When I was very young, I became ill. The medicine my mother was going to administer was of the worst kind, in my mind, and there was no way I was going to obediently take it. So, I quickly hid in a closet, closed my eyes, bowed my head, and said “Dear Heavenly Father, please give me a magic wand, so that I can make myself better”.
That was a pretty silly prayer to expect God would answer, I doubt many would argue. And yet, how many of us have been pretty close?
We don’t know an answer to a test question: God, is it B, D, or E?
We are stuck in traffic: God, please get these people off the road.
We are lonely: God please send me a soul mate.
We are tired: God, please get my boss to let me go home.
We want a nice car: God, please get me a raise.
Etc.
How many of us have ever thought, if only I were God?
Think of the possibilities.
You could think the thought, and make the neighbor’s dog stop barking.
You could wiggle your finger, and your son’s tattoo would be gone.
You could simply want some breakfast, and it would appear, bedside.
What would you get for yourself, if you were a god? How about:
A mansion with swimming pool and tennis courts and servants?
An intergalactic Lamborghini?
The best-looking, most fun, sexiest lover to be had (or many of them)?
Or, thinking on a larger scale, would you, if you were a god:
Establish world peace?
Abolish diseases? Flies? Weeds?
Get rid of crime, poverty, societal problems of every kind?
(How noble of you. J)
What do you think you would do with your “power” if you were a god? Take a minute, think it over.
Ok. Here are some other questions pertaining to godhood that you may not so readily ask yourself:
Would I have to be “perfect”? What would that mean? Could I be angry? Jealous? Could I prefer something over another thing? Could I love? Hate? Be excited? Have to not get excited?
What would my responsibilities be? Would I have to answer to anyone?
Who would I be responsible to/for? Would I have to spend godhood the way God is? Would I have to have spirit children? Would I have to answer my children’s prayers night and day, day and night, for thousands of years?
Will I allow free agency for my spirit children? Will I have to? If so, what will I do about the ones who hate me? Who sacrifice my other children to idol gods? Who want to follow other gods in the universe besides me? What will I do with the ones who rape, murder, torture, defile my other children? Will I create a hell for them? Will I destroy them?
What if I just don’t allow free agency? Is there any thing wrong with that?
What if I don’t want all that responsibility? Will I have to have it, or can I say “no”, that I’d rather just populate my world with cool plants and animals? Will that make me a lesser god?
What if I get tired of being a god? Can I opt out? Can I give my world over to a different god to run for me? Can I just assume that once I am in heaven, I will always want to be a god, and for eternity, I will never change my mind? Never get tired and want to do something else? Will I be eternally content? Happy with being a god?
It may be easy to dismiss any or all of these kinds of questions with a “well, we’ll know later”. Easy for us to dismiss what “god” means, by just saying “well, he was like us, so, whatever!”
The prayer I offered up for a magic wand revealed my childlike understanding of God and how miracles happen. I am older now, and I have learned much more about “reality”. And yet, there is so much that I don’t know and may never understand.
I do believe, however, that if we were created by God, then there is an absolute truth about God, about what it means to be a god, and about whether or not godhood is possible for anyone besides God.
Consider the possibility that there is a One, a Power, a Knowledge, a Wisdom, a Presence that is so far above everything else as to be The Absolute. It knows so much more than me, that I could spend forever just learning about it and from it. It is so much more loving than I am, that I could spend forever being happy just being close to it. It has so much more than I do, that for eternity, I will never lack for provision, work, play, rest, enjoyment, growth, etc. It is infinitely personal and relational and intimate. He is so complete in himself that I will never ultimately need anything else but Him.
The Holy Bible suggests that God is like this.
It says God is everywhere; there is no place where He is not.
It says God is eternal; there was never a time when He was not God.
He has ALL of the power; He is absolutely Sovereign.
He is the source of everything; there is nothing that can exist without Him.
The Holy Bible’s description of God eliminates the possibility of there being more than one of them. How could there be, with attributes like these?
On this forum there are basically two God views up for grabs. Neither can explain where God came from. Neither can explain how or why He became God.
But personally, the Biblical view gives me peace I never had when I subscribed to the other view. It takes the illusion of control away from me. It absolves me from making myself my own hero. I have such freedom of mind and soul, knowing that God created me, that He worked/is working out my salvation, and that He will be my heaven when this life is over. Given what He has created and surrounded me with so far, I’m extremely excited to find out what He has planned!
Well get back to you on the others, in the mean time could you please tell me what their interpretation were and if they agree on the same thing. It’s easy to fault Joseph Smith, but then not to agree on the interpretation amongst themselves, we find that Egyptology is not a exact science, and your giving us of names does not in any way prove or disprove your claim. Do the research and show where they agree or disagree.
r.
Cont,
The LDS reply with, No we cannot, the WoW says we cannot drink coffee. Then I point out they are lying, the WoW forbids drinking HOT DRINKS, Why is it so hard to just say, the WoW says no hot drinks but we define that as coffee. Thats really the most honest way to put it.
When as I said before, the LDS tell me they believe as I do, thats a lie, if we use the same names and terms on the surface it sound true, but once we dig deeper we find another gospel.
I have also had many MM’s tell me we will come back to never show up. I know the story, they might have moved or been transfered. Still they lied since they were given my Phone number and knew my address. They never called to tell me they moved or never sent anyone over.
I was lucky enough to meet a very honest MM in the sense that he told me they have monthly meetings and talk about people like me.
they point out where I live and say avid this guy. You guys black list people, I have had many an LDS tell me thats not true, So someone was lying to me. Then you guys judge me and say, many LDS have spoken with him over and over, he rejects our message so avoid him.
Truth is, not only do you judge my heart, but you guys really do not want green young MM’s seeing the truth, so they are not allowed to come to my house and see my LDS books and decide for themselves.
I sat in on a GC once, before it got started a LDS lower “Presdient” Stake or something along those lines got up and gave his Testimony. It was along the lines of, I hated LDS And fought them on every point like the Christians do, Yet they never gave up on my and now I’ve come to the truth.
I thought this guy is either lying or things changed since his time, He looked to be in his 50’s or 60’s. Because LDS give up to fast now adays. So I see lots of lying and using deception by LDS. Rick b
DAVID
You last post assumes that Christ and the Father are the same entity or being. This is not part of LDS doctrine.
The Father is the literal Father of our spirits, and this has been said more than once in the Bible. Christ is not this Father, but he is still our Father in a spiritual sense through adoption. The Adoption is perfectly logical because he is not the literal Father of our spirits, and thus for him to be our Father it must be through adoption, and this is the same concerning Satan.
I gave the doctrine of the LDS church. This is what is taught. It is not metaphorical but quite literal. We are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven. We make ourselves the literal spiritual children of either Christ or Satan through our actions (we choose who our Father will be).
By the way, your reference to us being the Physical children of God is completely false, and has never been taught by any leader of the church, or any member on these threads.
RICK
In general we do not assume you know nothing, only that you know very little. All men have truth, and I do agree with much of what you have said. However, in connection with these threads my only intent in to show the truth of the LDS church (not eternal truth but what we actual believe). In this area you do not have all the understand you pretend to, and it is obvious that you do not when you speak concerning it.
As to not having the same gospel, no we don’t, because we have the full gospel while you have only part mixed with deption propogated by Satan. However, the statement you made that the LDS agreed with “I believe Jesus Died for me, I believe in grace alone, I believe Jesus is the only way to the father and that Jesus is eternal and is God” is easily said to be the same as what we believe, because there is only one word that makes it different, thus easily missed. That is “alone” as we do not think grace is all that is needed.
David, why attack me, give me something that makes common sense out of the Creedal mess you guys have placed your self in.
Please explain the inexplainable,
The doctrine of the Trinity differentiates between “being” and “person”. God is one being in three persons. All persons of the Trinity are co-equal, co-eternal, and of the same substance as each other; this does not preclude there being a type of rank or subornation within the Trinity.
Richard.
It has been, and continues to be, my experience that Mormons jump through all kinds of hoops to defend the ridiculous statements made by JS. Once again, JS did not use any manuscripts, so his JST is merely an interpretation by a man that was not a prophet of God. I can say with certainty that JS was not a prophet of God. It is so clearly evident that he was not a prophet of God. I think the intelligent Christian apologists on this site have defended admirably regarding the original manuscripts. Anything I would attempt to add would only mess things up. All I want to add is that I find it humorous and ironic that Mormons are even jumping into a discussion about biblical manuscripts while they accept a fictional writing called the BOM and the heretical writings of a false prophet without any documents (plates) to support their views. Their belief is founded on the promptings of a false spirit, and they have exchanged the Truth of God’s Word for a lie.
Peace…
Shem,
If you look at the Genesis account, neither God nor the serpent promise/acknowledge full deity (at least not immediately).
God – the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil
Serpent – you will be like God, knowing good and evil
Being “like God” is restricted by the words that follow “knowing good and evil”. So in one aspect you could say that Adam & Eve attained an attribute of God, but Godhood all together . . . If you believe that then you believe that Adam, Eve, and the Devil were gods already in the Garden. There is more to being God than just knowing good from evil. If it were not so you and I would already be gods. When God states ,“like God” it has already happened “have become”.
It could be argued that attaining this first knowledge was very much a part of the path to godhood. However, it seems that the man and woman understood that there was some advantage to be gained by disobeying god, but it appears that (immediate) deification was not on their minds – “the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise”. Also, we do not see God affirming this. It seems that the ultimate deification thing, is a later Mormon add-on. It may have been a hope of the Devil, possibly even a hope of the man & woman, but God does not affirm this possibility.
DAVID
In this verse God does not affirm deification, but he does affirm what the Serpant told Adam and Eve concerning becoming like God. This was my point. You claimed the idea of becoming a god came from Satan and used the Genesis account to support it. My point was that the Genesis account does not support the theory that the idea came from Satan. The reason is that God affirmed what Satan said concerning becoming like God, and since God was before Satan and has all knowledge then the idea was before Satan. Thus your statement that it originated with Satan was false (or at least had false evidence to support it).
Last night I was reading my Bible. I chose to read from the NA27 diglot. This is a NT that has Greek on one page, and the English translation on the facing page. Below the English translation are footnotes that give the exact word for word Greek translation when the English has been translated differently to give better clarity for the English reader (many times Greek leaves out direct objects, pronouns, etc) assuming the reader knows who or what is being spoken of by the grammatical construction of the sentence. This translation is also very open and honest about textual variations and has a large index in the back explaining why the NA27 decided to go with a particular manuscript rendering. The bottom of the facing Greek text has many references to the manuscripts that the text is derived from, and there are literally thousands of Greek manuscripts. It is very easy most times to discern which is the most probably reading by comparing more reliable manuscript evidence. In any case most of the variants have no effect on the meaning of the text, and no variant has any effect on the theology of the Bible. Even radical agnosto-atheist and NT Greek whiz Bart Ehrman agrees that the Christian religion would not be changed if the most prominent textual variants were allowed to remain in the text uncorrected.
If you don’t trust the Bible because you think it is hard to understand or has been translated incorrectly, learn Greek and read the Bible from the Greek yourself. It is not reformed Egyptian and does not require a seer stone or revelation from God to translate or understand. The meaning is clear.
This is so “to the point” that I’m going to quote it again.
The first sinner was Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12-14):
How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
But you said in your heart,
`I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
`I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
It was this same being who convinced the man and the woman to disobey God in the hope of attaining deification. But Mormonism does not call this a “sin” but a “transgression”. This fall was really no fall at all as man “fell up”(II Nephi 2:25). Is it any wonder that it is Satan who appears when Adam prays to God? Is it any wonder that Satan is unchallenged when he pronounces himself the god of this world? Is it any wonder that it is Lucifer who instructs the man and the woman to wear fig leaves (which Mormons emulate)? Is it any wonder that the sign of Satan’s power and priesthood is the same sign as that worn by Mormons?
If Mormons continue to follow their father they “will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.”
The LDS have lined themselves up with Satan. You believe him over God, you’ve got his priesthoods and his ambitions.
I’m praying for each of you that God will give you eyes to see and ears to hear.
RickB (LDS Priesthood holder),
You make the false accusation that: “you and all other LDS are very dishonest and use deception.”
Really, you are the last person on this planet to lecture anyone on the topic of honesty and integrity. You have repeatedly made the false claim that you are an LDS priesthood holder. Thus is such a blatant and, may I say, stupid lie that your credibility and intelligence is dubious.
RickB states: “You guys take an arrogant view that LDS know everything and we know nothing.”
Yes, I know LDS doctrine, given that I have been living and teaching it for 30 years. And yes, given the utterly ignorant statements and false accusations that you (and so many other evangelicals) have made against the LDS Church, its doctrine, leaders and people it is painfully obvious that you are indeed ignorant regarding the LDS Church.
Why would a Mormon Missionary want to waste his valuable time talking to an obnoxious person like you? It is no wonder that they avoid you.
I put it to you that you are the one who is lying and being deceptive.
Cont. Compare this to the BoM. LDS art depicts JS poring over the plates laid out on a table, reading by the light of a candle. This is so far from the truth. JS did not “read” the plates. He tossed a rock into a hat obscuring all light and the words appeared. If not written perfectly then they would not disappear until the correct translation was accomplished. Why then all of the errors in the early manuscripts? Why all the changes? And don’t blame it on the typesetter. The mistakes were brought up and he was told to print it as given.
My point is that we have tens of thousands of Greek and Latin manuscripts scattered all over the ancient world. They are in over 90% agreement with one another. We can study them today. We can physically examine them and learn to read Greek ourselves to get a real “witness” that they are reliable and what they say is true.
Instead LDS choose to believe one man who claims he had golden plates. Other than the witnesses nobody else was allowed to see them. Death was threatened to those who looked upon them. Has God ever worked that way with other writings? There is no way to determine if JS even had the plates. And if he did, were they translated correctly? We have to take his word for it. Why are writings from the ancient Americas more sacred, and why hide them? Where are the other non-religious writings from that region? We have hundreds of thousands from the cradle of civilization from thousands of years ago.
JS’s next set of writings, the D&C, are the product of revelation. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was actually receiving words from God. In fact there is tons of evidence based upon contradiction of scripture that he was not. For instance, polygamy is not allowed by the BoM or the Bible, yet the D&C says it is commanded for exaltation (but now God changed his mind. Sneaky God, stop fooling us you big prankster).
Combine this with false prophecy and the house of cards falls down. Sheer Madness!
Shem,
“You claimed the idea of becoming a god came from Satan and used the Genesis account to support it”
Where did I do that? Maybe you mean this – “It was this same being who convinced the man and the woman to disobey God in the hope of attaining deification”.
However, there I am not affirming that deification is true/possible. Also, I am not affirming that we get Satan’s attempt at elevating humans to godhood from the Genesis account. I do affirm that the idea to disobey God came from Satan (in the Genesis account) and that in the Mormon scheme of things this for deification and that this is seen as good. What I am challenging is this –
“Thus the idea that they could be like God (or gods themselves) was supported by God.”
The part in parenthesis is what I have a problem with. I do think that Lucifer was the first to come up with the deification idea, but we do not get that from Genesis. We get that from Isaiah, and in Isaiah it is seen as very bad. Can you agree with me that ultimate deification is not what is being addressed in Gen 3, at least not by the immediate grammatical context?
When it comes to the Trinity issue I was not ascribing Modalism to Mormons. Shem look at what I wrote in response to pook, and look at what pook wrote. I am addressing the possible belief on his part that traditional Christians believe in Modalism. It looks like you made a mistake.
“I gave the doctrine of the LDS church. This is what is taught.”
I am sure some Mormons believe like you but I have found others who have differing beliefs and they attribute those to official doctrine.
“we choose who our Father will be”
And show me the infant that does that. Most often children are adopted without their say-so. I will let the readers decide if Mormons are being consistent in their ascribing patriarchy to God or Satan.
“The Father is the literal Father of our spirits, and this has been said more than once in the Bible. Christ is not
this Father, but he is still our Father in a spiritual sense through adoption.”
Where does the Bible assert this teaching? I challenge you to show me the verses that do and the pre-apostasy commentaries of the primitive church that support such a view. I would say in a classical theistic sense that God is the father of our spirits but the way I mean it differs greatly than the Mormon notion of it.
“The Adoption is perfectly logical because he is not the literal Father of our spirits”
And this runs rough shod over Romans 8. We are adopted unto the Father, and are heirs with Christ. If we are literal sons of God then how can you explain the servant, bride, and other allusions of the Bible? I maintain that you artificially call the son references literal (except for when its applied to Satan) and not the servant, bride, etc. references.
“By the way, your reference to us being the Physical children of God is completely false, and has never been taught by any leader of the church, or any member on these threads.”
I understand that there are many views on this topic within your church. However, you have way overstated your case here. There have indeed been, and still are, Mormons that believe we are the physical offspring of God the Father. Their belief is as legit as yours and yes many LDS leaders believed it. I will leave it you to determine if their dissemination of such an idea is “official” or “unofficial” teaching.
B. Young – “The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD–was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers.” (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).
James Talmage – “Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh…”
(‘The Articles of Faith p. 466).
RickB,
I know what you mean about dishonesty with Mormon “elders.” I had 2 affirm to me that they believe in the trinity – essentially implying that they shared my beliefs. I then challenged them on this and they affirmed it again. Finally, I said that I could not say that they personally don’t believe in the trinity, but I know for a fact that Mormon theology does not affirm the trinity – so they may believe it, but they’re not being faithful Mormons. They then hedged their answers.
St crispy,
You prove my point exactly. I have posted on my blog a topic called what if, I stated it on here before. Why is it LDS either claim we have the same exact beliefe, thats why you can call yourselves Christians like us, or LDS admit we have different gospels and therefore different beliefs, yet despite having different gospels you still want to be called Christians.
By wanting to be called Christians, people who do not know the differences between what we believe lead them to believe we believe the same thing. Thats dishonest and lying.
So I have stated “What if” I called myself an LDS member, put on and LDS elder badge with my name, went door to door and said I am from the church of Jesus Christ, but then went onto say, I believe in the Bible alone, no other modern prophets like JS, That God is in the trinity, not a 3 person goodhood Etc.
Many LDS cried fowl, saying I cannot do that. So I stated that if LDS are Christians and believe what I do then that in turn makes me and LDS priesthood holder.
Funny thing is, now that the shoe is on the other foot, your crying fowl and wanting it one way but not the other.
You still want to be called a christian, but do not want me to be called a mormon, you cannot have it both ways. I made that point very clear before, so either you missed it, or you saw it but are now lying by leaving out that info for our readers.
I honestly do not recall ever seeing a good answer to why you can teach a different gospel, call yourself a christian and by that imply we believe the same thing, yet why I cannot then call my self a mormon and teach what I believe, can you explain why that is. Rick b
Mobaby,
You state: “Mormon theology does not affirm the trinity”
This is a false accusation. Mormon theology most assuredly affirms the Trinity; that being: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. This is basic LDS doctrine. The fact that you do not know even this simple, basic tenet of Mormonism belies your complete and utter ignorance of the subject of LDS theology.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct individuals who together constitute the Godhead which is the presiding authority of the Kingdom of God.
It is the false sectarian notion of creedal Trinitarianism that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are through some ineffable “mystery” the same “essence” or being. Such a concept is based on the vain philosophies of men (Hellenism) and denies the true nature of deity. Jesus Christ Himself declared that such a creed is “an abomination”.
[Here at Mormon Coffee we should strive for clarity on this important topic. Since words have meaning, we should all make an effort to use the words that would best enable effective communication. LDS.org says this about the Trinity:
In fact, Mormon theology does not affirm the Trinity of traditional Christianity; instead, it affirms what St. Crispin has referred to as the Trinity, but what is more accurately called the Godhead of Mormonism. -Moderator]
RickB,
To start with I refute your claim that you are a Christian. You belief system is based upon a false interpretation of the scriptures infused with Hellenic philosophy and grafted paganism. Your creeds are an abomination in the sight of the Lord.
Your belief system is a complete rejection of Biblical Christianity, its holy ordinances and covenants, and the words of Jesus Christ. Your belief system preaches as false gospel, and a false Jesus. There is no salvation in your counterfeit Christ.
ST. Crispin wrote:Mobaby,
You state: “Mormon theology does not affirm the trinity”
This is a false accusation. Mormon theology most assuredly affirms the Trinity; that being: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. This is basic LDS doctrine. The fact that you do not know even this simple, basic tenet of Mormonism belies your complete and utter ignorance of the subject of LDS theology. (end of quote)
“Complete and utter ignorance…” Stuart, you are exhibiting the most arrogant and dismissive and derogatory and insulting behavior on this blog, in my opinion. Sure, Falcon and Rick B., are confrontative. But I have not seen them be so over the top as you, and their behavior as you perceive it does not justify yours. Disagreement and dialogue, and debate and contentious debate are part of this space. But you go over the top, especially when you respond to those who used to be labeled Mormons. Your perspective is that you disagree. Do it with a little more class. You could have more accurately and with more respect said that Mormon theology does affirm the Trinity as Mormons interpret it. And then gone on.
Hi St. Crispy!
If you believe our evangelical creeds are an abomination, why do you LDS want to call yourself Christians? You are not a Christian. You are an LDS member. There is an obvious distinction. You said it yourself. Please answer the question. Why do LDS call themselves Christians? Don’t you think that could be confusing? Especially if you believe we are teaching two different gospels.
DAVID
I do not have the time today to give a full explanation of the adoption of Christ and how he is our Father. Let me take a little time to get it together and I will post it either toarrow or the next day.
As to Heavenly Father being the Father of our physical bodies, you have given no evidence that anyone believes this except the vague statement that some mombers do. The quote you give speak to Christ, not to all humans. Christ was the literal son of the Father in the Flesh. This is what is meant when it is said he is the only begotten. He is the only one on this Earth whose physical Father is also his spirit Father. The rest of us are born of a mortal father and mother.
I say again, never has it been taught that we are the physical children of God, only that we are his spirit children. Christ is his physical child, which is part of what makes him unique among men, what makes him both man and god. No one else can claim this and no one else has tried.
Set Free,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and for
also rightly describing how unique God really
is as portrayed in the Bible.
When I saw the title of your post I immediately
thought that it would be more descriptive of
LDS belief if it read:
” Do You Really Want To Become an Almighty God?”
Shelli asks: “Why do LDS call themselves Christians?”
The answer is as simple as it is obvious. LDS call ourselves Christian because that is exactly what we are – Christians.
Jesus Christ literally leads the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in person. It is His Church.
However, I cannot honestly say the same of evangelicals given that their belief system is based upon a false interpretation of the scriptures infused with Hellenic philosophy and grafted paganism. Evangelicalism constitutes a rejection of Biblical Christianity, its sacred ordinances and covenants and the words of Jesus Christ. Evangelicals preach a false gospel and worship a false Jesus.
Shelli – you are not a Christian.
Ward,
I marvel at your incredible double standard. In your view it is perfectly fine for an evangelical to mock, demonize and denigrate the LDS Church, its doctrine, leaders and people in the most vicious manner imaginable. However, should a Mormon stand up and refute such false, vile and bigoted accusations using the same polemic you cry foul. I stand all amazed at such hypocrisy!
I never ceased to be amazed by individuals (Falcon, RickB, Randy Andy, Mobaby and others) who clearly do not comprehend even basic LDS doctrine pontificate on what Latter-day Saints believe as if they were General Authorities. The colossal arrogance of these people is only matched by their colossal ignorance.
St Crispin,
The Mormon “Elders” belief in the Trinity is as valid as their title. There are numerous posts here on Mormon Coffee by LDS members disavowing the Trinity – it’s a simple fact, Mormons do not share Christians belief in the One True God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And for missionaries to talk to others and IMPLY that they share Christian’s belief in the Trinity is not being truthful. Mormons should accurately state something like “we believe there are many gods, our planet has chiefly one god – our heavenly Father, in addition to another god, one of the Father’s sons, Jesus Christ, and another god called the Holy Spirit. These gods form the Godhead for our planet, while other gods rule in their own jurisdictions.” This would be far better than trying to claim or at least imply agreement where there is none by affirming that you too believe in the Trinity.
The risen Lord Jesus Christ has never declared the Trinity to be an abomination. Joseph Smith, putting words in the mouth of Jesus Christ in order to lend those words credibility, called all Christian Church doctrines an abomination. I follow Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith, and I don’t consider Joseph Smith’s claimed “revelations” to be accurate or truthful.
Mobaby,
You are inaccurately conflating the term Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost) with the Nicean creed of Trinitarianism. As pointed out by the moderator’s note, the LDS Church affirms the verity of the Trinity (as I have herein defined) which constitutes the Godhead and the presiding authority of the Kingdom of God but rejects the trinitarian notion of a triune god.
What Jesus Christ calls an abomination is the self-contradictory mass of confusion called the Trinitarian creed first promulgated at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
Yo say that you reject the revelations of Joseph Smith, but you also reject the revelations of the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ Himself.
What was pointed out by me (as moderator) is that the LDS Church recognizes and defines “Trinity” differently than St. Crispin does. The LDS Church officially makes a distinction between the Christian Trinity and the LDS Godhead. Stuart, you seem to be confusing the term Trinity (note the capital “T” — defined in a secular dictionary as “the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons”) with “trinity” (“a group of three people or things”).
Stuart – So I am full of hypocrisy because I ask you to behave decently and not be grandiose and all or nothing in your attacks? Wow… Once again, I sit here amazed by you and your attitudes and smugness. You act as though you know all doctrine and all reference works, and everything. And if one of the posters you name above has a different perspective on this, you go all postal on them and accuse them of complete and total ignorance. I don’t see any of them using such all encompassing words. Perhaps your use of those words in your world beats people into silence. Not here. I am speaking directly to you right here and now. Can you own the tone and scope of your own words, and not blame others? This is really off the thread, but in my opinion, you have not been writing in a very nice fashion. You can say all you need to say without this self defeating tone. Quit complaining.
Damn I hate being in another time zone, I miss out on some of the meatier parts of the conversation.
A father is one who gives life. The LDS doctrine is that Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits, thus we can literally call Him father. Jesus Christ paid for our sins by giving His life on the cross. If we believe in Him and His atonement we will gain eternal life. Thus Jesus has GIVEN us ETERNAL LIFE, and is the author of our salvation. In this respect, we can call Him ‘father’ and because His atonement paid for us, we are adopted by Him if we believe in Him. The same goes with the reference of the Devil being father, those who do the Devil’s work and follow his ways are adopted by/choose him to be the father of their post-resurrection life, whether it is in outer darkness/hell with him, or in the Tellestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms without Heavenly Father.
Martin,
Remember that we LDS believe that Heavenly Father and Jesus are separate beings. Heavenly Father sent Jesus to die and pay for our sins. He (Heavenly Father) did not come down Himself to do it. So your premise is wrong.
Andy,
It has already been pointed out but I will say it again. Satan tempted Eve and told her that if she partook of the fruit she would not die, but be as gods knowing good and evil (Gen 3:4-5). After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, God made the comment that they had become “as one of us knowing good and evil” (Gen 3:22). So where was the lie that Satan told? It was that they will not die, because even God said that they had become as gods (NOTE as gods, NOT became gods). They received an ability to determine good from evil after eating the fruit of the tree which is a characteristic that God has.
Ralph,
Would you now answer my earlier question: can you find any old testament verses (or verse) that talk(s) about God the Father (the father of our spirits) as opposed to Jehovah (God the Father of our adoption)?
“Jesus Christ literally leads the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in person. It is His Church”
This is a wrong statement. The LDS Org. is not led by Jesus. The Presidents, and other leaders do not talk to Jesus, they do not hear Jesus’s voice.
When was the last time a Member from the Morg said they had revelation from Jesus?
Christians have been calling themselves Christians a lot longer then the Morg has been. The LDS org. is nothing more then a cheap imitation of scripture mingled with the philosophies of men.
LDS members have never been, will never be, and should not be allowed (IMO) to be called Christians.
The LDS org has one self appointed prophecy, the LDS org. IS the great and spacious building.
Setfree,
From what I understand, in the OT when it talks about God it is usually in reference to Jesus Christ (from the OT institute manual), but there are some references to Heavenly Father. In the Topical Guide online it references 4 OT scriptures referring to Heavenly Father Gen 14:19; Num 16:22; Num 27:16 and Mal 2:10. That’s the best I can do while being at work.
Kevin,
Who said that our present leaders have not received revelation for God? Just because they have come out with nothing that you see as being ‘new’ nor have they said that ‘God told them…” does not mean they have not had any revelations. One of the things that they are doing is fulfilling their prophetic callings – which is to be a witness of Jesus Christ at all times and in all places. That witness they have is from the Holy Ghost, although some members like to argue that they (our leaders) have literally seen Him and are thus eye witnesses – but this line of thought is talked down/discouraged by our leaders. At the moment our leaders are getting us to focus on the basics – ie pray, read the scriptures, inviting the Holy Ghost into our lives, spreading the gospel. All these are necessary for our salvation and the afterlife and are what we should focus on really, not sitting back and trying to gain a greater understanding of deeper doctrine that is not necessary for our salvation.
Heavenly Father will not warn the Prophet of catastrophic events like 9/11, or the tsunami in Indonesia, etc, unless He deems necessary. He gives us free agency and allows evil men to do evil so they can be judged righteously – thus 9/11. He holds the power of life and death and we all have a certain time to die – thus the tsunami. The list can go on. Individuals in/near those cicumstances can get personal revelation that will save them if that is what God wants, but He does not have to warn the Prophet as most here expect Him to.
Ralph,
Boy oh boy am I ever happy to have you answer that. 😛
You said: “From what I understand, in the OT when it talks about God it is usually in reference to Jesus Christ (from the OT institute manual), but there are some references to Heavenly Father. In the Topical Guide online it references 4 OT scriptures referring to Heavenly Father Gen 14:19; Num 16:22; Num 27:16 and Mal 2:10.”
And you understand correctly (also going by the Topical Guide in the LDS Standard Works).
What I want to do now is first, make sure that you know this:
“LORD” in the King James Bible is translated from the Hebrew word from which we get “Jehovah”. In other words, in every place where we see “LORD” (all caps), we could just as well insert “Jehovah”. Check it out:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3068&t=KJV
Now, let’s read a couple of your verses in their context:
Number 16:20-23
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying…
Who are they talking to? Who is talking to them?
THE LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh! Am I sure they are one and the same? YES!! Check this out:
Numbers 27:15,16
And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying, Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation…
Want a friendly concurring verse? How about Isaiah 42:5-8?
“Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein…”
(to be continued)
St. Crispin,
It is wrong to imply agreement where there is none. The Mormon “Elders” knew what they were doing. That is the crux of my argument. It seems that LDS like yourself suddenly take up a defense of the term Trinity when it suits your purposes – generally on Mormon Coffee the LDS writers consistently attack the Holy Trinity as revealed in scripture – the tri-unity of one God in three persons. Those who post here can’t wait to denounce it as wrong, but now you are wanting to take ownership of the term and redefine it. The Mormon missionaries I spoke with were eager to drop the subject of the nature of God and move on to Joseph Smith, so they implied agreement. I had to really press them to finally admit that their gods and their beliefs regarding the nature of the Godhead is actually quite different from the one true God revealed in Holy Scripture (I read scriptures from Isaiah where God reveals He is the only God, there are NO others, God does not even know of any other gods). I think it is a tactic the Mormon missionaries learn to move away from controversial teachings and on to what they really want to talk about – the person they follow, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
They left the house quite angry after I disagreed that prayer followed by a personal confirmation is the best way to determine if something is true. In reality, you must search the scriptures and test all things to see if they are true. I moved on to the fact that God can speak to us in many ways (primarily through his revealed scripture, but God also uses people to teach and preach His Word to us), and what if the answer to your prayer was not a feeling, but rather the conversation we are having today where I am telling you Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
continued
Okay, what about Genesis 14:19? “And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth”
Here we see “Elohim” being called the Most High God (the possessor of heaven and earth).
But wait…
Read on down a little, and pick up Genesis 14:22:
“And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth…”
Some friendly concurring verses:
Psalm 83:18: “That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.”
Psalm 92:8: “But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.”
I know you may be tempted to say, “oh, that just means he is the most high over all the earth.” But look again that the verse YOU GAVE ME said that the MOST HIGH was possessor of heaven and earth, as did the verse is gave you, which said the LORD was the Most High, possessor of heaven and earth…
One more…
Malachi 2:10. In verses 1-9, Malachi is quoting the LORD. In verse 10, Malachi turns and personally talks to his Israelite brothers for three verses.
See what he says? “Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.”
This is definitely not Jehovah (The LORD) talking.
So… what do you think?
Care to try to find other verses that are supposedly talking about Elohim verses Jehovah?
Let me give you a little clue in… (there aren’t any!)
Praying for you…
Ralph,
So there is nothing new? No new revelation? Really?
I thought everything in General Conference (GC) was considered revelation. GC is where your leaders warn the members of temporal temptations, correct? In doing so your president has given warnings regarding to many earring and watching rater R movies to mention a few. I use these examples, but not inclusive, just examples. I believe most members think these warnings came from God himself, although no were in the talk was credit given to God. If everything in GC is not from God, then at best, your prophets are mere stewards of the position.
So if I must distinguish between what is of God and what is of a Ol` crazy man and his stories, by praying about it, then trusting my feelings, then every member could potentially come up with there own interpitation regarding the talk. So will claim revelation, some may not, but in general I tend to believe most member see GC as revelation.
So yes, new things do come out in your religion.
I’d like to answer this question.
“Who said that our present leaders have not received revelation for God?”
First, it was me who said it, and because I said it, it is so. 🙂
Second,
Omission of credit and plausible deniablity. It is LDS policy to NEVER give credit to the Lord, let the members assume what they will. I assume they are worried of rouge prophecies, they are human after all. Also, if it works out, it’s of god, if it don’t work out, it was opinion. Do you remember my forecasting prophecy?
Because they are human, this could be the reason why the current leadership is deemphasizing fundamental teachings, as we have been discussing here on MC of the last month. Some of the early presidents loved to talk at the pulpit, and yes some did say this is of god, especially Brigham.
Mormons,
Is Gen 3:4-5, 22 you’re proof-text for the LDS “make-a-god” program a.k.a. doctrine of exaltation? If so, the beginning roots of it are on shaky ground. First, who is talking in verses 4-5? Satan! That should be warning enough. Can you or anyone believe anything he says? He is called the “father of lies” and “deceiver” for good reason. If Eve would have only listened to God instead…oh well. I know in Mormonism you are taught to give praise and recognition for what Adam and Eve did – the opposite of Christianity.
Satan told them that they would not die. Did they? Yes, on both counts: spiritually and physically. They were separated from God and driven out of Eden. They were cursed. They also now took on a sin nature and mortality in the physical which lead to death. Did Adam and Eve become gods? No. Did they now gain knowledge of something they knew nothing about before hand? Yes – good and evil: “eyes were opened” (Gen 3:7). Satan told them the word “evil” in verse 4. They didn’t even know what that word meant. It was further temptation. It’s still the temptation today among mankind and that is to have knowledge and power, thus the rise of the occult.
Gen 3:22 – Man now had a knowledge of good and evil now which before the Fall only God knew about because Satan and the fallen angels had already rebelled and been given the heavenly “boot”. Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Did they live forever? No. They were duped by Satan. His lie was to have them believe that the way to obtain knowledge was to not believe what God had said. Satan wanted God to appear to be jealous and not good.
The LDS view doesn’t wash with the overwhelming amount of God’s words that say that you won’t be a god or God. SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE. This proves your view on the above texts are incorrect. If you don’t like the KJV of Isaiah 44:8, then look at the Joseph Smith Translation:
Isaiah 44:8 (JST) – “Is there a God besides me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.”
Kevin,
I never said there was no new revelation. I said “Just because they have come out with nothing that you see as being ‘new’ nor have they said that ‘God told them…” does not mean they have not had any revelations.” Note what I emphasised here – it is your perspective that they have come out with nothing new, not mine. Please do not put words into my mouth.
Andy,
No one has said that we are using Genesis as our proof that we can become gods. We are showing you that you are interpreting it incorrectly. Satan told Adam and Eve 2 things – 1 They will not die and 2 they will become as gods, knowing good and evil – NOT that they will become gods. We find that after they partook of the fruit God Himself said that they had become as gods knowing good and evil, which agrees with what Satan said. So where did Satan lie? When he said that they would not die.
Can you show me where in the Bible it supports your statement that God told Adam and Eve that there was another way to gain knowledge of good and evil apart from eating from that tree? At least that is what I believe you are implying when you said that “His lie was to have them believe that the way to obtain knowledge was to not believe what God had said.” As far as I cen find, God told them to go forth multiply and replenish the earth, that they were married, to eat of all the fruit in the garden except from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was in the middle of the garden. There is nothing in there about how to gain knowledge.
And Adam and Eve had heard the word/term ‘evil’ before Satan mentioned it to them. It’s found in Gen 2:9, where God forbids them from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it was God who mentioned the word, thus according to your logic, God was the one that gave them that temptation.
Shelli,
You said the following:
“You are not a Christian. You are an LDS member. There is an obvious distinction.”
I don’t see such an obvious distinction. Culturally mormons have much in common with other christians, along with other ‘cults’ like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, 7thday adventists, Worldwide church of god etc… I would classify fundementalist christianity as a cult, if mormons could be called a cult.
Catholics, lutherans, methodists, baptists…etc…even non-demonminational christians meeting at peoples homes do have an essential ‘something’ which is in common, its difficult to place exactly. Perhaps I will have to think more about it.
All highly praise ‘jesus’, think highly of the bible, and look forward to salvation. Although the exact nature of each is slightly different. Most observe some type of ‘the lords supper’ and do rituals with water. Culturally they are all quite similiar. They all pray, and usually use the name of JVH or or Jesus.
Setfree,
I knew you were going to go into what you did, but you have asked that original question half a dozen times to the general LDS, so I just gave you an answer. As for you next load of questions, I don’t know what the OT writers had in mind, but if you are trying to get to the Trinity, I will give you the same remark given to LDS about henotheism/polytheism – look at the Jews who wrote the OT. Did they/do they believe in a Trinity? No they don’t. So therefore it (the Trinity) cannot be Biblical, or at least cannot be an OT belief. Otherwise the Jews would have something similar in their belief, whether a discarded belief from centuries ago or a small splinter sect may have kept it going. But there is nothing in their history about a Trinity. So you can’t use that one here for the OT, unless you want to allow us LDS some credence for our belief in henotheism/polytheism.
Besides it was liv4jc who said that Abraham was originally a pagan idolater mentioning the many idols/gods that God called him away from (22-8-09 Mormon Church Showcases Statement, “The Church does not stand or fall on the Book of Abraham”). So this indicates that the early Hebrews (ie ancestors to the Israelites and current Jews) were polytheists to begin with. Is the God now worshiped from the Bible (ie all the Judeo-Christian sects) a chosen one from this beginning pantheon?
Ralph & Setfree,
Ralph comments are pretty fair concerning jewish belief. Christian belief is rejected by jews for a number of reasons. One is the trinity, jews are strictly monotheistic, and from what I understand they have a difficult time seeing god as a human, even if it is a jew.
The modification or rejection of kosher is another problem. Also the addition of pagan holidays such as Easter, Holloween and Christmas. These are somewhat modified, mostly by giving them christian verbage and a slight christian twist, but the character of these holidays are essentially pagan.
The concept of ‘hell’ is vastly different. I spoke to a jew about these things, and I don’t recall the exact answer, but she basically said she didn’t believe in the christian hell, that it didn’t sound anything at all like what is in the torah.
The name ‘jesus’ itself has its problems, some hear the name as sounding like ‘may his name be blotted out’. Some christians have responded that it was a word play indicating the jewish desire to ‘blot out’ the name of the true messiah. But, there is something more essential to the name which is problematic.
There is a jewish conspiracy theory that Christianity is a jewish construction designed to ‘blot out’ all knowledge of gentile religion, spirituality and culture. Collectively ‘paganism’ is represented by ‘satan’. Although the original name/name(s)of the head gods were Vishnu, jupiter etc…now called ‘satan’ in the Bible. The trinity is an essential belief in many gentile religions. The cross appears in a number of these religions. The death and resurrection of a god appears in 15-20 gentile religions. These are now substituted by ‘jesus’ an ideal prototype representing the jewish people. So according to the theory, its a sort of trick to get gentiles to serve and worship the jewish people, and removing knowledge of their own cultural and spiritual roots. I think the average jew would honestly know nothing about this and deny it.
Ralph and Enki,
First Ralph. I wasn’t trying to confront you personally. I’ve asked the same question to several people because what I’m really doing is confronting Joseph Smith/The LDS church.
You accused me of “trying to get to the Trinity”. The truth is, I’m not trying to do that. The truth is that the LDS church/Joseph Smith is trying to break APART Jehovah and Elohim.
Both you and Enki are correct, from what I know. The (non-Messianic) Jews are monotheistic and don’t like the Trinity concept. They have also shown polytheism in their history. Why else, in the Bible, would Jehovah (God) have spent so much time chastising them for going after other gods? (If you don’t know that He does that, start reading your Bible again and see how often it comes up.)
The thing is, elohim is the hebrew word for God and/or gods. When you see “LORD God” in the Bible, you can usually replace it with the words Jehovah elohim. Elohim is not the name of a separate god from Jehovah. In fact, when you see the phrase “other gods”, it is other elohim. Joseph Smith tried to separate from “elohim”, but it can’t be done! Jehovah is God.
So, if you don’t like the idea of a God who is comprised of three entities, really your problem lies, like the Jews, with Jesus.
The LDS believe that Jehovah is Jesus, and Elohim is a separate God. This is how they/Joseph Smith takes care of that whole “trinity” problem. The Jews did it by not accepting Jesus.
I didn’t write the Bible, Ralph, and I didn’t write the OT manual or the Topical Guide. All I did was to reveal to you that the verses given by Joseph Smith/The LDS Church to support the idea of Elohim being separate from Jehovah, at further look, do not.
I believe I ran across, in the History of the Church, where it shows that the idea of the “Most High” God being ‘the Father’ was Sidney Rigdon’s. I will go back and look, and see if I can find it again, and get back to you.
Setfree,
I know you were not making a personal attack on me, I was just saying that I answered your question because I know you have asked it a number of times from the LDS on this site. As far as my comments about the you going to jump in with the Trinity, I am sorry for jumping to conclusions, to me, logically that would have been the next step, so I just went ahead and put in a defense first.
I have read the institute manual about Jehovah (YHWH) and Elohiem and how Jesus is the God of the OT and it makes sense to me. I have no problems with it.
Ralph,
You asked, “Where did Satan lie?” Answer: everywhere and all the time. I wasn’t implying that God was giving alternatives for gaining knowledge outside of eating the fruit. Adam and Eve at the fruit. They now knew what evil was because they had sinned against God by believing the lie of Satan which was “ye shall be as gods”. Adam and Eve didn’t know what evil was until after they had disobeyed God and ate of the fruit. Ralph, you can’t get the LDS “god program” out of this text or anywhere else. You and the LDS Church can spin this anyway you want. God has said clearly over and over especially throughout Isaiah that no person is going to make it to Deity. My biggest problem with the Mormons on their slant of this text in Genesis is this:
“…in the Book of Mormon…the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin…What did Adam do? THE VERY THING THE LORD WANTED HIM TO DO; THE DEVIL in tempting Eve TOLD A TRUTH when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that…For his service WE OWE ADAM and immeasurable debt of GRATITUDE. Did they [Adam and Eve] come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. THE LORD KNEW THEY SHOULD DO THIS, AND HE HAD DESIGNED THAT THEY SHOULD. When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; IT WAS A BLESSING.” (Doctrines of the Gospel, pp.20-21)
What!? The Lord wanted Adam and Eve to sin? He designed that they should disobey? The Lord has some “backroom deal” with Adam and Eve in the Mormon preexistence on what they should do here in the Garden, but the Mormon lord states it official otherwise? The devil told the truth? You owe Adam and Eve gratitude? THIS IS PERVERTED THEOLOGY.
Ralph,
In keeping in line with the title of this post,
(Do You Really Want to Become a god) you
mentioned a week ago or so that you would one
day as a god be “creating worlds” etc.
I understand this to be LDS belief. I notice
in LDS teaching that worthy LDS males like
yourself can eventually become not just a god,
but the Almighty God over your kingdoms and
worlds etc.
I realize that you probably don’t think a
great deal about it but is this your
aspiration?
Shem,
Yes, off course we are not the physical offspring of God in this world (although you have admitted Christ is). In the pre-existence we are given a tabernacle, even a birth if you will, and that came about from our Heavenly Father. He brought into existence (somehow) our spirit bodies, which are really bodies as they are material (D&C 131:7&8). Our Heavenly Father has wives, he also has man parts. I would not be the first to suggest that these spirit babies came about through sex.
I am fully aware that the above is not “official” teaching. However, are you suggesting that there are no Mormons who hold this view or one like it? We do know that some Mormons (it seems like you are one of these) believe that God had physical relations with Mary. That would mean he had sex as a god. And if you maintain the argument that Christ is the only physical son of the father, because the word “begotten” is used, then you have to deal with D&C 76:24 – “That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.”
I am fully aware that there are divergent Mormon views on this, just as there are on the issue of God having sex with Mary. However – Shem I was not trying to give a rundown on official LDS doctrine in my post to pook. I was giving the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and in doing that I was contrasting that belief/doctrine with other views that are out there in order make my point. There is no mandate that I have to contrast it against an “official” position to make my point. In light of things Mormon leaders have said about Mormon cosmology, I do think the idea of Elohim having sex with his wives, and having “spirit” children by those wives, is the most consistent position. I know the how’s, why’s and even the “if” of this has not been flushed out in Mormondom but it does not have to be.
St. C,
I guess the old adage is true – if you fight something long enough you begin to look like it. At Mormon Coffee you have affirmed the Trinity, at least the word. You have affirmed that theology matters in ascribing the term “Christian”. Indeed, Mormonism has come full circle – at least for you. It went from being the only true church ( true Christianity if you will) to being one of several churches and denominations (we are Christian too), back to being the only way (you are not a Christian).
You are not alone in this. I have seen one Mormon poster here accuse Christians of emotionalism – something we have been accusing you guys of for decades. Be careful when you try to put the shoe on the other foot as you just might find out that the other foot is yours.
P.S. It was one of our bishops, you know the guys who were have supposed to ushered in the great apostasy, that coined the term “trinitas” – Trinity J
All,
I could not resist to cite some choice quotes from Mormon apologist Blake Ostler on this matter. His quotes come from: http://www.newcooolthang.com
The title of the post is “Yes, God the Father does have a Father“ –
http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/05/the-father-has-a-father/253/#comments
I think I get now why so many Christian[s] regard Mormons as not merely heretic[s] but also lunatics. – #48
Frankly, I regard those who hold views such as there are many Head Gods and many Saviors to be non-Christian in the sense that it is contrary to scripture and to Jesus’s teachings. Like a said, some views are not mere heretical, but also lunatical as well.
– #66
Jeff, your view is indeed generic henotheism. My view is monoarchical monotheism. One view is scriptural and consistent with the entire history of revelation; the other is not (in fact, that is what my entire third volume is arguing). What I want to impress is that these beliefs have consequences. This is not a game of doctrinal ping pong where just anything is up for grabs. – #74
Enki said
Enki, I think you need to study mormonism more and read what we and the LDS here say better.
LDS believe and teach they can become gods and their are millions of gods. Christians deny this.
LDS DENY the Trinity, Christians do not. LDS teach Lucifer is their brother and a brother to Jesus, Christians do not. LDS do not trust the Bible and believe it is filled with error, Christians do not believe this, so your way off and better study up.
Enki said
As I pointed out, this is not true, and Even Paul in Gal1:8-9 said if anyone even an angel teaches a different Gospel than the one I teach, let them be accursed. Jason Rae and St Crispy have both made it very clear, we have different Gospel and the gospel I believe in is an abomination in Gods sight.
I believe it is the other way around, but still according to those 2 LDS, Your wrong.
Enki said
I pointed this out also, I said if we get past the names and dig deeper into who were talking about, then were not talking about the same person, Other LDS and Christian have stated this also. That was why I said LDS mm’s are being Dishonest by not telling us what they believe and simply saying We agree with what you believe.
I’ve told people before, Get your facts correct on what lies behind the names, then invite LDS mm’s into your house, play stupid and tell them that you believe in the Bible alone and everything us Christians , Cont
Cont,
Tell them you believe like we believe and then call BS one them and point out they just lied, because you know they do not believe what we believe, you will be rather surprised at the amout of LDS mm’s who lie, then claim they were not lying, but cannot explain why they said, WE agree with everything you just said.
But then when you point out what their teaching say, and show a different Gospel, they will claim, Contention is of the devil and want to leave. I have seen it happen more times than I can count. I know your not a Christian Enki, but give it a try, it will be an eye opener. Rick b
Ok, I’ve had about as much as I can take with the Genesis 3:22 proof-texting that God was trying to keep Adam and Eve from becoming gods by denying them the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The fall of Adam was a bad thing. It was not for good and it was not to allow eventual godhood. Let’s back up to the creation account and Genesis 2:8,9.
“The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
So we see we have two special trees amongst all of the rest. One is a tree that gives life when its fruit is eaten, one gives knowledge of good and evil. Whether or not the fruit of these trees actually had these properties is up for debate. We will see that they were used as a test in verses 15-17.
In Genesis 2:15-17 we then read:
“Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
This is a covenant between God and Adam. it also tests Adam’s obedience to the rules of the covenant. Adam is allowed to eat from every tree in the Garden, including the Tree of Life. He is not allowed to eat from the Tree of Knowldge of Good and Evil. If he obeys God’s command the covenant is intact and he gets to keep the garden and live in it forever. This is good. If he disobeys he dies. This is bad.
(Genesis 2 and 3 exegesis cont.)
Next, we see God creating Eve out of Adam. Adam being the head would have been responsible for telling Eve the rules of the covenant. We know he did this because she quotes the covenant rules to Satan Genesis 3:2,3. Satan’s lie to tempt Eve was exactly what LDS theology teaches. Adam and Eve would not die if they ate the fruit, that was a lie told to them by God to keep them from becoming like Him by knowing good from evil. Once they knew this they could become gods. The first lie told to man.
Genesis 3:4-13 (paraphrased to save space) then tells us that Eve ate the fruit and gave some to Adam and he also ate. Adam had heard directly from God and knew he was not supposed to do this. He did not believe God and he was not obedient. Immediately their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked. Being ashamed they cover themselves with fig leaves.
Next they hear the sound of God walking in the Garden so they hide. When questioned by God about why they are hiding they tell Him it is because they are naked. God asks if they have broken His command to not eat of the tree. Adam makes a lame excuse blaming it on Eve, and Eve admits that the serpent deceived her.
God knew they had broken His covenant because they understood they had sinned and were hiding. The Tree was actually a test of obedience, and they failed. So did the tree actually possess knowledge of good and evil? Is being naked evil? No. Adam and Eve had fallen and sin now reigned in them. Maybe they began to have sinful thoughts and that is why they realized their nakedness.
Next, God pronounces curses upon them for their disobedience, but he also shows mercy because in Genesis 3:22-23 he says, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, eat, and live forever (in this sinful state. parenthesis mine)- therefore YHWH elohim sent him out of the Garden of Eden…”