The Day of Forgiveness

A sermon on forgiveness by our very own Martin_from_Brisbane.

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162 Responses to The Day of Forgiveness

  1. Martin,

    It’s good to see what you look like. FYI When Ratzinger/Benedict said those words he was already the bishop of Rome a.k.a. “The Pope”.BTW, you do have an accent, but it is great. You should do voice over work. Also, I love aussie slang.


    Are you aware that some of the people on your list have been dead for some time? What is the point in bringing out the Mossier and Owen quote? Who defines when a point is sufficiently refuted? When has James White refused to interact with Mormon scholarship?


    What is your take on Titus 3:5?

    “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”

  2. Enki says:

    “…but rather the Sacrifice, who was JC offered up to? (not for)”

    Thats curious, isn’t this the part that is the same for Mormons and evangelicals? Christ was an offering to god. As odd as it sounds, wasn’t it he making an offering to himself? To pay the price for sin. That is the part about justice.

    In the evangelical view, as I understand it, christ is the only way to return to god. And it must be the correct view of jesus, and all doctrines must be correct, as that gives you a clear picture of who jesus is.

    The LDS idea of degrees of glory isn’t in line with what they think is the correct view of Jesus. You can’t be a good hindu and not go to hell. In the LDS view a good hindu could obtain some degree of glory, dependent on their degree of knowledge and how they applied it in life. To evangelicals…no.

    As I understand it the LDS view christs sacrifice was universal, keeping all but the sons of perdition from going to hell. (outer darkness)The three degrees of glory is sort of a ‘bonus’ to this universal salvation, dependent upon works, and how closely a person has applied knowledge into their daily life and actions.

    I am not sure about the evangelical view, but salvation appears to not be universally applied.(people in large numbers will be going to hell)There are also no degrees of glory, there being only one heaven, and there is nothing you can do to get there, other than relying on his grace.

    In LDS doctrine complete salvation is dependent upon works and grace. Which doesn’t quite make sense to many people. But contrast that with religions which do not have a savior to cary your burdens. Jainism for example has karma, and there are A LOT of things one must do to pay and work off the karma. Extreme fasting, a strict vegetarian lifestyle, meditation, perhaps yoga, charity. In theory one could obtain liberation in onelife time, but most likely it will take many.

    There is a conspiracy theory about jesus on the cross, but t

  3. subgenius wrote

    Our Heavenly Father has made it abundantly clear that He will give Forgiveness where it has been “earned”, and that earning is a lifelong endeavor.

    The paralyzed man in the story got his forgiveness right then and there; on the spot, with nothing more that Jesus’ say-so.

    What did he do to “earn” his forgiveness?

    In fact, what could he do?

    Can you begin to see the authority that Jesus has? When He says a person is forgiven, then that person is forgiven. Period. There’s nothing that anyone can add or take away from that forgiveness, not even the one who has been forgiven.

    Did you hear what I said about the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees?

    What do you think it was that angered them? I’m tending to move away from the idea that they were just a bunch of mean spirited kill-joys (though I wouldn’t entirely dismiss the idea). Why would they be in Galilee if they were only interested in denying forgiveness to their fellow Jews?

    There’s a better fit if we suppose that these Pharisees were interested in seeing their brothers and sisters actually get forgiveness. Their problem was that they could only countenance forgiveness happening within their own religious framework; in particular the work of the Temple. Read what 2 Chron 7:12-16 says about the Temple, and you’ll begin to understand their rationale (and understand how Jesus is the True Temple in this context).

    Now, here comes Jesus offering forgiveness without any reference to their Temple. That’s why they call it blasphemy. Effectively, Jesus says that the ultimate authority for forgiveness resides in Him, not in the Temple. He is greater than the Temple (Matt 12:16).

    Your convoluted logic attempts to reverse this actuality by placing Jesus’ forgiveness under the authority of our [religious] works.

    Like the pharisees, I fear that you proclaim God-Scripture-Forgiveness, but you’re on the wrong side of the conflict between them and Jesus.

  4. LARRY CLARK says:

    I’d like to comment on the “infant death” question. God is righteous and just and his judgments are pure. Deuteronomy 32:4 “He is the rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” Psalms 19:9 “The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” Psalms 96:13 “Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with is truth.”
    How dare anyone question God’s judgments. This is why the LDS baptize for the dead – God can’t handle things without men’s help. Psalms 49: 7-8 “None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: For the redemption of their soul is precious (and it ceaseth for ever), Isaiah 38:18 “For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down unto the pit cannot hope for thy truth.” Hebrews 9:27: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:” Ecclesiastes 9:5: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
    Sorry, but the sarcastic “Infant death” question, is nothing but questioning the Holy, Righteous and Everlasting God!

  5. grindael says:


    (i know who they are) The book is ‘The New Mormon Challange’ by Francis Beckwith. Carl Mosser, Paul Owen and Richard J Mouw are Editors. Description from Amazon:

    Written by an international team of respected Christian scholars, this freshly researched rebuttal of Mormon truth will aid those sharing the gospel with Mormons and those investigating Mormonism on their own. It will help readers to accurately understand Mormonism through biblical, historical, scientific, philosophical, and theological discussions.

    Hope this helps

  6. falcon says:

    Our Mormon friends seem to miss the most important part of the NT. We are told that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We don’t perfect ourselves and then get saved. That’s the point. We can never make ourselves acceptable to God by our futile attempts at personal perfection. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice because he was blameless, sinless, perfect without blemish. The OT tells us that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
    It’s our acceptance through faith of Christ’s perfect sacrifice which secures for us our salvation (through faith in Him). Even after we receive this gift through faith and are spiritually regenerated we are stuck with our sinful nature, the Old Man. But we are told to walk in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the flesh. This we do out of gratitude for what God did for us through His Son Jesus Christ. However the reality is that we sin daily in thought, word and deed. The process of sanctification, that is changing our behavior, is on-going. If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with God and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

  7. subgenius says:

    Larry Clark
    The point has been intensely made by the Ev that every person is born a sinner, born unclean. And the absolute only way to be clean, the absolutley only way to receive salvation is through “acceptance” of JC. Many times this has been stated and stated without excpetion. Now, not only do you claim to have insight into what God’s judgement may be, but also that Salvation actually does come to those who do not ask for nor seek after it.

    though your talk was entertaining, it left many things on the table.
    Matthew 6:15 is fairly clear about the covenant of Forgiveness…so is Mark 11:25. So while JC offers forgiveness without reference to the temple, this offer is still conditional.
    The paralyzed man “earned” his healing by Faith, which Jesus, in that scripture, calls out in reference to this healing act. JC does not heal the man simply because he is paralyzed, but because JC has seen the measure of faith.

    Even with His calling of Matthew he expresses His desire of Mercy, and when He heals the blind, it is not solely by His hand but “according to their faith”. Which is a blatant reference to the measure of things….yes, the measure. Which clarifies my point, not only about Works, but also about the covenant of Forgiveness.

    i have never claimed nor implied that works are more important than faith, or vice-versa. I have maintained that faith without works is useless as is works without faith. The two are inseperable with regards to salvation.

    JC offered up to God in our stead? You claim that God commanded justice in order to “justify” His offer of Forgiveness, or salvation? LDS teachings, even with an emphasis on Gethsemane, share the sunbtitution and satisfaction concepts of the Atonement (yes, part catholic part protestant).
    You Hindu go to hell analogy seems to contradict the notion that God will judge the sin infant with forgiveness but the foreigner will recieve none, though neither have come to JC.

  8. HankSaint says:

    Falcon, at what age, or is there an age that redemption does not cover? Can a severely mentally handicapped person sin? Do all those before the time of Christ have salvation? Do those who are in places that the Gospel is not taught die in there sins?

    Hmmm, interesting that you so far have deflected from answering.


  9. grindael says:

    In his book the Miracle of Forgiveness prophet spencer kimball says this:

    “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pp. 206-207)

    Paul says this:

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    That is why Paul was so confident of his salvation, even in his weakness:

    “But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9


    “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Rom. 10:9)

    The difference here is striking. I’ll go with the truth – as revealed by Jesus Christ by Paul, who knew Him.

  10. grindael says:

    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
    2 and He Himself, is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

    This covers about everyone. The concept of mercy, and Jesus as Advocate comes into play here. To go to extremes and bring up questions that have a common sense answer is disingenuous. Smithians baptize for the dead, and stress works because they need everyone to believe in their set of rules (thus a NEED for their church).

    Jesus satisfied the demands of the court of heaven regarding the payment of sin needed to redeem mankind. Period.

    Good works flow out of faith and belief in Jesus. There is no set of rules, because that puts upon men the burden of sin which Jesus “satisfied” with his sacrifice. God judges what is in every man’s heart. I’m not Paul, nor does God expect me to be him, or accomplish what he did. But we all must strive, to the best of our ability to do the best we can given the light and knowledge we have in Jesus.

    His grace is sufficient, even in our weakness. Are there basic Christian tenants that we should live by? Of course there are. These are guidelines for our lives. Virtue, honesty, love, etc. These come with the redeeming power of the Saviour. The gospel is simple. That is the beauty of it. Petty rules and regulations have never been necessary for salvation. It covers everyone. The true church of Christ is alive, 2 Billion strong.

  11. HankSaint says:

    To all our Catholic visitors and friends, what have the Evangelicals to say about you. Are we to say, then, that Roman Catholicism is not Christian because it does not subscribe to the doctrine of salvation by grace alone?

    One of the canons at the Council of Trent

    “If anyone saith that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sin for Christ’s sake alone; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified, let him be anathema”.

  12. HankSaint says:


    Don’t you just wish the following verse would just go away, it is so problematic for Evangelicals. 🙂

    James, make it clear that saving faith can only be recognized through works: “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17.)

  13. grindael says:

    That verse is there for a reason. Because some perverted the doctrine of Christ believing that you could call on Jesus and then do whatever you want, and justify it by the grace of God. There is no set of rules (works) to be saved. Like I said in the post earlier:

    Good works flow out of faith and belief in Jesus. There is no set of rules, because that puts upon men the burden of sin which Jesus “satisfied” with his sacrifice. God judges what is in every man’s heart. I’m not Paul, nor does God expect me to be him, or accomplish what he did. But we all must strive, to the best of our ability to do the best we can given the light and knowledge we have in Jesus.

    If you read James in context, he was talking about rich men who get preferential treatment when they come into church. If you claim to be a christian, you will show the same respect to the poor man as the rich. Therefore, James says:

    But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. (by helping the poor)

    There is no conflict here. I can still “do” on my level, and the grace of Christ, with his Advocacy Power, takes care of the rest. I can’t help all the poor, but I can be kind to those who I come in contact with. This is what James meant. Not a system of RULES you must follow to gain entrance into heaven. Faith without works is dead, because you never really believed. But calling upon Jesus and being changed inside is all you need. The rest will follow.

  14. HankSaint says:

    Who is talking about rules, Mormons are covenant makers. Baptism is a covenant, Temple ordinances involve covenants. Mormons have never claimed that works will bring salvation. It is the living up to and being obedient to the Covenants we make at Baptism, and our renewal of those Covenants at Sacrament. Show any Doctrine we preach that states we must work our way to Heaven?
    Please provide a list of rules?


  15. grindael says:

    I get the feeling you are in a state of denial hank. I hope this will clear things up for you.

    off the top of my head:

    Pay 10% of your income
    no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco
    pass worthiness interview once a year
    wear special underwear
    do not question mormon authority
    get married early
    have lots of children
    serve a two year mission
    marry only a man who has served a mission
    marry only a mormon wife
    attend ALL church meetings
    accept ANY calling bishop gives you
    fast once a month
    dress code in church
    keep your hair short (if you want to be a GA)

    Now these are touted by mormons as voluntary, but the pressure is there to live by this set of rules. No temple recommend if you do not! (for most of them) This is enforcement. Also not Christian.

    “There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation” (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
    “All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected” (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ”, LDS tract, p.28).

    Spencer W. Kimball states: “however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 207); “Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 153); “living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation…trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164-165, 354-355).

  16. HankSaint says:

    Obedience — The act of obeying.
    Rules — To be in total control or command; exercise supreme authority.

    Pay 10% of your income —– Obedience
    no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco —- Obedience
    pass worthiness interview once a year —–Obedience
    wear special underwear —- Obedience
    do not question mormon authority — not true, (confirmation)
    get married early — Ridiculous
    have lots of children— More Ridiculous
    serve a two year mission— Choice
    marry only a man who has served a mission— Choice
    marry only a mormon wife— Choice
    attend ALL church meetings— Obedience
    accept ANY calling bishop gives you— Choice
    fast once a month— Choice
    dress code in church— Choice
    keep your hair short (if you want to be a GA) —- Ridiculous. 🙂

  17. grindael says:

    Still in denial. Did you not read the words of YOUR prophet, spencer kimball? There is a difference between smithism and christianity. Smithians believe that grace saves us only to be ressurected. You must follow every RULE (the ones you put choice on included) to gain the exaltation.
    This means being with God in your celestial kingdom. If you don’t follow the RULES you can’t go to the temple. If you don’t go to the temple, you cant get your endowment. If you dont get your endowment you dont learn all the secret handshakes, the blood atonement oaths (oh did they take those out?) and the passwords to get by the angels that guard the gates and you are banished to the telestial kingdom or outer darkness. According to ALL Smithians, you cannot gain your exaltation without “complying with the works of the gospel.” You want to have it both ways. To be a little god, you MUST do those things. It is UNSCRIPTURAL and RIDICULOUS. 🙂

  18. Hank,

    We do not wish that passage would just go away just as we do not wish any part of the Bible to go away.

    Let’s assume for a second that your interpretation is right. We could simply engage in the same type of proof-texting that Mormons engage in rather than dealing with the text at hand. You have no good explanation for key passages by Paul like Titus 3:5 and Romans 4:5-9. If you want to pit scripture against scripture here (I do think they are in agreement this is just for the sake of argument) then you would lose. More verses point to what we are saying (ones that Mormons have failed to engaged with) by an author (Paul) who has written more of the Bible than whichever James wrote the epistle by that name. Also, Pauline books have a stronger historical attestation and acknowledgement than the book of James. Some of the ancients did not accept James as scripture. In short, one can have a New Testament without James but one cannot have an NT without Paul.


  19. That being stated this passage does not hurt but rather supports our doctrine. A faith without works is a dead faith, and one questions whether it is faith at all. Just as demons make the mental assent that God is one so too something more than mere “belief” (commonly called head knowledge) is required. Works are *necessary* but they are a by product of true faith and not the faith itself. Also, the works themselves are not to be done in conformity to some system but rather as a true act of faith. The writer states, “ For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”. Hank are you keeping all of the commandments? Do you speak and act as one who is under the law of liberty?

    Mormons love to talk about how “works” are necessary, yet readily admit that they do not always do the right thing. Indeed, I can “show you my faith by my works.” There is no other way that faith can play itself out then by what we do and do not do. But you show a lack of faith by not doing all of the commandments (and by telling others that they must do the same yet you do not do all of them yourself). Why the difference? You are under a different code then I am. I am already a sheep and thus I live by the shema and the golden rule. You are a goat striving in vain to obtain the righteousness of God. You renew your covenants every Sunday because you continually break them. If you would just followed through on what God has already told you (fulfilling commandments via “works“) this would not be necessary. You’re a covenant breaker. Indeed, you have been “bewitched” as some of the Galatians were.

  20. mobaby says:


    You are right, the Roman Catholic Church has anathematized the gospel (the good news of the completed work of Christ on the cross for our sins – whereby faith and forgiveness is given as a gift by God). So, either our faith in Jesus and His finished work of the cross is an anathema, or their rejection of trusting Christ alone for salvation, and putting their trust in their own works to merit God’s favor along with Jesus work on the cross is an anathema. (This is what everyone must look at the scriptures and determine what God has said and revealed.) Any time we trust in our own works for any part of salvation we deny that Jesus death and resurrection was enough and we turn our eyes from God and His mercy to our own merit. This destroys the good news of gospel and makes our faith all about us.


    That is my answer – who were the sacrifices offered to in the OT? Jesus fulfilled all the law, and God Himself became the sacrifice for our sins. He truly has taken away ALL of our sin, and given us the gift of living eternally in the presence of God. Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us deplorable sinners, and our sin is imputed to Christ. Our sins were laid upon Jesus on the cross. The sacrifices of the OT were looking forward to the final fulfillment in Jesus. The blood on the doorposts in Egypt looked forward to the blood shed by our savior. Sin and Satan has been defeated and cast down. The work of salvation in complete.

  21. subgenius says:

    Titus 3:5 scripture is simply meaning not by works alone, it does not say mean in lieu of;
    because James 2:17 would certainly be in conflict with Titus would it not?

    if JC sacrifice has done what is claimed by the Ev and furhtermore assures that the sinful infant and the adult Hindu are saved, then nothing more needs to be done, the LAW is dead, salvation is guaranteed, even if you do not know JC or have the feeble mind of a baby, your are saved, thus rendering works irrelevant…..OR is it that Faith requires evidence and good works are the evidence of Faith?

    The Atonement is the gate, but the path must still be travelled.

  22. setfree says:

    your referring to Jesus as “JC” makes me think you have contempt for him. Do you?

    The questions you pose (like those just above) are the very reason why you should undergo a serious Bible study.

    You may not think so, but we’re arguing with the Bible out here, and you are arguing AGAINST it.

  23. setfree says:

    On second thought, I want to reiterate this question:

    Why do those of you who don’t trust the Bible use it at all to prove your point? How can the parts you are using be trusted?

  24. Sub,

    In that passage works are contrasted with mercy. It’s not on the basis of “deeds”. I don’t see how anyone can get around that.

    Look at what I wrote to Hank on this subject. If they cannot be reconciled (which they can) then you got to go with Paul. However, they are in harmony and as such they teach that works are part of the Christian life but spiritual regeneration is a gift of God.

  25. Mike R says:


    You said, “Who is talking about rules,Mormons
    are covenant makers….Mormons have never
    claimed that works will bring salvation…”

    I was reading thru some tracts that I have.One
    is by the Utah Christian Tract Society, it
    contains the testimony of Carolyn Sexauer,
    she was a Mormon for over 30 years before she
    was saved by God’s grace. She quotes two LDS
    authorities she had come to respect:

    “As stated in,’ A Compendium’, by Apostle F.D.
    Richards and Elder J.A.Little,’ Redemption from
    personal sins can only be obtained through
    obedience to the requirements of the gospel,
    and A LIFE OF GOOD WORKS. And as Elder E.F.
    Perry, in ‘The Scrap Book’ says,” The gospel
    of Jesus Christ is called the plan of salvation.
    It is a SYSTEM OF RULES by complying with which,
    salvation may be obtained”.

    She concludes these statements by saying,”What
    chance had I?”. Apparently, she chose to accept
    what the scripture said at Eph.2:8-9,especially
    verse 9, instead of what the LDS authorities

  26. HankSaint says:

    Hmmm , thou shalt not murder, commit adultery, steal, lie, etc.
    So my good friends, works, rules or a commitment to obey?

    Problematic, rules or covenants?

    Works: ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life. (Mosiah 18:8–9)

    Our covenant relation with the Lord:

    I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you. (Mosiah 4:6–8)


  27. HankSaint says:

    Rules: Obedience is more then specific rules to follow. To know what the Lord expects is understanding the Covenants we make. Covenant making is more then rules or formulaic behavior.

    richard. 🙂

  28. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub. All I did in my post this morning is quote the word of God.
    Your comment: “Now, not only do you claim to have insight into what God’s judgement may be, but also that Salvation actually does come to those who do not ask for nor seek after it.” — I didn’t claim anything but quoting God’s Holy Word and I didn’t comment on Salvation at all. I thought you were more of a Genius than this. You have been told, many times, on these forums what salvation consisted of, I didn’t need to re-state it.

    But if you please, I’d like to ask you about salvation from the LDS Church. While I was a member, salvation consisted of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Good Works, and following the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (don’t know if that’s changed or not) My questions are (1) What must I do to work the works of God and (2) Just how many Laws & Ordinances are there? Thanks in advance for the reply – I’m always interested in reading your posts, I just don’t post that often. Take Care, Larry

  29. subgenius says:

    the reason myself, and others use JC is because our posts here are restricted in length, much like saying OT and NT. To most this is obvious, unless one is trying to impose prejudices.
    I have never made any statements or implications that i did not trust the scriptures, because that would false. Myself and my church openly and privately embrace the scriptures, properly translated. Am i skeptical of your brand of translation, not necessarily, but sometimes, and sometimes i am just skeptical of their application.

    The most glaring difference in views of salvation are simple here:

    Evangelicals obviously view salvation as an event in the past
    Catholics tend towards salvation being an event in the future
    Mormons seem to view salvation in the present

    Not one single rebuttal for “Faith without works is dead” from the Ev…, yes, it is blatant that you need faith but you also need the work…its simple, why fight it?
    Though you may be “saved”, you will be judged by your works before “salvation”
    Revelation 20:10-15
    2 Cor 5:9-10
    1 Cor 3:11-14

    James 2:24

  30. setfree says:

    sub, will you accept the challenge to do a good Bible study?
    one that’s not Mormon-biased?
    that’s where you would (hopefully) learn for yourself these questions you are asking.
    it seems like the ev’s can answer and answer, but no one ever hears…
    so, will you?

  31. subgenius says:

    see the scriptures for answers to your question #2. There are quite a few specific ones, but the best strategy is to Love in all things you do, and strive to put others before yourself. For guidelines on “Love” see also scriptures.
    Question #1 kinda confuses me, maybe you could reword it for me?

  32. mobaby says:


    There is no salvation apart from Jesus. A hindu does not have faith in Christ alone for salvation. Does an infant have faith? I cannot answer that question. However, God is both just and holy so I know that whatever the outcome for a child who should die in infancy, it is right.

    There are numerous scriptures that attest we are saved by grace through faith and it is NOT of ourselves, but is a gift of God. If you read on further from Titus 3:5 it’s right there.

    The law convicts us of sin and destroys any confidence we have in ourselves and the gospel draws us to Jesus and the free gift of forgiveness. The law also shows us how we are to live as Christians. We must obey God – his law is not optional. We are to worship only the one true God. We are to have no idols. We are to honor our parents. All of the law is given first to be a mirror and reveal our desperate need for a savior. Next it serves to show us how to live. However, our sin stained efforts at fulfilling the law have NOTHING to do with justification or salvation.

    We are saved by Christ, we are being saved as God does His work in our hearts, and we will be saved through the blood of the lamb when we stand before God.

  33. rvales says:

    If you are judged by your works before salvation then how can you be ‘saved’ before your judged? Any works of mine are done because I’m saved and therefore the Holy Spirit lives in me and works thru me. I do not do any ‘works'(I am by nature selfish and sinful) the Holy Spirit works thru me so they are HIS works. My faith is evident because I surrender to God, and allow Him to call the shots in my life (instead of doing it myself) because I have faith that He has got everything under control even when I’m utterly confused. But my salvation is secure even when I dig in my heals and take the lead.

  34. liv4jc says:

    Sub,I have personally answered questions about James 2:14-24 on several occasions. The issue is dead. It has even been answered in this thread. James is speaking of contrasting a profession of faith without works to a profession of faith that has works as evidence. It is the same thing that Paul says in Ephesians 2:10. James is not talking about justification (declaration of righteousness) by God, but justification of a claim of faith before men: “If you say you are a Christian, live like one.” John says the same thing. Do you want to feel challenged as a Christian? Read 1 John. If that doesn’t bring you to your knees and make you question your profession of faith, nothing will.

    Our good works testify that we are saved by God’s grace. End of story. Stop trying to use it as a sledgehammer when it is nothing more than a throw pillow. I will say it one last time. If the works that James uses as examples justify us, then we’ll all start giving food and blankets to the poor, intend to sacrifice our firstborn sons on Mt. Moriah, become prostitutes and hide Israeli spies, and all go to heaven.

  35. liv4jc says:

    David, you read my mind. I was going to write the same thing. If one has to constantly renew their covenants that is an admission that they are constantly breaking them. It reminds me of Christians who make professions of faith at altar calls once every couple of years. The re-dedicate their lives to the Lord, remain in the faith for several months, then return to old habits. Backsliders or false converts? I opt for the latter.

    One day I was reading the OT and came to the day of atonement. I began wondering if a Jew would go to heaven if he had died right after the High Priest had performed all of the necessary rituals. I found my answer in Exodus 19:5-6, Deuteronomy 30:16 and other OT texts. The covenant with Israel never offered personal salvation. The cleansing for sin by the sacrifices was to inherit the land and be a strong nation. Personal salvation has always been by grace through faith: Genesis 6:8, 15:6, Romans 4:1-4,13-15, etc. The law could not accomplish salvation because of the weakness of the flesh. The blood of bulls and goats could not cleanse from sin, etc. etc. etc.

    Men are dead and unable to come to salvatio without the work of the Holy Spirit, otherwise our Smithian friends would see the plain truth of the Gospel written in the Bible, believe and be saved

    Hank, why are you quoting from the BoM? It is not scripture. Why not just quote from and Archy comic book?

  36. subgenius says:

    was not asking a question, or even addressing an issue for you to “re-address”. read for comprehension and you may understand.

    you give the absolute qualification of “no salvation apart from Jesus”, then you begin to backslide, with ‘exceptions’, using ‘just’ instead of merciful, using ‘holy’ intead of loving, and leaving out the all important Forgiveness.
    The Ev must assume an infant knows nothing of the Gospel, whereas the LDS knows the Gospel is what brought him here. Then there is free-agency, etc.
    Point is, we know that if one has not accepted JC in this life then at judgement one is sent away for ‘He never knew you’. So one can be suffer condemnation from ignorance of the Law, the very Law you open your post with. To impose your own “exceptions” without scriptural justificstion is arogant? Nevertheless, Forgiveness can be established and more with the notion of how LDS performs ordinance for the dead, thus giving the Hindu the chance to “choose” the Gospel and even providing the infant with the baptism and knowledge which would allow JC to “know” the child.

  37. HankSaint commented

    Temple ordinances involve covenants. Mormons have never claimed that works will bring salvation.

    If works don’t bring salvation, why waste your time building temples all over the place?

    Perhaps you think that you need temples as a “special place” for the making of covenants. In that case, you should know that we don’t initiate “deals” with God; He enters into covenant with us – and these arrangements are much less a contract between peers and more of a Suzerain treaty (do you understand the difference?).

  38. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub, so you don’t know how many laws and ordinances there are? If you don’t know how may there are, how could you possibly be following “all the laws and ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
    The question you don’t understand is a direct quote from the Bible. John 6:28, “Then they said unto him, what shall we do that we might work the works of God?” The next verse is pretty key and it tells all the works you need to do. John 6:29, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Some people might say, period, end of sentance, any questions.
    Sorry Sub, but we’ve got the word of Jesus here and no one or no church can add to that.

  39. There’s been a fair exchange on the old faith/works topic (again). Instead of sustaining a doctrinal tit for tat, I suggest we tackle the subject from the perspective of the NT narrative.

    I’ll ask the question again; what “works” did the paralyzed man do to get forgiveness?

    One thing is certain, though. Jesus did not say “I’ll forgive you, but only on the condition that you go to the Temple and do xyz. I’ll forgive you only after all you can do”

  40. mobaby says:


    You are making lots of assumptions. An infant may or may not have faith? I do not know – no one does. God does not tell us directly in the scriptures. I am not applying any exceptions. One thing is certain the Mormon system of vicarious works for the dead and opportunity to know God and be saved after death is contradicted by holy scripture. It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgement. If the Mormon system were what God wanted to communicate through His prophets then the Lord He did a misersble job – for scriptures contradict any such notion of endless opportunities after death and temple works of sealings and baptisms for the dead. This is not the gospel preached by the apostles, not even close.

    What is law? Anything we must do to please God. What is required? Perfect obedience. We are condemned by the law for we are condemned by our past and present sins. Anyone who says they are fulfilling the law is bearing false testimony.

    The gospel is the good news that God did not leave us there in condemnation, but took our sins on the cross and offers forgiveness as a free gift.

  41. subgenius says:

    exactly how does one manifest their “belief”? What measure of Faith does Jesus claim to use at the Judgement? Salavtion is not instant or sitting at the right hand would be a meaningless exercise for the Son.
    To simply say “believe” and what it means TO believe are two different things. Faith and Belief are not intangible, they are measured by the evidence of our works…not His work, but our work.
    How plain is the following scripture?
    2 Cor 5:9-10
    I have added nothing to what is already there, in front of your eyes, if only your lids would part.

    The paralyzed man story is not a story of slvation, but of healing. No one is disputing that Faith brings about blessings and healing, which is exactly what happened with the paralyzed man…he was healed by Him because the Faith was known. Nothing is said of Jesus touching someone and saying you are now guaranteed a place in heaven, unconditionally. The OT and NT are ripe with covenants and salvation is one of them.

    I agree that Jesus, in the NT, does not require Temple attendance in order to receive Forgiveness. There are clear requirements for Forgiveness from Our Heavenly Father (noted earlier)….JC also does not say that attending the Temple won’t get you Forgiveness either.

    Romans 13:8

  42. subgenius says:

    Temples in COJCOLDS relevant to Malachi 3:1, we view the Temple as His house. It is also a place for learning, a place for the sacred, and an integral fixture in the rebuilding of the community of Zion. Works are not exclusive to the Temple.
    That being said, works are vital to salvation as is faith. The Ev seems to have trouble reconciling the notion that Faith and Works are BOTH necessary for salvation, and JC is very clear in the scriptures that we both will determine how we are “known” and judged by Him at the right hand, correct?

  43. HankSaint says:

    liv4jc on October 17th, 2009

    “Hank, why are you quoting from the BoM? It is not scripture. Why not just quote from and Archy comic book?”

    1 Peter 3:15 (New International Version)

    15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

  44. HankSaint says:

    I’ll ask the question again; what “works” did the paralyzed man do to get forgiveness?

    Forgiveness is free, one must confess his sins. Would not Jesus know the heart and mind of the paralyzed man. Are you telling me that a verbal confession of faith must be made, how would that work out for those who are deft, mentally handicapped, or to young to understand? Please address the above.


  45. setfree says:

    Most of your replies run far short of 2000 characters. Are you sure you can’t fit “Jesus” in, instead of “JC”?

  46. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub, what you are missing is the simplicity of Christ. 2Cor 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through the subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” Interesting how Paul compares to what happened in the Garden of Eden — Verse 4 (you may want to study this one) “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him? (in other words you might well believe another gospel – sound familiar?)
    What you are doing is not accepting belief and you just got to add something to it – oh works. What kind of works are you talking about? I’m asking for the second time – be specific. I was and it’s not me saying it, I’m merely quoting God’s word and Jesus from the bible.

    It never fails to amaze me the men want to add works to the equation – what works?. They can’t accept the Bible as written. I gave you the answer, to the question you didn’t understand, “What must we do to work the works of God.” However it was not my answer or my idea – all I did was give you scripture that you want to add works to. Tell me what the works are – please.

  47. subgenius says:

    no one is proclaiming “another” Christ.
    Many Ev forget that it is easy to claim that they are the one’s promoting false Gospel and that they are the one’s misled, and that they will suffer the wrath at the end of days. So easy to show how the diluted modern church has strayed so far from the Gospel.
    For it is the LDS that typically adhere to the scriptures and their meanings, whereas the Ev imply and interpret and publish volumes of opinions about the Word. So, Larry, you may be right i should be weary of the Ev that preaches about “another” Jesus.
    Works, are the every day thoughts feelings and actions you create every day until you die. The specifics ar enumerous, but simply put, those done out of Love and those done out of Malice are both recorded in the Book of Life.
    You seem to preach another Jesus, because you do not recignize the Jesus from this scripture
    2 Cor 5:9-10

    what is He judging Larry? what is He judging in this scripture? and what does that judgement mean to your eternal life? Only by Faith do you even get to be judged, because He readily states that without that Faith He will not “know” you and you will be sent away.

  48. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub, what must I do to work the works of God? I thought you might of caught on by now. Since no one else seems to bite on your question – I believe on Him who He hath sent, John 6:29 (THAT IS THE ONLY WORK YOU I OR ANY ONE ELSE NEEDS TO DO)

    Question: Did Mother Theresa, in all her glory, merit salvation (this is the part where the difference in terminology “salvation” becomes a stumbling block), into the n’th degree of heaven? She devoted her life to good works, tell me a Mormon that is even in her league. Oooorr did it depend on what she believed?

    Bottom line you don’t know what works you need to do (a list would be nice so the rest of us unbelievers could have a chance) AND you can’t tell me the number (I don’t mind if you round it off) of laws and ordinances we need to follow – is it ten, fifty, 500, etc)

  49. subgenius says:

    for mother theresea it took both, for you and i, it takes both. Your John reference may be out of context, as i am told by the partner reference about “faith w/o works is dead”. re-read John 6:29 “work the Works”…and NO that is not the only work you are to do, wow how truly lazy and self-righteous is the Ev?
    i have already in at least 2 posts stated what the “works” are…read the scriptures, the list is there..its in the OT and the NT, Jesus taught the works through parable and through actions.

    Your desire to “quantify” how many works are needed is absurd and arrogant, we are told that Jesus will “tally” those and He will decide, it is not for us to say. This is where we differ Mormons do not “count them up” whereas the Ev thinks one is enough.

    since you ignored this in my previous post, here it is again
    You seem to preach another Jesus, because you do not recignize the Jesus from this scripture
    2 Cor 5:9-10

    what is He judging Larry? what is He judging in this scripture? and what does that judgement mean to your eternal life? Only by Faith do you even get to be judged, because He readily states that without that Faith He will not “know” you and you will be sent away.

    will you answer, Larry?…..Larry?

  50. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub – aren’t faith and salvation two different words? I’d answer for you but you may think they are the same words. An applicable partner reference would be Acts 16: 30-31, “And brought them out, and said, Sirs what must I do to be SAVED? (my caps). And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” I’ll be like you Sub, WORKS, WORKS, WHERE ARE THE WORKS?

    The judgment seat of Christ is located in, Rom 14: 10-12 and your 2 Cor 5:9-10 reference. the White Throne judgment Rev 20: 10-15 are two different events.

    The other Jesus that is preached (for there are many – Charles Manson said he was Jesus) since you accuse me of preaching another Jesus, I’ll tell you the definition. The other Jesus was not born of a Virgin, was not born in Bethlehem, and is the brother of satan.

    Sub don’t get mad at me if I quote Jesus directly from the Bible, I didn’t make it up.

    Is this the point where you will start your name calling or pointing out I can’t spell?

    Sub – you are a great writer, and defender of your faith. Are you a convert, or born and raised? I was born and raised and I know from time I was a little boy, breaking off into different rooms when I went to Church, they kept after me to bare my testimony that the Church was true and Joseph Smith was a true profit. The more times you repeated the better you felt about it. Is that how you got your strong faith? Take care, Larry

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