The ability to earn one’s own salvation is an important distinction in the teachings of the Mormon Church. Using the Book of Mormon passage that a person is saved “by grace after all (he or she) can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), LDS leaders throughout the years have made it abundantly clear that grace only takes a person to the dance, but the onus of one’s salvation is placed on the shoulders of the 14 million members and their good works.
This was made very clear in Seventy Jorge F. Zeballos’s message titled “Attempting the Impossible,” which he delivered during the Fall 2009 General Conference; it is printed in the November 2009 Ensign (pp. 33-34). Let’s provide some of Zeballos’s quotes to show what I mean:
- Quoting 3 Nephi 12:48 (“Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect”), Zeballos said that the Father and Jesus “are the models to be followed by each one of us.” It ought to be pointed out that this passage obviously came from Matt. 5:48;
- Zeballos said, “From a purely human point of view, at first this seems to be an impossible task. However, it begins to appear possible upon understanding that in order to achieve it, we are not alone.” Those he says will help an individual attain this perfection include the Father and Jesus.
- He then quotes D&C 14:7, which says, “And if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Zeballos promises that “this divine promise is possible to achieve.”
- Attaining this, he said, is necessary if we hope to “live with our Father and with our families forevermore.” In fact, “should not this promise be the greatest incentive to do the best within our reach and give the best of ourselves in pursuit of what has been promised to us?”
- “These rewards,” he said, “will be for those who nurture faith in Jesus Christ and comply with His will to work, sacrifice, and give all they have received to strengthen and build the kingdom of God.”
- Furthermore, “the fulfillment of the divine promise to have eternal life, to achieve perfection, and to be happy forevermore in the family unit is subject to the sincere demonstration of our faith in Jesus Christ, obedience to the commandments, perseverance, and diligence throughout our lives.”
- Fascinatingly enough, he declares, “The Lord does not expect that we do what we cannot achieve. The command to become perfect, as He is, encourages us to achieve the best of ourselves… (and) to realize our potential as children of God.”
- He adds, “The invitation and challenge to become perfect, to achieve eternal life is for all mankind.”
These quotes are interesting because, after motivating his audience to achieve perfection, Zeballos appears to back off from his hard teaching. This is indicated when he said,
“God will not require more than the best we can give because that would not be just, but neither can He accept less than that because that would not be just either. Therefore, let us always give the best we can in the service of God and our fellowmen…. Let us do the best we can and each day be a little better.”
The “trying your best” idea has been around for a long time, but President Spencer Kimball said this was a weak position. Kimball wrote the following in his 1969 book The Miracle of Forgiveness:
“Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action” (p. 164).
Kimball then tells a story of a soldier who told his officer that he would “try” to fulfill an order. After he was reprimanded, the soldier told the officer that he would do his “best.” When the officer rejected this as not being good enough, the soldier said that he would “do it or die.” Kimball wrote,
“To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission’” (p. 164).
To conclusively show that to try one’s best is all that the LDS God requires, Kimball concluded the section this way:
“To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can. This is true in every walk of life…. With the inspiration from the Lord we can rise higher than our individual powers, extend far beyond our own personal potential” (p. 165).
Perhaps Zeballos knew that trying is weak, because toward the end of his sermon he appeared to revert back to his original hard-line stance. In the last minute of his sermon, he provided a line from the title of his sermon that made things appear very clear:
“Even when, from a purely human perspective, perfection can appear an impossible challenge to achieve, I testify that our Father and our Savior have made known to us that it is possible to achieve the impossible. Yes, it is possible to achieve eternal life. Yes, it is possible to be happy now and forever” (emphasis mine).
What a confusing message! According to a current LDS general authority who was speaking at a general conference—a place where doctrine can be taught and clarified before the membership—complete obedience is necessary. The only way a person can find happiness is achieving the impossible. Yet can anyone actually achieve what is impossible? Oh, what a hopeless, confusing message that Mormonism offers!
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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Mike R: why does it matter which commandments he is referring to?
bf says: “It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” Yet nothing in this blog encourages the reader to seek truth from its source (God himself). Revelation, the Holy Ghost,testimony are only valid if they agree with the EV’s interpretation of the scriptures. Talk about deception.
bf: If LDS remind you of the stepsister, then I would have to say that these posts remind me of the wicked stepmother…screaming all the day long that Cinderella is worth nothing, degrading her and contiually ordering her around…only to find in the end that she and her daughters are banned and Cinderella goes on to her happily ever after.
Liv,
And what if the judge said, the legislature just passed a law that changed the speed limit? What then? are you going to argue that the legislature does not have the authority to do so?
DOF,
It sounds like you are angry.At me? Why?
I asked a simple question in order to
understand what exactly Mormons believe.
I’m sure this would benefit a respectful
dialogue, don’t you?
Actually it seems that the bar may be pretty low to become a Mormon god via “works”. I believe someone has pointed out here that a Mormon can drink, smoke, commit adultery, prophecy falsely and be locked in pride and still make it to the number one slot. I guess Joseph Smith must have really taken advantage of the “all you can do” rule and decided not to do much. What a great example to follow.
Mormonism works for Mormons because they don’t think much of the gospel message as presented in the Bible. The Bible is clear: Our corrupted nature leads us to act in ways that separate us from a holy God. God offers us through his love and mercy and grace, the gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus. We don’t deserve this gift and we can’t earn it through our works.
“Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.” (Galatians 3:15)
“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
(Galatians 3:10)
Mike: No anger. Just a simple question in return. Why does it matter which commandments?
Set, are you saying that the more one sins, the more capable of love they are, in the end?
Falcon had made mention about temple ordinances being performed for Adolf Hitler by proxy. I know this has been discussed here before, but for the benefit of new arrivals to MC or the curious lurker we can quickly recap. Adolf Hitler’s sin against humanity and against God is well known. He is solely responsible for the death of six million Jews. Mormon Scriptures make it very clear supposedly what the Mormon god told Joseph Smith in D&C 42:18&79 – there is no forgiveness for this person in this world or the world to come for this sin. The D&C Student Manual makes it very clear that the only kingdom that a murderer can inherit is the telestial AFTER the 1,000 years of the Millennium where Jesus will supposedly rule from the great state of Missouri.
Despite the above and a mountain of other information on this subject, the LDS Church went through with proxy work for Hitler at the London temple.
Name: Hitler, Adolf
Sex: M
Event: Birth – 20 Apr 1889; Braunau Am Inn, Oberoesterreich, Austria
Baptized: 10 Dec 1993
Endowed: 10 Dec 1993
Sealed to Parents: 12 Mar 1994
Film Call Number: 1903846
How’d you like to be the naive teenage kid that day at the London Temple who had to stand in proxy for Hitler for this work? Yeah, not something to write home and tell your mother about. I guess this would explain why the Jews are furious with the LDS Church and have demanded that they stop doing proxy work for their relatives. If Hitler is in the Mormon heaven, then you can’t blame the Jews for not wanting to be there. Hitler may have a relapse and go on a rampage again. The Mormon god obviously forgot about D&C 42 and has approved of temple workers doing proxy work for people that shouldn’t have it done. The Mormon god has made an exception for Hitler so naturally that would leave the Jews a little uneasy even if they ended up in the terrestrial. Looks like Hitler is on his way to becoming a god in the Mormon program (endowment ordinance?) Who will be his wives?
DOTF said: “Just curious: Is it a requirement for all EV’s to have been involved in the occult, drugs, alcohol, illegitamacy, etc. before and/or in preparation to become a Christian?”
No sir, it’s not a requirement, but it sure doesn’t hurt. I say, “the more sins – the better”. Why would I say that? First, Christ can handle it. He has taken all of our sins (past, present and future) and bore them on the cross (1 Peter 2:24) one time for all time (Hebrews 9:28). Second, the more sin – the more grace! Don’t take my word for it. Read it here: Romans 5:20 – Amen!
Third, those that have had to sink to rock-bottom and could do nothing but look up usually make stronger, active Christians in some respects. They have realized what the results were of those sins, how a sinless Christ took those sins and forgave them, cleansed that person from sin, redeemed them by grace (unmerited favor) and gave that person the gift of eternal life for coming to the true Christ solely for their salvation. They are thankful for that loving mercy, forgiveness and salvation and are eager to serve the Savior out of gratitude because they realize they could never pay the sin debt IN FULL in any way on their own.
I’m always a little leary when someone tells me they accepted Christ at 5 years-old, never did anything bad and was “Mr./Miss Squeaky clean” from that point on until this moment. Their biggest sin I guess at that point in their life in need of repentance was rolling Play-Doh in a ball, dipping it in finger paints and throwing it at their sibling nailing him/her between the eyes. Compare that to a person who is a thief, adulterer, chronic liar, drunk and an athiest who then comes to Christ and is radically regenerated and is now a new creature in Christ (2 Cor 5:17)…well, now you’ve got someone with a testimony that will get others attention.
I bet Tiger Woods may be ready to hear the Gospel. He’s got it and had it all and it brought him unhappiness and dissatisfaction.
Good evening DOF, you asked “To be fair, wouldn’t you say that the majority of threads on this blog are directed at criticism of LDS leaders?”
I would say that the majority of the threads on this blog are directed at criticism of what comes out of their mouth, i.e. their teaching.
Yes there are those on here that make snide comments about them which I don’t think Christ would want us to do. I can’t control that unfortunately.. I do however believe that Christ would want us to rebuke what we believe is harmful doctrine that is taught by LDS leadership.
I get frustrated with LDS leadership because I feel they are leading millions astray. Because I don’t feel they are upfront, nor teach members of the church to be upfront with the doctrine of the church. (I’m talking all of it, not just “the most important ones”)
I feel that they really put a halt to letting LDS members experience the gratitude and happiness one has when they realize exactly how greatly they need their Savior and that He came to their rescue because of a Love so bright that evil cowers from it.
One who experiences that feeling of gratitude is filled with the Spirit and forever thanks God by doing good deeds/work in His Holy name.
That’s my take, night friend!
No, it wasn’t drugs, the occult, alcohol, mass murder, etc. that prepared me to run to the Savior for forgiveness, mercy and salvation. It was the realization that there is a God who created the heavens and this world. This God also created mankind and that included sinful dirtbags like you and I (Isaiah 64:6). God cared enough about sinful, undeserving jerks like you and I to come to earth and take on human flesh when He didn’t have to just so undeserving law-breakers who deserve hell could be in a restored relationship if we chose to come to Him freely for forgiveness of sins and making Him Lord and God of our life.
He doesn’t force us into it and if we decide to give God “the bird”, then hey…He’ll let you go your own way and live with the choice that follows next when one chooses not to acknowledge and accept that God: a one-way trip to outer darkness to shovel brimstone with Hitler on the graveyard shift while burning in fire for all eternity; the realization of being separated from all eternity from that loving God who didn’t want you to be there, but let you have your way.
No, it wasn’t dope, booze or hookers that brought me around. It was fear of God and fear of hell. It started here: Prov 1:7; 9:10; then went here: Matthew 25:41, 46; then here: Isa 66:24; Mark 9:43-44; here: Rev 20:10, 14-15; Rev 21:8; finally here: John 3:16; 6:47; Rom 5:1; 6:23; 8:1.
For our Mormon friends who don’t like the Bible’s take on it, you can read the exact same thing in your LDS Scriptures in Jacob 3:11; 6:10; Alma 5:56; 2 Nephi 9:16; Mosiah 2:38-39; 3:27; D&C 29:28.
Praise God for mercy, grace, forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus Christ!
Amen Andy, more of what I was talking about earlier. The sciptures clearly teach salvation by grace through faith. Works are descriptive of salvation by faith, not prescriptive to earn salvation in an effort to prove you have faith. But you see, our spiritually deceived and deceiving smithian posters here separate themselves from reality when wearing their “LDS hat”.
DOTF, perhaps I should have been clearer in my analogies about reality verses smithian thinking. In smith’s world when the judge tells the police officer that speeding is not against the law and the officer shows the statute, and a picture of the 35 MPH sign, the judge says, “That’s not what it says.” When the officer reads the statute, then takes the judge to the scene of the crime to prove the speed limit sign actually exists, the judge says, “Speeding is not against the law, and it never has been.” The officer has three choices: He can continue to argue with the judge and risk the penalty for that, he can agree with the judge that speeding is not against the law and never has been (even though he holds the evidence to the contrary in his hands), or he can quit and go work somewhere where the judges can’t make up arbitrary rules at their pleasure. Why do you think so many people leave Smith’s church?
As far as it being necessary for someone to be a liar, a thief, an adulterer, etc. before coming to Christ? Haven’t you ever read Matthew 5? Blessed are the poor in spirit….and “I say to you whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart.” You are all of those things, DOTF, though you won’t admit it. Hence, you are not poor in spirit, and you don’t mourn over the sin that you refuse to see in your life.
I am all of those things in heart, thought, and deed. That’s why I ran to the cross.
DOF,
It matters to me because LDS are saying that
keeping the commandments is required in order
to receive Eternal life.Specifically, what are
these commandments? Are they just the Ten
commandments?
The entire letter to the Galatians deals with the matter of law vs. grace. Bottom line is that Jesus completed the law. Paul is very clear when he writes:
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:6-9)
Apart from the fact that Mormonism is a false gospel that was preached supposedly by an angel to Joseph Smith, it (Mormonism) is in total opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ which the apostle Paul had miraculously revealed to him and confirmed by the apostles. Paul makes it very clear in his letter to the Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith. We have no part in the work of salvation because Christ did the work on the Cross. We are to become born again by the Spirit of God and then walk by the Spirit in newness of life.
Mormonism’s program of progressing to godhood is a total abomination and challenges the One, only, unchanging, eternal God. The works righteousness program makes sense to Mormons because their belief that they can progress to become a god has certain requirements attached to it. More specifically that Mormons confess faith in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet. Mormons are also required to buy their way into the temple by purchasing a temple recommend which costs 10% of their gross income. In the temple then they do more work in the hope of doing enough to become a god.
This is a different gospel that according to Paul is accursed. It’s no wonder that Joseph Smith had to downgrade the Bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well we may as well address this.
God chose those who He foreknew would accept Christ. The Scriptures definitely base God’s election on His foreknowledge: “Whom He foreknew, He also foreordained,…and whom He foreordained, them He also called” (Romans 8:29-30); “to the elect…according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (First Peter 1:1-2). Although we are nowhere told what it is in the foreknowledge of God that determines His choice, the repeated teaching of Scripture that man is responsible for accepting or rejecting salvation necessitates our postulating that it is man’s reaction to the revelation God has made of Himself that is the basis of His election. Since mankind is hopelessly dead in trespasses and sins and can do nothing to obtain salvation, God graciously restores to all men sufficient ability to make a choice in the matter of submission to Him. This is the salvation-bringing grace of God that has appeared to all men. In His foreknowledge He perceives what each one will do with this restored ability, and elects men to salvation in harmony with His knowledge of their choice of Him. There is no merit in this transaction. (Systematic Theology, Henry C. Thiessen, pp. 344,345)
Mormons have a limited god. The Mormon god is bound by certain conventions and is not like God; omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The Mormon god is very small because he once was a sinful man who has yet to progress high enough on the god continuum. Our all knowing God knows who will accept or reject His offer of eternal life. I don’t know who is saved and who isn’t saved but I do know that people who are saved have accepted through faith God’s offer of eternal life. We don’t merit it in any way. It’s a free gift to all who would repent and receive God’s gift. I would also say that a right understanding of who God and Jesus are is fundamental to understanding that only a qualified Savior can fullfill the requirements of the law and pay the debt for our sins.
The fundamental question involving any discussion on religion is “Who is God?” Because Mormons believe in a different god, a different jesus and a different spirit, they have a different plan of salvation. Therefore discussing any of these matters with Mormons is quite useless because we don’t acknowledge the same God. In the Mormon system, there are many gods, perhaps millions or even billions of gods. In the Mormon system all gods were once men who through a system of progression became gods. So Mormon salvation is a works related program whereby the Mormon male, by completing certain works can attempt to become a god. This concept has nothing to do with Christianity nor is it taught anywhere in scripture. It can’t be found in either the history or traditions of the orthodox Christian church. These SLC Mormon concepts are even rejected by other sects of Mormonism.
Since Christians reject the pillars of Mormonism i.e. prophet Joseph Smith, the LDS church, the BoM and the current Mormon prophet, any discussions regarding salvation are a frustration of cross-cultural communication.
Mormons reject the God revealed in the Bible and His offer of salvation through faith in the finished work of the Cross of Jesus Christ. Mormons believe in a two fold salvation. The first part is a universal salvation offered to everyone regardless. The second part is the works program in which the Mormon male participates in the hope of becoming a god with his own planetary system and minions who will shower him with adoration. Mormons are being more than a little disingenuous when they claim Christ as Savior since all of mankind, in their view, have this salvation.
Mormonism is another gospel that can’t be found in God’s revealed Word the Bible. It was founded in the clouded and confused mind of an occultist who, when he wasn’t coming up with bogus translations of ancient documents and hunting for buried treasure with his magic rock, was treating himself to the sexual favors of both married and unmarried women and at least one adolescent girl.
DOF,
In response to Acts 16:31, you reply that your leaders would point to Acts 2:38. So are you saying that belief and baptism, that’s all a faithful Latter-day Saint needs in order to inherit the Celestial? Please be specific.
Eric
Eric,
Can I take a shot at answering your question? Mormons believe in a universal salvation for everyone regardless of whether they believe or not so when Mormons talk about “salvation” they just run us around a Mormon Maze of confused rhetoric of which they don’t even know the way out. Then they hop-skip-and-jump into their godmaker mode with it’s system of legalism and works that they try to climb up in order to reach the top rung of god making success. And the LDS church keeps these poor chumps on pins and needles never knowing for sure if they’ve ever done enough to become a Mormon god. That way there’s this continual tension and means of keeping the guys work, work, working away in the Morg, totally under control of the religious machine.
The Bible tells us if Christ has set us free we are free indeed. Mormons can’t relate to this. Their only thought is that freedom means licentiousness or freedom to sin. We are free from sin and the death penalty our sinful nature keeps us under. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Being “in Christ Jesus” is only effective when the blood of the cross is applied to our sins by grace through faith. Receiving the sacrifice of the qualified Savior is the key. The Mormon jesus is not a qualified Savior because he doesn’t exist just as the Mormon gods do not exist or the hope of becoming one.
Recognizing who Jesus is and what He did and accepting the plan of salvation outlined in the Bible is the only way to eternal life. All others are false gospels with false hope.
To our LDS readers and blog contributors:
I don’t want to tell you what you believe. I could do that from the writings of your prophets, apostles and church manuals, but I think it would be best if YOU could please tell US these things:
1. Define the word “saved”.
2. Define the word “salvation”.
3. Define the word “eternal life”.
4. Define the word “grace”.
5. Who is NOT “saved” currently on this earth?
6. What is the difference between general and individual salvation?
7. Can salvation be earned or purchased?
8. How is one born again by degrees?
9. Are you not born with a sin nature in light of LDS Articles/Creeds of Faith #2?
10. Other than universal atonement by Christ for all of mankind, what other spiritual necessities were needed by Christ by you to aid you in eternal progression?
Many Thanks,
[email protected]
AndyW
normally quackers…but i can’t resist this one. let me answer, somewhat clinically.
1. saved = a rather poetic term to emphasize an individual’s transformation from “natural” to “spiritual”.
2. salvation = perhaps best described as a successful “judgement” from Jesus. But also considered the perpetual earthly state of being “saved”.
3. eternal life = a continued existence that maintains the perceived individuality of today…and individuality that is not bound by “natural” circumstance.
4. Grace = anoher poetic term to describe the “hands-on” application of God’s will with a positive influence on our “salvation”.
5. Only God can answer this question, judgement is for Him to determine, not for us to determine.
6. probably cultural, because this question seems to just be splitting hairs and has no significant scriptural foundation.
7. A long time ago Catholics could purchase it. And many Ev think it is still for sale. However, it is usually earned…it is never just given without at least asking for it.
8. the new birth is by God and is a mystery for all practical purposes. “By degrees” is not plausible…kinda like trying to pop a ballon by degrees…its instant.
9. as you word it, no. being born in a natural condition means we will probably sin and thus only be punished for those sins…not for Adam’s….that is kinda why a baby is actually, through free agency, somewhat sinless.
10. Moral Obedience through the gift of Free Agency.
1. saved = a rather poetic term to emphasize an individual’s transformation from “natural” to “spiritual”
So much (bad) theology there. May I suggest that the reason the celestial kingdom is so hard to achieve, and so few people make it, is because the consequence if they don’t is not so bad. In LDS soteriology, “salvation” is for all but the absolute worst of humanity.
FYI Many Catholics still believe they can obtain indulgences (though probably not by purchasing them). Please, show me the “Ev” that claims he can purchase salvation. I would love to demonstrate to you that it is not only Mormons who we brand as heretics.
Sub,
Thanks for your interpretation of these terms.
I was searching for a “clinical” answer in the
N.T. for #3, yet all I found was Jn.17:3. Is
that OK?
Sub,
I’m not sure what you meant by the opening “normally quackers” remark. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since we know you’re writing style here and not take it as a negative comment for asking legitimate questions.
Upon reviewing your answers I see that the majority of them are NOT in line with official LDS teachings that I have read from your proclaimed prophets, apostles and LDS institute manuals. This confirms to me once again the wide latitude that the Mormon people are given for defining their beliefs and terms within the religion. This would explain why there are four camps within Mormonism on the virgin birth of Jesus and it’s okay because it appears to be a non-essential.
Off topic, I’ve been doing some reading from the early Church Fathers about all things theological and have been quite surprised in how clear they were on the subject of the virgin birth.
Anyway, thanks for your answers to the above.
I have to agree with Andy. There is a wide latitude that the Mormon people are given for defining their beliefs and terms w/in the religion. Mind you, it’s not that Mormonism hasn’t defined it’s own beliefs and terms, the leadership just isn’t that concerned that the majority of Mormons know what the definitions are. That way, everyone can merrily go about believing what they want, and still lend their number to the roll count, and their tithes to the income.
mike r
not really sure that my answer is that different, in application, than your scripture reference. But maybe to know God and to know Jesus means something different to you……you “know” what I mean?
AndyW and others
I do not believe I am out of line with actual Mormon doctrine. Now I know the Ev would love to bring up a 19th century BY reference and claim that they have just turned LDS on its head but we all are smart enough here to “know” better…we could discuss continued revelation now but the Ev would surely be uncomfortable with that.
….people are given for defining their beliefs and terms w/in the religion
wow, either you are catholic or you are new to Christianity…either way welcome to the Protestant side of the street.
Seeing that religion is ultimately a very personal endeavour “definitions” might obviously be less than intricately described….but I seem to remember the Bible has a verse about writings versus Spirit, or somesuch saying…perhaps you are familiar with this?
nevertheless, doctrine is a peculiar beast and though my answers to AndyW’s obviously loaded questions were “clinical” and even a little facetious, they are not off the reservation.
I will say when it comes to inconsistent doctrine and flippant scriptural emphasis’ the Ev has cornered the market.
Martin of B
once you claimed that the Bible was not simply a tool for conversion but that it was the “most important” items for which God wants us to know…as if to defend against a flawed author….so what is the deeper meaning of the “generation count” discrepency with regards to Jesus in Matt and Luke ?
I know off subject but me loco.
Andy if this is your stance, “the more sins – the better” then we will have to agree to disagree. No doctrine seems more damnable than this. Your intereptation of Romans seems so twisted.
Jeffrey, To some extent you may be right, although I don’t see much of the seperation between doctrinal criticism and personal attacks.
Nevertheless, I still think this approach is a slippery slope. Consider the Jews, learned in the law, yet they could not see the Savior for what He was.
Why? “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy…” Obviously, LDS leaders are not perfect, but I would still ask the same question. I don’t see any of hiding or misdirection that you are claiming. Perhaps your “ward” experience was different than mine, but I just don’t see it.
Eric,
I am saying that without the gift of the Holy Ghost, you cannot inherit the celestial kingdom. So if there is no belief, no repentance, no baptism, then no Holy Ghost.
Joseph Smith was once asked seperated us from the other Christian religions and what was his response? “We have the GIFT of the Holy Ghost”.
Mike, thanks for answering the question.
I would say that we are required to live “by every word which proceedeth from the mouth of God”.
That is the whole point of Zeballos’ talk. That is the requirement and we have already failed.
I am not going to rehash everything, but Zeballos is telling us there is hope because of the atonement. The talk is to direct us to the Savior. I don’t see the confusion here.
We’re not perfect – well, neither are you! What kind of mindset finds comfort in defining Paul as apostate? I think the higher critics and continual search for Biblical problems does comfort Mormons. It helps to brush the Bible aside (negating it’s message), while at the same time justifying Joseph Smith’s flawed writings – i.e. no proof, no source documents, no historical archeology, etc. Mormons seek to place the Bible on the same footings as the Book of Mormon, thereby bringing Christianity down to the level of Mormonism. An interesting cause to engage, but I must think, ultimately an unfulfilling venture. Despite any flaws found, the Bible at least has evidence, is written soon after the events happened (not some 1800 years later), and is demonstrably a historical document (whether one trusts its message or not). The BOM is demonstrably NOT a historical document – no self-respecting non-Mormon historian would ever search its pages for clues concerning the ancient Americas. If they did, I assure you it would be as fruitless a search as looking for ancient manuscripts containing the text of the Book of Abraham (we have the one Joseph Smith used, no luck getting the text of BOA from it, though some have tried). Given these problems, Mormons take great comfort in attempting to take the Bible down a peg or two, claiming Paul was an apostate, Luke got things wrong, etc. It helps reinforce the warm fuzzies for the BOM, i.e. it’s just as good as the Bible – in fact it’s better, let me count the ways. Islam seems to exist in opposition to Christianity (“God has no Son” and other tenets), I wonder if a similar condition exists among Mormons where they tend not to defend their beliefs, but exist in opposition to Christianity – or if it is just on this blog that this holds true? There is no such thing as Mormon Scholarship, the leaders tend to be wealthy business men whose wealth is seen as divine approval, and then we have the non-revelatory “prophets.”
Falcon is such a crack up. He said, “Therefore discussing any of these matters with Mormons is quite useless because we don’t acknowledge the same God” Then proceeds with endless paragraphs and more rhetoric than any of us can spit out in a lifetime. I know, it’s those honest seekers he is after….right?
Nevertheless, I couldn’t agree more with him. See Falcon, there is some hope for us. This certainly isn’t anything new. I’m sure Smith made that abundantly clear in Article of Faith #1. We believe in the same beings who are speaking in Genesis. The same Ones conversing in John 17. No amount of debate is going to get us anywhere.
Sub,
Actually, I don’t know what you mean.I guess if
you could give a “un-clinical” answer perhaps
I would. That’s the benefit of an actual personal
relationship (the “know” of Jn.17;3) with the
Lord Jesus Christ, it’s a rather un-clinical
experience.
” And I brethren, when I came to you, came not
with excellency of speech, or of wisdom,declar-
ing unto you the testimony of God. For I
determined not to know anything among you,save
Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” [1Cor.2:1-2]
Yea, these Mormons are some real beauties, aren’t they? Nice try Andy, good luck ever getting any kind of an answer out of a Mormon that a) makes any sense, b) has any kind of consistency c) relates in any way to what Mormon prophets or GA past or present have ever said. Mormons read and/or listen to their GAs/prophets past and present and merely fill-it-up with their own meaning. Remember, in Mormonism you can believe whatever you want, but you can’t teach it.
I think the fact that Mormons attack the Bible, the apostle Paul and Luke tells us all we have to know about this fraudulent vapid religion. These Mormons get an emotional buzz off of it and in their world its all that counts. Its their dope!
DOF,
Thanks for replying to my question, re: what
are the Commandments of God required for LDS
to keep in order to gain Eternal Life with
God in heaven.
You stated that you are required to “live by
every word” which God speaks. i.e. keep all
words[commandments] that God speaks. So you
are required to keep all of God’s commandments
correct?
I’ll be away for the rest of the afternoon, if you reply, I catch your reply later.
( its bowl season, and my favorite team actually
made it to a bowl game! go WYOMING ! )
DF, you say: “I am saying that without the gift of the Holy Ghost, you cannot inherit the celestial kingdom. So if there is no belief, no repentance, no baptism, then no Holy Ghost.” This is how you are interpreting Acts 2:38.
OK, I believed, I got baptized, and I received the Holy Spirit. I’m set for the Celestial, correct?
DOTF:
You missed my point entirely regarding Romans 5:20. I believe the verse speaks for itself even in the KJV which is difficult for most people to read. The point is simply this (and I believe this is what Paul probably meant when he wrote it): The more sins/transgresssions that a person has in their sin debt “account”, the more grace is given to you naturally as that is applied to the blood of Christ that was shed for forgiveness to be given at repentance/conversion. There is no sin or the amount thereof that CANNOT be atoned, covered and forgiven for a sinner on the “account” of Christ. Is more grace given by Christ to a 6 year-old kid for his sins that he has committed or would more grace need to be given to a man who has been a habitual sinner openly and defiantly for let’s say…60 years? It is not biblical to encourage anyone to sin outright so Christ can give them more grace for their sin. For me to say that would be a damnable heresy and absurd.
SUB:
No, in looking over my references from LDS sources on each of the above stated questions or definitions, they all are given within the past 50 years of the LDS Church and none are by Brigham Young.
I wish the Mormon people would get their information about Christianity/evangelicals from us and not their spin doctors at BYU or at Conference. I learn(ed) Mormonism from Mormon sources. God is not silenced and He is not finished talking. He speaks through His Holy Spirit each day to His followers giving counsel, guidance, instruction and discernment (John 16:13). He can also do this through the lives of His believers via gifts of the Holy Spirit. The biblical canon is complete. God’s written Word is complete (Jude 3). I don’t know any Christian who is about to tell an Almighty, Omnipotent God that He cannot talk. God can do whatever He wants. However, He will not lie (Hebrews 6:18) and He won’t contradict what He has already said in the past.
When can we expect D&C 139?
So how do Mormons know what they know about the multiplicity of gods, men becoming gods, the pathway to the Celestial kingdom etc? It’s very simple, the occultist Joseph Smith told them so. When he wasn’t busy conning people out of money by searching for buried treasure with his magic rock, he was having visitations from spirits of all sorts. Now if Mormons want to believe a lying adulterer with a magic rock, what else can we say? The delusion certainly can’t be overcome by facts, evidence or reason. We’ve heard here that the Bible is wrong, Paul and Luke are apostates but wouldn’t you know it, the reprobate Smith is the real deal. It is true, when it comes to Mormonism, Mormons can’t think rationally!
I’d like to thank Ed Decker for responding to some of the comments made about him.
I still don’t see an answer to my previous objection, though.
Let’s say, for sake of argument, that the LDS allegations are true, and Ed left the Mormon program because he got tangled up in sin (I’m not agreeing with the accusations, merely using this scenario as an example).
The clear conclusion is that the LDS program cannot deliver a person from his sins. If it cannot deliver a person like Ed, then who can it deliver?
It seems that the only people it might help deliver from sins are those who don’t appear to be troubled by their sins. That’s like saying the diet really, really works, unless you’re fat.
The Bible, I believe, has been over this ground on a grand scale. Its frustrating that the LDS leadership refuse to listen to it.
Think about the grand narrative of the Temple in the Old Testament. The story is that Israel build a Temple, they get it up and functioning and they actually succeed in operating the program, in compliance with God’s instructions.
But, here’s the conundrum, even though they had the program and the Temple and everything that goes with it, they could not save themselves from their sin. They suffered God’s judgment by the destruction of the Temple and the Exile to Babylon in 587BC.
This question, I believe, is behind the NT thinking on works verses faith. IMO, the NT authors are effectively saying to the Jews, you have the temple, you have the scriptures, you have the works, BUT you are not saved from your sins and you are NOT reconciled to God.
The early Christians interpreted the destruction of the Second Temple in AD70 as proof that God endorsed their message.
Does the fact of having a Temple, the scriptures and the prophets save people from their sins?
No, no, and no.
They didn’t work for ancient Israel, and they didn’t work for Ed Decker (allegedly).
If they can’t, what can?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ. Romans 7:24-25
AndyW
Unlike many, I am not above correction. So Please feel free to provide me with how my answers are in conflict with modern Mormon doctrine.
Rational thinking is but one of the means to knowledge.
True Faith equals conformity to truth, whereas rational thought is an imperfect means of apprehending truth (see mimetics). Conforming to truth involves understanding it , but understanding truth does not necessarily involve conforming to it.
So to give excessive weight to reason or rationalization in theology is fundamental unsound because knowledge is derived from more than reason. This is key to knowing LDS, we embrace reason, tradition, intuition, and emotion in a way that strengthens our Faith and expands our spirituality.This seems illogical to the Ev, and this notion of being “logical” is often misunderstood to be reason but it is not.
The Ev constantly uses “logic” to discern and logic simply forces God into a box He will not fit in…….beam me up scotty
Martin said, “The clear conclusion is that the LDS program cannot deliver a person from his sins. If it cannot deliver a person like Ed, then who can it deliver?”
Nor does it claim it can!
Article #3 “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, ALL mankind MAY be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” Agency always reigns supreme. God nor the LDS program is going to force anyone into heaven.
Just because I decide to jump out of the plane before it reaches its destination, doesn’t mean the plane and other the passengers are not going to get there.
Eric, are you set for the Celestial?
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
If the spirit you received told you that you had received all truth and that you have nothing left to be taught, then it is not the Spirit of truth. Real reception of the Holy Ghost will show you there is so much more truth left to come.
Martin you said,
“Does the fact of having a Temple, the scriptures and the prophets save people from their sins? No, no and no.”
LDS couldn’t agree with you more! Why do you think we have weekly sacrament meetings, biannual conferences…continual teaching and reminders about where/how salvation comes. If we believed otherwise, we would just build a temple, publish the scriptures and call it good.
Mike,
You are correct. A living God, speaking today; giving and receiving as He sees fit.
Setfree said,
“the leadership just isn’t that concerned that the majority of Mormons know what the definitions are”
Maybe you should take that up with Greg Stier at youthministry.com
Mormons expect a lot out of their teenagers. We don’t.
Mormons ordain their young men into the ministry at the age of twelve. We don’t.
Mormons require their teens to attend seminary every day of high school. We don’t.
Mormons ask for two years in the field of every graduating senior. We don’t.
This is one evagelical who doesn’t agree with you.
DOF,
You are required to keep all the commandments
of God in full to receive Eternal life in Heaven
with Heavenly father. Thanks for clarifying your
belief.
I would have loved to see the look on the jailer’s
face, in Acts 16:30-31, if Paul had told him what
you believe. I don’t think he would have been
rejoicing(vr.34) at all. This is not the good
news that he heard.
DoF quotes
What I read here is a total reliance on self-effort. Metaphorically, the Gospel is reduced to a message of how God flies past the earth in a spaceship, throws a book out of the window and says “Do what it says. I’ll test you when I get back”.
When I asked a Mormon Bishop what he thought Jesus’ mission was, he replied “To give us the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (When I said that we don’t read anything like that in the NT, he said that was because “it had been changed by the catholics”. I kid you not.)
His view, and DoF’s view, is Jesus tells us how it should be done, but he’s not involved in the doing of it. Its rather like that Bette Middler song “From a distance”.
The Biblical view is radically different. When Jesus says “I will be with you, even unto the end of the age” (Matt 28:20), he means is that God is now reconciled with humanity such that they can now live together in the intimate union that humanity was created for.
Jesus does set the pattern for what it means for humans to function as they were designed, because he is fully and wholly human.
However, because he is also fully and wholly divine, he is the one who creates the means for this “new creation” to occur. He does this by the Cross (Col 1:20), NOT by instituting a new religion or vamping up the temple or appointing a new succession of prophets. Why? Because all the scriptures, the temple, the prophets of the OT point us to Him.
Whichever way you look at it, the end goal and the process are the same; its about the presence of the Living One in a person’s life.
If it was Jesus’ mission to create a new religion, then he did a pretty crappy job of it. The fool got himself killed before finishing his task.
Sorry this is so late but I have been busy.
Falcon,
If it’s faith in Jesus and nothing else then why do you believe in the Bible? I assume you do because you defend it and the prophet in it so vehemently. If one does not need to believe in the Bible, as you say, then does it really matter what they believe about Jesus, just as long as they believe in Him? I mean, everything about Jesus both in the Bible and from other sources would therefore be an oral or written tradition ad the originator’s opinion.
o why are we having this discussion? I believe in Jesus. You do not believe in the Bible, thus you cannot support your opinion on a scriptural basis. At least that is what you keep saying to us LDS when we try and use the Bible – because we have the 8th article of faith it means that we do not take the Bible as authoritative (ie believe in it) so why are we using it to defend our position? So if you don’t believe in the Bible, why do you use it to support your opinion? Why do you use it at all? If you do believe in it then you cannot be saved as you have added to Just Jesus.
Ah come on Ralph, you’re smarter than that. Are you purposely acting dumb? I admit you are having some fun with your Mormon logic, feigning ignorance, but I’ll try and walk you through this. Of course it may require you to not think “Mormon” but I’ll give it a shot.
The topic here is “the means of salvation”. We are not saved by the prophets or the Bible. We are saved by Jesus’ death on the Cross. That’s it! Christians don’t add anything to the shed blood of the Cross of Jesus Christ. Through faith, we apply the blood of Jesus to our sins. During the Passover, the Hebrews applied the blood of the Passover lamb to their door frames. The death angel passed over their homes when he saw the blood. That’s why we don’t add anything to the blood of Christ. That’s Christianity.
Now Mormonism, which isn’t a Christian religion, has all sorts of add ons to their program because it’s all about becoming a god. You have to believe in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, the current prophet, you have to buy a ticket into the LDS temple with 10% of your income and then do “works” in the temple in the hopes of achieving god status. That’s your program and although it’s false, it’s your’s to do with what you want.
In Christianity there is One, eternal, everlasting, unchanging, holy God. He demands a perfect sacrifice to pay the debt for the sin of mankind. That perfect sacrifice was the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus and the application of His blood to our sin is the means of our salvation. That’s it!
Now if you want to know about the Bible; as Christians we believe that the Bible is the Word of God because the whole transcript is an inspired, faithful, and infallible record of what God intended us to know about Himself, the cosmos in which we live, our spiritual allies and adversaries, and out fellow man. The Bible, then, was produced by men whose recording of events was divinely supervised and preserved from all the frailties of human error and judgment.
cont.
When it comes to the Bible, God moved upon the minds and spirits of the recorders of Scripture that, despite limitations in language, culture, and even scientific knowledge, He produced His perfect message to mankind. When we speak of the inspiration of the Scriptures, then, we are talking about the process that God used to convey His message. The process is described by the Apostle Paul as a type of spiritual breathing. The Greek word used is theopneustos which literally means “God-breathed”.
The inspiration of the Bible and the concepts refer only to the initial “breathing” of God upon the authors of Scripture to produce a copy of His thoughts for man. It is for the original text of Scripture, revealed by God and faithfully recorded by His servants, that the Christian church claims infallibility.
Through the centuries God has preserved literally thousands of copies and fragments of these initial manuscripts with only minor transmissional mistakes made by scribes.
Historic Christianity affirms the plenary or “full” inspiration of the Bible, and it further holds that inspired concepts can be communicated only by inspired words. The church’s belief in the verbal inspiration of the Bible is logically inseparable from the doctrine of plenary inspiration.
(attribution: Essential Christianity by Dr. Walter Martin)
The Bible is God’s revealed Word, but it didn’t die for anyone’s sins. If someone believes in and accepts Jesus’ atoning sacrifice it would logically follow that they would believe in and trust what the Bible says. When we stand before God and He says, “Why should I let you into My heaven?” The answer is not, “I believed in the Bible.” The answer is, “I accepted, through faith, the shed blood of the Cross of Jesus Christ.”
Ralph this is a very difficult concept for Mormons to grasp because the whole Mormon program has as it’s goal, becoming a god. As long as you cling to that false hope, you will never understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Martin,
Thank you for my major laugh out loud this morning with your quote from the Mormon bishop that “the Catholics left it out”. I mean really, that points to how totally inane the Mormon thought process and limited understanding of Church history is. We can see in that one statement that degree to which one has to suspend credulity to be a TBM. It really would be funny except for the fact that Mormons are putting their faith in a false gospel that can’t provide eternal life. Just think of all of the things a Mormon has to believe in order to be a “real” Mormon. I think it’s instructive that the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot sects of Mormonism don’t buy the SLC program. It’s further instructive that even Joseph Smith’s wife Emma or his son Joseph didn’t accept the SLC brand of Mormonism and salvation. So in terms of Mormonism, it seems to me that the SLC bunch are apostate Mormons.
Bottom line, Joseph Smith was a false prophet with a false gospel. It takes extraordinary measures of false hope and faith to believe in and accept Smith’s false message.