If God the Father has a Father, and if the concept of “Godhead” isn’t infinitely expandable to include all Gods, then our Father belongs to two Godheads, one of which Jesus is not a part of. If God the Father does have a Father, and if the Godhead is infinitely inclusive of all exalted Gods, then the Godhead that is “one” is potentially comprised of an infinite number of Gods.
Also, if Jesus becomes a Heavenly Father with his own “Firstborn Son”, and if the concept of “Godhead” isn’t infinitely inclusive of all Gods, then Jesus will belong to a Godhead that our Father doesn’t belong to.
If the concept of “Godhead” isn’t infinitely inclusive of all Gods, just how many Godheads can a God in the Mormon universe belong to?
Can you imagine Jesus saying to the Father, “I’ll be hanging out with my other Godheads this weekend”?
To revisit 1 Corinthians 8 (KJV):
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[6] But to us there is but 1 God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; & 1 Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
& then from 1 Corinthians 15:
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] & when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
& lastly from John 17:
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be 1; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be 1 in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] & the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be 1, even as we are 1:
[23] I in them, & thou in me, that they may be made perfect in 1; & that the world may know that thou hast sent me, & hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
It’s not at all difficult to see how these scriptures suggest on the one hand a hierarchy in heaven, & on the other, the participation in a shared henotheism as the ultimate eschatology for righteous humanity. (& why Orthodox Christians have always rejected Augustine.)
It’s also scriptures like these that have led secular academics to stop assuming words & concepts like “monotheism” & “theism” into the text of the NT, as well as into most Jewish literature from late antiquity & before.
mutu.
So which position are you taking, mantis, that of many Godheads, or just one giant Godhead with millions of upper-case-G Gods?
But to answer the question, 1 Corinthians 8 gives all the reason why Mormons don’t speculate on (or worship) any being who MAY stand higher/previous in the heavens than the eternal Father of our spirits and creation.
The transparency and simplicity of this biblical response causes me believe that this oft-repeated question/challenge is typically given in the spirit of mockery rather than understanding. That the Mormon response doesn’t satisfy believers in the Book is beyond me. Even those who can’t except the theology behind it.
For me, as for Paul, it’s not a question to speculate on, Aaron.
mutu.
That’s a different, but related matter. Please answer the question:
Which position are you taking, mantis, that of many Godheads, or just one giant Godhead with millions of upper-case-G Gods? Does your Father belong to one or many Godheads?
Or put it this way: If the Father has a Father, does that indicate the existence of multiple Godheads, or simply that the Godhead has more than three Gods?
Or at the very least, if we can become Gods, does that indicate the existence of multiple Godheads, or simply that the Godhead has more than three Gods?
mantis
“to revisit 1 Corinthians 8”
have you read the verses prior to verse 6 perhaps?
Let’s get them up here for everyone to look at.
1 Cor 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
.
Are there that are “called gods” on heaven and earth? Sure. That’s Paul’s whole point here. They’re called gods, but they’re not, so who cares if you eat the food offered them! (unless, of course, it offends a brother weak in the faith)
Is he afraid to speculate? HAHAHHAHAAAAAHA
no. Paul said “WE KNOW” that there is ONLY ONE GOD.
Since I believe in a God who has not explicitly disclosed the existence of beings higher than Himself, then I really care not to speculate on the matter, lest I be led into discussion that mars an honest reflection of my worship and belief.
Just as Evangelicals are free to keep separate in their hearts, minds, and conversations the categories of Cosmic Science VS Cosmic Science Fiction VS Cosmic Theology VS Cosmic Worship, so too do Mormons. If I thought this forum and conversation intended to respect these mental and spiritual freedoms, then I’d be inclined to offer an answer. Given the details of Mormon theology & liturgy, it’s really not that hard a question to arrive at an answer to, and I’d even imagine that most informed outsiders like yourself could guess what nearly all Mormons would likely believe.
But I don’t sense the level of respect here to go into this conversation, so my answer will remain mine. No offense, it’s certainly not the form of religion claimed by either you or Sharon (or any of the posters frequenting this site) that causes my decline.
mutu.
Mantis, affirming the existence of a heavenly grandfather isn’t necessary to answer this part of my question:
If we can become Gods, does that indicate the existence of multiple Godheads, or simply that the Godhead has more than three Gods?
In other words, if you, mantis, become a God worshiped by 60 billion of your own spirit children, will you have your own distinct Godhead from other Godheads that your particular God belongs to, or will you belong to a Godhead that is inclusive of all Gods?
setfree, I agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 8:4-5, but I must admit that I’m not sure I follow the humor that you find in it.
I merely quoted it to demonstrate why Mormons worship and acknowledge only one God. Paul’s passage does not clearly establish Theism or Monotheism any more than it disqualifies either.
More than a few non-Mormon scholars read it as proof of Henotheism, with Christ the Lord as head of both humanity and of the Father’s angelic host.
mutu.
Mantis, answer my question or leave this thread. Thank you.
Aaron, I understood your question. And it is the very question that you ask that I imagine you fully capable to responding to in behalf of the Mormons you know so well. The fact that you ask the question shows that you are capable of answering it.
The Mormon speculation of plural Powers in heaven hinges in part on the non-liturgical declarations given by Joseph Smith’s in the King Follet sermon (a sermon that has likely kept us from drifting into the theologies of traditional Christianity that press so hard for conformity).
However, within Mormonism, it is the far more concrete liturgical revelations concerning NOT God–but MAN–and his relationship to God–that is largely the basis for the Mormon speculation concerning the plurality of Powers in heaven.
As exists God’s heavenly Being and society, so is it reflected in the earthly being and society of humanity established by God. As in heaven, so on earth; that is the message of the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ restored to Joseph Smith.
And in that statement lies the answer to you question. As you knew already.
mutu.
The fact is that Mormons cannot even define their godhead when they honestly look at the history of their theology. The different views of the godhead of the many versions of the 1st vision account do not match the sometimes trinitarian, sometimes modalist, sometimes unitarian god of the BoM. Nor do those accounts match the godhead of the KFD and JS’s teaching on the nature of God that obviously became convoluted as they evolved. BY had the most detailed teachings of the Mormon godhead in his many Adam-God-Jehovah-Michael discourses, but since the writing of Jesus the Christ in 1916 the LDS church has chosen to remain silent about the teachings of JS and BY, while proclaiming that Heavenly Father is the head god, while Jehovah/Jesus is the god through whom HF created the world, etc. As we see from Mutu’s response, “I won’t speculate”, the LDS church has just chosen not to attempt to defend the indefensible, leaving their members like Mutu scrambling for “I’m so enlightened, unlike you fools” higher ground. The bible, on the other hand, unashamedly declares YHWH to be God of gods and Lord of lords (Deut 10:17, Psalm 136:2-3), meaning that if there were other so-called gods, He would be the first and greatest. YHWH declares throughout the bible (Deut 32:39, Isaiah 41:4, 43:10, etc.) that He is the only God and knows of no others. According to the clear statements of our great God and savior YHWH (aka Adonai in Hebrew readings, Kurios in the LXX, the LORD in OT English translations, and Lord in the NT), he is the only God and there is no other.
Funny how the LDS cannot or will not answer this question. Here is a huge problem, God in the Bible says their are no gods formed before me or after me, and I know of no other Gods.
The Bible tells us God cannot lie and it is impossible for God to lie, Yet the LDS try to get around that verse by saying what God really means is, their are no other Gods that we must worship. I say, Really? Thats not what God said, but funny how the LDS seem to know what God really said, even though thats not what he said.
Then in the Pearl of great price,The Book of Moses God says, their are no other gods that I know of, but then in the Book of Abraham God says, I sat in the counsel of the gods. So God just lied. Rick b
Mantis Mutu,
You said,
” Since I believe in a God who has not explictly
disclosed the existence of beings higher than
Himself, then I really care not to speculate
on the matter…”
I find this to be a rather interesting statement
given the fact that although you feel that God
has’nt disclosed this information about other
Gods, many of your prophets and apostles would
disagree with you.
The insights into scriptural interpretation that
Joseph Smith claimed, these he taught his inner
circle, his apostles.He mentored them. After his
death they taught these truths to their people,
saw fit to publish them and send them out.
One such doctrine was that Heavenly Father has a
God/father above Him.
Related to this doctrine is the fact that since
you worship a man who attained His present status
as Almighty God, then you also,can attain to this
status and that would mean that you will be
worshipped as Almighty God (on another earth) by
your children. Can I share with you where LDS
authorities have preached this, where Church
curriculim teaches this? Does it really matter?
I must admit that quite often I just want to throw my hands up and say to Mormons, “How can you be so totally ignorant when it comes to the doctrine of the nature of God?” I really wouldn’t even mess around with them if it weren’t for the fact that they run around claiming to have restored Christianity and chase their boy missionaries up and down the streets of America and other countries proclaiming this nonsense. If Mormons would spend some time reading and studying the actual history of the Christian Church and the writings of the Church Fathers, then we could have a reasonable discussion. But here they are following after a man with a magic rock who claimed special revelation and taught that those who followed his plan would become gods. Mormons, in their own ignorance, have been hooked into a preposterous con, and they love it.
In an article titled “Surprised by Orthodoxy” (excerpted from his book: “The Rebirth of Orthodoxy: Signs of New Life in Christianity”)Thomas C. Oden recounts a challenge that a Jewish mentor gave him. “Tom, you have not yet met the great minds of your own tradition. Just as I after my Communist days, found it decisive to read the Talmud and the Midrashim carefully to discover who I was as a Jew, you will have to sit at the feet of the ancient Christian writers to discover who you are as a possible person of faith. Without solid textual grounding, you will become lost in supposed relevance. If you are going to deepen to become a working theologian instead of a know-it-all contemporary pundit, you had best get at it.”
The words “solid textual grounding” are the key words here. When people proudly proclaim that they are receiving on-going, progressive revelation from a deity, they enter the world of spiritual subjectivism. These folks claim that the voices that whisper in their head and the feelings they get as confirmation, are so much more superior than those who pursue spiritual enlightenment as an intellectual exercise.
From what we are taught there are only 3 personages in the Godhead for this earth and creation around it – Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost. These 3 rule over all of this creation, as Jesus created it all under the direction of Heavenly Father. So answer to one question – a Godhead is not an infinite number of Gods, only 3; at least for this creation as we are not told anything about other creations.
The rest is my speculation based on what I have been taught and understand –
If the ‘model’ remains the same for all other creations, then Heavenly Father does belong to other Godheads for His other creations that He made without Jesus’ contribution. Because they are His creations, He is the head of these Godheads just like He is the head of the one for us. However, I do not know if these creations are concurrent or one after the other. If they’re concurrent then Heavenly Father is in multiple Godheads at one time. If they are one after the other, then He is only in one at a time.
Because the Godhead is only for this creation, when this creation has run its course, the Godhead would most likely dissolve as its purpose has been met out. Jesus (and all others who make it to the highest level of the CK) will be creating their own universes and will form Godheads for them from the beings that are part of those creations. So again, if the ‘model’ is followed, there will only be 3 beings in these Godheads that pertain to those creations alone – ie Heavenly Father will not be involved and neither will any siblings.
Because we do not know anything about Heavenly Fathers ‘past’ we do not know if He was a part of the Godhead for His planet when He was in mortality. Since Jesus is part of this creation, He is most likely only in the one Godhead at this point in time until this creation has finished.
My thoughts only – remember.
If Heavenly Father and his two sons, the Holy Ghost and Jesus, comprise the godhead for this world…
and God became a god like Jesus did…
it only stands to reason that God had a Heavenly Father, with which he existed in a “godhead” before Jesus was ever able to participate. Perhaps the Godhead of which he was first a part consisted of Heavenly Father and his heavenly Father and another brother, who could only be a spirit for whatever reason…
and on back…
is there any reason to think that this is not the case? Why wouldn’t it be? after all, Jesus only does what he sees the father do, so he couldn’t have joined the godhead for this earth unless HF had done it with his dad…
A related subject to this is, where did the first god come from? how did he become a god? was he a person first? a god first? did he have to go through the first mormon temple? why? is that a universal commandment of godhood? why is it? where did that universal commandment come from? was there an earth first, or a god first? or a human first, floating in space, who became righteous enough to make an earth, live on it, progress to godhood, make more people…
???
Oden says: “As I worked my way through the beautiful texts of classic Christianity, I reemerged out of the secularizing maze to delight in the holy mysteries of the faith and in the recurrent puzzles of human existence. Rather than interpreting texts, I found the texts interpreting me. They freed me to ask a broader range of questions……..Every question I thought was new I found had been already much investigated. I was on the threshold of the intergenerational wisdom of the ancient community of faith, which I found was still persisting as a living, caring community. I now stand within the blessed presence of the communion of saints of all generations.”
Oden says that what changed his life was paying attention to the text of Scripture and viewing it through the perspective of the early consensual interpreters like Athanasius, Basil, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Chrysostom in the East, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and Gregory the Great in the West.
Joseph Smith made it up as he went along grabbing a thought here and there from other religious entrepreneurs and for the intellectually lazy, Smith’s razzle dazzle nothing up my sleeve act serve as satisfying spiritual candy for those willing to be taken in by the con. It looks tempting and is sweet to the taste and provides a momentary high, but it has no real spiritual nutrition.
I find it interesting that Ralph would enlighten us with a disclaimer at the end. Mormons are so into solving mysteries that they miss the simple gospel message. In one breath, they will speak as if they have all this knowledge that has been revealed by God through ongoing revelation; however, when things get tough, they petition to blind faith.
I can only add what I was taught when I was a Mormon: most of what is being discussed in this thread is pure speculation and covered under the Mormon escape clause of “it’s not OFFICIAL church doctrine,” followed by a personal testimony that acts like a red herring in the discussion.
When I read MM’s comments, the first thought I had was: “That’s why it’s important to have an OT foundation–it gives us the proper lenses through which we view the biblical text. When interpreting Paul, one must remember that he was Jewish, and was monotheistic in his perception of God.
Now, we have MM attempting to interpret 1 Cor. without an understanding of biblical exegesis. The tenor of the pericope is not about gods, but about the question of whether to eat food that has been sacrificed to an idol. Paul acknowledges that there are those who believe in idols/gods, but since they don’t really exist, it doesn’t matter whether or not you eat food sacrificed to nonexistent gods as long as another believer is not offended by it. This passage is about relationships between Christians as they leave idolatry for the One True and Living God.
This is how Mormonism operates. It misses the point of the biblical text and creates new doctrines.
Peace…
I nominate Ralph as the next Prophet, Seer, and Revelator of the SLC CoJCoLDS. Finally, someone who is not ashamed to draw conclusions from LDS doctrine, especially doctrine that most newer members are shielded from. Why didn’t Gordon Hinckly give an answer like that when asked about the Lorenzo Snow couplet? “Yes, our god was once a man, and because I am worthy enough to be the LDS prophet I will also be god one day where I will create worlds without end. I will have children who will be saviors for those worlds just as my our heavenly brother was a savior for this world. I am the mouthpiece for God on this earth. Can I answer any more questions?”
I guess we can nominate Ralph for LDS prophet, seer and revelator. Why not? He’s as good as they’ve got and can speculate and create doctrine just as has been going on since the days of the first one Joseph Smith. Ralph continues to distinguish himself as one who can find a needle in the haystack to support any Mormon doctrine, practice and excuse even the most egregious sinful behavior on the part of Smith. Now we must remember that Ralph is planning on grabing the big brass ring of godhood himself. So as a future god, he can, I suppose, create what ever kind of doctrine he would like for his planetary system. Ah yes, but these things are just way too sacred to talk about.
I love how the Mormons ignore what the Bible teaches and even their own standard work.
Mormonism teaches that the GoodHood is made up of 3 seperate gods, not one God in the form of 3 people. Mormonism teaches that God the father was once a man and his father was a god. I will use a little (g) For the word god when it refers to any god other than the true and Living God. If God the father had a father who was a god, and we keep looking back we could find hundreds if not millions of gods.
We read in the king follet discourse given by Joseph Smith that there is millions of gods. We also are told faithful LDS can attain god hood and become gods someday. Lets first look at some verses in scripture.
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God….is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isa. 44:6&8
“To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?…for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isa. 46:5&9
“I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another.” Isa. 42:8
If Mormonism is true, and their are 3 seperate gods that form the Godhood, then God lied when He says, I know of no other Gods. If God the father has a father and he has a father, and we keep going back, How can He know of no other Gods if his father is a god, If Jesus is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God, then God the father should have said, I know them or of them.
Now the Bible teaches God cannot Lie. If God cannot lie, how can God say, their are no gods formed before or after me. That tells me we cannot become gods. If God the father says, I know of no other gods, then either God lied or God is not very smart. How can God have a father who is a god, yet He claims I Know of no other gods. Did God forget that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods according to Mormonism?
cont,
Now we read in D and C 121:32
32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.
33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.
In Verse 32 is states that God is eternal and over all other gods. then in verse 33 it says God is almighty. How can God be Eternal if He was once a man? How can God be before and above all other gods if he has a father who is a god and how could he come before ALL OTHER gods, if he has a father that is a god? How can he be ALMIGHTY, if a god is before him, IE his father?
Now we read in the BoM in Alma 11
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An aangel hath made them known unto me.
Now if Amulek is supposed to be a true prophet of God and he states their is only one God, how can their be millions also?
Read in the Pearl of Great Price, all throughout Moses, it says, (I GOD created) then over in Moses chapter 1 verse 6 God says, (But their is no God beside me)
But then we read over in Abraham All through out God says (and the gods) created Etc. How can God say in the Bible that their is no other gods, the BoM only teaches one God, then in the pearl of Great Price we find one God only then later many gods. So which is it? Rick b
Rick,
You poor confused child. I will help you out on your question. It’s called “progressive revelation”. Get it? The people just weren’t mature or spiritual enough in OT times to be able to accept the concept of many gods and that they themselves could become gods. That’s why Mormon converts are only given a couple pieces of the puzzle of this marvelous mystery. When they personally progress then more spiritual light and truth can be revealed to them.
It’s kind of like Free Masonry where the men progress through various stages and receive more of the ancient knowledge, truth and wisdom.
See how easy it is to think like a cultist? Everything and anything can fit within this strange and totally irrational and illogical world. Everything can be covered and made OK if one can think like a cultist. It’s all about that wonderful process of direct revelation from the pagan god. Using revelation as the tool for obtaining truth, there’s no need to mess around with something as obviously dated and only part of the revelation…….the Bible.
Let’s face it, anyone can play this game if they’re willing to suspend credulity and take part in a little fanciful and creative thinking. And just think of the power and authority these mini-prophets can exercise. That’s why there are all of these goof-ball prophets running up and down happy valley. Read “Under the Banner of Heaven” for a complete discussion of this.
For me, I’ll stick with the God revealed in the Bible in the OT and confirmed and explained by the epiphany of Jesus Christ in the NT. Blessed be the Holy Spirit who was given to the church at Pentecost and continues to dwell within each person that seeks the face of God, acknowledges who He is, and is obedient to His command to follow Him.
mantis mutu wrote
..it appears you missed Isaiah 43:10b…
…or why God swears by Himself in Hebrews 6:13
…or the “name above all names” thing…
…or the “alpha and omega” thing…
…or the “I will be what I will be” thing…
…or the “none shall pluck you from my hand” thing…
I mean, if God had decided to not explicitly disclose the existence of beings higher than himself, He’s put out some dangerously misleading information through the Word of God (which has been translated reliably, btw).
Maybe these higher beings should visit our universe some time and put our pretentious God to rights.
I think you want to believe what you said because it fits with the Mormon agenda. The problem is that it doesn’t fit with the Biblical agenda – not even remotely.
What I want to know, but I know I will never get an honest answer is this. How can LDS tell us the Bible is missing things, But cannot ever tell us what they are?
Or How the LDS can say we are wrong about what we believe, yet never seem to give us the answers?
Or how they are the true church, yet never seem to either agree on what they believe, or even answer honest questions.
How is it you guys have on going revelation and a mouth piece to God, yet never are able to ask the questions that need answers?
You guys are so sure your correct and not leading people to hell, and are sure your not going, but always fall short on giving honest answers or even replying to what is said or asked. Just thinking that if your wrong, hell is forever and it will be even more of a bummer knowing that you brought people with you.
here is a good example, OJ Claims the BoM does not contradict the Bible, he accuses messianic of not reading the BoM and telling him in a round about way of not making false claims. Then when I tell him it is full of them, he gets on me telling me I cannot answer them either.
Then I give a link and a long list of problems and guess what, OJ never replies. That just shows LDS have no clue, they can only do what they learn from their father and prophet, Accuse, run away and tell stories. Rick b
Rick,
I sense “testimony bearing” time coming from our Mormon posters. When all else fails go back to this “trump” card in the Mormon deck. I do not sense the persecution card yet.
Just think of what a Mormon can do with personal, direct revelation from their very own created god. It’s a marvelous thing for these men who would become gods.
If we look to the NT (which Mormons are want to do) we have someone who received not only an appearance but a direct revelation from God. That person was the apostle Paul. Who did Paul see? He saw Jesus. Paul saw Jesus because Jesus is the physical manifestation of the Godhead. Paul later went up to Jerusalem and presented the revealed Gospel to the other apostles, those who had walked with Jesus. The apostles added nothing or took nothing away from the revelation that Paul had received.
We must remember that in Mormonism there are three gods of this world and a “force” something like electricity that Mormons call the Holy Spirit. It’s another curious thing that one of the Mormon gods is called the Holy Ghost. This particular god got to be (a god) without the benefit of having a body which sort of violates the Mormon rules more than a bit.
Mormons are really unclear about all of these other millions perhaps billions of gods and how they all fit into the Mormon godhead. I think it can all be explained by the “god of this world” paradigm in Mormonism. We’re really not told if all of these other Mormon gods are organized in the same way as the Mormon gods of this particular planet. We also don’t know how far a long the Mormon god of this planet is.
I think these Mormon men who plan on becoming gods are really kind of “starter” gods and they are assigned “starter” planets. I doubt very much if they are allowed into the council of the gods right off the bat. They’re probably mentored by another god, given some basic entry level assignments and then if they show some potential, get to move up.
Thank you Ralph! Giving your honest opinion. At least that promotes discussion.
As for Manti’s – thanks for your opinion on not giving your opinion. Reading your post was very helpful in advancing discussion. Seriously, why even post, dude? I want my 5 minutes back. You did give enough however for Martin to come back with some scripture to refute your statements though.
But, I know what you will say. God said those things so that people were not too look higher than Him so as to worship a being greater than Him.. What a sneaky God he is.
It’s really kind of funny that Mormons attack what they see as ambiguity in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and yet they are perfectly content with the innumeral loose threads in the Mormon multiple god scenario. They look at the clearly articulated verses that Martin posted above and not see the folly of their false teaching. If the Bible is used as the guide for doctrine, Mormonism is reduced to vapor. The only way the Mormon multiple god doctrine can work is to ignore the Bible, ignore the teachings of the historical Christian Church and ignore all of the writings (which are readily available) of the Church Fathers.
In the place of these things, Mormons accept convoluted conspiracy theories and the “revelations” of a man who claimed to have a magic rock with which he could see buried treasure in the ground and translate ancient writings by placing his magic rock in his hat. And it is on this that Mormons are depending to eventually themselves some day become micro-gods.
Imagine this, turning away from the living God to chase off after the folly of a diluted self-appointed “prophet”. And why would Mormons do this? Well because it makes them feel good and that means it’s true.
I don’t know if there’s a whole lot of help available for someone who’s caught in a web like this. In human terms we’d say “you can’t fix crazy”. I don’t know what the spiritual equivalent of that is but we do know that this is a spiritual battle and human explanations and measures won’t turn the light on for those caught in darkness.
I have explained this a number of times now but I guess one more time for the dummies 🙂 (Martin would get that one).
The term ‘God’ to the LDS denotes a supreme being and is a title. Where as Heavenly Father is who we refer to as our God.
As it is in heaven so it is on earth – So let’s look at ‘Father’. In a family how many people have supreme authority in that sphere? Who makes the rules, decisions, etc for the family? The parents – ie mum and dad. Lets just look at ‘father’ for now. How many fathers are there in the parents of a family? Just one. How many fathers are there in the world? Many.
Going on this, I can say that there is one father for my daughters and before me there were none and after me there will be none. Sounds very similar to a verse in the OT doesn’t it? But that does not negate the existence of other fathers, does it?
Same with this sphere of creation – Heavenly Father is the Supreme authority over this creation, no one else has. Thus only one God with none before and none after.
As far as prophet goes – sorry but I decline. Too much responsibility for me at the moment – I am still learning.
Falcon,
Here’s some enlightenment–but it’s NOT official church doctrine (gotta love that phrase): the Holy Ghost will at some point receive a body!!! I know OJ will say I don’t know what I’m talking about, but that’s what Mormons UNOFFICIALLY believe. In Mormonism, what makes God God is HIS BODY. That’s the missing link. It goes like this: when we were in our premortal state, we saw that God had a body and we wanted one just like His. So, He devised a plan through which we could receive bodies. Now, they support this with Genesis and the phrase: made after God’s image. They don’t understand that the Hebrew word for “image” has nothing to do with physical likeness, but with spiritual character. Additionally, they don’t grasp that Jesus emptied Himself and took on the form of man (which kind of makes it easy to understand that our form is not His form) and was obedient to death on the cross (they abhorr the cross and run from it any chance they get with their lame explanations of it being idolatry, all the whay plastering Angels Moroni on top of their temples). Mormons think the body is the ultimate “thing” that stands in the way of our becoming gods.
I know it’s all convoluted, but that’s Mormonism. I’m looking forward to the weak charges that I am misrepresenting the Mormon faith. The ones that misrepresent the Mormon faith are Mormons when presenting it to others.
Peace…
Ralph,
I used to use the same argument as you. It’s pretty empty. You are trying to use an analogy that will break down, Ralph. You are reasoning as a man, and think you are reasoning as a god in embryo. What you are doing is eisegeting the biblical text. You are taking your faulty presuppositions and manipulating the biblical text to support them. Please take a class on biblical interpretation (I don’t think you’ll find such a class offered by the LDS Church) and do an exegetical study of the passage. There is only One God no matter how you try to speak as a biblical scholar. I don’t know why you want to go on teaching about a god who was once a man, except that it fits into the Mormon program of becoming gods. It’s pretty sad reading your words. But, I know you really think you have something in your explanation. Please, Ralph, take off the faulty lenses given you by a false prophet and be enlightened through the power of the REAL Holy Spirit.
Praying for you…
Jackg,
You ask for answers and we give but you never accept the answers. I have given a plausible answer, and as you said you once thought the same. It is plausible whether you like it or not.
Many on this site have asked the question many times and we LDS have given the answer many times. The answer I gave is plausible even though you do not want to believe the same way we LDS do. So accept it as an answer to the question and move on with your life.
jackg hit the nail on the head with the following:
“That’s why it’s important to have an OT foundation–it gives us the proper lenses through which we view the biblical text. When interpreting Paul, one must remember that he was Jewish, and was monotheistic in his perception of God.”
The LDS and most Evangelicals for that matter look at Paul’s writings from a western, greek viewpoint. Yet, the majority of the NT is written to and from Hebrews who understood the OT and the Hebrewisms throughout it. Joseph Smith would never have gathered followers if the Christians of the time had not been so far removed from Hebrew thinking that they could not search the scriptures to see the falseness of what he preached. When you pull off the blinders and read the Torah and Prophets through a Hebrew mindset all of a sudden it is so simple to see the falseness in Mormonism. Really though the same goes for the Evangelicals. Christians have this concept of the Trinity that they have such a hard time understanding and they belittle the LDS for not understanding it. But the fact is it is a concept that cannot be defined by thinking like a Greek. The idea of the Trinity has it all tied up in a nice little box to help us understand, but you can’t do that, it doesn’t properly define the nature of God. 3 persons in one? It doesn’t really answer anything and sounds very polythiestic itself. This is one of the main reason so many Jews have rejected their Messiah!
I think the following is the best explanation I have found to define the nature of God as explained throughout the Bible. You cannot take each verse seperately, you must look at it as a whole.
“We believe in one God, as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.” Deuteronomy 6:4 2 (We believe that the intended meaning of this word “one” as found in Hebrew dxa (echad), means a “composite unity.”) He alone is ADONAI (Deuteronomy 6:4 & Isaiah 43:10-11). He is the Creator of heaven and earth, of all living beings, and of everything both visible and invisible (Genesis 1:1, Colossians 1:15-17). Although He is limitless in power, authority, time, matter, and space, He has chosen, in His infinite wisdom, to reveal His nature to humanity in perceivable and comprehendible manners. Scripture records God revealing Himself in the following manners: as fire (covenant with Avraham between the two halves of the cow; Genesis 15:17), as the form of a man not born of a woman, (when He approached Avraham with the two angels; Genesis 18), as a burning bush (spoke to Moshe; Exodus 3:2), as the fourth Man in the furnace, (Daniel 3:25), as the promised Messiah being a Man made of flesh and born of a woman (Isaiah 7:14, Galatians 4:4). Although there are numerous examples of God revealing Himself to humanity in various ways and forms, of those ways and forms, He has chosen to refer to Himself in the following primary contexts: as the Father (HaAv), as the Son (HaBen) Y’shua, and as the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit/Breath). What makes these primary contexts important is not only the fact that God used these forms to reveal Himself to humanity, but in doing so, He refers to Himself in these primary contexts as the one and only true and living God.”
taken from the statement of belief on this website:
http://cmf.site40.net/faith.html
Ralph,
God, or “Father” doesn’t say in that Isiaih verse “Before me, no God was formed *for my people*, Nor shall there be any after me.”
If you really used the verse, in its context and in comparison to your Family example, you would really have said “I can say that there is one father and before me there were none and after me there will be none.”
You add “for my daughters” which completely makes your claim inconsistent with what God had said through is Word.
I agree that Mormons will never understand the nature of God; thinking in the manner Mormons think. It won’t work. To paraphrase jackg and messianic, Mormons are wearing their Mormon lenses. They start with a presupposition that there are multiple gods who have progressed from being men to being gods. Mormons may as well throw out the Bible because beyond having some lessons in morality for them, the Bible won’t work in Mormonism. jackg is right in regards to Biblical interpretation. Our buddy Ralph just goes into to some Mormon (think) free flow of consciousness mode and he can make anything fit the Mormon narrative. Mormonism exists because Mormons are ignorant; plain and simple. They are ignorant especially when it comes to any sort of reasonable approach to interpreting the Bible. Oh, but it’s so much more fun to have revelation. Then a person doesn’t have to mess around with actually thinking. They can just operating off of mental impressions and call it the voice of God.
Mormons have the stumbling block of not being able to think in a manner that will actually reveal what the Bible is saying. And don’t forget, the active Mormons-that one third of the group that is actually engaged in the religion-like being Mormons. It defines their lives and gives them structure and meaning. Why bother with reality when fantasy is so emotionally rewarding.
Ralph,
You write words, but you don’t say much. Take off the Mormon lenses, Ralph, and learn the Truth about Jesus. I know the road of leaving Mormonism seems daunting, but God will bring you through it. I know He will, because He did it for me.
Messianic,
Good stuff!! Keep up the good work!
Peace…
Just wanted to say thank you for all the thoughful folks who participate at mormon coffe, I think you all know who you are!
Another thing that the LDS prophets are completely silent on in their theology are the goddesses. Where are the Mormon women in heaven and have they nothing to say? That there are goddesses must be affirmed, but apparently they are not allowed to do anything other than procreate spirit children. And exactly how does a material god and goddess with flesh and bones give birth to spirit children? If a Mormon mentions the Mormon Heavenly Mother too much that’s grounds for excommunication. And why is that, she’s in some of their songs. I guess a cameo appearance here and there is okay, just don’t acknowledge her too much.
Ralph,
In your attempt to rationalize out of the
dilemma posed by the topic of this thread,you
used an analogy equating God being “father” in
the heavenly realm with that of your earthly
family . You said:
” As it is in heaven so it is on earth–So let’s
look at ‘father’. In a family how many people
have supreme authority in that sphere? The
parents–i.e. mom and dad.”
If as you say the arrangement in Heaven is
mirrored on earth concerning “father” and
“mom and dad”, then you are saying that Heavenly
Father[HF] and Heavenly Mother[HM] constitute the
Supreme Authority over all. Correct? Also, if
you sent your daughter with friends to a distant
land, would you then permit her to call you and
your wife so that she could share with you
her feelings, her appreciation of you both etc ?
Of course you would! Any good parent would.
Supposedly, however, your leadership has counseled
LDS against talking (prayer) to their Heavenly
Mother who is way up in heaven ,but as any mother
deserves, she desires to hear from you, right?
Please Ralph could you stop rationalizing, and
just allow the Scriptures ( Isa.40:18,25; 44:6-8)
to speak for themselves? Thank you.
Mobaby,
We were thinking along the same lines. God the
Mother. I guess as Ralph says since “mom and
dad” are the “supreme authority” over their
children , then that makes Heavenly Father and
Heavenly Mother the “Supreme Authority”
over their children here on this earth. So I
guess she’s somewhere in the Godhead also.
I cannot remember where I read it, it may have been an article in Time magazine years ago, that indicated that Mormons tend to be silent on Heavenly Mother. I guess there isn’t a lot in Mormon revelation concerning her, but there is this quiet reverence. What does she do, seems to be the question? I guess she’s kind of like a queen in a honey bee colony. The queen bee has one function, to lay eggs. Mormons don’t seem to know much about Celestial procreation either. But Joseph Smith was definite that if the men didn’t practice polygamy they weren’t getting to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. The FLDS would claim that the LDS went in to apostasy when they bowed to governmental pressure and rejected this “sacred” institution. Anyway with one wife, populating the new planet would be a really challenging task. But Mormons are clueless as to how all of this is suppose to work anyway.
Let’s face it, we’ve all said it and it’s true, there’s no Biblical support for the ideas regarding God that Mormons have as the central part of their religion. It was made-up, not revealed and it formed a perfect cover for Joseph Smith to pursue his sexual desires.
I don’t know what it takes to move someone mentally in the direction of thinking in a manner that will allow them to see the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed by the prophets and recorded in God’s Word the Bible, but all of our exMormon posters have done it, so there is hope.
The Bible is clear on who God is. I don’t know where we go from here with the Mormon posters. They want to believe Smith’s fantasy and there’s no reasoning with them about it. Once someone has bought into a form of thinking and it’s coupled with deep emotion, the discussion is pretty well over.
Some how our exMormon posters had something happen that provided a nudge to knock them off of their mental equilibrium and allowed them to consider some other spiritual possibilities which led them out of the Mormon cult.
We can only pray.
Ralph,
How can you claim What God really meant was…
When the Bible says,
If their are other gods that are Higher than My God, then He lied when He said, He can swear by no greater, because He is the greatest. Rick b
Jack, it’s good to see you posting again. I love the insight you have into the LDS church. About the statement you made to Falcon about obtaining bodies being the road to godhood in the LDS faith: Not only is obtaining a body important, but so is obtaining free agency to choose whether or not to follow the “gospel of Jesus Christ” and to make good or bad choices. Choose The Right, correct? Think about this. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil or they would die. That’s the first covenant God made with man. Along comes Satan who says, “God is lying to you. You won’t die. He knows that if you eat the fruit you will know good and evil and be like him.” So they eat the fruit, and according to LDS doctrine, now they can be like God because they know good from evil. They even quote Genesis 3:22 to prove this belief. So ultimately Satan was telling the truth and God was lying. Satan is the author of their salvation because he is the one who gave them the truth allowing them to know right from wrong and be like God. BY even taught that Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit so they could obtain blood in their veins so they could procreate. But what does Jesus say about Satan? He is the father of lies and was a murderer from the beginning. Either the LDS church is right and God is a liar, or God is right and JS, BY, et al and Satan are liars (yes, I did just ally JS with Satan). Mormons need to make a choice: Either follow God’s plan of redemption from the fall through the shed blood of the real Jesus Christ, or follow Satan’s lie that men can be like God because of the fall.
This is such an eisegetic topic for trinitarians, I don’t know why the Mormons bite.
There are few Christian scholars, and no non-Christian, who now deny the overwhelming weight of history and archeology that Israel was henotheistic, i.e., they believed in the existence of many REAL divine beings, they simply did not worship any god other than their own. Labeled “host of heaven” throughout the OT. Man was to become like God. John 1:12.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ugaritic texts, and the Bible itself allow for no other conclusion. What we find then are trinitarians trying to figure out how to harmonize those facts with their contradicted beliefs.
Note the oft cited Isa 43:10. God knows of no other gods beside himself, none other formed. But Isa 43:6-7 tells us God has “formed” his sons and daughters. But when Jesus calls himself the son of God in John 10:36 they charge him with blasphemy for making himself a god, though he himself asserts the title of son of God does not usurp anything from God the Father, and is mild by comparison to scripture’s description in Ps 82 calling others “gods”.
Christian scholar Steven Heiser notes even Isaiah writes of the divine council, thereby acknowledging the existence of a plurality of real divine beings, though they are not God’s equal or the gods of Israel for worship.
There is really of no value discussing this until trinitarians are prepared to admit as fact “there be…gods many and lords many”, but to us there is one God, the Father, and one (notably separate divine)lord.”
See Steven Heiser’s website or Margaret Barker’s discussions, or Mark Smith, or even read Genesis 35:7 “named the place el-Bethel, because there the gods appeared unto him”. KJV and others translate the plural noun, gods, and plural verb, appears, as singular., hiding the plain plurality in the passage.
See also Deut 32:8-9 in the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Septuagint, the nations divided according to the number of the gods (NRSV), or sons of
Mormons bite because history does not bear out your assertion, Vook. Israel was a monotheistic nation despite some sects that believed in lesser heavenly divines like angels, etc. Since before the time of Jesus faithful Jews have recited the Shema (which means hear) as part of their daily prayers. It is from Deuteronomy 6:4 which says, “Hear O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is one!” Despite the assertions of the haters of God and Christianity, Israel was monotheistic, not henotheistic. Compare this to Deut 7:9 and 10:17, which states the YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords. Even if there were other so-called gods, YHWH is greater than all of them, which still refutes the LDS view that YHWH is just another poor peon god amongst a gaggle of other men who became God.
How long did you have to look to find the one translation (NRSV) that translated Deut 32:8-9 according to your pagan beliefs?
Correction, it is Michael Heiser, not Steven. I had a professor named Steven Heiser, so I always get this wrong.
Here are some websites or resources:
Michael Heiser:
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ with its 8 topics is a great place to start.
Or, see his first published paper I can find at: http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/05-Deuteronomy/Text/Articles/Heiser-Deut32-BS.htm a paper written while attending Dallas Theological Seminary, published in BIBLIOTHECA SACRA 158 (January-March 2001): 52-74
Or see his interaction with FARMS scholarship at: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=643
See Mark Smith’s “The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel’s Polytheistic
Background and the Ugaritic Texts” (Oxford/New York: Oxford University Press, 2001) This work is rigorous in detail, and accepted broadly even among many conservative trinitarian scholars due to its meticulous documentation.
See Margaret Barker’s “The great angel: a study of Israel’s second god” (Westminster John Knox Press 1992). A great work.
See Bill Dever’s “Did God Have a Wife”, Eerdman’s 2005, or his “What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: What Archaeology Can Tell Us About the Reality of Ancient Israel”, Eerdman’s, 2001.
or Keel/Uehlinger “Gods, Goddesses, and Images of God”
Or Raphael Patai’s “The Hebrew Goddess” 3rd Ed.
the classic Frank Moore Cross’ “Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic”, Harvard University Press, 1973.
Or David Penchansky “The Twilight of the Gods: Polytheism in the Hebrew Bible.” Westminster John Knox, 2005.
Or, Bob Becking, et al., “Only One God?: Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah”, Sheffield Academic Press, 2002.
There are many, many more. In fact, as I noted, it is now treated as accepted that the Orthodox religion of ancient Israel believed in the existence of many divine beings. God is one did not mean there was only one god.
liv4jc,
Thanks for the welcome back. What you said was right on target: “Mormons need to make a choice: Either follow God’s plan of redemption from the fall through the shed blood of the real Jesus Christ, or follow Satan’s lie that men can be like God because of the fall.” According to Mormonism, God’s plan of redemption is dependent on sin. How ridiculous is that?! Why would God want us to fall? He didn’t. He wanted us to love Him and obey Him because of our love for Him, which is why we have free-will. That’s what makes us different from the rest of His creation. When God spoke into nothingness, the power of His Word caused nothingness to become matter, and matter instantaneously obeyed God because He is worthy of obedience simply because He’s God, and matter became light in obedience to its Creator. So, we are different in that we have the choice to obey or not. Adam and Eve trusted the serpent more than God, which is why distrust of God is part of our brokenness. This is clear to see when the scriptures are replete with God doing everything He can for us to trust Him, and trusting Him was a major component of Jesus’ teaching.
Vook,
Regarding your comment: “There are few Christian scholars, and no non-Christian, who now deny the overwhelming weight of history and archeology that Israel was henotheistic, i.e., they believed in the existence of many REAL divine beings, they simply did not worship any god other than their own.”
You are correct except for the last phrase–they did worship these other gods, and it was idolatry. Read Judges to learn that the Israelites followed after false gods and worshiped them, which means they believed in them. You will then see the cycle they went through before they called on the REAL God of Israel, Who is the Only God. The other “gods” are “make-believe.” So, your post doesn’t really do anything other than support the fact that the Israelites sinned through idol worship. CONT’D
cont’d
Let’s just take a quick look at Hosea 3:1 for an example: “The LORD said to me, ‘Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulterous. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.”
So, Vook, you are not bringing anything new to the table; not even the eisegeted explanation is new.
Peace and Blessings…