The Bible talks about church discipline. With a double emphasis on holding firmly to the truth and living a moral life, the New Testament says the church (the body of true believers) is to call sinners to repentance. If someone is accepted as part of the visible church but refuses to repent of sin, whether it is of a moral nature or a heretical nature, the church is to turn them out of the fellowship.
For example, 1 Corinthians 5 tells of a man in the church who is proudly unrepentant of his blatant immorality. Paul instructs, “Let him who has done this be removed from among you” (1 Corinthians 5:2). Following this pronouncement Paul includes, “Purge the evil person from among you” (1 Corinthians 5:13).
When Paul wrote to Titus, he warned about a person who “stirs up division” within the church with unsound doctrine. Paul says, “…after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned” (Titus 3:10-11).
Jesus spoke about what to do with unrepentant people in the church also. After approaching the person twice with a call to repentance, “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector,” Jesus said (Matthew 18:15-20).
In 2 Corinthians Paul warns the church about people who teach heresy for truth. He calls them “false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). Paul told the Corinthians, “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?…’Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord'” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).
Why do I bring this up? A friend of mine once said, “Mormons want to be embraced as part of the Christian church, but they wouldn’t be happy with the reality. For if they were part of the visible church, they would be subject to discipline for believing the heretical doctrines the LDS Church teaches.”
What would the result of such church discipline look like on a corporate scale? It would look exactly like what we see today. In obedience to the mandates of Scripture, the greater Christian church would denounce Mormonism and remove it from among us. The Christian church would purge itself of LDS heresy. It would have nothing more to do with Mormonism. We would be obligated to obey the command to be separate from the LDS Church, for what fellowship has light with darkness?
If Joseph Smith and his followers were ever embraced as part of Christianity, if Joseph ever taught his followers the true nature of God as God has revealed Himself in the Bible, when Joseph began to teach that God the Father became a God by obedience to laws and ordinances, that there are multiple true Gods, and that human beings can become the same sort of God as God the Father has become if we but follow the same path of obedience, everything would have changed.
At that point Christians would have been obligated to call Joseph Smith to repentance for his false teachings. Historical evidence suggests that this very thing transpired. But Joseph refused to repent. Therefore, by necessity, compelled by the Word of God, Mormonism would have been (and has been) cut off from the tree of Christian fellowship.
Today Christians continue to call believers in Mormonism to repentance for the sin of idolatry. We plead, “Put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD God of Israel” (Joshua 24:23). Put them away, friends, and enter into the joy of the Lord.
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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Sharon,
The reality is that LDS do not desire to be “embraced as part of the Christian church.” I have no desire for this. What I and other LDS want is for non-LDS Christians not to bare false witness about our religion. We would like to speak for ourselves. We are Christians and do not appreciate small-minded religionists telling the world we are not, manipulating perceptions of those who don’t know any better.
You can keep the false doctrine and pagan-based practices inherited from generations of apostasy all you want. I don’t pretend to represent your beliefs to anybody. And we would appreciate the same in return.
Jim,
You believe that the LDS religion has the true Christianity right? (Wasn’t it Heber C. Kimball who said that the LDS religion had the true Masonry?) In any event, we both recognize a difference. Fundamentally – we don’t have the same God, and we don’t have the same Jesus.
What I wonder is why you still cling to the hope that it is “our” Christianity that is wrong, of the two? Your religion started on the Bible, by producing a book that was supposed to be like it. Looking for your “gospel” in either of these books, as seen by The Mormon Gospel article, is a dead-end. Your gospel is not in either of those books.
So… if your religion started on the Book of Mormon, and it doesn’t even contain your gospel, how can you stand and tell everyone that it’s your version of Christianity that is true?
We also know that your branch of Mormonism… the Brigham Young branch… well, it followed BY’s leadership. Which means that what he said was important to your branch. And yet, you deny his sayings or claim that what he said was just thinking-out-loud (you know, the Adam-god thing). Clearly, your branch of Mormonized “Christianity” doesn’t follow your main break-off guy. So again, how can you stand and say that yours is the correct version?
The issues go on and on. I could go on and on with them here, but I won’t, because you’ve been here, and you know what they are. But your version of Mormonism, your version of Christianity, what do they even agree with, historically or scripturally speaking? Nothing. That’s right. Nothing, but what you believe.
I didn’t say any of this to condemn you, but to challenge you to challenge yourself. Why aren’t you challenging yourself with what is written out here, Jim?
Hay OJ,
What are we specifically bearing false witness about when it comes to Mormonism?
1. Joseph Smith used a seer stone, a stone he also had used to find bury treasure, in writing the BoM. Is that right or wrong?
2. Joseph Smith “married” at least 33 women, one of which was a girl about 14 years of age and others who already were married to other men. True or False?
3. Mormons believe that there are countless gods in the universe. These gods progressed from once being men. Mormon men think they will also progressed to becoming gods? True or False?
I could produce an endless list of “accurate” facts about Utah style Mormonism. It’s not that difficult. The problem is, Mormons don’t want people to know what they (Mormons) would rather not become generally known.
So speaking of the big whine about Christians bearing false witness about Mormonism, let’s flip that puppy. Do Mormons bear false witness against Christianity? Of course they do. What about the false claim of the great apostasy of the early Church where by all of the Mormonism of the first century was left out of the corrupted Bible? What about the lies told by Mormonism regarding the Council of Nicea, it’s meaning, outcome and historical facts leading up to it. Mormons bear false witness that the doctrine of the Trinity was manufactured at the Council of Nicea when historically we know the doctrine was written about early on by the Church fathers. What about the Mormon false claim that Christians believe that receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior gives them license to sin as much as they wish.
I’m sure other Christian posters can add more. Mormons like to pass themselves off as Christians for PR purposes while at the same time attacking Christianity. Mormons would certainly be subject to Church discipline based on the heretical teachings, beliefs and practices.
Well I guess it’s time to post my list again of what orthodox Christianity holds to as fundamental doctrine. The Salt Lake City Mormon church has beliefs about most of these that would lead to their expulsion from the Christian Body.
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity, One God, Three persons.
3. The Deity of Christ. Jesus is God.
4. The virgin birth of Jesus.
5. Christ died for us. The blood atonement.
6. Jesus’ resurrection.
7. Saved by grace a part from works.
8. Jesus second coming.
9. The judgment of God.
Mormonism originated with Joseph Smith who was a creative religious entrepreneur. He started out somewhat orthodox and wandered way off the trail. There was a point at which he would not have been given the boot. At first, he would have been seen as odd and somewhat of a kook, but could have remained in the Christian church. But when be changed his mind on who God is and let his sexual lusts rule his life, he would have been gone and rightly so.
The two major “assumptions” i see without evidence in this thread are as follows:
1. That LDS church is heretical
2. That the “Larger” Christian church is not heretical.
I have seen more evidence on this board to contradict these two assumptions than i have seen in their support.
As for a “seer stone”, i suppose that is what many might say about talking burning foliage at some time in history.
I surely am surprised at how vigorously the Ev comes to defend and perpetuate the Nicene Creed.
Especially when they try to defend the Trinity…with assumptions that contradict each other until their poor rationale falls upon the floor. For example, the notion that the Son was not after the Father and prove of such must be seen by the Son’s presence in the scripture “in the begining”…but yet at the same time emphatically claiming that God has no begining 🙂
You see, the Ev has to rely on parlor tricks, scientific reasoning ,and other such nonsense because a rational and intuitive discernment of the scriptures just does not support the gradual erosion of the “larger” church which history documents all to well.
…or you could just “assume” otherwise.
O.J.,
Just curious. You don’t what to be embraced
as part of the Christian Church, yet you said
” we are Christian “. If you claim to be a
christian, are’nt you then a part of the
Christian Church?
This is an excellent post. We will get the Mormon arguments that have already been presented. Such arguments will appeal to faulty reasoning and premises. There will be attempts to bully their views without any reference to biblical truth. They will refer to us as creedal Christians and make an appeal to what they perceive to be abhorrent traditions–while they ignore the heretical traditions of Mormonism. Throughout Christian history, creeds were established to fight against heresies. This was the purpose of the councils, of which our Mormon posters seem to be ignorant. The letters in the NT are more often than not addressing heresies. We will see Mormons eisegete the biblical text without any understanding of the principles of biblical interpretation. What else should we expect from adherents to a man-made religion that is steeped in synchretism and built on the faulty premise of becoming gods? The gospel of Mormonism is about the spotlight being focused on each individual Mormon as opposed to being focused on Jesus Christ, which is why works-righteousness and worship of the Law are at the top of their religion.
Sharon presents a sound argument for the rejection of Mormonism as part of the Christian family.
Peace…
Mike R,
We define the church and christianity differently. Evangelicals define Christianity and the church as equivalent. We do not. EVs have a definition for “the church” that is very fitting when you consider their definition of God- mystical and impossible to define. (Here come the posts countering this claim- but it is the truth).
We believe Christ formed a church- an actual definable entitiy with boundaries and authority and leaders. (How else could one be removed from the church for apostasy; and who decides to do the removing?).
To us, Christianity includes all those who believe Christ is the Savior of the world and the only means of salvation. We recognize that there are lots of folks outside our church who are Christians, but do not belong to Christ’s actual church.
So it makes sense for me to say that I have no desire whatsoever to belong to that group of Christians that are outside Christ’s church. But I am absolutely a Christian, and resent people claiming otherwise. I couldn’t care less for the lists and Pharisee-like criteria that falcon and others post.
sub,
*a magic seer stone used for scrying and conjuring and the burning bush are the same?
*I offered to have Andy and I do an off-blog study with you on the nature of God and the doctrine of the Trinity but you failed to take us up on the offer. I guess it’s much easier to repeat confused Mormon talking points than come to any understanding of the nature of God. I keep hoping that someday you’ll squeeze out of the Mormon box and do some real scholarship.
*”rational, intuitive, discernment of the scriptures” from a Mormon? I almost fell off my chair laughing.
As to how the SLC Mormon church handles it own “heretics”; Lyndon Lamborn showed-up at church one Sunday because he heard the Bishop was going to announce his (Lyndon’s) excommunication from the pulpit. I guess on the advice of legal counsel the Bishop thought better of it and didn’t do as he originally intended.
Who are the heretics in Mormonism? I have an interesting chart here regarding the doctrines of the Temple Lot, the Community of Christ and the Utah Mormons. The Temple Lot folks got really hot when Joseph Smith decided to change the original Book of Commandments. Seems Joe went heretic on his own religious invention.
About a month ago I went to the local mosque. I talked to the Imam there. I told him that in my opinion the thing that gives Islam a bad name and confuses people the most are heretical Muslim groups; I mentioned The Nation of Islam. His response was so telling – that is not Islam.
I am sure many have already made the connection. There is a particular American born group that has Christ in its name, its people (currently) claim to be Christians, yet it is “not Christian”. Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be not just be a church, but the church. It, however, is not Christian just as The Nation of Islam is “not Islam”. And if you think Christians treat their heretics badly, just see how Muslims treat their heretics.
The Nation of Islam is an American-born, heretical organization in regards to Islam just as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an American-born heretical organization in regards to Christianity. World religions defend their borders; there is nothing wrong with this in fact it is quite natural and normal.
Consider the words of Craig Blomberg in The New Mormon Challenge. BTW, this book was edited by Francis Beckwith, Carl Mosser, Paul Owen (notice Mosser & Owen). On pg. 324 & 325 he writes:
“Suppose suddenly a group of Caucasian Swedes announced that God had given them a hew work of scripture that contained many of the teachings of the Qu’ran in it.
A contemporary prophet had translated it into Swedish from ancient tablets purportedly written in an otherwise unknown language called reformed Persian, but those tablets are unavailable for anyone to examine. Despite Muslim convictions about the inerrancy of the Qu’ran, this new religious movement claims that Islamic scripture is corrupt, missing many fundamental doctrines that the prophet Mohammed promulgated, including an account of Sweden being settled by middle-eastern Arabs long before the Vikings. What is more, the cardinal tenets of Islam – the monotheism of Allah and Mohammed as the prophet who brought final, definitive revelation from God – have been disproved; in fact, the Qu’ran’s original views more resembled the polytheism Muslims believe Mohammed rejected than the monotheism centrally proclaimed throughout their history.
While Mohammad himself was a great spokesman for Allah, there is a Swedish prophet continuing to receive revelation from God today who can supersede anything in the Qu’ran that he wished. Meanwhile, the standard summary of Islamic religion is to be rejected as “abominable’, and most of Islam’s holy men are viewed as corrupt.
The analogy could, of course, be extended . But could we seriously expect any faithful Muslim today to simultaneously reject this new sect’s claims to have restored original Islam and yet accept it as a legitimate expression of the Muslim faith?”
Yeah, Mormons are Christians too 🙂
We see that the Mormons are making biblical references to authority without exegeting what the text actually says. This is on par with how they operate. Christ surely did build a Church, but it wasn’t on the rock of revelation or on a human being named Peter–Jesus Christ built His Church on Himself: He is THE Rock!
I’m glad guys like OJ don’t want to be called Christian in the biblical sense. But, we have to understand that Christian in the Mormon sense is built on a foundation of JS, who is undoubtedly a heretic.
I understand that Mormons will resent not being considered Christians. I used to resent it as well. It’s just that I’m able to admit that I wasn’t a Christian in light of biblical truth. I believed in a Jesus that only got me so far, then I had to do the rest. I believed in a Jesus that actually lied when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, because the apostasy that Mormonism claims to have had happened is dependent on the premise that the very Church Jesus organized did not last past His death. I now believe in a Jesus who has all power and authority to save me on His merits–He doesn’t need my help to get me into the presence of God.
So, “Who do you say that I am?” The Mormon response is incongruent with the biblical text.
Peace
David W
interesting story about your visit to the mosque. Unfortunately, it just does not provide such a solid case for your position.
I too find it a great analogy for modern Christianity. For you see, the many heretical sects outnumber the one true “church” in Christianity as well. The have propogated much like the ‘lost’ children of Islam. So here we see the singular Mormon church represented by the CoJCoLDS…surrounded by so many culturally diluted, government sponsored, and socially eroded…none of which are ‘Christian’.
Yes, the connections is clear….Mormons are Christian…not Christians, because for the purposes of this discussion we are singular and to assume are ‘resentful’ is just plain ridiculous.
jackg
“He doesn’t need my help to get me into the presence of God.”
you are right about that! But you sure need to help yourself get there. 🙂
Sharon,
We have got to be consistent. If we are going to call Mormons heretics, and they are, we have got to call someone else a heretic. Today is Martin Luther King Day and the man was most definitely a heretic. He denied the Divine Sonship of Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and the Bodily Resurrection.
Mormonism is not Christian on its face. However, there is a group that is even more dangerous. According to Walter Martin, liberal Christianity, not Mormonism, is the most dangerous cult (at least it was in the 80’s). They have the whitest fleece but inwardly are “λύκοι”.
Dr. King should have been rebuked for heresy and adultery. In fact, several of the ministers in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference were sleeping around. No one man is above rebuke – not Joseph Smith, not Dr. King, not any pastor, no one. Some Mormons may think that we single them out (like Joseph Smith should get away with sleeping with married women); consider that even a bishop of Rome – Pope Honorius – was excommunicated and anathematized (along with Bishop Sergius) by the 6th, 7th, and 8th ecumenical councils as well as pope Leo II. Granted, the excommunication/anathematization was posthumous but better late then never. Earlier, Origen and Pelagius (both religious men who regarded themselves as Christians) were excommunicated. A healthy church is one that purges from time to time.
O.J.
I had to read over your reply a few times in
order to see your reasoning.
Here’s what I gathered:
Anyone who believes in Christ is a christian but
they are outside of Christ’s actual Church.Only
Mormons are therefore in Christ’s actual Church
and therefore since Christ’s actual church is the
only true Church, then those in His Church,the
Mormons, are the only true christians.All those
who are outside of the true Church, are in effect,
in another church.This other church would’nt be
that of the devil would it?
Sub,
Awe, but now we have the same dialectic! You and I are not “Christians too”. Of course you think you belong to the church of the Lamb (along with the other 400 or so Mormon denominations) and I belong to the church of the Devil.
I applaud your honesty in this post. I just wish that Joseph Smith was as honest as you are now.
So we’re back to the good old “Who’s a Christian and who’s not?” question again. How about the question – Who gets to define the word ‘Christian’? The LDS critics like those on this site? The Traditional Christian community? The non-Christian community? The general consensus of the world community? The LDS church?
If we say the LDS critics, then of course the LDS church is not Christian.
If we go to the general Traditional Christian community we would get a mixed answer, from my experience. All of my friends from a Catholic, Anglican, Protestant and Pentecostal background have told me that I am Christian, even when I have explained that I believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus and The Holy Ghost are 3 separate individuals, and that we will be held accountable for our actions on the Day of Judgment, which is when Jesus’ atonement takes action, rather than saved right now despite works. Even the old man I bumped into on the street proclaiming Jesus (he was born again) acknowledged I am Christian, just had another Jesus. The only ones I have heard say that the LDS church is not Christian are those on this site and other LDS critic sites.
The non-Christian community class the LDS church as Christian, just an offshoot, sect or cult.
Going on my experience with my friends and the non-Christian community, the general consensus is that the LDS church is Christian.
Finally the LDS church says it’s Christian.
The main criterion for claiming Christian is a belief in Jesus Christ as the Saviour and Redeemer and The Son of God. This excludes Muslims before anyone says that they believe in Jesus – to them He is just another prophet.
It’s like Bill Clinton – When he claimed innocence, would someone who did not believe him but backed his party still be classed as a democrat? If you believed his claim and someone else did not, do you believe in the same person? Or are they different Bill Clintons?
We believe in Jesus Christ, just differently and we acknowledge that.
The apostle Paul was really firm with Timothy in telling him to guard the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was revealed to him and then verified by the other apostles in Jerusalem. Paul said in the first chapter of his letter to Timothy, “…instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines…” Mormonism gets about as strange as it comes. Paul could have been describing Mormon prophets and Mormons when he said, “…they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.” At the end of this section Paul identifies and describes God saying, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.” Amen.
Paul describes the heretics when he says, “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,….” This is Mormonism in a nutshell. Those that have accepted this religion have paid attention to exactly what Paul says they would. When someone’s conscious is seared, it is very difficult to see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In Second Timothy Paul writes to his son in the faith that he should, “Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.”
As Christians we do guard the standard of sound words. Mormons have no “sound words” when it comes to knowing God and the Gospel of His Son Jesus Christ.
Hey OJ, Here are some issues I see with what you said as your first post.
Many Former LDS leaders stated that Christian beliefs were hatched in hell and Christians are poor, miserable blind etc. If that stuff is true then how can you say your a christian? If you need the exact quotes let me know I will post them.
Then you said
Here are some more problems, Who said that are Church was wrong and an abomination? JS said that about us, How come it is wrong of us to defend ourselves against what your leader said about us?
How come we as Christians see LDS knocking on our doors then flat out lying to us, and we have given examples of this, Case in Point, I called an LDS member out on this board not that long ago for out right lying about me.
I said once before and will say it again, if you feel LDS members do not lie to us when they knock on our doors, please come to my house, I will contact LDS members and show you how they do it. I’m not saying the Christians have never lied or never will, I am honest enough to say it happens.
But LDS are famous for lying to me and dodging questions. You feel we are attacking you guys, well then be more open and honest and start answering questions. Rick b
Ralph said: “It’s like Bill Clinton – When he claimed innocence, would someone who did not believe him but backed his party still be classed as a democrat? If you believed his claim and someone else did not, do you believe in the same person? Or are they different Bill Clintons?
We believe in Jesus Christ, just differently and we acknowledge that.”
So… are you saying that you (Mormons) believe that Jesus is a real figure, but you do not believe what He said about Himself? Because honestly, I see this as a truth about Mormonism.
The Bible defines who a Christian is. Critical is the answer to Jesus’ own question, which I already referred to. It’s about the authority of the Bible. It will always boil down to that. I had to come to the realization that the Bible is indeed the inerrant Word of God; it’s the same path anyone has to trod before they can learn the truth regarding Jesus Christ. I used to believe the JS lies, but no longer. Praise be to God.
Sub,
The idea of helping oneself is not biblical. Once a person realizes that all they could ever merit for themselves is death, then they can understand the beauty of God’s grace. Even the ability to believe is generated by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, go ahead and argue for works-righteousness, and I will argue for the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection as the sole source of salvation.
Peace…
Jackg,
In response to Jesus’ question I concur totally with Peter (Matt 16:15-16) – He is The Son of The Living God. Is that all I need to do to claim being Christian? Good, then I am Christian. But you claim that He is the Son of the Holy Ghost – Hmmm !
Does the Bible define who is Christian? The word is only used 3 times in the KJV. Two of those times, especially where it mentions the first use of the word, the word is used and made-up by the non-believers to classify these people that believed in the person Jesus who claimed to be a Christ. So it was the non-Christian people who gave the word life and meaning, should we use their definition? That would then place the LDS church under the banner of Christian. The third use of the word was a reference to the people who died in the name of Christ after persecution from the non-believers. This use has no definition surrounding it at all, except that anyone who claimed to be Christian were persecuted and in some instances killed for that title. I don’t think someone would claim to be Christian in those circumstances unless they were definite about their faith and position within that faith. Those who were killed would most likely not have been questioned first about whether they believed in the Trinity or salvation by faith despite works. In the view of the persecutors anyone who said they believed that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God and their Saviour and Redeemer would have faced the mob. Is this the definition you are looking for in the Bible?
I know a year ago or more Sharon tried to claim a definition from the Bible for ‘Christian’, but really, the only 3 places it is used only gives the meaning as one who believes in Jesus as their Saviour and Redeemer and the Son of God. So do you want to go by this Biblical definition?
[The blog post Ralph references can be found here.]
As a Christian, I always wondered why God states, “thou shout not”, is keeping the commandments not a directive to do something or is it
only a guide after one has stated the prayer of Faith, and is saved by His Grace? Does Grace supersede ones works to obey or be obedient?
“Paul said in the first chapter of his letter to Timothy, “…instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines
…actually strange is how the Ev insists on perpetuating the notions that God is schizophrenic, that Christianity is Greek in origin, and that Jesus is both the Son and the Father.
or this latest strange out-of-context emission we see
from jackg
The idea of helping oneself is not biblical
to be fair, this statement is true in theory, but the Ev application illustrates something entirely different. You see the Ev is like that guy who needs help fixing his car, so he asks you to “help” him fix his car…..then he stands there and watches you fix his car…so, in fact you did not “help” him fix anything, you actually fixed the car for him while he remained inactive. It would be like praying to God because you need a new job, but then you don’t submit resume’ anywhere and just assume God will provide a job for you…..how do you think that works out for you?
Easy-believism runs rampant through the Ev population. The true meaning of ‘thanksgiving’ is often lost among them and their intellectual endeavors.
Salvation merely gives us ‘permission’ to enter God’s presence, our work prepares us to be in that presence, and our “thanksgiving” is what gets us there.
Psalms 100:4
1 John 4:16
James 4:8
Janet
good question you pose, i will certainly be surprised to read a direct answer from the Ev here.
The basic doctrines of orthodox Christianity have been well defined. If someone goes outside the boundaries of the established standard they are a heretic. Mormons tell us that their “prophets” get messages from the Mormon god. So when the Mormon oracle speaks, he is revealing the mind of the Mormon god. Mormons can’t get away with saying that the Mormon prophet, when speaking forth on matters of doctrine, is right sometimes and wrong (misspeaks, gives opinions) at other times. That’s way too convenient even for Mormons; to give that much of a fudge factor to their prophet who hears from the Mormon god.
I suppose there are times when the concept of “progressive revelation” might work as in the case of blacks and the priesthood, but in most cases in just doesn’t wash. For example, the incarnation of Jesus isn’t something the Mormon god is going to change his mind on and neither is the doctrine of Adam-god. It’s either right or wrong. I would also place the doctrine of polygamy in the same category since, according to the grand pooh bah Smith, it’s necessary for reaching godhood/highest level of the Mormon Celestial kingdom.
So Mormons are heretics as far as any claims to wanting to be included in the family of Christian denominations. The basic point is that Mormonism has no claims on Christianity.
You know sub
Every time you post you reveal more of your ignorance. Why don’t you spend some real quality time in study. “Christianity is Greek in origin”? Please expound on this claim. I’d really be interested in your secret information.
The offer still stands to do an in-depth study on the doctrine of the Trinity. I suppose repeating that the word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible is about as deep as any Mormon dare go.
Please provide us with information regarding the Mormon claim that Mormonism is original Christianity. That would include giving us information that the apostles practiced polygamy, that they taught that men would progress to be gods, that they engaged in secret Masonic ceremonies in Christian temples and on and on. It’s a lot easier to repeat Mormon talking points without providing any documentation.
Get yourself out of the Mormon box sub. The air is much more clear and invigorating out here.
Some Evangelicals are still preaching that it’s necessary almost without exception that one has to practice Polygamy to reach the highest degree of Heaven, Celestial Glory. This must be basic 101 teaching of how to misrepresent LDS Doctrine without any source or references. Amazing how our Doctrine seems to change daily.
Janet,
What did Joseph Smith teach regarding the necessity of practicing polygamy to reach the highest level of glory in the Celestial kingdom? That’s what is being stated here. If that’s what the Mormon god told Smith, then the Mormon god isn’t going to change his mind on something as critical as that, right?
Regarding your other question, I would suggest you read and study the Bible and what it says on the relationship between law and faith/grace. Just a couple of verses; Romans 3:20 states “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” That verse states the purpose of the Law. And further in Romans 3:21-24 it states, “But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”
Janet,
I can understand your confusion because Mormonism is not Christianity. It’s a different religion that borrows some Christian terms and attaches different meanings to them. In Mormonism there is a different God, a different Jesus, a different Spirit and a different plan of salvation. Mormonism is based on the musings of a false prophet Joseph Smith. Jesus warned that false prophets would come and if possible lead away even the elect. The spiritual delusion hanging over Mormonism has caused the followers of Smith to be seduced into following a false Gospel that is a useful counterfeit for Satan. We have many exMormons who post here, who testify daily to their new life in Christ after years of entrapment in the maze of Mormonism. It would do you well to listen to their testimonies of the living God who released them from their bondage to the false gospel of Mormonism.
Sub,
“actually strange is how the Ev insists on perpetuating the notions that God is schizophrenic, that Christianity is Greek in origin, and that Jesus is both the Son and the Father.”
And this is not slander and misrepresentation?
The basic doctrines of orthodox Christianity have been well defined. If someone goes outside the boundaries of the established standard they are a heretic”
a bold statement, unfortunately no single “Christian” organization subscribes to the same basic doctrines.
The Ev seemingly unaware of their own John Nelson Darby, or Ecumenism, or the Lambeth Conferences, or of the basic meaning of Dispensationalism.
David W
My first claim
many Ev would state, that God is the Father and the Son, and that one was not before the other…thus rendering, at least, a dual personality and/or disordered thinking unto God…ergo ‘schizophrenia’.
My second claim
The Nicene Creed and most of what Constantine organized to maintain the ‘monarchy’ is often used as support for Ev criticism and claims. And the Ev relies purely on Greek entymolgy with little, though seldom, appreciation for Hebrew text or context or cultural translation….ergo Greek.
My third claim
related to first claim and a little to second. Best illustrated by falcon’s self-imploding argument about the Trinity where he would claim that God had a “begining” – “in the begining” to support his assertion that the Son had “always” been. The support of that ill-fated logic has been supported by many Ev posters in one manner or another.
So, no, it is not anymore “misrepresentative” than the mildest of falcon’s posts….and its far from slander…slander is a malicious and false staement, like the claims that are posted that sexual deviance was the motive for LDS polygamy…a supposition that has no evidence and is intended to damage JS’s reputation….that is slander….why do you ask, are you proclaiming your disdain and condemnation for slanderous posts?
falcon
you may be confused, because when you write about “Christian” you obvioulsy subscribe to the rather-off-the-mark pop definition of Christian – one derived from Apostasy.
Maybe “Christian” should be defined? i spell it L-D-S 🙂
Falcon, you wrote,
Perhaps what you are referring to is the authoritative teachings of Brigham Young? Or maybe you meant Joseph Smith’s teaching as found in D&C 132? See here for more info and references.
Ralph,
Who do you say Jesus is? Answer that question, and then we will know if whether or not you truly believe in the biblical Jesus or the Jesus JS made up, which is a counterfeit Jesus. If your answer is correct, then you will see that you can’t also claim to be a Mormon. We all have to go through this process, Ralph. I know it’s difficult to acknowledge that the belief system in which you have operated all your life is built on heresies uttered from the mouth of a false prophet, someone you were taught to revere. I know the position you’re in, Ralph. But, ultimately, the time will come for you to humble yourself and admit that the testimony you share is not built on biblical revelation. We will all come to that “moment of truth,” Ralph. I pray that when it presents itself to you, that you will be humble and courageous enough to walk out of the darkness of Mormonism and into the Light of Jesus Christ.
sub,
Easy-believism…really? It’s clear you don’t really understand the cost of discipleship. The problem is that you are still operating from a backward theology. Salvation becomes reality when one confesses that Jesus is the Christ. Repentance will naturally be the fruit of that confession. The process of sanctification requires diligence and discipleship, and there will be a change in thinking and behaviors. This is the natural outflow of a saved person. In other words, you don’t have to clean up your life in order to be saved. Cleaning up one’s life is the natural process of the saved soul. You want to make it “hard,” so that way you can say that you are some special person who can succeed in the “hard” and “demanding” road of salvation. It’s all about you, sub, and that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for your charge of “strange out-of-context emission,” then perhaps I am in line to be your next “prophet.” You just identified the teachings of JS and your subsequent leaders rather aptly.
Peace…
Ralph said
Ralph, we have been over this before with you. You cannot simply say I believe in Jesus and be saved if the Jesus you claim to believe in is not the Jesus/God of the Bible.
I believe it was you, but it could have been another LDS member, I recall a LDS member admitting LDS and Christians do not hold to the same gospel, I know many LDS do not like to admit that, but that was why I do my “What if” Question. What if I dress as a mormon, call my self a latter day saint and go door to door with the gospel of grace and no works and the trinity.
You guys would attack me for that, yet you jump on us for correcting you guys for saying your just like us but teaching a different gospel.
Remember, God said I place my word above my name, He takes His word seriously, and if you then say the Bible is wrong or is full of problems then you are calling God a liar. If you go onto say, well the God in the Bible is not how I believe Him to be, but in fact I believe this instead, Again your calling God a liar.
I said this before and I will say it again, go back and read the book of Job, Job’s friends were way off base on what they thought and believe about God and who he was, What did God do, He rebuked them all and only spared them if Job prayed for them and offered up a sacrifice.
Their are other cases, like with Moses, he was denied going into the promised land because he misrepresented who God was.
You cannot teach a false gospel and call it truth and fact and expect God to allow that to slide. God call that a false witness, and a false Gospel.
I’m a professional baker and work in the culinary arts. Years ago restaurants were taking skate wing and a round cutter and cutting out round circles and calling them scallops because it was cheaper. Cont.
Cont,
Do you want the real scallop or do you want a counterfeit but then not know because your being lied to? A lie is a lie is a lie, you simple cannot change Gods word and call it truth. Rick b
“Salvation becomes reality when one confesses that Jesus is the Christ. Repentance will naturally be the fruit of that confession.”
…so it is be saved and repent? all this time i thought it was repent and then be saved…wait a second, does baptism come last?, cause i did that already.
“I know it’s difficult to acknowledge that the belief system in which you have operated all your life is built on heresies..”
i thought the trinty debate was in a different thread. Though, it is encouraging to see an Ev finally admit its ‘hard’ for themself. But, don’t forget, repenting is supposed to come later.
Sharon
not to nibble on the “distraction”…but,
a peculiar take on D&C 132:52 and an even more peculiar take is offered up for the “polygamy” described in D&C 132:58-66. I really should take more time to see how far the MRM main site takes things.
D&C 132 overwhelmingly deals with celestial/eternal marriage regardless of it being mono or poly. As i read, Polygamy is not put forth as a “requirement”.
sub,
Go back to the fifth post on this thread and there are listed the doctrines on which basic orthodox Christian denominations are judged by regarding being “Christian”. I have posted this list countless times and I guess I have to do it about every tenth post.
So what’s the deal with Darby and dispensational theology etc. I’m really missing your point. You obviously think you have something really hot here but I’m not seeing it. If you’re really interested in the different points of view regarding certain aspects of Christian theology, I would suggest that you purchase “Charts of Christian Theology and Doctrine” by H. Wayne House. The description of the book is:
“Charts of Christian Theology and Doctrine provides students of theology with precise and condensed summaries of the concepts and arguments from the fields of theology and doctrine. It does this by introducing readers to important terms and positions and their meanings.”
You could really use this. It would broaden your horizons and get you some accurate information. The problem is, it will raise havoc to your Mormonism. Once Mormons broaden their limited perspectives, they don’t remain Mormons very long. So on second thought, you probably don’t want to take yourself up another level. It’s a lot more emotionally safe to stay in the Mormon box.
Sub, you bring up the point of, Baptism.
Many LDS teach we must be baptised to be saved. Here is another change to the gospel from you guys. If baptism really is required for being saved, then why does the bible tell us “Jesus Did not baptize”?
Call me crazy, but if it is REQUIRED TO BE SAVED, I would think Jesus would have clearly made it known and did it.
Then Paul said he did not come to baptize and he even forgot how many he baptized. Again, call me crazy, but if I must be baptised to be saved it sure would be nice to have God tell me this. Rick b
sub,
Sorry if I confused you. I know you’re stuck on works being a prerequisite to salvation. To repent is to “turn away” from the lifestyle that is not congruent with the lifestyle of a follower of Jesus. It’s agreeing with God that the lifestyle one has been leading is contradictory to the life God has chosen for that person to live. This can only happen after our relationship with God is changed from that of creature to that of child of God. It’s a new relationship that is ignited when we are justified by our faith. I cannot change behavior until I truly have faith in Jesus Christ and am empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. Until that paradigm shifts occurs for you, you will always struggle with your works-righteousness dilemma. As for baptism, it is not efficacious. It is a sign/symbol of accepting Jesus and of sharing in His death and resurrection. In other words, you don’t need to be baptized to be saved. Any inference to the contrary merely reveals faulty exegesis of the biblical text.
Peace…
Sub, Rick B,
Baptism in whose name? If you are baptized in the name of a false god (the Mormon god), this baptism is in no way valid. Baptism in the name of the Triune God is important – I think sometimes Christians devalue it; however, if one goes by Scripture it is clearly one of the ways we are to relate to God. Baptism is a sign and a seal of salvation, wherein the one being baptized identifies with Christ and is buried with Him in his death – covered by His blood for the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is a means of grace, whereby we apply and depend on Jesus death and resurrection for redemption. It is not magical, but is a gift which God has given to us – just as Christ instituted the Lord’s Supper or Communion for us to have fellowship with Him. Baptism is not essential for salvation, but neither would I divorce it from salvation. It is not a work we do, but something God uses to create faith in our hearts and draw us to Christ crucified for our forgiveness. If someone is doing being baptized in the name of a false god or doing it as a work of righteousness for the dead it is not true baptism.
I think Jesus did not baptize because it would have made a special class of believers “I was baptized by Jesus!” Believe me, with our sinful hearts, people would have been proudly prancing around about it.
“..however, if one goes by Scripture it is clearly one of the ways we are to relate to God..”
yet another illusion perpetuated by the Ev…the “Triune” is not Biblical Doctrine nor is it of an Apostolic witness…3 in 1 or 1 in 3 is not scripture based…period.
…but, please, feel free to prove otherwise and you will most likely prove something you did not set out to prove….but don’t let that “dissuade” you – prove the Trinity “by going by Scripture” as you emphatically claim above.
“Baptism is not essential for salvation”
🙂 wow! you are bold.
1 Peter 3:21
Acts 2:38
Romans 6:3
and most important —-> Matthew 3:15
Jesus is showing humiliation is he not? is He not putting on a display of perfect obedience? on fulfilling all righteousness? showing that compliance to all of God’s laws is necessary to have the Heavens open to Him? is it not here that we witness all of this?
It is through “Baptism” that readiness for compliance to God’s will is confirmed.
So, as the Ev promotes here, the outer inevitably confirms the inner, inseperable and undeniably.
So, if i may flirt with double entendre, you will be Baptized because otherwise you have not been “Baptized”.
(and i wuold wager that you are far off base on why Jesus did not baptize, but a good guess.)
if nothing else, its posts like this that prove this site is entertaining.
jackg
i think you have “repent” and “forsake” confused.
Sub,
From your post it does seem like you have a misunderstanding of the Trinity. Also, the Trinity is not just an “Ev” thing.
Also, I think you know little of church history and the original languages. I can assure you that there are many “Evs” that do know Hebrew and Aramaic and who do not rely “purely on Greek entymolgy”. Furthermore, I am not so sure you realize that a good portion of scripture was written in Greek. At least part of Christianity “is Greek” as that is what the NT was written in. I do not know why the original languages matter to you who thinks Biblical authors (at least Luke and Matthew) got portions of their books wrong.
So, if it ok for you and falcon to misrepresent each other (I am not saying you do but that seems to be the argument of your post – moral equivalency) then can we drop the “lies, misrepresentation, distortions, etc.” canard?
FYI, I do think Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, but that is another topic for another day. Suffice it to state that the idea of contending for the faith and the purity of the church should in itself not be a sore spot for Mormons. Consider, if we are right and you are wrong about the things of God then should we not purge Joseph Smith and his “church”?
Mobaby,
Dont misunderstand me. I never said dont bother getting baptized, I believe we should do it, I’m just saying that if you do not you will still be saved.
Here are some problems I see with the LDS and baptism. Lets say I have LDS knock on my door and I believe them right off the bat, am I saved for believing them? No I am not. Now they tell me I need to be or must be baptized, So I say ok, when and where, I am on my way their and get killed, murdered, simply die of natural causes, or whatever am I no longer saved?
Well to many honest LDS I would get a lesser heaven if I was even saved. Let now do that with Christians, if I believe and confess Jesus I am saved just as the Bible says. What If I excepted Christ in Hati then the earthquake hit and I died, I was not baptised so am I saved? Yes I am.
Thats the problem with works based salvation, Plus go back and read what Paul said to the Jailer, The jailer said, What must I do to be saved. Paul said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus, Paul never said, Believe and be baptized. Only faith in Jesus saves us. Simple put it is Jesus period. Not Jesus And……..
Rick b
RickB,
I never said anything about all one needs to do is believe in Jesus and they are saved with a license to do what ever. I was not even talking about being saved in the first place. I was responding to Jackg’s comment that to be a ‘Christian’ one needs to get the answer correct to the question ‘Who do you say that I am?’ I answered the question in agreement with Peter – Jesus is The Christ, The Son of The living God. That is what I believe, that is what the LDS church teaches. If that is all that is necessary to be put under the unbrella of the term ‘Christian’, then that means the LDS church is Christian.
Jackg,
I did answer your question but here it is again – I agree with Peter, Jesus is The Christ and The Son of The living God. This answer totally complies with the LDS teachings so I don’t understand what you are trying to say when you mentioned that the answer is incongruent with LDS teachings.
In actuality, it is incongruent with your teachings as I pointed out above. You believe that Jesus was sired by the Holy Ghost so He is not the Son of the living God, but the Son of the Holy Ghost, according to your doctrine. Or at least that is why we had the discussion a few weeks ago about how Jesus was conceived.
Mobaby,
The only reference to baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is in Matthew. The rest of the NT says baptism in Jesus’ name only. So who do we believe – Matthew or the others in the NT? Because of this there are some theologians that believe that the Matthew verse is an add-in to try and ‘prove’ a Trinity. But the last part is neither here nor there, just an interesting tid-bit that people are theorising on but can’t prove without the originals. Does this count as a contradiction in core doctrine in the Bible? 🙂
Ralph, I understood you, my point to you was, Just because you say, I believe in Jesus, or Jesus is God or Jesus is the son of God means nothing when you look deeper into who do you believe that Jesus is.
The Jesus I confess and the jesus the lds confess have the same name/title on the surface, but when we dig deeper they are not even close to the same. Rick b
Let’s put to rest some of the lies and misconceptions mentioned on this thread, by the ‘so called’ “LDS Christians” (LOL) & explore what their leaders have said and done in regards to polygamy & verify that “the claims that are posted” concerning “sexual deviance [as a] motive for LDS polygamy” really are true & “one has to practice Polygamy to reach the highest degree of Heaven”…[You can have one wife in Mormonism & reach the Celestial Kingdom, but you will be one of the ‘lower gods’, & those that HAVE MORE WIVES WILL BE ABOVE YOU IN STATION & POWER]. Janet, if you would READ your own History, others would not have to PROVE IT TO YOU.
If Celestial Marriage is all about having ONE wife, then why all the opposition to it from WITHIN the church? Why did Smith, Young, Taylor & a host of others FLAT OUT LIE that polygamy was even being practiced in the Church until 1852? Why was it even practiced, when the High Council in Nauvoo voted it down? Why did Smith then ex-communicate and slander all those who opposed it. This is the TRUE history of what went on, and I will show it to you. genius & the other Mormon posters are being naïve, deceived, or CHOOSE to believe & propagate a lie, but the HISTORY is there for all to see. Mormon claims about progressive revelation are LIES, the PROPHET IS A DICTATOR just as SMITH WAS & this has always been and always will be how the Mormon Church Operates. Lets take a stroll down memory lane, shall we, and PROVE how Mormons BELIEVE THE LIE, and WHY they need to be PURGED from TRUE CHRISTIANITY:
“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (- 12AOF, written by Smith.)
“Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; & one woman but one husband; except that in the event of death when either is at liberty to marry again.” ( – HotC:2:247 – 1835, D&C Section 101:4) – This is a very important scripture & was used over and over to deny polygamy & that they were committing fornication to practice it.
“Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one? No, not at the same time.” ( – Smith, May 1, 1838 in Teachings:119) –Why were people asking???
So here we have it established that:
1. Mormons believe in obeying, honoring & sustaining the law.
2. Mormons believe that one man should have one wife. (as quoted from their own scriptures)
3. Smith confirms (no polygamy) in 1838 (after having affairs & plural wives)
4. Remember, it takes a Church Vote to incorporate any ‘supposed new revelation’ & make it binding on Members ….
But what was really going on???
A Woman named Fanny Alger (Smith’s first plural wife (that we know of), stayed at Smith’s home as a housemaid in Kirtland during early 1833. She was 16. Benjamin Johnson called her “a varry nice & Comly young woman,” & Fanny lived with the Smith family from 1833 to 1836.
Martin Harris related that Smith’s ‘servant girl’ had been the subject of his [Smith’s] “improper proposals to her, which created quite a talk amongst the people.”. Mormon Fanny Brewer said this: “much excitement against the Prophet…[involving] an unlawful intercourse between himself & a young orphan girl residing in his family and under his protection.”
William McLellin (one of Smith’s early apostles, in a letter to one of Smith’s sons,) said that when Emma discovered Smith and Fanny in the Barn, the ensuing confrontation between Emma and her husband grew so heated that S. Rigdon, F. Williams & O. Cowdery had to mediate.
After Emma related what she had witnessed, Smith, according to McLellin, “confessed humbly, and begged forgiveness. Emma and all forgave him.” Cowdery may have forgiven his cousin Smith, but he did not forget the incident. Three years later in Missouri he would call the Fanny Alger episode “a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.” (bye bye Oliver)
Note that Harris & Cowdery are two of the three witnesses to the Book Of Mormon. This was to be the ‘secret pattern’ for Smith over the next 11 years. Here is what Smith said about “how hard’ it was for him to practice polygamy (notice this happened after the Alger affair). As related by Mary E.R. Lightner, one of Smith’s plural wives who he had sex with when she was married to another man, (non-mormon), & who went to Utah:
[Smith] preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it.[in secret] I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. [Like Adam-God was given to Young???] An angel came to him & the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand & told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him.”
“Well,” said I, “don’t you think it was an angel of the devil that told you these things?” Said he, “No, it was an angel of God. God Almighty showed me the difference between an angel of light & Satan’s angels. The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and ‘42 & said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me. [He had no problem with Fanny Alger] “But,” said he, “they called me a false & fallen prophet [I wonder why?] but I am more in favor with my God this day than I ever was in all my life before. I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie;[unless He tells the Church to practice Monogamy & Smith Polygamy & lie] all that he gives me[WIVES] I shall take with me for I have that authority & that power conferred upon me.” (-1905 Address at BYU)
The ‘sword’ story is verified by multiple Mormon sources. If polygamy is so ‘non-essential’ to the Church, then why this story? Why would Smith have to practice it at all? And I don’t want to hear the garbage about ‘restoring all things’ because if you go down that road, polygamy must be ‘essential’ & you have a real problem with it’s repeal later. This whole story is a redundant conundrum, but we will get to that, yes we will.
In 1838 Smith ‘married’ Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris while she was still married to her first husband & Smith was living with the two. (See Mormon Todd Compton’s book, In Sacred Loneliness). Compton writes that Sarah Pratt reported that “while in Nauvoo Lucinda had admitted a long-standing relationship with Smith”; and that there is an “early Nauvoo temple proxy sealing to Smith….”
From this & the Alger ‘affair’ sprang the questions that Smith was forced to answer about ‘fornication’ & his public declarations about there being ‘no polygamy in the Church’ and flies in the face of this revelation:
“…..neither shall anything be appointed unto ANY of this church CONTRARY to the church covenants. For ALL THINGS must be done IN ORDER, and by common consent in the church…” (D&C 28:12-13.)
That Smith had polygamy on his mind since 1831 is evidenced by this ‘revelation’ he ‘received’ which in part reads:
“[I]t is [God’s] will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome, and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.” (Original in Church Archives – never published in the D&C but verified by Joseph Fielding Smith in a letter to J. Baily in 1935:
“The exact date I cannot give you when this principle of plural marriage was first revealed to Joseph Smith, but I do know that there was a revelation given in July 1831, in the presence of Oliver Cowdery, W. Phelps & others in Missouri, in which the Lord made it known