This may seem like a silly question, but can anyone tell me what comprises “the Gospel” according to Mormonism?
I ask because I recently came across a video on You Tube titled “Sharing the Gospel with Elder Hartman Rector Jr., A Missionary Tool.” In this video Mr. Rector, emeritus General Authority of the LDS Church, talks about Doctrine & Covenants 33:7-10 wherein readers are told that the field is white and ready to harvest, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr. Rector explains that Latter-day Saints are “their access in” to the kingdom of heaven for people not yet members of the Church. Mormons must “open their mouths” to reap the harvest. “[I]t doesn’t make any difference [what you say],” Mr. Rector instructs, “as long as you talk about the Church.”
From there Mr. Rector provides some ideas of what Latter-day Saints might say when they open their mouths. He says to ask questions: “By the way, do you like to read? If I would send you a book that contains the actual account of the visit of the Lord Jesus Christ to America, would you read it?” Ostensibly, 97.5 percent of the people who are asked this question say yes.
Mr. Rector suggests another technique that involves the use of a coin imprinted with the images of the prophet Moroni on one side and Joseph Smith on the other. Again, Latter-day Saints are to ask if the person they’re talking with would be willing to receive and read the Book of Mormon (though Mr. Rector does not say to call the book by its title). Using this approach, 90 percent agree to receive the Book of Mormon and willingly provide their names and addresses to a complete stranger.
Latter-day Saints are told to write in the book before they send it, “Something simple like…If you will read this book and apply the promise on page 529 it will change your life, as it has changed mine.”
Okay, well it could be that the person who posted this video attached a poorly chosen title to it, yet at least to that Mormon’s understanding, Mr. Rector is explaining how to share the Gospel. In the entire 6 minutes and 55 seconds that the video runs, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is never mentioned. The Atonement of Christ is never mentioned. Man’s need of a Savior is never mentioned. In fact, Jesus Christ Himself is only mentioned in relation to being a main character in the Book of Mormon. Exactly what “Gospel” are these people sharing? Not the Gospel Paul preached, at least not directly.
The “Gospel” is “The central message of the Christian church to the world, centered on God’s provision of salvation for the world in Jesus Christ” (Donald K. McKim, Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms).
A “Gospel” without Christ at its center is foreign to me. What is this Mormon “Gospel” that Latter-day Saints are told to share without even talking about salvation and what Christ has done for us?
Thank you Sharon.
Poor fellow….so lost.
Have mercy and pray hard for these people. Heavenly Father suffered so much watching His Son suffer, just so He could be with them in Heaven someday. Christ loves them just as much as He loves me.
But this brings up another point. The whole time I was in the machine, I never once saw an Elders Quorum Teaching Manual about Jesus Christ. They were ALWAYS about a mormon prophet.
Scary…
Love in Christ’s Mercy…Free
This was said in the article,
The thing that really gets me is, Mormons claim we Christians judge them and they get mad at us, yet they turn around and judge us rather harshly and in so many words accuse us of being liars or dishonest.
This is how it works, we are told to read and pray about the BoM, we are told if we do it sincerely and honestly we will get an answer.
But yet when I tell LDS I have yet the answer I get from God is, Acts 17:11 Or I get, JS is a fraud answer from God, Then I am accused of only looking for lies, or not being honest or not being sincere. So why the double standard from the LDS. And who gives you the right to tell me I am not sincere about praying or in fact I lied about praying? Rick b
Sharon,
Thank you for your article. I have often wondered the same thing – what is the LDS gospel? The basic Mormon gospel from what I have distilled here on Mormon Coffee (from the Mormons) revolves around the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. There was one person who posted here who was always wanting to look at the truth of the Book of Mormon. Many times Mormons go back to praying about the BOM to receive a witness to it’s truth. as the final test on all truth. Does it never occur to them that they are testing the BOM according to the criteria laid out by the BOM and Joseph Smith??? Before you ever pray, it seems to me that you have acquiesced that some kind of feeling or spiritual experience will validate the BOM on terms that THE BOM LAYS OUT! You’ve already assumed the truth of the BOM before you ever pray!
Even video testimonies I have viewed on the LDS website seem to center on 1) the BOM 2) the Church. Their gospel or “good news” seems to be that the true Church has been restored, Joseph Smith is a true prophet, and the BOM is a divinely inspired history of a place somewhere in the Americas (where Jesus once came and preached the Sermon on the Mount) translated from gold tablets. Once converts have accepted this, then the LDS begin to roll out the entire program of temples, exaltation, etc.
i went to the link and listened to the man talk. wow. this is the ultimate confusion for a mormon, I think. they really believe that salvation is equated with the church, don’t they? It’s not Jesus, it’s the CHURCH. The church is the real key, without it, no one will be going where they want to go.
That’s how Mr. Rector can say, without blinking an eye, that “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” is talking about the MORMON HAND – heaven is being given to the world by the hand of the MORMON!
There is a Saturday afternoon cartoon that I started to record for my kids to watch, until I listened to it just once. I never recorded it after that, nor did I ever let my kids watch it.
The thing was how I realized it was not a Christian cartoon, but a Mormon one. It was the song. The lyrics…
“My hand is the Lord’s hand. Without me, how will his work be done?”
The emphasis, in Mormonism, is on the church, and by extension, the mighty SELF.
Christianity is about JESUS. You’ll never really know Him until you are able to let go of everything else, including the church, and your SELF, and seek the real PEARL OF GREAT PRICE
“The Gospel” According to Brigham Young:
“Our religion is nothing more nor less than the true order of heaven—the system of laws by which the gods and the angels are governed. Are they governed by law? Certainly. There is no being in all the eternities but what is governed by law.” (DBY, 1).
Our religion, in common with everything of which God is the Author, is a system of law and order. He has instituted laws and ordinances for the government and benefit of the children of men, to see if they would obey them and prove themselves worthy of eternal life by the law of the celestial worlds (DBY, 1).
The Gospel and the Priesthood are the means he employs to save and exalt his OBEDIENT children to the possession with him of the same glory and power to be crowned with crowns of glory, immortality and eternal lives (DBY, 5).
There is no ordinance that God has delivered by his own voice, through his Son Jesus Christ, or by the mouths of any of his Prophets, Apostles or Evangelists, that is useless. Every ordinance, every commandment and requirement is necessary for the salvation of the human family (DBY, 152).
The Gospel picked from a random Christian Website:
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament of the coming Redeemer.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Jesus Christ lived a perfect sinless life for us. He conquered sin for us.
Jesus Christ died for my sins, once and for all.
Jesus Christ rose from the dead. He conquered death that I might have eternal life.
Jesus Christ ascended to heaven where He is interceding for me. He tells me to stop sinning, yet if I do sin and repent, He is interceding his blood before the Father and will forgive me.
Jesus Christ is coming back to take His people home to heaven.
http://www.bibleplus.org/gospel.htm
SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
It just so happens that the book which we want all people to read has greater power to bring souls to Christ than any book on earth. In fact, that is it’s sole purpose and mission. He is the center of that book as anybody who has spent any time reading it can attest.
It seems sort of small to make such claims about us and the BOM. I could just as well claim that various groups don’t emphasize Jesus enough because all they talk about is the Bible. Would that not show a very limited understanding of what the Bible is about? I think so.
The promise of the BOM is simple and clear. It relies on a just and loving God who answers prayers. It really cannot get more simple, straight-forward, or reasonable.
A person can receive personal revelation regarding the truthfulness of the BOM, but they must:
1. Be teachable/humble
2. Be diligent in studying the book
3. Have faith in Christ
4. Look beyond prejudices
5. Pray with the intention of following whatever answer they receive.
6. Have faith that prayers will be answered (this has a huge impact- so dependent upon how a person really feels about God).
It doesn’t presuppose anything. Bottom line- it is either true, or it is not. God is the most reliable source of information in answering the question.
RickB- I have to take your word about your prayers and inquiry into the BOM. Each of us must answer for ourselves and will be unable to point the finger of blame to others, either way.
But it seems a little weak to me for a person to make conclusions without reading it fully. And I am not saying you haven’t.
Did Rector claim to be presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this video? I think he was offering some tips and ideas he had on techniques to pique interest. From my view, the two are not the same.
But hey- you gotta work every angle you can I suppose.
OJ,
What if I don’t agree with the terms you have laid out for determining truth? What if I believe individuals can examine evidence related to the BOM and determine that it would be wrong to pray about the truth of something that God has plainly shown me is not true through evidence? I did pray years ago that if somehow everything that has been shown to me revealing what a fraud the BOM is is somehow wrong, Lord, please show me where this evidence is wrong. Like Rick, I too felt it was confirmed to me that the BOM is false. I would never ask anyone to pray on the terms laid out in the BOM, but instead examine the evidence for and against the BOM – and then examine the evidence for and against the truth in Scripture of salvation by grace through the atonement purchased by Christ. I believe that Christians should preach Christ and Him crucified for our sins and Jesus will draw people to Himself and give them faith.
Jim, to be honest, I find your response, while cogent and understandable, terribly vague.
I see it as supporting what has been charged against your faith.
You tell this to Rick, too: “But it seems a little weak to me for a person to make conclusions without reading it fully. And I am not saying you haven’t.” There are so many different directions one could take, but I’ll simply say that reading it in its entirety is not necessary to determine its veracity. Also, behind the statement is that you haven’t prayed sincerely until you’ve read it all (but then why emphasize the one verse and prayer on that?). So, the conclusion is that unless you’ve read all the way through it you cannot be praying sincerely. Is that a fair conclusion to make from your comment?
Your list is telling, especially the line regarding prejudices. Can you pray about it without prejudice? Seriously, can you pray about without the assumption you have that it is true?
Setfree, I agree fully that to LDS redemption is found only within the LDS church, and not Christ. They continually insert LDS members, faith, and works as substitutes for Christ’s work. Baptism comes to mind, where only those with authority through the LDS belief system can baptize. Any other baptism is no good. Same with marriage– only those sealed in an LDS temple are valid forever.
Jim said:
“It just so happens that the book which we want all people to read has greater power to bring souls to Christ than any book on earth. In fact, that is it’s sole purpose and mission. He is the center of that book as anybody who has spent any time reading it can attest.”
and later:
“A person can receive personal revelation regarding the truthfulness of the BOM, but they must:
1. Be teachable/humble
2. Be diligent in studying the book
3. Have faith in Christ…”
Do you see anything wrong with this picture Jim?
I’m totally serious, here. Perhaps if you can find what is the matter with this picture, you will understand what is going on here.
“
Jim, Since you do not know I will let you know. I have read all 4 standard LDS books from cover to cover, Plus many others. Rick b
OK folks, Mr. Broken Record here again to dazzle you with the one factor that should keep anyone away from reading the BoM and praying if it is true. Back to the bottom-line: “Who is the Mormon God?” Describe him to me. Now once I know this, I don’t have to read the BoM except to refute it. Why not read the Satanic Bible and pray if it is true? Why not read the Koran and pray if it is true? Why not read “Gone With the Wind” or “The Adventures of Robin Hood” and pray if they are true?
We know that Mormonism is all about the organization that is suppose to show its adherents the pathway to godhood. The Mormon church holds the ordinances and all the other hocus pocus that’s suppose to provide the pathway to deification for the Mormon male. Several other posters have hit the nail on the head regarding Jesus and Christianity. Jesus is the source of redemption and the pathway to the Father and eternal life. He is God. He is not “a” god the off-spring of the Mormon man-god and one of his Celestial wives. To Mormons Jesus is a noble big brother who through His good example, did the deeds assigned to Him and is now one of the gods.
That’s why the Mormon gospel is all about the organization. Serving the morg is the way, the truth and the light of Mormonism and when all of a Mormons time, money and efforts are given to the morg, godhood is the payoff.
In Christianity we are reconciled to God by the sacrifice of Jesus, the qualified savior. He is the qualified Savior because He is God, not a god. Knowing Jesus and conforming our lives to God’s standards is the goal of a Christian. Through the grace of God we are given the strength to overcome our natural enemy, the flesh. When we do sin, we have the blood of Jesus which is constantly cleansing us from all unrighteousness.
Foolish Mormons. They don’t know God. They don’t know Jesus. And while those who read here know the pathway to the Father, they ignore and mischaracterize it and therefore reject the gift of God.
This IS the Gospel:
“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1Cor:15-1-4
So Jim, how do you have faith in the truth of something that you don’t know is true?
Mobaby,
Would you endorse the same approach with the Bible? Read the scientific and rational arguments of those who do not believe in the Bible and then pray to God to know if it is true? Can you see a problem?
While I cannot judge your intent or heart- what you describe really sounds like you had your answer before you ever prayed about it- your mind was already made up.
MJP- I truly find it interesting, and I don’t mean this as a put-down, that EVs really seem to have a problem when such a basic concept of studying something out in a person’s mind and going to the Lord for help, confirmation, and answers to prayer. This process, in my opinion, is the basis of religion.
By prejudice, I mean just that- to pre-judge based on opinions, arguments from others that are not based on truth and an honest search for God. If, before reading it for myself, a friend tells me that the BOM is a fraud and leads a person to hell even though they haven’t read it, and I place weight on their opinion, that is prejudice.
You really are placing your own ability to weigh out all the evidences above the ultimate source of truth. What is to guarantee a person has access to the most accurate secular information or research? EVs here are saying that obtaining answers through prayer are too subjective- that says a lot to me, especially when you argue that such arguments are more reliable than the Holy Ghost. I really believe it is a matter of trusting in the arm of flesh.
That is not to say I do not research all academic arguments. I venture to say I am more familiar with the arguments for and against the BOM than those here.
MJP- the church and priesthood and temple are not substitutes for Christ- they are His instruments. He is the author of the ordinances, etc. By accepting His prophets and ordinances in addition to the conversion that occurs in his heart, a person accepts Christ.
It seems the burden of proof should be on the message not on the hearer of that message. And the BoM does not provide that proof. If someone doesn’t get it, well they aren’t humble, they aren’t teachable, they don’t already believe or they have hidden sin. I’m not a lawyer but I don’t think the arguement ‘Ladies and Gentleman of the jury I you’ll agree that my client is not guilty if you are fine upstanding, truth seeking citizens who aren’t harboring a hidden life of crime of their own’ How would any justice be done if that’s how we came to truth. Good people will automatically agree with what’s true? And nobody lies? No one tries to save face? I’m afraid the only people it makes sense to are those lost in the cult of personality that is JS & Co.
Yup grindael that’s it.
Unfortunately Mormons are looking through their LDS magic spectacles and First Corinthians 15:1-4 will mean something entirely different to these men who would be gods. In Mormonism their foundational premise is that God is a man who through works of righteousness and adherents to the Mormon gospel principles morphed into a deity. They have this same hope.
Jesus, as I pointed out before, is just one of a pantheon of gods who likewise did the work necessary to achieve god status. He’s just one more of an endless parade of spirit children produced by the Mormon god and one of the wives he has endless Celestial sex with.
These folks are sick puppies. We just have to keep banging away at this theme so that folks who the Mormons try to hoodwink into thinking that there’s no difference between Mormonism and Christianity will be cult proofed.
While we are not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormons are so ashamed of their blasphemous view of Jesus that they have to keep it well hidden.
Could a person accept God before Christ’s earthly ministry without accepting the Law of Moses with it’s guidelines? No. Christ fulfilled that law, but that does not mean he did away with ordinances and authority. You disagree, but my logic is perfectly legitimate.
Setfree- I am guessing that you find it wrong to include “have faith in Christ” on my list because it presupposes something. I can certainly change that to having “Hope” in Christ. This is not unreasonable for a person after he has read the BOM.
RickB- I am glad you read the BOM. How long ago? What was your belief about the book when you began?
I find this difference in personal revelation between us very interesting and monumental- it really is the foundation for everything.
rvales- the answer is that you hope for something that is true- hope in Christ for salvation. Once planted, that seed grows through study, humility, obedience, and prayer. The light of Christ speaks to a person’s soul. It is the spark that leads to hope. And if heeded and obeyed, that light grows brighter and brighter, becoming a more sure knowledge.
Indeed Falcon, excellent point – why not read the Koran and pray about it? – this book talks about Jesus too! Why not read the Bhagavad Gita and pray about it? – it reveals ancient Indian spiritual writings where individuals learn of their own divine nature and consciousness by united together with god – really a lot closer to Mormon belief than Christian Scripture and beliefs. Is the best way to determine if the “Bhagavad Gita” is true is to pray about it with a sincere and open heart, read through it several times, go to a Hindu temple and discuss with those who are convinced it is true? What about Mary Baker Eddy’s “Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures?” Again, have the LDS here prayed about this book with an teachable/humble heart, laying aside all prejudices, read it all the way through, gone and discussed the book with a Christian Science leader in a Christian Science Reading Room or Church? No? Well, why not? They talk a lot about Jesus as well.
Jim, that doesn’t prove it’s truth now does it? Someone can have a sincere thought about a false idea. People study budhism and hope that they can acheive enlightenment and they grow in their study of buddhism and become more ‘enlightened’ and more sure of their path. So your logic doesn’t really stand up. It’s based on the power of suggestion not a solid rock of truth. There is nothing with which to hold the BoM, or personal revolation accountable making Mormonism (as we can clearly see in every MC thread) a free for all.
All I can say about this is that many people out there do not understand the difference in meanings of words like gospel, religion, doctrine, faith, belief, church, denomination, etc. Up until I started reading and contributing on this site, I thought that gospel and religion were the same thing, but I found out they aren’t, however they are related. So maybe the people involved with this video need to brush up on their meanings.
Free,
I have been in the PH programme for 22 years now and seen the manuals change 3 times in that period. All of them taught the doctrine of the church using quotes from the scriptures and the general authorities. None of the manuals were ONLY about the prophets, as you intimate.
Setfree and MJP,
We do not equate salvation with the church – we teach that there is no salvation outside of the LDS church because we believe that we are Jesus’ only true church on this earth. This is just like your belief that you are in Jesus’ only true church (how ever you wish to define it) on this earth and all who do not belong to it are not saved. But we teach that salvation only comes through Jesus’ atonement and faith in Him (However that faith has to be a living faith – ie with works). But being a member of the LDS church does not automatically guarantee that one gains salvation, unlike your system of belief where you class any one who is ‘saved’ as a member of the church.
As far as the quote from the cartoon, I have heard many a ‘Christian’ (I am talking about Anglican, Lutheran, Pentecostal and Presbyterian) teach that principle – That God only has us to work through on this earth and because of this we are His hands.
Mobaby,
You said ” What if I don’t agree with the terms you have laid out for determining truth? What if I believe individuals can examine evidence related to the BOM and determine that it would be wrong to pray about the truth of something that God has plainly shown me is not true through evidence?…I would never ask anyone to pray on the terms laid out in the BOM, but instead examine the evidence for and against the BOM – and then examine the evidence for and against the truth in Scripture of salvation by grace through the atonement purchased by Christ.”
Can you tell me where in the Bible do the Bereans look at external evidence? I believe that the scriptures say that they just studied the scriptures only. Why does the BoM need to be any different?
Your original ‘problem’ with the LDS going to the BoM and following its advice to determine if it is true is exactly what many on this site do with the Bible. They state that the Bible is true and is the word of God because the Bible says it is. And since it is the word of God and God cannot lie then the Bible is true and is the word of God. Now before you go into there being external evidences – there is nothing proving that it is no more than historical fiction. So how do you REALLY know the Bible is true and is the word of God?
As far as testimony goes, the majority of testimonies I hear on a Sunday usually start with the acknowledgement that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ live, and that they are there helping us and love us, and other things in that vein. Then they go onto JS, BoM, the current prophet, etc. So if you hear any different I can only give 3 explanations – 1) you are only hearing what you want to hear; 2) There is something seriously wrong in the ward/s you visit; 3) The members bearing their testimony have been taught incorrectly what a testimony is.
Grindael,
I know you find those quotes wrong from your perspective, however you are trying to say that those are all about the gospel according to BY. I can only see one quote that even references the word ‘gospel’, all the others are discussing our ‘religion’. As pointed out s few times in past blogs, gospel and religion are 2 different things. So what is your point?
As far as our gospel is recorded, go to 3 Nephi 11:31-41 and read. It is too long to place on here.
Falcon, Falcon, Falcon,
You said ”Foolish Mormons. They don’t know God. They don’t know Jesus. And while those who read here know the pathway to the Father, they ignore and mischaracterize it and therefore reject the gift of God.
What can I say? I do not acknowledge your Trinity as my God nor the God of the Bible. I have my evidences from the Bible and from my own life experiences that I am following the one and only true God and I believe in Him and His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus I can say that you don’t know God, neither do you know Jesus. But the truth is that either only one of us is correct, or neither.
To summarize:
Jim said:
“the book [of Mormon]… has greater power to bring souls to Christ than any book on earth. In fact, that is it’s sole purpose and mission…”
and later:
“A person can receive personal revelation regarding the truthfulness of the BOM, [if they] … have faith in Christ…”
I asked “Do you see anything wrong with this picture Jim?”
Jim answered
“Setfree- I am guessing that you find it wrong to include “have faith in Christ” on my list because it presupposes something. I can certainly change that to having “Hope” in Christ. This is not unreasonable for a person after he has read the BOM. ”
Ok. So that’s where we are in this discussion.
Here’s the deal, Jim.
Yes, for one, how can “faith in Christ” (or “hope in Christ”) be a prerequisite to getting a personal revelation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the book whose supposed mission it is to bring people to Christ?
(And more so than any other book on earth, even. Have you ever heard of the Bible, I wonder?)
This is very circular logic – UNLESS…
unless you realize what is meant by “bringing souls to Christ”.
When you realize that what Mormonism means by “bringing souls to Christ” is bringing them to Mormonism, bringing souls to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and giving them the Mormon gospel and the Mormon rules and ordinances, that clears everything right up, doesn’t it?
And that’s where lies the deception, AGAIN.
The Book of Mormon isn’t about bringing people to a knowledge of Christ and His gospel. It’s about bringing people to THE CHURCH. Joseph’s Church.
Ah man, it always comes back to the same thing with you guys, because you don’t think that your church and Jesus are separate. But they are. THEY SO ARE.
Jesus said that Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. Him. Jesus.
Get Jesus you guys. Give up Joseph’s church, and get the real Jesus.
Praying that you will have your eyes opened….
as an afterthought…
how can the Book of Mormon have “power” to bring souls to the Mormon Christ? It doesn’t even contain your gospel!
Ralph,
Take a look at the main home page for the lds – do you see something “seriously wrong” with this page? http://www.lds.org – look at the video testimonials featured on the main landing page. Are they all about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ – or is the focus elsewhere??? Like on the Book of Mormon – the title of the video testimonials is “Testimony of the Book of Mormon” – THIS is the Mormon gospel – the FOCUS is the CHURCH restored, the truth of the BOM, and Joseph Smith. The Mormon Jesus makes an appearance here and there, but he is not the focus.
Olsen Jim,
Do I examine the Bible in light of historical evidence? Absolutely. If I had become a Christian based on a document as flimsy and completely unsubstantiated as the Book of Mormon I would have abandoned the faith long ago and chalked it up to an emotional/spiritual mistake on my part to fall for such a thing. I find the Bible and reality to fit very nicely together and don’t think God calls us to abandon all reason and thinking ability when you follow Jesus. The God you request we pray to Jim seems very weak. You question my prayer saying my mind was made up and you are right, it was and still is – but I did indeed pray asking that God would show me where I had gone wrong – what evidence I had read that was false? God is surely powerful enough to change someone’s mind, especially if that person prays and asks God to reveal their mistake? I really feel God confirmed what I already knew – the Book of Mormon is false. I pray that God would change your heart as well – even though your mind is made up.
Christians focus on Jesus Christ. I once went to an apologetics seminar and what one of the speakers said stuck with me “It would be better to LOSE an argument about Jesus Christ – His deity and redemption through the cross than it would be to WIN an argument about 7 day creation.” His point is to focus on Jesus and His crucifixion and resurrection not on peripheral side issues.
A note to my fellow Christians,
I wanted to share my beautiful day with you. Six people have expressed to me today, the fact that they are leaving Mormonism, and embracing Biblical truth. A family of four and two individuals. The family and one individual have already found Bible based home churches. One is investigating congregations near him, via the net. Mormon Coffee has played a vital part in these conversions. One gentleman has printed out numerous pages of MC for reference, as part of his quest for truth. I have asked them to drop a note to the posters at MC when/if they feel comfortable.
Your posts and prayers matter. YOU ARE CHANGING LIVES AND SAVING SOULS.
Mobaby,
You employ a typical maneuver. Do you profess to know a lot about the Koran or other religious books? The difference is that you and other claim to know so much about the BOM, and you simply do not. I doubt you go to websites and list your reasons for disbelieving those other books. Or am I wrong?
rvales- no offense, but it sounds like you do not trust that you can trust answers to prayer.
To what is the Bible accountable? Archeology? Please.
The aim is to recognize and accept truth when a person is exposed to it. For many people in the world, they do not have the exposure necessary to recognize and accept the truth (surely some would not even if they were exposed). We all have different levels of exposure to truth. I think you would agree. While your religion casts those of other religions to hell, mine recognizes the beauty in any honest truth-seeker and provides the context for their salvation, even if after this life.
I really think that many people will do anything to avoid facing the accountability associated with determining if the BOM is true. It is really so basic and straight-forward. Do you believe God cares what we believe. Do you believe He will guide us and answer our prayers. Does he expect us to study things out in our minds. Will he answer an honest prayer from a person seeking truth. It is not as complicated as you are choosing to make it. The God I worship loves the truth-seeker and answers their prayer. You are rationalizing yourself out of some great and beautiful experiences.
Can a person accept Christ without accepting the Bible? Why don’t we apply the same logic you are employing with the BOM. A person could just as easily say, leave the Bible alone, man, just focus on Jesus…… That is what you are saying.
Ralph,
Then you must explain to your own church YOUR view, since I took the quotes from the Official Mormon Site, Under Lds.org.Melchizedek Priesthood:
LIVING THE GOSPEL
With this underneath:
As a great colonizer, civic and Church leader, and provider for his family, President Brigham Young exemplified the living, practical gospel. He emphasized in his teachings and in his life that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the way to salvation for mankind and also “is a matter-of-fact religion, and taketh hold of the every-day duties and realities of this life” (DBY, 12).
The GOSPEL is a ‘matter of fact RELIGION’. They use the terms interchangeably.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&nav=0&sourceId=d836767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Ralph,
I think you are right about those who would reason that Scripture is true because Scripture says it is true. That is circular reasoning. I have heard and read a lot of evidence for the authenticity of Christian Scripture – enough that I am convinced it is a real historical document. There are enough internal references, external testimonies, etc. that it is convincing to me. Reading through Scripture, both Old and New Testament has also convinced me of the truth in 2 ways – it fits with my experience that people and sinful and fallen – it describes human nature accurately, and Scripture fits together with the “scarlet thread” of the sacrifice for redemption – with the OT sacrifices looking forward to the coming of the Messiah and the final sacrifice that purchases the redemption of all who believe or trust in that sacrifice for their sins – Jesus death on the cross is the central focus of Scripture and it became more and more plain to me as I have read the Bible. I believe Scripture is the very voice of God to us today, so I have a very high view of Scripture.
So, I really think you need both – personal testimony of the truth of Scripture and external evidence. God will do His work on His children, calling them to Himself and adopting them as sons and daughters when His Church lifts up Jesus Christ and proclaims Scripture.
Amen Setfree. Just what I was going to expand upon. A person doesn’t need to read the BoM or the Bible to learn whether or not to join the LDS church. All one needs to do is read the LDS.org website, church teaching manuals, the Elder King Follet discourse, the JoD, the D&C, former and current LDS publications, etc. to determine what the LDS church teaches as their “gospel” is found nowhere in either of those books! Nowhere in either book (apart from reading tradition into the text) will you find the plurality of gods, men being the same species as God, eternal progression, LDS temple ordinances, word of wisdom, plural marriage (that horse has been beaten to death and is now in the glue factory) blah, blah, blah. It’s just like the fact that all I need to do is read some of the Jehovah’s Witnesses publications and compare them with the bible to know that their church is false. The fact is that all heresies stem from improper interpretation of the bible based upon human concepts and desires. If a person truly reads the bible in its grammatical historical context then the LDS standard works (JSTKJV bible included) can instantly be shown to be counterfeit scripture and JS is revealed to be a false prophet.
And again, Mormons, please stop passing off your milk as “salvation”. That is a lie meant to deceive the newly initiated. We all know that true salvation according to the LDS gospel requires much more than repentance, faith, and following the commandments. That’s just the baby step that gets you into the terrestrial kingdom or maybe the bottom rung of the celestial if you’re really good, which of course is not true salvation.
Archeology is one thing the Bible has going for it.
I completely trust answers to prayers, but I don’t trust my perception of so called answers. So everything that I experience has to come back and check out with the Bible, when it does I know it’s from God. If it doesn’t jive with the Bible, no matter how good or sincere I feel about it I know that the answer is wrong.
The point is, no amount of ‘sincere feeling’ ‘sincere desire’ or ‘purity of heart’ can guarantee an ability to discern truth. In fact my first inclination that the Bible was true was because I had a knowledge of my own sinful depravity (the completely unpure nature of my heart) and inablity to fix myself and the Bible validated that information and expounded on it to explain who was afflicted (everyone ever born) why they were afflicted (born in flesh that given an option will choose sin everytime) and how to overcome this affliction (death pays for sin, Christ died for my sins so I didn’t have to and rose again to give me new life IN HIS LIFE) So when I compare my understanding of life with what the Bible explains about life they match up and I see that the Bible is on the mark about some things which adds to it’s crediblity on other things.
One of the most remarkable sermons I ever heard was on the Fall. I was already a Christian and already trusted in the Bible (because it had proven itself right time and time again) and then I heard a sermon on the fall which spelled out human psychology in it’s rawest form. Who better to explain the creation than the Creator!
Jim we use the same standard to determine that the bible is a reliable document that we use to determine that Julius Caesar really lived and did things history records, that Napoleon was a real French leader, that Abraham Lincoln actually was the President of the United States and gave the Gettysburg Address, etc. You hold the bible to a higher standard than the BoM based upon the statements of one man, Joseph Smith. Smith is the one who “translated” the BoM by the power of his god working through a magical peep stone. Smith is the one who wrote in 1 Nephi 13 that the bible was so corrupted that the church needed to be restored. Smith is the one who recorded that the church of his day was an abomination in God’s sight. Look at the historical evidence for the validity of these statements. You will find that they are not true. Tangible physical evidence refutes what JS taught. All you have is a testimony based upon your tradition. Have fun with that when standing before the judgement seat of Christ. I certainly wouldn’t bank my eternal security on the claims of such a despicable character as Joseph Smith.
Olsen Jim,
You say I employ a “typical maneuver” – care to explain where my reasoning has gone wrong on the Mormon way to determine truth? I guess that’s better than an “atypical maneuver” or maybe not? 😉
On the subject of discussing online with other faiths – I have debated with atheists online, but found the forum where I was discussing, the atheists tended not to want to sincerely debate issues, rather they resorted to categorical rejection – they would respond “he believes in “fill in the blank” that’s ridiculous. Chuckle.” end of conversation. Here on Mormon Coffee recently we had the Mormon theology student who employed many of the same tactics as the atheists in his attempt to read multiple gods into the Old Testament. I felt like we were debating an atheist/skeptic, and in a way, we were.
I have spoken with Jehovah’s Witnesses in person, they seem ill prepared to defend what they believe and often don’t even seem to know themselves what they believe. I’m not going to teach them their false doctrine, but instead I focus on the truth.
I used to have a copy of the Bhagavad Gita – but I have not read it in depth.
I have read quite a bit on Islam, and have debated some online with Muslims – although I admit that for the most part I have just read through the threads and not participated. I often view Youtube videos of former Muslims who have found Christ and been released from the hamster wheel of always trying to merit an elusive God’s favor, and now are trusting in the completed work of Christ. Truly inspiring. I just read today about a pro-life center that ministered to a pregnant Islamic woman/student thinking of abortion, who is now trusting Christ due to the love of Jesus shown to her, and her child has been spared from abortion.
I also post comments sometimes on Christian focused blogs – primarily Lutheran and I listen almost daily to Issues Etc.
So no, I don’t focus exclusively on Mormons.
Why would anyone pray to the Mormon god to determine anything regarding the truth? We may as well go into the temple of a Greek fertility goddess and ask her if she’s the real deal. Must I go over this all again? Who is the Mormon god? Where was Joseph Smith, the man conjuring with a magic rock and using second sight vision to see into the spirit world getting his inspiration. Smith was a combination occultist and flim flam man. That’s the guy Mormons are counting on to tell them who god is? And who is Smith’s god? A sinful man who made himself into a deity.
If you pray to the devil to give you a good feeling about a god who isn’t God, he will oblige you. If you count seeing spirits of dead people as some mystical sign, the god of the occult will be very happy to oblige your desires. The Bible clearly teaches that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. It also tells us that the devil can cause all kinds of signs and wonders in an attempt to fool even the elect if possible.
How long do we have to bang this drum before Mormons will hear?
Grindael,
I went to the webpage you referred me to and this is the direct quote from BY ”The religion of Jesus Christ is a matter-of-fact religion, and taketh hold of the every-day duties and realities of this life (DBY, 12).” Yes, the editors of the book wrote the chapter heading with both gospel and religion in it, but as I said earlier, many people do not know the real difference between the meaning of the words. My understanding is the lesson is teaching that we must not just be a Sunday worshiper, but we must live our religion everyday and thus keep the gospel in our lives daily.
Mobaby,
Many here complain that we LDS do not denote the differences in our religion vs your religion when we talk to people and say we believe in Jesus Christ just as you do. But when we point out that we have the BoM and living prophets as well and testify that these are true you complain that we are not Christ centred. So we are not going to ‘win’ either way with you are we? When it comes down to it, we do testify of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. While there appears to be an emphasis on the BoM and the living prophets this is because of 2 reasons – 1) it is the main difference between Traditional Christianity and the LDS church and 2) The BoM and the prophets teach all to come unto Christ so its all about Christ anyway.
As far as your comment ”I really think you need both – personal testimony of the truth of Scripture and external evidence.”, I do have both for the LDS church, BoM and the living prophet. However, you will discount any or most of my external evidence as you do not wish to believe what I believe.
Falcon,
” The Bible clearly teaches that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. It also tells us that the devil can cause all kinds of signs and wonders in an attempt to fool even the elect if possible.” I fully agree with you here. So if you know this, why are you still in the paths of error and being fooled by the Devil?
Ralph,
BUT, your Official Church Website uses the quote IN THIS WAY to DEFINE THE TOPIC:
As a great colonizer, civic and Church leader, and provider for his family, President Brigham Young exemplified the living, practical gospel. He emphasized in his teachings and in his life that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the way to salvation for mankind and also “is a matter-of-fact religion, and taketh hold of the every-day duties and realities of this life” (DBY, 12)
The terms are used interchangeably, in many many instances of Church History. And here is one subheading from the Thread:
The gospel is a guide for daily life—a practical religion.
Gospel by McConkie:
The fulness of the gospel consists in those laws, doctrines, ordinances, powers, and authorities needed to enable men to gain the fulness of salvation. Those who have the gospel fulness do not necessarily enjoy the fulness of gospel knowledge or understand all of the doctrines of the plan of salvation. But they do have the fulness of the priesthood and sealing power by which men can be sealed up unto eternal life. The fulness of the gospel grows out of the fulness of the sealing power and not out of the fulness of gospel knowledge. –Mormon Doctrine
Religion by John Taylor:
Our religion binds men and women for time and all eternity. This is the religion that Jesus taught—it had power to bind on earth and to bind in heaven, and it had power to loose on earth and to loose in heaven [see Matthew 16:19]. We believe in the same principles, and we expect, in the resurrection, that we shall associate with our wives and have our children sealed to us by the power of the holy priesthood, that they may be united with us worlds without end. –Teachings of John Taylor, 193
Ok Ralph, I’m sincerely stumped. How is Religion NOT the Gospel according to Mormon Authorities? Can you explain the diff, aside from religion is the practice of the gospel. I get that point, but the two terms are still used interchangeably in Mormonism.
Ralph, remember, your Heavenly Father and your Jesus Christ are not the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ of Christianity. Our Father in Heaven has always been God. There never was a time when he was not God. Your HF was once a man. That’s blasphemy and heresy. Our Jesus Christ is also God. There was never a time when he was not God. He is equal to God the Father. Read Philippians 2:5-11. Your Jesus Christ is the literal offspring of your HF and one of his spirit wives, and so are we. He is not the creator of all things like the bible says, he is a created being, just like his father and us. He is also the product of an actual physical sexual union between HF and Mary, the mother of Jesus. That’s also blasphemy and heresy. Our Jesus Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient, yours was not.
Chuckle, a friend sent me a picture of a marquee sign outside a Baptist Church.
First Baptist Church
Don’t Pray About The Book Of Mormon. That’s How They Get You!
Janet.
bfwjr,
Thanks for the great news !
Janet, For someone who claims “perfect knowledge” you sure do skip over a lot of questions.
Quit holdin out on us.
Well Ralph here’s the deal you follow a guy who you claim as a great prophet of God who was an avid practitioner of occult magic, who ran about the country side scrying with a magic rock, who practiced occult second sight vision, who “married” at least thirty-three women and girls, some of the women who were married to other men, who stole and introduced occult Free Masonry rituals and introduced them as “sacred” rituals, and BTW a religion that adorns its temples with occult symbols and that has past leaders that claim spirit visitors like the signers of the Declaration of Independence…….and you defend it all, embrace it all and are totally duped by it all. Ralph that’s spiritual blindness.
You’re like a guy hooked on pornography who calls it “art” and has convinced himself of it. In the wild wacky world of Mormonism God is a former man and men will become gods where they will rule their own planetary systems, have endless Celestial sex with their goddess wives and have subjects that will love, adore and pray to them.
It’s amazing to get these glimpses into the minds of totally brainwashed cult members who think they’ve captured some incredible spiritual truths.
Ralph you place your hopes, dreams and aspirations on a false prophet and a false church just totally mezmerized by the thought of becoming a god.
Christians put their hope on the Lord Jesus Christ who alone can provide the gift of eternal life through the shed blood of the Cross. You’ve made a bad bet Ralph but you’ve got so many chips in the Mormon game that all you can do is try and rescue your equity and hope for the best. Unfortunately, unless you repent of this blasphemy and come to know God, Jesus and the plan of salvation He offers, you’re end will not be good. You’ve got a choice. It’s been explained to you over and over again and you steadfastly refuse to repent and come to God with a humble and sincere heart asking for His forgiveness that you might receive the gift of eternal life.
So who is this Jesus that Mormons reject in favor of the treasure hunter with the magic rock and a Jesus that is the spirit offspring of a man who made himself into a god and one of his many Celestial wives?
The most thoroughly documented teaching in the Bible, other than the Resurrection is the claim by Jesus that He was God incarnate. Isaiah, a real prophet, called Jesus the “everlasting Father” and the “Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6) In the NT the apostle John writes; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1) Later (John 1:14) he declares that this Word “…became flesh and dwelt among us.” And in (John 1:18) John writes “…no one has seen God at any time; God, the only begotten, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him.”
“Revealed” means “to take out.” The purpose of the Word in flesh was for the purpose of interpreting God the Father to mankind.
Jesus as the eternal Logos was “face to face with God”. He was the eternal Logos who became incarnate. He took on the form of man. Jesus became the mediator, the sole mediator, between God and man. Jesus is the divine-human interpreter of the invisible God.
Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus’ majesty as “the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person.” If we read this literally it says, “The radiance or effulgence of His glory and the image imprinted by His nature or character,” tell us the true identity of Jesus.
“The Christ of Scripture is not the wish-washy bloodless Jesus of certain liberal theologians, nor is He ‘the divine principle or Christ-idea’ of Christian Science, Unity, or the other gnostic cults. He is not the angelic creature of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the ‘advanced medium’ of the Spiritualists, or the abstract Principle of philosophic speculation. He is most certainly not the ‘historical Jesus’ gouged out of the NT by either ignoring or minimizing sections of the divine Record.
The Christ of Scripture is the very Oracle of God Himself, designated Logos or spokesman for the Father, in whose nailpierced hands the fate of all creation rests. Truly God has spoken uto us in this age ‘by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds’ (Hebrews 1:2).
(Essential Christianity: A Handbook of Basic Christian Doctrines by Dr. Walter Martin)
Mormonism is the height of human folly. A religion that exchanges the glory of the One, eternal, unchangeable God for the image of a man who became a god, one of countless gods. Mormons reject Jesus as he is revealed in God’s Word the Bible for a figure of a god, one of millions or perhaps billions of gods who was valiant in carrying out the mission outlined for him by the pantheon of gods who rule countless worlds and planets. This is a point of view that rivals the best that Greek and Roman mythology has to offer.
Satan has created, in the person of Joseph Smith, an effective tool to lead men away from God to follow the hope of Lucifer to rival God. Appealing to the pride of men, Satan through his agent Joseph Smith, has created a modern fruit of the tree that foolish men run to and devour in the hope that they will receive all knowledge and become like God.
The pride filled Mormon, foolishly thinking that Smith revealed special secret information, falls headlong into the abyss of spiritual destruction.
False prophets with false gods are like those spoken of by Jude when he writes “hidden reefs; clouds without water; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.”
The depth of the spiritual blindness of Mormons is fueled by their false hopes that they to may become gods. They reject God and His Christ and become intoxicated with their own vain ambitions.
OJ said
It is a bit of a long story. but here is a link to my blog and the page is written by me, it is a bit long but tells about how I came to witness to the LDS. This should give you some insite to me. Rick b
http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/01/my-callingtestominy.html
bfwjr: on April 20th, 2010
Janet, For someone who claims “perfect knowledge” you sure do skip over a lot of questions.
Quit holdin out on us.
That’s a good beginning since I don’t claim a “perfect knowledge” second, I pick and choose those question that have some merit and not the typical questions that are backed by lots of spin.
I have my favorite posters also, there are those like Falcon that never deviate from the same old exaggerated and foolish talk, and a agenda usually intended to deceive. One can get very tired of the same old hashed over lame talking points.
Grindael seems like a lost soul, not quiet sure that he made the right decision of leaving the LDS Church, so spinning facts and evidence even though he filters in some truths makes me wonder also about his agenda. Is he here to convince me, or convince himself, I think it is the latter.
bfwjr, I haven’t figured you out just yet, you seem civil enough.
Janet. 😉
bfwjr,
What a wonderful report of those folks fleeing the morg. It’s especially exciting if they have come to an understanding of who Jesus is and what He has done for them through the shed blood of the cross. The redemptive act of Jesus and God’s offer of the free gift of salvation to all who would accept Jesus’ finished work of the cross is truly Good News.
The flow out of Mormonism is truly remarkable when you figure that the headquarters of the LDS church has had to add a significant number of personnel to just handle resignations. Think of it, this isn’t just people fading away into inactivity which is about two-thirds of those on the LDS membership rolls, this is people who are telling the Morg that they reject Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current living “prophet”. What a great testimony!
I’d like to think our posting on MC had some small part in the process of people rejecting the false religious claims of Joseph Smith and coming to new life in Christ but I know it’s all the Father’s doing. John 6:44 says it all. Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice, recognize Him and flock to Him in faith. There are Mormons who God is reaching out to even now but they do not recognize His voice. The jibberish of Mormonism has caused them to ignore the call of Christ. They can’t pick out the sweet voice of the Savior who calls them to His side. They have chosen instead to heed the howl of the wolf who will, in the end devour them.
Janet said
Janet, I would myself go so far as to call you a liar and say this is a flat out lie. I say that and back it up with this, The questions I asked you were things about what Jesus said and did or what Paul said or did.
How is that back with lots of spin? they are not, You simply know that According to Gal 1:8-9 you are trying to defend a false gospel and you cannot stand up to the truth.
if you think I am wrong, then explain how? Rick b
Flat lie? did I not give you my rebuttal with the following:
“I did not know I gave a position? I just did not answer your question, big difference.”
You may have asked questions, and since I did not give a position does not make me a liar. That is a serious accusation against me, since I never said your questions were backed by spin.
How can I explain or convince anyone that the Gospel as taught in the BOM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price is true? You ask me to explain how, but the answer is not in me, but must come from God. How? Read, ponder, and pray.
Janet.