Purging the Church

The Bible talks about church discipline. With a double emphasis on holding firmly to the truth and living a moral life, the New Testament says the church (the body of true believers) is to call sinners to repentance. If someone is accepted as part of the visible church but refuses to repent of sin, whether it is of a moral nature or a heretical nature, the church is to turn them out of the fellowship.

For example, 1 Corinthians 5 tells of a man in the church who is proudly unrepentant of his blatant immorality. Paul instructs, “Let him who has done this be removed from among you” (1 Corinthians 5:2). Following this pronouncement Paul includes, “Purge the evil person from among you” (1 Corinthians 5:13).

When Paul wrote to Titus, he warned about a person who “stirs up division” within the church with unsound doctrine. Paul says, “…after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned” (Titus 3:10-11).

Jesus spoke about what to do with unrepentant people in the church also. After approaching the person twice with a call to repentance, “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector,” Jesus said (Matthew 18:15-20).

In 2 Corinthians Paul warns the church about people who teach heresy for truth. He calls them “false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). Paul told the Corinthians, “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial?  Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?…’Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord'” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

Why do I bring this up? A friend of mine once said, “Mormons want to be embraced as part of the Christian church, but they wouldn’t be happy with the reality. For if they were part of the visible church, they would be subject to discipline for believing the heretical doctrines the LDS Church teaches.”

What would the result of such church discipline look like on a corporate scale? It would look exactly like what we see today. In obedience to the mandates of Scripture, the greater Christian church would denounce Mormonism and remove it from among us. The Christian church would purge itself of LDS heresy. It would have nothing more to do with Mormonism. We would be obligated to obey the command to be separate from the LDS Church, for what fellowship has light with darkness?

If Joseph Smith and his followers were ever embraced as part of Christianity, if Joseph ever taught his followers the true nature of God as God has revealed Himself in the Bible, when Joseph began to teach that God the Father became a God by obedience to laws and ordinances, that there are multiple true Gods, and that human beings can become the same sort of God as God the Father has become if we but follow the same path of obedience, everything would have changed.

At that point Christians would have been obligated to call Joseph Smith to repentance for his false teachings. Historical evidence suggests that this very thing transpired. But Joseph refused to repent. Therefore, by necessity, compelled by the Word of God, Mormonism would have been (and has been) cut off from the tree of Christian fellowship.

Today Christians continue to call believers in Mormonism to repentance for the sin of idolatry. We plead, “Put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD God of Israel” (Joshua 24:23). Put them away, friends, and enter into the joy of the Lord.


Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.


About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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215 Responses to Purging the Church

  1. jackg says:

    Thanks Grindael. It’s amazing how God is saving Mormons like you and I! Keep up the good work!!

  2. Rick B says:

    Janet, many times us believers have said you LDS really do not want to hear the truth. Here is another example that happened to me.

    It’s going on about 4 years now but me and a friend drove to utah to visit the temple and speak with people. I dont recall exactly what building I was in, but it had a garden roof top. Any way their was a female missionary giving a tour to a group of people, my friend and me were asking question to another Missionary and pointing out what we felt were problems with the LDS gospel.

    A lady in this other group over heard us and stated that it was interesting what I was saying, no sooner did this person speak up then the missionary I was speaking with started to take us away, and the missionary leading the other group bold said, time for us to move on. How very sad.

    Then I was touring another building and brought up the subject of JS killing 2 people and shooting 3 people at the jail, The missionary I was speaking with walked away and came back with a security guard that was the size of Frankenstein’s monster, he was dressed like an FBI agent with the black suit and ear piece to speak with others.

    He flat out told me I am not allowed to ask questions that cause controversy, I told him the question was an honest question and it was in the LDS church history. He flat out told me I need to keep my mouth shut or I will be removed. So please tell me how it seems you guys claim fair and balanced truth with stuff like that. Dont try and tell me it never happens. Rick b

  3. grindael says:


    Lovely story. Can’t help myself, gotta give some more ‘gems’. Where did this attitude of being ‘dictators’ of Religion come from? Smith & Young & their ‘patriarchal order’, (of course). It is Church rule by force & if you don’t comply you are ejected, disfellowshipped (banned). There is no love & understanding there. Here is the grand poobah of all the Mormon Dictators, the “lion of the lord” himself:

    “The man whom God calls to dictate the affairs in the building of his Zion has the right to dictate about everything connected with the building of his Zion, yes even to the ribbons the women wear; and any person who denies it is ignorant.” – Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 298, February 3, 1867

    “President Young is our governor and our dictator. It is for me to walk with him, and for you to walk with those who go before you.” – Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 19, July 16, 1854

    “[Heber C. Kimball] declared to the people that Brigham Young was his God, and their God, and the only God they would ever see if they did not obey him: ‘Joseph Smith was God to the inhabitants of the earth when he was amongst us, and Brigham is God now.’ This strain was caught up and reiterated by many of the elders, from Orson Hyde, the president of the twelve apostles, down to the most ignorant teacher, and to question it openly was to be put under the ban.– T.B.H. Stenhouse, The Rocky Mountain Saints, 1873, 1904 edition, p. 294 Just to verify Stenhouse, ( here is this quote:

    “You call us fools: but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor in the Territory of Deseret.” – Heber C. Kimball, JOD:5:88-89.

  4. grindael says:


    Not sure if you know about this quote or not:

    “If Joseph Smith, Jun., the Prophet, had followed the Spirit of revelation in him he never would have gone to Carthage and never for one moment did he say that he had one particle of light in him after he started back from Montrose to give himself up in Nauvoo.” – A Series of Instructions and Remarks by Brigham Young at a Special Council, Mar. 21, 1858, Brigham Young Papers, Church Archives. Also See: http://webpages.marshall.edu/~brown/suc-pres.html under “24 Jun 1844”

    Gee. A prophet with “no spirit of revelation in him” as observed by another prophet. Then all those (ahem!) BOLD statements can be taken for what they are….Mormon embellishments & lies. (Hey, ask Paul Dunn about this Mormon trait in their leaders & followers – but hey, he was only following his role model smith here.)

    Funny how in his last letter to Emma, he mentions nothing in terms of this. It is only the mormons who were with him that ascribe these statements to him. Gee, I guess if death by shootout verifies the validity of prophethood, then David Koresh should be hailed by all Mormons as a GREAT PROPHET. He even was accused of molesting minors, the same as smith. And why was smith at the Carthage Jail? Put there by traitors and wicked men? Knowing ALL the facts this is the most laughable statement you quoted. He was put there for fooling around with married & single women in arrogance of the law, lying about it, and destroying other people’s property who had the moral fortitude to stand up to him. He died in a shootout, guns blazing, as far from any prophet or apostle or true martyr in the bible as you can get.

  5. Rick B says:

    I stated the facts, where did the mormon, ahem, and Janet go?

    grindael said

    There is no love & understanding there.

    I never see any love from the mormons, here or the ones on the street. They tell us were wrong and tell us we misquote or do not understand what we read, but yet when do they ever try and explain in love what were missing? Rick b

  6. Janet says:

    “being put to death like Jesus died”

    I appreciate the efforts of your research, but what struck me as something I had never heard before was the above, which you still have not sourced or provided a quote.

    It is true about that the rest of what you quoted is standard knowledge, that we teach and preach to all who will listen.

    Thanks again for your efforts, I hope you can produce the rest of what you sated was a bold statement made by JS.


  7. gpark says:


    Please read Acts, chapters 6-8, in their entirety, paying special attention to the death of the martyr, Stephen, in Acts 7:54-60 and to the prophesy about Jesus’ death from the OT book of Isaiah (rendered as Esaias in the KJV) in Acts 8:32,33. For further context on the second account, read Acts 8:26-35.

    *The Isaiah prophesy in Acts comes from Isaiah 53:7-8.

  8. Rick B says:

    Janet, I did not mean that JS was crucified, but went to his death like Jesus. JS was not a lamb going to the slaughter, JS did not go quietly like Jesus, Jesus never opened His Mouth or fought back.

    JS did say that was how he was going to die, Like Jesus. Rick b

  9. Janet says:

    Thanks again for your diligence. My interpretation of your “bold” statement went beyond the “Like a Sheep” which showed his true character of an innocent man, I took it as the description of “being put to death like Jesus died, on the Cross. We are just having miscommunication here. I see that you are right, and then again I totally agree that JS went like a Lamb to his death, an innocent man that as of to date no one has provided any evidence to refute this.


  10. Rick B says:

    JS Was far from an innocent man, He shot 3 people 2 died, he took many little girls as wives, that has been covered here before. Killing two people and trying to run away is not even close to being a maryter and knowing your going to die. Rick b

  11. Janet says:

    Twisting the truth without facts again?

    Doing Violence to Journalistic Integrity
    Craig L. Foster

    “In seventeenth-century Chesapeake Bay and environs, it was common for young women to marry at age sixteen or younger. Both brides and grooms were very young in colonial America.83 In fact, American marriage laws borrowed heavily from traditional English common law. Under the common law, the age at which the law conferred nuptial rights on individuals was twelve for women and fourteen for men. Most states and territories accepted those two ages as the minimum ages for marriage. Even as late as the turn of the twentieth century, seven states still allowed twelve-year-old girls to marry. Utah’s minimum age for girls was fourteen.”

  12. Janet says:

    Facts or speculation? Three shot two died?


    Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day. Three of the six barrels misfired, but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers.

  13. Rick B says:

    You can quote from Wiki all you want, I own the original hard covered book, History of the church. It is more in depth that the sound bite you posted. But again no surprise, you guys fight for a lie.

    Answer me this, The Bible is very clear, Jesus went as a lamb to the slaughter, Jesus never opened His mouth, He never tried to defend himself or run away.

    JS claims he went to his death the same way, Please answer honestly and stop deflecting to other issues. Do you believe JS went the same way, Yes or no. If no then that opens a can of worms. If you say yes he did, then give a detailed response as to how fighting back and running away is the same thing Jesus did.

    Something to think about also, If you ignore what I asked, then you are only proving what we say and believe, you guys cannot defend you faith, you claim you have love but do not show it by explaining where we are wrong and doing as the scriptures say, and correct us and turn us from error. Rick b

  14. Ralph says:


    You have been given the answer a few times – you just don’t want to accept it because it does not fit your agendum.

    There were 3 other people in the room besides JS. He saw his brother shot and die in his arms. Two of his friends were in the line of fire and trying to stop it. So he fired the gun in defense of his friends so they would not get killed like his brother as the mob were really only after him. When his gun ran out of bullets he saw one of his friends shot and disappear under the bed, unknown as to whether he was dead or alive. So without any more bullets and one friend left standing he tried to draw fire and go out the window. This worked as the last friend standing was unscathed because everyone was focused on JS. Now you can say what you want about what I have written but that is another plausible scenario, that he was just defending his friends and not trying to save his own life. He went to the window where he was fully exposed to the mob outside the building – that would definitely get him killed and he knew it.

    We are not mind readers, we were not there, thus the story can be construed in more than one way. Since you have an agendum against the LDS church you want to portray it as a desperate, cowardly man trying to run from a mob. most LDS see him as someone who was trying to save his friends at the expense of his own life.

    As far as the men who were shot by JS, John Taylor reported that he ‘heard’ that 2 of them had died but did not see their bodies or graves, but there is sufficient evidence to show that they did not actually die. Although JS pistol only shot 3 rounds he reportedly hit 4 people (Questionable isn’t it? most likely someone got shot by their own people in the mob accidentally). These 4 men were indicted for the murder of JS but 3 of them disappeared before they were caught by the authorities. The evidence indicates more that they skipped town and did not die.

    So the story of JS murder is open to interpretation.

  15. Rick B says:

    Ralph, I notice LDS seem to ignore questions. They use smoke and mirrors, You can answer this question if you like but I do want Janet to reply for herself.

    Question will be laid out so easy a 2 year old could answer it.

    This is what the Bible said about Jesus going to his Death.

    Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    Jer 11:19 But I [was] like a lamb [or] an ox [that] is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, [saying], Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

    Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

    Now can you show me where Jesus Spoke evil about those who accused him? Can you show me where Jesus Fought to defend his friends from the mob in the garden? Can you show me where Jesus tried to come off the cross and run away? It cannot be done.

    Now this is taught about JS,

    JS said I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning;

    Joseph leaped from the window,


    Now it says in the D and C JS shall Die, It seems he knew he was going to die, Yet he tried to run away, Jesus Did not. JS tried leaping from the window, Jesus did not try to run away. JS claimed he was calm as a summers morning, I would beg to differ from what I read.

    Now no dodging the question or trying to change the subject, If you agree with this, then tell me how JS went to his death like Jesus, show me exactly what I’m missing.

    Yet if JS did not go to his death like Jesus, Then how can you guys teach he did? The scriptures do not agree with LDS doctrine. Rick b

  16. Janet says:


    “Joseph Smith ran toward the window where he was shot in the back from inside the jail and shot in the chest from outside the jail”.

    “They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner.”

    See History of the Church, 6:602-618

    “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me—He was murdered in cold blood”

    1. a person who chooses to suffer or die rather than give up his faith or his principles
    2. one who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles
    3. someone who dies defending his or her faith
    4. any person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.

    “His appearance and demeanor conveyed plainly to my mind that he realized he was going as a lamb to the slaughter. I should judge his feelings to be similar to that of the Savior when he uttered those memorable words: ‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Thomas Cottam, Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

  17. grindael says:

    The Nauvoo Charter gave Smith Dictatorial Powers in Nauvoo, and he used & abused them freely. [Go here: http://historytogo.utah.gov/salt_lake_tribune/in_another_time/061696.html for an excellent recap on the Nauvoo Charter & what really caused the exodus from Nauvoo]

    Due to Smith’s sexual advances to Jane Law & others, many of his own turned against him and out of this sprang the Nauvoo Expositor affair. Abusing powers granted by the Nauvoo Charter & feeling safe with Legion of 5,000, smith had the press destroyed.

    It is interesting that in a letter to Brigham Young dated June 17th, (recalling the 12) Hyrum Smith has this to say:

    Communicate to the others of the Twelve with as much speed as possible, with perfect stillness and calmness. A word to the wise is sufficient; and a little powder, lead and a good rifle can be packed in your luggage very easy without creating any suspicion.” HC:6:487

    These are not the words of peace-loving Christians, even in the face of mob violence, especially with a legion at their disposal.

    Here, [June 20th] Smith says that:

    I gave directions to Theodore Turley to commence the manufacture of artillery. He asked me if he should not rent a building, and set some men to repairing the small arms which were out of order. I told him in confidence that there would not be a gun fired on our part during this fuss.” (source above)

    This is hailed as a prophecy by in HotC 6:521, but who fired a gun? Smith himself & his brother Hyrum’s who had one that misfired. Funny how this is overlooked (even though he was defending himself.)

    Meanwhile Governor Ford, arriving at Carthage, declared that Smith had broken the law in wrecking the press and not giving the Church dissenters a trial. He objected to unusual searches of houses and the powers Smith had exercised in acting as judge and issuing writs to free himself and others.

  18. grindael says:

    He said the prophet had assumed too many powers and that he, along with those who were involved in the action against the Expositor, must stand trial at Carthage. Ford said he would call out the state militia if Smith did not surrender himself as ordered. Ford, who promised to stay at Carthage, returned to Nauvoo & was later accused by Porter Rockwell [who was accused of shooting Gov. Boggs of Missouri at the behest of Smith] of complicity in the Smith’s murders. On the 21st, smith says this about his brother Hyrum:

    “I wish I could get Hyrum out of the way, so that he may live to avenge my blood, and I will stay with you and see it out.” (source above)

    Is this the attitude or words of a martyr? Here is a letter to Emma, dated June 25th:

    Dear Emma.—I have had an interview with Governor Ford, and he treats us honorably. Myself and Hyrum have been again arrested for treason because we called out the Nauvoo Legion; but when the truth comes out we have nothing to fear. We all feel calm and composed.

    This morning Governor Ford introduced myself and Hyrum to the militia in a very appropriate manner, as General Joseph Smith and General Hyrum Smith. There was a little mutiny among the Carthage Greys, but I think the Governor has and will succeed in enforcing the laws. I do hope the people of Nauvoo will continue pacific and prayerful. Governor Ford has just concluded to send some of his militia to Nauvoo to protect the citizens, and I wish that they may be kindly treated. They will co-operate with the police to keep the peace. The Governor’s orders will be read in the hearing of the police and officers of the Legion, as I suppose.

    3 o’clock.—The Governor has just agreed to march his army to Nauvoo, and I shall come along with him. The prisoners, all that can, will be admitted to bail. I am as ever, Joseph Smith.

  19. grindael says:

    Notice no mention of mistreatment by the Governor or that ‘he was about to die’ as mentioned by others, although I do not doubt the intention of the Carthage Greys in reference to the violence they wanted to perpetuate on smith. Again, on the 26th, another letter by smith:

    Carthage Jail, June 26, 1844.

    His Hon. Judge Thomas.

    Dear Sir,—You will perceive by my date that I am in prison. Myself and brother Hyrum were arrested yesterday on charge of treason without bringing us before the magistrate; last evening we were committed on a mittimus from Justice Robert F. Smith, stating that we had been before the magistrate, which is utterly false; but from the appearance of the case at present, we can have no reasonable prospect of anything but partial decisions of law, and all the prospect we have of justice being done is to get our case on habeas corpus before an impartial judge; the excitement and prejudice is such in this place, testimony is of little avail.

    Therefore, sir, I earnestly request your honor to repair to Nauvoo without delay. and make yourself at home at my house until the papers can be in readiness for you to bring us on habeas corpus. Our witnesses are all at Nauvoo, and there you can easily investigate the whole matter, and I will be responsible to you for all the trouble and expense. (source above HotC vol. 6)

    Again, no mention whatsoever by Smith in his letters about dying as a martyr or that he felt his death was imminent, even to his lawyer. All the affidavits that appear in the HotC are sworn out years later, and all of the comments about his going like a lamb to the slaughter are made by mormons.

  20. grindael says:

    In his last letter to Emma, smith had this to say:

    Carthage Jail, June 27th, 1844.
    20 minutes past eight A.M.

    Dear Emma.—The Governor continues his courtesies, and permits us to see our friends. We hear this morning that the Governor will not go down with his troops today to Nauvoo, as we anticipated last evening; but if he does come down with his troops you will be protected; and I want you to tell Brother Dunham to instruct the people to stay at home and attend to their own business, and let there be no groups or gathering together, unless by permission of the Governor, they are called together to receive communications from the Governor, which would please our people, but let the Governor direct.
    Brother Dunham of course will obey the orders of the government officers, and render them the assistance they require. There is no danger of any extermination order. Should there be a mutiny among the troops (which we do not anticipate, excitement is abating) a part will remain loyal and stand for the defense of the state and our rights. There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety.

    Joseph Smith.

    P. S.—Dear Emma, I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified, and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends, Mr. Brewer, and all who inquire after me; and as for treason, I know that I have not committed any, and they cannot prove anything of the kind, so you need not have any fears that anything can happen to us on that account. May God bless you all. Amen.

    The closest we get here is smith saying ‘I am resigned to my lot’. This could be a reference to anything, imprisonment, etc.

  21. grindael says:

    Even though there was threats, we see nothing in smith’s correspondence saying he was going like a ‘lamb to the slaughter’, or felt he was going to die right then.

    As the mob was approaching, the jailer became nervous, and informed Smith of the group. In a letter dated July 10, 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said “Don’t trouble yourself … they’ve come to rescue me.” Here was Smith’s great opportunity to give himself to the mob, (to save his brothers) but no, instead he thinks it is the Nauvoo Legion come to rescue him. The Governor had made passes to several people who could see smith, & one of them was Cyrus Wheelock, who gave smith the revolver he used. Hyrum also had one, which he (misfired) just before he was struck by the bullets that killed him.

    Allen J. Stout, from his journal relates:

    “And while they were in jail, Brother Joseph wrote an official order to Jonathan Dunham to bring the Legion and reserve him from being killed,but Dunham did not let a single man or mortal know that he had received such orders, and we were kept in the city under arms, not knowing but all was well, until the mob came and forced the prison and slew Joseph and Hyrum Smith and wounded John Taylor severely.” (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/AStout.html)

  22. grindael says:

    The Carthage Greys [headed by Lt. Frank Worrell] reportedly feigned defense of the jail by firing shots or blanks [ Worrell later refused to answer whether rifles carried by the Greys that day had been loaded with blanks & would later die by the hand of Porter Rockwell] over the attackers’ heads, and some of the Greys reportedly joined the mob, who rushed up the stairs.

    The mob fired shots through the door and attempted to push the door open to fire into the room. Hyrum Smith was shot in the face, just to the left of his nose. He cried out, “I am a dead man!” and collapsed. His body received five additional gunshot wounds.

    Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day. Three of the six barrels misfired, but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers.

    Here we see that Smith did not go “as a lamb to the slaughter”, but fully intended to have the Nauvoo Legion come and rescue him. He could have ordered his friends out [in advance]if he really thought them in danger, but he did not. Again, being a ‘martyr’ in the traditional sense is not denying your religion in the face of torture or death. Smith was not ‘put to the question’ as many others who died for Christ were, and was nothing like Peter & Paul who willingly submitted to their deaths. Smith died in a gunfight, trying to leap out the window after his brother & Taylor were riddled with bullets. Most of the statements about smith ‘returning’, and the quotes of his predicting his death were made by Mormons, and should be dismissed as such. What is telling is the written letters that smith sent out from the jail that show smith fully expected to be vindicated. He was not, & died in a gun battle.

  23. Janet says:


    By April 1844, dissenters openly challenged Joseph Smith’s leadership by organizing a reform church and publishing a newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor, for the purpose of denouncing him. Perceiving the Expositor as a threat to the peace of the community, the Nauvoo city council, with Joseph Smith presiding as mayor, authorized him to order the destruction of the press—an act that ignited the opposition. On June 12 the Prophet was charged with riot for destruction of the press. After a flurry of legal maneuvers, Joseph submitted to arrest at nearby Carthage, the county seat, under the governor’s pledge of protection. Joseph had premonitions of danger, and the vocal threats of hotheads in adjoining towns gave substance to his fears. On June 27, 1844, while in Carthage Jail awaiting a hearing, Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were killed when a mob with blackened faces stormed the jail. The next day the brothers’ bodies were returned to Nauvoo, where ten thousand Latter-day Saints gathered to mourn the loss of their Prophet.

  24. grindael says:

    Still does NOT prove he was some kind of martyr. He wasn’t. And cutting and pasting Mormon Apologist sites doesn’t make it so. They did not ask him to ‘deny’ his religion. He was murdered because he kept flagrantly breaking the law, and it was instigated mostly by his own people who had turned against him. They were in a position to know.

  25. Joseph Smith wrote

    There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives…

    (noted above in Grindael’s quote from Joseph Smith’s last letter to his first wife, Emma).

    Well, it seems that Jesus didn’t pay much attention to this “one principle which is eternal”.

    Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

    (John 15:13).

    I suppose it takes a guy like Joseph Smith to correct the mistakes that Jesus made (LOL).

    Seriously, though, I don’t see any basis in the Bible to throw away your life lightly, wantonly or stupidly. However, if there is “one principle which is eternal”, it is that self-preservation doesn’t work.

    Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

    (Luke 17:23)

    The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

    (John 12:25)

    It shows you just how much Joseph Smith had faith in God.

  26. Rick B says:

    Janet, I do not believe JS was a maryter, I dont care how you define it, JS tried to run away to save his hide, He did not willing lay down his life as it is portrayed. If He was like Jesus He would have willing died, not tried to run away. Huge difference. Please explain how Jesus willing suffered and died for us, and JS tried running away, how is that the same? Rick b

  27. setfree says:

    “…Joseph had premonitions of danger…”

    I understand wanting to believe that JS confirmed himself as a prophet because he could see that his death was a-coming

    but seriously, it’s so laughable

    personally, if I was sneaking around behind parents’ backs, coercing their teenage daughters…
    sneaking around behind husbands’ backs (even my own close friends and followers) propositioning their wives…
    sneaking around behind Uncle Sam’s back, threatening revolution…
    etc etc etc…

    I think I’d probably be able to see danger coming


  28. jackg says:

    Good point, Martin!

  29. Ralph says:


    The phrase ‘going like a lamb to the slaughter’ has been used by many people, not just those describing Jesus or by JS. And I don’t remember being taught that JS was referring to this statement about Jesus. So I don’t see any connection between the use in these two circumstances.

    Next, I am not a mind reader, nor was I there to see the circumstances but JS could just have been talking about that one point in time where he decided to turn around and go towards imminent death, not the actual point in time of his murder.


    What is wrong with keeping a loaded gun in case of bandits? Jesus’ apostles kept sword with them. That is how Peter was able to cut the ear off one of the people who came to arrest Jesus.

  30. Rick B says:

    Ralph, I know you dont agree, but it really is sad how LDS must defend their teachings and defend the prophet because there are so many problems with the LDS gospel. It’s going to be a sad day when each LDS member dies and stands before the Lord and Hears the word, Depart from me I never knew you. Then you will be cast away and tormented with the fact you knew you believed and defended a lie. I know you will say it will never happen, but then when you die and you hear those words, you really will not be surprised. Rick b

  31. Olsen Jim says:


    I wonder if we even need to stand before the throne of Christ seeing as you have already taken care of the judgement. That is about as arrogant and unchristian as anything a person could say. It rings of Pharisaic thinking.

    I am soooo glad judgement is in the hands of Him who knows the heart, motives, and desires of everybody. For all the faults of LDS, I have found it rare for them to make such utterly ridiculous and haughty statements.

  32. Rick B says:

    Have you ever read Gal 1 8-9?

    Have you ever read the Bible where Jesus said, People will stand before Him and He will tell them I never knew you. Rick b

  33. rvales says:

    Could you please define ‘unchristian.’ It seems the term gets thrown around a lot but without any standardized definition to help offenders recognize and curb their ‘unchristian’ characteristics.

  34. Olsen Jim says:


    Are you Christ? Do you have the ability to determine that another human being will be cast out by Christ?

    rvales- I think the good Samaritan is the best definition of a Christian- I think Christ would take that over any definition created by those focusing on boundaries and technicalities.

  35. rvales says:

    How is what has been said here opposite of the good Samaritan?

  36. Olsen Jim says:


    RickB told Ralph that at the last day Ralph will be cast out from Christ and hear the words “Depart from me I never knew you. Then you will be cast away and tormented…” If that is not ultimate judgementalism, I don’t know what is. That typifies very well the self-righteous religionists who passed around and left the man on the road who was ultimately saved by the Samaritan.

    Why did Christ use a Samaritan in the story? Based almost entirely on religious grounds, the Samaritans were despised and viewed as lesser humans. Those who passed by with their noses in the air were those from the favored religious circles. Christ was teaching the fact that religion is of no use if it does not affect the way we treat those around us. Those who felt they were chosen and saved were the snobs who neglected their neighbor. And that was the antithesis of a follower of Christ.

    Christ had the authority to make such judgements on earth. It is more than a little presumptuous for one to assume that authority.

  37. rvales says:

    Would it have been ‘unchristian’ if Rick B had said that to a hindu or muslim or atheist or scientologist?

  38. Olsen Jim says:


    You ask “Would it have been ‘unchristian’ if Rick B had said that to a hindu or muslim or atheist or scientologist?”


  39. rvales says:

    So you would prefer he sugarcoat the ramifications of not having salvation so that he doesn’t sound mean? If someone where about to walk right off a cliff would you sugarcoat the seriousness of what they are doing or would you be firm with them? Would you enable someone who is addicted to drugs because you don’t want to look ‘unloving’ so you continue to give them money and clean up their messes or would you allow for some tough love and tell them what they do not want to hear or accept? Jesus said he would turn many away who thought they were shoe-ins for the kingdom. Jesus turned over tables and drove money changers out of his father’s house with a whip. Jesus told people they were wrong whether they liked hearing it or not, was Christ ‘unchristian’…no because he loved them and they needed to hear it.. And today Jesus works thru his followers to convict and draw people to him. He doesn’t need to he can just make someone understand but he uses fallible people to accomplish his will. So when you are standing before God and he says ‘Why should you get to hang out in heaven in my prescence’ and you say ‘Well I know I wasn’t perfect but look at all this stuff I did in your name’ and he tells you to depart you can’t say ‘But you never told me I was wrong, I got a feeling from the holy spirit that I was right why didn’t you send me a message’ He’ll say, ‘I sent you Mormon Coffee, I sent you Rick B, I gave you a mind and the ability to reason and most importantly I sent you my Word and you didn’t like what any of those had to say. So depart I never knew you.’ I know it sounds harsh and I don’t presume to know someone’s heart (unlike your missionaries who would tell me that my lack of a testimony of the BoM is the product of my insincere heart and hidden sin) I do contend that the Bible has harsh words for those who think they are going to wow their way into the kingdom with their signs and wonders when Jesus wants us to be 100% dependant on him

  40. setfree says:

    Just an observation, but the ultimate act of a good-Samaritan would be to help someone realize that they were eternal danger, and try to pull them onto the right road, right? So much more Samaritan-ish than say, to give them some money or take them to a doctor. Both of those things are only temporal.
    Just sayin

  41. rvales says:

    It would serve your purpose to convince yourself and others that we are hateful ugly people who only want to tear down the LDS (or anyone else who doesn’t see eye to eye with us) But OJ as people who believe that you are walking the wide path to destruction wouldn’t the truly ‘unchristian’ thing for us to do be let you continue on your merry way? If I truly believed that someone was going to hell, how much would I have to hate them to not say something? OJ the truth is I believe that following the mormon doctrine and precepts will lead you away from God and I love you too much to not contend with you about it. I want to see you in Heaven some day singing praises right along with me to our Almighty God who created us out of nothing for his pleasure and who, while we were yet still sinners, died for us!Romans 5:8

  42. ralph wrote

    What is wrong with keeping a loaded gun in case of bandits? Jesus’ apostles kept sword with them. That is how Peter was able to cut the ear off one of the people who came to arrest Jesus.


    Read on and see how Jesus reacted to Peter’s use of the sword (Matt 26:52, in particular).

    I think there are a number of valid ways to read this. We could say that Jesus did not want to see blood shed on his behalf (either that of his freinds or his enemies). Or we could say that he did not want his legacy to operate in competition to the current civil (worldly) powers (note that a number of Messianic movements had and already tried to do so in NT times). Or we could say that Jesus needed to surrender to the authorities in order to achieve his objective, which was crucifixion. Or we could say pretty much all of the above, as none of them excludes the others.

    What is clear, however, is that Jesus is demonstrating the ultimate denial of self-preservation. He is absolutely acting against his self-interests.

    What is abundantly apparent from all the extant accounts, is that Joseph Smith absolutely acted to preserve himself, and his self-interests.

    If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. Or in Joseph Smith’s case, a six shot pepper box pistol.

    (P.S. Its a different thread, but my quick response to the question “should Christians be pacifists” would be along the lines of “its right for me to defend your interests, or even for me to defend my interests when your interests might be compromised by association or precedent, but I would be reluctant to defend my interests at the expense of yours”)

  43. Rick B says:

    Hey Jim,
    Before you call me unchristian here are some things to think about.

    True or False, JS said he heard from God and God told him that everything I believe is an abomination in his sight. Can I defend myself against that?

    True or False: The BoM claims their are only TWO CHURCHES, The Church of God, the real and true Church, and the Church of the Devil, the One I am in according to your theology. Boy that’s loving and Christlike is it not?

    Now more true or false statements from the Bible the Word of God. Are these things I am posting True or false?

    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Are these found in the Bible?

    If so are they unloving Non Christ like statements to say, you will go to hell for not even loving Jesus? Telling people they are false prophets or that false prophets exist?

    Hell is real and people are going there every day by the thousands. Jesus said the road that leads to life is very narrow and only a few will find it, but the road to destruction is wide and many are on it.

    You say we Christians are not very loving. I have said many times I see zero love from LDS. You guys never sit down and give us details on why or how were wrong. You simply say that we’re twisting your words or we really don’t understand LDS teachings, so were not able… Cont.

  44. Rick B says:

    Share with you guys according to you. But yet you guys never show us how or where we are wrong, I have had many LDS judge me to my face and say, you really dont want to know, or you really dont care.

    Thats Judging, not what I said about going to hell, thats in the Bible. Rick b

  45. Jim,


    Just because something does not sound nice does not make it “unchristian”. Indirectly you are attacking a widespread Christian belief – that if one dies apart from Christ he/she dies in her sins and thus spiritually dies. This belief is part-and-parcel to many Christian sects; thus, you are calling them “unchristian”.

    For the record, we know that LDS soteriology approaches univeralism. Simply repeating that does nothing. While this may not be the thread for it, what we need you to do is demonstrate to us that this belief is correct and that others are wrong.

  46. Rick B says:

    Hey O.J.
    I am going to take a wild guess here and say, I know you clearly did not like what I had to say, but on the other you and other LDS will make no honest attempt to take me on in truth in what I said.

    In all honesty how can you, it is clear your Prophets/presidents and standard works judge us and do exactly what you jumped on me for supposedly doing.

    Then in honesty how can you refute the verses I posted unless….

    Unless you do what all other LDS have done that I have said those things to and that is, they say those verses only apply to a few select people that Jesus or the apostles were speaking to years ago, or it’s ok for them to say those things but not me.

    I would also like an honest attempt at an answer from Janet or Jim, I will take one from Ralph, but here is my thinking, OJ and Ralph and others tell me I am wrong or cannot say things then when I call them on it they seem to leave and Ralph comes along to reply for them.

    I’ll take any response I can get, but I at least would like the people who tell me I am wrong to defend their position. This is simply why I see no love from the LDS.

    You might think it is not loving for me to warn you of the eternal danger that coming, but it’s more loving to warn you and let you do what you want with that info then for you to believe that their will be lesser heavens or even outer darkness that awaits me and yet you refuse to turn me from the error of my ways, then tell me I am judging you, all the while you judge me not worthy enough to hear the truth so you with hold it from me. Any thoughts? Rick b

  47. Olsen Jim says:

    You guys seem to be trying to convince me that there will be lots of people cast out by Christ at the judgement day. When have I ever denied that? Do you get what I am saying?

    It is extremely arrogant and self-righteous for one person to tell another that they are going to be cast out and burn in hell forever. CHRIST IS THE JUDGE, RICKB IS NOT. That is my point. You are placing yourself on equal standing with Christ as judge.

    This is my main beef with people who spend a lot of time criticizing LDS or others. It is so in line with the pharisees- it is hard to believe you do not see that. They loved boundaries and excluding people based on those boundaries. They were self-righteous because they were so quick to dismiss and condemn others based on the criteria they had created, mixing their arrogance with scripture.

    I am not arguing for “sugar-coating” the truth. I am arguing that a person who feels comfortable saying another is going to burn in hell is sooooo far from Christ.

    Yet the EVs here seem so comfortable doing that. It must come from your belief that your salvation is a done deal.

    Rvales said “Jesus said he would turn many away who thought they were shoe-ins for the kingdom.” Amen. You are making my point.

    Bottom line- I think it is fine to have differences in doctrine and beliefs and to fully recognize those differences. It is an entirely different and inappropriate thing for one of us to claim enough of anything to condemn another to hell. That is flat out dangerous and blasphemous. I would be afraid God might hear me say such a thing.

    You criticize LDS for emphasizing works because you claim we seek to lift ourselves above others, yet you are the ones who are so anxious to claim you are saved while others are damned. Can you see the irony?

    “ Judge not, that ye be not judged.” Matt 7:1

  48. Rick B says:

    OJ, First, You quote Matt 7:1, Have you read all of it or only one verse?

    Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Mat 7:21
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Jesus said false prophets will arise and we will know them by their fruits. Please explain how I can tell if a person is a wolf or lying to me, or if their fruit is good or evil if I do not make a judgment?

    Then you total missed my questions, Did Paul make a judgment saying if you dont even LOVE THE LORD you will go to hell? When Jesus said not all who say LORD ,LORD will enter heaven. So Do I tell people Jesus said that and you might end up going if you teach a false gospel or do I hope and pray they simply read those verse and never point them out for fear of hurting their feelings or coming across as judgmental?

    Plus the statements from your BoM, How can I tell if the Church is from God or of the Devil unless I judge what they teach according to the word of God? Rick b

  49. Rick B says:

    Again it seems you pick and choose what to reply to while ignoring the rest, and again it shows no love on your part taking the time to correct me. By your actions your judging me and making a judgment that I will not receive the truth or want to hear it even though I am saying I really do want to hear it, so your doing what you accuse me of doing and going against what scripture teaches.

    Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    According to James I am trying to do this, but not you guys. Wheres the Love?

    Please go out of your way and explain to me exactly how LDS are loving and showing us love. I would love to hear it. Rick b

  50. Jim,

    “I am arguing that a person who feels comfortable saying another is going to burn in hell is sooooo far from Christ”

    Don’t you see the irony in your statement? You are claiming that someone is, or can be, far from Christ based on that person’s beliefs. Rick is just following through on his set of beliefs; he is taking them to their logical conclusion. If their is a real hell, then real people are really going to go there.

    The Judge, Christ Jesus, has told us that certain people are going to hell. If you trust the words of scripture then you must acknowledge that “He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life” (I Jn 5:12).

    Jim how can you get around that? An atheist by definition does not have “the Son”. Honestly, at least we are being forthright in what we believe. Consider – if we behaved in the opposite way, concealed this truth, that you would accuse us of being ashamed of it or even being deceptive. And if we are forthright with it, like we are, then we get the response you are giving us now. Contrast our behavior towards the Mormon obfuscation on the issue of eternal progression.

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