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125 Responses to Why are you trying to earn grace?
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wheeeeehhwwhew! that gave me chills.
Aaron, I’m thinking that this is going to be another of those times, when the LDS guests just can’t relate. When I had a small man-god, I had no idea how to appreciate him like this. You seriously have to realize how HUMONGOUS, how unimaginable God is, to see what He’s done, and care. And then… you get to the awesome, beautiful, CHILLS of just knowing that HE IS, and that HE SAVED YOU!
So sweet… thanks for posting. 😀
That was great!
I can’t say it any better than Set Free did.
Thanks Aaron.
I dont understand why anyone would want to live under the law, I have a hard enough time under grace and love. Rick b
Joseph Smith wrote in 1842: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).
Janet says, I believes that even with all that I do, it will never be enough to save me. Part of doing all I can do is repenting.
“except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” Luke 13:3
Grace will not save a unrepentant soul. Agree?
So the only difference is that the next step would be Baptism, is it essential or is it only symbolic?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Does one who professes that Jesus is the Christ, and my Lord and Savior qualify?
“Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
Doing the will of my Father, seems like there are steps required? Keeping the Commandment, Repenting, and Baptism, all these relate to a kind of work one must do.
Janet.
Janet quotes: “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”
I don’t think I’m alone on this. I strongly suspect he just might of been speaking about people who choose to worship “a god of flesh and bones who lives on or near a planet called Kolob”.
John 14:6 “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” It is not possible for Christians, who are a worshipers of the Truth, to bow under the yoke of seemingly endless Mormon falsehoods.
Janet, once again critical thinking and truth remain elusive to you. Living a lie is actually a slow, painful spiritual death. It is much better to face the truth and live.
Janet,
Can you tell me what the Bible says about how I must do works to be saved?
Then since I know you will gave me the verse about works with out faith is dead, let me add this, that verse does not say I must do a work to be saved in specif.
Now give me verses that state, I must do this….
this….
and this….
Then I know I am saved. Then explain how Jesus said, the only work I must do is believe on Him whom God sent.
How come the apostle Paul said he did NOT COME TO BAPTIZE, and he forgot who and how many he did baptize.
Then how come the apostle told the Jailer Believe and you will be saved.
And how come the Bible says we are saved by grace AND NOT BY WORKS.
And how come the bible tells us we are not under the law and how come we are not saved by our works. These Janet are just a few verses that I can provide if you are not aware of them since you probably have never read them, but on the off chance you have, please explain why they are their if your view about works must be done are true. Rick b
Janet-
The verse you quote about baptism has nothing to do with a water baptism. Let’s look at the verse just before and the verse immediately following.
“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:4-6
Jesus is speaking of the first birth, that of a women when you are born of water. That is the fleshly birth when you come into the world out of the bag of water inside your mother’s womb. The second birth, being born again, is that of the Spirit which happens when you become a follower of Jesus, you are baptized by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not commanding us to be baptized with water in order to be saved.
And Matthew 7:22, again if you read the entire verse and into the next verse you find that those He is talking to are doing good works in His name. Therefore He is not talking about those who have not done good works.
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22-23
You really need to read the context around the verses you throw out!
I’ve got a question for you, messianic,
Firstly, I’d like to say your analysis of John 3:4-6 is right – in referring to “baptism of water” Jesus is using an idiom to speak of the birth that brings human beings into life.
If we follow the idiom, though, we come to a rather blindingly obvious conclusion – in order to inherit the Kingdom of God, we must be human beings, i.e. born as human beings.
The thing is, this conclusion might be blindingly obvious to us, but was it blindingly obvious to the people around when Jesus said it? What I mean was, there might have been the common misperception that the Kingdom of God belonged to heavenly, or angelic beings; or to super-humans; or to those who never got touched by the world.
In this context, Jesus is bringing the astonishingly counter-cultural message that, no, the Kingdom of God belongs to the ordinary, the mundane and the not-so-special oiks, hoi-polloi and petty sinners that we call people.
I’m curious to know if anyone else sees it this way.
This would at least jive with one of the OT passages that appears to be a favorite with the writer to the Hebrews
Psalm 8:3-5 and Heb 2:5-10.
janet wrote
Janet,
When it comes to how well you keep commandments, repent, get baptized and do all the other works that one must do, the Pharisees of the New Testament beat you easily. They were much better than you, by a country mile.
According to these criteria, they must have been the most righteous people ever to walk the earth, which is why Jesus says something like “well done, you have finally earned enough to inherit the Kingdom”.
…wait up, that’s not what he said was it?
Dang it, whenever we come up with a fine theory about how we have a right to enter the Kingdom, based on all the good stuff we have done, Jesus closes the door on us. Geesh, what gave him the right to do that?
Is there any hope for any of us?
(Hint: Yes, but you need to understand first that a free gift cannot be earned)
Maybe it is just me, or my mac, but I get an error message in the video window, and yet I can go to youtube and see and hear the video. Do you have any idea, Aaron? Maybe this is happening to others. Otherwise great song, great message…
OK, my turn to repeat one of about five standard riffs I pull-out at appropriate times.
Mormonism is a totally different religion that has nothing to do with Christianity. In the world of Mormonism, what the Mormons post is true as far as they understand Mormonism (which incidentally appears to have individual “takes” and also changes depending on the messages being received by Mormon leaders from their god on or near Kolob).
So Mormons “work” to become gods. That’s what Mormonism is all about, becoming a god. In that context it makes sense that a lot of doing has to be done by individual Mormons to transform themselves into gods. So when a Mormon pulls a quote out of the Bible, it works in their little god-maker program because that’s their view through the magic Mormon spectacles. In the real world of Christianity, their Biblical references and applications are seen as, to be charitable, a joke (oops not to charitable).
So as Christians we can rejoice together in the awesome nature, grace and love of the One, only, everlasting, unchanging God who through His mercy, grace and benevolence has extended to us the gift of eternal life through faith in the compete sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. We understand that the life we now lead, since being born again, is out of gratitude for what God has done for us. We were instantly transformed in God’s eyes, through faith, and have been declared righteous by Him. We are continually cleansed by the blood of Christ, without which, we have no hope.
So why do Mormons think they are going to become gods? Well, because Joseph Smith told them so. Smith also told them, through his BoM, that the Bible is corrupted and can’t be trusted. What a great way for him to set himself up as the revelator of all that is true. And through his very creative use of revelatory progress, Mormon beliefs, doctrines, practice and yes even history can be changed. I don’t know if that makes all previous revelation “corrupt” or not but it is an ingenious way of dealing with troublesome prophesies that don’t come true or doctrines that become socially unacceptable. The rest, of course, can be explained away by pithy little sayings that provide Mormons with “all better now” blankeys.
Perspective is everything and if someone believes they are going to become a god, everything is viewed through that prism. That’s why it is basically unproductive to quote the Bible to a cult member. They’ll torture God’s Word until it reinforces what they want to believe. Heaven help us if a Mormon has what they believe is a “spiritual” experience or “feeling”. That proves to them, despite and Biblical evidence or ordinary common sense, that what they believe is true.
There is One God. He is holy, righteous and unchanging. The Bible is crystal clear on this. Man is separated from God because of our sin. God through His love and mercy made Himself the perfect sacrifice for our sin. He died for us. There is nothing we can do to add to God’s perfect sacrifice. Through His grace He reaches out to us with the offer of the free gift of eternal life. When we accept this gift, by faith, we are made right with Him. Nothing we can do will add to what God has already done for us. Because we have received this gift we now cooperate with the grace of God to be transformed into being the righteous people He has declared us to be.
John 6:44 will make sense to those Mormons who are on their way out of the maze they are in.
Chuckle 🙂 everyone of you have given fine translations that work for not having to do any works (requirements) on your part but you fail to realize that trying to change scripture is to your own detriment.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Articles of Faith #4:
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Janet.
I think there is an intellectual limitation that keeps evangelicals from understanding our doctrine of works, faith, grace, etc. because you never come close to describing it accurately. Either that, or you are simply being dishonest.
Will we be judged by our works? If so, how does that differ from being saved?
Messianic- your interpretation of John 3 is your opinion on the matter. Can you provide any concrete scripture evidence that you are right?
My goodness how OJ likes to continually attack the intellectual horsepower of the Christian posters here. It’s just a rude insult that bears no basis in reality. But when a Mormon runs out of anything of value to add to a discussion that’s where they go. It’s either that or “we’re being persecuted” or “I bear my testimony”. OJ really doesn’t like to play nice with others. I think the Christian posters here are a pretty smart bunch and demonstrate it on a continually basis. I also think that as an indoctrinated cult member old OJ has trouble keeping up sometimes. It has nothing to do with intelligence but with too much time spent in the company of other cult members.
So OJ old buddy give us the 1, 2, 3, of works, grace and etc. if you could. I must remind you that many of the posters here at MC used to be Mormons so they evidently weren’t instructed correctly while Mormons.
So here’s the deal. Mormons believe they are going to become gods, right? Mormons believe there is a dual level of salvation, right? A general kind of salvation that everybody gets and then a second level of salvation and it’s this second level where the god-maker program comes in. In order to achieve the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, Mormons have to do stuff, lots of stuff. If they fall short in the doing stuff category, then Jesus fills in the difference in the performance gap. That’s where the “after all you can do” slogan comes from. Also, it must be said, that really to get to the very highest level of the Celestial kingdom, where I guess the best planets are kept, a male Mormon must practice polygamy. That’s what Joe Smith said and he was the instigator of the Mormon program and, you know, rules are rules.
So OJ insult the intellect of the Christians here. We’ve got thick skin unlike Mormons who have thick and hard hearts!
I notice our Mormon poster friends get particularly enraged, nasty and condecending when the Christians give a clear and precise message of who God is and what He has done for us through the Cross of Jesus Christ. This really seems to get the Mormons worked-up. Now why is that?
I would guess it’s the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a direct threat to all they hold near and dear. It bears no resemblance to the Mormon god or the Mormon gospel of becoming a god through a progressive self-improvement program.
You know the devil really hates the cross of Christ because it was here that Jesus purchased our salvation through the shedding of His blood. It’s through this shed blood that God has declared those of us who have come to Him in faith as totally righteous. Now Mormons get enraged at the idea that God would offer to sinful men a free gift a part from what anyone could do on their own efforts. That’s what grace is. It’s not about filling in a performance gap between God’s standard of absolute perfection and our attempts at achieving personal righteousness.
No in Mormonism it’s all about “ME”. What I can do to qualify for the big prize of my very own planet where Mrs. god and I can procreate spirit children into eternity. About “ME” having my own spirit children become some humanoid and pray to me and adore me and where I can seek advice from my immediate upline in the god program and all of the grandfather, uncle, and cousin gods that hang around the cosmos trying to learn more secret stuff so they can reach even higher levels of enlightenment.
No wonder the heathen rage against God, His Christ and His plan of salvation. It’s all about God and not about “ME”!
Janet wrote, “So the only difference is that the next step would be Baptism, is it essential or is it only symbolic?”
Let me take it a step further and point out that Mormons believe to attain the “highest” degree of glory in heaven, ie. the celestial kingdom, they must go through the temple to be endowed and sealed. It used to be taught that you had to be sealed to more than one wife. I digress.
Joseph Smith’s older brother Alvin died before receiving the so-called saving ordinances. Yet JS claims he saw in vision his brother in the Celestial Kingdom. How is it possible in mormon beliefs that such a thing could happen without the physical ordinances taking place? Alvin had never received the “saving” ordinances of the temple, yet when JS claimed to have a vision of the Celestial Kingdom, there was Alvin!
So I ask you Janet, essential or symbolic?
Falcon, I view Jims tactics as consistent with what I wrote about them addressing Christian doctrine. Since we’ll obviously misrepresent what it is they say and since we don’t get it, there’s just no point in talking about it. It comes very close to an issue of arrogance, and it is an exclusionary tactic.
It tells the reader/listener that only if you get our doctrine will we talk about it, and you’ll only get it when you accept it by faith. So, the result is that only the believers themselves will be able to discuss.
A short while ago, Jim promised to tell me what his views are and why my representations are wrong. I have not heard a peep since and still don’t know why my representations are not accurate.
So, I really do not think LDS want an open and frank discussion of their doctrine, or of ours. Having such a conversation requires them to view the evidence in an unbiased manner, and they cannot do so.
Falcon also says, “I notice our Mormon poster friends get particularly enraged, nasty and condecending when the Christians give a clear and precise message of who God is and what He has done for us through the Cross of Jesus Christ. This really seems to get the Mormons worked-up.”
Which is why they cannot in good faith discuss our doctrine. Is it also why they do not like the image of the cross???
…
Jim asks, “Will we be judged by our works? If so, how does that differ from being saved?”
It is different because the first priority is to be with Christ for eternity. The first order of business is whether or not you accepted Christ. The rest is gravy, and does not alter that simple aspect.
Janet I love how you avoided what I asked, You lds are FAMOUS for that, Good job Janet.
Now here is a scripture for you, Gal 5:4
Did you know if you try to be justified by the law (works) you have fallen from Grace?
How come LDS teach we must add works to be saved, yet Jesus says just the opposite? Jesus said the the religious leaders who asked about works,
Here are more verses,
Them seem to say, we do not need to be baptized to be saved. Rick b
Janet,
I’m glad you quoted your AOF, because it teaches a different doctrine than the Bible. According to JS, salvation is dependent on obedience to the laws and ordinances (I won’t put the phrase “of the gospel” here because the JS message is really not good news). The other Christian posters have competently provided ample biblical references to the truth that we are saved by faith alone. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to be judged on my works. The only thing my works could ever merit me is death. That was one of the first truths I learned coming out of Mormonism. When I stand to be judged, my LORD Jesus Christ will stand up for me and say that I am justified by my faith in Him. That’s good news!! I think the problem you are having is that you think we as Christians can live lives of debauchery and sin. Paul is clear on this, and the answer is that we can’t. There’s a synergistic event that happens in our lives: God extends His grace and we respond. Our response is living lives of obedience because we want to, not out of fear that if we don’t we will suffer eternal death. Now, we are not talking about obedience to ordinances such as baptism (BTW, the Acts passage you offer does not teach that baptism is a must; the verb tense doesn’t bear this out. Besides, in the very next chapter, Peter preaches repentance, but doesn’t add “and be baptized”). The law is the love commandments. We need to be obedient in love. But, this can only happen as we are attached to Jesus Christ in love relationship.
Peace…
OJ,
Messianic is teaching the passage correctly, and it is the result of fine exegetical study. One has to realize that the subject of the pericope is not baptism, but the Holy Spirit. When we study our past to the Genesis account, we learn that we are born with sin nature (we are not born with divine nature as LDS doctrine teaches; such a teaching is not biblical). This is the result of the Fall. We need a second birth in order to live forever, and that is being born of the Spirit. The biblical text bears this out as the NT is replete with the teaching of living Spirit-indwelled and Spirit-empowered lives. So, the passage in John has nothing to do with baptism as a requirement for salvation and eternal life.
Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is Jesus Christ Himself. The old covenant was the Abrahamic covenant, of which the sign was circumcision. The bow in the clouds was the sign of the Noachich covenant. The purpose of such signs are to remind of God’s promise to us. Therefore, it is not the sign that saves us, but God’s promises. In the end, baptism doesn’t save us; Jesus’death on the cross and resurrection saves us.
Mormonism does not stay focused on Jesus Christ, but redirects the focus to man’s works. The Work of Jesus Christ then becomes a mere ancillary event. His grace becomes His response to our works. The truth of the matter is that our works are our response to God’s grace. This is why I maintain that Mormonism teaches a backward theology.
I know it’s difficult for you, OJ, because you have been so indoctrinated with JS theology. Christ is reaching out to you with the truth about His grace. He doesn’t want your works. He wants you.
Peace…
jackg,
So good to see you post here again. I was just this afternoon thinking about you and wondering what the Lord is doing in your life. I really appreciate your posts because you’ve been there (in Mormonism) and can readily relate to what Mormons are thinking and feeling.
I often wonder why Mormons want to discuss baptism. I really don’t get it! I don’t know of any Christian who hasn’t been baptized. I’ve been baptized twice and I’m certainly not counting on the ordinance of baptism to save me. The reason I did it twice was because I wasn’t aware of it the first time, being an infant. I thought a long time about getting baptized as an adult. I asked God about it and He was pretty ambivalent about it, but I decided to do it and actually got baptized in a river.
As far as rituals go, coming from a high church background, I’ve done a lot of them. I received my first communion with all of the instruction that went with it. Made my first confession about the same time; went in the box, got absolved of my sins, did my penance, the whole deal. At thirteen I got confirmed with a lot more instruction. The bishop came out to our church all dressed-up in his bishop vestments, pointy hat and all. I remember him being an incredibly funny old man when he gave his homily. Anyway I got anointed with oil, got a new name and slapped in the face. Actually it wasn’t a slap but more of a tap on the cheek the meaning of which that we had to be ready to suffer for Christ.
We got to pick our new names, but for the life of me I can’t remember what that was about. All I know was that I picked “Fabian” but the nun being nun to amused changed it on the card I handed to the bishop. It read “Michael”. I was not happy! I’m still not! Bad nun, bad (shame works on Catholics).
In my mid-twenties I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior and all of the rituals I had participated in couldn’t do for me what Christ had done on the cross. Nothing compares with knowing Him.
Falcon,
You are absolutely right! I used to think that I knew Jesus, but I didn’t know the Person of Jesus Christ as attested to by the biblical text. I didn’t realize that He was Grace. He is sufficient for my salvation.
I appreciate your forthrightness regarding your religious background and your faith. Even when we’re believing false doctrines, God’s grace is forever at work in our lives to call us into a love relationship with Him.
Mormons like to talk about baptism because they really think they have the upperhand when talking about faith and works. But, alas, faulty exegesis exposes their sandy foundation. The sad thing is that they will parrot their leaders and reject those who have been gifted at exegesis. I have yet to see an LDS leader offer an exegetical work to enlighten the rest of the world where we are supposedly in the dark. Even though Aaron’s April Fools Day joke was only a joke, it would be wonderful if Thomas S. Monson et al took the time out of their busy schedules and do the supposed work of apostles and prophets–which isn’t running a church, but enlightening the world. The way I see it, however, they are only comfortable addressing the faithful who have been programmed NOT to question the word of the GAs. There is no accountability for what they say. Now, if they were to engage with Christian apologists, they would be blown out of the water.
The thing that amuses me is how Mormons seem to believe that we have a thing against good works. Works are a part of Christian living–but they’re not a prerequisite to salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 make this abundantly clear: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Good works are the fruit of salvation–not the root. Jesus is the Root!
Peace…
Jim Olsen,
I would like to thank you for showing up and answering the questions being put forth. It is obvious you are outnumbered. Is it possible for you to email some of your Mormon friends for some help? Thanks again. Sincerely, bfwjr
ward asked
Ward,
I don’t know how the mods have set up their website, so I can’t provide a solution to your issue. However, you might start with finding whether you have Flash player enabled (P.S. the question of whether you want Flash is a different matter – word is that it’s a resource hog, and that’s why Apple kept it off the new iPad).
I’m using a Mac with Firefox and Safari, no problem. Same thing when I’m using the Windows computers at work (IE8).
Is there anything that the mods want to say?
Evangelicals really skip over anything that even smells of good works in context with grace. So what we see is a good life, obedience to the commandments, serving families, friends and neighbors (good works), as a result of receiving grace. Totally amazing what Grace does to the person wherein if for the rest on ones life nothing other than a confession of faith (Christ is Lord and Saviour) would seem to guarantee Salvation. This would seem to give meaning to faith without works is dead. He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. The idea of having to earn salvation or even of having to engage in certain acts because one has been given grace plays no part in this equation. It reminds me of scripture from 2 Timothy 4:3
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears”.
Where do I stand, my works are important and some very necessary, Baptism, Temple Ordinances, etc, but they are not sufficient. You see I don’t believe I can earn Celestial Glory, (Eternal Life), and unlike Evangelicals there is no guarantee that a act of confession merits anyone salvation. So we must all agree, it is by the through the merits of Christ after all else we can do.
One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works, most Christians believe this, and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something. So again it fits in nicely with Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost.
“God’s generosity [or grace] toward us is not to be expressed by the dilution of the demands of duty that He lays upon us. Where much is given, much is expected—not the other way around. Nor is divine generosity to be expressed by a lessening of God’s standards concerning what is to be done. Rather, when much is given and much is done by the disciple, then God’s generosity is overwhelming!”
Source, Neal A. Maxwell
Mormons can explain all day and all night for that matter, about Mormon grace and works and it really makes no difference. The reason it makes no difference is because they don’t know who God is. If they knew who God is they’d know His plan of salvation and what His expectations are for those who recognize Him as God. So if they want to explain to us the Mormon requirements for becoming a Mormon god, and the relationship between their concept of works and grace while on this quest, that’s fine but it has no relevance in this world and certainly not the next.
Now Mormons buy the Smith tale and all of these dubious yarns about Christianity being lost and the Bible being corrupt and hence the need for Smith’s false religion. Applying a little effort to an actual study of Christianity and the Bible from sources that actually know something about these subjects, will lead a Mormon out of Mormonism. Now there is effort involved in doing this and there’s also the emotional turmoil of finding out that the religion one has put their hopes, dreams and aspirations in is phony. At the end of the day, about the only thing a Mormon has left to hold on to is a testimony they cling to because at one time they felt good about Mormonism.
This is a religion that has rejected God and in so doing has cut off Mormons from the promise of eternal life to all who acknowledge Him as God and receive the gift He offers.
janet,
I read your last post quite carefully. Much of it doesn’t seem to point in one direction or the other, except the cartoon-versions of the Evangelicals (“unlike Evangelicals there is no guarantee that a act of confession merits anyone salvation”), which are foreign to my experience.
Ironically, its not the Orthodox Christians who disconnect faith from works, but the Mormons. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young strenuously argued that you must “enter into” polygamy. Modern Mormons are prepared to believe this commandment as an intellectual proposition, but they will not do anything about it.
You mention four “works”; “Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost.” Are you sure you’ve got the right list to work to?
The OT has 613 commandments. Do you keep them all? What happens when you have ticked off all 613 commandments from your list? The answer’s a bit like a joke; you have a list with 613 commands that have been ticked off. Does your “ticked off” list defeat death and restore your relationship with God? No it doesn’t, and neither does any other list. This is the impossibility of trying to live by law.
And what about all the other “have-tos” that Mormonism introduces to its followers every time they achieve a new level? It seems to me that the Mormon leadership keeps introducing new “works” so that no-one else can claim to be as accomplished as them in their religion. Heaven forbid that someone more qualified than Joseph Smith should turn up and start challenging him!
There’s a story about a man who progressed through all the levels of Freemasonry (which is the model that Mormonism is based on). He got to the very top, in the hope that he would find the profound secrets he thought were there. He thought that by getting into the innermost of the inner circles, the universe would yield its secrets to him. However, when he got there, all he found was an empty room. He broke his vows of secrecy and told everyone who would listen.
…ctd…
…That’s the end-goal of your current journey, janet. That’s where your Mormon-works will take you.
An empty room with nothing in it.
So in the first century, the apostles and early Christians practiced polygamy which is the Mormon pathway to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom and the highest degree, I guess, of godhood. The apostles and early Christians did this program, there is no doubt about it. Now this was all lost of course after the death of the apostles. The fact that it isn’t in the Bible or any history of the early Church is due to a vast conspiracy that hid it for at least nineteen hundred years.
But low-and-behold, a guy who previously ran about the woods in the middle of the night with a magic rock looking for buried treasure proclaims that he has recovered this long lost pathway to men becoming gods. But wouldn’t you know it, this sacred and wonderful principle of plural marriage has once again been lost to those peculiar people who had embraced it. But wait, there is a group that has “restored” all of this that was lost to those who have rejected it. They are called the FLDS and they are holding fast to these truths that were revealed to and restored by the man with the magic rock. All who have forsaken this principle will not enter the Celestial kingdom and the reward that awaits those who have held fast to this long lost truth that has been restored in these latter days.
Martin stated, “The OT has 613 commandments. Do you keep them all?”
This is what I keep.
Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
This is not a end goal, it is exactly what the Lord means by good works and how we will be judged.
Janet.
So Mormon salvation is a little like buying TV service from your local cable or satellite provider. Everyone who has ever lived gets the basic package regardless. You don’t even have to subscribe to it. However if you want to add channels or get one of the premium packages, you have to pay for it. In the Mormon program “paying for it” would include doing rituals and a variety of other activities identified as works. Now if a person doesn’t mind getting fewer channels and are OK with the service they are receiving, the basic package will do just fine. However if someone wants to move-up, well they have to get busy.
Becoming a Mormon god, which is the point of tier two Mormonism, requires a laundry list of works which are at the same time defined and ill-defined. But that’s OK, it’s Mormonism.
We can see a clear distinction between this pagan religion and the Gospel of Jesus Christ which the Bible tells us is God’s plan of salvation. God’s desire is for us to be reconciled to Him through the shed blood of the cross of His Son Jesus Christ. God in His infinite wisdom, love and mercy has provided this pathway to Him by extending His grace through which we come to Him in faith. The Bible is clear when it says we are saved by grace through faith a part from our works. We can’t do anything to merit God’s reward. It is a gift.
This is Christianity. Mormonism with its multiplicity of gods and works centered program leading to the deification of men isn’t even an off-shoot of Christianity. It is a religious system that is an affront and in-your-face reproach to God. Mormons have placed their hope in a guy who wasn’t even a very good false prophet. His foolishness is apparent to anyone who has the spiritual discernment to see through his ruse. Being spiritual seduced is a lot like any kind of seduction. Just wave a shiny object in front of some people and they fail to notice the dangers attached as they reach to retrieve (the object).
Janet,
You are on the right track with regard to obedience. What you miss is the idea that we obey out of love for God and not out of earning or avoiding something. So, if you were to stick to that, you’d be fine; unfortunately, your religion compels you to add more and more as requirements to enter God’s presence.
You quoted Maxwell, who used to be my favorite GA. The only thing wrong with what he says is that within the context of Mormonism, he is tying it into earning celestial glory. His faulty presupposition is that we can merit something through our works. We can’t, except death. It’s all about Christ’s grace to be saved. Works will naturally follow as the fruit.
Peace…
Janet, yet AGAIN, You go out of your way to avoid everything I asked OF YOU.
Can you tell me why you believe we must do works, yet JESUS, Not me, or Falcon, or Sharon, or any poster here, But JESUS SAID, The ONLY WORK we MUST DO is to BELIEVE.
You said simply saying I believe is not good enough, you seem to teach something other than what Jesus taught.
Again, what about Jesus NOT BAPTIZING people, or Paul saying I was not SENT by JESUS to BAPTIZE.
Are you going to avoid this or answer it. I will keep reminding you, so people who (Lurk) Will see Mormons dodging questions and not answering them.
Them they will understand why we accuse guys of doing that, because you do. Rick b
For those who think works are necessary or earn you something before God. Jesus gave a simple parable to correct this misunderstanding (which was common even when He walked the earth): The Prodigal Son.
The prodigal son had taken his inheritance, his gifts from his father and squandered them. So he made a plan to get back into his father’s house – he would work his way back into his fathers favor. He would be a servant in his fathers house. When the father saw him coming – he ran to him and welcomed him back into the house. He killed the fatted calf and had a big celebration. The faithful son who had labored alongside his father was jealous and upset – he too thought you earned your way into the father’s kingdom – he had been doing just that faithfully for years, when here comes the prodigal son who is immediately welcomed in – no earning, no working, no meriting forgiveness – free grace.
Jesus told this parable to demonstrate the Kingdom of Heaven. We are forgiven and welcomed in freely – don’t think for a minute that you are going to work your way into the Father’s presence. Through Jesus we are forgiven and will live with God forever. Jesus suffered for our redemption – we cannot add one thing to that to merit God’s favor or forgiveness.
Mobaby, LDS seem to ignore the verse that says, we are SAVED by GRACE ALONE, not of WORKS, lest any MAN should BOAST.
To all the LDS that feel works are involved, First off, Jesus said, if you break one law you have broken them all, so right their your keeping the law and being perfect in law ends.
Then from this point on, if you could keep the laws, Jesus said, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, Did we not do all these works in YOUR NAME? We cast out Demons, We healed the sick, We did this….
and that…
Yet what did Jesus say? He said I never knew you. So works in the Name of Jesus did not and does not save those people.
Then I know mormons deny Death bed conversions. Why is that? It’s Simple, the people on their death beds that do die, and do not recover from a miracle, they cannot do any works, so since they could not do works, how can they be saved by grace alone? How can they be baptized if they say, Lord forgive me, then die?
What about the thief on the cross? Dont say, proxy baptism, because you dont even know his name, so how can you do it? Then what about people on death row, who convert at the last minute, again, they cannot do good works. Rick b
I think it would be helpful if someone would give us a clear 1,2,3 as far as the different levels of reward in the Mormon men to god program, and what a person (man) would have to do to climb each rung on the ladder until they reached the ultimate goal of becoming a god.
We know that everyone that ever lived is going to get Mormon basic cable. Doesn’t matter if you were the biggest whore monger in the county. You get a least basic Mormon cable. It’s really not such a bad deal if you don’t mind watching endless reruns of “The Price is Right”, “Leave it to Beaver” or “The Dukes of Hazard”. Throw in the “Beverly Hillbillies” and maybe “ESPN Classic” and it might not be such a bad deal. However on second thought, some of what is included in basic cable may seem like hell.
So how does someone get basic Mormon cable “Plus”. I’m guessing that’s what all sincere born again Christians and slacker Mormons get. The slacker Mormons because they either didn’t do the right stuff or not enough of the right stuff to get level three programming. No premium movie channels of course but probably something like A&E, the History Channel, Biography, maybe AMC, TCM, the Food Channel and the Good House Keeping Channel, the last one especially for Mormon women who were married to slacker Mormon males. There’s some amount of “doing” involved in getting into this tier and it’s what all sincere Christians do as a result of their faith.
But here’s the biggy, tier three. How does someone rate the premium channels found in Mormon cable with it’s bronze, gold, silver and finally platinum rewards. The colors signify reward levels that can be achieved even within the premium Mormon cable program. How does someone get that?
I’ve never really seen anyone clearly outline the Mormon three tier program here on MC so I’m left to my creative imagination and my analogies; in my effort to understand!
Falcon, milk before meat, and you are still in mommies womb, so you won’t get it. If you can’t even get the basics, why even go further?
I jest, of course, but probably not too much.
Or maybe, it is because they don’t really know themselves. Or a third option is that they do know and could tell but are scared of saying so here, because they know we will call the doctrine into question.
But I think they should clarify it all, even if we disagree with them. At least we’d know something solid in their faith. And the waffling and unclarity that they have in their faith is a big problem.
janet replied to me
Janet,
Thanks for your reply. I don’t have a problem with it on face value, and I would sincerely welcome a discussion of the relationship between commandments, faith and works. Suffice it to say that I (and all the Evs that I know) are as concerned as any Mormon about the apparent separation of faith and works (per Romans 6:1, James 2:18 etc). The key issues would be; how “works” relate to salvation? Faith in whom or what? What did the NT authors mean when they used the words “law” and “works” (technically, the Greek equivalents).
However, there remains the problem of the Mormon agenda. Specifically, you quote Matt 22:37-39. The thing is, these commands have been public knowledge for 2000 years, and they can be “revealed” to anyone who would care to read them or listen to them.
If, as you state, these commandments of Jesus were all that were required, what was Joseph Smith doing in “restoring” a lost Gospel?
The only way I can see it happening, is that Matt 22:37-39 cannot be all that is required. There must be more, like the commandment to enter into polygamy.
Again I ask you, according to the Mormon “gospel”, are you sure you’ve got the right list to work to?
Janet has you all on the LDS salvation merry-go-round. Janet can claim that “salvation” is by following the greatest commandments and that is all, but like Falcon has been saying, salvation doesn’t equal exaltation. Neither Janet or any other Mormon will ever know if they have done enough to earn that coveted brass ring until they are finally judged by their works. In fact, I don’t believe “Janet” can earn it at all without her male counterpart. They just keep working their tails off hoping that they don’t apostasize and end up in outer darkness. That’s what happened to poor Jackg, Setfree, Grindael, and the others. They just couldn’t hack it and their sin overwhelmed them. They lost their testimony. Most of them comfort themselves with believing they will squeak into some existence in the Celestial Kingdom apart from the slackers like us who may serve them from the Terrestrial Kingdom, because they got married in the temple, have received their endowments, obey the word of wisdom, and do temple work. In short, I don’t think Janet will answer your question because she doesn’t have a clue how to get what she so desperately wants, to be God.
liv4jc, well at least I know more then Jackg, Setfree, Grindael and others and what they apparently forgot or are in denial of.
I could never imagine being more happier, more filled, more knowledgeable, more understanding, and more relieved then when I first gained my testimony. What else can one do but believe the words of Christ as found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Peal of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants? What a gold mine of light and knowledge, I just wish more people had a open mind.
Janet.
Yes it is so apparent that when we discuss these matters with Mormons we are definitely engaging in cross-cultural communication. We know what the big prize in the sky is for Mormons and what they have to do to achieve it. So when they talk about grace and works it’s all about becoming a god. This “general” or “universal” salvation they keep out front while they tuck their obsession with becoming gods neatly away so the world won’t know what Mormonism is all about.
They love to sound all evangelical talking about having accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and seeking to keep the greatest of the commandments. It’s all Mormon blue smoke and sweet sounding rhetoric. It’s false piety masking insufferable pride. They will never tell a prospect what Mormonism is all about up front. It’s all a facade masking a religion that’s not a perfect counterfeit but an effective one as long as folks don’t ask the tough questions.
Who do Mormons think they’re fooling anyway when they come on sites like this and try to make Mormonism sound like something it clearly is not.
What the lurkers need to understand is that their is One God and He is nothing like the pantheon of gods that Mormons recognize as legitimate deities. Mormonism is a pagan religion with false gods. A whole lot of time, money and effort spent on a religious system that does little more than suck it’s members try in order to feed the beast. What dupes!
Jesus said…
then Janet comes along and says, Mormonism teaches…
It does not line up with what Jesus said, yet Janet believe her church not Jesus, and people wonder why we question the LDS, They get mad at us, but we/I provide evidence, and then Janet Dodges questions, yet People think we Christians are attacking the belief’s of the LDS. Yet it is the LDS who deny what the Bible says, and then tell us they believe the bible, But then when we point this out, we get blamed. How sad. Why not call out the LDS to answer questions, instead of giving them a free pass to dodge questions? Rick b
It has been a while since I have posted a statement, aside from the one I did this past week.
When did it get so vicious on this. I remember much more civil discourse. Ladies and gentlemen, can’t we please be ladies and gentlemen about our disagreements. We do not have to be like-minded individuals to show consideration for ones beliefs and how it may be quite offensive to mock someone for their faith in a particular doctrine.
Now for my statement on this matter:
I do believe it is through Jesus Christ that man/woman (getting a little PC here) may be saved. I in no way believe that anything could have been accomplished without the great atonement of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I love Him and, as He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Janet already posted the fourth article of my faith. Each of these can be supported in the Bible. None of them are simply figments of our scriptural imagination. I am sure none of you can doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is essential. Repentance of our sins; His atonement was about wiping away our sins, so of course that has to be on the table. Baptism was something done before Christ’s ministry, and it was obviously carried out after the sacrifice, so there is evidence of pre and post sacrifice baptismal ordinances taking place. Then there is the gift of the spirit. This is essential in order for us to recieve further truth from our Heavenly Father.
We call them the first principles and ordinances because it is what Christ shows us we must do. I am sure I will get disagreement on some if not all of this. That makes no mind to me, but that I believe in them is important.
What I ask for Evangelicals is what do you do to show your faith/practice of your religious principles? Do you have basic beliefs that you feel you must adhere to in order to, at least on a personal level, know that you are a true believer in Christ? I do not ask mockingly, but with an open mind as to want to know how differ.
I think there are many on this blog who would love to have more of that type of discussion. I am sure this place was not set up to put people at odds one with another, but to engage in lively spiritual debate as to what tyhe truth is about He who created us in His image, and His very Son who sacrificed Himself for us all.
I just think the better part of any type of debate is first placing down our beliefs on both sides and simply comparing and contrasting the these two sides.
I am sure both evangelicals and lds alike would love to engage in such a discussion. There is no sin in trying to engage one another in trying to convince what the other side believes as try and sharing our feelings and faith on the matters of the most tender nature dealing with our individual relationship with God.
I hope we all remember the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves, and that contention is not of Christ.
May God bless all of you with this in mind.
Jacob5 commented
I just went over your creed, sorry Wentworth Letter, again at http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html to see if they can be supported by the Bible. Here’s my quick analysis;
AOF 1 – Yes, with some reservations (Maybe JS was hoping his correspondent would not read any further)
AOF 2 – Where did that come from? Obviously not 1 Cor 15:22
AOF 3 – An ambiguous statement, are we saved by the atoning work of Christ OR by obediance to the laws and ordinances? It looks like JS tried to harmonize the two, though he’d have more success in getting Sarah and Hagar to live harmoniously under the same roof (Gal 4:21-31)
AOF 4 – A nice short list, that gets longer depending on where you are in your LDS career
AOF 5 – So, how on earth did JS get qualified?
AOF 6 – No. The problem is that the primitive church started out with an organic structure
AOF 7 – No problem at face value
AOF 8 – I have commented many times that LDS should just jettison this one; it causes them so much trouble.
AOF 9 – Except that LDS don’t believe all that God has revealed (see AOF 8).
AOF 10 – ROFLMAO – where in the Bible do we see one single reference to the Americas?
AOF 11 – Looks more like 19th Century Deism than anything you’d find in the Bible.
AOF 12 – No problem at face value, though the story of Joseph Smith is quite different
AOF 13 – No problem at face value, except that the LDS leadership didn’t put it into practice (e.g. John Taylor lying about polygamy)
In any case, didn’t JS declare all creeds to be an abomination? So, why have you got a creed?
And, given that your creed is a derivative of JS’ revelations, what’s the difference between it and the Nicene Creed, which is a derivative of the Biblical revelation?
Okay Martin, let me begin.
If you had read my statement more clearly, I was speaking about the 4th (fourth) article of faith to be specific. I realize there are articles of my faith that are based on scriptures that we deem to be doctrine, so I would never expect you to accept those outright. If you wish to make this a discussion on the articles of faith of my church, I believe there is a better venue to do so, if not findind a place to discuss each article individually. But as this specific thread is about whether the LDS view of faith and works being enough, I felt it necessary to follow along with what Janet had written.
Next, I can talk scriptures with you and propose me counter point, however I would ask that the simple gainsaying of Joseph Smith every other article serves no purpose but to preturb the situation, as it simply is a matter of whether or not one believes in Joseph Smith being a prophet of God, which I most certainly do, and it is quite obvious that you do not. Again, that is another discussion topic.
Then, I would like to see the exact quote you used that says that Joseph Smith declared that “all creeds to be an abomination.” I searched and found only this: “…all their creeds were an abomination in [the sight of God]…” (Joseph Smith History 1:19). This only talks about a specific group, namely those creeds that existed at the time of Joseph’s first vision. If you can share, I would gladly surrender the point.
So, as for the topic at hand, I see that you presented no specific rebuttle as to the 4th articles validiy, so I will wait any further questions you may have.
I will restate my questions to you. What is it that helps you determine your belief in Christ? I honestly want to know.
Thank you, and God bless.
jacob5,
Thanks for your response.
OK, for the time-being let’s restrict it to AOF 4, though it follows on from AOF 3. Here they are (for the convenience of our readers)
On the face of it, I don’t have much of a problem with this. I worry about the apparent reliance on the “works” of baptism and laying on of hands, particularly in the light of such statements as Eph 2:8-10.
I have just finished reading The Atonement, Its Meaning and Significance by Leon Morris (IVP 1983), and I am impressed by his conclusion;
So, faith is when I rely wholly on God. When I rely, even partially, on my achievements, I am placing my faith in myself, and denying God.
This might seem like an ethereal, existential point, so let’s bring it down to earth.
…ctd…