A sermon on forgiveness by our very own Martin_from_Brisbane.
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I loved that bit about the idolatry of forgiveness, Martin. I remember a time when it was an idol of mine… (back before I was with the Forgiver). Thanks for publishing this. Nice job
Great job Martin!
You sound a little “high church” to me. That is definitely not a black holiness pentecostal church!
I noticed your accent? You’re not from Mississippi are you? That’s a poke at my buddy Andrew Watson, who despite his years in the desert of Nevada, hasn’t lost his southern boy distinctive way of speaking.
Keep up the good work. The Holy Spirit is blessing you with significant revelation!
Great job, Martin. I love your Oz accent and speech patterns! And I appreciate your perspective on things. I visited the church website, but you are not listed as staff. Are you on staff somewhere? Are you a paid clergy? (sorry, couldn’t resist that poke at ourselves…)
I think the point of forgiveness is that we are by nature sinners separated from God. The only solution to our lost condition is to accept the gift that God is offering which is salvation through the cross of His Son Jesus Christ. We cannot save ourselves. Our condition is hopeless, but there is hope offered to us through God’s mercy and grace.
It’s true that people might sincerely think themselves to be following Jesus Christ and yet, due to heretical belief, be lost. Consider the following:
1. Not everyone who acknowledges Jesus as Lord will be saved. (Matthew 7:21)
2. Many who claim to acknowledge Jesus actually believe in “another Jesus” and are either deceived or are deceiving. (2 Corinthians 11:4) Many who speak of faith in “Jesus” have an understanding of who and what Jesus is that differs so much from reality that in truth they do not have faith in the real Jesus at all.
3. Those who are zealous in religious matters are not necessarily saved. The Pharisees were extremely zealous in missionary work, but all they succeeded in doing was leading more people into their error.
4.No human being truly seeks for God unless God’s Spirit draws that person; therefore, those who appear to seek for God but do not come in God’s way are not seeking for God at all. When people seek God, it is only because God has first “sought” them and drawn them toward him by his grace (Luke 19:10; John 6:44; John 15:16).
5. Anyone who truly desires above all else to know the truth about God and his way of salvation can and will be saved.
The cost of abandoning heresy is usually great-the loss of friends, the embarrassment of admitting error, the threat of the heretical teachers that all who leave their teaching will be lost.
But salvation is available for anyone who by God’s grace puts truth (and the One who is truth) above these things.
(attribution: “Orthodoxy & Heresy; a Biblical Guide to Doctrinal Discernment”; Robert M. Bowman Jr.)
From the “Compact Dictionary of Doctrinal Words”;
“Forgiveness” is one of the most significant characteristics of God in Christian theology. Christian theology teaches that when a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior his or her sins are wiped clean, forgiven by God, never to be held against him or her again (Hebrews 10:17). Jesus’ death on the cross was God’s gracious gift whereby our sins are forgiven. That promise is sealed in the further gift of eternal life. Just as Jesus rose from the dead, so we too will live eternally (Romans 6:1-11). We are told that because God forgave us, we should also forgive others.
I “feel” really good about this but that doesn’t make it true. It’s true because of what God clearly reveals to us in His Holy Word the Bible. The very nature of God is holiness which is why our sin separates us from Him. His love and mercy is extended to us despite the fact that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Having been saved by the Blood of Christ we walk in a newness of life. Our spiritual reality has changed.
Thank you Martin for the insights you gleen
from the Scriptures.
Ward asked “Are you a paid clergy?”
No, I’m a paid engineer. This is all voluntary. However, I have studied theology by correspondence course.
…and if anyone comments on my accent, let me assure you that I don’t have one…
Seriously, thanks for your comments.
Martin,
Thank you, mate.
Martin,
I enjoyed listening to your message – great insights. You’re a great lay minister. I’m sure the staff at that church is glad to have parishioners like yourself. I only wish that this message could have been delivered last weekend at the LDS General Conference for the Mormons to hear instead of watching Jeffrey Holland cry “crocodile tears” while begging the world to please believe that the Book of Mormon is true. He cried so it must be true, right? When I was a kid I cried when I watched the Disney movie “Where the Red Fern Grows” and had a “burning in my bosom” as a youth so it must be true! My wife had the same experience watching “Castaway” with Tom Hanks. It took me the longest time to convince her that the story wasn’t true. Fiction is fiction and the BoM is religious fiction.
It would be great if a transcript could be printed out of your message and have it slipped in the front of every issue of Spencer Kimball’s “The Miracle of Forgiveness” at LDS Distribution and Deseret Bookstores. I see that the Mormon posters have decided to sit this one out on not responding to this thread. I’m sure they don’t know what to think. Mormons won’t hear this kind of teaching in their ward talks or at BYU lecture series. Hopefully this message will hit home with some visiting lurkers who haven’t seared their conscience to Joseph Smith’s gospel.
I liked that part where you referred to the Jews on the roof as “blokes” and the sick man they lowered down as their “mate” – good stuff. I love the accent and dialect.
Falcon,
I’m glad you like my accent. After living out here in the desert for 16 years and then my years in the military I thought my accent was gone. I guess our God brought me into contact with you to let you know that life does exist south of Wisconsin! I’m sure if there was a “do-over” in this life you’d want to have the privilege of being born and raised in the South! Love ya in the Lord, brother!
No sure of how one would consider Christ as the Garbage Collector, interesting.
1). Feel Godly Sorrow
“For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.” (Psalms 38:18)
2). Confess to God
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” (D&C 58:43)
3). Ask for Forgiveness
“And it came to pass that I did frankly forgive them all that they had done, and I did exhort them that they would pray unto the Lord their God for forgiveness.” (1 Nephi 7:21)
4). Rectify Problems Caused by the Sin(s)
“And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.” (Exodus 22:12)
5). Forsake Sin
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13)
6). Receive Forgiveness
“Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.” (D&C 58:42)
Regards, Richard.
I just want everyone to know that people in the upper midwest DO NOT have accents. Just watch the movie “Fargo” and you’ll know what I mean…. “You Betcha”.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about man’s separation from God because of sin and then our reconciliation to Him through His efforts not ours. This is God’s love and mercy on display. The Gospel is a demonstration of God’s kindness and benevolence to us, who while yet sinners, Christ died for us. It would be something indeed for someone to give their life for a good man, but God gave His life for us who are poor, wretched and miserable in our sins.
In Genesis 15:6 there is a verse that reports the following: “Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” To seal His promise to Abraham concerning his “seed”, God had Abraham sacrifice some animals and split them in two. In those days a covenant was sealed by some type of ceremonial exchange between the parties. A blood covenant was the most serious. The two people involved would walk between the split animals showing that a life or blood was the requirement of the contract. In this case God caused Abraham to sleep and God alone passed through the sacrifice. It was a unilateral contract depending only on God.
This is the same thing with the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. In reality, we should be hanging on that Cross. But God took our part on Himself. It goes like this; “This is the sign of the New Covenant in my Blood.” Salvation is a gift that we neither can earn or deserve. It is offered to us as a free gift. Receiving this gift through faith in the qualified Savior results in our redemption. This redemption is accomplished through Jesus. Not any Jesus will do!
Coming to an understanding of who God is, is essential for salvation to be effective as is an understanding of His revealed Gospel. Just any Gospel will not do.
When those “mates” that Martin was talking about, lowered their friend through the roof to get to Jesus, my guess is that their goal was to get him healed. It sure would be great to have friends like that! And Jesus did provide that healing but the healing was ancillary to the man’s real need which was to receive forgiveness for his sins. Jesus, being God, understood the man’s real condition and his real need. Demonstrating His authority as God, Jesus forgave the man his sins but also provided for his physical need.
Now the Bible doesn’t tell us that the man “did” anything to achieve this miracle except to take extraordinary measures to get to Jesus. We are also reminded of the woman with the issue of blood who basically clawed her way through a crowd to get to Jesus to touch the hem of His garment. When she did, she was healed and Jesus knew that His power had just been accessed by someone because He said, “Who touched Me?” His disciples replied by saying something like, “Lord there are people crushing all around you trying to touch.” But the woman’s faith that Jesus could deliver her from her infirmity resulted in her healing.
We are all damaged goods. We all have a need for a miracle in our lives and the most pressing of needs is that for the forgiveness of our sins. We can’t get ourselves forgiven through our own efforts to live a better life. Our good deeds don’t cover for our bad deeds. There are plenty of atheists who are very moral people. But they still sin, just like all of us do.
The only solution to man’s dilemma is to seek after the Savior’s forgiveness. By receiving God’s gift of eternal life, through faith, we have peace with Him and the assurance of (eternal life). The biggest distortion of the Gospel is the faith-plus formula. That is that salvation is incumbent in some way on our good works. There are those who fail to understand that our good works don’t secure anything for us. Nothing but the Blood of Jesus can offer us security.
I’ve never met anyone, man, woman or child, who wasn’t a sinner by nature. Everyone that I know is a “natural” when it comes to sin. I’ve often wondered why, when I accepted Jesus as my Savior and by so doing received eternal life, why God didn’t change my nature. When it comes to sin, I’m still a natural. Now least anyone think that the falcon lives a life of total debauchery, let me put your mind to rest. When I came to Christ, my behavior changed, but my nature didn’t.
At the moment of my expression of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, God declared me righteous. Faith is the mode by which righteousness is achieved.
In a way, I don’t battle my sin nature that much because the pressure is off. When that ugly sinful nature pokes its head up, I can declare victory over it because of the cross of Christ. I’ve always wondered what Paul meant when he wrote that those of us who are in Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its lusts and desires. As far as I can tell, the flesh doesn’t go away. It’s always lurking. Lurking? What a great word.
“Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.'”
Crouching and lurking I think are synonymous. In order to “master” sin, we need first to be aware of a new reality. That is if we’ve trusted in Christ for our salvation. That reality is, because of faith in Jesus we are new creatures. The old has passed away. All things are new. I think I’ll celebrate that right now. YIPPIE!!!
One of, if not thee major point here is that Jesus had the “authority” to forgive sins. He had the authority because He was/is God. Impostors don’t have authority hence anything they claim carries no weight. The Biblical Jesus claimed by Christians met the two basic requirements as the source of salvation.
First of all He was/is able to save. See: Hebrews 2:18, Ephesians 3:20, Second Timothy 1:12, Hebrews 7:25, and Jude vs. 24. Secondly Jesus is willing to save. See: Matthew 8:2-3, First Timothy 2:3-4 and Second Peter 3:9.
Jesus is the source, center, and sum total of salvation. See Zechariah 9:9, Luke 2:29, Luke 3:5-6, Acts 4:12, Romans 1.16, Titus 2:11, Titus 5:9.
Salvation is always by blood (Hebrews 9:22) This blood must be innocent, shed, and applied. Salvation is always through a person (Thessalonians 5:9). Salvation is always by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Finally the Greek word “conversion” refers to repentance meaning a “turning from”; and faith a “turning to”. Repentance is not turning over a new leaf, it is not remorse and it’s not penitence, the act of attempting to make up for one’s sins through good works. Repentance is a voluntary and sincere change in the mind of the sinner, causing him to turn from his sin. True repentance involves the turning from one specific sin, and that sin is the rejection of Christ (John 16:7-11).
God is not primarily interested in convincing a sinner to give up smoking, swearing, drinking, and illicit sex as bad as these things are because giving-up these things won’t save anyone. The great sin which will eventually condemn someone forever is the rejection of Jesus Christ.
Is a newborn infant a sinner?
If not, when does a person become a sinner?
Repentance is not penitence?
How so? the entymology of the two words is fairly clear that these two terms are synonymous.
Both with the same origin as “penance” which is actually a “sacrament” or offering…more importantly it is the ACT of confession of and the absolution of a sin. All of which are acts of reparation.
Forgiveness as means of “justice” is absurd. Is it being claimed here that God needs some sort of justice for our sins?
Forgiveness and Salvation are two different topics.
Olsen Jim
like the catholics, yes the EV has accepted the DNA of Adam and therefore are not born into sin but rather born as a sinner. Free Agency is gray here.
A REASONABLE REQUEST
I’d like to suggest a challenge to the LDS out here.
GIVEN that you don’t know what the Bible is about (no use arguing this, because by what you write, it’s obvious, and I’m not trying to be rude)
I’d like to challenge you to do some kind of a good Bible study.
I could suggest a couple of great studies/Bible teachers, as could about any EV out here, I’d imagine.
The downside for you would be that a serious Bible study takes a long time, and a lot of reading.
The upside for you is that you have covenanted to do just this: study your Bible. So by doing a real Bible study, you’d be living up to your covenant.
Bonus: If you do a Christian Bible study, you can ascertain for yourself if the study is trying to mislead you, or not, by becoming more acquainted with the Bible and therefore coming to a place where you understand if the “study” honestly displays the Bible or not.
Are there any takers on such a venture, as to try to find out more about the Bible, and study it with someone who really understands the Bible?
I hope each one will seriously consider what I’m saying here, and why they might answer “no” to such a proposition…
Dear Jim,
> Is a newborn infant a sinner?
While a newborn has not yet had a chance to do anything good or bad, it has a sinful nature.
Psalm 51:5 — Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Sin is the manifestation of that sinful nature. We are separated from God by our very nature.
setfree
who could resist such a disdainful offer. Yet it seems to be forgotten that Mormons already study the scriptures in a “Christian Way”.
Your comment above is not so much “rude” as it is arrogant, which may be worse. It is also possible that what you post shows a complete lack of Biblical insight, but what is the positive in anyone pointing it out?…remember thy log my friend.
Brian
our vey “nature” the ambiguity on this board is entertaining to say the least. So your premise is that God created you to be seperated from Him, intentionally? thus being a “natural” condition.
Psalm 51:19..me thinks the “bull” is already being offered.
Open Questions
it seems that the atonement will once again creep into this topic. Falcon and others seem to have a rather ambiguous use of the atonement. I would be curous as to what exactly the Ev (on this board) view the atonement as? I mean it seems that people will fall into one of three categories, right? Either the atonement was moral, an example for us, or the atonement was a sacrifice to God or to Satan made in our stead.
So Ev posters, which atonement do you subscribe to?
Is the atonement at all rlevant to “forgiveness”?
Brian,
So would you say an infant is guilty of sin? What happens if an infant dies before they understand the gospel? Do they go to hell?
Setfree- that is about as condescending a post I have seen you make. Does a Jewish Rabbi know nothing of the Bible because he comes away with a different interpretation? Please.
You said “The downside for you would be that a serious Bible study takes a long time, and a lot of reading.” Could you make a more arrogant statement? Don’t answer.
Should we compare degrees? IQs? If a person had significantly more education or degrees than you, yet still interpreted the Bible differently than you, you would probably dismiss them as following a “false gospel” and label them “haughty” or “proud.” If a person disagrees with you and has less training, is it a result of their lower intelligence or lesser education?
I and other LDS study the Bible meticulously and strive to follow the Holy Spirit. You simply cannot accept that others who put a lot into understanding the scriptures could disagree with you. This is quite petty. You are asking LDS to study the Bible from somebody who agrees with you. Why don’t you take a course from Truman Madsen or Hugh Nibley, etc. (unfortunately both are dead)? You might learn something.
By the way, I wouldn’t bet that I and other LDS haven’t read just as many (or more) non-LDS Christian authors and books on the Bible as you!
Martin,
I enjoyed your sermon.
I found myself liking you more than I did previously based on these lifeless posts.
I think this would probably be true of all of us.
Do you think that some day we will be embarrassed at the tone we too often take in all this bickering?
I second setfree’s request.
Mormons basically know what they’re told not only about Mormonism but certainly about Christianity. I’ve often thought about what it would take to untangle the mess of fractured information the Mormon posters have regarding the Bible, Christian history and Christian theology. But they don’t seem to have much of a desire to learn because a proper understanding would have them bolting from Mormonism.
Take the remark about a baby sinning. Go and pick-up a decent theology book and read what it has to say on the topic and then pursue some other Christian theologians past and present and compare their thoughts.
I know it’s so much easier and it sounds so hyper-spiritual to claim continuous revelation; and talk about a head trip!
Falcon
since you are astute at all things Biblical, which is apparently from your “decent” theology books and since you claim Mormons will not answer direct questions how about you lead by example and answer these?:
How is it Forgiveness has anything to do with God?
What if any role does the Atonement play in Forgiveness?
And exactly where in the Bible is an infant said to be “clean” if it dies in infancy, before it has “accepted” its golden ticket but yet is still sinful?
with all you talk here, will you answer? avoid? distract?
Falcon,
I have included your previous quote in its entirety because every single word is in line with LDS doctrine. I have put a portion of the quote in caps to show the where I believe your doctrine falls short. All that we do is based on RECEIVING by faith.
“Salvation is a gift that we neither can earn or deserve. It is offered to us as a free gift. RECEIVING THIS GIFT THROUGH FAITH in the qualified Savior results in our redemption. This redemption is accomplished through Jesus. Not any Jesus will do!
Coming to an understanding of who God is, is essential for salvation to be effective as is an understanding of His revealed Gospel. Just any Gospel will not do.”
Brian,
“While a newborn has not yet had a chance to do anything good or bad, it has a sinful nature.”
I’m not so sure I understand this statement. It almost sounds antichild, and antihumanity. All creatures by nature want to survive, and that often means competition. In the plant world, many plants are equiped with poisons, thorns, deep roots, doing all they can to ensure their continued existence, and that of their species.
The best survivors will be very agressive, and rather a ‘pest’. Take dandelions or blackberries for example. I read a book about psychology, and it had a chapter on ‘difficult people’. It mentioned that a very difficult, demanding child is often the one which is the most equiped with special talents, and the strongest psycholgical defenses. I don’t have children, but I have noticed that there is a lot of truth to this statement.
Setfree,
“Are there any takers on such a venture, as to try to find out more about the Bible, and study it with someone who really understands the Bible?”
So this is the only definition that an Evangelical can really take. Finding out more about the Bible means to accept the interpretation of someone who REALLY UNDERSTANDS THE BIBLE, which is, of course, that ev’s understanding. So it is a great offer, but it’s a no win proposition. If I don’t agree with you, then I still don’t understand the Bible. Understanding equal agreement and that is the only terms you will accept.
I have a different plan. I suggest we all take the Bible and read a chapter daily and then go to our secluded places and ask God (surely He understands what is really being said) what the doctrine really is. Forget about your preconceived definitions and limitations on revelation and just ask the source. I’m sure you would be amazed at the results.
Sub,
“Forgiveness and Salvation are two different topics.”
I would think these are different aspects of each other, and so closely linked that one couldn’t talk about one without the other.
The sacrament of confession, and the expression of a state of repentance by external signs is one which drew criticism. Especially as far as this ‘process’ as being ‘transferable’ in the form of indulgences.
Thats a potential problem which can arrive out of thinking you can do something to make up for a particular sin. Grace and works were the major topics of Martin Luther in the protestant reformation. Evangelicals for the most part side with Martin as far as salvation is by grace alone.
http://wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/INDULGE.HTM
I think its amazing, that if this was still a common idea, all one would need is a credit card, and log into a site with some organization or person who is granting indulgences. Some person or organization that has an ‘excess’ of good works! It kind of reminds me of the selling carbon credits, thats todays ‘indulgence’. I believe that some people bought indulgences in advance!
To Everyone,
There is a question I have. Did jesus pay the price of sin for everyone, or just for those that have/would/ or did accept him as the savior of mankind?
Atonement:
‘For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures’ (I Corinthians 15:3, 4).
Enki,
So that atonement or reconciliation is to be reunited with God. So the question is, what did the Atonement accomplish? Reconciliation, Greek-English Lexicon tells us means “exchange, esp. of money; change from enmity to friendship, reconciliation; reconciliation of sinners with God.
The word redemption literally means to buy back, that is, to reacquire something you owned previously. Hmm, rings of Predestination.
“But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh” Deuteronomy 7:8
Let it be known all you Evangelicals, the atoning blood of Christ can be applied as well as rejected, we can refuse it or take advantage of it. Christ died for all, but he first gave us the gift of agency, allowing us to choose our own fate. If we receive it, then we must live up to all covenants we make for the day of Atonement was the day of covenants, and where do we find all the ordinances, in the Temple.
Did Jesus pay the price of sin for everyone? yes, but he can force no man into Heaven. The standard guide to the Atonement is the Gospel of John. Four solid chapters, 14-17, are devoted to showing that the Atonement is literal; it is real. Please give yourself the opportunity to read, ponder and pray the scriptures and let God reveal the power of the Atonement and Christs cleansing blood.
Regards, Richard.
HankSaint commented
Hank,
What I am concerned about here (and you probably share my concern) is a message of “cheap grace” (to use a cliche).
I found this a tricky issue to address, because its easy to slip into snobbery. The diagnostic, I think, is when we start to say that someone else doesn’t deserve Christ’s forgiveness as much as we do because we’ve done this or that, or we’ve given up this or that, or they will squander what was so freely given.
Consider the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the position of the son who stayed home (Luke 15:28). Notice that Jesus does not actually give us a “cut and dried” answer. In the quintessential style of Biblical story-telling, the parable does not give us a prescriptive solution to forgiveness, but rather it describes the landscape within which we explore the issues of forgiveness. Notice how we can identify with the prodigal and the stay-at-home simultaneously, but its the stay-at-home who really needs to get to “know” the Father. What does that say about us Church-goers?
So, I think that we should not stand in the way of someone else’s appeal to Christ for forgiveness on the basis that he or she is likely to squander that forgiveness. How many times have you or I squandered the Father’s forgiveness and gone back to our particular sins?
So, how should we view forgiveness?
Surely the answer lies in considering what the forgiveness is for? As I tried to explain, forgiveness is not just so that we can be forgiven; its so that we can return to a meaningful relationship with the Forgiver. Now, the Forgiver is Holy, and any sustained relationship with Him must surely lower our tolerance for our own sin.
My point is that we will not really get to “know” God if we only treat Him as a divine garbage collector. He’ll take out our garbage, sure enough, but the Immanuel also wants to come and live with us (Rev 3:20).
Olsen Jim commented
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I’ve got to hand it to the current Pope for hitting this nail on the head. Whilst still Cardinal Ratzenburger, he gave an address at the Regensburg University that got the Moslem world up in arms. The illustration he gave was an exchange between the Christian Emporer of Constantinople and a Moslem emissary about the legitimacy of using force to promote the Kingdom of God.
I can’t remember the details, but the Cardinal’s point was that you can’t build the Kingdom of God by using ungodly means. That has stuck with me ever since.
If “ungodly means” include faithlessness (the opposite of integrity), spin-doctoring, dishonesty, blind prejudice, unshakable self-assurance, snobbery etc, then I agree with you.
However, “ungodly means” also includes being too eager to please, courting popularity at the expense of God’s express Word, attempting to marry enemies (diametrically opposing messages), and claiming to speak on God’s behalf whilst ignoring what God has said.
I’m sure we’ll continue to “bicker” this side of eternity, just as I am sure we’ll regret some of the things we have said. However, it won’t be doctrinal uniformity that will unite God’s Church; it will be the worship of Christ, the Lamb of God (see Rev 7:9-10).
But, that pre-supposes that our “doctrines” actually promote the worship of Christ and so, we come full circle to the nature of God. On this issue, I don’t think anyone can fully “sound the depths” of the nature of God, but the bare minimum should be the capacity to worship Christ as fully God, as the first Christians did (see Mastt 28:9, Luke 24:52, John 9:38 etc).
Enki commented
Well said.
The Christian Gospel is a “total package”; we get the “whole thing” right at the start, including forgiveness, salvation, redemption, new birth, a new identity and a new ancestry/inheritance. The Church is God’s “new creation”, called into being out of the chaos and darkness of the world in a type of ex-nihilo creation. Christ gives Himself completely to her; He doesn’t accumulate within her by degrees. Dividing forgiveness from salvation is like dividing Christ from Himself.
DOF,
Here’s your problem. You need to define who Jesus is. Tell me who the Jesus is that LDS folks are putting their faith in for the forgiveness of sins. Only a qualified Savior can offer forgiveness. The Jesus of Mormonism is not a qualified Savior. Only God can forgive sin. The Mormon Jesus is not God.
Enki and Martin,
“Forgiveness is to set a prisoner free, and to realize the prisoner was you.”
This quote has always struck, to me, at the heart of why we are commanded to forgive.
Forgiveness is covenant we make with Our Heavenly Father wherein He is then bound to “Forgive” our sins, or rather our “debts”. This covenant must be ‘chosen’ by us, and this choice is made in faith, because Forgiveness is an ACT of faith.
So, once again, we see that our salvation is tied to our “works”. If we do not achieve certain actions through endurance, He is not bound to reciprocate. This is fundamental and is well illustrated in the Lord’s prayer with regards to this very subject.
Matthew 6:14-16
Mark 11:25
Forgiveness is a choice, a choice made many times throughout our life.
So, in other words, since it has been admitted by our Ev friends that Forgiveness is bound to Salvation and that Forgiveness is obviously a covenant requiring Work, then yes our salvation is dependent on Works.
Our Heavenly Father has made it abundantly clear that He will give Forgiveness where it has been “earned”, and that earning is a lifelong endeavor.
falcon
nice dodge on the previous questions, i offer some advice on rebuilding your creedence:
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Martin,
Most controversial is our differences of Salvation being a free gift or is earned through good works. In reading and studying the BOM we find that without grace there is no salvation:
“For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” 2 Ne. 25:23. So the issues is what is GRACE?
Answer is again in the BOM: “Mercy cometh because of the atonement” (Alma 42:23).
Again the issues is why? Why the atonement? Are they rooted in the belief that, primarily because of the effects of the Fall and original sin, humankind has an inherently evil nature?
What do the LDS teach? The fall of Adam made Christ’s redemption necessary, but not because the Fall by itself made man evil,
but because of transgression. We find in the Restored Gospel and in Moses the following: “the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt”; therefore, Adam’s children were not evil, but were “whole from the foundation of the world” Moses 6:54.
Because of transgression, Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden into a world that was subject to death and evil influences.
“every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” D&C 93:38.
Works? “after all we can do” 2 Ne. 25:23. Could we say that meekness, and lowliness of heart, “a broken heart and a contrite spirit” Ps. 51:17 qualify and “If ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; . . . then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ” (Moro. 10:32—33).
Richard.
Problem, problem, Hmmm.
“Here’s your problem. You need to define who Jesus is. Tell me who the Jesus is that LDS folks are putting their faith in for the forgiveness of sins. Only a qualified Savior can offer forgiveness. The Jesus of Mormonism is not a qualified Savior. Only God can forgive sin. The Mormon Jesus is not God.” Falcon.
Need to define Jesus? I thought that it was pretty clear who Jesus is, one only had to read the Bible. Hence, I believe in Jesus, He who redeems us.
Oh well, some want to believe what the critics lamely spew out:
Ankerberg, John
Baer, Dick
Decker, Ed
Howe, E.D.
Hurlburt, Philastus
Martin, Walter
McKeever, Bill
Nelson, D.J.
Tanner, Jerald and Sandra
White, James
“Many of the authors promote criticisms that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be “the definitive” book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors’ integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.” Mossier and Owen.
A lot of heartache and misery could be avoided if only we could understand and take to heart the difference between law and gospel.
God’s law condemns us. Everyone. We are sinners without hope, for every single person falls short of God’s law. Some may claim to keep God’s law – this leads to puffed up hypocrites as seen in the New Testament and in our world today. Others are broken by God’s law, defeated without hope, unable or unwilling to recognize the redemption purchased by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross which is a gift of God received by faith – His great mercy. Salvation solely belongs to Jesus Christ, there is no salvation in anyone, any work, any thought, any love, any purpose, ANYTHING other than Christ’s crucifixion for our sins and resurrection. The law serves to crush us and turn us to Jesus. The gospel offers the completed work of Christ on the cross as a gift from God. Any work we do that we think merits God’s favor or we think has ANY role in our justification (being made right before God/saved) denigrates Jesus and destroys the gospel. It turns our hearts away from God to ourselves and our works. This is the gospel preached in the scriptures. Instead of challenging God and thinking I can comprehend and fulfill the law, a true understanding of God’s law and our own sinfulness causes us fall before Him and seek His mercy. God has provided the sacrifice for our sins – we cannot add our own ‘good’ works to His perfect sacrifice and still understand or apprehend what He has done for us. I know I need the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus. I cannot depend on loving God with all my might – then my redemption depends on me and my love for God. Lord, help me, a sinner – have mercy upon me.
mobaby
it seems abudnadantly clear in the scriptures that faith without good works is dead, and i would assume that good works without faith suffers the same fate. one can not exclude.
you speak of sacrifice, who/what was this “sacrifice” offered to?
You claim that redemption was “purchased”, who offered it up for “sale”?
You seem to imply that the Atonement was either an offering to satisfy God or Satan, and surely God does not demand ‘justice’, does he?
please, clarify
back to the topic
Forgiveness is choice and a covenant, right?
Mobaby,
That was beautifully written, and much more tactful than my earlier comment. Thank you.
Sub, OJ, HS/R, DotF,
When I made my challenge to you to do a Bible study, I said nothing that I would have not said and want to say(and have, in similar ways) to my very best friends and family members.
Did you hear me say that I should be your teacher? I did not say that.
I have many teachers. I consult a variety of sources. Why? Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. Each has their own focus.
You folk have put your trust in what Joseph Smith came up with, as far as the BIble is concerned.
Can you see that it is in your self-interest to investigate what someone besides him or a follower of him may know about the Bible?
Hypothetically speaking, if Joseph Smith is wrong, and your faith is placed in him, such as it is, then you have a lot to lose by not figuring out the Bible by hearing what others have to say.
I don’t go to the same church as anyone else here. I don’t listen to the same teachers. I don’t read the Bible with them, or compare notes with them when I study. Amazingly though, we come up with the same ideas.
The LDS are at a distinct disadvantage for having been handed the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C at the same time (generally speaking), so that you think that they all go together, and you try to make them go together when you read them.
Bible teachers outside “the church” take the Bible by itself, and thus don’t try to make it fit LDS thinking.
I truly believe that all of you would be blessed by a Bible study, and hope that you will put your pride and your disdain for me and my thinking aside while you go ahead and consider again if you may not possibly be blessed by doing such a thing as really getting to know your Bible from someone outside LDS-ism who knows it.
subgenius,
Who were the sacrifices offered to in the scriptures? Read through the OT and it will be clear. God Himself became that sacrifice to wash away our sins. The temple priests consumed the sacrifice. Today, we consume the sacrifice for our sins in the bread and wine, the body and blood of Christ offered for our sins. Behold the lamb, that takes away the sins of the world. God does not need my ‘good’ works to complete the task – he has fulfilled the law perfectly and become the sacrifice for us. Jesus said “it is finished.” The Lord has completed everything needed for salvation. To say otherwise does not give Him the honor and worship, but rather puts our own works up as worthy of honor.
Surely, no one gets to heaven without good works. Are those good works part of justification? Do they make me right with God? Absolutely not. We must do good works – but they have nothing at all to do with salvation or meriting God’s forgiveness.
Setfree,
You labor under the misguided notion that the evangelical Protestant “interpretation” of the Bible is the only valid one. The Roman Catholic Church, other apostolic Christian faiths,and the LDS Church have a considerably different perspective on what constitutes Chritianity.
It is worth repeating Olsen Jim’s comment: “Does a Jewish Rabbi know nothing of the Bible because he comes away with a different interpretation? Please.”
In the words of Setfree, I’d like to suggest a challenge to the evangelicals out here.
GIVEN that you don’t know what the Book of Mormon is about (no use arguing this, because by what you write, it’s obvious, and I’m not trying to be rude)
I’d like to challenge you to do some kind of a good Book of Mormon study.
I could suggest a couple of great studies/Book of Mormon teachers, as could about any LDS out here, I’d imagine.
The downside for you would be that a serious Book of Mormon study takes a long time, and a lot of reading.
The upside for you is that you have covenanted to do just this: study your Book of Mormon. So by doing a real Book of Mormon study, you’d be living up to your covenant.
Bonus: If you do a Book of Mormon study, you can ascertain for yourself if the study is trying to mislead you, or not, by becoming more acquainted with the Book of Mormon and therefore coming to a place where you understand if the “study” honestly displays the Book of Mormon or not.
Are there any takers on such a venture, as to try to find out more about the Book of Mormon, and study it with someone who really understands the Book of Mormon?
I hope each one will seriously consider what I’m saying here, and why they might answer “no” to such a proposition…
[attribution to Setfree]
Crispin, is that a “no” as well, to my challenge? or is it just the best you could do to not answer?
sub,
Missed your point. List your questions and I’ll be glad to answer them. I think sometimes our Mormon friends miss the answers on purpose. It’s easier to feign a lack of being answered when the real problem is a lack of understanding. I’m pretty patient so I’ll walk you through anything you don’t understand.
How do Mormons know that Joseph Smith’s god has the power to forgive sins? Well Joseph Smith told them that he had “visitations”. Conveniently for Smith the religious entrepreneur, these visitors told him that everything about Christianity was wrong but now he would get the real scoop. Interestingly enough, he changed his story so often that’s it’s pretty difficult to get a real read on what this new but often changing revelation really is.
I’m going to encourage our Mormon friends to expand their horizons some and start thinking outside the Mormon box (which consists largely of mottos, slogans and a bunch of “I knows”). I would suggest as Setfree did that Mormons get into a good Bible study, purchase a couple of good solid texts on basic Christian theology and also pick-up a book on early Church history. Now there’s danger here because the information you’ll find will run contrary to the rat-a-tat-tat bilge you get down at the wards.
There’s a real benefit of course, you’ll start thinking bigger thoughts and being more thoughtful and introspective. It’s like moving to a higher plane. On the other hand you could just keep going to sacrament meetings and repeating the robotic Mormon creed that holds no truth but provides comfort and security……but no salvation.
HS/R pointed out that the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism) teaches:
“IF ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ…”
Of course, last time we did a check-in on all-y’alls perfection, and how it was coming along, you all said “nope” you weren’t perfect.
So, just wondering, are YOU, Richard, TODAY, in a place where you can say that you have denied yourself of ALL UNGODLINESS????
Why, oh why, do you guys want to stay with a system in which you can never be good enough?
OJ said: “Does a Jewish Rabbi know nothing of the Bible because he comes away with a different interpretation? Please.”
um.. this is what I’m talking about. In the NT, Jesus refutes those Jewish Rabbis for having studied the OT, and still not recognizing Him as its subject. Thus, you and any Jewish Rabbi who does not see Jesus as the SUBJECT, the “end-all-be-all” of what the Bible is about, is missing the point. (This according to Jesus Himself, you see?)
Forgot something earlier. HS/R said “The word redemption literally means to buy back, that is, to reacquire something you owned previously. Hmm, rings of Predestination.”
Redemption http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G629&t=KJV
When a Hebrew could not pay for, say, his land, he could go to a kinsman-redeemer. This k-r would pay the debt that the other could not pay.
That is what “redeem” means to the Jew. Jesus was the Redeemer, because He paid the debt they could not pay.
I debate whether responding to some of these pathetic, condescending posts is appropriate or worth the effort.
Setfree, Falcon- I have spent years studying the writings of the patristic fathers, the pseudepigrapha, apocrypha, and writings of the jewish historians. I have studied textual criticism from almost entirely non-LDS authors. Not to mention savoring the text of the old and new testament. I would easily say that the bulk of the research I have pursued has involved non-LDS sources. But I realize I still have much to learn- there is so much I do not understand. There are so many who know more than me.
But I find it so childish and ignorant for you to make the claims you do. I honestly feel like I am corresponding with young children.
You seem to have so little to learn. I wonder what it would feel like to know everything there is to know about scripture- I can only imagine.
You absolutely cannot deal with somebody disagreeing with you. That is sad. If insisting on dismissing somebody with whom you disagree as only getting information from the “rat-a-tat-tat bilge” obtained “down at the wards” makes you feel smart- have at it. (This coming from somebody who claims to know a lot about the BOM, yet has not read it once).
falcon- how do you know the “God you worship has the power to forgive sins?” Please tell me. Was it something you read in a book?
Jim,
have you yet denied yourself of all ungodliness? because only after you have is Jesus’ grace sufficient for you.
If you haven’t, will you by the time you die?
What makes you think so?
Are you yet ready to give up your glory-to-self so that you can be saved to the utmost through Jesus, all glory to God?
Why do you keep embracing a system which will never allow you to make it to heaven?
Olsen Jim
it is futile to ask Falcon questions, because for all his rhetoric he prefers to stay in the shadows.i will re-post the questions, as falcon requested, because he “missed” them by having no ability to scroll up. they will still go unanswered.
Falcon
as requested:
How is it Forgiveness has anything to do with God?
What if any role does the Atonement play in Forgiveness?
And exactly where in the Bible is an infant said to be “clean” if it dies in infancy, before it has “accepted” its golden ticket but yet is still sinful?
by the way, i came from a “christian” church, already been down your suggested path of study and found it to be too diluted, pendantic, and self-serving. Mormon church must closer to Truth. I would suggest you try our church and our books in the same manner you suggest, and stop obsessing about JS, you would probably be more effective if you do.
mobaby
not sacrifices but rather the Sacrifice, who was JC offered up to? (not for)
Richard, who are Mossier and Owen? I may be ignorant, but I have never heard of them, nor could I find any books that they had written. You seem to quote them a lot, but you should realize that if they are authors who try to harmonize Smithism with Christinity, they have little standing in the Christian community. Please remember: The Christians who post here read and understand heretical Smithian source materials and don’t care what Mossier and Owen believe. You can point out that they believe we are using things that have been proven “untrue”, “discredited”, etc., but until you burn the BoM, D&C, and renounce JS, etc., you will forever be apart from the Christian community. Period.
On the other hand, I have read many books by Dr. James R. White, whose work is well researched and documented, and he doesn’t just write about Smithians. He is a well respected theologian, Seminary Professor, debator, etc. A search also quickly turned up books by Bill McKeever and Jerald and Sandra Turner, whose works have led countless thousands, count them, thousands, out of the false religion of Joseph Smith.
If I am just ignorant of the authors first names and I will be able to easily purchase a book, or books, by them, please provide the source so I can evaluate them. I’m starting to think that you are just cut and pasting quotes from Smithian materials easily found online.