A thought-provoking article was published last week on OpEdNews.com. Bringing Sense To Tax Exemption: A Coming Mormon Dilemma was written by Douglas Wallace, a former Mormon who served his mission in the United Kingdom as “Mission Architect.” As Mission Architect, he was involved in the initial planning for the first Mormon temple in England.
Mr. Wallace states in his article that, in 2008, after a long period of litigation, the LDS Church lost its tax exemption for its second British temple, located in Preston, England:
“In analyzing the pertinent law, it was determined that only structures which were open to public religious services were exempt from the tax. It was ruled that since the public in general and Mormons who failed to pay tithe were denied access to the temple that it failed to meet the test of being open to public worship.”
Mr. Wallace argues that taxes should be paid on all LDS temples around the world because they are not open to the public and they don’t provide any service beneficial to the public or government.
Mr. Wallace explains,
“Temple Patrons are members of the church who have passed strict investigation as to morals, strength of church membership and the most important, being a full tithe payer to the church treasury. The tithe represents a full ten percent of gross income before any governmental taxes are deducted. A member in otherwise good standing but failing the full tithe requirement is denied a pass from the local church hierarchy to receive a Temple recommend…
“Probably less than 30% of Mormons are full tithe payers and therefore 70% are ineligible for the temple recommend. Boiled down to the lowest denominator, only members who have paid the price for the ‘Blessings’ of the temple are allowed in it…
“…each patron may return to the temple and do proxy work for each of their ancestry provided they continue to obtain the Temple Recommend each year by paying a full tithing. It is very similar to the privilege to drive a car upon the highways by purchasing an annual license.”
Mr. Wallace goes on to liken the Church’s promised rewards for temple participation to “buying a share in the Brooklyn Bridge.” Of course, he’s writing from the perspective of one who no longer believes Mormonism is true and who has come to believe it’s all a “scam”. He sees the only winner in this scenario to be the one who ends up with all the money — the LDS Church. Therefore, he proposes, “let the church at least pay back to local governments a portion of its gain from the temple scheme.”
Mr. Wallace seems pretty cynical about Mormonism, and perhaps about religion in general, but he presents some interesting ideas. What do you think about his notion that a Temple Recommend is like buying a vehicle license? Or that any supposed spiritual benefits from temple attendance are “purchased” with the patron’s cash?
One might argue that it’s not just disobedience in tithe-paying that would bar someone from the temple, but disobedience of any of the required commandments would forbid participation. This would be tragic because, according to Mormonism, the only way a person can regain the presence of Heavenly Father — the only way anyone can spend eternity in the presence of God — is by going through the temple:
“Only through the eternal ordinances provided in temples can Heavenly Father’s children return to His presence.” (Church News, 5/25/2002, 16)
“It is only through the temple that we can regain the presence of our Heavenly Father.” (Cheryl C. Lant, “The Steps to the Temple,” Ensign, August 2009, 23)
So does this mean that a person cannot be fully reconciled to God and live with Him eternally unless he gives an honest tenth of his income to the LDS Church? And also keeps the Word of Wisdom? And also attends all his Church meetings? And also sustains the current Prophet? And also lives the law of chastity? And also keeps all his covenants? etc.? Does this mean a person can only come to the Father through the Mormon temple? What do you think about that? And how does it fit with John 14:6?
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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The first thought that came to my mind was that no wonder only 30% of the Mormon folks are really in to this Mormonism scene. It’s a pretty exclusive club! Lots and lots of rules. Lots of hoops to jump through. It’s no wonder Mormonism discredits the Bible. Don’t see much grace in Mormonism but a whole lot of doing…..lots and lots of doing. But talk about control freaks.
It’s a sad picture indeed! Locked in a system that requires more and more with the hope of the brass ring at the end of the ride. Why do these poor dupes buy into this pathetic program?
If Christ has set you free, you are free indeed. I would suggest that Mormons take a closer look at the rat-a-tat-tat they are locked into and find God and what he offers without any dues to be paid. He wants us, not our works and certainly not our money. He has all He needs!
To bend your knee and surrender your will to
the Living Lord of the Universe,Jesus, is to
simple for fallen man. To climb up to become
an Almighty God [Rev.19:6] takes study,work,
persistence.It stokes the pride.Like belonging
to a select fraternity secret oaths,passwords,
gives initiates a sense of accomplish.Buoyed
by the knowlege that the Creator of Heaven and
Earth went through this exclusive ritual Himself
and became what He is today, so can fallen man.
The door to eternal life with our God is not
thru the locked door of an LDS temple,the door
is a person,JESUS. John 10:9; Rev.3:20
“unless he gives an honest tenth of his income to the LDS Church” In the Oct 2009 Ensign, I believe Monson suggested a person who fully understands would pay twice the tenth, meaning twenty percent in tithing. Folding over from the previous posts, Mormons will suggest that is not what Monson meant.
I thought a Church could only hold tax exemption (In the U.S.) only if they didn’t engage in partisan political activities. I know the word partisan can get mucky, but wouldn’t it be interesting if a Senator brought into question the role that Mormon’s took during Proposition 8. I cannot wait for the film to be released.
I wonder if that could jeopardize their tax exempt status?
You give money to the church, and God blesses you.
I’m not sure why there’s any argument about this coming from the Mormons (of which I was, until recently, among). There was the movie that many of us young Mormons saw during our youth that involved the prophet going down to St. George and having a vision in front of the crowd. He told the people that the drought would end if they paid their tithing. They did, and God sent rain.
Is giving 1/10 of your eggs, or wheat, different from giving 1/10 of your salary?
Goldarn, are you a former Mormon, or a current one? I couldn’t tell from that short post. In any case, welcome!
I think that the issue of tithing is yet another one where we can say the same things, and mean something totally different.
In my perspective, God who gives us all things, who blesses us even though we don’t deserve it, etc, is asking very little when He says to give 10% back to further the spreading of His good news so that more and more people can find Him and enjoy Him.
As a Mormon, though, your ‘blessings’ are dictated (supposedly) by the church, in that they can withhold your CK from you if you don’t pay up. One even told me, out here on MC a little while ago, that they thought the two people in the Bible who lied about how much money they were giving, were struck dead for not giving all they “owed”. Good grief, that is so not Biblical. God says basically “You give me 10% back of what I give you (hardly a bad deal) and see if I don’t pour blessings out so you don’t even have room to receive them”. He does NOT say “If you don’t give me your 10% of hard earned money, you deserve to die!”. A total mis-interpretation of what happened in that Bible passage, based on a wrong understanding of God.
I have found that I have all the money I need, no matter what (and usually more), even in this recession, because God has shown me that I can trust Him and let go of whatever amount of money He wants, when He wants. I don’t worry about putting money toward the cause of getting more people understanding the Bible and the Gospel because God takes care of me, regardless, you know?
I’m pretty cynical about the whole LDS church machine too. I wish I could have all my forced tithing money back… I’d put it to much better use
Dear Sharon,
Thank you for sharing this interesting article.
As a Christian, I am puzzled by the claim that essential blessings are available only within the LDS temple. The first chapter of the book of Ephesians clearly states that the Christian already has every spiritual blessing by virtue of their union with Jesus Christ.
It also sounds by some of the quotations cited by the article that participation in the temple in some way changes one’s standing before God. If this were true, then the temple must play a role as mediator between God and man. The Bible does speak of a mediator between God and man. It clearly states there is only one. But it is not a building; it is Jesus Christ.
Salvation is not found in one’s pocketbook. (Though many in our world seem to believe this is so, and believe this in many different ways.)
There are two sides to every issue. Do the Brits have a valid point? I think they do. Should the smithians pay restoration? I don’t think so. The law was the law, up until it was changed. But I think the changes make a valid point.
The smithians claim that Jesus is the door, not the temple. This is true, but there IS a set of rules they must live by to EARN their exaltation. It is a choice by the smithians to live up to the rules, or be banished to lower kingdoms. Is that scriptual? Christians think not, smithians think it is.
It is too much like salvation (exaltation) being bought for a price. (Which was paid by Jesus death on the cross) For some the sacrifice of paying the tithing is worth any sacrifice to get the blessings. For others, the priorities of feeding their families takes precedence over anything else, and smithians will say, well, they made their choice.
I’m sure it is a struggle sometimes not to be resentful at having to pay that 10%, and the question is would a merciful God not understand this? Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar…” but I still get resentful at the government for taking their 25 to 35% of my income. We do however, have an option to change the rules of the government, the smithians have no such option.
They do however, make the agreement UP FRONT, and perhaps a lot re-consider that prayer they prayed and the good feeling they got to join the smithians after having to live the principal…
In these hard times many are taking advantage of the laws to “get around” having to pay taxes, and the smithians are no different. I know many of the “pulpit pimps” in the Christian circles have been investigated by the government on how the money comes in and is spent. This issue is not limited to the smithians.
What it boils down to is ALL churches should be treated the same, they should ALL have to disclose (most do) their finances, and this is one more area where the smithians are being called upon to bring all out into the light.
The only time that I have a real argument with Mormonism is when it claims to be restored first century Christianity. Beyond that, I really don’t care what they do or believe, except that I feel I have an obligation to cult proof others so they don’t fall for the deception that comes knocking on their door in the form of well scrubbed, fresh face youth.
Mormonism, as I seem to be repeating often lately, has it’s own god, scripture and plan of salvation that bears no resemblance to Christianity. As such, if they want to shake people down for their time, money and talents and if people agree to the shake-down, so be it.
Mormons obviously have to pay and work their way into the highest level of Mormon heaven. These little McTemples are really major profit centers for Mormonism. Right up front, the faithful Temple attendee has to come up with 10% of their gross incomes to get into the place.
I don’t know the answer, but are Mormons building a lot of temples in third would countries? I just read, I can’t remember where I read it, but they closed one of the McTemples. Without saying so I believe $$$$ was the problem. Is the LDS church going to stick a lot of money into a McTemple in a country where the folks have to pay in rice? Just a question.
Kevin – I do not know about other states, but out here in California, it has been explained to me that churches can advocate for or against propositions, but not for specific candidates. My pastor friends were very busy as well working in the Prop 8 issue, and the leaders of that have had regular death threats and horrible emails. Actually, even our former mayor received death threats for his comments. Welcome to the wild west…
Lets say I was a mormon. I lost my Job, I cannot pay my bills let alone my REQUIRED tithe. Does this mean I am then denied eternal glory with the father all because the economy went into the tank? Sounds like I’m out of luck, I am denied a higher heaven because I have no money.
But If I read the Bible, I can come to Christ just as I am, a really poor guy with no money, because God owns it all anyway. Well I guess I’m glad I’m not a mormon under all that guilt and bondage.
I choose to believe Jesus when He said, My yoke is easy and my burden is light. Since Mormonism has a heavy burden and very unequal yoke to bear. Rick b
Where does all the money go? I have heard over the years that the Mormon Church owns several corporations, but I have not really investigated. I also have read about the controversy regarding a shopping mall or being built or owned by the LDS. If a Church acts more like a corporation than a religion, should their tax exempt status be revoked? Scientology is an example of a religion that resembles a corporation more than religion. Scientology fought for their tax exempt status and won. I can’t see the Mormons fairing worse than they did. But one does wonder – with all that tithe money coming in, where does it all go? I also wonder about what Falcon said – do the LDS close down under-performing temples? Again, I have read that some European temples sit almost unused, but have not heard of any being closed permanently – it would be interesting to find out if that happens.
Kevin
your tithing exaggeration, is at best amusing. Do not forget the “ox i nthe mire” clause 😉
However, my own tithe experience has been guided by 1 Cor 9:7, and during tithing settlement that is the verse i typically use to guide my reply when the question is asked “have you paid an honest tithe?”
Can the Ev really ignore James 1:27? Yes, they can…”stewardship” has often replaced the notion of tithing in the Ev church, and there is no need to wonder why.
Rick B,
Since 10% of nothing is zero, then you would not be required to pay any tithing if you were to lose your job.
I lost my job a few years ago and I am very thankful for all of the assistance that I received from my ward, friends, and neighbors during that challenging few months that I was unemployed.
I know I didn’t feel any “guilt or bondage” due to my situation. I hope no person, Mormon or not, is ever made to feel guilty for being poor or unemployed.
These verse come to mind,
Sub – your tithing explanation is, at best, confusing. First, I don’t know what “ox i nthe mire” means. Please explain. Second, when you use 1 Cor 9:7, to “guide” your reply to “have you paid an honest tithe,” strikes me as dithering, but I should add here that I do not know how this works. I assumed you had to show some numbers (payroll stubs, account lists??) and you were expected to give evidence of some kind that you have met the tithe rule. You use of that scripture, and the word guide makes it sounds like your answer would be “that depends,” which does not fit with the seemingly strict percentage. And then you criticize Evs for stewardship. Am I missing the key to a code or something?
No one has answered yet what happens if you are unemployed and can’t pay your tithe. Do you pay a title on the benevolence you receive, does the leadership track this? How long does one receive of the welfare of the church before it works against them? Just wondering…
Sub, I wanted to ask you something.
How was it that you came to trade in your forgiveness and “so great a salvation” for your system of works and unachievable perfection? Was it the promise of becoming a god, or something else?
“Kevin
your tithing exaggeration, is at best amusing.”
My exaggeration? Really? Ok. Here is the direct quote from Uncle Moneybags Himself.
“To know that a poor man consistently and cheerfully gave at least twice a tenth to the Lord gave one a clearer insight into the true meaning of tithing.”
So the true meaning of tithing is Cheerfully giving AT LEAST twice the tenth to the Lord.
Que LD$ Spin Doctors…
subgenius,
As a former Presbyterian you must know that your comment regarding stewardship is disingenuous, as I am sure you are aware the diaconate in the Presbyterian Church and much of Christianity is specifically ordained to minister to the material and spiritual needs of a particular congregation and their surrounding areas. I am also sure that you must be aware that the various mission boards that have a role in the ministry of both material and spiritual needs of Christians and non-Christians around the globe.
After reading this post and the article it links to I find myself wondering how long it will be before tax exemption is a thing of the past in England and possibly the United States for all Churches.
There isn’t anything to commend Mormon temple worship, it is neither historical nor biblical, it adds an extra biblical requirement for salvation apart from the finished work of Christ.
Sharon mentions John 14:6, there are a bunch of other verses in John that conflict with Mormon’s modern works based temples (John 5:21; 6:40,44; 11:25; 12:32 etc.)
The SLC Mormon church is selling a benefit. That benefit is godhood plus a planetary system. It’s probably like buying a franchise of some type. You buy the franchise and then you ship a certain amount of your gross receipts to the corporation. The only thing that the SLCers can’t figure out is how to skim off some revenue when the god gets his planets. I’m sure the boys in SLC are working on it. They probably hall out Joe’s magic rock and consult it when they have their board meetings. I don’t know what the current going rate is for becoming a god, but there has to be a minimum buy-in I’d think.
I can understand why people like Mr. Wallace are so angry when they finally fit the pieces together and the puzzle of Mormonism finally reveals itself for the farce it is. I am not meaning to cast about negative comments, but the entire enterprise is such an amazing concoction of ridiculous beliefs based on a poorly written unsupported religious text supposedly from ancient North America, Masonic/fraternal rituals poorly adapted into some kind of religious ritual to attain godhood, Egyptian funeral papyrus purported to be written by the hand of Abraham, disappearing golden plates translated with spectacles and a seer stone in a hat, elaborate temples with secret handshakes, etc. etc. The belief system of Mormons is not just a wrong interpretation or twisting of scripture as one might say of JWs or Christian Science, it’s a slapstick/farce over the top silliness. If one is fooled by all this nonsense and slowly or suddenly grasps the true nature of this belief “system” I can understand why they are angry. They didn’t just view the Bible in a wrong manner – they had embraced a belief system so “out there” that they become incensed and angry that an organization would perpetrate such a fraud. I don’t mean to offend – this is some of my thinking on Mormonism and I think it motivates a lot of the anger from ex-Mormons. They feel like they’ve been had. My prayer is that those trapped in this system will have the truth of Christ crucified for their sins break through all the noise and reveal God’s amazing grace. Rather than getting caught up in bitterness, those abandoning Mormonism would experience the truth of salvation by grace through faith.
Sub, I was just as confused by your scripture reference as the rest. Guess I have to turn in my Mensa card.
Grindael, I never welcomed you back and praise God for answered prayer.
Goldarn, my personal belief is that the tithe was to provide for theocratic Israel. The OT covenant and it’s components were to prosper national Israel through obedience and to provide for the priests. I don’t believe that the “tenth” is required to be payed to your local church. I give what I feel like giving. That way it is not out of compulsion, but out of my desire to give. I generally pay less than 10%, but have paid more when needs arise.
When my Smithian friend got a refund check from his mortgage company and attributed that to his faithful tithing I thought, “Self, that’s the same message the pastor preaches and I have used that logic myself. But I know God wouldn’t bless someone for giving money to an organization that is dedicated to tearing down His kingdom. So either it’s a recurring coincidence or it’s totally subjective.” I realized that I was giving out of compulsion to obtain the promise of blessing for legalistically giving 10% that I couldn’t afford to give and didn’t want to give. If a person decides within themselves that 10% is a good baseline, I have no problem with that, but the LDS org. is not the only “church” teaching legalistic tithing.
On Sunday’s when it’s time to ‘pass the plate’ our preacher encourages us to give joyfully and porpotionately. Ultimately you decide what that is. No one is questioned as to whether or not they gave enough. And no one is denied priviledges if they haven’t. At the risk of stirring the old ‘works vs grace’ pot *sorry* I just can’t understand how Mormons can ‘explain away’ what is clearly a earn your way into the CK scheme…obey rules, pay money, get evaluated, *if you pass* get a temple reccomend, perform temple ordinaces, earn enterance into the CK. So anyone who doesn’t go thru the temple will not spend eternity with God right? Which is the essence of salvation to an Ev, spending eternity with God. It should be easy to see then how Evs can undersand Mormons to be buying their way into Heaven.
Mormonism is only getting a 30% buy-in to their “you can become a god too” program. I wonder why that is? Is it because there aren’t enough temples geographically placed to accommodate all the folks? It’s been reported that the pay-back on a new temple is relatively quick. So I’m wondering if the relatively low level of participation is because of lack of a local temple or that the general membership is really not that gung-ho about becoming gods.
We know that the going price for godhood and planets is 10% of the Mormon’s income. So what about the other requirements. How much “doing” does a Mormon have to “do”. Does the money giving and “doing” account for sufficient enough “progression” or are there other requirements? I would guess behavior patterns come in to the picture some place. And also, what about “after all you can do”? Where does that come in?
I can see why Mormons aren’t into the Bible. A solid reading of the Bible blows Mormonism right out of the water. There is no Mormonism in the Bible. There isn’t even any Mormonism in the BoM. It’s a program made-up out of whole cloth. It’s not even a distant cousin to first century Christianity. It’s a conglomeration of a bunch of ideas that kind of flipped Joe’s switch.
I would suggest that Mormons investigate and learn who God is, what He did for us and what it cost Him. Do Mormons actually think they can add to God’s perfect sacrifice? Mormonism is an affront to God and a very cruel system indeed.
I always find it interesting reading about the
lives of former Mormons.Mormons often talk about
a tithe(10%) yet it seems that it can be a lot
deeper than that for many LDS.
Former Mormon, Latayne Scott, in her book
The Mormon Mirage(1979, p.220-221) states that
for one faithful LDS who held an administrative
position,admitted that the actual demand on his
yearly salary was 35%. She goes on to state that
estimates are that only about 1in4 LDS actually
pay a full tithe.
Today’s LDS have enough rules and laws to keep
in their hope to become Gods and Goddesses,
tithing being just one.Yet LDS in the past may
have had it even more strict.Latayne states:
“Originally,tithing meant giving all of one’s
‘surplus’ to the Bishop, plus ten percent of
one’s increase.”
What about it being necessary to agree to tithing
before being baptized? This was communicated to
her during the journey thru the missionary lessons.
Giving freely of your abundance back to the Lord,
even an exact percentage(10%) is not the issue.
Making it a law and rigid compliance to it a
pre-requisite to get into “God’s House” ( His
presence) is not the new covenant that Jesus
inaugurated with His shed blood on the cross.
I would like to address the question of tithe-paying when someone has lost their job. Where there’s no income, there’s no tithing. Now, let’s say you have two bread winners, and one loses their job…well, the one who is still earning a paycheck will be encouraged to continue to pay tithing so they will still be temple worthy. So, what about the bills? The Church would rather you pay tithing so much that they will help you financially if you have no other means of help, and also give you food for as long as needed. They really do put a premium on tithing. The problem with Mormonism is that they make everything legalistic. You have to do such and such to get such and such. In Mormonism, obedience is not the active response of a saved soul, but the requirement of a lost soul to earn salvation for himself. Once again, Mormonism proves itself to be built upon a backward theology. Give as much as you can and as often as you can, which a Wesleyan thought, but not so you merit anything from it, but that you reveal your faith in the One who has saved you, even Jesus Christ.
Blessings…
Liv4JC-
Hi. I’ve been back since Friday, but have been in a lot of pain, so posting has been limited. Thank you for all of your kindness. The Lord has certainly blessed me. I am only 52 but had a work accident and had to have total knee replacement surgery. Nothing can prepare you for the reality of it.
I read your other post on the comedy of errors posting, and it got me thinking. As an ex-mormon, can you recommend some good reading on understanding hebrew/greek in translations? I took some greek at BYU, but it was LONG, LONG ago…
As I posted over there, there are many mormons here with an impressive amount of bible knowledge. I have re-read the Bible and been in study classes for 2 & 1/2 years now. I have been injured (and had two other injuries since, related to the knee & can’t get out much anymore.)
Internet sites are great if you have them, I know about biblegateway and how to find topics on the internet, but good books are always the best. I found the salvation army down in Florida when I lived there, helping with relief efforts from numerous hurricanes. I enjoy their services, and feel called to serve, but desire more knowledge. I admire William Booth and what he started, and have nervously preached a few sermons.
Our church here in Buffalo had about 15 members when I first started going. This church had flourished in the 80’s but had stagnated. I did not feel it was for me at first but stayed. I read a book called Red Moon Rising and it inspired me to build a prayer room(the SA is into the 24/7 prayer movement.) I got a map of Buffalo and we started praying for the area. I put my hands on a map of the area and asked God to open the doors to his Gospel and this church. We are over a hundred members now with over 50 children. I can’t wait to get back, I have been months bed-ridden.
I stumbled on this site in September, and was amazed at the healing power of God, although it took me 25 years to set foot in another church after I left smith’s.
Grindael,
I’m glad to hear you’re healing too. And thanks for the additional look into your life.
I think we take for granted that God said that He cares for us to the point that we don’t even have to worry about food or clothes, if we believe. He’s certainly able to heal, provide, save…
I’m finding so beneficial some of the books I’ve been reading that really pin down the Truth, which is the reality of God and the historicity of the Bible, because it really is one thing to know in your heart that what you read is reality, and another to see from a logic and reason and scientific standpoint that what you believe is absolutely true. Makes it so that leaning on God to heal you right up is that much easier. No more doubting His healing away. lol
I’m kinda wordy this morning, must be the weather
I know revealing a lot about yourself is a two-edged sword, but I have nothing to hide. I do feel for those still trapped in smith’s nightmare, and pray for them continually. Knowing you have been duped is not easy to live with, and I can be up front in saying I will continue to expose smith for what he was, and hope something I say can turn someone away from the nightmare I had to live through. I know in my case, knowledge helped.
I read all the comments, both sides, and can’t see anything in what the smithians post that has changed since I left the church. What HAS happened, is I see the diff between Jesus Simple Gospel & the complex Cult of Smith. The joy of Him in my heart, and the peace of His salvation is a far cry from the rule-ridden experience of smith’s cult. His burden is not heavy, and knowing that HE did it all, makes me all the more anxious and zealous to serve Him and help others.
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In God’s great mercy he has caused us to be born again into a living hope, because Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Now we hope for the blessings God has for his children. These blessings, which cannot be destroyed or be spoiled or lose their beauty, are kept in heaven for you. God’s power protects you through your faith until salvation is shown to you at the end of time. This makes you very happy, even though now for a short time different kinds of troubles may make you sad. These troubles come to prove that your faith is pure. This purity of faith is worth more than gold, which can be proved to be pure by fire but will ruin. But the purity of your faith will bring you praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is shown to you. You have not seen Christ, but still you love him. You cannot see him now, but you believe in him. So you are filled with a joy that cannot be explained, a joy full of glory. And you are receiving the goal of your faith—the salvation of your souls.” (1 PET 1:3-9)
amen to that, Grindael.
Grindael,
God Bless you.I pray for your speedy recovery.
Grindael, it sure doesn’t sound like our names can be erased from the Book of Life. Peter must have been paying too much attention to Paul when he wrote that.
I have an awesome resource for you, especially if you have a little Greek background. It’s http://www.greekbiblestudy.org Once you create an account you can even save your own translations and text notes. The best part is that it’s FREE. God bless those who have spent so much time and effort to bring clarity of God’s word to the world. I also purchased the NET Greek/English diglot recently from aomin.org from their store under the Doctrine and Scripture category. It’s a little pricy, $70.00-$100.00, but it’s well worth it.
In regards to James White’s paper on “ego eimi” in John, we miss so much not being familiar with the culture of Jesus’ day. I’m sure that as powerful as the Bible is, it must have been earth shattering to those who read it within the context of their culture.
Is it a lesser observation that the 4-headed beast of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation, with faces of man, ox, lion, and eagle predicted the 4 gospel writers’ slant on Jesus?
Matt, who presented Jesus as the Lion of Judah
Mark, who presented Jesus as the Servant (ox)
Luke, who presented Jesus as the Son of Man
and
John, who presented Jesus as Divine (from out of heaven)
It was new to me, when I heard it not so long ago.
Jackg said
I am the one who brought this up, Thanks for replying. Now in my case, If I were Mormon, my job would be the only one, since my wife is a stay at home mom.
But here is a real life example of something I saw, A bit of an abuse. A women in my church, single mom with 3 kids went to the church and asked them to pay off all her credit card debt, it was close to 20,000. They said no. I dont blame the church for saying no.
If very member went to the church and said, pay my credit card debt, the church would not be able to do it. So she then decide to become a mormon.
The Church sent MM’s to clean her house and do work around the house, then they gave her money, she finally converted. Well She abused the Mormon church by telling them what they wanted to hear, Give me money and send poor kids to work around my house.
Her bills were never paid in full by the church, they helped out in minor ways, she lasted less than a year. My point is, to some degree the Mormon Church brings people in because of what they do for them, to get them in. But once they convert and the church wants your money and you to help others then it changes everything. Rick b
just to clarify some concerns I read above (and some mischaracterizations in the article).
first, during a tithe settlement or when the tithe question is asked for temple recommend’ absoluteley no financial records are disclosed or even asked for. It is always just the one simple question. Furthermore this is not the condition for a temple recommend. There are several questions that one simply answers, that is all. Many churches subscribe to the “oral declaration” standard .
The LDS has 2 main different donation systems – Tithing and Fast Offering (as referenced in Malachi under LDS interpretation). Both are on faith basis, not compulsion regardless of what some people think.
Tithing goes into building projects, paying the people who work for the church (eg accountants, builders, laywers, general authorities) – basically for the building up of and maintaining the Kingdom of God on this earth, which needs money to survive.
Fast offering goes into a seperate pool and is used for assisting those who need it – whether member or non-member I might add. However, we do not do cash handouts with this money. If someone needs financial assistance the church takes control of the money so it goes to the proper place, not to buying non-necessities or gambling, etc. But the church wont pay for just anything – only the necessities, like rent, electricity, medication and food. Phones are not considered a necessity unless the person is house-bound. Credit cards are not considered a necessity so those bills are not paid off. Also it is not a hand-out, the person asking for the assistance is asked to do a little in return. It may be to clean the chapel for a week, or to assist someone in the ward with their yard/house work, etc.
When it comes to tithing settlement, the only financial records viewed are the donations made to church. One does not have to prove that they are a full tithe payer or not – they just need to make the declaration from their own conscience. Their declaration stands between them and Heavenly Father – the Bishop is only a witness.
Yes, only members who ‘qualify’ get to go to the temple. But what is the ‘qualification process’ all about – to determine their faithfulness in living how we believe that Jesus wants us to live. Thus it is only faith that gets us into the temple, but it is judged on our works. Rather much like the way the Bible describes the final Judgment. Only the faithful benefit from temple attendence.
As far as the tax requirements goes, that is a government thing. If the LDS church fills the requirements for tax exemption, then we can claim it. If it goes on a per building basis, then so be it, tax may need to be paid on some of the church’s buildings. If it goes on a whole grouping basis then tax should not have to be paid on certain buildings. But I don’t know the tax laws for England (nor do I for Australia). So it’s not up to me to make a statement about if it right or wrong.
When it comes to the title of this blog “Buying Blessings?” it is neither here nor there. It’s your interpretation. I pay my tithing because I believe that God has asked me to. He has also given a promise to those who pay it, and my faith in Him to keep that promise also assists me in paying it. But does that mean I am buying blessings? To me it isn’t as God is the one who decided to make a promise to me if I paid my tithing. To you, it could be because you don’t believe that I believe in The God. Plus you also have a skewed view of my religion. But the Bible states and shows many times that if we do what God wants us to do He can and will reward us. The ultimate reward is heaven/CK. So what is wrong with paying tithing in faith and expecting God to keep His promise which He has given? Or do you believe that God does not have to keep His promises?
Ralph
well said, thank you for your honest words. Should be interesting to see the Ev anecdotal distortion on your truthful depiction.
why is any creedence being given to a misleading story by an admitted “cynical” ex-Mormon?
Salvation is spending eternity with God. You have to go thru the temple to get into the CK where God is. You have to be worthy of getting into the temple. Doesn’t that seem like you have to be worthy of salvation? And if you could reach a level of worthiness for salvation then why did Christ have to die? No one is capable of becoming worthy of salvation. Grace is giving us something we don’t deserve and Mercy is withholding something that we do deserve. It doesn’t sound like grace or mercy have a place in Mormonism since you earn your right to enter into the CK.
Rvales,
Only the faithful can enter the temple. This is determined by how they show their faith, which as I said is how the Bible describes final judgement. We will stand before God to be judged on the Day of Judgement, and the determinate is that we must have faith in Jesus Christ. But how does God know we have that faith? Through the life we live after we are converted – this is ‘works’ or better described as actions or deeds. The very first question in the temple recommend inteview is do you believe in God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ? If the answer to that is no then the interview stops there and then. If the answer is yes, then the interview is continued to determine if you are faithful to Jesus or not by following what He has asked us to do – ie WoW, Tithing, Law of Chastity, honesty, integrety, etc.
People do not have to go through the temple to gain salvation. They just need the ordinances. This is done by proxy for those who were not able to go through the temple in this life. However, although they will receive the ordinances, they will not gain any more personal revelation/understanding of God, Jesus and their plan for us, which is learned from the presentation. That is an advantage, per se, of going through while living.
But only the faithful will gain more out of the endowment ceremony than those who are not. Just look at all those on this site that have been through the transcripts found on the internet and see just how much they do not understand what they read. They are not following with the Holy Ghost’s assistance, so they do not understand. I have been many times and I find I learn more each time, showing that I do not understand it all either.
Grace is what gives us mercy. It is only through faith in Jesus that we can be saved, but that faith will be judged by our actions in this life. Jesus said if we love Him to KEEP His COMMANDMENTS. Not SUGGESTIONS or WHIMS, but COMMANDMENTS. Would you agree that if we did not love Jesus we would not get into heaven because it would show a lack of faith?
So what is wrong with following Jesus commandments because we love Him and have faith in Him?
Yes, you can point ot many instances in our church’s archives that say that we need to work through our lives and that we will merit salvation, etc. Look at the audience it is talking to. They are already believers in Jesus. These talks are just reinforcing the fact that we cannot say that we believe and then do nothing. Jesus has given us commandments to follow, we need to be doing these things, otherwise our faith on the day of judgement will be found lacking. And regardless of how you want to phrase it, reaching heaven after this life is a reward and is referred to as such in the Bible. Look up reward in the dictinary and you will find that it refers to something merited. In this case I do not have troubles with the wording of these talks when they talk about meriting eternal life.
But I do have troubles when many here say that we LDS rely solely on works to get to the CK when we teach and tell you that it is first and foremost faith in Jesus which drives our works, and without that faith whatever we do will not get us there. But you see salvation as a right here right now thing with no loss whatever you do, we LDS see it as being on the day of Judgement when our faith will be judged according to our works/actions throughout our life. That is why you cannot understand what we teach.
Well my observation is that Jesus is an add-on if the Mormon, in his effort to do all he can do, can’t quite get over the hump. But that’s Mormonism and as we know, it bears no resemblance to Christianity in any century. So with their other god and other jesus and other plan of salvation, Mormons can have it any way they want it. Unfortunately for them, the end is eternal destruction.
Now the real God has laid out His plan of salvation. It’s based on the fact that as sinners, we can’t save ourselves, to any degree. We are down in the dirt lost and without hope without Jesus Christ. He paid the price for us at the Cross. When we receive the free gift of eternal life (through faith) which God is offering us, we enter into His rest.
Now Mormons want to become gods. So in order to become gods, in their false system, they have to meet certain requirements and yet none of them ever knows if they have done enough. That insecurity is built into the system to keep them in tow and genuflecting to the Mormon organization.
Ralph wrote
What ordinances?
Do you mean the secret handshakes and name-whispering that Joseph Smith stole from the Masons? If that’s the case, I recommend that you join the Masons; you’ll get pretty much the same package, but its cheaper – they don’t demand a compulsory 10%.
Or perhaps you mean the intricate rituals that are so prominent in the New Testament? (Oh, I forgot, the Catholics ripped out those pages).
Read again what your people (Cheryl C Lant and Church News quoted above) have said about the role of the Temple in gaining access to the Heavenly Father.
Also, note that when we are “saved” and have access to the Heavenly Father, there is nothing more that we need (Eph 1:3 etc).
Are you saying that there’s something missing from what the Heavenly Father has given us in Christ? Perhaps Paul got it wrong.
Jesus and His followers revolutionized religion by claiming that access to the Heavenly Father is through Jesus not through the Temple (see John 14:6, for example). Jesus is the True Temple, because it is in Him that we meet God.
However you regard what your Temple offers, or claims to offer, it attempts to replace Jesus with a building.
Since Christ finished His work on the cross, your Temples are utterly redundant; in fact they are a road-block on a person’s journey of faith in Christ.
You oppose the message of Jesus and His followers and you undo what He has done.
Ralph and Sub, What if “temple worthy Mormons” complain about giving their “tithe”? Example: Husband-“My lazy sister can’t make enough money to pay her bills so I have to give her money this month so she doesn’t get kicked out of her apartment.” Wife-“Yeah, we better get a blessing for this, I already pay ten percent.” Husband to wife-“You only get a blessing if you give joyfully.” Wife-“Oh yeah. Then I want to help her out.”
Same temple worthy Mormons talk all kinds of trash about others, but are both addicted to prescription anti-depresants, pain killers, muscle relaxants, and sleeping pills. Are they really temple worthy?
I’m asking a serious question because I need to get my friends some help. If I have to use the LDS hierarchy and threat of not reaching the CK to get them clean, then I will. I’m a little miffed that the angels guarding the temple didn’t stop them from going in, and I’m even more miffed that all of their smithian family and friends, to which their drug use has to be even more obvious than it is to me and my wife, have not confronted them.
Besides the fact that I believe that all the stress of trying to be “worthy” contributed to the beginning of their drug use and leaving the church would be the best thing for them, are there any suggestions? Interesting enough, I was having a beer with a JackMo and his wife and they brought up the huge problem of prescription drug abuse, especially anti-depresants, in the women of the church. Apparently it’s really bad in Utah where they just moved from.
“People do not have to go through the temple to gain salvation. They just need the ordinances. This is done by proxy for those who were not able to go through the temple in this life.”
So ordinances must be done for some to be saved (spend eternity with God)? Where does it say in the Bible that people get a second chance in Heaven, how is that them showing their faith if it’s by proxy?
I believe that I don’t need the ordinances I just need Jesus. That He died to pay for my sins while I was still a sinner (Romans 5:8)(not after I checked everything off my faith list) and that He can see my heart to know my faith, the rest of the world will see my actions and know that there is something different about me…I’ll tell them that I no longer fear not measuring up because Christ already proved my worth when He performed the only ordinance needed for me to enter into His kingdom with Him, a sacrifice for my sins.
I also don’t understand why you think the Catholic church corrupted anything…seems like a system that kept the congregation trying to follow a strict code of ‘faith proving’ laws and put a buffer between God and the people would have been right up there alley.
I believe that God is Holy and I am a sinner with no power to overcome that. I trust that Jesus died to pay for every single one of my sins. I acknowledge his finished work and ask him to fill me with his spirit and save me from my sinful nature. I am completely saved (if I had died in that moment I’d have spent eternity with God). I no longer have to worry about myself, the future, and meeting my needs because I have complete trust that God will meet them (don’t twist this, I’m not suggesting divine welfare but that when there doesn’t seem to be enough I know that God will provide)and I can live life more abundantly showing the love and forgiveness shown to me to others so that they too might come to know freedom in Christ. I pray you come to know true freedome in Christ!
I’d say that in some ways, Mormonism is the New Catholic Church of old. Except for the fact that Catholics actually believe in the Biblical Living God and His Christ. When I was a Catholic (a whole bunch of years ago) we had all kinds of rules and regulations. The hypocricy of the system is what drove me out of the Church as a twenty-year old kid. The disconnect just got to significant for me to keep up faith in the system.
Eventually I found the Living Jesus. I didn’t have to mess with a religious system anymore. My salvation was based on my one-on-one relationship with the Father through His Son Jesus Christ.
I guess that’s why even today I won’t/don’t join a church or attach myself to a religious group. I’m not recommending it for anyone else, but human organizations have a way of messing up the simple message of the Cross. I like to think of myself as a member of the mystical Body of Christ which consists of all of those who have received God’s gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus’ perfect sacrifice.
If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. Why people want to attach themselves to a law binding religion that has no power to save is beyond me. I would tell Mormons, “Run fast. Run far. Run into the arms of the Father. Find comfort and rest from all your ‘doing’ which are useless works with no power to save your soul.”
I think it is disingenuous to keep repeating (as Ralph does) that “you cannot understand what we teach.” smithism is surely not some big mystery that is incomprehensible to anyone who is not a member.
What smitians are denying is the language of the cult. Smith has applied his own meanings to things to twist them from what they were originally intended. Then, (in most cases) the members look down their nose at those who have left (apostatized) from the cult.
No one is claiming that smithians don’t love the Jesus they have created, it is just not the real Jesus. If someone were to worship the sun, and say that the sun has certain characteristics and intelligence, and that the sun has communicated to them by some spiritual means that they must set up a certain system to gain eternal life, and to reject that system is damnation – then those that know the true characteristics of the sun (that it is a star) would try to tell them that no, you are praying and worshipping something and living a set of rules laid down by something that has no meaning – because the sun is just the sun.
A person can love the sun all they want. They can be sincere about it, but it won’t change the fact that the whole belief system is skewed because the faith is being placed upon a faulty belief.
Again, it all comes back to smith, and how he changed God, how God should be worshipped, and how God’s teachings should be applied in our lives.
grindael,
Ralph’s claims of “you just don’t understand” are pretty typical “in group” claims that cults make. These folks claim for themselves a special revelation and super spirituality that on the one sense is incredibly naive and on the other hand very self-serving. It’s the old exclusivity of the message that only the chosen few can really comprehend. What he’s really saying is that a person has to be duped into buying the cults program to really understand it.
Mormonism is very easy to understand. It’s the same old tired routine that’s been hauled out by countless false prophets over the centuries. What’s funny is that it’s always a special revelation and the founder always ends-up having his way with the ladies of the cult. It’s the same thing over and over again. The fact that Mormons don’t catch on to the scam is what’s interesting.
The level to which folks will allow themselves to be duped is fascinating. And the spin is just constant. I really do LOL when I hear these conspiracy theories of the Catholic Church leaving things out that would really prove Mormonism as true. What a farce! I would think that Mormons would catch on after a while to the preposterous lies they have to tell themselves to keep the delusion going.
I think it is interesting that the evangelical critics will cheer the attack on the tax-exempt status of the LDS church even if it means the disintigration of their their own tax-exempt status. Any complaint about the LDS church’s tithing system and tax exemptions is also a complaint against religious funding in general. But EVs cannot keep themselves for showing their glee at any hurdle placed in the way of the Mormon church.
Not unlike the debate about same-sex marriage. EVs seem to enjoy seeing the church attacked for its support of traditional marriage.
This seems to me so weak and lacking in integrity. Get a backbone and stand for something without qualification. Your refusal to acknowledge the good in the LDS church and your insistence on always painting them negatively at any cost may contribute to the ruin of your own religious foundation.
Would you rather have a godless, anti-american, marxist president than a Mormon president? Would you rather see the LDS church persecuted than traditional marriage upheld? Would you rather see the LDS church lose it’s tax exempt status than retain your church’s own tax exempt status?
By the way, I find the double standard in what is “moderated” here very problematic and hypocritical. Please try and remain a little neutral in what is deleted.
OJ Said, “Would you rather have a godless, anti-american, marxist president than a Mormon president?
I would not want either!
Would you rather see the LDS church persecuted than traditional marriage upheld?
I like to see the LD$ org. exposed for their true self. Banning Gay’s from getting married does not change that they are going to be gay, if you thing being Gay is wrong, stopping them from getting married only persecutes them. Allowing them to get married does not diminish the value of Traditional marriage.
Would you rather see the LDS church lose it’s tax exempt status than retain your church’s own tax exempt status?”
I would like to see the LD$ org. lose it’s tax exempt status solely because they have oppressed individuals for over a century, and any other tax exempt organization that does the same, like, Moonies, JW’s, Sciencetology…
There is not a logical correlation between any of the ‘than’ statements that OJ makes. Those are not the only two choices that we have.
It’s apparent that OJ would have us believe that if we follow the path we are currently on, we will inevitably end put with an undesirable situation (As a nation.
Fear tactic alert!