In August (2010) Jerry Johnston at Mormon Times wrote about the general negative impression Americans hold in regard to members of the LDS Church. He noted that Mormonism has always been misunderstood, regardless of the Church’s long-standing efforts to put fears about Mormons and Mormonism to rest. Citing Joseph Smith’s Articles of Faith provided to newspaper editor John Wentworth in 1842, Mr. Johnston wrote,
“…behind the lines of most of the Articles of Faith, I hear the subtle message, ‘Don’t fear us. We’re not threatening. We’re a lot like you.’… Despite Joseph’s efforts, of course, the dislike and distrust continued. They continue today.”
Mr. Johnston mused,
“I sometimes wonder what would happen if LDS leaders were to publish a new set of one-sentence declarations that begin with the words ‘We do not believe …’
“‘We do not believe in the practice of polygamy.’
“‘We do not believe in discrimination.’
“‘We do not believe we are above the law.'”
This got me thinking. Maybe a negative list like this isn’t a bad idea.
The three items on Mr. Johnston’s list represent some specific misperceptions that trouble the reputation of Mormonism today. A flat denial of these things, though, does not go very far in alleviating the distrust of non-Mormons. I think it would be more helpful to fill out these denials with a little additional information. My (factual) tongue-in-cheek suggestions are offered here:
“We do not believe in the practice of polygamy. We gave that up over 100 years ago. But until that time, we did not believe a man could achieve the fullness of salvation without multiple wives.”
“We do not believe in discrimination. We gave that up in 1978 when the ban pertaining to people of African decent was lifted and Blacks were allowed full church membership rights. But until that time, we did not believe a person of African decent would overcome that divine curse and receive the fullness of salvation until all non-Black people were already redeemed.”
“We do not believe we are above the law. We gave that up when we realized that we couldn’t win the battle against the U.S. government over polygamy. But until that time, we did not believe the laws of the land could constrain us from ‘living our religion’ (e.g., polygamy, blood atonement, etc.).”
In addition to Mr. Johnston’s points, there are several other items I’d really like to see on an LDS “We do not believe” list. For starters, how about:
- We do not believe in only one true God.
- We do not believe God has been God from all eternity.
- We do not believe Jesus is God, uncreated and eternally God.
- We do not believe in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
- We do not believe the Bible is trustworthy or a sufficient guide to lead people to God.
- We do not believe that Jesus’ sacrifice is able to cleanse people from every kind of sin.
- We do not believe that anyone is saved by the grace of God alone.
- We do not believe salvation can be had without accepting Joseph Smith.
- We do not believe God is “well pleased” with any church other than ours.
I can imagine some Latter-day Saints objecting to this list. And though I followed Mr. Johnston’s lead on this, I don’t claim to know what each individual Mormon believes. Yet, if Mormons object to any items on the list above, we would be required to add one more defining declaration:
- We do not believe the words of our latter-day prophets, seers and revelators.
Justin,
I have read what you have said. I think you are acting on some incorrect information. You seem to think that Mormons, JWs, and other cult members are "Christians" just because they use the name of Jesus Christ somewhere in their name or doctrinal statement. I think you fail to realize that they are NOT Christians at all. These religions are false and cannot be equated with Lutherans, Catholics, etc. The basic tenets of the denominations are the same. Jesus Christ is and always was God. He did not become a god and populate his planet, being the son of a god who was before him. It is a completely different doctrine, theology, and understanding of who God is. You are assuming the Bible to be inaccurate when you say that God never said to rebuke those who were leading others astray or outright lying. That is simply not true.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
I believe God is very clear in His word. He doesn't need any one of us to defend Him. We are, however, to be ready to give an answer for our hope.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
Shelli
My point was that your efforts would be much more effective convincing those who don’t know Christ at all, such as Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, etc. You could say my ‘mission’ is to open the eyes of fellow Christians to these truths. Many walk this earth having never heard of the name of our Lord, who have need of His gospel! Were we not all commanded to go into the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature? That you may be blessed in those efforts and bring many unto Christ, is my prayer, instead of seeking to undermine the faith of another who declares their belief in Christ, regardless of the comparative results of their and your personal and collective exegeses.
And Rick, I am not dodging questions, as all of yours have been answered in this and my previous post if you read it. I am glad you feel you are on the right path to Christ. However, the way you and some others talk about the LDS seems to carry an undercurrent of either anger, revulsion, hatred, etc. Not sure what but I sense it there. Hard to carry out an objective exegesis with emotions like that in the way. That’s the path to eisegesis, and logic and reason go out the window. Also, the same verses you quote could be said by anyone to defend their interpretation of Christianity, so their application is ineffective to bolster your case. See how even honest exegesis can lead to a different outcome? The reason I am not putting your position side by side with the LDS is because I am questioning your very approach. From what I see, the whole point of this website is to malign LDS people and their beliefs. I would say the same thing to an LDS if on their website, they did what you do. And for all you know, I do!! If you don’t agree with them, go your own way, but as my son would say ‘chill’ on the rebuking brother! And btw, I never claimed to be LDS, although I know several of them. You just made the assumption that since we were not in agreement, I must be. There are other Christians out in this world who do not hold the same views as you do. And that, my friend, is a result of my own efforts in exegesis. Of course, you can just claim that I did not apply it correctly, I am wrong, etc. etc. Golly, maybe that means I just can’t call myself a Christian either….but as I told f_melo, slippery slope here buddy! Perhaps reading the following article by Jim Garlow will bring some clarity, especially the latter part regarding theology. And keep in mind this is a pastor with some experience in exegesis and theology… http://onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?i…. Now I know it talks about Glenn Beck, but what better way to understand things from our Evangelical standpoint. He, being a Mormon, has totally accepted Christ as his savior and relies on the atonement. Even Dr. Garlow seems to lean towards accepting the fact that Glenn could be a Christian, although “not theologically in line with orthodox Christianity”. How refreshing! Someone who is able to move beyond the idea that they have all the answers, and admit that someone else can be a Christian, even if their theology is different.
Justin, Say what you want but I was Told by God to tell the Mormons they have and teach a false Gospel. Just because you do not agree with me does not mean I will simply walk away from what God told me to do. They do not have faith in the same Jesus that I do, they teach a different jesus and a different gospel, So I will declare the true gospel to them and show from their scripture what they teach, this way the uninformed can decide for themselves. Rick
Justin, One last thing, Have you read the BoM and their other teachings? Have you read and heard what their prophets teach? If so do you believe it lines up with what the Bible says? If you have read their 4 standard works and believe that they teach the same gospel then tell me. If you have read all of there teachings but do not believe it lines up with scripture, than explain how you can say they also teach Jesus and we need to simply come along side of them. if your wondering, Yes I have read all their 4 standard work, plus other book of theirs, I have gone to their church services and had many MM's come to my house, and I went to Utah for two weeks and toured the entire temple area and spoke with the Mormons their.
Rick,
And the according to the Mormons THEY were told by God to follow the path they do. They fervently believe they are doing what He wants them to do. So where does that leave us? Think about it…
Rick,
My hope was to help you see there were more sides to this than your narrow minded approach, but I can see that when challenged to rethink things, you fall back on subjective reasons for why you do it, and throw true logic out the window. With that mindset, you are as blind as you claim Mormons to be and until you choose to open your heart and mind, I will leave you to the judgement with which you choose to judge. May the Lord one day break through the barriers you place is my prayer! Regards-
Justin
Rick,
I am glad you have done your theological research. And yes my friend, so have I. I have even studied much of the history of their religion. Did you know there were many pastors, preachers etc. who stood by and condoned the violence done to their people? Rape, murder, theivery, etc. Yes Rick, that did happen. It is historical fact. Religious leaders of the mid to late 1800’s even promoted the awful deeds perpetrated on them IN THE NAME OF CHRIST. Oh yes my friend, Christians whose faiths were the forebears of today’s Evangelical Churches. Was that justified? Do you think the Lord smiled on what was in those men’s hearts? All because of theological differences. So what if Joseph Smith felt that the churches of his day were not in line with God’s teachings?!! Thats how Martin Luther felt! And Calvin, and Zwengili, and many others.
Does their theology line up with Evangelical Christianity? Of course not. However, it seems that you are either totally ignoring the main premise of my posts, or you are unwilling to rationally approach it. Instead, you keep returning to the “don’t you see what the Mormons do?” line of reasoning. If needed, reread my earlier post on historical Christianity, and then read the article by Dr. Garlow. Pay particular attention to the section on Theology, and ask yourself the questions he poses. If you come up with 100%, then you have missed not only his message, but are […] to realize you may have some error in your own thinking. YOU don’t get to decide who is a Christian and who is not. That is an individual choice based on the acceptance of the sacrificial atonement of Christ Jesus, opening you heart to His grace, and doing what he taught. In other words, CHRIST himself makes that decision. Let him take care of that please!
Ok, you call me narrow minded yet you dodge questions like mad. Again, Have you read the LDS scripture? If so then you claim such great knowledge on the bible, show me from scripture where are beliefs line up in light of this, God claims their are no Gods before Him or after Him. Mormons claim their were Gods before God and we will be Gods after we die.
God claims He always was God and always will be God. LDS claim God was once a man that became God. Show me how this lines up with the Bible, since you claim to be so skilled in the word.
If you have not read LDS scripture then how can you tell me I am wrong? LDS tell me I am wrong even though I have read their scripture. If you dodge my questions and do not answer them, then I will say right here and now, […] I dont believe for one minute you know God.
Rick,
No offense meant hear but as you claim I have 'dodged' your questions I will emphatically state that I have not. I clearly stated that my objective was not to make a comparison between Evangelical Christianity and LDS belief. If you did not understand that, I dont know how to make it any clearer. I am not here to tell you you are wrong, and someone else is right. I will again state, in very clear terms. MY POINT WAS TO HELP YOU REEXAMINE YOUR APPROACH.
You use the same circular arguments, pull out doctrine that is not in alignment with Evangelical Christianity, or even Orthodox Christianity for that matter. Dude, we know that already!! The LDS and Evangelical movements do not align, nor will they ever. I get that, as do pretty much anyone who studies religion.
The point, again, is that while those differences exist, and the divide may be wide in many areas, the truth remains that you cannot claim people who convert to Mormonism do not do their own exegesis. Simply throwing out a broad claim that they are 'duped' is like calling anyone who disagrees with you stupid. Wow…an incredible rebuttal to a logical argument that you have failed to discuss even one point of in patience or clarity.
The results of their (Mormons) exegesis, both rational and revealed, are different than yours. So what? The answer is to spend your life beating them over the head about it? And to claim that because I don't fall into lock step with you that I do not know God is yet another ridiculous claim, with no basis in fact. Seriously man, if you cant present a reasoned, rational approach to your arguments, then for me to bother with them is like beating my head against a wall. So I will leave what I hoped to be a friendly, reasoned discussion regarding how one reaches truth, and let you continue to cook in your stew of religious intolerance and hatred. Too bad you have ears and eyes, yet you refuse to see or hear. I can't say I didn't try, but neither can you now. There is my witness and you can do with it what you wish, for that is one of God's ultimate gifts, the ability to choose for oneself.
F-Melo and others, thanks for your opinions and comments. God bless-
Justin, It's great that you tell me about pastors who raped and lied, whats that got to do with mormons lying? I never denied those things happened. Yet I will say that according to scripture they were not saved and they were not true believers. How can I say that, well according to scripture, Not every one that says, LORD, LORD is a true believer. Then Scripture teaches that wolves will arise from with in to kill, they are wolves in sheeps clothing, They are people who claim to be believers yet are liars and what to kill us. Then scripture tells us, people who commit these wicked and evil deeds are not true believers.
Again, where in scripture can you show me that I must come along side a person that teaches a false gospel and a false Christ and call them a brother? I can show you from scripture where it COMMANDS ME not to do that. Since scripture teaches not to do that, how can you go against scripture and tell me I must do that?
Justin, here are some things for you to think about, but also I would like answers from you on these things.
You tell me I am judging the LDS and and that it is wrong for me to tell the LDS they are wrong. But yet it seems you can tell me I am wrong and your judging me, so how are you any different?
Now The Bible tells us in two places, God cannot lie, and it is impossible for God to lie. If these verses are true, and God says their are no other Gods before or after Him, and God was always God and the Mormons teach a different Gospel, then Paul said if anyone teaches another Gospel let them be accursed.
So if this is all true, then how can you honestly tell me to come along side of them and work with them to preach Christ when clearly we are teaching 2 different gospels and Paul says one is damnable.
Then the Bible says Confusion is of the devil, so would it be confusion and of the devil for me to come along side an LDS member and we teach two different gospels?
Justin, if you do not like how I do things then fine, Gods uses everyone in different ways. I recall Paul calling down blindness upon problem maker, Boy that would really upset the apple cart if I did that. I recall Paul saying, IF YOU DO NOT LOVE JESUS, Then your accursed, How well would that go over with you if I said like Paul said if you do not love Jesus than you are accursed.
Now if as the Bible says, Hell is real and hell is forever, then I am being more loving by showing them from the Bible where they are wrong, and I am using their scriptures to show people how they are wrong and misleading people. See its like this, Many on this site have called LDS out for not being totally honest in what they believe. Why is it wrong for me to want LDS to be 100 percent honest in what they claim to believe.
I remember a time when LDS would tell me Adam God was never taught, Then I went and bought the JoD and showed them, They denied it. I recall Bill Mc saying he owns an original BoM, and he has tried showing changes in it to LDS members, They refuse to look and see the changes. These things are signs of willing blindness, They refuse to look into the problems and only want to believe what they want to believe is true.
So go ahead tell me I am wrong for trying to show the LDS problems I see, I dont believe you have love in your heart for one minute, you accuse me of hatred towards the LDS, I have no hatred, I spent years reading what they wrote and taught, I try and show them from their scriptures and the Bible how statements LDS leaders have said about God do not line up with scripture. Read the Book Of Job, read the account by God where he rebukes Jobs friends for misrepresenting and tells Job to pray for them and make a sacrifice for them. God does not like it when we misrepresent Him.
Read Isaiah, 44:9-20 God talks about the people making gods out of wood and asking those gods to save them, God was not happy about that, the LDS have made false gods and attached the Jesus to their false God. God does not say, well you put the name Jesus on your false God and false scripture, so I must honor it as my own. So say what you want but I am not stopping sharing the real Christ with LDS and I am not stopping showing possible LDS converts the things LDS hide from them.
Rick and Rick, unless you are one and the same. I am getting dizzy here! The circular arguments are getting worse. I did not judge you, I said , per the Bible, you will be judged for in the same way you judge the LDS, so lets get that straight first. Second, you argument that , and I quote,
“God cannot lie, and it is impossible for God to lie. If these verses are true, and God says their are no other Gods before or after Him, and God was always God and the Mormons teach a different Gospel, then Paul said if anyone teaches another Gospel let them be accursed.
So if this is all true, then how can you honestly tell me to come along side of them and work with them to preach Christ when clearly we are teaching 2 different gospels and Paul says one is damnable. ”
Not one word in there that looks like it says LDS, or Mormon. Rather, your interpretation of bliblical scripture places them there as a ‘damnable’ gospel. If you go back to my earlier post, THAT IS SUBJECT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION. You continue to say theirs is a different gospel. Different compared to Evangelical Christianity yes, but not necessarily different to all Christianity per se. Only different to YOUR version of Christianity as a result of your exegesis being different. From your perspective, they have a ‘false god’. But again, I bet other creeds of Christianity would feel you are on the wrong path as well. Not all Christians believe in the triune God as laid out in the Nicene creed. Not all agree on lots of different things. In fact, most of them disagree on key points of biblical doctrine. All preach that ‘their way’ is the way back to God, yourselves included, as well as the LDS. If they all agreed, we would not be having this conversation. [sentence removed for violating blog policy] Can’t remember the article I read, but it was written by a couple of men OUTSIDE the LDS faith. More later, my daughter needs me! 🙂
Justin, one more thing, go back and read this entire topic again, what is is talking about? It's basically saying what I said, we want LDS to be truthful and honest in what they believe and teach, they clearly mislead people into believing this they really do not. How hard is that, why is it we cannot ask people to be honest. Trust me, a lot of us who talk with mormons would do a lot less of it if they were more honest in what they believe.
Sorry I had to cut that last one short without providing the text to back up what I had been saying. The article was published in the Trinity Journal back in 1998 (you guys have inspired me to do some great research and I have learned more about Mormons/Evangelicals than I ever knew before – thanks!). Anyway, it is titled “Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It? By Carl Mosser and Paul Owen. [sentence removed for violating blog policy] And another thing I ran across was the following, and I was wondering if you could clarify – a theologan by the name of Peterson said this
“To assert, as some evangelicals have declared directly to me, that they alone are Christians, and that they have arrived at their unique Christianity by virtue of their own reading of the Bible — implicitly dismissing the other claimants to Christianity as either preternaturally stupid or irrationally evil or some mixture of the two — seems to me both arrogant and, in view of the fact that the preponderant majority of world “Christians” hold to different opinions, quite unlikely to be true. Even to claim that evangelical Protestants alone are “biblical” or “orthodox” Christians, seems an improbable and smug declaration.”
So, as I said yesterday, most of the Christian world does not agree with you…Does that make Evangelical Christians the only true Christians?
And I could say to you, that 'honesty' is only dependent of whether or not you believe their theology to be true or not. I am sure they don't go around boldly 'lying' to people and have deceit in their hearts. You just call it lying because they claim a theology different than your own. I have asked many mormons some 'hard' questions about temples, baptism, garments, etc., and none of them have lied to me. My own post-conversational fact checking bears that out. They do boldly declare their theology to be true. much like yourselves, and do not shy away from telling me their beliefs (no trinity, god a perfected body of flesh, etc etc.) If I don't agree, thats cool, they have not turned angry because of it. So again, its a matter or perspective when it comes to the lying you claim, at least in my own experience.
Justin, I was having issues with posting so I wrote the Mods about it, I was told to register and the issues would go away, I am using the name Rick the Hammer because it would not let me use Rick B. It said that name was taken and a former poster nick named me the hammer.
Any way you keep going back and saying It is my interpretation versus the LDS interpretation, I'm sorry to break the news to you but that is simply not the case. This is the deal, It is what does God say versus what man says.
Going back to the God said, He is the only God, He was always God and their were no Gods before Him or after Him. God said that not me, Know the way I interpret that is just like God said. He is the only one and their are no other gods.
Lds claim their are other gods and God was once a man. So tell me, How do you interpret what God said? If you agree that God said He is the Only one then where am I going wrong? If you fell I interpreted thoase verus wrong, then please explain how and support it with Scripture.
Now the issue of Paul teaching their are other Gospels, As of yet, here and now today, I have asked countless mormon what this other Gospel is that Paul speaks of, not one mormon has ever been able to answer that, Can you? Then add to that, I read what the LDS teach and what they say the real scripture is, The scripture they believe in and teach does not line up with the Scripture Paul taught, so yes I see another Gospel being taught even if in your words Paul is not saying Mormons by name. Also you admitted LDS have a different gospel, and boy it seems your making me your personal mission, and when I say, well the Mormons do the same thing so why dont you speak to them also, you toss out smoke bombs and defer the question by saying, Maybe I do, but on other sites. Saying maybe you do is not an honest answer it is a subtle dodge. Its fine that you make me your personal crusade I can handle it.
Justin, you keep telling me I am judging the LDS and I am wrong for that. Explain something to me?
The Bible tells us their will be deceivers in the last days looking to deceive us, and their will arise false prophets from among our own. The Bible tells us that satan comes in the form of an angel of light, and Acts 17:11 tells us to search the scriptures to know if these things are true.
The LDS tell us to pray for the truth and know if what they say is true. Thats not what scripture says, So tell me exactly how looking into what Scripture says, and looking at what LDS say and teach is not making a judgment? I'm judging what they say verses what God said. Jesus did say,
Then please explain since you seem to believe it is simply me not correctly interpreting the word of God correctly how to do it, you like the LDS, You tell me I am going about things the wrong way, but not explaining the correct way. Then like I said you never answered my question, why is it not ok for me to what honest answers from the LDS? Why am I wrong for asking truth from these guys, As I said before, many on this site will state, LDS are not honest with new converts, they will lead them to believe they the LDS believe one thing, but once the person converts, the truth is reveled. Their are EX-LDS who are posting here that have said as much.
Rick,
Thanks for the clarification. That happened to me and I had to register as well. As far as Paul and the ‘other gospel’ you speak of, thats easy to answer. He said if even an angel from heaven taught ‘any other gospel than that we have preached unto you, let him be accursed’. So, if anyone teaches any gospel other than the Gospel of Christ to them, its a no go. I totally get that. So hang on to that thought Rick, and I will come back to that.
Your premise that it is God’s word vs. the LDS word, and again, I will refer you back to your logical fallacy that the word as YOU know it IS God’s word. The fallacy (or rather fallacies) that apply here are assumption and presumption. You do not have an argument because your premises are rooted in logical fallacies. If I compare the LDS view to the Evangelical view, I can see how each side can interpret scripture to support their view. If you would like me to lay out both sides, I would be happy to, but that comparison would have to be made taking into account each sides beliefs, as that would ‘color’ if you would the meaning, or interpretation of whatever verse you want me to look at.
That leads me all the way back to what I asked you to hang on to. IF the gospel taught was not what Christ, Paul and others taught (as sanctioned by Christ and God), then it was to be shunned. You have yet to give me a rational, reasonable, and logical argument that the Gospel, as seen by Evangelical Christians IS that gospel. Thats all I am saying brother!
If you intend to defend your faith, read the article I mentioned about ‘losing the battle’. You have to do it with more than circular arguments, old already disproved allegations, ad hominem attacks on Joseph Smith, inflammatory stories on polygamy etc etc. [sentence removed for violating blog policy] That stuff has been dismissed by most serious biblical scholars for a long time now. So my crusade is more of one to get you to realize that you can’t win on the course you are going! Get involved in serious, early christian research, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.etc. Few Evangelicals even take the time to really get into that stuff, and by ignoring it, are falling behind in their abilities to offer a sound, rational basis for their exegesis which leads to an eventual inability to defend it. Peace!
Justin,
You can tell me I have no clue but here is the deal. you still have yet to explain how to "correctly" Interpret the word of God. Like I said, God said He is God and their are no others and He was and is always been God, Yet the LDS claim He was a man that became God and their are Gods before Him. How can they be correct when God says something different? Dont send me to other people or books on what they said or think, what do you say, speak for yourself, You do not see me saying, Well Bill said this or jack said that, Fictional names to make a point. I speak for my self and do my own research.
Now a few examples of being deceitful or not very honest are, 4,000 Changes to the BoM and no mention ever in any of the book of mormon, many changes made between years, never any mention made. Many changes in the books, History of the Church or many other books by LDS. If you dont think massive doctrinal changes are made, and zero footnotes noting changes in Doctrine is not deceitful than fine, but to me that is.
Another thing, so keep telling me I make no sense and keep going in circles, well I think you know better than that and simple feel saying that enough will make it true. Why is it if I make no sense at all and have no clue about what I say, then no Christian has ever said that but you?
I was posting here on this site before the Blog started, it was only a section of questions, then this blog started and I have been here for years, not once did Bill Mc, or Sharon or Aaron or any Christian ever write me and say, Rick, you are clueless, you giving us a bad name with your illogical thoughts. It would be really loving for them to correct me if I was that bad. And as a matter of fact, I did tell Bill about things I said or did when witnessing to LDS, and he felt I was so out of line he correct me.
Then I will leave it to the Mod to decide if they want to verify this or not, since I will not name them. But I have a blog on mormonism, and as a result of that blog, I have had 4 different people start 4 different blogs only about me, they were slandering me and attacking me and it was all over mormonism. Now why would some one or 4 different people attack me in such a way if I were that stupid and clueless? I never saw this happen to anyone else here.
Then their was a Mormon from arizona who started a blog called "The Mormon hater show." This guy attacked me on a regular basis on his blog saying things so vulgar it involved me wanting to have gay sex. Plus he attacked Bill and Aaron. If I am that stupid why would he attack me like that. All in all 5 different blogs all about me and attacking me, for what? Maybe hitting the nail on the head, People figure if they attack me and try and push me around I will shut up and go away. Not me, I am not easily moved. I just as of today got an email by someone attacking me over this stuff. So I guess you can keep telling me I am clueless and making no sense, at least One Mod on this board witnessed all of the Blogs about me and saw some pretty hateful things written about me on my blog and can testify to the truthfulness of this. You can go to my mormon blog and read for yourself, since I never delete anything, unless it is an Attack on my family.
Justin, The article by Mosser and Owen has been mis-used by some Mormons ever since it
was published. As for Mr. Peterson, I think we've all met "some evangelicals" who espouse
such rhetoric.That proves nothing. I would like to call your attention to a church which is quite
clear in it's claim of being the only true Christian church on the earth today, and while it does'nt
usually like to use the term, "evangelical" to refer to itself, it could fall under that category.
Any guesses to which church ? I'm sure you know which one I'm refering to. So that then
would ask the question of you , namely, have you gone on any LDS websites and voiced
your same criticisms of them ? Until you do, I might tend to think you're a Mormon in disguise
here ( or an ex-Mormon turned agnostic ) .
cont.
Now obviously I could come up short in my evaluation of you personally . Could you be
coming up short in a impartial evaluation of the claims of Mormonism ?
Do you see my point ? Thanks.
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Justin, My last reply goes backwards due to the way it posted, It said it was to long.
Anyway, I agree you might be Mormon or exMormon. Anyway, here is another thought. LDS claim to be Christian, you get on my case for saying they are not, Well what about LDS claiming RLDS and FLDS are not mormon, LDS are adiment thay they are not Mormon. Yet LDS, FLDS and RLDS all believe in the BoM, JS, BY, and Claim to believe in the Bible and Jesus. Yet LDS refuse to say RLDS, and FLDS are Mormon. Nobody says anything to the LDS about that, but they sure jump on us/me for claiming LDS are not Christian, Care to answer that?
Rick,
I am sorry you feel my mission is to attack you. It is not. You and f_melo were the only two to respond to some of my questions/comments. So naturally, I continued the thread that we were on. As far as posting on other stories/threads, I already said I did not come to this site to take potshots at the LDS church. I made a few comments about how you are going about your crusade to convince Mormons that they are not Christian, and are following a false gospel. That led to comments back and forth between us. I never said Mormons have not lied to you or anyone else. Just that my experiences with them have been positive. I would also say that any LDS person who dedicated a site to bashing you and attacking your family was not following the doctrine of their church, just as any other Christian who does that is not either.
So there we have it. You believe what you do, I feel differently, and the way I see it, the logic and reason behind my arguments was solid based on the laws of reason, logic, and common sense, independent of any theological interpretation. So, I will carry on my merry way, and will let you do the same.
One other thing Rick,
If your questions were never to learn about the Mormons, but rather to tear them down, why in the heck would they want to come back? One would think that the MM who come a'knockin get that vibe. It is very clear to me and to probably anyone who reads your stuff here that you have no intention of becoming one of them, nor to learn from them or see things from their perspective, so why should they even pay you any mind? Now as far as not getting back to you, I agree, that was not cool. If you don't know something, either say so, or get back to them if you promise to. However, if they know that coming back to you means more 'biblical battle', how is the Holy Spirit going to manifest in that setting? Contention is of the devil, you said, and if your intention is to contend, rather than put away your pre-conceptions and listen, again, why would they pay attention to you, or even want to come back? Just askin man..
Rick,
with all due respect, I did not call you clueless. I said a few basic things. 1. your arguments, anchored by your view of biblical meaning, only fly if they are based on said meaning. 2. your viewpoint that only you and your cohorts exegesis is the correct one is an invalid premise, as I have proven. 3. If you really want to argue effectively, you need to back it up with more than the reasons you have stated. Logical fallacies are not my invention. 4. Due to the fact that the vast majority of the Christian world have different interpretations of the Bible is evidence that rational exegesis is not the only way with which you can fully understand the Bible, as it is solely based on human intelligence. Revealed exegesis is even more subjective. In other words, EVERYONE out there does not agree on what the Bible says, and one group cannot lay claim of the full understanding, to the exclusion of the rest. Your words imply the 'full understanding' as you continue to judge another faith based on said understanding. So yeah, simply saying it doesn't make it true, I logically prove it. I don't slander you, call you nasty names, or threaten your family do I? I have tried to remain quite civil throughout our little thread (remember, you were the one who claimed I did not know anything about the Bible, or God for that matter, because I disagreed with you?). So yeah Rick, I have witnessed to you that I believe in Christ Jesus, he is my Saviour, and his atonement, from his mock trials, scourging, bleeding in Gethsemane to his crucifixion at Golgotha ransomed me, and his resurrection overcame death for all of God's children. He has commanded us to love God and our neighbor, and I have done this out of love. You say you do so to, but sarcastic and snide comments to one another (yes I have read other threads) about Mormons tell a different story. You presume to stand above them and teach them God's law, as if you have it all figured out. The Pharisees and Sadducees thought the same thing. Lord help you my friend, when we are judged for what is in our hearts at that last day. I will stop posting here and bothering you all because it is very clear that no amount of reasoning will make a dent in the wall. May the love of Christ Jesus open your eyes and help you see that you have Christian brothers all around you, be they Mormons, Catholics, Adventists, etc. Ciao!
If it is not based upon Gods word and what He said, then the logic amounts to nothing. Atheists claim to have logic that proves God cannot exist, so whats that mean? God does not exist. Even if you feel you were trying to reason with logic, you still kept it one sided, you ignore the fact that LDS teach something as Fact and refuse to comment on that.