When I was very young, I became ill. The medicine my mother was going to administer was of the worst kind, in my mind, and there was no way I was going to obediently take it. So, I quickly hid in a closet, closed my eyes, bowed my head, and said “Dear Heavenly Father, please give me a magic wand, so that I can make myself better”.
That was a pretty silly prayer to expect God would answer, I doubt many would argue. And yet, how many of us have been pretty close?
We don’t know an answer to a test question: God, is it B, D, or E?
We are stuck in traffic: God, please get these people off the road.
We are lonely: God please send me a soul mate.
We are tired: God, please get my boss to let me go home.
We want a nice car: God, please get me a raise.
Etc.
How many of us have ever thought, if only I were God?
Think of the possibilities.
You could think the thought, and make the neighbor’s dog stop barking.
You could wiggle your finger, and your son’s tattoo would be gone.
You could simply want some breakfast, and it would appear, bedside.
What would you get for yourself, if you were a god? How about:
A mansion with swimming pool and tennis courts and servants?
An intergalactic Lamborghini?
The best-looking, most fun, sexiest lover to be had (or many of them)?
Or, thinking on a larger scale, would you, if you were a god:
Establish world peace?
Abolish diseases? Flies? Weeds?
Get rid of crime, poverty, societal problems of every kind?
(How noble of you. J)
What do you think you would do with your “power” if you were a god? Take a minute, think it over.
Ok. Here are some other questions pertaining to godhood that you may not so readily ask yourself:
Would I have to be “perfect”? What would that mean? Could I be angry? Jealous? Could I prefer something over another thing? Could I love? Hate? Be excited? Have to not get excited?
What would my responsibilities be? Would I have to answer to anyone?
Who would I be responsible to/for? Would I have to spend godhood the way God is? Would I have to have spirit children? Would I have to answer my children’s prayers night and day, day and night, for thousands of years?
Will I allow free agency for my spirit children? Will I have to? If so, what will I do about the ones who hate me? Who sacrifice my other children to idol gods? Who want to follow other gods in the universe besides me? What will I do with the ones who rape, murder, torture, defile my other children? Will I create a hell for them? Will I destroy them?
What if I just don’t allow free agency? Is there any thing wrong with that?
What if I don’t want all that responsibility? Will I have to have it, or can I say “no”, that I’d rather just populate my world with cool plants and animals? Will that make me a lesser god?
What if I get tired of being a god? Can I opt out? Can I give my world over to a different god to run for me? Can I just assume that once I am in heaven, I will always want to be a god, and for eternity, I will never change my mind? Never get tired and want to do something else? Will I be eternally content? Happy with being a god?
It may be easy to dismiss any or all of these kinds of questions with a “well, we’ll know later”. Easy for us to dismiss what “god” means, by just saying “well, he was like us, so, whatever!”
The prayer I offered up for a magic wand revealed my childlike understanding of God and how miracles happen. I am older now, and I have learned much more about “reality”. And yet, there is so much that I don’t know and may never understand.
I do believe, however, that if we were created by God, then there is an absolute truth about God, about what it means to be a god, and about whether or not godhood is possible for anyone besides God.
Consider the possibility that there is a One, a Power, a Knowledge, a Wisdom, a Presence that is so far above everything else as to be The Absolute. It knows so much more than me, that I could spend forever just learning about it and from it. It is so much more loving than I am, that I could spend forever being happy just being close to it. It has so much more than I do, that for eternity, I will never lack for provision, work, play, rest, enjoyment, growth, etc. It is infinitely personal and relational and intimate. He is so complete in himself that I will never ultimately need anything else but Him.
The Holy Bible suggests that God is like this.
It says God is everywhere; there is no place where He is not.
It says God is eternal; there was never a time when He was not God.
He has ALL of the power; He is absolutely Sovereign.
He is the source of everything; there is nothing that can exist without Him.
The Holy Bible’s description of God eliminates the possibility of there being more than one of them. How could there be, with attributes like these?
On this forum there are basically two God views up for grabs. Neither can explain where God came from. Neither can explain how or why He became God.
But personally, the Biblical view gives me peace I never had when I subscribed to the other view. It takes the illusion of control away from me. It absolves me from making myself my own hero. I have such freedom of mind and soul, knowing that God created me, that He worked/is working out my salvation, and that He will be my heaven when this life is over. Given what He has created and surrounded me with so far, I’m extremely excited to find out what He has planned!
In the movie “Miller’s Crossing” a mob leader displaces another mob leader who’s running the town. Soon it becomes obvious that the job isn’t what he thought it would be and that he is in way over his head. He exclaims, “This being in charge…..I don’t know.” The reality of being the kingpin didn’t match his expectations as he hadn’t really considered the consequences of being in charge.
Our minigods to be in the SLC Mormon denomination are on an ego trip where being god will be for them, in the words of 60s pop singer Leslie Gore, “sunshine, lollipops and rainbows”.
The Mormon minigods emit a stench in the spirit world that smells like perfume to Satan knowing that he has seduced some foolish men into the Luciferian cult of god wannabes. And he does it in a way that makes it all look so spiritual and beautiful; the angel of darkness disguising himself as light. What fools these men are.
As with other things Mormon, at least the Community of Christ and Temple Lot denominations of Mormonism figured out this part of the occult seeking Smith’s ruse and rejected any thought of progressing to godhood and the blasphemy that God was once a man. Blinded by the spiritual delusion they have accepted, they lead their entire families into eternal destruction. Terrible way to think about “forever families”, isn’t it?
I’ve never had a christian explain the verse that describes us as “co-heirs” with Christ. Falcon, or Mike P, or any of the evangelicals… what significance does that have? What does that mean to you?
I’ve had this explained to me in so many different ways when I was a “biblical/traditional/conservative/baptist Christian”, and I’d like to know what you all think.
Also, do you call God “Father”?
The trinity plays a big part in this, because we believe that Christ is our brother, the first born… while God is our father. Not the same person. (we can talk bible, nicean creed, and pre-nicean if you’d like… the Trinity is a false doctrine.) Christ is not my God/Father… he is my Savior and Redeemer. And he will inherit all that the Father has. And I have the ability born within me to be a co-heir with him… and inherit all that the father has.
A wonderful way to think about “forever families”, isn’t it.
Well, this is what you get when god is a merely a title/office and not a being. I doubt that the Almighty is bothered by all these questions and responsibilities, but that is why He is all mighty.
I think for many Mormons these questions are not really entertained because they perceive the universe in a certain way. For some (many) Mormons there is a spiritual program that all gods and gods in embryo must follow. If the plan is not followed then progression stops. So, even God is in someways limited in what he can or would do. You and I would be too as many of things you mentioned would not be in keeping with the “eternal principles” that our heavenly father followed/follows.
I remember stepping in some dog feces in Manti around pageant time. I remember remarking to someone who was with me, “Sure I will be become a god.” Personally, the idea of being a spiritual grandpa is more appealing. Divine power with a quarter of the responsibility. “Grandpa’s the name, spoilin’s the game.”
A very interesting scenario Setfree, but this is reality and not some screenplay. Here is what the difference is as I perceive it.
Evangelicals, or Creedal Christians, eternity of singing songs, praising God, and being taken care of like most welfare states do. No responsibilities forever, and that is a loooooooooog time, doing nothing that would put you in control of your own progression, in fact there would be no progression except deciding what cloud you would pick for that particular time and space.
Interesting concept, nothing to do but sit, sing and praise.
LDS, wow, no limit to what, how and where we would be going in time and space. Forever Families, what a concept, having Great, great grandfather, and Great Great Grand-kids planing new adventures every day. Responsibilities, hmmm, what a concept, being in charge of planing, organizing, and creating, sound like fun to me. Oh well, each to his own Theories, but for me, I believe it’s more then theories, I actually, oh my gosh, have a testimony that Eternity is a whole lot more then picking out what cloud to reside on.
Question?
How can LDS say Families are forever if according to LDS we are all Gods Children, yet LDS teach 3 different heavens and outer darkness. So you have a family, Examples even on this board, we have Ex-lds with members who are still LDS.
So they will not all end up in the same heaven, These family’s will be broken into the 3 heavens and some Ex-LDS might even end up in outer darkness, How that being together forever?
Another question, How can we all be God children if Jesus said, you are of YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL. Did God the father and the Devil share the same with, So we have different fathers but same mother? Or did Jesus lie about the devil being someones father? Rick b
Setfree,
Given the fact that you have willingly apostatized from the Lord’s Church you do not have to worry your pretty little head about such matters as eternal progression. Your course is set and you will receive your just deserts – which is an eternity of single bliss worshipping Christ – in other words the evangelical notion of heaven.
However, consider this, eternity is an incredibly long time -untold billions and billions of years (as HankSaint stated “that is a loooooooooog time”)- and if you are not progressing then you are in a state of stagnation. Christ has promised the tremendous blessings of eternal progression and eternal increase to those who follow Him and keep His covenants and commandments. You have openly rejected His covenants and hence you have cut yourself off from the blessing of being a joint-heir with Christ.
The evangelical notion of heaven constitutes eternal stagnation and hence is a form of damnation given that one’s spiritual progression is limited or stopped. Given the choice between eternal stagnation or eternal progression I choose to follow Jesus Christ and shall be a joint-heir with Christ in the Celestial Kingdom.
Falcon, as per usual is spouting off in his inane manner about a topic of which he is completely ignorant.
I notice you guys (Hank, Crispin, etc) keep going back to the idea of eternal stagnation. Any Christian want to comment on this? I don’t think there is a one of them that believe that they will “sit on a cloud”, endlessly rotting for time and all eternity.
🙂
See here and scroll down two-thirds way down for my article, “Christianity Has a Far Greater View of Eternal Progression than Mormonism Does”. It is Mormons who should, in the deepest sense of progression, worry about stagnation. Why? Because in the Prattian Mormon model of eternal progression, gods become equal with each other in knowledge and power, ceasing to progress except in the external glory of their progeny. In the Brighamite model, all the gods always progress in all of their attributes, meaning that our God is not omnipotent or omniscient. In the traditional Christian model as I understand it, God is of infinite knowledge and power, doesn’t progress, and the saints ever-increasingly progress in knowledge and power forever, living endless lives replete with governance, responsibilities, work, play, food, worship, and community—all in the context of the enjoyment of the God of gods, the one true King of kings over all worlds.
Hank and Stuart really need to put a stake in the ground, telling us which Mormon model they ascribe to (Prattian, Brighamite, or even modern open theistic), so that we can have an informed discussion with them.
Grace and peace in Christ,
Aaron
Just to let everyone know, I have considered every questioned listed in the above article, and have answered every single one to my satisfaction, and find that my hope of being like my heavenly Father and having an eternal increase of children sounds great and I will be kicking myself in the head for eternity if I miss out on it.
Now, just to clarify, God’s children are not all on this earth, for he has created worlds without number and has peopled them with his children. Even after this Earth is Celestialized our Father will continue to have more spirit shildren who will continue to progress. This is the meaning of Eternal increase. This was also the promise made to Abraham when he was told he would have children as the sands of the sea. Ever try to count the sands of the sea? That is a lot of children, and I don’t think he has had that many descendants on this earth.
Of course this is just my belief, one taught by the early leaders of the LDS church (and of Course to all faithful saints in all ages of the world).
Now, let me ask one thing of our wonder Christian brethren. If God has ALL power, would this not include the power to make us gods like he is?
RickB,
You ask: “How can LDS say Families are forever?”
Families can be together forever provided that they keep the commandments and covenants of the Lord and become joint-heirs with Christ in the Celestial Kingdom. If a member of that family rejects the commandments and covenants of the Lord then that individual has no promise of exaltation.
You also ask: ” How can we all be God children if Jesus said, you are of YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL?”
The Bible is replete with allegory and symbols. In LDS doctrine this is an allegorical reference to Lucifer. Lucifer, having no physical body, cannot beget children and therefore cannot be the “father” of anyone.
I think it’s instructive that the Mormons who think they are going to become gods and also think that god was a man are the SLC Mormons and the FLDS polygamists. Two other sects of Mormonism, the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot, don’t buy it. They stick to original Mormonism without all the weird stuff; namely polytheism and polygamy. Within Mormonism, there is disagreement on this most fundamental of doctrines, the nature of God.
I’ve yet to find an orthodox Jewish polytheist. I’d think, since they are God’s chosen people, they’d have a pretty good idea of the God that reveals Himself in the OT. The fact of the matter is that the SLC Mormons and their brothers in the FLDS have taken a turn towards polytheism and have bought one more of Joseph Smith’s fantasies.
The minigod program is what you get when you have a bunch of people who have zero knowledge of systematic theology and no respect for any form of structured rules for interpreting scripture. These are the revelation folks who can justify just about any religious practice or doctrine because of how they feel about it. This of course changes and flips and flops depending what direction the wind is blowing in Salt Lake City.
Pookachamp
What explanations did you hear prior to becoming a Mormon? I ask because it seems like you think that we adhere to an ancient heresy know as sabellianism/modalism. This is a common misconception of the Trinity that many Mormons have. The father is not the son and neither are the holy spirit. Yes, many Christians legitimately call God “father” , but they also legitimately call him “master“ or “friend“.
The doctrine of the Trinity differentiates between “being” and “person”. God is one being in three persons. All persons of the Trinity are co-equal, co-eternal, and of the same substance as each other; this does not preclude there being a type of rank or subornation within the Trinity.
If you look at the word “heir” ( κληρονομιαν) it appears in the gospels in the parable of the vine-growers where Jesus is the heir. The other warners in the story, the prophets, are actually referred to as servants. In Paul’s writings, being an heir is akin to being a proper son and not the son of a concubine. True Christians are sons of God not through Sarah, our heavenly mother, or some other woman but rather through adoption. We are adopted unto God and are thus proper sons and daughters of God. This makes us “heirs” of God’s grace.
In Hebrews, Noah is called an heir of righteousness. Biblically, Heir an be used to denote a type of bequeathed getting that does not necessarily mean material possessions (including worlds). It is an analogy, a way of speaking and writing. Just as we are sons but not literally sons of God or at least not sons of the flesh. The Bible uses several ways to describe God’s people and “son” and “heir” are just two. As I am sure you are aware the husband wife analogy is used of the Church and Israel.
This is a major defect that I see in LDS theology. If we are literal, physical sons of God then there really is no good explanation for the adoption motif in the Bible or the other analogies like master-servant, friend-friend, bride-groom, etc.
I think HankSaint’s response clearly reveals that Mormonism does not teach what it means to worship God. I also think crispin’s response shows that Mormonism doesn’t grasp the concept that God operates out of time, and that we probably won’t mark time as we do in this broken and fallen existence. It’s sad that the views these two present describe an existence with God as boring–and that they think they are authorities on the subject. Very puffed-up and very sad.
Blessings…
JACK
The LDS church grasp very well that God operates outside of time, in the sense that he is in an eternal state, thus not bound by the time paterns of this earth but by the scale used in the eternities. Do we understand what this scale is? No. But we know very well that it is different than ours.
The idea that he is completely out of time in every sense defies all reasoning power that we have been gifted with, and so, yes we do deny this concept.
DAVID
If you make a distinction between being and person in the way you speak it sounds more like a God of multiple personalities, and I have no desire to worship a being with mental problems.
St Crisp,
No mormon has openly said family’s are forever “IF” they do this or that, It is always simply stated Family’s are forever.
Then you said Jesus was speaking in Metaphor when He said you are of your father the devil, I dont believe it was metaphor because Jesus went on to say, You speak his language and do his works. So is the Devils Language also a metaphor?
Their is no indication given that Jesus was speaking in metaphor. Rick b
DAVID
Sorry about my last comment. It was out of line, and off topic, and I shouldn’t have said it.
Joseph Smith apparently liked to read from the German translation of the NT (King Follet discourse) and considered it the most accurate of any translation. Why would our seer not read the Greek, the language in which it was originally written?
This brings me to an error in doctrine introduced by the KJV. In John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18, the word used is monegenous, monogenes, monogene, and monogenous, respectively.
This word denotes uniqueness, one of a kind or an only child. It leaves no room for other children. It us used in Luke 7:12 to denote that the dead son was the only son of his widowed mother.
To Christian ears, “only begotten” still means “only”. This is why the doctrine that God the Father manifested himself physically and had physical sex with Mary to produce a physical son came about. To the Mormon, Jesus is the only “begotten” of the Father. I guess we were not “begotten” in the pre-existence.
Had the word “begotten” not been inserted into the text and had been rendered “one and only” it may have been harder for JS to pass off his false doctrine.
David W.,
Excellent post! I got a burning in my bosom as I read it, so I know that what you wrote it true.
Well friends, the falcon must go and “consult” for a couple of days so I won’t be posting. I know these will leave a tremendous void in the lives of our Mormon posters. I “know” that I’m just about their favorite Christian.
Does it snow in northern Minnesota in August? I’ll take my boots just in case.
Oh my, I got so excited about what David wrote that I made two typos on my last post.
Aaron,
What happened to that really neat feature that let us correct our posts? I don’t have that any more. I switched to firefox. Would that make it disappear?
RickB,
You stated: “No mormon has openly said family’s are forever “IF” they do this or that, It is always simply stated Family’s are forever.”
Your statement is incorrect. Eternal marriage and the sealing of a family is conditional upon:
A. Keeping sacred ordinances and covenants;
B. Living faithfully
If these conditions are not met then there is no promise or blessing of a family being together forever. This is basic LDS doctrine which you should know given that you are an “LDS Priesthood holder”.
It is readily apparent and traditional Christian doctrine that Christ is using a metaphor to describe the hypocritical Pharisees as being “children of the devil”.
LIV4JC
Concerning your remarks on that one word, it would have presented no difficulty. Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father where mortal life is concerned, or in the Flesh. This is what the LDS teach. Thus, when it comes to his physical body he is the one and only person to have an immortal Father. We are all physically born of mortal parents, while he was born of a mortal Mother and Immortal Father, making him the only begotten son of God in the Flesh.
Pretty Simple.
Second, if you actual read the King Follet discourse you would know that Joseph Smith did read the Greek version (or as old a copy of the Greek version as was available to him) and still pronounced the German to be more correct in its translation. He said “I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Latin, Hebrew, German and Greek languages. I have been reading the German, and find it to be the most [nearly] correct translation, and to
correspond nearest to the revelations which God has given to me for the last fourteen years.” (http://scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdf page 349).
RICK
It is always taught that Family is eternal because the concept and formation of the Family is eternal. It has never been taught that all families are eternal, only that all can be eternal if covenants are Kept.
As to Satan being the Father, this is spoken in the sense that we are the spiritual children of he whom we obey. We are the literal spirit children of the Father, but those who obey Christ are his children through adoption, and those who obey Satan are his children through Adoption. As God has said that all those who are not with him are against him you are the son of one or the other.
Shem,
You’re following statement was confusing: “Second, if you actual read the King Follet discourse you would know that Joseph Smith did read the Greek version (or as old a copy of the Greek version as was available to him) and still pronounced the German to be more correct in its translation.”
The Greek would be the original while the German would be the translation. What you’re saying amounts to this: if I write a book in English (which is my natural language), a translation of my book in German would be more correct than the original I wrote. Does that make sense to you? That’s basically what you are claiming JS said. The red flags are waving and the bells are clanging, Shem.
Peace…
shematwater. You missed my point entirely. Let’s try a little exegesis instead of eisegesis. The idea of taking out of a text what it clearly states instead of importing preconceived ideas into a text. One matter however to clear up first. Greek is not another translation of the ancient scriptures. It is the language the NT was written in. To get the most accurate reading, if available, one should read from the Greek, not the German.
John’s gospel begins with claiming that the Word (Logos) was from eternity (en arche en ho Logos) and that Logos was with Theos (God) from eternity. “What God was the Word was” (kai Theos en ho Logos). All things were created by the Logos (who is from eternity with God). That Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. That Logos is also the only unique one of Theos. There is not another the Logos. This Logos is also said to be the creator of all things. “All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created” (John 1:2)
This is the description of the Second person of the eternal Godhead. According to JS in the King Follet discourse (thank you for the pdf link by the way. I didn’t have it with foot notes and all.) All of us are as co-eternal and self existant as God.
“We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but
how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it became a living soul. (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.” The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself.”
Spirit babies? Firstborn son? Brother of Lucifer? I thought the prophet said we were all eternally co-existant.
This is all real fun. It gives me a chance to break out my Greek NT and other reference works. It reveals to me the well-worn paths the Bible has made in my mind about the truth and consistency of God’s word. But if nobody is saved it is all for naught. We can argue all day long over doctrine and reliability of scripture, but the real issue is: Where are you with your sin? How will you stand before God on the day of judgement?
You speak of becoming gods by living the commandments. How are you doing with that? You can’t even keep the original Ten Moses handed down from Mt. Sinai. How can you possibly hope to keep the others laid down by your church. You are not keeping them. None of you are. How do I know? Because any honest man knows that he cannot live according to God’s standards.
Are you doing all you can do? How do you know? Did you pray enough? Did you have a dirty thought (Jesus said lust is adultery). Did you get angry at someone without cause (Jesus said this kind of anger is murder)?
Friends, Jesus paid for your sin. All of it. Past, present, and future. Confess your sinful state before a Holy God, believe that Christ’s blood paid for your sins, turn from your self-righteous man centered repentance and repent before God, truly sorry for violating His law. Beg for forgiveness at the foot of the cross and God promises that he will wipe your slate clean.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (Col 2:13-15)
liv4jc states: “Greek is not another translation of the ancient scriptures. It is the language the NT was written in. ”
Well, yes and no. The apostle Paul was very well educated and most likely wrote his epistles and other writings in Greek. However, the original manuscripts of the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) along with almost all other non-Pauline New Testament scriptures were undoubtedly written in the language of the authors – namely Aramaic.
We do not have the original manuscripts but only Greek translations of those manuscripts with the earliest fragments dating some 70 to 100 years after the original manuscripts had been written.
Upon reading these various posts by evangelicals it is readily apparent that they simply do not understand LDS doctrine regarding eternal progression. The notion that Mormons believe that they will become “mini-gods” with thunderbolts shooting out of their finger tips is completely false and constitutes a gross distortion of LDS doctrine.
The LDS concept of eternal progression can be best described as becoming joint-heirs with Jesus Christ in the Celestial Kingdom. In the Celestial Kingdom we will continue to grow grace upon grace as we serve our Heavenly Father. This may be a lengthy process. However, there will be no limit to our progression as there is no limit to Heavenly Father’s Kingdom.
Liv4jc-
I like that you speak Greek… maybe you can properly translate the meaning of the Bible, and all of this will be settled… right?
You stated a lot of truth in your last post/sermon… You’re right, none of us can keep all the commandments all the time. Can we try our hardest? Hmmm… tough question… I’ll let you answer. You (biblical/traditional/creedal christianity) find convenience in saying that you DON’T have to try your hardest… it’s just given.
You’re right, Christ already sacrificed himself for our sins. He already paid the price. We’ve already been “forgiven” in a sense. We chose to believe that we now need to act like it! Stop coming up with excuses as to why we shouldn’t act like it… like your mumbo jumbo about being self-righteous, or only requiring a dead faith to be saved… We all need to accept his sacrifice, and we do that by doing (word of action) what he has asked us to do. Have (word of action) faith. Obey (word of action) his commandments, and honor (word of action) his word. If we all together turn from him and “do not as he asks”, then we are as good to him as the blind eye that will not see.
You preach faith and repentance… and that GOd doesn’t care what we Do (word of action). We believe he does…
And if we do… we can become “co-heirs” with Christ, and inherit ALL that our Father has. All…
st.crispin. There is a tradition that at least one gospel, Matthew, was written in Hebrew or Aramaic. That would seem to make sense since out of the four gospels Matthew is obviously written to the Jews. However, Greek was the common language of commerce in Palestine while Jesus lived. The issue has merits on both sides. Until I study more about it I’m not going to make any hard and fast statements. Besides, on me, it’s off subject anyway : )
Pooka said:
“Christ is not my God/Father”
Are you certain?
You should check out your topical guide, where both Jehovah and Elohim are given “God the Father” status, and the verses that apply to each are separated out for you, so you know when “God the Father” applies to Christ, and when to Elohim.
Setfree-
Do you know how Mormon’s believe the word father replies to Christ?
Huge problem with this website… taking things the way you want to, to make it sound controversial.
Christ, through the power of God, participated directly in the creation of this world… thus, is the “father” of these creations. God the Father, is the creator of our spirits, and is thus the father of my soul. Do you understand? Or is this too complicated?
pooka, can you show me some verses from the Old Testament that apply to God the Father, creator of our spirits (as opposed to Christ who created our world)?
Pooka, the bible has been translated correctly. Are you aware that you sound like a Roman Catholic or a Muslim when you start calling into question the reliability of the scriptures? And also a Mormon of course, but that’s a given.
Simply stated: words have meaning and a put into sentences. We know what the Greek words mean and how to interpret sentences based upon known rules of Greek grammar. Cults always question the reliability of the Bible because its clearly stated doctrines refute their beliefs.
There is widespread agreement amongst religious and secular scholars about what the Bible says; what the words mean in their context, etc. Whether or not a person chooses to believe if what it states is true or not is where the debate begins. If you throw out the translation of the Bible then toss out every other ancient book as unreliable based upon your standards. Especially the BoM of which we have no manuscript evidence at all. I suggest some research into textual criticism. You might be surprised.
Also, please tell me how God is the creator of our spirits. Was my post above quoting JS’s King Follet discourse in error? JS said God didn’t have the power to “create” anything. We are co-existent with God. He’s just more knowledgable than us. Please tell me where I’m wrong.
By the by. Read Romans 6 and 7 in regards to sin after salvation. Shall we sin all the more that grace may be multiplied! May it never be! (Romans 6:1)
Liv4jc,
You are putting your own interpretation into the beginning of John. It starts with “In the Beginning”. The beginning of what? If this is referring to a beginning and we take your interpretation of it, then God must have a beginning as well. It states no where about ‘from eternity’ as you have written. So what is this beginning? It is the beginning of this world and the ‘time scape’ around it. It is a set time point that was at the start of our system’s existence. This in no way explicitly states nor implies that Jesus is co-eternal with God. I am not arguing the point that they are co-eternal, just saying that you have misinterpreted that scripture.
Jackg,
JS said that the German was the best translation and the closest in meaning to what he had been receiving in revelations from God. This could mean a couple of things –
1) It is the best translation from the original Greek in comparison to Latin, English and Hebrew, and he wasn’t including the Greek version he had in this comparison.
2) Languages are ‘limiting’ in their descriptions. For example in English we have the word ‘stamina’ meaning ability to keep moving after a heavy work load. In Finnish they have a similar word ‘sisu’ – however it has a stronger, deeper meaning than stamina, it’s like stamina plus, or stamina squared. Maybe this is what JS meant, that the original writer used the words that he was inspired to use, but in the translation from that language to German, a word with a deeper, better meaning was used which brings it ‘closer’ to what God wanted it to mean. I love reading the scriptures in Finnish and English as I can get deeper/better meanings from one or the other in cases like this.
Just a thought.
Setfree,
A wonderful, thoughtful article. Did you ever think that this life mirrors our heavenly life? You as a parent would not like it if you child left home and then became a murderer/rapist/etc, would you? What would you do if they did? I would try and talk them out of it and let them know they are on the wrong path and the consequenses of that path. However, I would also allow them to make their own mind up about things as it is their life to live not mine. I would be sad, disappointed, you name it, and it would not be easy to do, but the cord has to be cut.
This is how I see our Heavenly Father working. He has given us our lives to live and our choice. He gives us many warnings on what will happen if we follow the wrong path. He is patient and loving with the ones that go astray, but He will not force them to come back on the correct path. Ultimately He will get to ‘three’ (I usually give my children 3 strikes/warnings; but now I am referring to Judgment) and if the person has not changed, then they will suffer the punishment forewarned about. Does He like doing this? No I don’t believe He does, especially since I don’t like doing it to my daughters. But that’s the way it is and will always be.
Will some, when they become gods abuse their power as you have written about (ie lambourghini’s, etc)? No, none will. Why? Because this life is the proving ground where we can show Heavenly Father that we are capable of using our inheritance wisely. Those who prove they can’t will not receive this gift.
Jackg
I think HankSaint’s response clearly reveals that Mormonism does not teach what it means to worship God. I also think crispin’s response shows that Mormonism doesn’t grasp the concept that God operates out of time, and that we probably won’t mark time as we do in this broken and fallen existence. It’s sad that the views these two present describe an existence with God as boring–and that they think they are authorities on the subject. Very puffed-up and very sad.
Blessings…
Blessing to you too Jack, I would hard say that either I or Crispin think being with God will be boring, but picking out clouds, remembering to bring you harp, and not forgetting the many verses you will be singing for time and eternity, hmmm, you say fun, I say boring. Now Aaron was about to give us some Evangelical meat on the what, how and why of time and space with God, but he never got around to it, just kind of wants to know if Hank and Stuart really need to put a stake in the ground, telling us which Mormon model they ascribe to (Prattian, Brighamite, or even modern open theistic), so that we can have an informed discussion with them.
Hmmm, informed, how about telling us what other then singing praises, and playing harps has to do with informed discussions.
Aaron, what is your take on daily eternal fun or activities, of course you could come watch us LDS create stuff, you know kind of leave the group and see what going on, or maybe better yet, attend one of our Heavenly Missionary Discussions, where we could teach you the Plan of Salvation, what say you guys.
r.
Setfree,
“On this forum there are basically two God views up for grabs. Neither can explain where God came from. Neither can explain how or why He became God.”
Its off topic, but the historical Buddha avoided the question of the existence or non-existence of god. I heard some people say that he thought it wasn’t relevent or was something that didn’t have an answer. Instead, the thought of the ‘middle way’ where there was a workable philosophy and ethics which was not dependent on god or no-god.
Enki,
You make me smile. You’ve really come out of your shell around here. You look into lots of stuff, and conclude to walk in the middle of the road? Are you looking for something more fulfilling? Something that gives you real joy? Something that takes away your pain, guilt, fear? Something that fills the empty places in your life? your heart?
If you are, I invite you took start hanging out with the “archetypal jew”. You ought to really give it a try.
(Notice, I’m not asking you to join a “church”?)
🙂
God bless, my friend
Aaron,
“In the traditional Christian model as I understand it, God is of infinite knowledge and power, doesn’t progress, and the saints ever-increasingly progress in knowledge and power forever, living endless lives replete with governance, responsibilities, work, play, food, worship, and community—all in the context of the enjoyment of the God of gods, the one true King of kings over all worlds.”
I thought that fundementalist christians didn’t believe in a physical body after death. That sort of sounds like a continuation of this life, just perhaps a lot better. What about sex? I guess thats out.
“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25
So, that is one MAJOR factor of mortal life, and missing that one thing would change everything. Your statement is this ‘biblical’, or is it someones speculation?
Setfree,
Are you in agreement that Jesus is an “archetypal jew”? Hanging out with this character means reading/studying the bible and praying? Doing the above is even better with more seasoned believers? Not that there is anything wrong with any of that. Just want to understand how all of that is defined.
If I were God…
…I definitely would NOT set things up so that I would, at some point, enter into the world I made and get myself crucified, so that those who crucified me might have life…
..thank God that I am not God.
Joseph Smith thought he was a spiritual genius when he hatched what he thought was a new doctrine – the doctrine of exaltation. Actually, this was thought up long ago by someone that is more of a genius than him. Exaltation is in the Bible – that’s right. The genius? It was Lucifer (Satan). He knew the pride problem that mankind had back then and would exhibit today because he had the same problem. Satan created the doctrine of exaltation on mankind in Genesis 3:5 – “ye shall be as gods”.
Adam and Eve were ignorant and sinful back then for buying into it and anyone who does so today is even more ignorant for not learning from their SIN – Romans 5:12 (not some other word as taught in Mormonism). It takes an extreme amount of arrogance and pride to think that one is going to become a god or like God when God clearly says that anyone who thinks this isn’t going to make it – Isaiah 43:10-12. What a bunch of fools! Mormons have a good model to choose from: Satan. He wanted to be like God Isaiah 14:12-14. The cost – Isaiah 14:15.
Mormons: continue to follow the template of your master (Satan) who modeled this thinking of trying to become like God and you will end up where he is headed – the lake of fire as stated in Revelation 20:10 that was created for him and his fallen angels that bought into Satan’s idea in Matthew 25:41.
You can’t blame your ignorance on Joseph Smith. You don’t have any. Romans 1:20
Thank God we don’t have to understand the Mormon doctrine on eternal progression since it’s a false doctrine (but I do understand it). It’s more critical for Mormons to come into alignment with the biblical perspective. It is apparent that we are trying to explain something we can’t–namely how God came into existence. There’s the problem right there–God has always existed and has always been God. Can I grasp that concept truly? No. I really don’t have to worry my finite head with that discussion since all I need to know is that God created me, has brought me into relationship with Him by purchasing me with His blood, and that this is key to living eternity in His presence. All this babble about becoming gods, creating worlds and spirit children versus the false view of sitting on a cloud, counting clouds, playing harps, and being bored out of our minds is all very foolish talk– but we, as human beings, are downright stupid. The biblical text says that we are like sheep, and sheep are pretty darn dumb. So, I admit that I am pretty darn dumb, and it’s okay because all I really have to know, in fact not even know but trust, is that Jesus Christ–who is the incarnation of the invisible God (I know that’s hard to grasp as well)–took on the form of man and was crucified because of my iniquities. He rose from the dead on the third day, thus conquering death for me and all those who BELIEVE on Him. In response to His mercy and grace, I have chosen to be crazy mad in love with Him and to live a life of obedience because such a life puts me in the center of His will for my life. I look forward with great anticipation to living eternally with God. I am not exactly sure how that will look or how it will play out, but I trust that it will be beyond my wildest imaginations!!!
Peace and Blessings…
Hank said:
“…in fact there would be no progression except deciding what cloud you would pick for that particular time and space. Interesting concept, nothing to do but sit, sing and praise…I would hard say that either I or Crispin think being with God will be boring, but picking out clouds, remembering to bring you harp, and not forgetting the many verses you will be singing for time and eternity, hmmm, you say fun, I say boring…Hmmm, informed, how about telling us what other then singing praises, and playing harps”
Guess what, Hank? Your rhetoric sounds exactly like the blatant followers of your master who hatched the doctrine of exaltation and mock Christianity: Satan – your leader. They say:
“We Satanists, owe him (Anton Szandor LaVey) our gratitude for symbolically opening the adamantine gates of Hell, by giving form and structure to a philosophy that names as the GODS OF OUR OWN SUBJECTIVE UNIVERSES” (Satanic Bible, p. 17)
Arrogant Mormonns: just substitue “LaVey” and put in the word “Joseph Smith” and it’s a perfect fit.
“Why not really be honest and if you are going to create a god in your image, why not create that god as yourself.” (Satanic Bible, p. 96)
“All devout ‘white-lighters’ are concerned with pleasing God so that they might have the ‘PEARLY GATES’ opened for them when they die.” (Satanic Bible, p. 43)
“Heaven must be popuated with some rather strange creatures if all they lived for was to go to a place WHERE THEY CAN STRUM THEIR HARPS FOR ETERNITY.” (Satanic Bible, p. 47)
So, Hank and other Mormons, keep up the mockery. You’re in evil company with your unknown brothers and sisters – the Satanists. You wouldn’t believe how many other things they believe that are similar to Mormonism. It’s a long list. Your ignorance of what eternity is going to be like with God shows the shallowness of your biblical studies and non-existent relationship with the real Jesus as presented in the Bible.
Setfree,
“What if I don’t want all that responsibility? Will I have to have it, or can I say “no”, that I’d rather just populate my world with cool plants and animals? Will that make me a lesser god?”
Great minds think alike. Maybe we have the same heavenly mother? All of this got me thinking of the saying “the Devil is in the details.” That got me thinking of Al Pacino as the Devil.
“You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire; you build egos the size of cathedrals; fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse; grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green, gold-plated fantasies, until every human becomes an aspiring emperor, becomes his own God… and where can you go from there?”
The first sinner was Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12-14):
How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
But you said in your heart,
`I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
`I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
It was this same being who convinced the man and the woman to disobey God in the hope of attaining deification. But Mormonism does not call this a “sin” but a “transgression”. This fall was really no fall at all as man “fell up”(II Nephi 2:25). Is it any wonder that it is Satan who appears when Adam prays to God? Is it any wonder that Satan is unchallenged when he pronounces himself the god of this world? Is it any wonder that it is Lucifer who instructs the man and the woman to wear fig leaves (which Mormons emulate)? Is it any wonder that the sign of Satan’s power and priesthood is the same sign as that worn by Mormons?
If Mormons continue to follow their father they “will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.”
Good points Andy!
Lets see, keeping up the mockery, I really don’t know of anyone better then Falcon at doing that, but hey, I guess what goes around comes around. What you project is usually what you receive back. I came here gave my best, got shot down and mocked, so please accept the turnaround as only trying to stay up with the Jones, (FALCONS) 🙂
I have a real problem believing that God of all eternity, He who has always been God, decided once in time and space to create a earth, and a universe so large that it seems to expand for ever. Yet God only created this earth at this particular time and space. Kind of self centered to think we are the only ones in this immense universe and there are no other creations, but thats what the Creeds are all about, right?. So here we Have God sitting around for eons and eons, in space that is vacant of any matter, and one eon he decides to create this wonderful Universe out of nothing, and people it just once and never again. Poof here we are, never existed, but now exist, and guess what for eternity.
So to believe this you have to believe that eternity, which is never ending, had a beginning, I think someone used the wrong word here. Lets see, Eternity with a beginning, kind of a oxymoron. Now God must have been kind of bored, just hanging around in empty nothingness until He had this wonderful idea of creation. Now if God never created before, this would be a new thing, never done before, so God would have to consider as learning something new. But this flies in the face of His being omnipotent and omniscient, which I will simply call Divine Paradoxes. Can God create a “blurp”? What is a “blurp”? An incoherent concept which is exactly what Creedal Christians have to believe to make there very round blocks fit in their very square holes they have created for themselves. God did not create a Blurp, God did not create something out of nothing, and this Universe is more then one earth and one people.
R.
Hank,
“watch us LDS create stuff”
In the strictest sense of the word, you will not “create” stuff. You do not have that power and you will never get it because your god does not have it either. Sure you can make stuff, but then again so can I and every other person on this blog. We do it now, and we don’t need heaven for that.
“I have a real problem believing that God of all eternity, He who has always been God, decided once in time and space to create a earth, and a universe so large that it seems to expand for ever. Yet God only created this earth at this particular time and space. Kind of self centered to think we are the only ones in this immense universe and there are no other creations, but thats what the Creeds are all about, right?. So here we Have God sitting around for eons and eons, in space that is vacant of any matter, and one eon he decides to create this wonderful Universe out of nothing, and people it just once and never again. Poof here we are, never existed, but now exist, and guess what for eternity.”
There is so much wrong with the above, in terms of cosmology, that it seems like you are in the Dark Ages. Actually, you are so far off you are pre- Dark Ages, as the Muslims, Jews, and Christians of that time period believed in a transcendent deity. Your view is much more like a Hellenistic pagan. I could see you Pagan Hank belittling a 2nd century Christian simply because he believes in an immaterial god which everybody knows can’t exist. And you really expect us to believe that the primitive church believed in your pagan materialism then apostatized towards monotheism? Is your whole argument, “Eternity means eternity so there cannot possibly be a prime mover because that would be an oxymoron”?
Continued,
Dr. James H. Breasted, Breasted’s main argument against the Book of Abraham is that the Hebrews were monotheists and the Egyptians polytheists: both points have always been disputed among Egyptologists, some of the greatest being ardent defenders of a standard Egyptian monotheism, yet for Breasted the question is settled once he has spoken. When the Mormons pointed out that Breasted had identified as the lady Isis in Facsimile 1 a figure that other Egyptologists had called Horus, Anubis, or a priest, Dr. Breasted impatiently remarked to Mercer: “One man says fifty cents, another man says half a dollar!” But it isn’t the same at all; Isis and Horus are as different quantities as half a dollar and half a pound.
Dr. Edward Meyer, He had visited Utah in 1904, and a year before Spalding’s book appeared, he had published his Ursprung und Geschichte der Mormonen. In that book Meyer had made it perfectly clear just what he thought about Joseph Smith, whom he regarded as a prophet in exactly the same sense in which Isaiah, Jeremiah, and (to a lesser degree) Mohammed were prophets. He was free to run the risk of paying such high tribute to the Mormon Prophet because everyone knew that he did not for a moment believe that there ever was such a thing as a true prophet; in keeping with the lofty scholarship of his day, Meyer disdained to grant the smallest measure of probability to any proposition tainted with the supernatural. That, as Otto points out, is what spoiled what should have been his greatest work, that on the Origins of Christianity, in which “everything in the person of Christ must be explained on rationalistic grounds. He never allowed for the irrational element in the human character.”36 So it is no compliment to Joseph Smith for Meyer to place him among the real prophets, for Meyer begins from the premise that all prophets are self-deluded. Granted that premise, there is only one position, of course, that one can possibly take regarding Joseph Smith’s claims to divine revelation and only one view that anyone can possibly take of his teachings in the Book of Abraham.
So Bishop Spalding was appealing to a judge who had already declared against any form of supernaturalism. Eduard Meyer, a great man that he was, was also a judge on whom Spalding could count with absolute trust to give only one answer to his question about the Book of Abraham. By stating with great emphasis and clarity his views on religion in general and Joseph Smith in particular, in effect he disqualifies himself for the jury.
Shem,
“As to Satan being the Father, this is spoken in the sense that we are the spiritual children of he whom we obey. We are the literal spirit children of the Father, but those who obey Christ are his children through adoption, and those who obey Satan are his children through Adoption.”
I think the whole point of bringing up John 8:44 is to demonstrate the inconsistency of attributing the devil’s patriarchy as metaphorical/allegorical, but not to do the same thing with God. There is no reason to believe that we are literal, physical offspring of God (and as Aaron pointed out in a way we are not even God’s offspring in Mormonism — pre-existing “intelligences”) simply because the Bible uses the word “son“. The adoption theme/motif makes no sense if one goes this route. Someone does not “adopt” his own kids. You are only adopted if you are born separated or apart from the God who made you. That does not jive at all with LDS/Pelagian sensibilities.
St. C.,
“Your course is set and you will receive your just deserts – which is an eternity of single bliss worshiping Christ – in other words the evangelical notion of heaven.”
But we won’t have the Father there so “no” we will not have our idea of heaven. If we are on the subject of deification I think it is appropriate to talk about its opposite. Suppose you are right and I am wrong – I at least get a type of heaven. So, suppose I am right and you are wrong . . . Just droppin a little Pascal’s Wager on you.
St Crispin,
To some degree you and all other LDS are very dishonest and use deception. You say if we attended certain classes were told exactly how families are forever.
Yet like I said before, if all you tell people is Families are forever and leave it at that then they assume thats all their is to it, nothing more.
I have many many LDS that seem to lie or leave out info. Here is a few examples. I have told many MM’s that they have a different gospel than me, and they then said to me, what do you believe. I told them I believe Jesus Died for me, I believe in grace alone, I believe Jesus is the only way to the father and that Jesus is eternal and is God. The MM’s said, we believe the same as you.
You and I know that not true, I have gotten LDS on this board to admit they have a different gospel and even if you believe your is the correct one, it’s still different. You guys take an arrogant view that LDS know everything and we know nothing. Many times LDS simply dont want to be honest so they say we believe as you do.
Since many people dont know the difference they cannot call BS on it, but those of us who know the difference and start to point it out here the reply, meat before milk.
You guys are arrogant because you assume we know nothing unless you fill us in on what it is. Then family’s still cannot be forever. Even if all members of a family are serving the LDS god, then after you have your spirit kids, they will get their own planet and so on. If God of the Bible has a father then according to the Bible, God says, I KNOW of NO OTHER GODS, THEIR ARE NONE BESIDES ME.
Is God lying? How could He forget his own father? If family’s are forever how can God say He knows of no other gods, what a lousy son, forgets His own dad.
A great example of MM’s lying is this, I have had friends who know nothing about LDS so they call me and ask if I can be with them when LDS show up.
Many times my friends ask honest questions like, Can we drink Coffee, the LDS
JACK and Liv4JC
Can you say will all certainty that the copies we have of the Greek New Testiment are the exact copies written by the Early Apostles? Are you sure we don’t have transcriptions rather than originals?
This is what I believe Joseph Smith was talking about. He called it a translation because the others were, but the greek was a transcription, and one that had errors in it.
As to the Eternal Nature of Christ as you give from John 1, I agree with what was said, that you misinterpret these verses. They speak only of the existance of this earth.
ANDY
Joseph Smith never thought he was the genius, but the God was the genius and he was privilaged to learn under his tutalige.
As to your Quote from Genesis to prove that it was Satan’s idea that we could become gods, read a little farther in the story. Read where God himself says that they had “become as one of us” even like God. (Genesis 3: 22) Thus the idea that they could be like God (or gods themselves) was supported by God. The lie of Satan was not that they would be like God, but that they wouldn’t die. (3: 4)