On November 1, 1831 Joseph Smith convened a conference of ten Mormon elders. The agenda for the meeting was to make decisions regarding the publication of Joseph’s revelations. According to an article in Mormon Times,
“Joseph said that since the Lord had given the great blessing of so many revelations, the elders should decide what testimony they were willing to attach to the book. After several present arose and said they were willing to testify to the world, Joseph prepared a statement for the witnesses to sign. The contemporaneous minutes described it as a revelation.”
However, some of the “potential witnesses” had doubts about some of the revelations. They were not prepared to testify to the truthfulness of Joseph’s revelations until God confirmed it. Before they would sign their names, they wanted a spiritual witness similar to that which had been reported by the Book of Mormon witnesses. “The conference was deadlocked.”
But then Joseph received a revelation (Doctrine and Covenants 67). Mormon Times reports,
“The Lord gave a challenge for the elders to choose the ‘least’ of Joseph’s revelations and then choose the ‘most wise among you’ to see if he can write a similar one. If he could, then their reticence over the language was justified. If not, ‘ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true'”
Nobody was able to write a revelation on par with Joseph’s, so five elders (and later thirteen others) signed their names to the document, which read in part,
“We, the undersigners, feel willing to bear testimony to all the world of mankind, to every creature upon the face of all the Earth and upon the islands of the sea, that God hath borne record to our souls, through the Holy Ghost shed forth upon us, that these commandments are given by inspiration of God and are profitable for all men and are verily true.”
I don’t know in what manner the latter thirteen men believed God bore witness to them about the Book of Commandments, but for the initial five, it was under fascinating circumstances.
The men had doubts about some of Joseph’s revelations; nevertheless, when Joseph claimed that God, via another revelation, was granting them a test whereby they could know if Joseph’s revelations were true, they accepted it. The test was highly subjective at best. Could anyone write a revelation like Joseph? For whatever reason–whether because of scruples over falsely claiming to speak for God, or a lack of creative writing skills, or a biased judgment of the results–that group of men couldn’t do it. Hence, the only possible conclusion was that Joseph’s revelations were true. Is this really a sound test of a prophet?
Joseph was not the first man to use this argument to “prove” his position. Muhammad did the same thing.
“While Muslim apologists today tend to focus on supposed scientific evidence for Islam, Muhammad offered a very different argument. The central argument of the Qur’an may be called the ‘Argument from Literary Excellence,’ which claims that the Qur’an is so masterfully written, so brilliant and awe-inspiring in every detail, it could only have come from God. We find the basic reasoning in Surah (Chapter) 2:23-24. It reads:
“And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. (Qur’an 2:23-24)
“According to many Muslims, no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, and the Qur’an must therefore be from God.” (David Wood, Is The Qur’an a Literary Miracle?)
Are you convinced?
The question has been asked, if the Book of Commandments was true, why did it require such extensive revision just two years later (for its publication as Doctrine and Covenants)? Maybe these revisions are part of the reason why, despite the testimony that God bore record to their souls, at least eight of the Book of Commandment witnesses later abandoned the church that is built on Joseph Smith’s revelations.
———————-
Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
———————-
I believe it’s the “Temple Lot” sect of Mormonism that won’t accept anything from Joseph Smith beyond the original Book of Commandments. They see him as having thrown a rod and gone off into apostasy, a fallen prophet. He gives them every indication to believe this since his gross immoral behavior, lies, megalomania, and occult practices nullify his claims as a prophet.
Here are some prophetic errors that we can apply to Joseph Smith and Mormonism:
1. Lack of accountability for prophecies that do not come true or bear witness to the person receiving the ministry. Deuteronomy 13:1, Deuteronomy 18:22
2.The attempt to establish doctrine or practice by revelation alone, a part from clear Biblical support.
3. Dogmatic assertions in delivery of prophetic words.
4. The use of “prophesy” for controlling purposes.
5. Manifesting an attitude of superiority through the possession of a secret body of information (wearing a garment of pride).
Christians have a respect for and a high standard for prophecy based on the Biblical text; First Thessalonians 5:20, First Corinthians 14:39, Colossians 2:18
The standard for prophets and prophesy in Mormonism is so low that just about anything a leader says qualifies until a latter leader says something else and then it’s all attributed to having received more “knowledge and light”. The endless redos in Mormonism gets to the heart of the problem which is the Mormon prophets have no integrity.
It would have been interesting to find out how the names of these guys were discovered. However, that in and of itself may have revealed too much information about how and where some of this historical evidence is.
Here is one prophecy of smith’s that is interesting, I leave if for all of you to decide if he really was a prophet:
“And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that NOT MANY YEARS shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable FOR EVERY WORD I SAY, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, “Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.” Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are THOSE NOW LIVING upon the earth WHOSE EYES SHALL NOT BE CLOSED IN DEATH until they see ALL THESE THINGS, which I have spoken, fulfilled.” (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).
Was the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country prepared? I must have missed it.
Falcon,
It makes me wonder why the Temple lot sect is still in existence. Its one of the smaller branches of the J.S. restoration theology organizations. There must be a reason why its so small, it seems contractory to believe some of the story,and reject most of the rest. That they own the temple lot has been a problem for the LDS movement in general. One branch has the lot, the other has the money, power and influence…except for the temple lot. There are prophecies concerning that which remains to be fulfilled if ever.
A better test might be if you have ever found other works which are more beautiful, inspiring, reguardless if you have written them or not. There is something ‘stopping’ in the idea of trying to create something to be better than someone elses as a competition, or to prove something.
I think chief seattle out did Joseph. A lot of people find inspiration in his speech of 1854. This weekend I met a guy who claimed to related to chief seattle. So I looked up information. Its interesting,because this guy also claimed to be attacked and left for dead, and to be revived by the touch of god, who told him his name was jesus. His personal belief combines traditional native american belief, and some aspects of the christian faith. I didn’t understand it, but just listened.
http://www.halcyon.com/arborhts/chiefsea.html
Enki,
There’s an interesting comparison of the beliefs of the Community of Christ, Temple Lot (Church of Christ), and the SLC LDS. I have a chart here I ran across on the internet doing a search. Joseph Smith’s son headed-up what came to be known as the Community of Christ. They are quite traditional (Christian) in most of their basic doctrines. Speaking of copyrights, who do you think owns the copyright to the Joseph Smith “translation” of the King James Version of the Bible.
Look here’s the bottom line, the SLC bunch really doesn’t want their folks poking around in anything that might “reveal” the truth of Mormonism. When someone has bought something emotionally, they’ll do whatever they can to rationalize their continued faith. The reality pill just gets too big for many Mormons to swallow. It was the same back in Smith’s day right before he got shot. It’s really too bad he did get shot. The religion would never have survived had he lived.
Falcon,
I agree, the LDS people couldn’t be able to view him as a ‘martyr’. In addition there would be that much more revelations and prophecy etc. to examine. Who knows what direction the church would have taken, had this not happened.
Yes, I found that strange even when I was active in the SLC. I remember some more fanatical members that did research on doctrinal statements made by previous presidents in the journal of discourses. I remember that not was not a welcome thing to do, especially not to present it as doctrine, or to provide additional light on current practices. Others were always quick to state that these were not cannonized scripture. I found that strange, because most members considered current statements made in general conferences as modern revelation because it was spoken by a particular authority.
I understand the J.S. translation copyright is held by the RLDS church, which is now Community of Christ. Didn’t the government divide up various copyrights,and various properties?
The weirdest part is the accusation that members make is that apostates only point out doctrinal or historical problems as a way to cover up sins. Or that other people are just being critical and prejudiced against the LDS people. Maybe, but not in the way that they think. They also claim that people won’t be happy, and will continually ‘kick against the pricks’ once they start to criticize the church, spending their life doing something worthless, or even helping to inadvertently advance the cause of the LDS faith.
Writing ability does not make one a prophet. And frankly, even if that were the standard, the Book of Mormon would not qualify. It amazes me that folks would just accept this as a standard for truth:
And it came to pass that many tellers of tales did go forth on the face of the earth, bringing forth an abundance of histories of imagination that did spring forth from within their own hearts. And it came to pass that tales that verily did surpass the tale which Joseph Smith did write. And it came to pass that these writers did go forth with fiction which did surpass greatly the dung which came forth from false deceivers who brought forth lies of abundance so as to deceive even the elect. Receiving the better portion, so as not to deceive, these writers did tell tales to inspire rather than deceive as Joseph Smith and Muhammad did of old. And it came to pass that…
That’s my shot at it –
There is no testing of prophets or prophesy in the Mormon church. Once someone has accepted Mormonism as true, the questioning stops. At that point, everything the leaders say, is true. However there’s the “old guy” clause in Mormonism. That means, of course, that anything an old dead guy said can be flipped by the current live old guy. Mormonism is a religion of transitions. That is, it changes and the changes are seen as the revelation of more knowledge, wisdom and light. It’s perfect because errors aren’t errors, there’s just new information. What a deal!
Now contrast that with Biblical Christianity. We’re taught to question everything when it comes to the prophetic. People who don’t are in violation of the Biblical principle and are vulnerable to being duped. First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 gives instructions on the use of spiritual gifts. In fact the apostle Paul says in First Corinthians 14:1 “Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy…..one who prophesies speaks to men for edification, and exhortation and consolation…..Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.”
First Corinthians 14:29 says “And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.” It would seem to me that in the example given in the article above, the other men didn’t do their job in judging Joseph Smith’s prophetic utterances. Smith was a rogue prophet who needed to be called out and silenced. However these men let him bully and bluff them.
Without exercising the authority to judge and call “prophets” into account, people end-up with false prophesies by men who truly do not have the Spirit of Christ.
Verily, verily I say unto you that unless thou havest a copy of the King James Bible handy thou may notest prophesyeth like unto Joseph Smith, Jun. For he taketh many plain and precious truths and stringeth them together in a nonsencical plethora of words. And behold a great light is coming into the world. The field is white for the harvest and if you knock the door will be opened. For the internet and the Bible and many precious books have been written exposing the fool for what he is.
Enki: I posted this monday on the previous thread, in response to your questions regarding copyright. I wonder if you saw it? It seemed to address a question…
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Talk:Book_of_Mormon
It’s really kind of funny, if it we’re not so tragic. Joseph Smith challenging his home-boys to a prophesy smack down. This guy was a manipulator and conniver of the first order. He knew how to dominate his underlings and they wouldn’t stand up to him. He had insights into human nature about how to play the big con. Were any of these guys going to stand-up to him? I don’t think so! When at least one of the people in Nauvoo said, “enough”, he had violence committed against him. This is what happens when people follow a man instead of following God. Mormons have elevated Joseph Smith to the stature of a man who was intimately connected with the Almighty. He was, in effect, a very clever individual who knew how to play the psychological manipulation game. It’s interesting, Grant Palmer reports that every time Smith got into trouble, his “first vision” story grew in detail and stature. Mormons who find out the history of Smith and the early Mormon church come to a decision point. It’s all a matter of how much Kool Aid a person is willing to swallow.
What is done in nearly every cult is the simple tactic of blame shifting. smith was an expert at this. If you can’t see the angel and the plates, the fault is yours. If you don’t understand the revelations, the fault is yours. If someone made an accusation against me, they are haters. They are jealous. They are covetous. If one of my prophecies doesn’t come true, you were unworthy, the fault was yours. If the ten tribes (where are they hiding ‘in the north’ anyway) do not return and a temple built in this generation, the fault is yours. Even though god himself told me it would happen, if it does not, the fault is yours.
You (who are not of us, who have left us)can’t interpret the revelations correctly, the fault is yours. You don’t understand our doctrines. The fault is yours.
When DO the smithians take responsibility and hold smith accountable for the conniver he was? When will they stand up and say, yeah that was just plain wrong, incorrect, false, and move on? smith laid down the rules of the con-game almost 200 years ago, and they are still being followed. Don’t you FEEL it? If you don’t…hey it’s YOUR fault…don’t you know that?
Here is an interesting quote by another self-proclaimed Prophet, you may find interesting: The parallels to smith are startling:
“Let me get something settled cause you’re gonna hear all kinds of stories about me. Yes. As an Adventist I did fall. She was the most prettiest girl you ever saw. And when she came to that church and got up there, and she sang that song, and she looked at me – right dead at me. And I went to feeling those feelings. I didn’t know anything about the word of God yet. But I knew that she was wearing that dress. She looked like a banana that’s fixing to pop out of the skin. And I said, “I don’t want that.” But I was deceived anyway – cause I heard specifically that she wasn’t gonna be at her fathers house. And her father was the minister. So now you know the story. And ever since then I’m just a devil. Well OK. I’m a devil who knows a little bit more about the Bible then anybody else does.” –David Koresh
no LDS here yet?
liv4jc and mobaby, you crack me up! have you ever seen this: http://www.bookofzelph.com/
?
I seriously cry every time I read it
setfree,
One of my all time favorite websites. It is beyond clever and funny.
grindael,
I’ve come as close to ever to jumping up and shouting alleluia to your post above about blame shifting. Excellent work.
I think one of the toughest things/hooks for Mormons to overcome is this idea that they have and are hearing from God. This is powerful stuff and extremely tough to get past because it makes the person feel so special and connected. I’ve been thinking about writing more about this but quite frankly, I don’t think many Mormons have the spiritual ears with which to hear what I’d say.
Most of you know I got saved during the Jesus movement of the very early 70s; which was also a time of the charasmatic renewal in many mainline denominational churches. It’s taken me literally years to sort through pentecostalism especially the “hearing from God” aspect of having a personal relationship with Christ. I’ve had to discard many things on the road to developing a deeper understanding of God’s personal revelation along with the proper use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Not to go too deeply, but the bottom line is, of course, “voices” come from lots of different sources; many right out of people’s own imaginations. However, “it” can sound very compelling and convincing. Mormons need to take a careful look first of all at who they call “God”. I would ask, “Are you getting your revelations from a god who progressed from his status as a man?” Quite frankly, that’s all I have to know to dismiss Mormonism and Joseph Smith.
The more difficult “prophets” to deal with are those who claim the basic doctrines as orthodox Christianity but who obviously are not hearing from God (even though they think and claim to be).
I have had 30 years to contemplate my removal from smith’s (so obvious to me now) fraudulent claims to prophetic insight.
The problem I see most of those who follow in the train of his ruin having, is that they refuse to look at the abundant evidence that unmasks him for what he was: a very shrewd, invent as you go along leader of a dangerous cult.
There is plenty of black and white evidence to discredit him, but those that believe in him always try to explain it away with the most trivial of excuses. I made two videos that I have posted on You Tube, one on the first vision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPooi2Kfx7o and one one the Kinderhook Plates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeLlOLswyuQ
The comments smithians have made about them are revealing. They will take as scripture some things that William Clayton wrote down for smith, but that he conveyed to him the Kinderhook plates were authentic, they do a complete 180 and say William Clayton was not close to smith at all, that he wrote down hearsay, any excuse to shift the truth from what it was: that smith was fooled by them, and badly.
This is the MO of the smithian church, and they have brainwashed the members to pay no heed to facts, (we Christians have some evil agenda so can’t be trusted to get it right) to question any source that does not come directly from SLC or authorized sources.
When they do look at the facts in their true light, they leave the church. I say this to all the smithians, try on the hat of common sense, and listen to what it tells you. smith saw God in 1820 but later wrote that no one could see God without the priesthood. There are too many to mention. They grasp at straws when it comes to proving the BOM. The devices they have nowadays to look in the earth should have uncovered massive evidence at Cumorah, but nada, nothing, zip. What does common sense tell you? In 1835 he said God is a Spirit, in 1843 he is an exalted man. All I can do is shake my head and pray for them.
The full quote from D&C 67:5-8 says
(bold mine)
The text in bold is one thing to keep in mind. They knew JS and knew that he was not very literate or word knowledgeable, as testified by his wife Emma and others. So part of the ‘deal’ was for their best/wisest to write something similar to what JS wrote in comparison to their knowledge/literacy.
Now who was to be the judge? ALL the men in the room, INCLUDING the doubters – EXCEPT JS. What does the above article say – ”Nobody was able to write a revelation on par with Joseph’s…”
From this it appears that they all tried, not just their wisest. It also states that all the men there, including the doubters decided that no one could match what JS had written. They were the judges of the work that whoever tried to write wrote, not JS. So it was their decision, not JS’s that even the wisest amongst them could not write up to par with JS.
What their criteria were and how they judged the writings I don’t know because I wasn’t there. What ‘stopped’ them from writing on par with JS I don’t know either. But from all the information given they decided without JS and they went ahead with endorsing it – indicating that they did decide for themselves it was true.
This has got to be the wackiest “revelation” I have ever heard. If God is sending down angels to confirm the BOM, confer the “priesthood”, baptize people, etc. Why in the world would He tell a bunch of men to write a book of commandments and compare it with smiths and if you can’t then smith’s must be true?
I am also tired of hearing how illiterate smith was. He was a bad speller, but he did not lack intelligence, he had whole portions of the Bible memorized. He was an expert at manipulating people – and conning them out of their money, time and resources.
He took characters from the Detroit manuscript,
(found by a partner of smith’s father-in-law) said they were from the BOM and gave them to Harris to take to Dr. Samuel L. Mitchill at Columbia. He knew Mitchill had pages from the Detroit Manuscript in his possession, knew they were (at that time) an enigma, and would therefore (smith hoped) look at the “caractors” Harris had and see a resemblance. This, (smith hoped) would be enough to convince Harris smith was a prophet and he would finance the BOM. Mitchill sent Harris to Charles Anthon, and ultimately Harris wound up doing what smith wanted, giving him (smith) money. For an excellent article on this go here: http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2001RBSt.htm
This MO was repeated by smith with the Egyptian papyrus and the Kinderhook plates. That many of the men who were duped by this wacky revelation
left smith is not surprising. He had problems keeping counselors and apostles throughout his life.
smith couldn’t even keep his own ‘revelations’ intact, he made so many changes to the book of commandments that it boggles the mind that anyone could believe that this man was a prophet.
Again, apply common sense here folks. It just doesn’t work.
Ward,
Yes I saw it, thank you for the link. It does address most of the questions I had. Thank you for taking the effort to find it.
Setfree,
That site really is a difficult blow to mormons thats for sure. It seems unkind, but there are difficult issues its pointing out. I honestly don’t ever recall any ‘zelph’ in sunday school, seminary or any other church gathering.
The sadest part to me is having native american ancestry, and being involved in the LDS faith. I met a number of native american LDS people. My mother played this vinyl record, “Lamanite generation” I used to think of it as being so supportive and happy, as the music was honestly lively and uplifting.
However, all my life I noticed that many LDS church members weren’t really culturally aware or sensitive to real native americans. But only to made up stories about native americans. I understand that the BOM is generally appealing to people in South America on the basis that its ‘positive’ about native americans.
But I often found it difficult and often insulting to be referred to as “Lamanite”. I never recall anyone referring to native americans as ‘Nephites’. On two accounts, nephites were really supposed to be a white race, and they went extinct. Laman and lemuel were accused of being slothful and indulgent, they weren’t busy bodies like the Nephites, and the worker bees. I think this is a cultural misrepresentation of some tribal customs such as potlatching.
Ralph,
I started reading a book about drawing. “Anatomy and perspective”. Its amazing that drawing can be so simple or very complex. It does comment about the creative process and being authentic to yourself, experience and style.
“It is useless to imitate the style of the great draughtsmen-to try to draw with the fluency of Raphael or Degas; such drawing is born of rare talent, profound study and observation, and constant practice. Much better to do a less spectacular study, but one which represents first-hand observation.”
I personally have tried to imitate the ‘smoky’ style of Leonardo da vinci. I have a pretty good imitation of the mona lisa in my note book, but only in pencil. Most people might not be impressed, because its already been done. I envisioned doing my own original work in his style, but I found that very ‘stopping’ in the creative style. It was from a different time period, and from another person.
Taking the challenge to make a Chapter like whats in the Koran, or the book of commandments has some similiar properties. The writer immediately has a picture in his/her mind of writing something that sounds like either. The person may be a good writer, and write something better when the pressure is off, and when it comes from personal experience. Its unfair for Joseph or Muhammad to suggest this test after their work is already finished. Do you care to make a better painting than Leonardo Da Vinci? What happens to your creative process when its approached this way?
I think that we should also bring into focus some of Joseph Smith’s other “revelations”. There’s an account written by apostle Orson F. Whitney in 1888. He was the editor of Heber Kimball’s diaries and also his biographer. When this was first published, polygamy was being practice by the LDS church members.
Before he would trust even Heber with the full secret, however, he put him to a test which few men would have been able to bear.”
What was this test. Well it seems that the prophet was requiring Heber to surrender his wife to him. What a guy. What a prophet. What a gross manipulator.
“The astounding revelation well-nighy paralyzed him. He could hardly believe he had heard aright. Yet Joseph was solemnly in earnest. His next impulse was to spurn the proposition and perhaps at that terrible moment a vague suspicion of the Prophet’s motive and the divinity of the revelation, shot like a poisoned arrow through his soul……
“Three days he fasted and wept and prayed. Then, with a broken and a bleeding heart, but with soul self-mastered for the sacrifice, he led his darling wife to the Prophet’s house and presented her to Joseph.”
Well Joseph wept at this proof of devotion and told Heber that he didn’t have to go through with it; this was all the Lord required.
Bottom line here, what does this situation tell us about the thinking process of Heber in passing the test? He was willing to sacrifice his wife to Joseph Smith. Is this warped thinking or what? Heber may have thought he passed the “test” but he really didn’t pass the important test. Smith’s asking really gets to this “prophet’s” depravity.
Falcon,
Abraham was tested by the hebrew god to sacrifice his only son to him. You know the story and how to find it. The only difference is that one test is coming from god, and the other through a person. From a mormon perspective it was from god through their ‘prophet’. It was something unexpected, as I understand many early LDS converts came from puritan backgrounds, a surprising number from John Lathrop himself. This includes several LDS presidents.
I’ve presented this video before on other occations. These Inuit christian ministers suggest taking communion. However, its really a test, eat organs of animals which are forbidden. Its really a deprograming ritual. It is intentionally jarring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggDVqpxxkUM
If you are already a christian, this probably doesn’t seem like much of a test, after all its bringing these people to the truth.
To make this real, I will post a ritual which dedicates your soul to satan. Does that make you uncomfortable? Eating forbidden organs, and abandoning so many aspects of Inuit culture was probably as big a test to them, as many people here to dedicate to satan.
Write the following prayer:
Before the almighty and ineffable God Satan/Lucifer and in the presence of all Demons of Hell, who are the True and the Original gods, I, (state your full name) renounce any and all past allegiances. I renounce the false Judeo/Christian god Jehova, I renounce his vile and worthless son Jesus Christ, I renounce his foul, odious, and rotten holy spirit.
I proclaim Satan Lucifer as my one and only God. I promise to recognize and honor him in all things, without reservation, desiring in return, his manifold assistance in the successful completion of my endeavors.
It is important to bathe before any rituals you perform, this is done out of respect. When you are ready, you can light the candle. Take the needle, prick the index finger of your left hand, squeeze some blood out.
Sign your name in blood.
Recite the prayer either aloud or in your head
Fold the paper and let it burn in the fire of the candle. Many of us have stayed and meditated until the candle had burned itself out.
At the end of the ritual, close with the words “So mote it be.” And a Big “HAIL SATAN!!”
Does that make anyone uncomfortable? This is probably what it was like to do the christian ritual for these inuit people.
Ralph, I have read large portions of the D&C over the years and I am not impressed. As I sarcastically posted above, Joseph Smith, Jun. inserted many portions of Biblical texts into his revelations and probably had many hours alone to conduct such writing. JS lived in a different world where the pace of life was much slower; no television, radio, telephones, etc. to distract him from reading and memorizing the Bible, which was the book many people used to learn how to read. It was the one book most families owned, and many of our common cliche’s that have been passed down have Biblical origins. We also haver personal testimonies the the Smith’s were not the most industrious people in the county, often choosing treasure-seeking over back-breaking to try to make ends meet.
The over-arching theme I see in the D&C is spiritual coercion: Unless this person or that does such and such they will be either blessed or cursed by God. People of all ages have been gullible to the charismatic imposter, not willing to believe that anyone would be so bold as to lie in the name of God. The instances are too numerous to list, but I rememember bringing certain instances to my less-than-interested wife, and laughing at the utter stupidity of JS or going on an irritated tirade about how JS manipulated people to give him money, build him a house/hotel, etc. Men of God don’t act with such dishonesty.
Enki,
I would say that using the example of Abraham being commanded by God to sacrifice Isaac would be perfect for a false prophet to demand all sorts of things (tests) from his followers. My experience here on MC is that Mormons try to find something in the Bible to justify the most egregious actions on the part of Smith. That’s a fairly typical cult reasoning tactic. David Koresh commanded his number one leader to surrender his wife and the guy did it and Koresh impregnated her. It was a loyalty test but also a way for Koresh to satisfy his own lust.
Mormons are conditioned to believe and do what the leaders demand/command. It’s because they have bought the false notion that the leaders hear from and speak on behalf of God. The leadership knows that once people start questioning and holding them to account it’s over for that follower. The person must either be bullied into submitting or leave the group. That’s why excommunication is such an effective tool. It’s the old, “submit or lose everything” scenario. If the person is no longer “hooked” and doesn’t care the game is over.
Enki,
An LDS girl I once knew told me she was having “bad feelings” about what I was going to be doing that night. This was a normal thing for me to accept, as a Mormon, that someone else may have God speak to them about/for me. However, what did happen that night was that I did my homework, and she slept with her boyfriend for the first time.
Part of what I know now, and love about Christianity, is that it’s personal between you and God. You may have what He is already telling you confirmed to you by different godly people in your life. (For example, you have been thinking that you have a lot of clothes you never use, and one day feel like donating them, and that same day have someone tell you about a charity drive). But the LDS church takes a position BETWEEN you and God, and assumes the role of telling you what to do and also judging your worthiness.
I don’t know why so many people want a go-between, but I suspect that 1) they don’t know enough about God and are afraid of Him and/or 2) this is what they’ve always known, and they don’t want to make waves, for themselves or anyone else.
What brought all this up is what you said about Abraham. Yes, God had Abraham do something, and like so many other things in the OT, it was to point to Him and the Salvation He would be bringing about through Jesus.
God has, and shouldn’t He have?, absolute rights over us, as our creator. But when men like Joseph Smith try to usurp that kind of power… well, I just think it shows who they are trying to be…
Setfree,
I see the “go-between” existing in non-LDS Christianity as it does not allow for people to receive their own personal revelation on truth and whether the Bible/BOM and prophets are true. Instead, they are to rely upon the interpretations of others and the work of science and tradition. The LDS church places nothing between man and God in this arena. It is all between the individual and the Almighty from our perspective. Revelation is the foundation for all true religion.
lots of different Ideas. My appology for being over the top if I have been.
Enki,
Thanks for writing about Abraham, I was thinking of doing that as well but since you already have I don’t need to. But I would add that the Bible teaches that we need to give up everything, including our families if needs be, for God and His Kingdom here on this earth. If (and I am saying ‘if’ for those few non-LDS here) JS was a true prophet of God, then if he asked for someone to divorce their wife and give her to him because that is what God wants, that person should do it.
Falcon,
The big difference in the cases between JS and David Koresh is that JS did nothing with his friend’s wife. JS stated that it was a test and that his friend did not have to give his wife to JS – whereas, as you said, David Koresh had his way with his friend’s wife. And before you bring up the other women JS was sealed to that were married to other men, there is no evidence of any physical interaction between JS and these women so if you imply any differently it is just your opinion until some hard evidence is found.
Setfree,
We teach that a person only receives revelation for the things they have jurisdiction over. Ie a parent over their children; a bishop over the ward functions – not individual family functioning; the prophet over the church functions; etc. Your friend had no jurisdiction over you so they would not have had any revelation for what you were doing, but she would have had it for what she was doing. Maybe she was projecting onto you because she knew she was going to do the wrong thing.
Again we see the twisting of what true Christians believe in this statement by Olsen: “as it [Christianity} does not allow for people to receive their own personal revelation on truth.”
This statement could not be more false, for we have the Spirit of Truth as revealed by Jesus in John 16:
12″I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”
What Christians DON’T believe is that men like smith and the current “prophets” of his church are reliable ‘spokesmen’ for God. We believe that no one can get in between us and Jesus. The Spirit of Truth leads us and guides us to all Truth. Jesus gave us the answer, believe in me. Smithians ‘Truth’ is superseded by men, they have the ultimate word in your life. Christians ultimate word is Jesus. The Spirit of Truth led me out of smiths cult, and his trivial mind games of scripture writing. Smithians can say there is nothing between them and God, but we all know this is not the case.
The point of my first post was who were the judges and how did they judge if what was written compared to JS’s revelations.
The judges were all the men in the room except JS and including the ones who doubted him. If they were the judges then how can anyone argue with them if they decided that no one could write up to par with JS? Especially from the quotes above it appears that more than one person tried to write and all present agreed that no ones’ writings were up to par.
What were their criteria for judging? I don’t know. Enki, I know that no one can really copy the exact style of another person, but in this case we do not know if that was one of their criteria. All we know is that the task was about writing something that looked like it could be revelation from God. How can anyone judge this? They would have to have their own criteria for it as we all look at things differently.
Ralph,
I agree that the girl was “projecting” her negative feelings about what she was considering doing onto me. My point was that, Mormonism being as unclear and subjective as it is, she felt righteous in her interpretation of her feelings. I absolutely agree with Falcon that JESUS IS MY MEDIATOR, the ONE AND ONLY GO-BETWEEN between me and God, while Mormonism, Catholicism and other “religions” put men in the middle, men who want to usurp Jesus’ authority.
Olsen,
I would argue that Christians believe in continuous revelation more than Mormons do. Christians believe that God is always revealing things to them personally, things that are consistent with what He has already revealed, just in stronger and deeper ways so that their “heart-knowledge” is increased. Mormons believe that new revelation that doesn’t agree with what God already revealed now comes down through Joseph Smith, and whatever subsequent prophet messes around with what Joseph did, and gets away with it!
Setfree and grindael,
It is easy to demonstrate my point.
All I have to do is ask you how you know for yourself that the Bible is true.
The response is invariably a combination of “testing” the scriptures (against exactly what is unclear if the whole question is whether the Bible is true), an observation about a high percentage of agreement among surviving manuscripts, statements about the Bible saying it is “God breathed.” In my experience the Holy Ghost is an adjunct and accessory in this equation, but He is not the primary source of truth.
In our religion, revelation has not changed since the days of Adam. It is personal and real. It is available for every sincere truth seeker. In my opinion, your criteria for determining what is “God breathed” does not stand if evaluated objectively or with any amount of reason.
How did non-prophets know that a prophet was a true prophet before the scriptures were compiled? Do you khow few people in earth’s history would have any possible way of knowing who was a prophet if what you are saying is true?
Setfree- I don’t think I understand your statement: “Christians believe that God is always revealing things to them personally, things that are consistent with what He has already revealed, just in stronger and deeper ways so that their “heart-knowledge” is increased.”
Do you see the phrase “consistent with what He has already revealed?” How do you know what He has “already revealed?” That is my point. You cannot simply say “the Bible.” This is extraordinarily circular.
If your criteria were true, prophets like Moses and Abraham would not have been considered prophets. They both functioned from revelations that stood on their own- direct communications from God. Was the Law of Moses “consistent with what God had already revealed?” Nope. Was Abraham’s command to slay Isaac? Nope.
Olsen:
What you are missing is the basis upon which a prophet is judged to be a prophet. Could you please elaborate on the post above where smith says that all must flee to Zion, (Missouri) where the ten tribes would join the saints before the coming ‘apocalypse’ that smith predicted would happen before those that were still living in his time had died.
As far as I can tell, they are all dead, and smith’s prediction failed. It is cut and dry, black and white, from your own church history. What is different about smith, young and those that followed is the false belief system they follow. The life of smith attests to his lack of any prophetic gift. He is the hinge that opens the gate to your whole belief system, and he fails miserably. Therefore, ALL of it must be thrown out as false.
How can a prophet teach God was a spirit in 1835 and then he is an exalted man in 1843? That is also in your own writings. A prophet that claimed to have SEEN God? What he could not remember from one year to the next? You accept blindly smith’s faults, and try to explain away all the inconsistencies. Blind faith in a man.
We are skeptical, because Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the other apostles TOLD us to be. They said men like smith would come, that false prophets would try to deceive us. That is why God in his wisdom gave us the Bible. We not only judge smith by it, but EVERYONE, Koresh, Benny Hinn, and all the Pulpit Pimps active today.
The gospel is simple, it is only men who make it complicated with beliefs and rituals not necessary to have a relationship with our creator. If or when a true prophet comes along, I guarantee you he will be nothing like smith.
Ralph and Olson Jim, besides the fact that the revelations in the D&C are patently spiritual coercion to get men to give smith money, property, adulation, women, etc., they are also…I want to say “stupid” and at times “hilarious”, but that is subjective…So I’ll piggyback on Grindael. There is a reason why God gave Israel the standards in Deuteronomy 13 and 18. Any fool can say that God told them something, but if that something contradicts the revelation about who God is, or a predicted future event does not come true, then the person is a false prophet. As has been pointed out on too many occasions to list, ol’ smitty failed both tests numerous times. God’s name is not Elohim, Jesus is not Jehovah of the OT (well He kind of is because He is YHWY as much as the Father is, but not in the modalist sense the BoM points to), and the Holy Ghost is not a separate God (when is he supposed to get a body so he can go throug the Smithian crucible, anyway?). Why didn’t the Civil War (if smith predicted it) bring about worldwide famine and pestilence and the return of the Messiah? The Mormon’s got their butts kicked out of Illinois and the United States did not get broken into potsherds. Where is the parchment that says that John is still alive (D&C 7)? How did it get to America? These are fools playing Ouja board games. Why didn’t smith use his own words instead of stealing pieces of scripture from the Bible in his revelations? To anyone versed in the scriptures they are just a bunch of nonsensical disjointed statements made to sound spiritual because they quote the Bible. I truly find it hard to believe that men as well spoken and intelligent as you two could read such drivel and believe it. It’s truly disapointing that I work with LDS police officers, lawyers, and judges every day who make rational decisions in every other area of their lives, and based upon physical evidence and circumstances put people in jail, but can’t see smith for the fraud that he obviously was.
Setfree and Grindael,
Wow! You covered a lot of real estate and things you don’t like about Joseph Smith and others. You are free to believe what you will about Joseph Smith and everybody else.
But my question was simple- how do you know the Bible is what it claims to be? How did those people who did not have access to the compiled scriptures know when a prophet was true? How did they know the standards given in Deuteronomy 13 and 18 were true? How did Abraham know it wasn’t a “false spirit” that gave him instructions to slay Isaac?
These are fundamental questions that you apparently cannot answer.
Again, in rejecting Joseph Smith, you rely 100% upon perceived physical evidences and proofs. You base such rejection on criteria whose foundation you cannot rationally establish. How do you know those criteria are true? How did the ancient Israelites know the criteria were true? Ultimately, you are taking somebody else’s word for it. You do not relying on revelation, but tradition and the words of others.
Grindael- you said “We are skeptical, because Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the other apostles TOLD us to be. They said men like smith would come, that false prophets would try to deceive us.” Perfect demonstration of circular logic- how do you know that Smith was one that the apostles alluded to? How do you know they weren’t talking about the religious teachers you adhere to? You response is no doubt- “because the Bible says so.” Circular logic and enormous assumptions are everywhere in this.
I can say I know Joseph was a prophet as a result of direct revelation. And I have just as much intellectual evidence to support such knowledge as you have for your beliefs. But I have direct revelation- independent of any other mortal. It is a gift and blessing available to all who seek it.
Again- how do you know the Bible is true?
Olsen,
You still did not answer the question. Sidestepping again. How do you account for the prophecy about the return of the 10 tribes from the north, and smith saying it would happen before all those alive at the time of the prophecy died? From your own History of the Church. How do you account for his saying God was a Spirit in 1835 D&C and then an exalted man in 1843. Just answer these two questions please. The assumptions are not enormous, they are smiths own writings, beliefs and words. The criteria are his OWN WORDS. That is enough for me.
Olsen,
I don’t really expect an answer to the above questions, because I know you have none. Let the quotes speak for themselves. As to how I know that Jesus was talking about smith, well, you have the quotes, his teachings, his lecherous activities, his murder plots and death-threats, treasure hunting, arrest, failed money-making and bank schemes, phony visions, corrected revelations, belief in men in the moon, non-supported fantasy novel (BOM), the Kinderhook plates, the phony translation of the Book of Abraham, his lies to his wife, friends and fellow church members, his direct lies (& a revelation to boot) claiming there was no polygamy when he was practicing it, his plagiarisms, ego mania, his drinking, fighting, breaking of the word of wisdom (yup, that would be hypocrisy), belief in the occult, and adultery (and probably rape of Fanny Alger). Did I miss anything? With smith there is no telling. David Koresh was a minor false prophet compared to smith. But they both suffered the same end, ignominious death.
Fool me once, shame on me… I once was as you are, duped and compliant in fear of my soul from the cult. I haven’t made the same mistake of trusting any man with my salvation again. I get it direct from the source, Jesus. As to direct revelation in smith’s church, well, satan can appear as an angel of light. In smith’s case, perhaps it was captain kidd.
There ain’t nothin’ perceived here my man. It’s all smith, all the way.
Grindael,
I jumped into this thread to ask a very basic, straight-forward question which you have not attempted to answer. The whole laundry list of things Joseph supposedly did that prove he was not a prophet is simply your distraction from my question.
I couldn’t care less about discussing your long list of things- we have all been down that road too many times.
If you don’t want to answer the simple queston- how do you know the Bible is true- that is fine. But leaving a void in such a fundamental question has to make you wonder about everything else.
My point in jumping into this thread is to demonstrate that evangelicals who criticize LDS claims to personal revelation really don’t have a decent answer to this question- HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE?
Olsen Jim,
There is a thing called belief, which is faith. I believe the Bible is true. I used to say: “I know the BOM is true. I know JS was a prophet. I know…etc.” The truth was I didn’t know anything, just as you don’t know anything. I know (but not really, it’s just an expression) you will jump all over me how you know the Church is true, how the Holy Ghost bore witness to you and all that, but in the end you don’t. It’s about faith. I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. That’s part of my personal creed. You see, I have confessed to God that I don’t know if He really exists or is just a figment of my imagination, but I believe. Jesus didn’t say, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever knows WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT (typical Mormon verbiage in a typical Mormon testimony about JS, etc.) about him shall not perish but have eternal life.” No, OJ, it’s not about knowledge but faith. I will be the first to confess to God that I believe with all my heart that He is real, and that I have sensed Him in my life in miraculous ways. But, still, I’m human and do not know anything for certain. I think the better question regarding the Bible is this: Is the Bible authoritative for your life? I can say absolutely! Can you? And, if you say you do, then you better be careful because you just might have to admit that JS was a false prophet. That’s the natural conclusion one comes to when the Bible is authoritative for their life as it is for mine.
Blessings…
Olsen,
I knew you would not answer the two questions, because you cant. Typical response. You see, I was where you are too. I was in smith’s church for 13 years. I spent my teenage years there, and went on a mission for two years, and went to BYU. What you are doing is an old tactic, that we learned in the mission field. It is called turn the topic on the one asking the questions, because you cannot answer them. Shift blame and divert. The cult has taught you well.
You try to stay in control by dodging the hard questions you cannot and will not answer. You are naive to think that those that post here have no clue as to who smith was, and what he taught. I will say with confidence that I know more about smith’s church than 90% of the members of it do. I did not learn what I did from former mormons, or any non-mormon contemporary sources. I read and memorized large portions of the BOM, and smith’s other ‘revelations’. I read the JOD (all volumes) History of the Church, Books by Nibley, and Dean C. Jesse, and a host of general authorities. I went on a mission and memorized the seven (don’t know if it changed) flip-book missionary lessons faster than anyone in the history of that mission. I won awards from my mission president. I went into a predominately catholic mission and had great success using the tactics taught to me by those that trained me.
I left smith’s church while at BYU. I found a plethora of contradictions and flat out lies that had been withheld from me. It was at a time when there was unprecedented access to church archives. It was only AFTER this I pursued every avenue of knowledge about smith, and was able to take that knowledge without the cults influence and make an informed decision about smith and the rest of the so-called prophets.
If you had really read my posts you would know that I already answered your question. Take some time, and re-read what I posted, you will find the answer there.
jack- fine. Substitute the words belief and knowledge. Why do you believe the Bible so much that it is authoritative in your life?
Grindael- glad you have read so much about the church. Your questions of me came AFTER my question to evangelicals. It is pretty standard for people to take turns in such discussion, and it seems a little out of turn for you to say I am avoiding your secondary questions. Who is dodging?
As I said before, your answer to the question- how do you know the Bible is true likely involves statments about a high degree of agreement among surviving manuscripts, “testing” the scritpures, and statements about the word being “God breathed” and a great deal of circular logic.
It is surprising to me that you avoid the question. My answer to the question is the basis for my life, and it just seems a little peculiar that you come across as so certain of so many things, yet cannot seem to answer this very fundamental question with any clarity. This is exactly what I intended to point out in this thread.
Olsen,
I asked you three times for an answer. Nothing. Like I said, I answered the question. Go look. (Hint: it was right after your first post) What you want to do is obvious. I will re-iterate why I believe the Bible is the word of God, and you will liken it to your experience with the BOM or smith, thus creating an impasse, which you will hold up triumphantly as proof of your claims. Play your game. The Bible answer is much more deep than your shallow circular logic statement. The Bible is everything the BOM is not.
The focus is on smith. smithians will do anything to shift the blame away from him and turn it on the ones who rightfully question everything he did. This is what you are doing, and man, gotta give you an E for effort on that one.
Two questions. Not one mormon has answered the one about the 1835 D&C teaching of God as a Spirit, Jesus as Flesh and the HG as the mind of God verses the 1843 exalted man doctrine. I’ve been asking for months now. Perhaps if you look hard enough, like smith did, you will find a magic stone that might help?
Olsen Jim,
It’s really sad that you just don’t get it. I believe the Bible to be God-breathed. Do you? Authoritative means that I will use it as a standard of measurement rather than my own experiences, which is what Mormons do. It’s the measuring stick for those who claim to be prophets. This is where it’s clear that JS was a false prophet. So, try to diminish what I said. It doesn’t really matter in the long run if you believe what I say or not. What matters is whether or not you believe the revealed Word of God pertaining to Jesus Christ and salvation. Praying for you, OJ.
Blessings…
Olsen Jim,
Could you please explain to me what the basis for your life is? Thank you.
Jackg
Ralph,
About all the test proves is that J.S. was better at writing, and under the circumstances he could make it appear to be a revelation better than those who took part in the challenge.
Have you tried to produce a master piece better than Leonardo Da Vinci? I would find that an intimidating challenge, and might actually find my innate talents rather ‘locked up’.That is part of the problem with this test. The other problem is that Joseph was already complete with a number of works. He was a seasoned debater, writer and already had considerable influence over others. I don’t know that anyone passed the test in Islam, but it appears that people still reject the koran without submitting to this test.
Its totally possible for someone to write well, influence others, even make very good contributions to the community, and still not be a prophet. Although here a number of people might disagree if J.S. made a positive contribution to humanity overall.