It has been said that the purpose of LDS temples is to make men into Gods. Many Mormons dispute this, complaining about the insensitive way this sacred information is presented. Whether such a statement seems sensationalized or not, the question is: Is it true?
In the October 2009 Ensign LDS Apostle Robert D. Hales wrote about the “Blessings of the Temple.” Some excerpts from the article:
“The temple endowment blessings are as essential for each of us as was our baptism…
“The temple’s saving ordinances are essential to–and even the central focus of–the eternal plan of happiness…
“The primary purpose of the temple is to provide the ordinances necessary for our exaltation in the celestial kingdom…
“…know the importance of the saving temple ordinances and temple covenants and their necessity in achieving eternal goals…
“The temple is a sacred edifice, a holy place, where essential saving ceremonies and ordinances are performed to prepare us for exaltation…
“Our objective is…to be worthy to stand and live in the presence of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, for all eternity–to achieve what is called eternal life.” (Ensign, October 2009, 46-49).
In Mormonism then, temples and the covenants and ordinances accomplished therein, are essential, necessary, and the central focus of God’s plan for saving people and preparing them to achieve their eternal goal of exaltation (aka eternal life). This is, in fact, the primary purpose of LDS temples.
Neither of the official LDS websites (lds.org and mormon.org) include a glossary entry for the term “exaltation,” but lds.org directs inquiries to the section on “eternal life.” Though a bit ambiguous, the definition reads in part,
“Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4).”
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a little more informative:
“To Latter-day Saints, exaltation is a state that persons can attain in becoming like God–salvation in the ultimate sense (D&C 132:17)…This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving the power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection (TPJS, pp. 300-301; D&C 132:19).” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “Exaltation”)
The “Eternal Life” entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism speaks more about how to achieve it than what it is, but the reader is directed to the entry titled “Godhood” for more information. That says in part,
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals become gods (cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives…
“…while the faithful worship only one God in spirit and in truth, there exist other beings who have attained the necessary intelligence and righteousness to qualify for the title ‘god.’ Jesus Christ is a god and is a separate personage, distinct from God the Father…
“Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “Godhood”)
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie provided a concise and articulate explanation of exaltation:
“Celestial marriage is the gate to exaltation, and exaltation consists in the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life which God lives…they have spirit children in the resurrection, in relation to which offspring they stand in the same position that God our Father stands to us. They inherit in due course the fulness of the glory of the Father, meaning that they have all power in heaven and on earth. (D.&C. 76:50-60; 93:1-40.) ‘Then shall they be gods,…'” (Mormon Doctrine, “Exaltation,” 257)
If, as LDS Apostle Hales said, the primary purpose of the temple is to provide the ordinances necessary for our exaltation; and if, as LDS Apostle McConkie has said, exaltation is procreating spirit children in the resurrection to whom we are then Gods; then it seems entirely reasonable to conclude, though perhaps a bit simplistically, the purpose of LDS temples is to make men into Gods.
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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> As far as the other temple ordinances, we have been told that if there is no temple structure available then the ordinances need to be performed on mountain tops. <
I find the above comment, posted by Ralph on 3/15/2010, interesting in light of the following:
See the following words of the LORD regarding high places: Leviticus 26:27-30; Numbers 33:50-52; Deuteronomy 12:1-5 and 33:29; I Kings 3:2-3; 12:26-13:34 (especially 12:31 and 13:32-34; I Kings 14:22-24: I Kings 22:43 (This last verse speaks of King Jehoshaphat who did what was right for the most part BUT did not take away the high places. Over and over in the Old Testament, not taking away the high places is recorded as something a King did which was an exception to his otherwise having done what was right. (II Kings 12:2-3; 14:3-4; 15:3-4; 15:34-35).
For other verses on high places, see II Kings 16:2-4 and 17:7-23 (see, especially, 17:9)
This continues on and on, with some kings ignoring high places (the noted exception, as I wrote earlier, to otherwise following God), with some kings tearing them down, and with others building them back up. See all of II Kings 23 – note, especially, vss. 15 and 16, vss. 19-25, and vss. 35-37 (Here we go again!)
See Deuteronomy 12:1-32, which is what the actions of the various kings should have been based on.
Finally, note that building high places for his many wives and concubines led to God tearing away the kingdom from Solomon. I Kings 11:1-11.
Rick B-
I absolutely agree with you. That is why I am not a follower of the Rabbis, they have been adding to God’s laws and making exceptions since they sat in the seat of Moses. Hmmm this is just what the LDS have done as well, adding and changing God’s laws constantly.
Janet wrote
Janet,
I find your deliberate obstinacy incomprehensible.
The quote I posted implies that it is Brigham Young who was “sexist”, “poorly educated” and unable to “get past his adolescence”.
Don’t you get it? I am OBJECTING to Brigham Young’s sexism.
Yet you twist it and turn it on me.
I have no idea how you have got to the state when you can read something and infer the absolute opposite of what it meant, except that this is exactly where I see Mormonism taking its followers.
Seriously, you need help.
In full agreement with the above, Janet. Martin is one of, if not THE least passionate, most thoughtfully considerate commenters out here. For you to say such a thing about his maturity or knowledge shows how very very far you are from being perfect enough for your religion.
Seriously!
Grindael,
You wrote interesting thing about mountains, but you forgot these references –
Exodus 3:1-2 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isaiah 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain
Then there are the well known Bible stories of Moses going up Mount Sinai to get the 10 commandments from God and the Mount of Transfiguration.
So maybe you should have qualified your last post to say that some people had counterfeited God’s ways and established their own ‘high places’ because God did work on and made holy high places.
Ralph
I’m sorry, what did I post? If you want my opinion on mountain tops, didn’t they perform temple rituals in various buildings in Nauvoo and the Mississippi River? They sure did not seek out any mountain tops because a Temple was not available.
Regardless, I think it is just quaint Mormon folklore, thought of after they fled to the Rocky Mountains.
But I haven’t researched it, this is all from memory. Smith might have said something in reference to mountain tops though…
In looking around my book collection, I did find this quote from Smith:
Sunday, May 1, 1842 ‘I preached in the grove, on the keys of the kingdom, charity, & c. The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed. THE RICH CAN ONLY GET THEM IN THE TEMPLE, THE POOR MAY GET THEM ON THE MOUNTAIN TOP AS DID MOSES.’ -DHC 4:608
The first endowment ceremony was performed on the second floor of Smith’s Red Brick Store..& baptisms for the dead were performed in the Mississippi River. No Temple (or Mountaintop) needed, I guess.
Sorry Grindael, I meant GPark. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am half asleep at work trying to get my head around a few dozen papers because dead-line for grants is next Thursday. So I saw the ‘G’ at the beginning of the name and thought of you. Don’t you feel special now that I think of you? 🙂
Martin-
–Here’s a conversation I’d really like to have with a Messianic Jew, but maybe this isn’t the forum. My starting point is how do you reconcile Mat 5:17-19 with Romans 10:4? My understanding is to read Romans 10:4 as “Christ fulfilled the law”, or “Christ brought the law to its ultimate conclusion”. The outcome is that Jews continue to be Jews and Gentiles continue to be Gentiles, but for both, true righteousness does not come from the law, but from Christ Himself.–
In Romans 10:4 ‘end’ is better translated as goal. Christ was the goal of the law for righteousness. We get our righteousness from Christ. However He did not abolish the law as is shown in Mat 5. So we have a perfect law that was given by God to His people that we as sinners are unable to live perfectly. Jesus died for our righteousness therefore we are not made righteous by the law. But were we ever made righteous by the law? Abraham was saved by his faith which resulted in obedience. David was saved because of his faith. If you truly study the Tanakh you see that the sacrificial system was never meant to make us righteous, it was a shadow of Messiah. They were looking forward to a Messiah that we are looking back on. The Temple held the presence of God, therefore one needed to be pure to enter in, which is still the case, but God now dwells in the true temple in heaven and Jesus is acting as our high priest being the perfect sacrifice for our sins, making us righteous to enter. If you go on to Romans 10:12 you find:
“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”
We are no different being Gentile or Jewish, we are all saved by the blood of Jesus. We have been grafted into the Olive tree. Who is the native Olive tree? The Israelites are, therefore we become Israelites and should follow the same laws given by God to the Israelites in the Torah. (Romans 11) We are not justified by the law it does not make us righteous
however it is the standard, if it is not then why did Jesus have to keep it in order to pay for our sins? Christians go around wearing WWJD but never really follow what Jesus did. He kept the laws, does this mean we don’t have to? As Paul says:
Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
–This also means that Gentiles shouldn’t attempt to become “pseudo” Jews, which is why Gentile Christians are not obligated to observing the Jewish Law (in terms of circumcision, sacrifice, festivals etc). This is where you and I might differ.–
Yes we do differ here! They aren’t “Jewish laws” they are God’s laws given to anyone who wished to be part of the “called out” ones and become His people. I believe that as you go through Paul’s writings you find a lot of talk about not being justified by the law. Some of the believers wanted to say that the new believers had to be circumcised in order to be saved and follow the rabbinical oral Torah. Paul speaks out against this over and over again saying they are saved by their faith. But, faith leads to obedience. Let me ask you what you believe sin is? Is it not “lawlessness” or as the KJV puts it “transgression of the law” 1 John 3:4?
–For this relationship between Jewish and Gentile believers, see also Eph 2:11-18(thanks to MJP for pointing me to this passage earlier).–
I personally don’t see the conflict here, we are all one in Christ now. But read carefully, the gentiles are brought into God’s people not the other way around. Here the law of commandments contained in ordinances is the oral Torah. That is the rabbinical laws that were not from the Torah itself but fences that the Rabbi’s created in order to keep the people from sinning. While these began as well meaning they turned into extra laws on top of God’s perfect law. In fact circumcision was never a requirement to convert to Judaism in the Tanakh, it is not until later this is added. It is a commandment however that
once one becomes part of Israel one may choose to follow, just as all the other commandments. We are not saved by these, but we are to follow them. It is part of the santification process. The main issue discussed in the NT is directly in response to the Judaism of the day. They believed that they inherited God’s Kingdom due to their blood line, it had nothing to do with faith, if you were born a Jew, you were in. Therefore they created a convertion ceremony including circumcision, mikvah, agreeing to obey God’s commands and sacrifice. This remains today in Rabbinic Judaism, although sacrifice has been replaced with offering money. This ceremony made these people Jewish and therefore saved. It was all about ethnicity. Paul spoke against this. The Torah never taught this. Foreigners could join the Israelites at any time by puttin their faith in the God of Abraham. Ruth the Moabite is a great example. You also see it at the Exodus when a mixed multitude leaves Egypt and are all later refered to as the “children of Israel” and they all agree to the covenant made with the Israelites. (Exodus 12:38)(Exodus 12:51)(Exodus 19:8)
–Further, as the fulfilment of the law, Christ Himself is the True Temple (see Rev 21:22).–
Not sure how this is relevant, this verse is in refference to the New Jerusalem, after the Mellenial Kingdom and after judgement when we are all perfected in Christ. This is not a current thing, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. I would have to study further on this to tell you more about the temple being in the new heaven and new earth, I don’t know. I can speculate that it might not be there due to the fact that we are all perfected at that point and therefore the Temple is obsolete, but I’m not sure?
–What do you think?–
These are some of my thoughts on your questions. I am still working through many questions myself and had some of these same questions early on. But what I do know is that Jesus taught to follow His commandments, what
commandments is He speaking of if He is not speaking of God’s commandments in the Torah. Did you know almost everywhere that the word law is used in the NT the original word is “Torah”? We translate it as law, but it is better translated as instruction or guideline. My question is why wouldn’t we want to celebrate these prophetic, meaningful festivals and keep the day that in the Ten commandments we are told to remember forever?
How do you recosile Mathew 5:17-19 with the idea that the law is no longer in effect? Did Jesus really die just so we could ignore God’s Commandments and eat pork?
If you would like to chat further you can email me at [email protected] as I think we are getting off topic on this thread and I would be happy to continue this discussion, I am not Jewish, I come from an Evangelical background and am fairly new to this perssuasion, it has taken over a year of study and prayer to come to where I am.
Ralph
No problem, I got to research something I was a bit fuzzy on anyway. I did go back and read your original comment though, and if you look at what Smith did (performing the ceremonies in his store & the mississippi) then your argument is weak. (about the mountains) but – I do agree that God’s ways are counterfeited … As for baptism for the dead … it is a very very tenuous thread that the doctrine is based on. Notice when you read the reference Paul says we this we that, us this & us that and then when he gets to that verse he says why do ‘they’… And Mormon literature is FILLED with references to this ordinance, it is WIDELY taught by all the prophets & leaders.
It’s importance was very strongly advocated by Smith, and to me the NT silence on this is telling. There is just simply NOTHING there at all about it, except that passing reference by Paul, which can be taken either way….In fact, BY said that if he had introduced it, there would have been more of an uproar than the Adam-god Doctrine…
As for mountains, it goes both ways … and really doesn’t prove anything either way.
Sorry for joining in so late. I have not had a chance to read all the replys, so please forgive me if I repeat something that has already been stated.
The mormon temple is NOTHING but a means for the mormon church to gauranty tithing income into the church. It’s almost genius if it wasn’t so manipulative and wasteful: No tithe…no temple. No temple…no forever family, no blessings, no godhood….blah, blah, blah, blah blah. What a mindgame.
The more I think about the arrogance of those who jump through all the mormon hoops in the hopes that they will someday be a god, ruling over their planet and spirit children, the more I know it’s the same kind of pride that drove lucifer out of the presence of Heavenly Father.
Jesus said “I am the Way and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.” Jesus didn’t say joseph smith, the doctrine and covenants, the second anointing, and whatever else the mormoms conjure up.
Thank you Jesus Christ…I love you. Please forgive joseph smith and all those who know it’s a sham, but continue to deceive.
Free (indeed) Jesus Christ is the one and only way to the Father.
Really Martin? “are nothing but the furniture that a man may climb upon to reach his exaltation” —- and you want me to believe there is nothing sexist or disturbingly perverted with this?
Does your wife understand that you post using such derogatory, descriptive and visual porn. I think that she would be most likely shocked at what you do in your little office, when alone.
Janet.
Grindael,
(And this time it is in response to Grindael) you said “As for mountains, it goes both ways … and really doesn’t prove anything either way.” I totally agree with your sentiments here.
GPark (who wrote the original comment) was trying to point out that in the OT the ‘high places’ were abominable to God and should be destroyed. This was in response to my comment about how the ordinances can be performed up in the mountains if there was no temple around. Thus GPark was trying to prove the LDS church wrong by showing that the ‘high places’ were condemned. I was just indicating that the ‘high places’ were also used by God for His purposes thus negating GPark’s comments.
So as you said, it goes both ways in the Bible about how the mountains or ‘high places’ are used – it does not prove a thing about the temple ordinances.
Ralph,
Glad we could agree on something, and I think God is more concerned with the attitude associated with those high places … than the high places themselves.
Janet wrote
Please, please read what I posted.
I do want you to believe that it is sexist and disturbingly perverted.
I am NOT advocating it. I am OBJECTING to it.
Brigham Young advocated it. HE is the one who is sexist and disturbingly perverted. That is why I posted his quote.
I have severe problems with Brigham Young’s “restored” gospel and so do you, it seems.
If you find it as disgusting as I do, please level your criticism at Brigham Young, not me. Please do not credit me with his abberrations. I want nothing to do with them.
If you think my assessment of Brigham Young’s values is harsh, then I invite you to look into the early history of the LDS movement to demonstrate otherwise. I warn you, though, that the polygamist culture you will encounter is one in which women were regarded as furniture.
As for my “little office”, you are welcome to visit any time (ask the mods for my email, and I’ll send you the street address – I can’t vouch for your air fares, though). Incidentally, I operate a policy of zero tolerance on porn at home and at work.
messianic,
Thankyou for your response.
I’m not going to comment much further here, other that to say that your reading of scripture is very, very similar to mine. I enjoyed your posts very much.
For example, you have engaged Paul’s concerns about mixed ethnicity in the early church (should the church have a “jewish” or a “gentile” flavor, and what does being “jewish” or “gentile” mean in the light of Christ’s atoning work?).
I note where we might differ, but I trust that we are united in our worship of Christ, our respect for the scriptures, and our respect for the story of Israel in providing the context in which we see Jesus.
“Women are queens and priestesses but not gods. The Godhead, the ‘Presidency of Heaven,’ is a presidency of three male deities, similar to a stake presidency whose members each have wives who are responsible for domestic religious education but not ecclesiastical functions.” – Rodney Turner, retired BYU religion professor, Sunstone Panel Discussion, September 7, 1991.
messianic,
“… Avoid wearing fabric with mixed threads? Also avoid eating the sciatic nerve and its adjoining blood vessels?…No, I do not observe these things. They are not in the Torah…”
The link you provided clarified that the mixed threads are specifically linen and wool. ‘Shatnez’ forbidden in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:5, 22:9-11. There is some speculation around why this is prohibited.
“The fact that the first murder recorded in the Bible was over a dispute based on sacrifices of flax (by Cain) and sheep (by Abel). Linen is a product of a riverine agricultural economy, such as that of the Nile Valley, while wool is a product of a desert, pastoral economy, such as that of the Hebrew tribes. Mixing the two together symbolically mixes Egypt and the Hebrews.”
From a Wiki entry on ‘Shatnez’
Concerning the sciatic nerve
Genesis 32:32
“Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.”
There is more commentary on a blog “Kosher living and diet For Messianic Believers” on the topic, if you care to look it up.
Concerning animal sacrifices and the destruction of the temple, I would have to read up more. It is interesting.
For clarification the “Shatnez” issue covers a lot of ground. The actual prohibition of wool and linen together is found in Deuteronomy 22:11.
“”You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.”
Aaron,
That may be the present position of the LDS movement. Who knows how long it will last?.
However, what I have seen of the early LDS movement of Smith and Young is quite different, though their positions probably shifted to whatever circumstances suited them from day to day. What I suspect is that Smith and Young would preach exaltation by polygamy to recruit the men, and then say something quite different and inconsistent to pacify the women.
I can’t help wondering, though, that one of the driving forces for the whole Temple enterprise was Smith and Young’s need to legitimize their involvements with other women through some kind of secret ceremony (celestial marriage).
“Thou shalt not commit adultery” (Ex 20:14). Easy; they’ll just invent a new form of “marriage”, so it isn’t adultery any more.
…even though the one thing that unifies the concept of “marriage” in every culture through all the ages is the concept of a publicly witnessed and sanctioned wedding. I am firmly convinced that is the single most important reason why it is such an enduring and beneficial institution.
A “wedding”, however you care to define it, is not a good candidate for conversion to a secret ceremony, and rightfully so.
As Mormonism became less acceptable to the general population, the Mormons made adjustments and called it progressive revelation. That’s what the “Smoot” hearings were all about when Utah tried to seat a senator. The hearings went on for some time and finally the LDS bunch in Utah threw in the towel. That’s why we have the FLDS and any number of Mormon offshoots today.
It’s the same thing with the very “sacred” temple rituals. Once word got out about what was going on in the temples, the rituals were changed. The differences are significant. In Mormonism, “progressivism”, covers everything. Under the concept of being progressive and gaining more truth and light, anything can be justified and even celebrated.
Martin,
You gave me my morning LOL in your response to the ever increasing melt-down posts by one of our Mormon (posters). I enjoy the dynamics of the interactions here as much as the posts themselves. It really is a learning experience.
> I was just indicating that the ‘high places’ were also used by God for His purposes thus negating GPark’s comments. < – Ralph
Ralph,
My post on the 'high places' wasn't meant in a 'tit for tat' manner, like a chess move, where one player's move trumps or 'negates' another's.
I am well aware that the Bible is full of verses about mountains.
The flood covered the mountains. (Gen.7:20)
The ark rested on the mountains. (Gen. 8:4)
People fled to the mountains. (Gen. 14:10)
People dwelt in the mountains. (Gen 19:30; Numbers 13:29: Joshua 19:50)
Wonderfully, God created the mountains. (Psalm 90:2)
Psalm 36:6 says of God: "Your righteousness is like the great mountains…" [Literally, the mountains of God]
Gloriously, one day, the Lamb will stand on Mount Zion. (Revelation 14:1)
Rather, the thing that immediately leapt to mind, and saddened my heart, when I first saw the portion of your post that I originally quoted, was that secret ceremonies, conducted by people whose founder and his predecessors have perverted the Gospel of Christ, are like the worship of false gods very often mentioned in connection with the phrase high places, and sometimes the word mountains (Deut. 12:2), in the Bible.
I feel such a burden for you and other Mormons, Ralph. Unlike you, who believe that if I and others don't 'make' the Celestial Kingdom, we will still spend eternity in a place far better than earth (the Terrestrial Kingdom), I believe that if you are not depending on the atoning blood of Jesus Christ to cover ALL of your sins, you will spend eternity in a place inconceivably worse than earth. I pray that you find the Truth.
Enki-
You are correct wool and linen are not to be worn together according to the verses you quoted, this does not mean all mixed fabrics are forbidden. What is really interesting is that when you read through the priestly garments the Torah tells the High Priest that His clothes must be made of wool and linen? I don’t know why this is commanded and it is debated even among Messianics as to whether it stands as a commandment or not. I personally don’t worry about it because I never wear Linen anyway, it wrinkles to easy:)
As for the sciatic nerve, read the verse carefully. It is not commanded, it says the Israelites don’t do it, but it does not say they can’t. Maybe that’s splitting hairs, it is also debated among Messianics and really is not an issue for me personally since I don’t really eat that part of the animal anyway, I am pretty squeamish about any tendons or dark meat and tend to stick to the white meat.
The real question is what is your point? Are you trying to catch me in a law I don’t keep? Because we all break God’s laws. I strive to keep those that I see clearly in the Torah and I pray for the Lord’s guidance to continue to teach me His ways.
My real point, which the LDS always dodge is why don’t you keep the correct Sabbath, why don’t you keep the commanded feasts? The Apostles kept these, Jesus kept these, the early church kept these. They weren’t done away with until the Catholic church decided to get rid of them and replace them with Paganism. So if the LDS claim to be the restored church, why don’t they keep the things that the early church kept and which were commanded by God? Instead they keep the same pagan rooted holidays that the Catholic church instituted and the Protestants, Catholics and Wiccans, Druids etc… all share in common. They claim Sunday as the Sabbath, almost all Pagan religions worship Sunday as their Sabbath. and the catholic church readily admits there is no Biblical basis for changing this day, they just did it.
So why does the LDS church claim a restored church and a return from the corruption, when they in turn have kept all the corruption? Again God’s laws don’t change, no man has the authority to change them. Not the Catholic church and not the LDS Prophets. So why do the LDS ignore God’s laws and call them over ridden when God clearly states they are His statutes forever?
The phrase “whose founder and his predecessors” in my previous post should have read whose founder and his successors.
I meant to suggest this with my post last night but I forgot. This may not be the appropriate forum, but I don’t know where else to put it. Maybe this could be a topic on it’s own someday.
I really think that the LDS church should remove the Holy and Sacred name of Jesus Christ (our One and Only Savior) from the name of their church. Since they don’t believe that He is the only path to heaven, and that Adam is the only god with who we should be concerned with, why not? It’s a win/win for everybody.
Clearly the lds church teaches that all may become gods someday if you follow the lds rules and jump through all the lds hoops, and that we must all receive joseph smith’s permission to enter heaven, so why not remove this Sacred and Beautiful name of Jesus Christ?
Can anybody else help me with this? Can we start a petition, or forward a decree?
I think my Savior Jesus is worth it!
Peace and love to ALL – Free
Messianic,
A lot of Christians pick and choose which elements of the O.T. they observe. This varies from sect to sect which ones they think are important, and which ones are not. How they read particular prohibitions also varies, needless to say there are a lot of misunderstandings on what is actually prohibited, to whom it was prohibited to and in what context.
I think LDS people also only go by ‘what they see clearly’. I would say they pray for insight also.
I haven’t attended Church services for over 20 years. Leave it to active members to explain why they do what they do, and why they read scriptures the way that they do.
As far as I understand Pagans go by a seasonal cycle, for instance Summer solstice, June 21 or 22. And fall equinox, September 21&22. Yule is now called ‘Christmas’, Samhain is now ‘Halloween’. In some countries ‘the day of the dead’.
I really like linen, its difficult to find real linen, sometimes its actually cotton or even some artificial fabric, and only called ‘linen’. Because of this confusion some producers specify that its from flax. A lot of jews completely avoid eating the legs of certain animals because its too labor intensive to remove the sciatic nerve. From the sounds of it, avoiding it is a sort of remembrance of the story of Jacob wrestling with an angel. It may not sound like a prohibition, but its something that is part of kosher because of how its mentioned. Aren’t all the holy days a remembrance of some event or story?
Trying to catch you in some way? No not at all. I was just curious as to what degree you ‘split hairs’, or what degree do you choose to observe.
Enki-
–A lot of Christians pick and choose which elements of the O.T. they observe. This varies from sect to sect which ones they think are important, and which ones are not. How they read particular prohibitions also varies, needless to say there are a lot of misunderstandings on what is actually prohibited, to whom it was prohibited to and in what context.–
I agree with you on this. When you start with the standard doctrines in the Christian community and try to read that doctrine into the text, you end up with all kinds of contradictions. Instead of learning the ways of the Hebrews, those who wrote the scriptures and those who the scriptures were primarily written to, they read the scriptures with a greek/western mindset. The Jewish people did not think the same as the Greeks. They did not write the same as the Greeks and they shouldn’t be read like the Greeks.
–I think LDS people also only go by ‘what they see clearly’. I would say they pray for insight also.
I haven’t attended Church services for over 20 years. Leave it to active members to explain why they do what they do, and why they read scriptures the way that they do.–
I have not found this to be the case among the LDS I have encountered. They either don’t or haven’t thought about what they were raised to believe, or they listen to the Prophet above everything else. Everything seems to be based on a ‘testimony’, or strong warm fuzzy feeling instead of studying and learning the Bible. I would be curious to know what you currently believe if you are not an active LDS? I personally can’t imagine how an LDS member could honestly read the Torah and pretend to think their Temple is a replica of the Tabernacle and their ceremonies are those that are described in the Torah? They have nothing in common!
As for Pagan’s, I encourage you to do a little study on the pagan origins of Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship, Halloween, Valentines Day, Lent etc… They are all directly out of Paganism.
I also like Lobster, but I don’t eat it anymore because the Bible says don’t eat it. If the commandment is a little fuzzy and I’m not sure about it I tend to air on the safe side and just follow it. But there are commandments that are clearly commanded such as the Sabbath, that many ignore. I don’t understand this. I think it does exactly what you said and it creates a witness to others that you are picking and choosing the commands of God you want to follow.
Yes, the feasts and festivals are kept to remember certain events, but they are so much more than that. They are a prophecy in and of themselves. Some have come to pass and some are yet to come. There is no where in scripture that states to stop keeping them. Just take a look at Passover, the Feast of unleavened bread, First Fruits and Shavuot. Jesus had a Passover meal with his disciples (Mark 14:12-26)(Luke 22:1-20)(Matthew 26:26-30)in which He tells us to observe it in remembrance of Him. He was crucified at the exact same time that the Passover lambs would have been being slaughtered at the Temple.(Matt 27:46-50)(Mark 15:34-37)(Luke 23:44)(John 19:30)(Exodus 12:6)Then exactly 3 days and 3 nights later he is resurrected on the feast of first fruits. Exactly 50 days later we have what is commonly called Pentecost. Well 50 days after First Fruits is the feast of Shavuot, both words mean 50. What does Shavuot remember? The giving of the law on Mt.Sinai. What happened at Pentecost, the law was written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. The remaining feasts are yet to be fulfilled, so why have we stopped keeping them?
I encourage you to study the Torah and the Jewish customs and then go back and read the Apostolic scriptures(NT). You will see them in an entirely different light. You will find the Apostles worshiping on Sabbath, meeting to break bread, which is customary at the end of the Sabbath amongst Jews. You will see Paul observing the laws, including the sacrifices. You see them observe the feasts etc…
Free,
I’m thinking that instead of a petition,if LDS
leadership would just be forthright about Mormon
teaching concerning their individual desire to
one day be worshipped and adored as a Almighty
God , and if the Mormon missionaries would admit
this to those they proselytize,then at least the
public would see how different Mormonism is etc.
The Mormon temples are monuments to false promises and false hope. It’s more than that of course because these edifices stand in open rebellion to god. They are pagan symbols of a people who have rejected God in vain pursuit of a lie. Mormons wrongly believe that if they can just do enough of these false temple rituals, they can become gods, just like all of the “gods” before them. In embracing this Satanic lie, Mormons have sold themselves and their children into an eternity separated not only from each other, but also Almighty God.
So the false promises of personal deification and families being together forever on their own planetary resort, has seduced them into outright rejection of God. The very thing they often seek, intimacy with God, they reject because the thought of being gods gives them warm affirming feelings.
All of this coupled with the fact that they have bought into Satan’s lies and are sometimes rewarded with the appearance of spirit beings locks them in solid to a system that promises much, but can deliver none of it.
John 6:44
So the Mormon temples are monuments to false promises. Jude writing concerning false prophets could have been speaking of the false promises and hopes Mormons place in these white washed sepulchers when he penned the words, “hidden reefs”, “clouds without water”, “carried along by winds”, autumn trees without fruit”, “doubly dead-uprooted”, “wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like form”, “wandering stars”, and then what the end result will be, “for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.”
False prophets promote false hopes and promises. The seductive language and the beautifully sounding words, mask an evil that goes back to the time Lucifer rebelled against God. The ugly twist in religions like Mormonism is that they present a picture that seems “godly” and “beautiful” but is in fact anything but.
The treacherous nature of evil is that it presents itself as something beautiful. This is the case with the Mormon temples that mask the true evil that takes within the walls of these centers of paganism. Mormons think that they are taking part in rituals that are ancient and sacred rites. The fact of the matter is that these rituals have there foundation in the occult world of the founder Joseph Smith.
It’s an intricate web of deceit that the false prophets of Mormonism have weaved. Seduction can be a gradual process whereby the prey is unaware of the danger they are in until it’s too late.
For any Mormon reading this, it is not too late. Rejecting the false god of Mormonism and accepting the One and only God of the universe and His plan of salvation is the answer.
So why and how do people get seduced into thinking that if they go into a Mormon temple, do a sufficient number of rituals, they will, in the end, become gods. A very curious thing in deed. One of the greatest seduction devices in Mormonism is of course, the idea that God has revealed these special promises to “prophets” and, in effect, the rank and file. For someone prone to spirituality, there’s nothing quite as seductive than the idea that God has spoken to them. If this thought is accompanied by strong emotions, the deal is sealed. Thoughts drive emotions, but in the world of Mormonism this is mistaken and flipped. The emotions, in the mind of the Mormon, become the thoughts. They think “If something “feels” good, it must be from God. And He is inspiring me with these thoughts.” Bad mistake on their part. BTW, the people who go through the temple rituals and get bad “feelings” regarding the process are really left in a confused state.
In the book, “The Art of Seduction”, the author Robert Greene shows the reader the rules of the seduction game and demonstrates how to cast a spell, break down resistance and compel a prey to surrender. He points out how a seductive person works on the mind first. They do this by stimulating fantasies, keeping a person wanting more, creating patterns of hope and despair, which is the essence of seduction. For example, men discovered long ago a woman’s weakness for seductive language-soft words. Women, on the other hand, discovered a man’s weakness for dazzling appearance; to stimulate the imagination.
The point of all of this seduction, male or female, is that the object of the seduction grows emotional, loses the ability to think straight, and acts in foolish ways.
Those that train Mormon missionaries know the basics of seduction. That’s why they train the missionaries to create feelings through the use of words. Those feelings then form the basis of the commitment to Mormonism.
Messianic,
I fully accept that most of the major holidays in the western world have pagan origins. If you read carefully I stated that already. The term ‘pagan’ is pretty broad. I believe modern Wiccans draw heavily from Celtic and European sources, but there are plenty of other ‘pagan’ traditions. It can refer to anything non-Abrahamic.
“I would be curious to know what you currently believe if you are not an active LDS?”
I have investigated a form of ‘paganism’ for about the last two years. The mythology of my own cultural heritage has also proven highly interesting. Its so curious learning about all the taboos. It seems to have much the same quality as the various taboos of the jewish religion. Although they are totally different, and completely adapted to another part of the world. As of late I am more attracted to atheism.
I am considering picking up attendance in the Catholic Church. Not because I believe in it, but just so that I fit into the culture I will be moving into. Maybe I will only go long enough to understand it. I made the mistake of not understanding the religion of the people where I live. Its mostly bible literalism, I am not sure they really understand their religion, but just go by what the preacher says.
I am reading A List of the 613 Mitzvot. I didn’t know jews said grace after a meal.
Deut. 8:10
Enki-
Yes, ‘pagan’ is a broad term. But, if you study closely you find all paganism parallel to each other. All of it stems from Nimrod, the great grandson of Noah and the founder of Babylon. Though they were all scattered and attached different names to the same pagan deities they basically are all the same, with the same stories and the same worship of the sun. In fact Abraham himself was born pagan until God drew him out because of His faith.
Atheism would say there is no truth to any of the religions I suppose. So do you believe there is no original origin of the universe? Or are you agnostic, where you are not sure if there is or there is not? Just curious. I find that those who have left Mormonism more often than not end up atheist or agnostic. I can completely understand how one could end up there after being a part of Mormonism.
I agree that many don’t understand their religion and only follow the lead of the men in charge, otherwise why would we have so many that never question why they are doing things. For example, how come Christians never ask, why do we hunt eggs and have a bunny come visit on Easter? Or what is this tree all about that we decorate and sit and admire while we sip our spiced cider at Christmas time? What do these things have to do with Christ? Instead they follow blindly what the church says they should do.
That is what I love about the Messianic movement. It is full of people who started asking questions, reading history, the Bible and learning the ways of those that wrote and received the texts in the Bible. they are people who drew their own conclusions and were led to what I believe to be the truth. In fact I had no idea there was even a movement out there when I started recognizing the truths from studying. There is no founder of the movement, it is just a bunch of people that are united in that they are all seeking for truth and coming together because they find that the truth they are finding is similar to others.
–I am reading A List of the 613 Mitzvot. I didn’t know jews said grace after a meal.
Deut. 8:10–
Yes, this is one of the first things I learned when studying the commandments. It stood out to me because it is so opposite of what I was used to as an Evangelical Christian. After studying a little further I found out that the idea of blessing the actual food before eating it was straight out of paganism. Doesn’t it make more sense to say thank you at the end of the meal than the beginning? Why would you say thank you for something you had not even partaken in yet?:)
By the way thanks for sharing what you believe, I always enjoy hearing others ideas on God and their perceptions of the origin of humanity. It may not mean much to a border line atheist, but I will pray that you are led to the truth.
To the Mods,
I notice that Janet has been given the boot, but I haven’t, even though my post quoted part of her post, which you deleted.
Presumably, its because you judged Janet’s post to be offensive (to me?).
I’m not going to insist on it, but I request that any posts that direct offense at me are NOT deleted; let them stand so the readers can judge for themselves. I do not request that you don’t delete posts that direct offense at other posters.
I know that you expect a certain standard of behavior on this board. Name-calling or speculative defamation is not acceptable.
I would wonder if my remarks about Joseph Smith and Co. could fall into this category, if it weren’t for the abundance of documented evidence surrounding the culture and values of the early Mormon church.
To be honest, I took a couple of days to cool off after my exchange with Janet. I truly hope she has done the same, and I hope we can correspond again in future.
Martin
Martin,
A couple of months ago Bill McKeever made a very straight forward request that the posters maintain a certain level of decorum on this blog. Most of the posters have honored Bill’s request and have not gotten personal with one-and-other. The number of deleted posts and suspensions have been few in number.
I’ve found that if I’m feeling my temperature rise and that I’m getting hooked on an emotional level, I just dial it back and stop interacting with a poster. I even suspend myself from time to time.
Let’s face it, Mormons are in an impossible situation when it comes to defending their faith. The Christian posters have tons of factual evidence to unload and it isn’t long before the Mormons are left with little but to claim persecution or to present a variation of their testimony. Walter Martin said that Mormons can think rationally in all areas of their life except when it comes to their religion. As Christians we’re left baffled by folks who claim a feeling/emotion as proof that God has spoken truth to them. This is especially so since this “god” appears to change his mind on a regular basis. In Mormonism this is exciting because to Mormons it signals “progress”.
So I’m left to ponder the meaning of John 6:44 and what it means in regards to presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those entrenched against it.
I learned an important lesson a long time ago and unfortunately, I keep forgetting it. That lesson comes in the parable of the sower and the seed. We all remember how the sower goes out and broadcasts the seed. That is, he takes the seed in his hand and tosses it upon the ground. The growth of the seed into a healthy plant depends on the type of soil it ends up on. Jesus told his disciples that seed may land beside the road where it is trampled under foot and eaten by birds. Some may fall on rocky soil with the result that it springs up but almost immediately, the plant dies. It has no moisture. That seed the falls among thorns gets choked and dies.
But here’s the deal. The seed that falls on good ground grows-up and produces a bumper crop.
When I was still in the school business, before I retired, part of my job was to develop programs for at risk students; those in danger of failing and dropping out of school. I use to tell people, “I wish I knew up-front who not to waste my time with.” This was because no matter what we’d do to help students, a certain number it seemed were doomed to failure. Sometimes we could predict who would resist our efforts to help them and fail, but often we couldn’t (predict).
So that brings me to John 6:44 and what it means and how to apply the lessons of the parable of the sower and the seed.
Enki and Messianic,
Does Christmas have pagan origins? I know that this is a popular idea that has gained so much acceptance that proof is almost unnecessary. I don’t know that this board is the right place to talk about this (given the topic is Mormon temples and this is completely unrelated) – but since you have been discussing this I thought I would present some contrary evidence to the idea that Christmas stems from a pagan festival and is essentially pagan in origin.
Here is an article that discusses:
http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/19/why-christmas-is-on-december-25/
And where did Santa Claus come from?
http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/06/slappy-christmas-get-to-know-the-real-santa-claus-saint-nicholas/
I have read books on the early Church and their form of worship. I honesty think that the liturgical form of worship seen in SOME Lutheran Churches probably actually resembles early forms of Christian worship. They sing the Psalms, have a cantor who reads/sings Scripture – however many Lutheran Churches have adopted a modern praise band approach to worship, this I think would have been foreign to the early Church. I am not sure if one is right and the other is wrong – but having experienced liturgical style worship on Reformation Day (Oct.31st) done right, if all worship services were like this it would be awesome. It was truly a bold proclamation of the gospel. It started at the back of the a sanctuary with an announcement of the gospel of Christ being shouted, standing against all heresy, a processional to the front and proceeded from there. The sermon was on the law and how we cannot keep it, we are condemned to hell, but for the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness. I heard more about hell in this sermon than in a years worth of sermons in my own Church (it’s almost never mentioned)!
I live on a farm in the midwest. I don’t farm, but rent out the land and I am an observer of the farming process. It goes without saying that farming here and in this day and age is significantly different than when Jesus was preaching his parables.
Around here the farmers go through several steps in preparing the soil before they plant the seed. They really put on a ton of fertilizer and it’s always a treat when the farmer hauls in the liquid manure and spreads it on the fields surrounding our house. I don’t mind the smell all that much because I know it’s only going to last a few days and the benefit of the “product” in keeping the land productive, is worth the temporary inconvenience of the odor.
In one of his epistle Paul wrote about a process of planting seed, watering seed and harvesting the crop. Jesus talked about the fields being white onto harvest and the need for workers who would bring in the crop. I often wonder what we’re doing here on MC with all of our posts. I don’t know sometimes if I’m just emptying the contents of my mind and the efforts are basically futile except, perhaps, benefiting me in some way.
I don’t know if Mormon soil can be prepared intentionally.
John 6:44
Falcon (the farmer)
You’ve got the same disease I do, G-d is patient, we are not. I think you live in a place where you don’t get to see the fruits of your efforts. In the past six months or so, I have run into eight people I have known most of my life, but had lost contact with. These people were all on my list of “Mormons who will never leave the church”. They are all currently in various stages of extracting themselves and their families. When I ask “why?”, they all explained that access to information now available via the internet has been a major factor. A couple of them grinned and said “yep”, when I asked if they had seen the Mormon Coffee site. I recommended MC to the others. Seeds are planted here, and you’ve been planting them for quite a while. It matters.
Falcon and bfwjr
I’m with you guys on the seeds thing. We have no clue what will grow and what won’t (thankfully); but we’re to keep broadcasting it anyway.
Thanks for your thoughts anyway
Martin
Martin, bfwjr, Falcon,
Concerning the planting of seeds in our witness
to our LDS friends, the following is from Pastor
John L.Smith that was printed in his ministry
newsletter relative to “hanging in there” with
his outearch to the Mormon people( this was 20
years ago):
” Perhaps our protestations will be ignored,but
nevertheless, we must try,and try and try again.
There are many who are leaving Mormonism.Many,
many others have insurmountable questions.
There is hope. The Jesus of the Bible does’nt
need a prophet today.(Heb 1:1-2). The church He
started still exists(Matt.16:18). The deliverence
He offers is still available.It is the only hope.
And it works. Nearly a lifetime ago (47 years) I
trusted Him and what He did for me still affects
me.
No polygamy, no changed revelations,no embarrasing
underwear, no complusion to have more kids than
you feel you can take care of, no wild promises of
multiple wives in heaven, no reason to check your
genealogy, no boasts of testimonies or hopes of
godhood, just Jesus! He’s enough! “
Martin,
Your request is noted; however, Janet’s comments were over the top. The rules here are simple (http://blog.mrm.org/comment-policy/). If everyone follows these guidelines there should be no problems.
Bill
Mobaby,
Yes, christmas, easter etc…are off topic, but it is interesting. I have never read the idea that Jesus was conceived and crucified on the same date on the calendar. Its an interesting idea. However, some have noted that the description of the season doesn’t match December 25. Additionally, is the bible ever that keen on birthdays? I think the only time birthdays are mentioned are in references to non-jews or non-christians.
The LDS tradition places April 6th as the date for the birth of Jesus. Which is also the legal founding date of ‘the church of christ’ in 1830. Its not really celebrated directly as such, but the spring general conference is always held near that time.