In what comes as a surprise to many of us, the Salt Lake Tribune is running an article on a new Church leadership project geared at openly engaging theological issues. Starting this General Conference, many of the apostles will engage long-standing theological questions that have bothered both insiders and outsiders. Talks are scheduled on the nature of repentance, the past of God, and exaltation.
Throughout the year, the apostles will also be holding open forums for discussing Mormon theology. The public will have the opportunity to directly ask the prophet and apostles theological questions. CES teachers, BYU professors, and laymen will all have equal opportunity to present questions. Answers will be given from an apostolic panel, and the leadership has committed to being open about important internal disagreements.
Some of the condescending excuses Mormon apologists and BYU professors have given for Mormon leadership not being more direct and active in engaging outstanding theological issues is that they are too busy doing administrative work and not thoughtful enough to navigate the terrain of scripture and historical Mormon theology. The Church apparently aims to reverse this patronizing attitude. Part of the impetus for the project was a desire on the part of Church leadership to not let non-official groups do important theological work for them. In the press conference Boyd K. Packer said, “We simply have no good excuse to let other groups do our theology for us. The Brethren are led by the Spirit of the Lord and with His help are fully capable. The time is now to stop depending on groups with which we enjoy plausible deniability. Before the Lord, we need to own our theology.”
President Monson also made it clear that First Presidency statements will be soon forthcoming, and that they will be specifically focused on clarifying Mormon doctrine. Monson explained, “If we can spend the time to specify that ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually’ in D&C 119 refers to income [First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970], then surely we can take the time to issue statements on far more important issues.”
I asked some of my committed Mormon friends what they thought of the new project, and they were excited. Mormon author Peter Presthud (for various Cedar Fort publications) beamed, “Thank the Lord for continuing revelation!”
But when I asked the Mormon intellectual crowd what they thought of this new initiative, and the opinion was mixed. In private some told me were relieved that they wouldn’t have to keep making so many excuses for the Mormon Church. One Mormon intellectual told me,
“Theology matters. But ever since I learned what kind of mess the Church has created, I’ve had to focus on the idea that theology doesn’t matter much at all. I’ve also had to work hard at helping people take Mormon scholars more seriously than the poor old prophets and apostles. From time to time when a speaker at one of our conferences quotes our leaders as though anything they say is authoritative, we wince and and feel sorry for him. One of the ways one can most discredit themselves in our line of Mormon intellectual work is to assume anything the LDS Church or its leaders say is definitive. Hopefully this new initiative will change the entire mindset of our field.”
Mormon apologist Bruce Gordon Peterson expressed pessimism, explaining that whenever Mormon prophets have tried to speak authoritatively and definitively on controversial matters of theology, the results have been embarrassing. He pointed me to a 2006 statement by Blake Ostler, who said,
“I personally believe that [Brigham Young’s] theology was a disaster for the most part — tho I like his emphasis on God as a person and not merely a title or essence as the basis of our worship.” (>>)
We’ll keep you posted on any developments. April 1, 2010 will go down in the books as an important milestone in Mormon history.
Oh man my mind was racing in all sorts of directions as I read the above article. I got to the end and it confirmed in part what I’d been thinking that the Mormon apostles and prophets are a walking theological disaster as it applies to their own religion. My guess is that they will create a huge mess because except for speaking out generic words of encouragement, they are clueless and it seems that the “intellectuals” know it.
I would suggest that they hall out Joe’s magic rock, put it in a hat and when considering a question shove their face(s) down in it tight and see what kind of an answer comes forth. That’s about as reliable and consistent as Mormonism is anyway.
What a treat for the faithful is coming. Their leaders are going to clear things up. Brace for a coming disaster…..in Mormon terms. For us it will be quite entertaining I’m sure. Hope they reinstated BY’s adam-god doctrine and maybe “limited” polygamy.
I agree, what a treat! How terrific for the LDS authorities themselves to put in black and white what Mormonism IS! What a treat for the faithful to have it plainly announced again, instead of feeling they need to hide or place different emphasis on some of the Mormon doctrine they have believed true!
It’s time for the LDS religion to STAND UP for what they believe, in no uncertain terms, and let the world know!
When it comes down to it, there really are few differences anyway between Mormonism and Christianity. Making this bold move by the Brethren is going to help the world realize how so-together we all really are. Once the leadership understands this, I’m hoping the First Presidency will cease the ban of non-recommend holders doing temple work. Allowing anyone worthy to use the temple is the next step to having Christians recognize Mormonism for what it really is: Biblical Christianity! Everyone deserves a chance to get this vital work accomplished.
April fools.
At first I thought “how long until they step on a landmine and rethink this new strategy,” but as I neared the end I realized it is April 1st – the leadership of the Mormon Church has no intention of leading. This has got to be a joke. And then I saw the Grinch in the comments – confirmed.
Aaron you’re a mean one Mr. Grinch! This was the crowning glory of the piece:
“April 1, 2010 will go down in the books as an important milestone in Mormon history”
Nicely done!
Ha ha, almost had me until the last sentence! Then I remembered what you did last year. Good one!!
Well our friend the Falcon fell for it line, hook and sinker.
Chuckle.
Janet.
Actually I did fall for it and it was a great harmless prank with way too much truth in it. At least it isn’t as bad as falling for Mormonism where the end results will be spiritual destruction and eternity separated from God.
I’m wondering if Joseph Smith pulled his golden plates prank on April Fools Day. It would have been quite appropriate; wouldn’t you think?
No chuckle here. Mormonism is a prank that has too many serious consequences for those who fall for it!
So you say, when will you ever provide hard evidence or facts that the Golden Plates never existed? You talk the talk, but the seriousness of this Restored Gospel is more important then just you saying it is Spiritual Destruction. I’m sure our viewers would love to get beyond the rhetoric and usual talking points.
Janet.
Ha ha,
…very funny…
…but very true.
Aaron, is there a “real” Peter Presthud, an anonymous Mormon Intellectual, and Bruce Gordon Peterson out there?
Peter Presthud’s gotta be fictitious!
Mind you, I thought Cardinal Sin was fictitious, until I found out that he was the highest ranking Catholic Priest in the Phillipines
…also the fellow who ran the naval gun batteries in Plymouth – Colonel P. Shooter…
Janet, you can make fun of falcon and claim he fell for the joke, but the sad reality is, the LDS church will never take a stand on their ever changing doctrine. Supposedly these guys have “on going revelation” and are direct mouth pieces for God, yet despite this, we will never get honest and clear answers, do you know why Janet? Because your church is based upon fraud and lies. Rick b
I think Aaron did a great job on his April Fool’s joke and it got me to thinking about what was Joseph Smith’s greatest religious prank. So I went to Fawn Brodie’s book “No Man Knows My History” and on page 37 found this:
“About a year after Joseph’s marriage, rumor spread through Palmyra that he had unearthed an extraordinary treasure from the big hill on the turnpike just outside Manchester. No two of Joseph’s neighbors had the same version of the story. Peter Ingersoll, who claimed to be Joseph’s confidant, had a savagely cynical account. One day Joseph had taken home some fine white sand tied up in his frock, and his family, seated around the dinner table, asked him what he was carrying. ‘At that moment,’ he is said to have told Ingersoll, ‘I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refused to see it, and left the room. Now,’ he concluded, ‘I have got the d_d fools fixed, and will carry out the fun.’ One thing, however, puzzled Ingersoll. ‘Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.”
This would all be pretty funny as a prank except for the fact that way too many people have fallen for it and the result is their spiritual destruction.
Another one of Smith’s great pranks was when he told one of the Mormon babes he was hitting on that an angel with a sword appeared to him and threatened to kill him if he didn’t start “marrying” more women. I don’t know if that’s a great cult leader pick-up line or not but it obviously worked.
I would also say that his on going, ever changing versions of his first vision might also qualify under the prank category although it probably would be better classified as a “fish” story.
Who was that guy that pulled that great prank on the LDS apostles…….thinking……thinking….ah yes, Mark Hoffman, right? Now was that a prank? When is a prank not a prank? Well I guess when it becomes a scam. What’s a scam? When you’re ripping people off in some way and you know it. So when Joseph Smith was running around with his magic rock with his band of merry men and women, was it a prank, a scam or something else. I guess it would come down to if Smith really thought there was buried treasure and he could find it with his magic rock. If he believed it to be true, then that would be something else entirely. I think that might be called a delusion.
Now back to Mark Hoffman. He told these great seers, revelators and all around sharp LDS cookies that he had these Smith documents. I think, if memory serves me right, they were called the Salamander Letters or some such thing. And I believe the motivation of the LDS pooh bahs had something to do with Smith saying he was looking for the golden plates and the guy guarding them turned into a toad or something, I’m not clear but that’s either a prank or a scam in and of itself.
Well this thing with Mark Hoffman got really sticky and quite embarrassing for the Mormon church since it turned out that the leaders had gotten “punked” and didn’t know it and I think there was some money involved. So much for the revelating seers.
I think Hoffman is still in prison somewhere in Utah. I don’t know if he is given work-release privileges to perform duties in the Mormon church archives or not.
Man am I on a roll here with the rememberences coming fast and furious. Wasn’t it past president, apostle, prophet, seer and revelator Gordon B. Hinkly (is that how his name is spelled?) when asked on Larry King live if Mormons believed that they will become gods said something like, “I don’t know that we’ve ever taught that.” Now that can’t be a prank so is it a scam. Well according to my definition in order for it to be a scam the person would have to know that what they are saying/doing is false. So maybe Gordon B. didn’t know that the Mormon church teaches that men can become gods. It’s possible. There are all kinds of folks who get that tidbit of inconsequential information with held from them. See than Gordon B. could have plausible deniability.
None-the-less it is true that the Mormon church teaches it and it is also true that Gordon B. did the big “dah” when asked. No April Fools attached to that one I guess!
Janet,
“So you say, when will you ever provide hard evidence or facts that the Golden Plates never existed?”
Can you provide proof that Santa Clause never existed?
I fell for it, thinking “wow” this is great…and whoa, what a problem this will create. I fell for the LDS church, but even as a child I had serious doubts. I didn’t want to get baptized at 8, I was really, really scared. The first time I heard of plural marriage I felt that was wrong. Of course my parents, especially my father really pushed that ‘its true’ no matter what I thought. And of course attending LDS church services is a total set up for ‘its true’, peer pressure to the max…
If there’s any doubt that Mormon thinking (and I use the term thinking loosely here) is a brand all its own? Examine the challenge to prove that something never existed. This ladies and gentleman is the type of thinking that draws people into and maintains them in cults! Let’s see what else can we apply it to? Prove that Tarzan never existed. Wait, he did exist. I saw him in a movie. Ah, is there another one? Prove that Hercules never existed. Nuts, I saw Steve Reeves play him in a movie also so he must have existed. Prove that Big Foot never existed. Oh boy, shot down there to. According to Mormon lore he’s the descendant of Cain. That’s another thing that got left out of the Bible during the great apostasy. OK, prove that the mighty warrior Zelph never existed. Well prove that the Book of Abraham never existed. That’s easy. It has been proven. Just Joe playing fast and loose with some Egyptian burial parchments. It doesn’t matter because…..therefore the (Mormon) church is true.
Falcon,
Its funny but there is a webpage:
“Did a historical Jesus exist? by Jim Walker”
It is interesting that this author actually asks if a belief in Hercules isn’t reasonable. Its interesting that Hercules is mentioned by Joesphus, actually more times than Jesus, and actually in the same work Jesus was mentioned! Tacitus also mentions Hercules many times. I imagine that there could be a few people on earth that believe in Hercules.
Janet,
If the LDS church is advancing the idea that the Golden plates existed, its up to that body to provide convincing evidence of that. Its a bit odd to state the idea that someone has to prove that it didn’t exist. It seems unlikely given what is known about the Americas.
One has to just laugh when we see the likes of a Peter Ingersoll, a hostile source, being used as factual gibberish.
Here we have a statement alleged to have been made by Joseph Smith that “no man can see it with the naked eye and live.” However, we also see that, according to Peter Ingersoll, Joseph came up with the entire idea of the “golden bible” on the spur of the moment as a way to have “fun.” Then he claims that Joseph confided to him that the plates didn’t actually exist at all. There are so many inconsistencies between this story and the statements of numerous other witnesses that one wonders if Peter Ingersoll was the one who was having some “fun” with his audience. Ingersoll can also be discredited on his claim that Joseph made the story up on the spot, because Joseph was telling various people about his Moroni visits well before recovering the plates (see for example various Knight family recollections).
Hugh W. Nibley, Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass:
by W. John Walsh
If Church leaders are true prophets, why didn’t the Lord reveal that the Mark Hoffman documents were forgeries?
In the 1980’s, a man named Mark Hoffman created a number of forged documents, some of which were purchased by the Church. One of the most famous was the so-called “Salamander Letter.” Anti-Mormons occasionally attack the validity of the Church because Church leaders did not know all the documents were fraudulent. John A. Tvedtnes noted:
“[Anti-Mormons] ask why “the Mormon leaders,” as prophets, did not detect the fraud perpetrated on the Church by Mark Hoffman (p. 19). The answer lies in Joseph Smith’s declaration that “a prophet was a prophet only when acting as such.” I presume that President Hinckley need not have been exercising prophetic gifts when he made business purchases for the Church. Moreover, we have, in the Bible, examples of prophets who believed lies (Joshua 9:3–27; 1 Kings 13:14–19). As human beings, even prophets can make mistakes, though when they act as prophet and president we should accept their word and live accordingly.” (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, p.210)
It’s important to understand that God, not Church leaders, is omnipotent and omniscient (i.e., all powerful and all knowing). While Church leaders are true prophets and apostles, they are only blessed with inspiration inasmuch as (1) they ask for it, and (2) the Lord chooses to give it to them. People who believe that prophets are omniscient have a flawed understanding of the workings of the Lord. Only God is perfect and free from all error.
When asked on Larry King live if Mormons believed that they will become gods said something like, “I don’t know that we’ve ever taught that.”
Gordon B. Hinckley replied that he was being asked about the The King Follett Discourse, this is not part of our Standard works, so Hinckley was stating a truth.
Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follett discourse by the Prophet.
Hinckley: Yeah
Q: … about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
Hinckley: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
Janet.
Enki,
I knew Hercules existed! When I thought about it, it made me feel good. That always works as a test of truth.
Excuse me, I have to go lift weights now!
Janet said <bThe answer lies in Joseph Smith’s declaration that “a prophet was a prophet only when acting as such.”
Can you show me that from the bible? JS and the LDS church say a lot of stuff they can then turn to when they make false prophecies or things that do not line up with the word. Rick b
(Joshua 9:3–27; 1 Kings 13:14–19). As human beings, even prophets can make mistakes, though when they act as prophet and president we should accept their word and live accordingly.”
3 But when the inhabitants of mGibeon heard what Joshua had done nto Jericho and oto Ai, 4 they on their part acted with cunning and went and made ready provisions and took worn-out sacks for their donkeys, and wineskins, worn-out and torn and mended, 5 with worn-out, patched sandals on their feet, and worn-out clothes. And all their provisions were dry and crumbly. 6 And they went to Joshua in pthe camp at Gilgal and said to him and to the men of Israel, “We have come from a distant country, so now make a covenant with us.” 7 But the men of Israel said to qthe Hivites, “Perhaps you live among us; then rhow can we make a covenant with you?” 8 They said to Joshua, s“We are your servants.” And Joshua said to them, “Who are you? And where do you come from?” 9 They said to him, t“From a very distant country your servants have come, because of the name of the Lord your God. uFor we have heard a report of him, and all that he did in Egypt, 10 vand all that he did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon the king of Heshbon, and to Og king of Bashan, who lived in wAshtaroth. 11 So our elders and all the inhabitants of our country said to us, ‘Take provisions in your hand for the journey and go to meet them and say to them, “We are your servants. Come now, make a covenant with us.” ’ 12 Here is our bread. It was still warm when we took it from our houses as our food for the journey on the day we set out to come to you, but now, behold, it is dry and crumbly. 13 These wineskins were new when we filled them, and behold, they have burst. And these garments and sandals of ours are worn out from the very long journey.” 14 So the men took some of their provisions, but xdid not ask counsel from the Lord. 15 And Joshua ymade peace with them and made a covenant
15 And Joshua ymade peace with them and made a covenant with them, to let them live, and the leaders of the congregation swore to them.
16 At the end of three days after they had made a covenant with them, they heard that they were their neighbors and that they lived among them. 17 And the people of Israel set out and reached their cities on the third day. Now their cities were Gibeon, Chephirah, Beeroth, and Kiriath-jearim. 18 But the people of Israel did not attack them, because the leaders of the congregation had sworn to them by the Lord, the God of Israel. Then all the congregation murmured against the leaders. 19 But all the leaders said to all the congregation, “We have sworn to them by the Lord, the God of Israel, and now we may not touch them. 20 This we will do to them: let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath that we swore to them.” 21 And the leaders said to them, “Let them live.” So they became cutters of wood and drawers of water for all the congregation, just as the leaders had said of them.
22 Joshua summoned them, and he said to them, “Why did you deceive us, saying, ‘We are very far from you,’ when gyou dwell among us? 23 Now therefore you are cursed, and some of you shall never be anything but servants, cutters of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.” 24 They answered Joshua, “Because it was told to your servants for a certainty that the Lord your God had commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you—so we feared greatly for our lives because of you and did this thing. 25 And now, behold, we are in your hand. Whatever seems good and right in your sight to do to us, do it.” 26 So he did this to them and delivered them out of the hand of the people of Israel, and they did not kill them. 27 But Joshua made them that day cutters of wood and drawers of water for the congregation and for the altar of the Lord, to this day, in the
27 But Joshua made them that day cutters of wood and drawers of water for the congregation and for the altar of the Lord, to this day, lin the place that he should choose.
Janet, Showing me a guy in the Bible not seeking the lord is not the same as the Lord saying, If you do not act as a prophet then you are not.
Plus if you go back and read the entire Bible for context it says in Deuteronomy, chapter seven, God commands them not to make any covenant with those in the land. So this is a case of someone disobeying the Lord, not a person not acting as a prophet of the Lord.
That would be like how the Bible teaches, ONE WIFE, Yet JS prayed Lord can I have many wives, and the Lord say, You MUST take many or I will kill you and you must have many to become a god.
The Lord was clear and spoke, so if we supposedly hear from Him, but He is going against what He already said, then it is in fact a false jesus we are hearing from. So no, your verses do not support your theory, Nice try, but try again. Rick b
Rick,
You have just been treated to Mormon Bible scholarship which is a breed of cat all its own and would get laughed out of legitimate Christian religion (scholarship)circles. But that simply makes Mormons think they are so very insightful in their proclamations. They follow no standardized rules of Biblical exegesis or interpretation relying on their nebulous personal revelation to confirm what they want to and already believe. I don’t know why they even mess with the Bible anyway because it’s a corrupted Book in their view.
But this is Mormon tradition. Just fly-by-the-seat of your pants and claim that God has revealed it to you. And, like the JWs, if it doesn’t work out, just claim that you now have more “light” or a new revelation. These are really flakey people and very confident in their assertions. That’s a bad combination.
As you know, this wild speculation and free flow of consciousness is a well honored tradition in Mormonism. They are religiously creative people.
“Always an eclectic, Joseph never exhausted any theory he had appropriated. He seized a fragment here and another there and of the odd assortment built his history.” (No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie p. 72)
The bottom line with Mormonism, as with any heretical or aberrant cult, is the desire to believe something. This desire coupled with strong emotions is what drives the true believers to any explanation no matter how bizarre. The more kookie the better. It serves as confirmation that only they have special insight and understanding. So that’s why we get these fanciful and “creative” uses of the Biblical text.
lol.
I guessed it was an April fool’s prank afoter the first couple of sentences, but I’ll grant it would be very interesting if it were real…
chanson,
Welcome to the blog. Nice to have you post here.
Rick,
Guys like you and I and the rest of the Christian gang here at MC serve as a major buzz kill for the Mormons. As long as they’re wandering about their Wards proclaiming and testifying and wildly speculating, life is good. But when they come here, we hold them accountable to a certain standard of scholarship and that’s no fun. It’s a lot more fun and emotionally rewarding to wax eloquent on all sort of matters within the LDS family. That’s why we get Joseph Smith proclaiming that there are men walking around on the moon that are six feet tall and dressed like Pilgrims. Nobody questions these guys and hence we have a whole warehouse full of embarrassing and frivolous statements by the Mormon prophets, seers, revelators and all round spiritual giants. When they were isolated out in Utah in the good old days, only the LDS folks were privy to the stuff. Now with the internet, it’s a whole new ballgame. That’s why they don’t say much anymore beside keep the word of wisdom and pay your tithe.
So what happens in Mormonism, with the JWs and also within certain Christian sects, is that the Bible becomes to confining. Discipline and a healthy skeptical attitude become the enemies of direct revelation from God. Without the anchor of the Biblical text, folks leave themselves wide open to every fad, inclination and philosophical musings by anyone claiming to be a prophet or having the gift of prophecy.
These wandering stars of idle speculation want people to doubt something however. What they want people to do is doubt the veracity of the Bible. Once that is accomplished creative interpretation and application of the text become standard operating procedure. The Bible is merely useful as far as it rubber stamps what someone already believes or wants to believe. Hence we get Mormons defending Joseph Smith’s adultery and his departure from normative orthodox Christianity to something more to his liking.
Falcon said Rick,
Guys like you and I and the rest of the Christian gang here at MC serve as a major buzz kill for the Mormons.
If Mormons think I am a buzz kill, go check out http://www.interested01.blogspot.com
I am in a no holds barred match with a God hating atheist, He was so mad at me, he started calling me names and other stuff, So How did I handle that?
I asked him if I touched a nerve and offered him some tissue. LOL, Rick b
“That’s why we get Joseph Smith proclaiming that there are men walking around on the moon that are six feet tall and dressed like Pilgrims.”
Could anyone that is interested in truth please reveal the source or reference of the above.
Janet.
Janet, Reference the above what? It could be anyone of us your talking about. If your talking about me, I told you already where to look and what to read. Rick b
Well I believe our Mormon poster made a big deal of being a seeker after truth….which is a joke because if a Mormon were a seeker after truth, they wouldn’t be a Mormon any more.
I left the reference out on purpose…..just for fun. Go find it yourself, but be careful, it won’t make you feel good, which of course means that it can’t be true and you should run away from it as fast as you can. So much for truth seeking.
Sad as it is, I also believe Most mormons are not really seeking after the truth. I know some after many, many years find the truth,praise God for that. But sadly many find ways to refute the truth. Rick b
What is wrong with verification?
Did not the poster boast, ” But when they come here, we hold them accountable to a certain standard of scholarship and that’s no fun.”
Janet.
“I left the reference out on purpose…..just for fun. Go find it yourself, but be careful, it won’t make you feel good, which of course means that it can’t be true and you should run away from it as fast as you can. So much for truth seeking.”
Yep, so much for truth criticizers.
Janet.
See here’s the difference, the Christian posters bury the Mormons in information, evidence and “verification” and guess what, it’s an excuse a minute from the Mormons about how it doesn’t count for one reason or another. So I think our track record is good. I’ve posted this several times over the years with the source.
The source is a Mormon publication. It’s not that hard to find as is all of the information that proves that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and that Mormonism is not the real deal! It’s just a matter of seeking the truth.
Janet asked a direct question
…the direct answer is that we have discussed this “revelation” from Jospeph Smith here before, including all the sources and references. Please see…
http://blog.mrm.org/2009/02/inhabitants-of-the-moon-truth-or-fiction/
Though I’ll have to correct falcon on this; they weren’t dressed like Pilgrims, they were dressed like Quakers. Big difference (not).
“I knew Hercules existed! When I thought about it, it made me feel good. That always works as a test of truth.Excuse me, I have to go lift weights now!”
As back up, there is always Josephus and Tacitus. Please continue your workout.
So what is the REAL truth?
According to a close ally and disciple of his [Joseph Smith’s], Oliver B. Huntington, people like the 19th-Century Quakers resided within the moon. Writing a short, one-page article in an 1892 Mormon Church publication, Young Women’s Journal (3:262), this is what Huntington reported:
“Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet (of God).
“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this Earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do–that they live generally to near the age of 1,000 years.
“He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.
“In my Patriarchal Blessing,” given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland (Ohio), 1837, “I was told that I would preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and–to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”
Oliver B. Huntington, re-telling a story he remembers from 1837.
Who actually gave him the Blessing, was it the Father of JS or his own father?
So to our viewers, we have a poster stating the following, “” But when they come here, we hold them accountable to a certain standard of scholarship and that’s no fun.”
Were any of these pronouncements recorded during JS lifetime, no.
Also Huntington was not one of JS scribes.
He also did not record this story anytime during JS lifetime.
Janet
Close examination reveals that Huntington was only ten years old when he was given this blessing and that his recollections were made over fifty years later. Also, it turns out that the blessing was given by his own father, not Joseph Smith’s father.
According to a copy of the blessing in the Church archives (Blessing Book, vol.9, pp.294-95), it was only one of many given the same day at the same meeting, and none were recorded in detail at the time. Orson Pratt took sketchy notes as the blessings were given, then filled in details later by consulting those who were there. An examination of the blessing shows that the recorded blessing was much more vague than Huntington remembered. Reference, Stephen W. Gibson
I would ask our Mormon a question that should help her in her continual quest for the “TRUTH”. Here it is, you’ll like it. It’s so Mormon. “Prove that Joseph Smith did not say that six foot men dressed like Quakers inhabit the moon.”
That will keep the Mormon posters busy running down all sorts of rabbit trails; that they like to send Christians.
This is, after all, really important stuff that any truth seeker needs to spend time on. When finished with that try examining the nature of God. Getting that right determines eternal destiny.
But chase away and while you’re at it, see if you can find if Brigham Young said that men lived on the sun! Better yet, prove he never said it!
Martin,
Your comment made me think of an old joke; given the fact that it’s April and here as I look out at the landscape of my midwest farm with a little rain falling and the tulips trying to poke their heads out of the ground.
Joke: If April showers bring May flowers, what do May flowers bring?…….Ready?…..Pilgrims!
Honorable Judge:
“So let me see, you state that the accused has been going around making outlandish claims of men on the Moon, six feet tall, looking and acting like Quakers and you have brought forward evidence proving that the Moon is vacant, and with out any human life. I have read through this evidence, (“Vacant Moon”), and find it most accurate. But what is bothersome and quiet evident is you have as of yet not provide any evidence that this man ever said such things.”
Accusers:
“But your honor, it was written up in one of their favorite magazines some 50 plus years later, the witness was all of ten years old and he has a very sharp memory. Even had a blessing by JS Father stating such, but his memory is a little weak here since the records actually show that It was his own father who gave that blessing. ”
Honorable Judge:
I see, so what your stating is based on one witness, who never wrote of this until some 50 years later, and you can not provide any other documents written by the accused, JS, you wish me to make a judgement. Is that correct?
Accusers:
“Well, Most honorable Judge, here is how we would wish you to judge this, “Here it is, you’ll like it. It’s so Mormon. “Prove that Joseph Smith did not say that six foot men dressed like Quakers inhabit the moon.”
That will keep the Mormon posters busy running down all sorts of rabbit trails; that they like to send Christians.”
Honorable Judge:
Case dismissed on grounds of frivolous and wasteful time of this Court. I would warn any and all people out there foolish enough to find you creditable to go back to La La land, and purchase for all their friends and neighbors, free tickets to Alice in Wonderland where one can find the unbelievable seem to come true, and yes in 3D also.
Janet 🙂
Accuser:
“But your honor, we are not yet finished with our accusations. We also present the following, we would ask that these silly Mormons while there at it, see if they can find if Brigham Young said that men lived on the sun! Better yet, prove he never said it!” We have them here and can possibly prove it out of context though and yes he did give the disclaimer, So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. “Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is.” BY. Even thought it seems to be an opinion we feel that since it was part of a sermon it must have been more then an opinion, for you see it is our opinion that his opinion gave weight to this opinion since he was in the opinion of our Mormon friends a Prophet of the Lord. So your Honor what is your opinion?
Honorable Judge:
Seems since you have credibility problems already with your first accusation about JS, the court finds that your second criticism is pointless unless you can prove that you’re not just wasting the time of this Court which seem to most viewers you are. By the way, have you got any of those Alice in Wonderland tickets left, I would love to take my wife to see some real fiction.
Janet 🙂