The more interesting question is whether we Mormons believe that Father ever sinned. I do not believe that question to have been answered. We tend to believe, with Lorenzo Snow, that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” That aspiration seems to be consistent with John 1: 12 and 17: 21 – 23.
If we can become “as God is” despite our current sinfulness, I see no horror in the possibliity that Father may (before He become God) have sinned, repented, and been redeemed,.
A refreshingly honest Mormon left the following comment on the video:
The more interesting question is whether we Mormons believe that Father ever sinned. I do not believe that question to have been answered. We tend to believe, with Lorenzo Snow, that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” That aspiration seems to be consistent with John 1: 12 and 17: 21 – 23.
If we can become “as God is” despite our current sinfulness, I see no horror in the possibliity that Father may (before He become God) have sinned, repented, and been redeemed,.
It’s nice to find an honest Mormon like this. It’s especially refreshing when so many LDS internet-defenders deceptively insist that the exclusive position of Mormonism is that God never sinned.
MICHEAL
Grace acts both before and after all we can do. First is the knowledge of God, which is given by his grace. Then comes the opportunity to follow God, which also comes by his Grace. Then comes a small messure of power to act on that opportunity. After this we must act (which is all we can do).
Example: At first the power is given us to believe, to have faith and be baptized. If we are never baptized we will receive no more power. If we are baptized he then gives us the power to receive the Holy Ghost. Once we have chosen to receive this he gives us power to act in our personal lives on a general basis (like being more polite). We act on that power and he gives us power to be more generous in our giving, which we act on, and gain power to be more chaste in our thoughts, and so on. We are not given all power instantly, but given here a little and there a little.
LIV4JC
Did you even pay attention to what I said? Do you have any idea what the LDS teach?
Yes, Adam is a spirit child of the Great Eloheim, and besides Christ there is none great than Adam. He was part of the great counsels in heaven and took part in the creation of this world. It was because he had progressed so far that he was chosen, and privilaged with the calling of being the first man on this Earth, to open the way for all of us to be born and have the chance to progress.
The Fall was a great event that all the righteous hosts of Heaven celebrated, for without it we would still be spirits, unable to progress to godhood. Adam, the Ancient of Days, holds all the keys pertaining to all dispensations of this Earth, and he will sit in grand counsel at Adam-ondi-amen in the last days to deliver those keys to Christ.
As to the rest of what you say, it amount to little more than drival and is unworthy of any response.
Shem, thank you for clarifying that, because that is not what you laid out in the post above, and no, I don’t know what the LDS teach because I can never get a straight answer. I now know what you teach, but every LDS I speak to has a different take on the whole Adam/God thing. Haven’t some of your most recent prophets denied that the Adam/God doctrine was ever taught? I can read the English language, and I’m pretty sure you are distorting the message that BY was conveying: that Adam, the first man, was our god. I also know that Adam-ondi-aman is supposedly in Missouri , which is a lot farther away from the headwaters of the Euphrates river, where the Garden of Eden was, than Ur of the Chaldeans is from Egypt.
I also know another thing for certain. The information comes from many different sources. Some of it comes from the D&C, some from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, some of it comes from the Journal of Discourses and some of it, I’m sure is just taught as an understanding of a combination of the above resources. None of it however, is taught in the BoM, which is supposed to contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel. Neither can you prove any evidence for the above doctrines from the Bible.
The Adam/God passages are presented in the JOD, so why is it that sometimes statements made in the JoD, like blood atonement, which BY also taught, are sluffed off as not being scripture or, fabrications by enemies of the church, but other teachings are presented as accurate ?
My head still hurts.
Shem, here we go on the circle again, because now you have introduced another term: grace. What does “grace” mean to you? Does it mean salvation? Because grace to us is part and parcel with salvation. Or does it mean to you something more like an opportunity to do something?
Now, I may have used it above, but it you use it in a different way. The way you use it suggests its kind of like winning points based on what we do– the more we do, the more grace we get. And if we don’t act, we don’t get more. I can’t help but imagine a place like Chucky Cheeses where the more points you get in a game, the more tickets you get. And with more tickets, you get a bigger prize at the end. Should I start using that as an anaology, because it certainly fits with what you just described? If you believe, you are given a bit of grace, and then with that grace, you have to act, and you keep on getting more grace with the more you act until you win the big prize, just like playing games at Chucky Cheese leads to the big prize.
Contrast this with what I said,– faith gives us all we need, and no matter how much we work, we don’t get any more faith or salvation or grace or mercy. Everything we need comes in that first moment to guarantee our future in Christ. If there is anything in doubt to those whom I suggested it is they may not believe is if they even had a starting point, ie never really believed from the beginning. To use an analogy, believing gets you the big prize. Kind of like a door prize, much bigger of course, where it comes with the price of admission. And the price, if you are curious, is not very expensive and very simple. Simply believe in what Jesus is and what he can do for you and you get to spend eternity with him!
Sound too good to be true? Its not. It really is that easy.
So, while you THINK we are saying the same thing, we really are not. Yes, they share some similar ideas, but what is beneath those ideas is something very different
It’s been a heated week. I’m closing down these threads so I can not worry about them over the weekend. Have a great weekend guys. Let’s take a break!
Sharon’s posts are coming up today and this week, and she’s much sweeter than I am 🙂