ve answered both questions. Now, do you embrace the evangelical Christian doctrine of the nature of God that Michael P. proclaimed or do you denounce it as heresy?
Rick B,
I am definitly not Lds. Studied for the ministry at a Baptist University in Chattanooga. I teach in a Public school and am active in my local church.
Amanda is still LDS.
This gives me a chance to minister to lds who need to embrace Christ and his righteousness instead of trying to establish their own through works. We are perfect in Christ, yet we are to grow in grace by the power of his Holy Spirit taking in his word and being transformed from glory to glory. 2 Cor. 3:18
Richard
Let me work backwards,
Rblandjr, I was thinking you were not LDS, But since LDS want to be called Christian and use are terms I was not 100 percent sure.
Jason, Like I said, Other Believers cannot speak for me, If an LDS “prophet” Speaks he pretty much speaks for god and the church. Now when you were pointing out what Michael said about God, Michael was very clear in saying,
Michael Did not say this was doctrine, Michael did not say I know for a fact this is God, Michael said, I DON’T KNOW.
So Jason, How can you try and say I must call Michael a heretic or a speaker of Gospel Truth based off the fact He clearly said I DON’T KNOW?
I do know what the Bible says. Moses could not see God lest he die. Paul has said no eye has seen, Jesus said if you have seen the father you have seen me. So I am sure God the father does not look like Michael said, but then again Michael was clear, no matter what God looks like, God is God. Rick b
Jason said about salvation:
Jason, if what you said is true, then How could the apostle Paul be so clueless? Paul told the Jailer, Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Paul said, I did not come to baptize, and I forgot how many I baptized. This does not even come close to what LDS believe. Salvation as the Bible speaks of is easy as believe, Salvation according to LDS is bondage and then some.
Also you seem to deny eternal damnation as the Bible teaches. If you want to deny eternal damnation, then how can you get past everything Jesus, Peter, Paul, Jude and others said about it. Also if it is not real then why did these guys speak with great detail about it?
Lastly, their is Eternal damnation even in LDS beliefe, Yes it’s only for a rare few, but does exist. Rick b
Rick, The doctrine that he did state is that God very well could be a hideous 8 headed creature with 70 eye balls. Your evangelical Christian theology leaves the door open for God to be such.
So if I understand your theology God very well could be the creature from the black lagoon and your salvation may be simply that you float around in the brackish water with it for eternity. Is this really the kind of jack-in-box salvation you guys want to promote to the world?
In case you aren’t aware Rick this nonsense died on April 6 1820 and via some simple math we can see that the false God has been dead for 189 years. Alien arms chopped off. Eye balls whacked one by one. Obliterated. There’s nothing but a bloody carcass left, why do you insist on resurrecting it?
Maybe Rick you can answer the question I posed to Sharon? Bring out that hammer of yours.
In evangelical theology the fascist non-human species God that can’t even reproduce its own kind for FEAR that there (gasp!) would be ANOTHER God is the one personally casting 14 year old girls in the fire if they don’t acknowledge him as supreme ruler.
He personally burns them alive. Your God personally does it. There is essentially no difference from the fascist Nazis on earth and the evangelical God in heaven. Do you think maybe when the alien brings a young virgin 14 year old girl to the fire pits he and Heinrich Himmler have a quick high five? On the back side. Down low. Too slow! I can just see those two yuckin it up since they both love the screaming and the torture.
In LDS theology there is eternal damnation and hell but people put themselves there. A big part of salvation is to get people to live in such a way, via faith and works, that they can be prepared for and participate in a heavenly society.
Sieg Heil
Jason,
My God does not toss people into Hell, I really wish you would read the Bible, then I would not need to spoon feed you the truth.
God clearly said, Hell was created for the devil and his angles, It was not and has never been Gods plan for man to go their, Man goes their for rejecting God.
If man chooses to claim God is not real or man claims he wants no part with God then they end up choosing to go their by their own Choice.
Jason, You said The Doctrine he “Michael stated”, Can you show me where Michael said, this is Doctrine. Funny how He never said that, yet you claim he did, yet I can show you where BY your Prophet/president said, Adam God IS DOCTRINE that OUR SALVATION hangs upon, yet you will beat around the bush and put words in BY’s mouth and claim He really did not mean that or say that. Your a funny guy.
Jason, I re-read your question to Sharon, Let me use my spoon and feed you some more, Sigh, You better read your Bible better.
If Jesus came back to the prison like you said and that guy really asked for forgivness he would be forgiven his sin, He will enter into heaven. Here is the deal, Just because Jesus forgives us our sin does not mean we still do not pay the penalty for our consequences. In the OT God said, we are to pay with our lives if we take another persons life.
Their is grace in the OT, Read Jonah, God rebuked Jonah because Jonah knew God would forgive the people if they repented, yet Jonah wanted them Killed. God showed grace to them, Yet God punished people just the same.
We read Paul saying if we believe in Jesus we will be saved, yet Paul Never said, set everyone free from Jail who repents. LDS teach no death bed repentance or no Murders can repent, Yet the Bible does not teach this, How can you go send out MM’s to jail’s and try to give a gospel message if your either giving them false hope, or not giving them honest truth saying, Sorry, you cannot repent because you cannot be forgiven.
Rick b
Jason Rae,
“Enki, setfree, boo freaking hoo. You left the church, get over it and move on with your lives. No one cares.”
That made me laugh. Yes indeed its time to move on.
“the fascist non-human species God” not a bad description of ‘jesus’, be it the mormon jesus or otherwise.
“In LDS theology there is eternal damnation and hell but people put themselves there.”
This is not entirely true.
D&C 19: 7, 11
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
• • •
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
LDS church services generally don’t do hell-fire sermons, and generally missionary discussions don’t start with that either. I might be tempted to aplaud the LDS faith for de emphasizing this, however its actually to help keep the hell and damnation threat abusive.
D&C 121: 43
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;”
The context of the passage is for priesthood authorities, but this reproving can happen between members, and from parents to children. I experienced some reproval from my mother at a very vulnerable time in my youth. My mother was NOT aware that she was being very, very abusive. It almost cost me my life. She didn’t hesitate to use the word “hell”, and she almost sent me there.(to the grave)
Jason Rae wrote “In LDS theology…”
Jason,
LDS ‘theology’ does not even exist. Why promote it?
Maybe we can take this up on a different thread, but I’d like to suggest an overhaul of your articles of faith (The Wentworth Letter). The problem is that they are clearly misleading, particularly Number 8, which implies that LDS draw their beliefs from the Bible. This is plainly the reverse of what actually happens.
I had thought of suggesting something that started with “We believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet…”, but that doesn’t work because you ignore what he said, did, and told you what to do.
So, I ended up with “I believe in myself…”, which actually works in all respects, especially your attitude to forgiveness.
As for Michael P’s comment, I think its funny in two respects; firstly, he was using absurdity to illustrate a point; secondly, because you won’t let it go. No, I don’t think God is the creature from the black lagoon, but the reason I believe it is because He has told us what He’s like through the Bible.
I know you don’t accept that, but you know better don’t you (“I believe in myself…”), and heaven help anyone who might challenge your feelings of utter self-affirmation by suggesting that the universe does not actually revolve around you.
There’s a story in the Bible for you. Its the parable of the Wise King, who, seeing that he could not overcome his adversary, sued for peace (Luke 14:31-32). You will not overcome the Christ of God, Jason. Take some advice and sue for peace before He crushes you in the morning.
You think you are ‘god’, but you will die like a man (Psalm 82:6-7). What good will your self-affirmation be on that day?
I’ll leave you with a question about forgiveness, Jason, and I’ll see how you answer it. What did the paralyzed man do to get forgiveness in Mark 2:1-12?
Setfree,
Its ok, really your not stealing anything, its not my show. Everyone who posts here makes a contribution. I sincerly believe that everyone here is trying to better understand their existance,their belief and perhaps share something. In my case, finally express some past hurts, which is also a type of sharing, but it might not always be pleasant.But I will have to admit its very healing for me. Even comments which don’t sound supportive intially end up being so!