The more interesting question is whether we Mormons believe that Father ever sinned. I do not believe that question to have been answered. We tend to believe, with Lorenzo Snow, that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” That aspiration seems to be consistent with John 1: 12 and 17: 21 – 23.
If we can become “as God is” despite our current sinfulness, I see no horror in the possibliity that Father may (before He become God) have sinned, repented, and been redeemed,.
A refreshingly honest Mormon left the following comment on the video:
The more interesting question is whether we Mormons believe that Father ever sinned. I do not believe that question to have been answered. We tend to believe, with Lorenzo Snow, that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” That aspiration seems to be consistent with John 1: 12 and 17: 21 – 23.
If we can become “as God is” despite our current sinfulness, I see no horror in the possibliity that Father may (before He become God) have sinned, repented, and been redeemed,.
It’s nice to find an honest Mormon like this. It’s especially refreshing when so many LDS internet-defenders deceptively insist that the exclusive position of Mormonism is that God never sinned.
Let’s be straight about this for our Mormon readers. If you want eternal life you need to reject the false god of Mormonism and turn to the living God. The god Mormons claim, is a sinful man that has no more power to save you than a rock with a smile face painted on it. In fact, that’s pretty much what Mormons worship; a stone cold idol with a happy expression. God reveals Himself clearly in His Word, the Bible. See if you can find the glorified man within the pages of God’s Word? It doesn’t exist. Yes I said (it) because the Mormon god is not a being, neither human or spirit. That is unless you count the demonic spirits Joseph Smith the occultist cavorted with.
shematwater wrote “Yes, I know the answer, but the Mysteries of Heaven are to be reserved for the faithful, revealed to them through the Holy Spirt. As much as people want to hate Paul’s teaching methods, these things are the toughest meat of the Gospel, and thus are not to be shared with those who are not weened from the milk.”
Shem,
Thankyou so much for sharing your gospel with us (and the rest of the world).
I wonder, when Jesus explained his gospel (not your gospel) to the Samaritan woman at the well, was she a fully initiated member of your “church of the firstborn”? (John 4). What about the mandate to preach to every creature under heaven (Col 1:23)?
Maybe God got it wrong when He presented the fullness of the living Gospel, in His Son, to the watching world? (John 1:9 etc).
You have hidden your light under a bath-tub. You have camouflaged the city on the hill. You are salt without any useable saltiness in it (Matt 5:13-15). You have dammed the river of life that springs from the throne of God Himself, so that it can’t reach the nations and heal them (see Ezekiel 47 and Rev 22:1-3).
You have access to deep secrets indeed (Rev 2:24).
You want authority? The one who has ultimate authority will come to you and smash you like an iron bar smashes a clay pot (Rev 2:27).
Falcon,
I never said that that is how you believe, I just said that that is the underlying doctrine of your belief in what is salvation.
But let’s look at some examples – Pookachamp from a few blogs ago said that he grew up in a Christian church and that that was his understanding of that doctrine. I know a other Christians (ie friends and acquaintences) that believe the same thing. Even some Christian churches are now practising the same by ordaining homosexual priests and accepting homosexual marriages. It’s the faith in Jesus that is important – is their teachings. They believe that they are saved by their faith in Jesus despite their works, and they live by their faith. So why don’t you clean out your own home before starting with the LDS?
I also wrote my last post the way I did to show you an argument that you and others tend to use to prove the LDS church wrong. By describing a belief we have and then saying that the logical and underlying doctrine is … – even though you know that is not what is taught or believed. Well, if we are saved despite our works then the logical and underlying doctrine is that once one professes faith in Jesus and is saved, then one has a free pass to do whatever they want. And that is what some people believe and how they act in the Christian community.
Falcon,
I admit you try, but methinks you do just the opposite, and most likely scare them right into the arms of the Missionaries. 🙂
Explaining the Triune God is more complicated then telling them what the scriptures actually say. Oh, well you got the Creeds to deal with, and LDS have more additional scriptures, light and knowledge, interesting right?
“Trinity” is a term that is not found in the Bible but a word used to describe what is apparent about God in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit…and also clearly presents that there is only one God. Thus the term: “Tri” meaning three, and “Unity” meaning one, Tri Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three “Persons” who have the same essence of deity.”
We should not think that each Person is “one-third” of God, that God’s being is divided into three parts. Rather, each Person is fully God. God’s essence is undivided. The being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God, for each Person completely shares the same essence. “When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone. The Father is all of God’s being. The Son is all of God’s being. And the Holy Spirit is all of God’s being” (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 252).
What in the world does that mean. No wonder you have to send them to some University to get a degree in theology, who in the world could have come up with this blunder other then good old man. Hmmm. No thanks, I will take the more easy and simpler explanation, God the Father, God the Son, (literal Son), and God the Holy Ghost.
Teachings About the Godhead
“Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).” Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Ralph,
You’re right that many (people, churches) claim Christianity, and act however they want. It’s too bad, because it’s not right. Christianity, as we know, is an overused, misused label. Even Mormons claim it. 😉
(We have made the case (at least I have, several times) that people are not “saved”, or “true Christians” based on their membership in a religious organization. That’s another worn-out argument)
On the other hand, there are real Christians I know who are having a hard time cleaning up their act. But I don’t know any (real Christians) who have gone on shooting spree to prove how forgiven they are.
It often takes a long time, and a long hard road, for God to work the sin out of the forgiven sinner. But He is on the job from the moment the soul is saved:
“to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi…I thank my God upon every remembrance of you… Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ”
There is an important point to this discussion, that I can’t leave without making clear.
In Christianity, your justification, your salvation, your sanctification… it’s a work God is doing in you. Not a work you are doing. Your work is to believe Him.
And your mediator, in Christianity, the one who gets to say if you’re worthy, if you’re doing enough… the One who works with you to keep you on the right path, or get you back on the path, IS GOD (Jesus/Holy Spirit).
No church, no bishop, no stake president, no man in a suit is the person who can tell if you are “good”, or help you if you’re not. It’s all God’s doing. He is your personal help.
And He does a perfect job.
Ralph and Shem, you asserted that I took the LDS.org quotes about the atonement and repentance out of context and used them without understanding. I did no such thing. I meant what I said, and setfree pointed it out by quoting from LDS.org my exact point:
You import the idea from Philippians 2:12,
And probably James 2:20 as well.
You neglect the next verse, Philippians 2:13,
This is speaking about sanctification which is the process of the Holy Spirit working in the life of a believer, who has repented and believed, to conform them to the image of Christ. It is not our own will alone that allows us to produce spiritual fruit worthy of repentance (Matthew 2:8, John 15:5, Galatians 5:22-23), but it is God (A Trinitarian verse in light of John 15:5 and Galatians 5:22-23) who works in us to will and to do.
You believe falsely that repentance is synonymous with sanctification. You believe that what Christians might call ultimate sanctification (whereby through the working of the Holy Spirit a person would actually cease to sin, which is not possible in this life) is the end result of repentance by your own works (keeping the law), which eventually leads to actual righteousness, which is contrary to the Biblical teaching of positional righteousness (being seen as Holy by the covering of Christ’s blood).
(cont)But what does Paul say in Philippians 3? After giving a whole list of his fleshly qualifications in Philippians 3:1-6, he goes on to proclaim in Philippians 3:7-9,
So again, I stand by my assertion the LDS doctrine of the Atonement only makes repentance (your definition) possible, not effectual. You say that Christ paid for your sins, but when we look at the parable of the creditor and the debtor (I know many of you don’t like when people refer to Spencer Kimble), which expresses LDS atonement theology, we find that Christ actually paid your debt for you, but now you owe Christ. You are still liable to keep all of the commandments that you formerly could not keep, but you owe the debt for failing to Jesus and not Heavenly Father. Your debt is not truly forgiven.
You LDS like to quote James Chapter 2 because this doctrine has been hammered into your heads. If you actually read James from beginning to end instead of proof-texting you will understand that it is speaking of works resulting from faith and salvation and not work resulting in salvation.
If you believe that James is speaking of salvation producing works I expect all of you to start giving to the poor so that they will be warm and filled, become prostitutes and hide spies from Israel, and take your promised son to a mountain and intend to sacrifice him.
HankSaint on September 9th, 2009
Said “Explaining the Triune God is more complicated then telling them what the scriptures actually say.”
Hank, most people I’ve met are 3 in 1, spirit, body, and soul. You and Ralph might be the exception. Granted Triune God is a conceptual b-itch for most (some more than others). Any mortal who professes a knowledge or full understanding of the nature of God is delusional. Finite minds can’t even hope to approximate an understanding of the infinite. Oh wait he’s a body of flesh and blood living on or near a planet called Kolb.
Let’s all get out our crayons and our coloring books now. Dude WAKE UP.
Over and out….
Hmm…
I’m having second thoughts about my tirade to Shematwater.
I should have concluded with this;
You are the wicked, lazy servant who buried his talent in the ground, where no-one could see it or find it (Matt 25:25-26). See where this will get you (Matt 25:30).
ENKI
I do not believe this was a figurative telling. I believe it was litteral, and that the tree of Knowledge quite literally altered the body of Adam and Eve. After the Fall, at some point which we do not fully know, the Garden of Eden was removed from the Earth. But it did exist, and it will exist again.
Now, to the rest.
First, if you are going to claim that personal works can do nothing for you, than you have to also say they can do nothing against you. In other words, if all my good deeds go unrewarded than all my evil deeds must go unpunished. This is what is called Justice, and God cannot be unjust. Now, you can claim that the reward for good deeds are something different than salvation, which is fine. I have had people tell me about the “crowns” that will be awarded the truly righteous in heaven. But even with this, is entrance into the Kingdom of God is in no way effected by your good works, than it cannot be effected by your evil works. Thus, to say that the evil loose salvation based on their works, but the good receive it based on nothing is illogical and unjust.
This is what Ralph is speaking about when he speak of the underlying doctrine. The logic of what you say is this. If you are going to profess that our works are important to our salvation than you are denying the basic idea of Salvation by Grace alone. However, if you are going to hold to this doctrine of Salvation by Grace alone, than it is salvation inspite of your works. In truth, those who are mentioned by Ralph as believing this are more honest in their belief than those who try to deny it.
Of course there are those who try to deny it because the Bible denies it and they know it. But they still try to hold to the basic doctrine, and thus they are in a contradiction.
To all thow who are ignorant of the workings of the methods of God I will give a brief explanation as to why I will not answer some questions.
As we all should know, Christ did not teach the Gospel, or at least not the mysteries of the Gospel, to everyone. In is recorded in Matthew 13: 10-11 that “the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”
I am not blessed with a gift for parables, especially in addressing topics that are not taught directly. As I do not have this ability, I simply refrain from teaching it.
The mysteries, as demonstrated by this quote, are reserved for the faithful righteous saints, and only they are given the privilage are knowing them. (see also Mark 4: 11-12, and Luke 8: 9-10)
This is reafirmed in the D&C section 76, verses 5-7, where it is stated that the righteous who seek after God will have the mysteries revealed to them. This is also stated in D&C 63: 23.
Now, in D&C 71: 1 we see a command to preach the mysteries, but only according to the portion of spirit which the preacher has. Thus, as I do not have the authority (or the portion of spirit required) to teach these things, I will refrain from doing so.
I do nothing in my methods that Christ did not do in his, reserving the mysteries for the faithful. I follow the counsel and commands of God not to teach that which I have no authority to teach.
If you do not like this ask God for the answers, as he gives to all men liberally. But be patient, for he teaches Line upon line, and precept upon precept. One must know the simpler truths before they can know the mysteries.
Shem said:
“if all my good deeds go unrewarded than all my evil deeds must go unpunished”
Exactly.
Both of those things.
“This is what is called Justice, and God cannot be unjust.”
Exactly.
The piece of the puzzle that you’re not using, here Shem, is that
JESUS BORE OUR PUNISHMENT!
BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED!
GOD’S PERFECT JUSTICE AGAINST OUR SINS WAS EXACTED ON THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST!
That is what makes Him so precious, don’t you get it? Now that He has taken our punishment, any reward we get for any good thing He does through us we will give back to Him because He deserves it all. ALL the GLORY! ALL the PRAISE!
Oh, and Shem?
Jesus spoke in parables to hide the “mysteries” from people who would tread them underfoot. HOWEVER, HE EXPLAINED THEM TO HIS DISCIPLES…. and we can read them in the Bible, explained. Where, in the Bible, did Jesus ever explain His parables to be LDS Mysteries?
In the post preceding this one Shem used a
statement by Joseph Smith in his King Follett
discourse to say that Heavenly Father[HF]
never sinned etc.Joseph cited John 5:19,26.
Shem used these verses to prove that HF was
perfect and therefore never sinned.Was Joseph’s
interpretation of these verses right? Was he
always right?
When read in context these verses do not teach
what Joseph said. The point Jesus is making in
Jn.5:17-19 is that He is not doing these works
alone,He and the Father are doing together,at
the same time then and there.The Jews thought
He was usurping God’s authority.Jesus told them
He was not acting independently of God.
In Jn 5:26 the context is again the answer.
It says the Son has “life in Himself”, to do
what? Answer: to execute judgement, the same
judgement the Father will do.These verses have
absolutely nothing to do with the Father dying
and being raised from the dead.
A look through LDS history testifies of how
inaccurately some scriptures have been inter-
pretated by LDS leaders,interpretations that
today aren’t even accepted by current leader-
ship.
Jn.5:19 was at one time wrenched from its
context to “prove” another doctrine – Jesus
and HF are polygamists!
Benjamin Johnson,faithful Mormon, and close
personal friend of Joseph Smith, once testified
in defense of polygamy:
“….did not Jesus say that He did nothing but
what He saw His Father do- then must not His
Father have passed through a similar probation
to secure a tabernacle,and contracted those
conjugal relationships through which Jesus,
and with all of his younger brethren, the sons
of God were begotten in the spirit world?”
[from: Doing the Works of Abraham, p.85 ]
Early LDS felt (from scriptural support and no
doubt also personal revelation) that this was
the “pattern” of Heaven- polygamy. This was the
word that was used, this was the interpretation.
One question that arises: If Jesus was the first
spirit child born to
Cont.
HF, this happened years after HF had,on another
earth, died and been resurrected and rose to
heaven to begin producing spirit children.So
how did Jesus see His Father’s act of laying
down His life and taking it up again?
Shem also said that no LDS leader has taught
that HF once sinned etc. Actually, they did’nt
directly teach that, but,they did directly
teach that LDS will, one day if worthy, become
GODS and establish kingdoms peopling those
kingdoms will their children, thereby making
Shem, and other worthy LDS, Heavenly Fathers
themselves. Since these LDS are now imperfect
and “slip up” from time to time(like all of us)
one day eons from now his children will be able
to correctly say that their HF[Shem] was once a
sinner.
Every worthy LDS male is a God in embryo
Every worthy LDS male is a HF in embryo
This connection does not escape many LDS today.
SETFREE
What you say is basically what Ralph has said, that you get a free ride for the simple fact that you paid nothing. Of course you also admit that you gain no reward (shown in the fact that anything you would get is instead given to Christ). I have no problem with you believing this, but please admit that this is what the doctrine teaches.
As to the Parables, in all truth he gave an explanation to only a select few (at least that we have recorded). Also, you admit that he only explained them to his disciples. As such, since I do not believe you to be a true disciple of Christ, I am not going to explain these mysteries to you. The true disciples of Christ belong to his true church, and of those who are called in his church, only few are chosen to be members of the Church of the Firstborn, to whom the mysteries belong.
As I said, if something is taught, and we have a written record of it being taught, I am happy to teach and discuss it. However, I do not have authority to teach that which has not been recorded and taught by the prophets. I do have a right (if I am obediant to the Laws of the Gospel) to know these things through revelation, but only the President of the Church has the authority to bring such things to the world, and until he does, I cannot teach those things.
It is very much like Lorenzo Snow. It was revealed to him concerning the previous mortal life of the Father, and he went to speak to Joseph Smith Sr. as he had doubts as to the honesty of the revelation. The father of the Prophet told him that it was true, and was from God, but that he was not to teach it to others, for that was the calling of Joseph Smith Jr.
In like manner, God has revealed many great truths to me, but I cannot teach them to others, for the man holding the keys of these mysteries has not opened them to the world.
Shem, are these the mysteries that you were speaking of? Sounds like Prophet, Brigham Young and Prophet Heber C. Kimball had a whole different idea of who our god is than you do. Oh, I forgot. Your god changes at will to suit the emotional needs of the current flock:
Sounds like the LDS church has a few Joe Bidens in their midst.
But God’s Holy Word says differently,
LIV4JC
I am tired of going over the same old arguments, and really feel like I should not respond to what you say. However, I will give a brief explanation to a few things.
In Isaiah 43: 11 he speaks to himself as the one savior. Thus, in these verses he is stating that there is no other being who can bring about the salvation of men.
In like manner Isaiah 44 describes him being the god of this earth, as he is the savior, and in the eternities he will rule over this earth as the Head of the Gods of our generation.
This is the simplest way to explain what I believe concerning these verses, and I really don’t care that you disagree.
As to what you quote from Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, nothing here contradicts what I have said. The Father is a man. In fact, in the pure language of Adam his name was Aman. Thus, he is the first man, he is the beginning. Adam is the first to be born on this Earth, but he is not the first to be concerned with this Earth. Under his direction Christ and all the Noble spirit of heaven (including Adam) working in the creation. When all was prepared Adam brought the animals and plant to this planet because it was prepared for him and his children, just as other planets were prepared for other men and their children (every planet has an Adam). Since it was specially prepared for Adam he will be the ruler of it, under the direction of the Son of Man (or Christ), which son is over all the creations of his Father (who is over all the creations of his Father and so on).
It is all really very simple if you actually use your mind to think about it.
Thus, all that I have said is in complete agreement with the early leaders (no change has been made) and is in agreement with the Bible. So what you want, but the truth is there for anyone willing to look for it.
Shem, you are a fool in the most basic biblical sense. I don’t mean it as a personal afront. Your eyes are blinded to the true meaning of the Bible, and you cannot see the blatant contradictions of your church’s changing doctrine. Make up your minds. Did Elohim order the universe and create the earth? Did a council of the gods order and create the earth? Did Jehovah create the earth? Was Adam there when the earth was created? Did he help? Was Adam an eternal spirit who lived on another world, became a god, then came to this world to populate it, or was he the first created man who brought about the “good” fall? Doesn’t the Genesis creation account in the Bible, Moses, and BoA all say that either God, or a council of the gods, created the seed bearing plants and trees, fish, birds, animals, etc? Where or where outside of BY’s statements do we get this idea that Adam brought them from another planet.
Can someone please find the statement for me that says that there are more gods than particles in the universe? I’ve read it several times, but I have misplaced it. How is this even reasonably possible?
LIV4JC
You are the one blinded by the craftiness of men. All the questions you ask are so easily answered that only one who is unwilling to consider the different possiblities and meanings of words would not see it.
The Great Eloheim set in order those things that he created, and nothing else. But, he did so as an architect does, planning and preparing the process. He is the creator for it was his idea and plan (credited to him as the Head of the Gods, for he did work in a counsel).
However, the actual work was done by those noble and great spirit children of our Father for whom this Earth was to belong, and they worked under the dirrection of Christ who was the overseer of teh work. Thus Christ, as the leader of the spirits, is credited with the creation.
Just a the credit for the construction of a Building goes to both the architect and the contractor, the creation, or ordering, of this Earth goes to the Father and the son. However, just as a contractor has other men working for him, so too did Christ has the great spirits working under him.
In the actual work Adam was second only the Christ, and it was built for him, for he was to be the ruler of it, as I have already explained.
Thus, God the Father created all things, supporting the accounts of both the KJV of the Old Testiment and the Book of Moses. However, the actual work was done by Christ and the great spirits, which is the account according to Abraham, and is shared by Brigham Young.
Thus all things are answered.
As to the rediculous idea that Adam became a God on another planet, this was never taught by any leaders in the church, but is a false idea spread by those who do not understand their words.
Shem, the great spirits, or the gods?
Yup, fools in deed! The fact that Mormons can’t see it is testimony to the seared minds we are dealing with here. Where do they get all of their “stuff”? Well of course, it’s revealed. Sounds super special and hyper spiritual doesn’t it? Man, what a head trip. It’s so off he wall that only the truly anointed ones can understand it’s great depth. But this is pretty standard cult stuff. Pick any goof ball prophet and we’ll find those who will buy the program. And the more evidence that’s piled-up proving the cult false, the more the “anointed” ones dig in their heels.
Rejoice however in the knowledge that folks are bailing out on Mormonism everyday. Two-thirds are inactive and even half of returning missionaries drop out. Pride keeps the others locked into this diabolical scheme.
liv4jc and Falcon,
Matt 5:21-23 ! 😛
Falcon states, ” But this is pretty standard cult stuff. Pick any goof ball prophet and we’ll find those who will buy the program”.
Typical Sophistry, amazingly foggy rhetoric, even though you post to whom ever?? I’m sure they see the lack of any substance, and your continuos bit of ergotizing.
Regards, Richard. 🙂
Hay I think I have someone shadowing me. It’s kind of embarrassing to think someone has a man crush on you. Thankfully it’s probably just intellectual in nature.
So back to our previously scheduled program.
We have “a god” who’s a sinner who along with his sinful wife or wives, we’re not sure of the number, who rules his planets and promises other would-be-gods that they can make it too if they play religious dress-up, do ancient super duper secret, sacred rituals and keep tossing 10% of their income at a religious corporation that wouldn’t know benevolence if it bit them in the wallet. These prophet dudes who enjoy rock star status among the faithful, throw a little coin at the desperate and needy occasionally but not if it will interfere with their latest mall enterprise.
Yup, and how do we know this sinful man to demigod is all true. Well because when the faux priests think about it, it makes them feel good. That’s a sure sign that it’s on the level.
Paranoia? Hmmm, what’s wrong with correcting the may fallacious mistakes you make, I’m just posting for the many visitors, guest and in-actives. So watch out for the Shadow, he lurks and strikes with out warning, especially when it makes me feel so Gooooood.
R. 🙂
Setfree,
You said “You’re right that many (people, churches) claim Christianity, and act however they want. It’s too bad, because it’s not right. Christianity, as we know, is an overused, misused label.”
Just a question on this then – do you believe that those in the Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist movements are Christian? These are the Christian movements that have ordained homosexual priests. They believe in the Trinity as described in the creeds, they believe in salvation through faith alone, they believe sola scriptura and the Bible to be the only authorative word of God. These are the core doctrines that describe a Christian according to many on this site. That these people belive the same way as you do in these doctrines should make them Christians according to the logic/description given by many on this site.
I can go on with the friends I have in the Pentacostal church saying that their faith/religion allows for living together and sex before marriage (ie fornication) as long as its a commited relationship. The Lutheran church in Finland allows it as well, in fact from what I understand they allow people to live together indefinately without having to marry. Again, these people believe in the same core doctrine that many on this sight say describes a Christian. Does this make them Christian? Yes I know, you believe that an institution does not make one Christian, but these people believe the same core doctrine regardless of their institution, they just believe slightly differently about some small issues.
And since their works have nothing to do with their salvation, that one is saved by faith alone, shouldn’t they be saved already? That is how salvation by faith without works operates. In other words, homosexuals and fornicators can get into heaven as long as they have faith in Jesus (along with the murderers and adulterers, etc).
But if these works can keep people out of heaven, then works must have something to do with salvation.
Ralph,
It’s a good question. I think that the answer is in here:
Jesus said: “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
First of all, the way that your “righteousness” exceeds that of the Pharisees, is that your righteousness is imputed to you. You don’t get it by working on/for it.
The kingdom of heaven is made up of these people who’ve had God’s righteousness imputed them… it appears that Jesus said that men who break the little commandments and teach men to do so will be least in the kingdom of heaven. So, if the people in the churches are actually saved, and not just “pretend Christians” (you know, going through the motions, knowing they don’t believe), and they are still not interpreting the “liberty” thing well, they will be saved, but their reward will not be much.
On the other hand, the truly saved who are both keeping the commandments, and teaching men to do so, will be called great in the kingdom.
This is what I believe Jesus is saying here. I hope that another Christian will chime in in either agreement or disagreement. As I have said in the past, I’m newer at this than many.
Well it seems that the falcon has become the most feared and, I must add, respected Christian poster on MC. The TBMs have figured out that what I write is making an impact with our visiting Mormon readers. My tenure here on MC is approaching two years so getting a little recognition is good for the old ego. It lets me know my efforts are not in vain.
So starting from the top, what do we know. Well first of all we know that Mormons do not worship the God of the Bible but have instead sought to make a sinful man their god who has a sinful wife or wives. Must be wives because that’s the only way a Mormon male can become a minigod.
What else do we know? Well we know that the Mormon false prophet Joseph Smith used tobacco and drank alcohol which puts him way outside the necessary behavior pattern of a future god. We also know he was an occultist who, after convicted of treasure hunting with said magic rock, “translated” his fraudulent BoM by placing the magic rock in a hat and after shoving his face in the hat “magically” wrote a fairy tale.
What else do we know? Well said prophet Smith committed sexual immorality with 33 women who he defrauded by claiming that an angel with a sword appeared to him and demanded that he take on extra women or the angel would kill him. We know that Smith did at least an imitation of a pedophile by seducing a 14 year old girl and also committed adultery by “marrying” all ready married women.
Add to this bank fraud and any other numerous things and we see why Mormonism hides and white washes it’s history and by the use of Christian vocabulary continues Smith’s lies and deceptions. This is truly a marvelous organization.
I would urge our Mormon readers to take a closer look at this religion and its founder and run, don’t walk, away from it as fast as you can; just like countless others are doing everyday. The Mormon church has had to add significantly more staff just to process all of the resignations. Let your’s be the next.
Falcon, what you just said about Joseph I most likely can say about you concerning lying, and also add false witness. 🙂
But just for the record we can also quote Mosser and Owen regarding your false theories. 🙂
“In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticisms that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be “the definitive” book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors’ integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.”
Gosh Falcon, lets see, we have sensationalism, lack of awareness, refuted criticisms, and simply ridiculous. I happily place you in the categories of ridiculous and sensationalistic. 🙁
Regards, Richard.
So Setfree,
I take it from your comment that you do believe that murderers, adulterers, homosexuals and fornicators are saved if they have what you call “true faith” in Jesus but still do these things. Wow, so it really is a free ticket.
Falcon,
I do not fear you, I just fear the drool coming out of your mouth in bucket loads because I don’t want to drown. As far as respected – well I’ll leave that alone, I don’t want to deflate your ego.
If what you write is having an effect on the readers here it is going to be a sad day for you on judgment day for leading all those people astray and away from God. You will stand there before God and know that you were wrong and that you were instrumental in leading some of God’s children away from Him. And you will tremble and wish the mountains will cover you up and hide you. There will be no escape nor leniency for you.
To paraphrase an Evangelical Christian I have read (Dave Shirley) – Using Moses striking the rock instead of talking to it as an example, he said that God still gave the water to Israel. He still saved them. It does not matter what the leader does or says, God will still show mercy and save His people. Well what does that say about Joseph Smith and your comments then? It does not matter what JS did or said, God will still show mercy and save His people.
Ralph, I’ll also chime in on your questions. I hope I don’t muddy the water too much, but I think that you ask the question is a good reason why the folks who do believe such things should not believe them. In other words, people outside the faith see people doing them and think how hypocritical they are. This then tarnishes Christ’s message of salvation, which is based on faith in him.
That little intro did not answer your question though. Your question is based in part on the discussion we have had before regarding being saved despite our works. We are, and these people who live together before marriage may well be saved despite this egregious sin, too. But that is not conclusive (I don’t know what role Christ plays in their heart) and it really does give a sour taste to those on the outside.
Going then from the statement that we are saved despite our sins, we conclude that our salvation is based on our faith in Christ and on that alone. But what does that mean and what happens to us once we believe? Well, faith in Christ means not only that we believe who he says he is, but we place our faith in his full power to redeem us. Its one thing to say Jesus is God and it is another to yield our full lives to him. When we only believe the former, we can do whatever we want. But when we add the latter, we conform our lives to what he’d do. This is essentially the genesis of the WWJD bracelets, asking what would Jesus do in our situation and what then should we do? The answer, of course, is to do what Jesus would do and not what we would do on our own (what we want). Do you see this difference?
cont’d…
Once you see that understanding who he is and yielding our lives are two different things, we can then look at what the Bible says happens once we do believe– we become new creatures. Our old selves are left behind and we take on a new life in Jesus. This is also being born again– we are born into our new lives in Jesus. This means that we can do what Jesus would do much more readilly than we would before. Our lives are not our own, and we are totally transformed from what we were.
Now, this transformation may not take place all at once– our salvation is instantaneous– but the process of our milding can take some time. At the point of salvation, we start to conform and part of that is learning exactly what God would do. We learn by going to church, fellowship, Bible study, and constant prayer. But we will make mistakes, but that is OK. We will sin, and we will sin big time.
And that is where I think many come into error and the sin you speak of. Many think they can do these things without consequence when they cannot. But the mistakes they make do not necessarily mean they don’t believe. But it could. The proof will usually come in whether or not they later conform their behavior to Christ’s or continue to live in sin. Those who continue in sin may well not believe because they only give lip service to Christ and flip him off and do what they want regardless.
So, the simple fact that a young couple sleeps together is not determinitive of their belief in Christ, and I won’t immediately condemn them for that. But if they continue on in sin, personally, red flags go off because it means they don’t accept Christ’s will and favor their own– which is really what sin is.
This issue is problematic, though, because it is being supported by a few denominations. There are two things I think about these. First, not everyone in those organizations are necessarilly guilty of believing the same, and those in charge are sadly wrong.
cont’d…
The Bible, I think, is pretty darn clear on the issue of same sex relations and sex outside of marriage. On both of these, people who reject these tenats are not likely believers because they reject messages that are plain. Might they fully believe in the saving power of Christ? Yes, but they do not submit themselves to his will, and therefore fall into the category of those who simply know who he is. But knowing who he is really is not enough. I think it does take that act of believing in what he can do for you, and acting according to what he outlined. Sexual sin is outside of that will.
Another idea that we have discussed is the idea that we are saved despite our sin. What I just wrote may seem like its a bit contradictory. But keep in mind that no matter how much we allow Christ to rule our lives, we are still humans. We are new creatures in Christ, ie different than we were before, but we are still human and prone to sin. We are still tempted by devils, and we are often told to be aware and wear the armor of God. Inevitably, we are going to fail in some direction. Either we are going to reject Christ’s words in moments of passion (whatever that may mean) or we will become prideful or we will act greedilly or feel envy or any number of emotions.
A great discussion of this is in Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. A scene in that book I remember well is when the subject is sitting in church comparing himself to everyone else there, and thinking how much better he is than all the rest. But the moral is that we are tempted everyday in everyway– at home, at work, on the road (just have to beat that guy to the spot in the other lane), in sports, with friends. We fall all the time, and we rarely fully act in compliance with God’s will.
But what do we do about all of that? Well, first, we are comforted that regardless, we are saved and that Jesus continues his undying love for us.
cont’d again…
But simply accepting it falls short of conforming our responsibility to seek to conform to God’s will. We shouldn’t idly accept that we sin and just keep on sinning. Others have posted verses to this effect, but we are to be active in our faith striving to do all we can get where Christ wants us to be. Hence a faith without works is dead– a faith that does not try to get stronger or more like Christ isn’t faith.
But even though we strive, we fail. This is where the grace and mercy of Christ comes into play, and where the statement comes that we are saved despite our works. Our works will never do it– only Christ will, and faith that he can do it.
Now, I made a point earlier about how those who sin and who claim Christ create a poor image to those who do not believe. This is very true, and should not be forgotten. Its not about having a clean image of a nice group of people, but its about showing the goodness and consistency of Christ’s message.
Paul said that he could do anything and still be saved. This is very true and supports all I am saying. But he then says that just because he can do it does not make it good. (see 1 Cor 6: 12)
Part of the reason not all things are good is that those on the outside will question what is being done. And certain things may also lead other believers into sin. Rather than risking either option, its just better not to do it.
An easy example is a Christian man sleeping on the couch of his girlfriend’s couch all night. Can he? Yup, because waht really has he done that is sinful? Nothing. But he shouldn’t because others do not know he’s sleeping on the couch. And it also is indeed a huge temptation. If he does, will he lose his salvation? Not at all, but that doesn’t change that he shouldn’t do it.
Final post:
One final thing I’d like to mention: what shold Christians do who have sinned or done things like the young man sleeping on the couch? First, don’t do it again. Second, they admit it, at least to Christ. He knows anyway, and he offers an open relationship. But in addition to Jesus, we should talk about our struggles with others, whether that be a friend or pastor, it matters not, but I think it should be to another believer. There is something magic about confessing it aloud. Even non-believers use this technique to resolve problems. A third thing to do would be to simply go to scripture and continue to learn what it means to follow Christ.
Salvation is indeed easy, and that’s a glorious thing. But it does take a bit more than just acknowleging who Christ is– even the demons know who he is. Someone here once tried to equate the demons with us believers by saying they should be saved, too. But its not just faith in who he is, but its also faith in what he can do for us. Its the same act– faith, but its a very different kind of faith.
This distinction changes nothing from what has been said about faith alone, for it is this faith, in both who he is and what he can do for us, but the distinction perhaps helps clear the confusion on the idea of faith alone.
But once we have that faith, we are new creatures and not what we were before. Somehow, the dread of missing a night with a fiancee ebbs and we feel more comfortable sleeping in our own bed alone. It may not happen right away, but as we come to know what God expects, we want to do what he wants. We want to glorify him and not our own selfish desires. We live our lives for him and only for him, and our needs are found in him. What was once satisfying to us is no longer, and that satisfaction is now filled with the Holy Spirit. Knowing we can do nothing to warrant that contentment is powerful and excellent. When we try to fill it with our own power, something’s not right.
Michael, that was a very good explanation. I would like to add that there are false converts amongst us in any church of any significant size. Hence the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30). We now have whole portions of denominations full of tares, and they have split over those issues of sinful behavior condemned by God. That’s a straw man. Even the LDS church has to admit to Jack Mormons in their midst.
In Matthew 7 Jesus says that many will come to him on the day of judgement calling , “Lord, Lord!” When in fact He was not their Lord. They will proclaim that they did many works in His name. His reply? “Depart from me you who practice lawlessness. I never knew you.”
So who is saved? The one who has saving faith in Christ. What is saving faith?
It is the faith that is given as a gift from God because of His grace, and His grace alone. But can’t we do works to earn that grace by proving faith? What does the scripture say?
So by belief alone we’re saved and we don’t have to show any change in our behavior (call it works)? What does the scripture say?
Which also explains James 2:14-26 very nicely.
I see one of our Mormon posters pulled out a quote again (boring) that has been totally answered and refuted so I won’t go through that exercise again. Living in a dream world our TBMs just can’t seem to come to grips with the facts. I will suggest (again-this does get tiresome) that the TBMs look at the support for the claims made about Joseph Smith and Mormonism from Mormons. Denial is a psychological mechanism a person uses to protect themselves from information that will unravel their fragile mental state. There’s a malady within Mormonism called “shaken faith syndrome” and it occurs when a Mormon is faced with the truth about Mormonism and their “prophet” and not the whitewashed historical drivel put out by the SLC LDS church. The Community of Christ Mormon sect has a statement regarding confronting the history of the Mormon religion and the head of their denomination made a statement regarding it in their April 09 conference. These folks are much more healthy emotionally than the SLC sect which keeps its membership in a continual state of childish immaturity as is demonstrated here on a daily basis.
One Mormon writer encourages Mormons who have figured the scam out to “stay” in the church because while the church isn’t “true”, it’s still “good”. This is where the cognitive dissonance comes into play.
So for those Mormon readers who are starting to figure out that something just isn’t right and you’re tired of the Mormon church games, check out the following.
http://mormonstories.org/?p=50
http://mormonstories.org/?page_id=102
“An Insiders View of Mormon Origins” Grant Palmer
“Mormonism and the Magical World View” Michael Quinn
“In Sacred Loneliness” Todd Compton
and
“Under the Banner of Heaven” Jon Krakauer
“Beyond Mormonism” Jim Spencer
MICHEAL
That was a great discourse. The funny thing is, it is almost exactly what the LDS teach. Now, I find that very interesting, considering that when we speak of such things we are always told we are wrong.
If I may make a short summary of what you said:
To believe Christ is God is not enough. We must believe he has the power to save us, and do all we can to conform to his will. If we do not strive to conform we are showing only a faith in who he is and not in his power, thus our faith is dead and insufficient to save us. However, if we do strive to conform nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation.
Did I get this right?
SETFREE
It was the Great Spirits who did the actual work. The gods did the plannign of the work, and scedualing of each task.
Shem, see, I expected someone to say something like that on a few points, but no, it is not exactly the same. For example, who is your saving God? Does he do all the work for you, or do you have to do it all? What did I say about who does all the work here? I said Jesus does it all, even if we are to change our behavior. I also said changing our behavior is a natural outgrowth of accepting who Jesus is and what he does for us. I then said that we will constantly sin after we accept him and that it makes no difference to our salvation. I did say we are to really make efforts not to sin, though, but that these efforts do nothing to help us gain salvation– that is given at the moment of belief.
I then gave a few reasons why we should avoid sin.
Did you miss all of that?
MICHEAL
But you did also say that if we do not conform ourselves, or try not to sin, than we are not believing in his power.
“faith in Christ means not only that we believe who he says he is, but we place our faith in his full power to redeem us. When we only believe the former, we can do whatever we want. But when we add the latter, we conform our lives to what he’d do.”
“Hence a faith without works is dead– a faith that does not try to get stronger or more like Christ isn’t faith.”
These statement show that without us striving to be like Christ we do not have the Faith required for salvation.
In the summary I gave of your words I never mentioned who does the work, or why. My summary of your words was simply that if we do not strive to be like Christ we do not have the saving faith that is required, for this striving is “a natural outgrowth of accepting who Jesus is and what he does for us.” Thus, if we are not striving we do not have this faith.
This is what you are saying. I have not altered your words, or their meaning. I have simply applied logic to them.
Explain to me how one can have this saving faith and not try to be like Christ if doing so is the natural result of the faith?
Now, I will agree that we do differ on a few points, but the summary I gave of your words was accurate. I did say that what you said was “almost” what we believe not exactly. This is one reason I gave the basic summary and asked if I was correct in it, which your last post confirmed that I was. I never explained what I disagree with in your posts, or what the LDS believe. I simply said they were very similar.
One thing has to be cleared up and that’s the difference between Mormon “authors” and Mormon “sources”. Any Christian apologist worth his salt uses Mormon “sources” for their information. For example, Andy Watson, as he travels around carries with him an over-sized messenger bag packed full of Mormon source material. So a Mormon can’t doubt the information when it’s right in front of them and comes from Mormon “sources”.
My exMo friend Kevin is fond of saying that Michael Quinn has “…been in the vault. He’s seen the material.” What Kevin is referring to is the access Quinn had to original Mormon source material for his writing. Sandra Tanner draws her information directly from Mormon sources and this is just a short list.
Now the reason that Christians shy away from Mormon “authors” is because they tend to have all of the intellectual heft of a pet rock. They’re about as credible as the Mormons who would claim that Laminites are currently living under the North Pole or that Big Foot is the descendent of Cain. Mormon authors are stuck with a mess and the only way to overcome reality is to tell people to keep believing because it will all be proven to be true in the end. For Mormons who actually have some intellectual integrity, this “shut your eyes, grit your teeth and keep repeating I do believe in fairies” just won’t work.
So for Mormons who have denied Joseph Smith’s magic rock treasure hunting, for example, and now they’re faced with an actual court document that verifies that he was convicted of being a disorderly person, it’s crunch time. Or when they are faced with the actual document that he used to write the BoA and find that it says nothing of what he claimed, yup just keep believing in fairies because in the end it will be proven that they are real and just maybe Laminites do live under the North Pole and yes, maybe, maybe Big Foot IS really the descendent of Cain.
Shem, the trouble is, you have not taken my complete comments and made your conclusion from that. You found a line you liked and made it seem as if we are the same.
For example, you do not say who is to do the transformation and what it means. You do not mention that I stated unequivicably that we are saved the moment we believe. You do not mention that even though we will conform our lives we will fail and fail miserably. But even though we fail, we are still saved.
These are very important to see, and that you ignore them is interesting.
This discussion cannot be had without looking at each of these ideas, to do otherwise is akin to what you do to the Bible, picking and choosing the aspects you like.
I think it is clear from my comments that faith saves us, and nothing else. When we believe, we find ourselves as changed beings. That we strive to conform our lives to Christ does not mean we are more saved when are more like him. That we fail to completely conform does not mean we lose salvation or the opportunity to be with him.
Paul did say that he could do anything under Christ– all things are lawful! All things, so he really could go smoke pot (there’s no Biblical prohibition against it) in the bathroom at church and still be saved. But that would be bad for reasons I listed above, and several others.
So, if you wish to make logical conclusions, do so using more of what I said. Beleive it or not, I do this with your comments.
Shem,
From what has been written by and about Joseph Smith, I see him as someone who had a keen interest in trying to decipher the Bible, and who got swept up in trying to make himself a hero by explaining it to other people.
That “yours” and “ours” SOUNDS the same is because the same terms are used, but they mean different things.
For us, when Jesus becomes our Savior, we become justified (declared perfect), are adopted into the family of God, and become coheirs with Christ. The Holy Spirit moves in to indwell us, and begins the work of cleaning us up from the inside out. The Holy Spirit moves each time we come close to God (i.e. reading the Bible) to profess to us the truth of God’s Word (The BIble and Jesus).
For you, when you have faith in Jesus, you begin working to try to become perfect. You think you are already children of god, and that you will be come coheirs of Christ by becoming a god. You say the spirit witnesses to you by your “feelings”, and reject every part of the Bible that doesn’t suit you.
As far as “works” go, you work to be approved by God. We work because we are approved by Him.
See the difference?
Setfree, thanks for the addition. I forgot to point out this distinction that it is Christ who is changing us rather than ourselves who do the changing. This is an extremely important distinction.
SETFREE
You have no real grasp of what the LDS teach, as what you claim we believe is nothing like what we actually believe. Let me explain.
When you believe in Christ and accept him as the savior of all mankind you are changed by his spirit, altered quite literally into a new being. With this new nature you have been given the power to do the works which God Forordained that we should walk in. When you have done all you can with that power the spirit moves on you again, giving you more power to do even more works, and so on.
It is not by our power that we are changed and do the works that are required, but by accepting the power of Christ in our life, and willingly acting according to that power. If all we do is accept the power, but do not act according to it, our faith is dead for we have not the works.
Is this really any different than what you say in these last few posts. It isn’t. The only real difference in what we believe is that you believe that you cannot fall once you are saved, and we do not. However, the method of being saved is exactly the same.
Shem, if only our differences were that minor. If you only believed that a person must strive to keep God’s commandments to keep their salvation purchased by Jesus we could agree that you believe most of what Christians believe. We could say that like Roman Catholics you believe that Christ paid for your sins and by baptism they were washed away, but after that it is up to you to not sin to retain your salvation.
But the gulf is much wider than that. First of all, as pertains to the subject at hand in this post, you believe that not only are works necessary to retain salvation, you believe that if you do all you can do to keep those commandments, you will become a god. You have stated that the only reason Jesus was able to live a sinless life is because he attained perfection in his pre-mortal existence through progression. Progression points to a changing status. In context, that means from disobedience to obedience; from imperfection to perfection. Does that mean he sinned as a spirit? I thought that we came to earth to obtain bodies so we could learn to “choose the right” over the wrong to prove our worthiness. Did Jesus learn to choose while he was with Heavenly Father? Why was he given a pass and allowed to progress to perfection in the spirit world while we had to learn on earth? Would it have just taken too long for the rest of us? Does being the firstborn spirit-child impart some kind of immunity from disobedience or just put you on the fast-track to perfection? Did Jesus learn by trial and error as a spirit as we would in the flesh? Did Heavenly Father also learn that way?
What about the first man Adam? How did he do on the planet he was first created on? I’m a little fuzzy on why he was given dominion over the earth instead of going to the spirit world to progress after death. Does this mean the LDS teach reincarnation? Did he not do a good enough job and was not able to become a god?
Shem,
My question to you is this, when do our works and our effort meet with Christ so that he he changes us?
You put this nugget in there that cannot go un-noticed: “When you have done all you can with that power the spirit moves on you again, giving you more power to do even more works, and so on”
Is the all you can do part a condition that must come before Christ comes in? Or does Christ come in before the all you can can do part, and if that is the case, why do you emphasize that you can do anything?
Adam must not have attained exaltation because instead of becoming a god, he got stuck as the first man on earth. And he was appointed to be the sinner that would bring about death to allow Jehovah to become our savior. Did we all draw straws or was that punishment? I wouldn’t want the distinction as the first man who screwed everything up. What’s it going to be like when we see him in heaven? “Hey Adam, nice job! My grandfather died of cancer because of you. Jerk!”
Is he also a spirit child of Elohim? Did I live on another planet and fail before I came to earth? If so, why wasn’t I given dominion on another planet? There are an infinite number of worlds that were created by Jehovah (Jesus), aren’t there? Surely there are enough planets to go around. Where is my first wife? Why is daddy playing favorites by giving Adam his own planet and not me?
My head hurts.