Capstone Conference

I’ll be at the Capstone Conference today and tomorrow at Calvary Chapel SLC. I will try to live-blog some of the sessions here. If you are in the SLC area and would like to come, please do. The conference is free! Be sure to check out the agenda and location.

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73 Responses to Capstone Conference

  1. Janet says:

    Watched, listened, and felt sorry for Bill McKeever. A wonderful and gifted speaker who has no clue or desire to find the truth of Mormonism. I’m sure that those who attended or listened were entertained, but I’m not so sure they were taught much truth.


  2. mobaby says:

    Janet –

    Glad you listened. I only got to hear part of the last bit about the weight of the golden plates.

    I have a question in all seriousness – why do you think Bill McKeever has no desire to find the truth of Mormonism? Why would you have that desire and not him? What is different about Bill McKeever that has made him closed to the truth of Mormonism?, or what is different about you? Is there any possibility that you could have it exactly 180 degrees wrong – that Bill is open to the truth about Mormonism, while you, being invested in the Mormon religion, are not open to the truth?

  3. Janet, if you have any specifics you’d like to correct, please do so, otherwise it’s like many of the e-mails MRM receives, i.e. “YOUR SITE IS FULL OF LIES.”

    Without specifics, it’s just not helpful or constructive. And it comes across as just a personal attack.

  4. Enki says:

    One source commenting about the plates suggested it was made of an alloy called Tumbaga. Which is a mixture of copper and gold. To the untrained observer it could appear to be made of pure gold or ‘golden’. This is an interesting suggestion, as this alloy would solve the weight problem, and usability problems of pure gold. Tumbaga appears red in color, unless treated. The author claims this is simple and treated tumbaga is known in the americas.

    The author notes: “Nevertheless, tumbaga will destroy itself if it is not stored properly. It is therefore interesting to note that the Book of Mormon plates were laid atop two stones which lay across the bottom of the stone box so that the plates would not be exposed to water or dirt.”
    Book of Mormon Anachronisms, Michael R. Ash 1998

    Is there any description anywhere of how the original plates are said to be made? Its an interesting suggestion, as I never heard of the “Tumbaga plates”.

  5. The ancients apparently used electroplating and got all the variables right.

    They should just go ahead and call it a miracle.

  6. Enki says:

    I have a problem with my computer, I cannot listen to the audio above. Was tumbaga specifically mentioned? The process does not sound that technical. It doesn’t sound like electroplating was required. Also don’t under estimate what ancient people knew about or did. Sometimes there was certain technology or knowledge that wasn’t available to the masses, but was utilized by someone at particular times. So there is a possibility, I suppose. Are you really trying to bust this one? I know that LDS people will work their darnedest to tweek finds and the limits of science, most of the time its seems faulty. This one is interesting however. It doesn’t mean its true or plausible. It could take time to bust.

    I love watching the discovery channel, sometimes they present things which are just so amazing. I hate to said it to you but, the intelligent design people seem to have a lot in common with the LDS people.

  7. Enki, Tumbaga was spoken of. I think the probability that the ancients got all the variables right to supposedly get the weight down is so improbable that Mormons should call it a miracle.

    Also, if one thinks it can be done without electroplating, then there’s that pesky problem of the cheating that goes on when Mormons try to replicate the plates.

  8. Enki says:

    Its ok Aaron. My mistake I apologize, my response was not great. Maybe this isn’t that interesting or worthwhile to consider. It does take time to seriously find info. I was just surprised at your first answer. Anyways I would find any response from either side to be interesting. Thank you.

  9. falcon says:

    Our Mormon poster gives us a glimpse into the mind of the true believer. Buried in a mountain of evidence that Mormonism is a hucksters paradise, Mormons hold fast to their emotional commitment to Mormonism. It makes me want to ask, “What do Mormons know that the rest of us don’t?” The answer of course is that the Mormon god has spoken to them and provided a burning in the bosom that confirms that the BoM et al are true and all of the evidence proving it false is a test of their devotion to Mormonism and the “truth” of the restored gospel.
    The emotional commitment and feelings are everything when it comes to being conned. There is no such thing as “it just doesn’t add up” in the mind and emotions of a true believer when faced with the reality that they are caught in a scam. It’s an emotional trap and the flimsy rebuttals offered by Mormons is enough to help them rescue the equity they have invested in Mormonism, but to the rest of us the clear light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ exposes Mormonism for the sham it is.
    BTW, Bill McKeever has forgotten more about Mormonism than most Mormons know.

  10. Janet says:

    “I’m sure that those who attended or listened were entertained, but I’m not so sure they were taught much truth.” quoted from my first post.

    Since all of McKeevers assumptions must be considered speculation based on the fact we don’t have the Brass Plates only witnesses who actually were there and estimated the weight at 60 pounds, most likely more accurate then McKeevers guessing.

    Gold, brass, or some kind of alloy, can not be proved other then what the Book of Mormon actually states. The plates of Ether were specifically distinguished as being of “pure” gold (Mosiah 8:9), but where the Book of Mormon plates the same metal or something quiet different? I’m not sure, but McKeever’s plate seem to be a single block of metal and it has been pointed out that the Brass Plates were handcrafted by pounding the plates into thin leaves most likely leaving air space between the pages and reducing the weight accordingly, does he even mention this? We know, for example, that the plates were of an alloy possibly bronze, a copper-tin mixture. Joseph Smith own statement was that the plates had an appearance of Gold. The word “tumbaga”, an alloy of those two elements gold and copper.

  11. Janet says:

    Evidence of this alloy dates back to ancient tropical America for manufacturing precious objects. So does McKeever have it right, does he even suggest that there might be other theories? Entertainment or facts and evidence? Is McKeever interested in finding the truth or only promoting an agenda.


  12. falcon says:

    This is so funny. I was watching Bill’s excellent presentation and I can “hear” the Mormons in my head. I was thinking that if all else fails what a Mormon will typically do is have a “miraculous” answer for the evidence that points to why Smith could, for example, put the plates under his arm and run or how he could fight off bandits or whatever.
    It’s the same thing that Smith used to pull when they couldn’t find the buried treasure. It was the old “We drew the circle too small” or “Someone spoke when they weren’t suppose to” during the digging or the “gold slipped further into the ground.” The whole point of course is basic salesmanship; “People buy things emotionally and then justify their purchase with some form of reason.” The reason doesn’t even have to make sense as long as the person believes it.
    Our Mormon poster is constantly talking about finding the truth but in reality has no interest in the truth of Mormonism or its founder Joseph Smith. I’d advise that the Mormon poster just “go with it” and not worry too much about the truth. Uncovering the truth regarding Mormonism, is a painful process for the Mormon because at every turn a tremendous leap of faith is required to continue on.
    So just go with an explanation of magic plates and magic glasses and keep pouring quarters in the Mormon slot machine even when hope is lost that its ever going to payoff. Rescuing equity is a tough psychological trap to escape from.

  13. Janet says:

    I see our above poster does everything but address remarks I made concerning the plates. Amazing bit of deflection which he quiet nicely tries to turn the debate around to just belief, and how it take a tremendous leap of faith to continue on as if that answers my suggested claims. I’m sure he will be even more entertained tonight as this small group of guest and visitors come together to be taught a mostly slanted version of Mormonism.


  14. setfree says:


    In all honesty, I remember how hard it was… in fact, I would think it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for me to just up and want to know the actual truth about God and the Bible, unless my life had fallen apart, and I found out that I HAD TO find Him. I needed Him. I had exhausted all my resources, and nothing had helped. So I finally, unwillingly, submitted my life to His will. It was the hardest most impossible thing I’d ever done. And you couldn’t have talked me into it had you tried.

    That’s me. I don’t know about everyone else. I just remembered how difficult it was for me to actually care what the TRUTH really was.

    I had asked for it though. Knowing just a little bit of Bible truth, I had told Him that I wanted to be saved. I was hoping that ‘the prayer’ was pretty much all there was too it. I kinda just wanted to keep doing what I’d always done. I was hoping that “salvation” wouldn’t mean a very big change in my life. But it did, boy, did it ever.

    It’s not that the Mormons out here are daft. It’s that you can’t come to God except ON HIS TERMS, and to do that, you have to be truly willing to give up everything. It’s difficult. Very very difficult. At least, it was for me.

    The good news is that there is no way I’d ever go back, knowing what I know now. He required the ultimate sacrifice from me, my WILL. And He has done abundantly in my life more than I could have hoped for.

    But how does a person find the WILL to sacrifice their will to God? It’s a work of God. Plain and simple.

  15. setfree says:

    Janet, are you missing all the quotes (from original sources… Joe and Emma Smith for example) that said they were gold plates?

    It’s another one of those “one in a million” things that the church is becoming famous for. Early Mormonism didn’t say it just right, now that the evidence shows that it’s wrong, so let’s rewrite what they should have said back then….

  16. falcon says:

    I was discussing this topic on the basis of which our Mormon poster understands, emotionality. Mormons do scurry about trying to find some evidence that the Joseph Smith myth has some validity. Mormons could however adopt the motto, “You can’t understand Joseph Smith, you have to ‘feel’ Joseph Smith.” I think our Mormon poster needs to spend some time searching for the real truth and not the Mormon truth.
    I’ve provided, over the years on this blog, enough evidence that Mormonism is a total farce. It’s never enough for the Mormon true believer because their emotional commitment to Mormonism along with their faux spiritual experiences have them in a mental lock-down mode. I must admit, never having been in a cult, I don’t know what it’s like to think in these terms. I do have compassion for these folks however once they’ve been exposed to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it’s decision time.


    I read accounts like yours and certain things become very clear to me. Thank you very much for sharing your story.

    the falcon
    soaring to new heights

  17. Janet says:

    ” Joe and Emma Smith for example) that said they were gold plates”

    I had no idea that Emma ever saw them, what could you provide me source wise, as this is of great interest to me.


  18. Rick B says:


    “While I was thus in the act of calling upon God I discovered a light appearing in the room which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside standing in the air for his feet did not touch the floor…When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. (1) That God had a work for me to do, and that my name should be had for good and evil, among all nations, kindreds, and tongues; or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people. He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fullness of the everlasting gospel was contained in it, (2) as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants. Also that there were two stones in silver bows, and these stones fastened to a breastplate constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim, deposited with the plates, and the possession and use of these stones was what constituted seers in ancient or former times, and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753; Comp.with Pearl of Great Price, p.52)

    Notice it states they were GOLD PLATES, Not Gold colored or gold plated. Rick b

  19. Janet says:

    “I was discussing this topic on the basis of which our Mormon poster understands, emotionality.”

    This poster has still not addressed any of my issues. As far as emotions, what a wonderful gift God has bestowed upon all his children, the ability to feel the love of Christ.

    As far as winning the dispute about Mormonism, mostly all I see are issues with how we are cultish, emotional, and feely. (made up word).

    Sincerely, Janet

  20. Rick B says:

    Janet said, mostly all I see are issues with how we are cultish, emotional, and feely.

    Really? You dont see how LDS cannot answer questions? You accuse a poster of not answer your question, A while back I asked a question and gave quotes directed to you about Adam God that were left unanswered.

    Then the above quotes says, GOLD PLATES, You asked for it I gave it. Then the many questions of how Mormons from the JS and BY young days clearly said…

    Yet LDS today twist what they said and say, those guys were not clear, or since I dont fully understand what they said, it must not effect me.

    Or The Prophets say, The prophets cannot lead the church astray yet they are and these problems go unanswered. So Yes Janet, you accuse A poster of something you seem to do and LDS are notorious for doing. Rick b

  21. setfree says:

    It’s so clear from over here, but not from inside (obviously).

    Joe Smith: I translated from gold plates the Book of Mormon which is a book about the history of the Native Americans.

    Questioner: Um, Gold plates? But what about….

    Today’s Mormon: No, not gold plates, some kind of alloy.

    Questioner: um, translated? but what about…

    Today’s Mormon: No, not translated. Inspired by or something

    Questioner: um, the Native Americans? But what about…

    Today’s Mormon: No, not Native Americans. Other people, that were, um, living by the Native Americans

    Joe Smith: And I translated the scrolls of Abraham and Joseph of Egypt

    Questioner: Abraham and Joseph? Really? But what about…

    Today’s Mormon: um, the Book of Breathings thing inspired a vision

    Joe Smith: I’m a prophet.

    Questioner: Really? but what about these prophecies and…

    Today’s Mormon: he doesn’t need to be perfect! you are too critical

    It’s the same thing every time. Perfectly said, it’s like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

    But I’m seriously sympathetic. How does one become able to question the footing of their life?
    It’s more than a little easy to see why you wouldn’t do it

  22. Janet says:

    Rick, please answer, I’m interested in your source.

    I had no idea that Emma ever saw them, what could you provide me source wise, as this is of great interest to me.


  23. Rick B says:

    Janet, I think you really need to read better and get your facts straight, otherwise it really makes us wonder if your really looking for truth and honest answers or simply here to defend a lie.

    I never said Emma saw the plates, I believe that was set free. Then I gave a quote from JS you said the angel stated they were GOLD plates.

    I posted more, but here is a snippet. (1) That God had a work for me to do, and that my name should be had for good and evil, among all nations, kindreds, and tongues; or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people. He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates,

    JS Said God spoke to him and the plates were GOLD, Then I gave the source, (Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753; Comp.with Pearl of Great Price, p.52)

    So you need to pay more attention. Rick b

  24. Rick B says:

    Janet, Here is a quote stating they are GOLD PLATES. God gave Joseph Smith the gift and power to translate writings recorded centuries ago in a language of which Joseph had no knowledge. Recalled Joseph’s wife Emma, “No man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired.”4 Joseph translated the gold plates in less than three

    Janet, Care to guess where I found this quote? I found it on your Church’s website. Here is the link.


    Who knows, maybe the Church will remove this so it can be changed to fit the newest believe, Gold PLATED. Rick b

  25. setfree says:

    Rick, thanks for the giving the resources, complete with links.

    Janet, you’ll notice that I, also, did not say that Lucy SAW the plates. I don’t believe any one saw any golden plates, and that includes Joseph Smith. Except with their mind’s eye, of course. All of this can be found in Mormon literature. Check Aaron’s original post. I’ll bet he even included a link to Bill’s research here on MRM.

    How about any of the other subjects brought up in the original post?

    I wonder what it will look like when the Mormon church starts to try to defend the many accounts of the first vision. Oh, yeah, they already have.

    Questioner: Why are the accounts of the first vision so different?

    Today’s Mormon: “Memory is interpretive. Memory is dynamic. Memory is process,” Harper said. “It is not a copy of the past to play over again later. Memories are subjective and personal.”

    Questioner: Um… okay, but if God and Jesus appeared to me, in a “we’re here to set things straight, once and for all” kind of way, I um, you know, I think I’d remember if it was God and Jesus, or just Jesus, or just an angel, or lots of angels, or….

  26. Rick B says:

    Janet I already quoted you but setfree brought up a good point, so here goes again.

    Janet said, mostly all I see are issues with how we are cultish, emotional, and feely.

    Funny how you do not see the issues we address like the NINE DIFFERENT first vision accounts that took places over a period of years. Yet you and all other LDS seem to have replys as to how this is possible and ok for this to happen, because if it is proven false then your believe is false.

    Yet things that do matter, like Adam God are simply tossed aside as, BY was not sure of what he said, or it really does not matter to me. It really is sad how you guys defend lies and avoid the big issues. Rick b

  27. falcon says:

    Again, I answer our Mormon poster on the basis of which she has accepted Mormonism, that is the emotions. There’s enough people on this blog unloading tons of information on the historical facts surrounding Mormonism and the prophetic folly of Smith and his subsequent false prophets. My interest is in the psychological, emotional and, in the case of Mormonism, occult hook(s) that pull people (into Mormonism) and that which maintains them when all of the facts and evidence prove the falseness of the religion.
    We have sufficient enough evidence about Smith to know that the basis for his spiritual experiences came out of the folk magic occult that he and his family practiced. Among these things were scrying with a seer stone and the use of second sight vision to conjure up spiritual visitors and other things. We also know he was a very gifted story teller and could entertain his family for hours with his creative tales.
    Some people become captivated with Smith’s tale of angels and golden plates and other manifested spiritual beings including apostles and even a god himself and a spirit calling himself Jesus. It’s a form of spiritual seduction and once accepted it’s a tough escape.
    The subconscious mind doesn’t know the difference between a real event and one that’s vividly imagined. The emotions and the soul in combination provide a very believable form of “spiritual” experience. This, coupled with a little help from the dark side when needed, will keep a Mormon entertained, feeling good and convinced they’ve found the real deal. It’s like dope!

  28. liv4jc says:

    Sorry for becoming rational, but without evidence of the BoM plates ever even existing, wouldn’t it first be more profitable to prove that they could have existed before we delve into what they were made of? It seems a pretty easy thing to prove since Mormon 6:6 tells us the following:

    And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. (Mormon 6:6)

    The LDS church should begin excavation at the hill Cumorah immediately to find the other records that were hidden by Mormon. If Mormon was commanded by God to hide them so that the Lamanites would not destroy them, then it makes sense that God wanted them to be preserved so that they could prove his profit Joseph Smith was telling the truth about having the golden plates. We could learn all about the Nephites and Lamanites from those other secular plates! I think its in Mormon 8 that Moroni says that the plates will be taken away so that no one can profit from them? Doesn’t that hint that they were made of gold? While they’re at it they will no doubt find evidence of the great battle that took place right before Moroni hid the plates up in the stone box. They would probably also find evidence of the great battle that took place in Ether chapter 15 where two million men died in battle at the same place.

    Things that make you go, “Hmmmmmmm…”

  29. liv4jc says:

    I have no doubt that and LDS poster will reply and tell me how naive I am for offering such a simple solution….that I obviously haven’t taken the time to fully study the truth about the Mormon plates….or that I have not sought hard enough for the spiritual proof that the BoM is true.

    All I want is a little taste of physical evidence. Is that too much to ask?

  30. Rick B says:

    Here is a thought? Why is it God saw fit to leave us evidence for the Bible with the dead sea scrolls, But not with the “Golden” Plates of Mormonism? Rick b

  31. Janet says:

    No one has addressed the issues I brought up.

    1). is the McKeever plates solid metal?
    2). Did not the Brass Plates have leaves that where pounded into thin sheets and would allow for air space in-between?

    Will I just get deflecton or can someone step up and hit a home run?

  32. liv4jc says:

    Is Bigfoot half human, half ape, or a different species all together? Based upon impressions taken from Bigfoot tracks, how much does a Bigfoot weigh? Now, is that after the Bigfoot has just come out of the water, when it is dry, or after it has shed its winter coat? Given the size of the tracks, how tall is a Bigfoot? How about focusing on whether or not anyone has any concrete evidence that Bigfoot even exists before we start figuring out how much a Bigfoot would weigh?

    I understand that we have a few eyewitness accounts about the size, shape, and description of the plates, but there is actually more supporting physical and circumstantial evidence for Bigfoot than there is for the Book of Mormon plates and the Book of Mormon culture existing anywhere in North America.

    How about we start with physical evidence and go from there? Can anyone produce any plates (as seemed to be the custom for recording history in the Nephite culture) from any place in North America? Well, besides the Kinderhook plates. For that matter, can anyone produce any literature from tribes that are native to the upstate New York area?

    How can anyone hit a home run without a baseball field to play on and a baseball bat and baseball to play with? It’s nothing more than conjecture.

    How deep was the rabbit hole Alice fell down?

  33. mobaby says:

    Let’s all head to the display in Salt Lake City (or is it at the Hill Cumorah – I forget) where the plates are kept under bullet proof glass and examine them. I am sure the museum will let some researchers take them out for a bit just to see what they are composed of.

    There’s just one problem with this simple solution, the plates are nowhere to be found. So we are left to wild speculation that maybe the “gold plates” as Joseph Smith claimed God described them were really made of some other metal.

    There is one definitive thing we can know about Mormonism – there are no ancient documents or archeological evidence confirming anything. So all we have is the word of Joseph Smith that they were gold, and the words of the Book of Mormon which Joseph produced that they were gold, we have no other evidence to go on. We have to go on the word of Joseph Smith – how honest was he with other dealings in his life? So was Joseph being honest when he said they were gold (and he was extremely strong to run around with all that weight) – or was he making it up as he went along?

    I think making the gold plates of the BOM disappear was one of the easiest things that Joseph Smith ever participated in.

  34. falcon says:

    liv and mo
    If I had some kind of an award I’d hand it out to you two guys at this juncture. Not that all of the rest of the Christians haven’t done yoemen’s work here but you two drew it all together. The bottom line is that for the TBM crowd there isn’t enough evidence in the whole world to convince them of the falsity of Mormonism. We could paper the whole inside of their favorite temple with the information and it would either not be enough, or the wrong kind or the fact that daylight savings time starts tonight and we have to turn our clocks forward an hour. The last one because if someone is resistant to the truth any excuse will suffice!
    The evidence proving Mormonism false is only effective for the Mormon who starts to see the cracks in the Mormon belief system and history.
    That’s why it’s a psychological as well as a spiritual issue with the hardcore bunch. I’ve seen the Mormon game way too often when it comes to the TBM rejection of the clear evidence against Mormonism to understand what’s up with that.
    I remember Arthur S. the exMormon who use to post here about a year ago. Arthur used to testify to the experience of going down on his knees a Mormon and raising up a born again Christian. Who can explain that without looking at John 6:44-45. That’s the only answer I can give. So it’s not about the evidence against Mormonism, it’s about the individual Mormon for whom the Father through the Holy Spirit leads to Jesus; and rejecting the false god of Mormonism, being born again by the Spirit of God into a newness of life.

  35. Janet says:

    Well so far guest, visitors, and lurkers we note complete deflection to a interesting issue I just brought up. I was serious about debating important issues that got me nothing more then Big Foot, Alice, some thing about no archeological evidence.

    This makes McKeevers prop nothing more then a guess/estimate.
    Tumbaga ranges from 97 percent gold to 97 percent copper with traces of up to 18 percent of other metals, impurities, or silver.
    I can understand why anyone would call them the Gold Plates even as described in the BOM. Joseph described the plates as having the “appearance of gold.” What can we deduct from this evidence that would refute McKeevers claims, well one could easily see that the BOM was most likely the product of Tumbaga, which would consist of 8 and 12 carat gold, weighing most likely between 53 and 86 pounds.

    Did Joseph Smith get it right, yep a home run when he claimed the BOM was engraven upon metal plates, and that the Nephites could not have picked a better material which had the appearance of gold.

    Since I didn’t get much response to my question, I leave this for our guest and visitors to see that there are two sides to every criticism and one must not accept just any old prop such as a 200 pound representation of the BOM that really is nothing more then a red-herring.

  36. falcon says:

    The Mormon poster doesn’t get the fact that she’s Alice and has fallen down the Mormon rabbit hole. There were no golden plates so what they weighed is immaterial. I would suggest that she get a magic stone, head out to up state New York and see if she can see the golden plates buried in the ground. There are any number of TBMs that will help with the excavation.
    Tedium is setting in and I’m going to be robbed of an hours sleep tonight. Back tomorrow.

  37. mobaby says:

    Another interesting note – Joseph Smith when he “translated” did not even have the supposed plates with him according to the testimony of those who were with him. He would peer into his hat and dictate the words to Oliver Cowdery. There is no mention of anyone ever seeing Joseph translating any plates with the plates on the table in front of him (as is seen in the popular Mormon painting). So really the plates were immaterial to the “translation” process, literally – the were immaterial. Just as they are today. Until someone can produce a gold plate of some sort arguing about this is silly.

    When do gold plates become tumbaga plates? When they weigh too much.

    When do horses become tapir? When there aren’t any horses.

    When do Native American Indians cease to be descendants of ancient Israelites? When the DNA and culture tell a different story.

  38. grindael says:

    The plates were first described as GOLD, and it wasn’t for nothing that the term ‘gold bible’ was a common expression bandied about to describe the BOM.

    If the plates were solid metal Janet, you wouldn’t be able to turn them like the pages of a book now, would you? But the leaves themselves were claimed to be ‘solid’ metal, and ‘thin’ but like everything else coming from Smith, no one is exactly sure of anything. Two thirds of them were ‘sealed together’ & was that part solid? Who knows? Perhaps Monson could weigh in here? Oh yeah, he is so far out of touch, he couldn’t be bothered with something as trivial as this now, could he? But here is some info on the plates, one of the greatest collections of fantasy I have ever posted, & if you believe this collection of fiction I have some swamp land I can sell you for a real, real, real low price:

    Smith’s description:

    “These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, &not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, & bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed” (History of the Church 4:53)

    Emma, who never saw the plates (doesn’t mean Smith did not TELL her they were GOLD), felt them & moved them about:

    The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. (Emma Smith – Last Testimony of Emma Smith 1879 Q&A between Emma and Joseph Smith III, The Saints’ Herald 26 (Oct 1879)

  39. grindael says:

    Emma claimed to have never snuck a peek at them, being the ‘good wife’ and completely duped by her adulterous husband. Hurray for Emma! But Emma had a vested interest in keeping the BOM myth alive, her son was prophet of the RLDS Church, and they had to have some claim to legitimacy, and the BOM was it.

    Smith’s mother, who said she had “seen and handled” the plates, is quoted as saying they were “eight inches [20 cm] long, and six [15 cm] wide…all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate”. (Casawall, Henry, ed., The City of the Mormons; or, Three Days at Nauvoo, in 1842, London: J.G.F. & J. Rivington, 1842.)

    But then, Young claimed her accounts were not to be trusted, (only the ones they approved) so who knows?

    If the plates were only about six inches wide, and two thirds of them were sealed, then how many ‘leaves’ were there with ‘caractors’ on them? How many caractors were there, and if one caractor is one word, that would be a hell of a lotttt of ‘caractors’. These fables make no sense on so many levels. But then, Smith translated the plates when they were hidden in the woods, so why did he even need them? And he used his peep-stone, so why did he need the ‘spectacles’?
    Joseph’s brother William Smith, who said he felt the plates inside a pillow case in 1827, said in 1884 that he understood the plates to be “a mixture of gold and copper…much heavier than stone, and very much heavier than wood”. (“The Old Soldier’s Testimony”, The Saints’ Herald 34 (39): 643–644).

    If the plates were ‘much heavier than stone, a stone that big would be pretty hard to lug around. And Smith had a bum leg from his childhood to boot. Then we have old Martin Harris, who said he had:

    “hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds [18–23 kg]” (Mormonism, No. II, Tiffany’s Monthly 5:163-70)

    But since Harris said he only saw them with a spiritual eye,

  40. grindael says:

    it’s anyone’s guess if he actually hefted them or only did so in some kind of visionary state. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris:

    “Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?” According to Gilbert, Harris “looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.” (John H. Gilbert, “Memorandum,” 8 September 1892, in EMD, 2: 548.)

    So how much do ‘spiritual plates’ weigh, anyway? Brigham Young told this whopper that he says was related to him by Cowdery and others:

    Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did.

    Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the GOLD plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: ‘This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.’ (quoted often, look it up)

    But Young called them GOLD plates

  41. grindael says:

    & we all know HE knows exactly what he is talking about, now don’t we?

    Even the Intro to the BOM says:

    Their words, written on GOLD plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The Bottom line is this. Bill McKeever’s version isn’t any more ‘far out’ than the ones the Mormons claim. Like everything else, the stories are convoluted, confusing, dissimilar, & so far fetched that you can only believe it using this formula that B.H. Roberts & the Suits in SLC advocate today:

    “This [power of the Holy Ghost] must ever be the chief source of evidence for the truth of the Book of Mormon. All other evidence is secondary to this, the primary and infallible. No arrangement of evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made, can ever take its place.” (B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, 3 vols, 2:vi-vii.)

    Can anyone say PLA-CEE-BO? Also, I never got an answer from Janet (imagine that) even though I asked her why this is called ‘Perfect Knowledge’ three or four times. How is it PERFECT KNOWLEDGE? If it is what Roberts describes above, than anyone who received a testimony of the BOM that way, and leaves the Church would be a Son Of Perdition, right? They would ‘know’ with certainty, right? PERFECT knowledge?

    Gee, talk to the followers of Koresh, Jim Jones, Manson, Hitler, they all had PERFECT knowledge too, didn’t they? They had that ‘feeling’ they were right, didn’t they? How is the Mormon’s ‘feeling’ different? What is PERFECT about it? How about this Janet: ask God if the plates were tumbaga, and if you get a good “feeling”, you can say with certainty that you are right, and Bill is wrong. If it works for the BOM question, it should work for the gold plates question, right? That would be PERFECT KNOWLEDGE now, wouldn’t it, & then you could finally be right, (about something.)

  42. Rick B says:

    Janet, you say we cannot answer your questions so this proves the BoM to be true. Thats a stupid way of thinking.

    First, the best thing would be is for Bill to speak for himself, we cannot speak on his behalf.

    Second, The BoM said they were Gold plates, Should I take the BoM at it’s word or assume it was lying?

    Third, What the plates are made of or not made of is really not a salvation issue.

    fourth, Like everyone hear has said, The “Golden” Plates are simply not around for us to see or handle, Yet the dead sea scrolls are around for us to look over. As a matter of fact, I live in St Paul MN and at the science museum, they are having the dead sea scrolls on exhibit. I guess the LDS will never have a “Golden” Plates exhibit.

    So why do you keep harping on us saying we cannot answer your question when we cannot speak for Bill and then their is no evidence the plates even existed, And if the BoM is taken seriously it says they were Gold, so that alone should settle it, But I guess you will ignore what I said and toss your own smoke and mirrors up to deflect the truth. Rick b

  43. Janet says:

    Well there you go all you visitors, guest and lurkers, another Alice joke, something about horses become tapir, and my favorite one,
    “Thats a stupid way of thinking” ad hominem attack. Must be that they really can’t do much more then circumvent any intellectual discourse for fear and or embarrassment.

    grindael, sorry I missed your question, but generally I don’t really even read them. If you could possibly state what you need to say in a more concise and abbreviated version, in other words cut to the chase, you might be more interesting and viable.

    As for McKeever, I would love for him to comment on his prop, and explain it more accurately for me.


  44. Rick B says:

    Janet said sorry I missed your question, but generally I don’t really even read them.

    Why are you here if you dont even read what is said to you? If you ignore what is said how can we take you serious. Why should we bother. You might not like it, but your questions were answered. I said, the BoM says the plates were made of gold, I showed you as did other where it states that, If you ignore it then your beyond help.

    Then as I said and answered your question, if the BoM states the plates are Gold, then either the BoM is true and we can believe it, so this would make the weight issue accurate, or we dont believe the BoM and assume it was wrong, then the weight issue is open for debate, but then since the plates do not exist for us to handle how can we honestly debate this issue? O-yea, you will ignore what I said, since you even said you ignore us, so why am I talking to you? Rick b

  45. grindael says:

    Cut to the chase? Then I would be guilty of snippeting, wouldn’t I, and you would find some other reason not to answer. You just don’t know what it is, why you quoted it, or what it means.


  46. grindael says:

    Bill has already answered and expounded on this issue. In fact, he quotes the OFFICIAL Church News which says:

    As recently as May 15, 1999, the LDS Church News ran an article entitled “Hands-on opportunity.” Speaking of Joseph Smith, it read, “He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit.”

    You can read all about it right here Janet:

    Gee, I wonder where Bill got the idea the plates might be solid gold? Right from the Mormons.

  47. bfwjr says:

    Thank you for sharing your far fetched philosophy with us. I think it goes a long way in explaining Mormonism to our readers here. To the careful reader, I think you have explained your concept of “perfect knowledge”.

  48. Rick B says:

    Sadly Janet,
    when you stand before God and here your belief was based upon lies and you followed a false prophet and you hear from God, Depart from me, I never knew you, you cannot say, But no one ever told me. You can say, they told me but I choose not to listen and did not want to hear. Where do I get this Idea from? You. Same with the golden plates, Bill got the Idea from Joseph Smith. Rick b

  49. Janet says:

    “The article debunks the notion that the plates could have been made of pure gold since “pure gold would be too soft to make useful plates.” However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were “filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.” Bill McKeever.

    Amazing, this argument does not hold up since if one read the BOM they would have known Mormon had abridged all existing records into one book. Also the Jeredite plates were in a different language and had to be translated, that would eliminate these plates being a part of the plates Mormon put into his abridged works.

    Thank you bfwjr for you condescending remarks.

    grindael, your sarcasm is noted and likely it is noted also by any guest or visitors.

    Rick B, I’m here to defend and show others (guest and visitors) that trusting in the criticisms and your talking points regarding historical truth are just speculation and conjecture. What I would ask any guest is to read the BOM and pray over it. I find it amazing you attack the means, yet can’t prove the doctrine in the BOM false.


  50. falcon says:

    This entire discussion reveals why it is so frustrating interacting with a Mormon. It seems we never learn. It’s a continual chase around the proverbial mulberry bush. There’s never enough information, or it’s the wrong kind, or the meaning is totally different than the obvious. And at the end of the day you feel like a fool having invested any time in the discussion at all.
    Andy Watson spent months on a weekly basis with some JWs reasoning with them from the Scriptures, walking them step-by-step through the JW literature, pointing out specifically the historical documentation proving their religion was false and at the end of the day…zero. No apparent impact. When faced with the fact that the JW prophecies had not come to pass and were indeed false, the JWs simply dismissed it with a wave of the hand and declared, “We have more light now.”
    The bottom line is that if someone has a desire to believe something, they will believe it no matter the evidence against their (beliefs). Any explanation will do. It’s brainlock!
    So remember my friends, we write for the lurkers. The Mormons who post here are a foil.

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