Building Up the High Places

At NewsOK, November 30, 2009:

Utah’s Spanish Fork has Krishna temple

PROVO, Utah (AP) — Ask any Spanish Fork resident and they will be able to point you in the direction of one of the most unique buildings in town and possibly in the whole state. Perched on a hill just south of downtown Spanish Fork stands the Sri Sri Radha Krishna Temple. Completed in 2001, the Krishna Indian Hindu Temple certainly stands out among the surrounding rural fields.

Hare Krishna is an Eastern religion that worships Krishna, a god who appeared in India about 5,000 years ago. To followers, Krishna exhibited divinity unlike anyone before, during or since his time on earth. Krishna devotees, or Vaishnavas, spend their life studying and serving Krishna. Vaishnavas study a sacred Hindu scripture called the Bhagavad Gita…

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has supported the temple since its inception. In fact, the church gave $25,000 to help build it.

Hmmm. Passionate zeal for exclusive devotion to the true God is demanded throughout the entire Old Testament history of God’s dealings with His covenant people. When He led them into the land of Canaan, a land flowing with milk and honey, God ordered the complete destruction of all the marks of idolatry found in that place. The altars, the sacred pillars, the carved images were to be torn down. “You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree” (Deuteronomy 12:2). God demanded that His people be holy — set apart — and that they, like Him, not tolerate pagan religion. They were to guard the purity of their worship of the one true God lest the presence of false gods become too great a temptation and compromise that true worship.

Destroying places of false worship is not what God’s people are called to do in this current age of grace. Instead, followers of Christ are instructed to be patient while reasoning with those who are in opposition to the truth, and always be ready with an answer for the hope that is within them. Even so, in the New Testament the Apostle Paul reissues the call for God’s people to be set apart. He argues, “What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion dies a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:15-16).

A question arose in the New Testament church regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols in pagan rituals. Within the context of this discussion Paul asserts that, though an idol is nothing, behind pagan ritual is the reality of Satan’s work. These sacrifices are made to demons and not to God. “I do not want you to be participants with demons,” Paul says. His mandate is that believers flee from idolatry; have nothing to do with paganism (1 Corinthians 10:14-20).

Paul has given followers of Christ a rule to live by which is easily discerned: Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. All Christian behavior should be for the glory of God and for the salvation of the lost, taking care that nothing is done which would cause anyone to stumble (1 Corinthians 10:31-33).

So I wonder: What would the Apostle Paul have to say about the LDS Church’s large donation toward the building of a temple for the worship of a false god?


Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.


About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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149 Responses to Building Up the High Places

  1. jackg says:

    For the past few months I have posted rather benignly, as well as sporadically. I have read with amazement the faulty reasoning used by Mormons. I have noticed that my posts that were devoid of ad hominem were basically ignored and trampled over so everyone could get back to the person with whom they were contesting heatedly. So, I decide to defend my brother, Falcon, and go directly at sub, especially since his arrogance drips with venom and irrationality. So, what happens? He takes my first line out of context and thinks he one-ups me by saying that he will reciprocate and not read my post. But, he can’t control himself, chomping at the bit and, after my second post that contests his self-righteously failed attempt to educate on loving neighbor as a rationale for supporting idolatry, he responds with his usual impotent attempt at disarming the followers of Christ. So, what does this tell me? Mormons like sub are looking for a fight. They are not interested in or capable of an apologetic dialogue. I just want to say that most Mormons are not like sub. He is but a small representation of a people who believe they are worshiping the true and living God. It’s too bad a guy like sub gets all the attention we give him. He is at the precontemplative stage in his faith. He doesn’t have a clue that there’s a problem. We should focus our efforts on those who are contemplating that there just might be something wrong with the teachings of JS. Just my opinion.

    Blessings to all…

  2. grindael says:

    Mike R,
    Here is Joe on the Holy Ghost, as confused as always:

    Various and conflicting are the opinions of men in regard to the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Some people have been in the habit of calling every supernatural manifestation the effects of the Spirit of God, whilst there are others that think there is no manifestation connected with it at all; and that it is nothing but a mere IMPUSLSE OF THE MIND, or an INWARD FEELING, IMPRESSION, or SECRET TESTIMONY or evidence, which men possess, and that there is NO SUCH THING as an outward manifestation.

    Hmmm. This sounds familiar, (don’t the missionaries teach that now?) but he goes on:

    He then tells them not to seek after tongues, that no one understands how to prophecy, and that “those that are the most anxious to see these things, are the least prepared to meet them…”

    He then concludes with:

    Follow the directions of the Book of Mormon, and pray over, and for your
    families, your cattle, your flocks, your herds, your corn, and all things that you possess; ask the blessing of God upon all your labors, and everything that you engage in. Be virtuous and pure; be men of integrity and truth; keep the commandments of God; and
    then you will be able more perfectly to understand the difference between right and wrong…” (teachings pg 140-44)

    Sounds like the gift of the Holy Ghost to the ‘regular people’ is just to pray and God will bless you. So, to answer your question, (Joe sure did not) I would say NO, and Joe’s advice sure did not work in this case.

  3. falcon says:

    Was Smith a wolf in sheep’s clothing or what? What a self-righteous, pseudo-pious hypocrite! “Be virtuous and pure” should have been advice he took himself. I’ve seen guys like this in every walk of life. They don’t “have” blind spots, they “are” blind spots. In Nauvoo there were a significant number of people who figured it out and if it weren’t for Smith’s untimely death, I believe his sect would have shriveled-up and died because of his outrageous behavior. But Mormonism has created a caricature of Smith that didn’t exist in reality. When this is exposed Mormons either have to justify, rationalize or ignore the facts because they have too much invested in the Smith fantasy. The smart ones flee the program and save themselves further investment in a farce. Why do people believe Smith’s tale? Very simply, because they want to.

  4. falcon says:

    If Mormons had any clue of who God is, they wouldn’t be pouring financial support into a temple that honors a false god and an idol. But to them god is an open ended, free flowing ever changing entity that is a relative to all sorts of gods. So why not the Krishna god? What’s one more god among friends? After all, these Mormons are going to become one of them. It’s just one big happy family of gods, romping through the universe having inspirational multi-level marketing rallies with up-line and down-line gods alike comparing notes on how their minions are getting along on the planets that they, the gods, have created.
    If this sounds absurd, why? It’s all open to speculation in the wonderful wacky world that is Mormonism. The idea of course is not to lead with the “You Can Be A God Too” program but to keep it stuffed safely away until a prospect has been suitably indoctrinated into the cult.
    When one knows who God really is, the entangled fantasy of the Mormon narrative becomes more and more bizarre.

  5. Mike R says:


    You nailed it.It’s Jesus!

    Someone greater than the Temple has come.
    We come on bended knee and approach the
    throne of God, anywhere.No need for a
    “permission slip” to enter His presence( a
    temple recommend )signed by a sinner like
    all the rest. Jesus makes us worthy[Phil.3:9]
    to enter God’s presence.THANK YOU JESUS.


    I know it can be frustrating ministering to
    some Mormons.For the ones that seem to come
    off as arrogant we need patience to help
    them see their need of Jesus not Joseph.
    God can open Sub’s eyes,He’s done it many
    times for other Mormons like him!

    2 Tim.2:24-26

  6. setfree says:

    thanks to grindael for sharing Joe Smith’s description of Joe Smith’s Jesus:

    “He is about five feet high; very dark hair; dark complexion; dark skin; large
    Roman nose; sharp face; small black eyes, penetrating as eternity; round shoulders; a whining voice, except when elevated, and then it almost resembled the roaring of a lion. He was a good orator, active and diligent, always employing himself in doing good to his fellow man.” (Teachings, pg. 104)

    isn’t that description amazing? expecially how it fits to this:

    1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

    In contrast to the various verses about “roaring lion”s in the Bible (another good example is Proverbs 28:15 “[As] a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; [so is] a wicked ruler over the poor people.”), the BIBLICAL JESUS is the good Shepherd, who protects his sheep

    John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not throwing this out here for theatrics. I have believed for a long time that Joseph’s god is Satan. There is so much evidence for it. This is just another case.

    btw, John also gave a description of Jesus:

    Rev 1:14-15 “His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.”

    whiney voice indeed.

  7. setfree says:

    i looked up the quote of the above description, and the LDS sites are using it as a description JS gave of Paul, not Jesus. I am still looking for the original.
    However… if this is how JS described Paul, it’s no wonder that Sub thinks he’s apostate! lol

  8. falcon says:

    Orthodox Christianity claims that Jesus of Nazareth was God in human flesh. This doctrine is absolutely essential to true Christianity. If it is true, then Christianity is unique and authoritative. If not, then Christianity does not differ in kind from other religions. The basic logic of the apologetic for Christianity is that the NT is a historically reliable record of the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught that he was God Incarnate. Jesus proved to be God Incarnate by fulfilling OT prophecy, by a miraculous life and by rising from the grave. Jesus of Nazareth is Deity!
    Jesus claimed to be the Jehovah of the OT, from his acceptance of the titles of deity, from his messianic claims, from his acceptance of worship, from the implications of many of his actions, from the authority of his commands, and from the reaction of the first century monotheistic Jews to his claims and actions.
    In view of the fact that the Jehovah of the Jewish OT would not give his name, honor, or glory to another, it is little wonder that the words and deeds of Jesus drew stones and cries of “blasphemy” from first-century Jews. The very things that the Jehovah of the OT claimed for himself Jesus of Nazareth also claimed .
    The strongest and most direct claim of Jesus to be Jehovah is in John 8:58; “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” The Jews’ reaction left no doubt as to how they understood his claim. They knew he had claimed not only preexistence before Abraham but also equality with God.
    (attribution: “Christian Apologetics” by Norman Geisler)

  9. falcon says:

    So Jesus claimed to be Jehovah. Jesus claimed to be equal with God. He claimed to be able to forgive sins, which only God can do. Jesus claimed another power that only God could claim and that was the power to raise the dead. Not only did Jesus proclaim the authority to raise the dead but also to judge them. This authority to judge the dead, according to the Scriptures is reserved for Jehovah (Joel 3:12, Deut. 32:35)
    When Jesus claimed to fulfill the OT messianic predictions he also claimed the deity attributed to the Messiah in those passages (Isaiah 9:6).
    The OT not only predicted the Messiah but also proclaimed him to be God. And when Jesus claimed to be a fulfillment of the OT messianic passages (Luke 24:27, Matthew 26:54) he laid claim to possessing the deity these passages ascribed to the Messiah. Jesus removed all doubts of his intentions by his answer before the high priest at His trial.
    It is one thing for a first century Jew to claim to be God, but it is quite another to get other monotheistic Jews to believe it.
    Mormons do not know God. They do not know Jesus. They are willing to contribute money to build temples to false gods and in doing so agreeing with those who worship there. Mormons, through Joseph Smith, have tasted the spirituality of the dark side and are drawn to all of its manifestations. The deluding influence of the spirits of the dark side present themselves as angels of light and Mormons freely follow them to destruction.

  10. grindael says:

    The above IS joe’s description of PAUL, not Jesus. Don’t know how that got confused…

    joe gave this description of Jesus to Alexander Neibaur in 1844 (after the ‘official’ version was published saying He ‘defied all description’):

    “saw a fire toward heaven came near and nearer; saw a personage in the fire, light complexion, blue eyes, a piece of white cloth Drawn over his shoulders his right arm bear [bare]” (journal entry)

    This was also after his published ‘vision’ of Jesus he supposedly had with cowdery in the Kirtland temple where they describe Jesus more in line with the Book of Revelation [eyes flame of fire, voice like rushing winds, etc.]

    Neibaur was a german immigrant, and joe supposedly could speak German quite well (see teachings) so there should not have been a problem with miscommunication there. smith loved to embellish (could not help himself) see the quote of him having a conversation with Peter about Judas in my comments on the Micah page).

    Maybe he thought it would be more ‘believable’ if he described him so to Neibaur… who knows? joe loved to make it up as he went along, fortunately his fanatical followers were in the habit of writing down everything he said… I agree with falcon that if he had lived his cult would have self destructed a lot sooner. joe was his own worst enemy.

    That is why there are no ‘ongoing revelations’ added to the D&C now, the leaders in SLC are too cautious for that. It speaks volumes though, that they hire PR firms for opinion on how to market the cult.

    If they really had that connection like smith supposedly did, would that not be sufficient? Did they consult the PR firm about the good/bad of donating money to pagans? I would love to see the report on that… Perhaps Mormon Jesus directed the current leadership to consult PR firms, (It would leave him more time with all his spiritual wives and such, i guess) Do they have those spirit children one at a time, like we do? That would take a LONG time…

  11. subgenius says:

    a true understanding of God? such an ironic notion amongst so many posts.

    The arrogance by which a narrow and self-serving view of Our Heavenly Father can create.
    So many “versions” of the Bible, so many “opinions” that disregard the Rabbinic Hebrew Scripture which is the foundation,
    So many perversions the meaning of “love one another”, “love thy neighbor”, and “love God” to being bound only to its context and thus “surely” Jesus did not mean everyone. Thoe who look for such ‘loopholes’ will one day be without that luxury in escaping accountability.

    More revealing is the wholesale lack of understanding of the Hindu religion displayed by the Ev. The jack-boot “christian or die” crusader ego mentality of the Ev has come and gone and lacks any real foundation in the Gospel of our Savior. Just read this thread and see the claims of Hindu, Islam, etc…being viewed as sin-laden idolatry….it is a sad testimony to how perverse some “messages” can be. Those are the statements that reveal spiritual retardation, those are the people who lack our Savior’s grace in their heart.

    Yes, there are many similiarities between the Hindu faith and the Christian faith. It is these similarities and the strength of community that the LDS member can “build” upon. Establishing a positiverelationship with the Hindu community in our own neighborhood is a positive development. It not only strengthens the community, but it also allows the LDS church a “foot in the door”….and that door will open to a “bridge” which leads all the way to India.

    thankfully this thread has illuminated whom the prejudice and bigotry dwells with.

  12. grindael says:


    so what is the purpose of the ‘cuddling up here?’ to gain converts? why don’t you flat out tell your hindi friends that all you want to do is convert them to your cult? that your ‘gift of love comes with a price? who is being dishonest? i think your post answers that question sub.

    you called my analogy with the gays ‘shallow’ but it is your cult that is shallow. i don’t see the same kind of love being offered to the splinter groups in Utah, the gays, or any other group the cult of smith cant ‘micro-manage’.

    the racism and bigotry of the cult of joe is well documented, believe me i can quote it all the way up to the 1980s’.

    after that, your leaders went underground with it, but it is still there.

    this ‘outpouring of love’ on the part of the joe cult is just a smoke-screen, a devil’s advocate ploy that is transparent and unscriptural.

    you assume no one knows what the hindi’s believe, another ignorant, blanket statment from a cult poster that has to lash out because he can’t defend the actions and statements of his leaders.

    how will the cult of joe answer to the Lord when just ONE of those hindi, because you helped them finance their temple do not come to the LORD? Can you guarantee all of their salvation? How wrong does something have to be before it makes an impact on you?

  13. grindael says:

    From the Historical Record:

    Jan 23,1852 – Brigham Young instructs Utah Legislature to legalize slavery because “we must believe in slavery.”

    Dec 15,1858 – Young readily grants divorce to unhappy plural wives but requires husbands to pay him personally a $10 fee ($214.50 in 2001 U.S. dollars). Young issues 1,600 certificates of divorce for unhappy polygamous marriages. (This equals 16 thousand dollars, or $343,200 2001 U.S. dollars)

    Aug 20,1859 – Brigham Young regarding slavery: “We consider it of divine institution, and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants.

    Sep 7,1859 – Salt Lake City clerk records sale of twenty six year old “negro boy” for $800 to William H. Hooper. Until federal law ends slavery in U.S. Territories in 1862, some African-American slaves are paid as tithing, bought, sold and otherwise treated as chattel in Utah.

    June 4,1879 – John Taylor and apostles decline to allow Elijah Abel to receive temple endowment because he is Negroid, even though Abel received Melchizedek priesthood with Joseph Smith’s authorization in 1836. This African American regularly attends his Seventy’s quorum meetings and serves proselyting mission just before his death in 1888.

    May 18,1894 – In Salt Lake Temple, “Jane Elizabeth Manning (a Negro woman) is sealed as a servitor for eternity to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Joseph F. Smith acts as proxy

    Oct 24,1894 – Wilford Woodruff and his two counselors each give approval for Apostle Abraham H Cannon to marry another plural wife. In all, ten general authorities marry post-Manifesto plural wives by permission of church president or his counselors during next ten years.

    Mar 2,1904 – Before committee of U.S. Senate, Joseph F. Smith testifies: “I have never pretended to nor do I profess to have received revelations. I never said that I had a revelation except so far as God has shown me that so-called Mormonism is God’s divine truth, that is all.”

  14. grindael says:

    Jan 10,1906 – First Council of Seventy instructs B.H.Roberts to go to Los Angeles for “recuperation from a weakness for liquor that had fastened itself upon him.”

    At one of the earliest meetings of this [High] council [in 1834] over which the Presidency of the Church presided, the following action was taken: The question was asked: “Whether disobedience to
    the word of wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him?” After a free and full discussion, Joseph Smith the Prophet
    gave the following decision which was unanimously accepted by the council: “No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the word of wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with and obey it.”

    Mar 22,1919 – “The Nigger” is the new production to be given at the Social Hall, proclaims Deseret News with explanation: “The Nigger” is distinctly Southern. It is a romance based on Southern ideals and the race problem

    Dec 9,1933 – Church News article “Mormonism in The New Germany,” enthusiastically emphasizes parallels “between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists.” First, Nazis have introduced “Fast Sunday.” Second, “it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. Finally, due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

    Jan 25,1936 – Church News Section photograph of LDS basketball team in Germany giving “Sieg Heil: salute of Nazi Party.

  15. grindael says:

    Aug 17,1951 – First Presidency statement that church’s restriction on negroid peoples receiving priesthood “is not a matter of the declaration of policy but of direct commandment from the Lord.”

    March 30,1955 – Quorum of Twelve recommends establishment of separate unit or branch for African-American members in Salt Lake City.

    Nov 10,1960 – Brigham Young University’s president tells Executive Committee of BYU’s trustees “about a colored boy on campus having been a candidate for the vice presidency of a class and receiving a very large vote.” The three apostles present want to exclude all African Americans from BYU. “If a granddaughter of mine should ever go the BYU and become engaged to a colored boy,” Apostle Harold B. Lee fumes, “I would hold you responsible!”

    Sep 19,1962 – First Presidency rules that prominent Egyptian polygamist can be baptized because polygamy is legal in Egypt. This is in reference to “an earlier ruling in the matter of Indians who had married more than one wife and it was decided that they may be baptized, if they were legally married according to their tribal customs.”

    March 3,1965 – Apostle Harold B. Lee is “protesting vigorously over our having given a scholarship at BYU to a negro student from Africa. Brother Lee holds the traditional belief as revealed in the Old Testament that the races ought to be kept together and that there is danger in trying to integrate them on the BYU campus.”

    June 17,1978 – Church News headline “Interracial Marriage Discouraged” in same issue which announces authorization of priesthood for those of black African descent. Sources at church headquarters indicate that Apostle Mark E. Petersen requires this emphasis.

    May 18,1993 – Apostle Boyd K. Packer tells All-Church Coordinating Council that LDS church faces three major threats: “The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars..

  16. falcon says:

    I’ve enjoyed reading your excellent lists. Of course you know, however, that none of this matters one wit to our dedicated TBMs. You know that once someone receives their testimony that the Smith tale is true, nothing matters from that point on except of course that the believer continue to pay their 10% to the morg machine.
    Your list does make all the difference for those who have begun to figure out that the Smith cult is not as advertised. Facts are stubborn things and the facts that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Smith was a fraud and his religion a hoax will be greatly appreciated by those Mormon lurkers who come here looking for real information and not the sanitized form that comes from the cult.
    The excellent article that Sharon posted demonstrates that the Mormon church will attach itself to anything that is in the tradition and spirit of the occultist Smith. I’m quite surprised the Mormon church doesn’t sell Joseph Smith commemorative seer stones just to raise a little more cash. Couldn’t you just see the apostle Paul raising an offering to build a Corinthian temple to the goddess Dianna? The action of the Mormon church connecting itself to the pagan temple tells us all we need to know about Mormonism and the spirit they claim as their god.

  17. subgenius says:

    since brevity is lost perhaps we should look up verbose?
    i defy you to name one organized religion in america that did not have, at one time or another, a racist, sexist, or otherwise socially controversial policy, statement, or authority. your insistance that LDS is somehow the sole proprietor of this type of history just further erodes any intellectual credibility you may have had and your goose-stepping along with falcon all but turns to water your already diluted Gospel view.
    homosexual marriage and hindu faith are apples and oranges and though your opinions on this topic are fruity, you are obvious ill-equipped to have a meaningful discussion about either.
    support gay-marriage if you want, but you do not have the liberty to tell me that i should…this is by far the greates hubris of the modern Ev…that they alone hold the key to understanding God and the Scriptures…but their words and deeds show that the tree that bears their fruit is far from the grove of righteousness.
    by the way what denomination are you?, let us examine the validity of your church through a historical political view and let that crucible validate the worthiness of your faith.

    lather, rinse, and repeat

  18. grindael says:

    I would think you would love reading about the history of your cult, since it boasts of being the only true religion on the face of the earth. It also boasts that it’s ‘prophets’ are in constant contact with God, and that they cannot lead anyone astray.

    With this in mind, your logic is ill-conceived when you want to lump smith’s cult in with the rest of Christianity. Joe is the one who separated himself out, Joe is the one who called all of Christianity ‘corrupt’ and an ‘abomination’, and Joe is the one who said it would sweep the earth, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

    I don’t support gay marriage, by the way, I was just pointing out that (according to YOUR logic) your cult should be doing the same thing for them (whom your cult hates so much), because you said (by denigrating Christian comments) Jesus love should include everyone. Again you show your hypocrisy. The quotes speak for themselves. You are upset because I’ve brought them to light (& it is just the beginning.)

    In 1933 your cult was all excited about a leader named Hitler. I find it curious that those that claimed God’s continuous guidance and revelation could support (to gain access to geneology records?) one of the most evil men in all of history.
    What, your Prophet didn’t know? No Second Comforter? They have Joe’s stone, perhaps they should learn to use it?

  19. falcon says:

    Mormons have made a choice to follow any available god as long as this god runs contrary to the God that reveals Himself in the Bible. The early Mormon temples were hot beds of occult activity. Joe’s magic rock was even placed on the alter of one of these temples of doom at it’s dedication. Let me quote:
    “The Temple at Manti was dedicated in May, 1888. First there was a private dedication of it on the 17th by President Wilford Woodruff, George A. Cannon and a number of the Twelve Apostles, among them Lorenzo Snow, president of the quorum,….
    One item mentioned by President Woodruff about the private dedicatory services at Manti is of more than passing interest. ‘Before leaving,’ he writes, ‘I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth (ground), and carried by him through life.’ This is the very Seer Stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the BoM; the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra, for Mr. Clark Chase….”
    Maybe somebody can check this out, did the Mormon church lend the Krishna crew the magic rock when they dedicated their temple? It would seem only fitting since Mormonism claims as their guiding spirit a being that would be right as home in any pagan temple. This was the same spirit that coughed-up the gold plates that Joe didn’t have in his presence when he “interpreted” them. Some trick I’d say, but when you’ve got a magic rock and a magic hat, hay anything is possible. By the way is this the same magic hat that Frosty the Snowman had when he came to life one day?

  20. falcon says:

    Under the heading of “any spirit will do” we have the following story:
    “The angry leader of the Navajos approached the trembling white man and tore open the front of his shirt. When he saw the marks of the priest hood upon his clothing, the spirit of the war party instantly left the face of the chieftain, and the smile of a friend played upon his rugged features. Removing the buckskin thong which bound the captive, the venerable red man explained: ‘Many moons ago, when my people were good, and the Great Spirit often visited them, they were permitted to wear those same marks in their clothing; but when my people went to war, and forgot the teachings of the Great Spirit, he never came to them any more, and they were not permitted thereafter to place those marks in their clothing.’ ”
    Pretty cool huh? The animist natives even had the marks of the priesthood until they started being naughty. Is this just more of Mormon folk lore? Who knows but it fits perfectly with the guiding spirit of Mormonism and the realm of the spirit world that Mormons tap into. Knowing how the Mormon mind works, I can see where Mormons would get all fired-up thinking that the ancient peoples also had the signs of the priesthood. Just one more solid proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the BoM is true. Doesn’t say if the natives had magic rocks. Ah, I guess that would be just too much to ask.

  21. grindael noted

    May 18,1894 – In Salt Lake Temple, “Jane Elizabeth Manning (a Negro woman) is sealed as a servitor for eternity to the Prophet Joseph Smith.” Joseph F. Smith acts as proxy

    Where does this stop?

    I mean, its one thing to subject a person to chattel slavery in this life, but yet another to seal their status in eternity as well. All by proxy (I wonder how this fits with the values of free election that Mormons love to tout – maybe its just free election for those who are “white and delightsome”).

    These Mormons hold a lot of power.

    Thank God that this power has been crushed by God in Christ (Col 2:15). That’s where is stops; at the Cross of Christ.

    Sub, I’m guessing you think that Jesus is your freind. He is not. He is your worst enemy. He will come to you like a thief in the night and take from you what you value most (Matt 24:43-44).

    I advise that you to follow the example of the Wise King who, seeing that he had no hope of defending himself against his adversary, went out and sued for peace (Luke 14:31-33).

  22. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Unfortunately, I am late to this thread and it has been a while. Just finished watching the Christmas devotional and feeling a desire to follow the Savior with a little more zeal. What a contrast to come to this blog and see this thread.

    I don’t believe the church paid for anything and if they did the question is moot anyway. the MRM group already believes we spend millions each year building false places of worship, what’s another $25K?

    Hoping this crew will humble themselves (mainly their so-called intellect) and come to the Savior.

  23. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    I see you are the lone defender these days. I applaud your valiance! I feel for you with the attack of these guys. I am reminded that the definition of Satan is “the accuser”. How appropriate for this website! If there ever was a “precepts of men” forum, we have found it here.

    Continue to remain valiant in your testimony of Jesus!

  24. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Falcon’s favorite topic is “Joe and the magic hat”. I love it when he rants about this because it brings up an underlying premise that becomes evident the more you listen to these guys. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE!

    I could easily substitute….”Moe and the magic stick”….or “Jesus and the magic clay”. Falcon would mock these guys to scorn… the same prophets he claims to follow would be nothing more than con-artist magicians to him.

    I do consider some of my EV’s “smart” Christians and they steer far away from condemning these miracle working mediums, because they are well-aware of where the roots lie. Not so here and it’s a dead give away…actually takes all the fun out of it.

    Moroni saw this way in advance…”and I know you doing”. God be thanked for the priceless gift of ancient and modern prophets.

  25. bfwjr says:

    premixed, premeasured,disposable

  26. grindael says:


    The difference between the miracles of the Bible and those of joe the peeper is that they actually WERE miracles. We are not the ones who scorn the Bible.

    I think there are enough quotes from your leaders to prove that point.

    Jesus verified the prophets and apostles of the Bible. joe could not even get his description of Jesus straight.

    You ignore Brigham Youngs teaching of false doctine (according to McConkie) and that he said God allows it in your cult. How many believed Young and were ‘damned’ because of it? Then you have other leaders swearing they cannot be led astray by any prophet? Which is it? You have early cult leaders affirming that the ban on the priesthood to the blacks is a COMMANDMENT, but you have Hinkley saying it was their ‘interpretation of scripture’. Which is it? (I can do this all day) guess i’m too verbose. You have no logical answers, so you attack those who are defending Christianity against joe’s attack. We are all ‘corrupt’ and an ‘abomination’ according to him. joe threw down the guantlet when he said ‘I have the truth and I defy the world to contradict me if they can.” I can, have and will continue to do so.

    You turn a blind eye to obvious lies and blunders from men who claim God is ‘their right hand man’ yet you tell us WE don’t believe the Bible? The Tanners had it right, your cult is a ‘shadow’ and your comparisons of joe’s ‘peeping’ and made-up revelations to the Bible is sad. Sad for all those honest people who still believe the lies.

    I’ll keep posting those lies in the hopes that some of them will see the light and come to Jesus.
    Not mormon-jesus, but the real Jesus of the Bible.

  27. jeffrey b says:

    Yes.. Why don’t we all learn a thing from the almighty (some day, right?) Sub, and cuddle up to Satan, maybe give him a back rub, support his desire to lead people away from Jesus Christ so maybe we could end up converting him.

    Sub, hypothetically asking, would you support building a “temple” (with money or talents) in which children were raped and murdered on the inside? Just think, you could be building a bridge with this hypothetical group in which maybe you can convert them.

    Answer that truthfully.

  28. falcon says:

    The confusion with our Mormon friends regarding the spirits they follow is very much illustrated by their pathetic and totally blind responses they offer here. Following a deceitful spirit causes them to speak and act in a like manner. They’ve tasted the spirit of the dark side and they positively love it. The amount of spiritual discernment practiced by these folks is totally zero.
    So why do I constantly make this the subject of my posts? Because its what Mormonism is all about. There is no point in discussing works vs. grace and any other topic when engaging folks who follow a totally different god. Can we imagine being in such total spiritual darkness that you would willingly follow a guy who ran around the country with a magic rock trying to find Captain Kidd’s buried treasure? It’s laughable, but tragic and at the same time instructive as to what happens to someone’s judgment when they give themselves over to deceitful lying spirits.
    This is the entire point of Christian apologetics in dealing with cult members.
    The Mormon church has willingly thrown in with the Krishna spirit. This is consistent with a religion (Mormonism) that seeks contact with spirit beings through its temple rituals. It’s all documented by Mormons themselves. That’s why their are those that get freaked out when they go through the temple. They get one wiff of the bizarre goings-on and want nothing more to do with it. Others jump in whole-hog thinking that this is really good stuff.
    I continue to write about this in hope that those that jackg identifies as at the contemplative stage will wise-up, look into this further and extract themselves from this cult.

  29. falcon says:

    So here’s an account from a Mormon temple that will get our Mormom posters all excited and deepen their faith in the spirit of Mormonism.
    “Persons have told me of seeing their dead friends for whom they have officiated, manifesting themselves to them. In my own case, in May, 1877, when endowments were being given for my mother by Sister Harriet Y. Brown of Kanab, I knew my mother was there and remained all through the services. She went with us into the sealing room, and twice, while I was at the altar, I turned my head to look at her, for I felt her presence by me. Though I did not see her features, I knew she was there, and knew when she left the room after the ceremony was completed.
    I kept no notes of these occurrences, but many persons in diverse ways have known of the presence of their friends or relatives while officiating for them; all this shows conclusively to me how anxious many of our kindered are to receive the Gospel and its great blessings, and that our dead are not far from us…..”
    Isn’t that just great? Dead people showing up for this seance. I believe this is called nacromancy and is forbidden by the Bible. Mormons don’t care because it reinforces what they have accepted as true. And they get such a bang out of it. A super emotional buzz that keeps them dressing up in their costumes hoping that maybe, just maybe, they’d get a glimpse of these spirits from the other side.
    This is the part of Mormonism that Mormons like to keep secret under the guise that it’s sacred. Reinforcing a lie doesn’t make the lie true. It just sucks the poor dupe who buys it further down the dark spiritual vortex and makes escape much more difficult.

  30. setfree says:

    What gets so frustrating about communicating out here on this site, is this:

    Mormonism’s primary, fundamental, absolute truth is that “the church is true”.

    Every issue that comes along gets only as much thought as is allowed by “the church is true”

    It doesn’t matter where the church puts its money. It doesn’t matter what Joe Smith and other prophets ever did said.
    Nothing matters.
    Except that the church is, and always will be, true.

    It’s only those Mormons who dare challenge this underlying assumption who can hear what is being said out here.

  31. liv4jc says:

    There is another aspect to Smith’s church assisting a pagan religion to set up shop in the heart of Mormon country. When the Israelites moved into the promised land God commanded them to destroy the nations that inhabited it.

    “When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images, and burn their carved images with fire. (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

    Why was this to be done?

    “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.(Deuteronomy 9:4)

    Not only does YHWH hate idolotry, he also wants to protect His people from its influence. The Israelites disobeyed God’s commands by not utterly destroying every vestige of the enemies of God to their own destruction, as he had promised.

    It stands to reason that if God wanted to remove idolotry from a land before His people possessed it, he would’t want them to invite it in either as it would lead His people astray just the same.

  32. liv4jc says:

    Smith’s church believes in absolute free will. Each person has agency to make either a choice for good or a choice for evil, and their eternal security and reward is based upon these choices. Followers of Smith are warned against reading material that is not faith-promoting as it can lead them away from the truth.

    I have been approached by Hare Krishna’s who want to give me books in airports. Hare Krishnas proselytize. Their idolotry is not benign and they seek to make converts. Why would Smith’s church invite a destructive influence into their community? Especially since they acknowledge that a person’s free-agency can allow them to be led astray to their eternal detriment.

    Sub has been hoorahed by his Smithian brothers for “showing the love of Christ” for claiming that the church is just showing kindness and goodwill towards others. If I want to convert Hare Krishna’s I go to them, I don’t allow them a foothold into my community if at all possible. In much of the rest of the nation this is not possible, but we’re talking about Utah, a state that is closer to a theocracy than any other. Even if I can’t legally stop the building of a temple of idolotry, I certainly wouldn’t support it.

  33. setfree says:

    Dotf threw this out earlier:

    “I am reminded that the definition of Satan is “the accuser”. ”

    Firstly, is there someone out here that cannot fall under your accusation, or does it just apply to the Christians?

    Secondly, it never fails that a Mormon, when their religion is shown to have problems, gets personal, and starts either accusing the one with the evidence of personal evil, or else starts pulling the “poor me”, “you’re all out to get us”

    Thirdly.. and this one is most important…
    Satan is YOUR accuser. He goes to God with your sins, and always brings them to light so that you will be damned. Jesus, on the other hand, is in the Advocate position, meaning that when Satan brings an accusation against someone who is “in Christ”, Christ says “nope, he’s with me”, and that’s that.

    Why do Mormons take attacks on their church so personally? Why can’t they see the difference between pointing out where evil hides, and judging someone’s soul?

    I think those questions have been answered before…

    DOTF, if your house was on fire, I would not say “hey, nice house you have there”. I’d say “GET OUT!”

    And that’s why, personally, I am here to accuse the LDS church. So that you will GET OUT!

    More importantly, though, I hope that your getting out would mean that you were coming to Jesus, and not just leaving the church. Lots of Mormons just leave the church with the belief if that church wasn’t telling the truth, no church/religion/book/teacher/faith does, and that the BIble should never be considered.

  34. jeffrey b says:

    Sub, im still looking for your answer to my question, don’t forget it please.

  35. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Falcon is so hard to take serious. Think of the irony of this statement from him….

    “There is no point in discussing works vs. grace and any other topic when engaging folks who follow a totally different god.” Yet the Falc must be one of, if not the highest poster on this blog. So why are you blogging here then, Falcon? I know why (‘they lie in wait to deceive’) and that’s the spirit of discernment within me.

  36. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Gindael stay with me for a minute and let’s stick to one issue. I just can’t handle the shotgun approach. (I do have a simple mind).

    Miracles: Falcon loves to bring up the so-called “magic rock”. I think it is a common rhetorical tactic. He is painting a picture that JS is some sort of witch-doctor because he is using a telestial object to perform a miracle. Why would I think that you or Falcon would accept Moses without saying he used a “magic stick”? or can I really believe he wouldn’t mock the Savior using some “magic clay”? It’s a smokescreen. Are you and Falcon saying that miracles cannot be performed through telestial materials? If so, then you don’t believe the Bible. If not, on what grounds can you condemn JS for using a rock?

  37. DefenderOfTheFaith says:


    you addressed a few things there. I just want to make clear that I am not in the business of accusing anyone of anything. Although the Lord commands us to “say nothing but repentance unto this generation” I actually feel more inclined to apply that to my own weaknesses than to poke holes in others. True, we could all be a bit more humble out here, LDS and EV’s alike. I suppose it is so hard to bite the tongue when such blatant misrepresentations are displayed. Nevertheless, my easy lot cannot compare to burden borne by previous generations of the covenant people.

  38. DoF wrote

    Why would I think that you or Falcon would accept Moses without saying he used a “magic stick”?

    One important difference is that Moses used a “magic stick” (to borrow your terminology) and the Bible says he used a “magic stick”.

    That’s called transparency.

    Joseph Smith used a “magic rock” by putting it in a hat and burying his face in hit. If that’show he did his “translations”, why not just say so. Why all the unsubstantiated propaganda about being able to read, comprehend and translate an unknown language (into 17th Century English, no less)?

    That’s called obfuscation.

    How will you feel when the Light of the World exposes all these grubby secrets to the judgment of God? You have no defense.

  39. grindael says:


    Coupla things. Joe did his ‘magic trick’ hidden from view among a very small number of people. Moses stood among the whole court of Pharaoh.

    Joe’s ‘peeping’ is on record. He was arrested for it.

    His motives are questionable, his accounts are ‘fuzzy’, and his cult hides his ‘quirks’ every chance it gets.

    You can’t compare YOUR prophets to ANY from the Bible. They do not stand up to scrutiny. He botched the BOA, the Kinderhook Plates and the Book of Mormon has so many problems and changes that it is obvious it is phony.

    His ‘magik stone’ is a farce, as he was.

  40. Amen, Grindael, and an important point: the Gospel of the Bible is public, transparent, open to scrutiny, available for inspection.

    The Light of the World does not need to hide, or re-tell the truth in a “faith promoting” way, or spin away from somebody’s unfavourable assessment. He is who He is, and when He comes, He drives out the darkness before Him (John 8:12). He “puts it out there”, for everyone to see. He puts Himself “out there”, in the public square, for everyone to see.

    How can you reconcile this Christ with the LDS’ habituation to secret ceremonies, hidden “truths”, refusal to be scrutinized, and denial of accountability?

    You can’t.

    That’s why you will not find the Christ of the Bible in their temples.

  41. Grindael,

    You remind me of Ezekiel, when he dug through the wall of the temple to find it filled with detestable things. From Ezekiel 8:7-12…

    Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. He said to me, “Son of man, now dig into the wall.” So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there.

    And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and detestable animals and all the idols of the house of Israel. In front of them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

    He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.’ ”

  42. Andy Watson says:

    The Japanese dive bomber story and Joseph Smith’s most excellent adventure in the woods at age 14 (the First Vision) are the same thing: a myth.

    You see, I can write a short post.

  43. subgenius says:

    jeffrey b

    “Sub, hypothetically asking, would you support building a “temple” (with money or talents) in which children were raped and murdered on the inside”

    this is an absurd hypothesis, especially in the context of this thread, and trying to equate the Hindu faithful with pedophiles and murderers is logically and spiritually irresponsible and basically immature.

    That being said let us look to our Savior…
    a simple education, modest circumstance, living amongst a people that had known bondage, bondage from the egyptians and currently bondage from the Romans. Romans who have a propensity for harsh treatment of those in their bondage. Romans had a tradition of leaving unwanted children at the outskirts of town, abandoned, often with the notion that if one “picked up” that child they were entitled to keep that child as a slave. Romans also tortured people, were self-indulgent, practiced idolatry, raped, murdered, conquered and oppressed….but what did our Savior say of how these Romans and how they should be treated?….what audacity did Jesus display amongst his own people who suffered under the Roman yoke?…surely the Ev will be no less surprised than a Pharisee at the answers to these questions.
    just to name a few…
    Romans 12:14-21
    1 Peter 3:9
    John 13:34
    Luke 6:27-28
    1 Corinthians 4:12

    interesting footnote
    the Ev claim that God’s law has been fulfilled and is all but archaic…only need to follow JC, like us Mormons do…but see the posts above where they rely on this Law to condemn others, to seek vengenance, to act in accord with a law that has been fulfilled…..Ev indeed.

  44. mobaby says:


    From your answer to jeffrey b, I take it that in your equation, sexual and physical wickedness is less acceptable than spiritual wickedness. So, what about the witches coven or a Unitarian Universalist Church that focuses on Neo-Paganism – no overt sexual sin or murder – would the good faith Mormons be righteously correct in helping build a pagan worship center? Oh wait, they already did. So, I guess the answer is yes, pagan spiritism and witchcraft would be fine, after all this is the pagan heritage of most of those of European descent (before the arrival of Christianity).

    On the law, you mischaracterize the Christian position. By all means, the law is to be preached and taught and studied. The law is what shows us our inability to save ourselves and drives us to Jesus for forgiveness. The law reveals our sin and calls us to repentance. The law is not archaic by any means and applies to everyone today. The law shows us that we all have “pagan” hearts in rebellion against God. What is the summary of the law? Love. Love of neighbor and God. Do we do this? No, everyone fails miserably. That is why we need the forgiveness and salvation that comes through Christ alone.

  45. grindael says:

    subgenius is either being very cunning, or he is a novice on the scriptures. No one here has posted anything about hating the hindis. They are NOT christians, and so it is our task to convert them to the true way. It does not serve God’s purpose to help them build temples to false deities.

    You can love the sinner but not help them to sin. I hope he understands exactly what that means, but if he wants to twist the scriptures, well, it is plain to all what he is doing. He talks of vengence and condemning others, but it is not the focus of the topic. It is supporting the building of a temple to a false religion.

    If sub had bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND the above posts he would have read things such as this:

    You can help the pagan in the street if he is hungry, homeless, and teach them about God, it is another thing entirely to help them build a temple to worship false gods.

    They do worship false Gods. They might say that there are many paths to God, but there is only one: Jesus.

    If sub feels backed into a corner, perhaps he should re-evaluate himself and his cult.

  46. liv4jc says:

    DOTF, your comparison between Moses’ rod, the clay Jesus used on the blind man in John 9, and Joe’s rock is comparing apples and oranges. This cannot go unanswered because it shows the excuse making that goes on in Smith’s church based upon faulty exegesis.

    From Exodus 3:13 we find Moses questioning God as to his ability to convince anyone that YHWH has actually sent him. God first tells Moses to tell the Israelites that “I AM has sent me to you.” (Ex 3:14). Next, after God has assured him that He would deliver Eqypt, Moses still doubts his ability to convice anyone: “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘The LORD has not apppeared to you.'” So the LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A rod.” And He said, “Cast it to the ground…” (Ex 4:1-3) Had Moses gone into Pharaoh’s court with or without the rod Pharaoh was not going to believe him. How do I know this? Because in Exodus 3:19 God says prior to Moses wanting a sign to give them as proof, “But I am sure that the King of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. So I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders….” The signs that YHWH was God over all the earth and greater than the gods of Egypt were the plagues, not the works done with Moses’ rod. The works of God would be done with or without the rod. The rod was more for Moses’ benefit to give him confidence and was not used for “magical” purposes prior to this.

    Compare this to the purposes for which Joe had used his rock. Prior to being used for translating, it had been used to look for buried treasure and remote viewing of a farm. God never gave Joe a command to use the rock to prove that He was working in Joe for any purpose.

  47. rvales says:

    Mormons, what would you say to God if he asked you right now why you should be admitted into the highest level of heaven (or even the middle level)?
    In regards to the law-
    It has been fulfilled for those who are in Christ. I am no longer condemned by the law because I have accepted Christ’s atonement for my sins. Christ fulfilled the law for me. Everyday I continually see my need for Christ’s work on the cross because everyday I fail in one or multiple aspects of the law. For those who are not saved in Christ they will be condemned by the law. Either by denial of God completely or a rejection of Christ’s total atonement for sins, they will be cast out because they break God’s commandments knowingly and unknowingly, because our hearts are selfish and dead (remember these are God’s standards not human which is why He is justified in condemning even seemingly ‘good’ people) This is discussed in Galatians 5:2-3 when the gentiles are told (incorrectly) that their faith in Jesus must be coupled with circumcision (an aspect of the Law) for them to be counted saved. Paul corrected this and told them that if they become circumcised (in an attempt to keep the Law and get the fullness of the blessings) that Christ doesn’t benefit them and that they are then subject to the whole law (which they will not be able to keep and will then be damned). Much like the Mormon belief that following the WoW and temple ordinances are necessary to receive the full blessings, they are adding the law to Christ’s atonement and just like the Galatians they are showing their lack of faith that Christ really did pay their debt in full.

  48. liv4jc says:

    (cont) When Martin Harris reported to his wife that Joe was translating the plates, she hid the translation and demanded proof that Joe could repeat the act. Of course he could not, so Joe feigned that he and Martin were chastised by God because Martin’s wife was trying to frustrate the work of God. That is ridiculous. God’s work cannot be frustrated. If, as D&C 10 claims, God’s work could be frustrated because Harris’ wife was going to change her copies so that Joe’s retranslation would show errors, then we have a mighty weak God. The God of the Bible would have all things done in the open to prove to the world that He was indeed working through Joe, and the plates were real. But no, God takes away the Urim and Thummim and has Joe not re-translate. The Mormon god is a coward working through a Ouji board medium in the form of Joe Smith and his rock. This section of the D&C is so transparent it makes me wonder how anyone cannot see the juvenile shenanigans going on through the spiritual coercion of Joe Smith.

    There is no comparison to the proof offered to Pharaoh and his court through Moses’ rod, and the fakery accomplished by JS and his rock. One was done in the open to show the power of God, the other was done in secret so no one could ever prove that Joe didn’t have the plates.

    As far as the “magic” clay goes, Jesus purpose in using the clay was to show the blindness of the Pharisees. This healing was done on the sabbath (John 9:14,16). Making clay on the sabbath was a violation of the law. Instead of focusing on the miraculous work done by Jesus (a miracle that only God could accomplish), they focused on the fact that he had broken the sabbath by making clay (which he put on the man’s eyes). Notice the Pharisees’s focus in John 9:16 : “This man is not from God, because he does not keep the Sabbath.”

    Not magic, judgment. There is no comparison between Joe’s magic rock and the works of God in the Bible.

  49. subgenius says:

    you “take it” incorrectly. ou are assuming that child molestation/murder is only a physical wickedness…i would assume that those actions are actually both spiritually and physically wicked….whereas you seem to equate Hinduism with solely spiritual wickedness…ergo, the child abuse is much worse, right?
    Glad you agree with me on the “Law”, because that means there is still “work” to be done, right?

    “It does not serve God’s purpose…”

    so it is you that has come to proclaim that which is God’s purpose?…how prophetic of you?
    point of fact, jeffrey b attempted to parralell the Hindu with child abusers.
    I also suggest that you re-visit the 2nd commandment in Exodus 23:3-4 …notice that false god and “carved images” are distinct from each other…as is idolatry from false god. This is why graven images are addressed seprately in the decalogue… clarify this reference the calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai…this calf ultimately represented the true god, but it was a “graven image”….ponder that lesson as you gaze at the gold cross hanging from a chain around a “faithful” neck.
    Point being that idols do not always point to false gods (and yes, idols are still wrong even when “pointing” at the One True God, yes?)

    Better question for you
    —–> would you explain to me how Hinduism (specifically the branch practiced at this temple) is a “false” religion? Maybe provide just a few facts (and yes, i am baiting you).

    by the way..grindael…what was your denomination again? do you belong to an organized church?…do you dare share its name with me? will your church survive like-minded historical scrutiny in the light of sexism and racism? 😉

    by the way, i am surprised that no one bothere to read the full AP article about this event because the final sentence of the article sure would be fodder for the Ev cannon.

  50. subgenius says:


    …sorry about all the bold type on previous post….my typo

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