It has been said that the purpose of LDS temples is to make men into Gods. Many Mormons dispute this, complaining about the insensitive way this sacred information is presented. Whether such a statement seems sensationalized or not, the question is: Is it true?
In the October 2009 Ensign LDS Apostle Robert D. Hales wrote about the “Blessings of the Temple.” Some excerpts from the article:
“The temple endowment blessings are as essential for each of us as was our baptism…
“The temple’s saving ordinances are essential to–and even the central focus of–the eternal plan of happiness…
“The primary purpose of the temple is to provide the ordinances necessary for our exaltation in the celestial kingdom…
“…know the importance of the saving temple ordinances and temple covenants and their necessity in achieving eternal goals…
“The temple is a sacred edifice, a holy place, where essential saving ceremonies and ordinances are performed to prepare us for exaltation…
“Our objective is…to be worthy to stand and live in the presence of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, for all eternity–to achieve what is called eternal life.” (Ensign, October 2009, 46-49).
In Mormonism then, temples and the covenants and ordinances accomplished therein, are essential, necessary, and the central focus of God’s plan for saving people and preparing them to achieve their eternal goal of exaltation (aka eternal life). This is, in fact, the primary purpose of LDS temples.
Neither of the official LDS websites (lds.org and mormon.org) include a glossary entry for the term “exaltation,” but lds.org directs inquiries to the section on “eternal life.” Though a bit ambiguous, the definition reads in part,
“Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4).”
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a little more informative:
“To Latter-day Saints, exaltation is a state that persons can attain in becoming like God–salvation in the ultimate sense (D&C 132:17)…This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving the power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection (TPJS, pp. 300-301; D&C 132:19).” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “Exaltation”)
The “Eternal Life” entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism speaks more about how to achieve it than what it is, but the reader is directed to the entry titled “Godhood” for more information. That says in part,
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals become gods (cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives…
“…while the faithful worship only one God in spirit and in truth, there exist other beings who have attained the necessary intelligence and righteousness to qualify for the title ‘god.’ Jesus Christ is a god and is a separate personage, distinct from God the Father…
“Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “Godhood”)
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie provided a concise and articulate explanation of exaltation:
“Celestial marriage is the gate to exaltation, and exaltation consists in the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life which God lives…they have spirit children in the resurrection, in relation to which offspring they stand in the same position that God our Father stands to us. They inherit in due course the fulness of the glory of the Father, meaning that they have all power in heaven and on earth. (D.&C. 76:50-60; 93:1-40.) ‘Then shall they be gods,…'” (Mormon Doctrine, “Exaltation,” 257)
If, as LDS Apostle Hales said, the primary purpose of the temple is to provide the ordinances necessary for our exaltation; and if, as LDS Apostle McConkie has said, exaltation is procreating spirit children in the resurrection to whom we are then Gods; then it seems entirely reasonable to conclude, though perhaps a bit simplistically, the purpose of LDS temples is to make men into Gods.
———————-
Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
———————-
This overlap of terms is also reflected in the testimony of some of the witnesses to Smith’s dictation process. However, according to David Whitmer, the entire Book of Mormon text we have today came through Smith’s seer stone and not through the Nephite interpreters. In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints’ Herald, asked Whitmer if Smith had used his “Peep stone” to do the translation. Whitmer replied:
These comments from David Whitmer regarding the loss of the “Interpreters” and Joseph’s subsequent use of his stone, help clarify some confusion regarding what exactly Smith used to produce the Book of Mormon. When Smith first announced the discovery of gold plates with strange engravings, he also claimed there were special spectacles called “Interpreters” that were with the plates. Joseph said these were to help in the translation process. However, after Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon translation that Smith loaned to him, Smith claimed that the angel took back both the
plates and the Interpreters as punishment to Joseph. He would later get back the gold plates, but was told he would not receive the Interpreters, but instead was allowed to use his seer stone to produce all of the Book of Mormon we have today. As time went on, Smith and others would refer to the seer stone both as “Interpreters” and as the “Urim and Thummim.” These ‘spectacles’ were nothing like the Urim & Thummim of the Bible.
Doctrine and Covenants 10:1
It should be noted that the mention of the Urim and Thummim in Doctrine and Covenants 10:1, dated “summer of 1828,” was written back into this revelation at a later date.[IMAGINE THAT!] In its original form as Chapter IX of the 1833 Book of Commandments, the revelation makes no mention of the Urim and Thummim.
The mention of Urim and Thummim in what is now designated D&C 10:1 first appears in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Commandments, where it is found as Section XXXVIII. http://www.irr.org/MIT/divination.html
“I’d have to say, unless you or someone can show otherwise, the temple is to make men into Gods, as a laboratory to put into practice the theories leaned elsewhere.”
Temple is like a University, to get a higher education. Learning to become a God is most likely not going to happen on this earth, I speak for Janet and not some doctrine of the Church. I can’t imagine that knowing what God knows can ever even begin to be taught in the Temple, but at least we can learn what we need to do to be exalted. The objective is to strive for purity and righteousness and to become one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. Latter-day Saints are taught that they can become kings and queens in God’s kingdom through performing ordinances such as the endowment, and by doing their best to be faithful to the covenants that the ordinances represent. Celestial marriage, or sealing, is also part of the requirement for being exalted.
Janet
“The Book of Abraham informs us that Abraham “had the Urim and Thummim,” by means of which he “saw the stars.” “And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof” (Abraham 3:1-4).” John A. Tvedtnes
The Talmud supports the idea that Abraham possessed a miraculous stone. “R. Eliezer the Modiite said that Abraham possessed a power of reading the stars for which he was much sought after by the potentates of East and West. R. Simeon b. Yohai said: Abraham had a precious stone hung round his neck which brought immediate healing to any sick person who looked on it, and when Abraham our father departed from this world, the Holy One, blessed be He, suspended it from the orb of the sun” (TB Baba Bathra 16b).
Jewish tradition holds that Abraham possessed glowing gems and pearls,5 reminding us that ancient texts also describe the Urim and Thummim as glowing stones. Louis Ginzberg, ed., Legends of the Jews (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1937), 1:298, 5:265 n. 312.
He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. . . . Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book. (Joseph Smith—History [JS—H] 1:34–35)
Janet
Janet wrote
I note Janet’s honesty in acknowledging her opinion, but it’s pure gnosticism.
Also
Where did the “…and queens…” come from? Certainly not Brigham Young, who taught
(Journal of Discourses, 11:269, 1866).
I don’t know who has been telling you what, but according to Brigham Young you, as a female, are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation.
…and
…or, more likely, it’s a fabrication invented by Smith and Young so that they could get round the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” thing with their colleagues’ wives. Some of Smith’s “wives” were simultaneously married to other living men. If that’s not the definition of adultery, I don’t know what is.
But wait! We can go into the Temple and perform a secret ceremony that no-one is allowed to know about, that legitimizes the sin.
BTW, as far as the “sacred” = “secret” agenda goes, I’m with Paul on this
Eph 5:12-14
Mormons & Masonry (this is how men become gods?)
1. Both the Masons and the Mormons have what is called “the five points of fellowship.”
MORMONS: The five points of fellowship are given by putting the inside of the right foot to the inside of the Lord’s, the inside of your knee to his, laying your breast close to his, your left hands on each other’s backs, and each one putting his mouth to the other’s ear, in which position the Lord whispers:
Lord—”This is the sign of the token: “Health to the navel, marrow in the bones, (Temple Mormonism, p.22)
MASONS: He (the candidate) is raised on what is called the five points of fellowship … This is done by putting the inside of your right foot to the inside of the right foot of the person to whom you are going to give the word, the inside of your knee to his, laying your right breast against his, your left hands on the back of each other, and your mouths to each other’s right ear (in which position alone you are permitted to give the word), and whisper the word Mahhah-bone … He is also told that Mahhah-bone signifies marrow in the bone (Freemasonry Exposed, pp.84-85).
2. When the candidate receives “The First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood” he makes a promise similar to the oath taken in the “First Degree” of the Masonic ritual.
MORMONS: … we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots (Temple Mormonism, p.18).
MASONS: … I will … never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry … binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots…. (Freemasonry Exposed, pp.21-22).
3. In both ceremonies the thumb is drawn across the throat to show the penalty.
4. Those who receive the “First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood” give a grip that is similar to that used by the Masons in the “First Degree” of their ritual.
5. Some of the wording concerning the “grip” is similar.
MORMONS:
(. . . Peter now takes Adam by the right hand and asks:)
Peter—”What is that?”
Adam—”The first token of the Aaronic Priesthood.”
Peter—”Has it a name?”
Adam—”It has.”
Peter—”Will you give it to me?”
Adam—”I can not, for it is connected with my new name, but this is the sign” (Temple Mormonism, p.20).
MASONS:
The Master and candidate holding each other by the grip, as before described, the Master says, “What is this?”
Ans. “A grip.”
“A grip of what?”
Ans. “The grip of an Entered Apprentice Mason.”
“Has it a name?”
Ans. “It has.”
“Will you give it to me?”
Ans. “I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it.” (Freemasonry Exposed, pp.23-24).
6. The oath of the “Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood” is similar to that taken in the second degree of Masonry.
MORMONS: We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field (Temple Mormonism, p.20).
MASONS: I…. most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear…. that I will not give the degree of a Fellow Craft Mason to any one of an inferior degree, nor to any other being in the known world…. binding myself under no less penalty than to have my left breast torn open and my heart and vitals taken from thence … to become a prey to the wild beasts of the field, and vulture of the air … (Freemasonry Exposed, p.52).
7. Both have a similar sign.
MORMONS: The sign is made by placing the left arm on the square at the level of the shoulder, placing the right hand across the chest with the thumb extended and then drawing it rapidly from left to right and dropping it to the side (Temple Mormonism, p.20).
MASONS: The sign is given by drawing your right hand flat, with the palm of it next to your breast, across your breast from the left to the right side with some quickness, and dropping it down by your side … (Freemasonry Exposed, p.53).
8. Both have a similar grip.
9. In both cases a “name” is used.
10. The promise made when receiving the “First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood” resembles the oath given by the Masons in the third or “Master Mason’s Degree.”
11. The sign of the penalty is similar in both cases.
12. In both cases a “name” is used.
13. The conversation at the “veil” in the temple ceremony is very similar to that of the “Fellow Craft Mason” when he is questioned concerning the “grip.”
MORMONS:
Lord—”What is this?”
Endowee—”The second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood—The Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.”
Lord—”Has it a name?”
Endowee—”It has.”
Lord—”Will you give it to me?”
Endowee—”I can not for I have not yet received it.” (Temple Mormonism, p.22)
MASONS:
… “What is this?”
Ans. “A grip.”
“A grip of what?”
Ans. “The grip of a Fellow Craft Mason.”
“Has it a name?”
Ans. “It has.”
“Will you give it to me?”
Ans. “I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it.” (Freemasonry Exposed, p.54).
14. Both the Masons and the Mormons have a vow regarding “chastity.”
15. The grip known as “The Sign of the Nail” seems to be similar to one given by Masons in one of their higher degrees.
16. The “Oath of Vengeance” which used to be found in the Mormon temple ceremony resembles an oath in one of the higher degrees of Masonry.
17. Both Mormons and Masons change clothing before going through their rituals.
18. Both Mormons and Masons use an apron.
19. In one of the higher degrees the Masons anoint the candidate. This is somewhat similar to the anointing ceremony in the Mormon temple ritual.
20. Both Mormons and Masons give what they call a “new name” to the candidate.
21. In the Mormon temple ceremony the candidate cannot pass through the veil until he has given certain signs and words. In the Royal Arch Degree the Masons use veils. The “Principal Soujourner” cannot enter the Third Veil except “By the words, sign, and word of exhortation of the Master of the Second Veil” (Richardson’s Monitor of Free-Masonry, pp.76-77).
22. In the Mormon temple ceremony a man represents Adam.
The Masons also have a man who personates Adam in the degree of “Knight of the Sun.”
23. In the Mormon temple ceremony a man represents God. In the Mason’s Royal Arch Degree a man “personates the Deity.”
24. Both the Mormons and the Masons consider the square and the compass to be extremely important. The marks of the square and the compass appear on the Mormon temple garments and on the veil.
MORMONS: We now have the veil explained to us. We are told that it represents the veil of the temple. The marks are the same as those on the garments—the compass on the left and the square on the right side (Temple Mormonism, p.22).
MASONS: “… the three great lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compass … the Square, to square our actions, and the Compass to keep us in due bounds with all mankind … (Freemasonry Exposed, pp.22-23).
Even a Mormon writer, E. Cecil McGavin, is willing to admit that “Mormon temple clothing contain certain marks of the priesthood, including the square and compass” (Mormonism and Masonry, p.72).
25. In the Masonic ritual the point of the compass is pressed against the left breast of the candidate. The Mormon temple garment has the mark of the compass on the left breast.
MORMONS: “The marks are the same as those on the garments—the compass on the left … (Temple Mormonism, p.22).
MASONS: “The candidate then enters, the Senior Deacon at the same time pressing his naked left breast with the point of the compass … (Freemasonry Exposed, p.19).
26. The angle of the square is pressed against the right breast in the Masonic ritual. The mark of the square appears on the right breast of the Mormon temple garment.
MORMONS: ” … the square on the right side …” (Temple Mormonism, p.22).
MASONS: “As he enters, the angle of the square is pressed hard against his naked right breast … ” (Freemasonry Exposed, p.50).
27. A mallet is used by both the Masons and the Mormons in their ceremonies. Other parallels between the Mormon temple ceremony and the Masonic ritual could be shown, but these should be sufficient to demonstrate to the reader that Joseph Smith STOLE from the Masons when he established the endowment ceremony.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech22b.htm#Masonic Ritual in the Temple Ceremony
The account of the Urim & Thummim in the HC was written WELL AFTER 1833. There is NOT ONE account of it BEFORE that time, when W.W.Phelps made his ‘speculation. (except where Smith deceptively ‘inserted’ and it into a revelation ‘after the fact’.
The Jewish (Abraham) accounts are folklore (not scriptural, except in Smith’s fertile imagination). But keep trying Janet, someday, you might get something right.
Good job grindael.
I like the way you leave the Mormon posters sputtering and grasping for outlandish explanations.
I went by a Mormon temple and above the entrance was an inscription which read something like: “Dedicated to our God and His Holiness”.
So my question of course is, “Who is your God that you are doing all of the Masonic rituals for/to?” Well we know who the Mormon god is. A man who through doing works of righteousness and Masonic temple rituals himself, morphed into a god. So did the first Mormon god do Masonic handshakes and all other such manner of “deeply spiritual and sacred” signs? Well Mormons are a little cloudy on the first cause and who the first Mormon god is. We always ask, “Why don’t Mormons just worship the first Mormon god?” Well that’s an aside and he’s probably so far along progressing to deeper and higher Masonic truths that he can’t mess with earthly mortals.
So Mormons waste their time doing secret handshakes and other bizarre rituals in the hope that they’ll get to become gods. Why don’t they just join the Masons? They’d be way further ahead and they could manufacture their own supreme being in this organization also.
There are many points along the line where a Mormon can say, “Enough, I’m out of here.” We know that most do do this (at some point). I would guess that for any number of these folks, the temple rituals are/were such a turn-off that they walk. We know that these supposed sacred ancient rituals have been changed as a result of what they are becomes well known. So I guess the Mormon god says, “Oh you find my sacred rituals repulsive? That’s fine, I’ll change them for you. And BTW men don’t have to have numerous wives any more in order reach the highest level of the Celestial kingdom. That seems to upset the government and the rest of the country. Oh, and blacks carrying the mark of Cain, they can be priests now because of the blatant racism it suggests.”
I’d think that any one of these things would at least suggest to the faithful Mormon that maybe this religion is a manufactured product of the rather warped mind of Joseph Smith. But never underestimate the desire of some to believe something that is patently false.
John 6:44
“shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret”
I would think that is a huge disclaimer, but what about the righteous? Secrets or Sacred.
“I don’t know who has been telling you what, but according to Brigham Young you, as a female, are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation.”
Check your Punctuation. Who is Brigham Young you?
Janet
To our LDS guests,
I realize that to many LDS this topic is of a
sensative nature, and is considered to be off-
limits in a dialogue on the LDS faith. Yet, if
it is said to be a part of the Gospel then as
such it would be important to discuss it.
Following are my musings on the Mormon temple.
It all starts with an appointment with a man who
is termed a judge ( Bishop= “a judge in Israel”)
for an imtimate interview.If successful, this
judge recommends you to be eligible to receive
permission to enter your Heavenly Father’s house.
There you will learn deep spiritual truths, and
also thru a ritual be given sacred secret hand
shakes, grips, and code words as well as the
penalties for divulging these to others even your
family members. These truths are to help enable
you, as a sin-prone creature to ascend upwards to
become worshipped as an Almighty God (compare Rev
4:8).
All this is said to be an essential part of the
Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to end time
(latter-day) prophets, Matt.24:11,24 ; Gal.1:8-9.
It seems that God’s arrangement in the O.T. was
that it’s rituals and symbols were all prepatory
to the coming of Jesus.They were all imperfect,
the perfect now has come(Jesus).
The N.T. records the Gospel of the Lord Jesus.
In this Gospel there is no need for a man-made
Temple, Matt.12:6, 1Cor.6:19.
No need to pass an interview by a judge ( who may
privately be guility of failing an interview
himself).
The true Gospel is more open and plain, Rom.10:9-13 ; Phil.3:9 ; Heb.9:12 with 10:19-20
Chuckle 🙂 “Legends of the Jews is folklore?”
The late scholar Louis Ginzberg believed that Jewish legend was both earlier and greater than what was represented in the Talmud and midrashic collections—the primary Rabbinic sources. And so he scoured Jewish, Christian, Islamic, and Oriental sources to rediscover the fine threads of Jewish legend. The result was a masterpiece: a single, coherent collection of legends that follows the biblical narrative, accompanied by detailed notes that reveal a complex subtext of often intersecting and multi-layered levels of influence, borrowed notions, and interpretive commentaries.
Turn to Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews to learn about the postbiblical understanding of a biblical episode, or to discover the source for biblical legends that cannot be traced directly to the Bible. It is also a place to find the answers to such questions as: On what day was Abraham born? What was Moses’ physical appearance? Or what was the name of Potiphar’s wife?
Legends of the Jews has long been recognized as one of the great classics of modern Jewish literature. This edition features an introduction by David Stern, Professor of Postbiblical and Medieval Hebrew Literature, and Director of the Jewish Studies Program at the University of Pennsylvania.
Janet
I’ve known some guys that were in the Masonic Lodge program. Some were really in to it and others very much on the periphery. I would guess it’s the same with Mormons. We know that two-thirds of those on the Mormon membership rolls are inactive. So of those who are left, how many are doing the temple rituals on any sort of a regular basis? I would guess that there aren’t a third of those who are left that are really in to it. So it obviously is not a very attractive feature of the religion.
Mormon temples are a nice profit center for Mormonism. That’s why they were building what became known as the McMormon temples or the McTemples. Pretty much a franchise approach to trying to get more folks into doing the Masonic rituals and let loose of some $$$$$. Because to get into the temple program, the Mormon has to come-up to speed with the membership dues which amounts to 10% of their income. If they don’t come up with the cash, they aren’t going to get into do the rituals in order to become a god. A Mormon thus pays their way into the Celestial kingdom. Without the money changers getting their temple fee, no godhood!
Mormons have a false god that they perform fraternity type rituals for in the hope that they’ll move through becoming pledge master or grand wizard or whatever in order to become one of the minigods. Few in Mormonism however are on this fast track in the system; most are opting out.
Having rejected God and His free gift of eternal life, Mormons are stuck with the hopeless task of becoming their own gods.
John 6:44
To the chuckler:
There is a reason why it’s called LEGENDS…
“An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
Folklore:
“The traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally…”
As of 2006, the oldest complete readable manuscript of the Haggadah is found in a prayer book compiled by Saadia Gaon in the tenth century.
Scripture:
“a sacred, solemn, or authoritative book or piece of writing”
Legends of the Jews is Oral traditions (folklore) handed down. They are NOT scripture. Christians believe in the BIBLE. Mormons believe it ‘as far as it is translated correctly’. No wonder this Mormon poster is turning to jewish folklore to find answers. Try the Bible, it is all you need.
But given the ‘scripture’ [or fairytales] coming from smith, I would not be surprised that some Mormons are ignorant of this fact.
As far as ‘sacredness’ is concerned, smith obviously did not hold what he learned from the Mason’s with any respect, since he stole their teachings and perverted them into his endowment, A Modern day ‘secret combination’ decried by your own BOM.
I have been lurking on this site for some time. But think I have only made one post early on. The reason for that is that I am a follower of the Messianic movement, which receives it’s own criticism from the “Christian” community. However, I can’t help but point out a few things from a slightly different perspective on this topic. The Torah(first 5 books of the Bible) detail down to the most minute detail how the tabernacle and then the temple are to be built, what is to be in them, what the priest is to wear and when and where he is supposed to go within the temple as well as what he is to do. The reason for this is because it is built after the pattern of the heavenly temple(singular), there is only one temple!
Ex25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].
There was a pre-existing pattern for the Tabernacle, it was the Heavenly temple. Then the Temple was to be made after the pattern of the Tabernacle. The Temple was a pattern of the Heavenly Temple which we will see again, all identical in detail and patterned after one another. So when the LDS come in and say that their temple is that of Solomon’s Temple, they are committing the worst kind of Blasphemy I have ever seen! In the Tanakh(the Old Testament) people are struck dead on the spot for placing themselves in the priesthood position and trying to emulate the priests duties. This is serious stuff! the Mormon’s have perverted the Temple and it’s ceremonies, tried to say that they are the same as God’s Temple and placed themselves in the priestly seat to the point of claiming godhood!
I would urge all LDS folks to go back to Exodus and Leviticus and read through the detailed description of the Temple and the Priesthood. God may have had sacred areas (the Holy of Holies) that the Priest could only enter, but what went on in them was never a secret, it was spelled out in the Torah for all to see.
(continued)
So please read Exodus and Leviticus and as you do ask yourself is what goes on in the LDS temple identical to what is being described. Not just a slight similarity here and there, but identical. You will find similarities in pagan religions all over, because all paganism stems from Babylon. Nimrod, Noah’s grandson is the Father of all paganism.
What Mormons have is a modern version of pagan temples. They are pagan in that they set-up a false god to whom they are performing occult rituals in the hope that they will also become gods. When he is so inclined, the Mormon temple god provides some spirits, supposedly of dead people flocking to the temple, to confirm the pagan god’s legitimacy. The uninformed naive Mormon supposes these spirit manifestations are the real deal, which they are except that the source comes out of the dark spiritual world.
Once Mormons leave and go through some sort of mental detox, they get it. They see what they were involved in.
Now if Mormons go through the “secret” ceremonies they pledge through oaths all sorts of things and accept various penalties for disclosing these rituals. Escaping from the cult is thus made much more difficult which is the purpose of course.
For those inductees who are unusually given to fear and quite gullible, the ceremonies and oaths lock them into the system.
John 6:44
What really urks me about talking to the LDS from a messianic perspective, is that they are so quick to point out how the forefathers of Christianity (really the Catholic church) corrupted Christianity. Which to some extent is true in my view. They allowed all kinds of Paganism into the church labeling it Christian (Easter, Christmas etc…) and prevented the Jewishness from remaining. However, all the corruption that took place still remains in Mormonism. They celebrate Christmas, Easter and moved the Sabbath to Sunday right along with the Catholics and the protestants. So if they are a true replica of the early church why do they retain all of this corruption! And what gives them the authority to change God’s commands any more than the Catholics? God’s words and His commands are forever! He didn’t change His laws, men changed the laws and are still doing it.
Don’t take me wrong. I do not adhere to a work based faith and believe whole heartedly in Jesus saving blood. But while He came to fulfill the law He never abolished it, it is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I think the Christian community does a dis-service when reaching out to the LDS. Here they claim that the Bible is unchanging, but don’t adhere to the laws of the Torah. The message is that the Catholic church can change the rules, but the LDS cannot. Doesn’t make sense. If God’s Word is unchanging, it is unchanging!
‘messianic’- I am not part of any denomination, only a born-again learner from the Bible. just wanted to let you know that it’s nice to ‘meet’ you, and I appreciate your comments out here. Also, i’d love to hear more about your beliefs (you don’t believe most of the NT?), my email is [email protected] if you’re interested.
setfree-
I will email you with a longer explanation of my beliefs. But, for the others on this site, I like you, consider myself a born-again learner (I love that term!) I believe the entire Bible, including the Apostolic Scriptures (the New Testament) I just don’t believe that it is all that “new”. I don’t believe that the “church” has interpreted much of the scriptures correctly. The Apostolic Scriptures were written mostly by Jews and to Jews. The “Christian church” has tried to interpret them out of that context and therefore miss a lot, throwing out the Tanakh(OT) in light of the Apostolic Scriptures(NT), when they are all one book and all one gospel. I am a believer in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, who followed the Jewish commandments perfectly, therefore fulfilling the laws, but not abolishing them! We are not under (justified by) the law, but it is still the standard by which we should live.
i’m pretty sure the rest of the Christians here on MC believe something quite similar to what you have described>
You always have to keep in mind that the “Christian church” is not a denomination or organization, but just the believers, and we’re not always as loud or as noticeable…
Mormonism isn’t really that hard to figure out. First we have a god that is not God. We have a prophet that isn’t a prophet and we have a temple that isn’t really a temple but a building where by folks who enjoy dressing-up in costumes and doing rituals borrowed from the Masonic lodge rituals get together in the hope that maybe they might catch a glimpse of some type of spirit beings. All this is done in their hope that they could become gods and have their very own planetary system to rule.
That’s basically the Mormon narrative. Our responsibility is to get this information out so that folks who are being recruited know what Mormonism is all about and can therefore avoid getting sucked in.
setfree, you say that messianic and Evangelicals agree, hmmm, it didn’t sound that way to me. Please correct me if I’m wrong from the above post I have read.
Janet
setfree-
I guess the difference lies in what commandments one believes should be followed. When I say commandments I mean those laid out in the Torah, including keeping Sabbath, celebrating the commanded Feasts and eating according to the biblical Kosher laws. Most Christians do not believe that these laws still stand. I do.
Janet-
Where did setfree say that the Evangelical church agreed with the Messianic movement? He said as non-denominational believers, many would agree. He never mentioned the Evangelical church. He may or may not agree with the messianic movement, but the idea that all believers are Evangelical is a made up Mormon myth. The church is made up of individuals despite their denomination they may be affiliated with.
Messianic,
Hello,
I enjoyed your comments on the truth of the Jewish
Temple ritual and how it is vastly different from
the mormon Temple ritual.
I’m sure other christians on this blog have some
different opinions on some of the other areas you
feel passionate about, and some of our LDS guests
might wish to direct the conversation towards those areas, but considering that the moniker of
this ministry is ” examining the claims of Mormon-
ism …”, could we keep the dialog on that topic?
Thanks.
I do have a question on the Mormon Temple ritual:
If the Jewish Temple ritual was sacred, yet the
people knew what transpired, what is your take
on the Mormon ritual being called sacred but also
being kept secret?
Mike R-
Absolutely, I was just trying to give a little background as to show where I was coming from. As a new poster I can see how quickly a diversion can be made and the issue at hand avoided!
As for sacred versus secret. God has no secrets. He revealed all that went on in the Temple to us in the Torah. The Holy of Holies was a sacred place, only the High Priest could enter, others were struck dead for entering. But, it was never a secret as to what went on and the priests were free to discuss it. In fact they didn’t have to, it was all written in the Torah for all to see! I think the LDS use the sacredness card to get out of facing the reality of what goes on in there when talking to outsiders. What they do in the Temple is not what is described in the Torah and is therefore Paganism at it’s core! Paganism in the name of Jesus, which God comes down hard on in the Tanakh (OT).
Messianic,
Following your comments with interest. Did God allow blood oaths in relation to the Temple? Did the High Priest ever take a blood oath? If the Temple Ritual is handed down from Adam, like the Mormons say, why is their secret ritual not mentioned at all in the OT? And what is your take on the Urim and Thummim? Were they spectacles? Two stones connected by a silver ‘bow’? And why would the Mormons have altars for sacrifice in their Temples? Is that going to come back at some point as the Mormons say?
Messianic,
Thanks for your reply. May our LDS guests eyes
be opened to see how their leaders have misled
them concerning the Temple.
Janet suggest I improve my writing
OK, how about…
I don’t know who has been telling you what, but according to Brigham Young, you, as a female, are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation.
Or, let’s take the “comma handles” and re-arrange the phrasing to…
I don’t know who has been telling you what, but you, as a female, are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation, according to Brigham Young.
Is that any plainer?
Janet,
Thank you for reading my post, and your reminder to me to keep improving my English.
Now that we’ve cleared up my misplaced comma, perhaps you’d like to address the SUBSTANCE OF THE ISSUE.
Janet also wrote
Janet,
You don’t seem to comprehend the basis of Paul’s objections to “what is done in secret” (Eph 5:12-14). He says that it is the “disobedient” who get involved with the “secret stuff”, and we should shun and anathemize them. The righteous, by contrast, do things publicly, openly and transparently. The light of Christ, which brings everything to light, is what exposes the sin that the disobedient try to hide. Its the “dark” stuff, the “secret” stuff that kills you. By contrast, when the light of Christ exposes and illuminates our sorry state, we are brought to life.
However, instead of shunning and anathemizing the architect of their secret society (Joseph Smith), Mormons sing his praises. What a perversion!
I know its really hard for you to comprehend this whole “light” and “darkness” thing, given that you have invested so heavily in your secret fraternity. But, I firmly believe that if Paul were around today, and that if he had been confronted with Mormonism, he would write a letter just like Ephesians to warn Christians against it.
Martin,
Don’t you mean sexaltation?
“Sisters, do you wish to make yourselves happy? Then what is your duty? It is for you to bear children,…are you tormenting yourselves by thinking that your husbands do not love you? I would not care whether they loved a particle or not; but I would cry out, like one of old, in the joy of my heart, ‘I have got a man from the Lord!” ‘Hallelujah! I am a mother–…” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.37)
“Following your comments with interest. Did God allow blood oaths in relation to the Temple? Did the High Priest ever take a blood oath?”
Not that I know of. The Torah doesn’t record any blood oaths taken by the priest that I know of.
“If the Temple Ritual is handed down from Adam, like the Mormons say, why is their secret ritual not mentioned at all in the OT?”
Good question, I don’t believe it was handed down by Adam, it was given to Moses, but existed before that in the heavenly realm, where it still exists today. And it was never a secret. The Mormon rituals are not mentioned in the OT because they are not true secret rituals.
“And what is your take on the Urim and Thummim? Were they spectacles? Two stones connected by a silver ‘bow’?”
No, they were not spectacles, they sat in the breastplate of the High Priest and were used to make decisions a couple times in the Bible, but we really don’t know much more without speculation. If they sat in the breastplate of the priest clothing they were most likely stones like the other gems and stones described as being n the breast plate.
“And why would the Mormons have altars for sacrifice in their Temples? Is that going to come back at some point as the Mormons say?”
I don’t know why Mormons have altars, you would have to ask them. My personal opinion is that sacrifice may come back, but it will be as a memorial of Yeshua(Jesus) and not an atonement for sin. In fact many of the sacrifices and offerings described in the Torah have nothing to do with atonement for sin. It is an interesting subject that I am still learning about.
messianic,
I just read your posts. What a breath of fresh air! Someone who is concerned with the Jewish context of Jesus and the NT, who noticed that Jesus did not abolish the Law, who has some appreciation of what the Jerusalem Temple meant. Joy!
You wrote
Here’s a conversation I’d really like to have with a Messianic Jew, but maybe this isn’t the forum. My starting point is how do you reconcile Mat 5:17-19 with Romans 10:4? My understanding is to read Romans 10:4 as “Christ fulfilled the law”, or “Christ brought the law to its ultimate conclusion”. The outcome is that Jews continue to be Jews and Gentiles continue to be Gentiles, but for both, true righteousness does not come from the law, but from Christ Himself.
This also means that Gentiles shouldn’t attempt to become “pseudo” Jews, which is why Gentile Christians are not obligated to observing the Jewish Law (in terms of circumcision, sacrifice, festivals etc). This is where you and I might differ.
For this relationship between Jewish and Gentile believers, see also Eph 2:11-18 (thanks to MJP for pointing me to this passage earlier).
Further, as the fulfilment of the law, Christ Himself is the True Temple (see Rev 21:22).
What do you think?
But Mormon women do get to run their own Church Organization. It is called the:
Belief Society: Where good women learn to believe in being obedient and pregnant.
Janet,
Is there anyway to know if the ‘Urim & Thummin’ used by J.S. Is the same as the U&T mentioned in the O.T.? It doesn’t seem like these are the same.
One depiction of the U&T used by J.S.
http://www.mormonthink.com/img/trans3.jpg
Looks like a pair of spectacles.
A depiction of the U&T used in the O.T.
http://www.crystalinks.com/urimvest.jpg
Is J.S. breastplate supposed to look like the one use in the O.T?
Here is an interesting commentary about the ‘ephod’.
“The original meaning of ephod is “girdle” and the verb aphad means “to put on, to gird.” David, a strong believer in the Urim and Thummim, danced before the Lord “girded with an ephod,” and we must assume that according to the primitive fashion the diviner was otherwise naked.”
From chinese Occultism, actually comparing the U&T to Chinese methods of divination to the U&T.
I haven’t heard of J.S. described as wearing only this breastplate while translating the BOM. What is the actual description of the process?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/choc/choc04.htm
Martin,
There might also be other reasons why gentiles and jews remain distinct. They do however still make sacrifices.
“Kaparot is a traditional Jewish religious ritual that takes place around the time of the High Holidays. Classically, it is performed by grasping a live chicken by the sholder blades and moving around one’s head three times, symbolically transferring one’s sins to the chicken. The chicken is then slaughtered and donated to the poor, preferably eaten at the pre-Yom Kippur feast. In modern times, Kapparos is performed in the traditional form mostly in Haredi communities. The ritual is preceded by the reading of Psalms 107:17-20 and Job 33:23-24. ”
From top 10 most bizarre Religious Practices.
(I will also note that mormons made 2 of the ten on the list, one for the temple garments, and another for works for the dead. Both associated with LDS temple works)
“Following your comments with interest. Did God allow blood oaths in relation to the Temple? Did the High Priest ever take a blood oath?”
Clarification, do you mean blood atonement? I not sure of any blood oath, if so could you please explain.
” In order to understand what Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Charles W. Penrose and others have said, we must mention that there are some sins for which the blood of Christ alone does not cleanse a person. These include blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (as defined by the Church) and that murder which is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice. However, and this cannot be stressed too strongly, this law has not been given to the Church at any time in this dispensation. It has no application whatever to anyone now living whether he is a member or a non-member of the Church.”
The Council of the Twelve
47 East South Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 18, 1978
Janet
“I don’t know who has been telling you what, but according to Brigham Young, you, as a female, are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation.”
To all our guest and visitors, this is exactly what to expect from a very poorly educated boy, sexism is well and alive amongst some of our Evangelical friends. Embarrassing as this is, it really is much more about the maturity of an adolescent trying to become a man, or a man who never got past adolescents.
J.
Grindael,
I found this statement about Relief Society from an LDS webpage:
“The Relief Society was founded by the Prophet Joseph Smith on March 17, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois. In the days of its founding, it had two main purposes: to provide relief for the poor and needy and to bring people to Christ.”
Messianic,
Do you observe Kaparot? Avoid wearing fabric with mixed threads? Also avoid eating the sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels? I think I will stop there. I find this curious. What of what remains of the original temple, which is now ‘the wailing wall’?
Set free,
I don’t think many christians observe what is questioned above. Nor avoiding pork, shrimp. Most christians also observe ‘the lords day’ sunday, not the seventh day. The LDS people observe what is customary in a particular country.
This is a Blood Oath, (if I had meant Blood ATONEMENT, I would have said it)
“… we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots.”
And I’m not interested in hearing the Church’s PR Spin on Blood Atonement (but any opportunity to put the Church’s spin out there, eh?).
More Brigham Young on women:
“[women] have no right to meddle in the affairs of the Kingdom of God[—]outside the pale of this they have a right to meddle because many of them are more sagacious & shrewd & more competent [than men] to attend to things of financial affairs. they never can hold the keys of the Priesthood apart from their husbands. When I want Sisters or the Wives of the members of the church to get up Relief Society I will summon them to my aid but until that time let them stay at home & if you see females huddling together veto the concern.” – D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Signature Books, 1994), 650.
Enki,
Thanks for the effort. I’m well aware of the Historical backround of the Belief Society. Smith had to think of SOMETHING for the women to do.
And I went to the Fair site, and they try to justify the above BY quote above by saying that sexist attitudes were ‘common to the times he lived in’. Well, that makes a WHOLE lot of sense. Isn’t a prophet supposed to be ‘uncommon’? Oh yeah, a profit is only a profit when they are acting as such… or some such nonsense as that…
For a great perspective on what Early Mormon men thought of women, there is always this quote by H.C. Kimball,
‘I think no more of marrying a women than I do of buying a cow.’
They actually said that if they had problems with their women and got to heaven, Smith would be there telling them here are ‘thousands to choose from’ and he would be happy to hook them up.
Oh my, and the OT and NT aren’t sexist? do say. By the way, does your particular Church support a women pastor? Hope so.
Janet.
Janet, you keep redirecting. Uncomfortable with the questions you’ve been asked?
Enki, you’re right, after learning more about what “messianic” believes last night, I’d say I agree more with what Martin just wrote above. However, I do know others who are born-again believers (one is ex-Mormon, the other is not) who believe as messianic does. I, like messianic, believe that the Catholic church has introduced and forwarded corruption like Easter and Christmas, etc, but do not celebrate the Jewish feasts, for the reasons Martin gave.
Anyway, that said, the important similarity between messianic’s, Martin’s, and my beliefs is that Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that works have NOTHING to do with salvation. That is the gospel (good news)
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
And yes, in one of the Churches I attend women speak from the pulpit same as men. Husband and wife are ordained together, and each has equal authority to preach and build up the church. There is no special ‘society’ just for men or woman, all are equal to the Lord, as He intended it to be.
I believe in no CHURCH. I attend different Churches. I believe in Jesus and the Bible. No man will ever come between ME and HIM. Say what you will, but even in the light of the historical times they lived in, the early Mormons treatment of women was appalling – as it is to this day.
“Do you observe Kaparot? Avoid wearing fabric with mixed threads? Also avoid eating the sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels? I think I will stop there. I find this curious. What of what remains of the original temple, which is now ‘the wailing wall’?”
No, I do not observe these things. They are not in the Torah, they are oral tradition that was added by the Rabbis, not to mention those laws in the Torah that pertain to purification for the purpose of entering the temple do not apply because the Temple does not exist. Here is a great article on this subject if you are interested: http://torahforchristians.blogspot.com/2010/01/law-is-not-impossible-to-keep-if-youre.html
Set free,
I don’t think many christians observe what is questioned above. Nor avoiding pork, shrimp. Most christians also observe ‘the lords day’ sunday, not the seventh day. The LDS people observe what is customary in a particular country.”
So we should follow our countries leading instead of God’s? It is customary in our country to drink coffee, but I bet as an LDS follower you do not! God says over and over again don’t follow the pagan ways. Sunday worship is pagan, there is no biblical backing for the changing of the Sabbath day. It was changed by the catholic church and they admit this.
messianic,
one thing I find funny is how Jews want to keep all the laws over in Israel, Yet they Eat pork and re name it short cow. They also build concrete platforms to slaughter the cows on and by being lifted off the ground they can then say, they are not on Israel land. Just a thought. Rick b