In August (2010) Jerry Johnston at Mormon Times wrote about the general negative impression Americans hold in regard to members of the LDS Church. He noted that Mormonism has always been misunderstood, regardless of the Church’s long-standing efforts to put fears about Mormons and Mormonism to rest. Citing Joseph Smith’s Articles of Faith provided to newspaper editor John Wentworth in 1842, Mr. Johnston wrote,
“…behind the lines of most of the Articles of Faith, I hear the subtle message, ‘Don’t fear us. We’re not threatening. We’re a lot like you.’… Despite Joseph’s efforts, of course, the dislike and distrust continued. They continue today.”
Mr. Johnston mused,
“I sometimes wonder what would happen if LDS leaders were to publish a new set of one-sentence declarations that begin with the words ‘We do not believe …’
“‘We do not believe in the practice of polygamy.’
“‘We do not believe in discrimination.’
“‘We do not believe we are above the law.'”
This got me thinking. Maybe a negative list like this isn’t a bad idea.
The three items on Mr. Johnston’s list represent some specific misperceptions that trouble the reputation of Mormonism today. A flat denial of these things, though, does not go very far in alleviating the distrust of non-Mormons. I think it would be more helpful to fill out these denials with a little additional information. My (factual) tongue-in-cheek suggestions are offered here:
“We do not believe in the practice of polygamy. We gave that up over 100 years ago. But until that time, we did not believe a man could achieve the fullness of salvation without multiple wives.”
“We do not believe in discrimination. We gave that up in 1978 when the ban pertaining to people of African decent was lifted and Blacks were allowed full church membership rights. But until that time, we did not believe a person of African decent would overcome that divine curse and receive the fullness of salvation until all non-Black people were already redeemed.”
“We do not believe we are above the law. We gave that up when we realized that we couldn’t win the battle against the U.S. government over polygamy. But until that time, we did not believe the laws of the land could constrain us from ‘living our religion’ (e.g., polygamy, blood atonement, etc.).”
In addition to Mr. Johnston’s points, there are several other items I’d really like to see on an LDS “We do not believe” list. For starters, how about:
- We do not believe in only one true God.
- We do not believe God has been God from all eternity.
- We do not believe Jesus is God, uncreated and eternally God.
- We do not believe in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
- We do not believe the Bible is trustworthy or a sufficient guide to lead people to God.
- We do not believe that Jesus’ sacrifice is able to cleanse people from every kind of sin.
- We do not believe that anyone is saved by the grace of God alone.
- We do not believe salvation can be had without accepting Joseph Smith.
- We do not believe God is “well pleased” with any church other than ours.
I can imagine some Latter-day Saints objecting to this list. And though I followed Mr. Johnston’s lead on this, I don’t claim to know what each individual Mormon believes. Yet, if Mormons object to any items on the list above, we would be required to add one more defining declaration:
- We do not believe the words of our latter-day prophets, seers and revelators.
Along with that it would be nice if they also published a dictionary of Mormon terms(i think there´s a non-official one somewhere), so that the general public will know, for example, when they speak about salvation they are not referring to the same thing as the Christian is.
"We do not believe in the practice of polygamy. We gave that up over 100 years ago. But until that time, we did not believe a man could achieve the fullness of salvation without multiple wives."
Wait… They do believe in the practice of polygamy … They might not be practicing at the moment because of the laws of the land, but they still believe in it, and they expect the practice to be re-established during the millennial reign of Christ, so that statement is not correct at all.
It should be "We believe in the practice of polygamy as stated in D&C 132, and we won´t practice it if the laws of the land won´t allow it, we will neither enforce it upon those not of our faith, but one day we expect the restoration of all things and when that day comes we will gladly obey the laws of our lord which consist of the law of polygamy, the law of consecration, the law of blood atonement and anything else the lord reveals through his chosen prophets and apostles"…
I would add one more "do not believe", – I do not believe that prophecies must come true for our prophets to be considered true. When their prophecies fail, they were speaking as mere man.
"We do not believe the words of our latter-day prophets, seers and revelators."
Something the mormons seem to constantly ignore is the fact that every man, no matter if apostles or prophets, are also sinners.
They seem to completely ignore the fact that in the Bible there were prophets(and an apostle) who were corrupted, and man of God such as Solomon who willfully disobeyed the commandments of God despite all God had done for him. For some reason mormons think that today those men are above good and evil, and it never crosses their mind they shouldn´t trust them as blindly as they do, because they can be corrupted. Any man in position of power can be corrupted by it, no matter who they are.
They need to apply Acts 17:11 in their lives:
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
That´s something i´ve never seen any mormon doing, they never question their top leaders, they never verify what they say, and they wonder why a lot of people classify mormonism as a cult…
Part 1
If LDS want the public at large to me more open and trusting of them, instead of giving us a list of what they believe or do not believe, how about they be more open and honest with us. Example, If LDS come knocking on my door, how about they are open to debate and talking about the hard things, Not tell me I cannot understand or I must have milk before meat. If they cannot answer my questions, honestly tell me so, dont treat me like I'm stupid and imply I cannot understand until I go to church for a year with them. If they say I will get back to you, then do so, do lie to me or leave me to believe you lied to me by saying I will get back to you then I never hear from you again. I know in some cases the MM did not lie, his or her upper lever people moved them on. But send someone back to talk with me. Otherwise it can seem as if they lied.
Part 2
It's these little things they do that cause such mis-trust. Also things like this dont help, Many here on this board have meet mormons that say, I'm believe what you believe, no you do not, our believe are different. Be clear and open about what you beleieve, dont make me deinfe the meanings to get you to admit it that way. They need to be more open and honest. Thats my biggest gripe with the LDS church.
An official list of what Mormonism doesn’t believe? It’s a great idea, and it will never happen.
A year or two ago, I was able to go out to the official LDS website and dig up their doctrine. I went right to the glossary entry for “gospel”, and found that the “fulness” of the gospel that Mormonism touts consists of all the COMMANDMENTS, COVENANTS, ORDINANCES, and PRINCIPLES created by the LDS church. Knowing that, I was able to snoop around their official site, and find many of these necessary ingredients to obtaining the celestial kingdom. I put together a write up – showing just exactly what it takes to be perfect enough for Mormon heaven.
And guess what?
The church totally redid the site, so that now you can find no such thing. Now, their whole site seems to consist of Mormon members testimonies.
IF THE CHURCH WERE TRUE – at least in my mind, they’d be shouting their truths off the rooftops, trying to save one and all. Instead, they continue to hide their doctrine under more and more layers of nothing.
I mean … can you imagine if they actually said what they really believed? They’d have members all over the place going “seriously? sheesh! I’m not sure if I can stand that”
Seein it happen, with the ones who do the research…
We do not believe in discrimination – well, except against women, who are inferior to teenage boys when it comes to holding "priesthood" or any real church authority.
Some other things that the LDS church could do to help themselves out would be things like, If you make changes to a book, note the fact that you made changes, not act like it never happened until someone finds out and calls you on it.
Tell us the Bible is wrong and needs to be corrected, but then not tell us what is wrong. LDS, I know their are problems with the Bible and some verses are wrong.
Christian: What verses?
LDS: Not exactly sure, I just know some are wrong.
things like that are not helping their image.
"I mean … can you imagine if they actually said what they really believed? They'd have members all over the place going "seriously? sheesh! I'm not sure if I can stand that"
Great post!
If i had learned about the "crazy hatter" treasure hunting Joseph, and specially about the doctrine of blood atonement i would haver never gotten baptized, i would have stayed away as far as possible from anything mormon.
You´re absolutely right. Worst of all is how they redefine words, to make the church sound unique and impressive – for instance, they call the mormon church a restoration of the original church – but many have noted that a restoration actually restores something to the way it was before, and doesn´t add anything to it because if it adds, it´s no longer a restoration, right? The church uses only the same names for functions as they are found in the Bible but the actual application has nothing to do with the New Testament church at all.
"Tell us the Bible is wrong and needs to be corrected, but then not tell us what is wrong."
That´s what the lds are best at – parroting what their leaders say without thinking about it first. That´s why they use the exact same lesson manuals every single year for their sunday school, seminary and institute classes.
Oh, and i have yet to hear a mormon explain why they don´t use a Bible with Joseph´s inspired translation replacing the so-called wrongly translated passages…
The problem is that the average mormon doesn't understand that these doctrines didn't go away, they just stopped being practiced. They of course really believe that their church doesn't discriminate (at least against African Americans, they of course still unabashedly discriminate against women), doesn't believe in polygamy, etc. So when somebody brings this stuff up, they think it's a lie. But in reality this stuff is still on the books as being a commandment from God – they still believe that God *used to* say it was okay to discriminate and enslave women into polygamy. And of course Christians have a problem with this – it's blasphemy.
F melo asked,
The answer I have gotten about this is, The LDS bible has those verse in it, as for the JST they do not use the entire thing or pass it out because the RLDS owns the rights to it and not them.
So I asked, Since when can anyone claim Rights to the Word of God. Or why is it according to the D and C God commanded JS and Sidney Rigdon to "Correct" The verses, So if God said do it, then how can you do it then God allowed it to fall into a corrupt apostate Church, since the RLDS according to them is not of God.
Well, the church is wealthy enough to buy those rights, i don´t think they would have any problem at all, considering the RLDS already dumped the Book of Mormon…
Are there any living descendants of Joseph who would hold on to the rights of the Inspired Version?
weird…
I "suspect" the real reason is what Walter Martin pointed out in a lecture where he briefly said they didn´t have any manuscript evidence to support those "corrections". The JW´s at least tried to mess up the hebrew(if i remember right) to justify their few changes to the Bible…
The LDS are not encouraged to study their Bibles anyway, except out of LDS manuals, which steer clear of anything in the Bible that they cannot explain (goes contrary to Mormonism). So… having the RLDS book, or the footnotes and JST section… one way or the other is the same as none at all. I was there… we didn't ever just study the books. WE STUDIED THE STUDY MANUALS, which made reference to certain scriptures, being careful of course to give a pre-bias (brainwash) toward the verse.
And other than those scripture verses, we were completely clueless.
That's why imo it's a good idea to challenge a Mormon to seriously read the Bible without the manual, just READ IT. If a Mormon will do that and just listen to what the Bible is saying, it won't take long until they know, at least subconsciously, that the Bible and the Church cannot exist peacefully together…
Aaron wrote
Yup, sums it up for me.
I mean, if they were trueprophets, seers and revelators, why not insist that we listen to them?
Martin, that's Sharon's post. My name just comes up from the Facebook thingy.
A great list Sharon and right on the button. But if we stopped to talk about all the things Mormons don't want to talk about we would be here until the crack of doom. I do like your last point about not believing apsotles and prophets. I don't think Mormons realise how confused hey sound when they push a message of apostles and prophets in one breath and in the next declare of course they may be wrong because they are only men.
I agree with Mike. That last point IS definitely my favorite, and probably the most correct.
I do not understand all of you. You all belong to your separate church's with their doctrine and their own ideas, their own take of what the bible says. You spend hours upon hours looking for faults in one organization. These hours could be better spent studying and learning the teachings of what you believe, and strengthening your faith in Christ that way. Not that I am supporting the Mormon views, I have never seen in the bible anywhere where Christ has said "Look down on your fellow-man and tell him he is horrible and terrible and don't learn of me" when you find that verse let me know and I will leave you be.
Matt, Have you read the Bible? If so did you skip the verses where Jesus told the religious leaders of His day that they were in Error of scripture? Should we not also tell people they are in error of scripture?
Did you mis the part about teaching a false gospel and if you do you are accursed? If they are teaching a false Gospel and are accursed, then dont you think we should tell them they are accursed and make some effort to see them come to the truth so they are no longer going astray?
Did you mis the verse that says turn a sinner from the error of his ways so he may live? I could go on with verse, but will start with these. Waiting for your responce.
I listen to this "Christ would never say bad things about other religions" so many times, it´s insane…
here you go, a verse for you:
Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."
See, Christ called the religious leaders of the time vipers!!!!
The people on this blog are being very nice, if you compare what they say with what Christ, Paul, and the church fathers said about those who teach another gospel.
"You spend hours upon hours looking for faults in one organization."
Tell them to stop lying about what they actually believe and be straightforward, tell them to tell the members and non-members the real church history, tell them to stop calling themselves christians just like they believe like everyone else, and there will be no reason for anyone to be "wasting" any more time on it.
That simple.
Matt,
Just curious, but if you ran into a man who claimed to be a prophet and he told you that
God considered all other churches as an abomination, would that be looking down on
your fellow man also ?
ww
Hello Mike Tea, Glad to see you stopped by for a visit.
Anyway, Matt, How come you feel we are wasting our time finding fault in the LDS church. They found fault with us and tell people we are wrong, How come you only spoke to us believers and not to the LDS? Makes one wonder.
Aha!
So, you spotted my deliberate mistake, did you…
…anyway, a bit of revisionism is surely 'faith promoting', isn't it?
(seriously, oops, soz, my error)
(http://blog.mrm.org/2010/01/the-official-fulness-of-the-gospel/) __this link leads to nowhere!
Thanks for the heads up. It's fixed now. The correct URL is:
http://blog.mrm.org/2010/01/the-official-fulness-…
Have Mormons like Mr.Johnson ever thought long enough on why he feels there is " …the general
negative impression…." that non-LDS have with him and his religion ? This negative impression
has been around for so many years despite the huge effort by Mormon leaders working with PR
specialists to create a favorable picture of Mormons to the general public. Could it be that
Mormon leaders ,especially of recent years, habit of denying some of their rather unique doctrines
to non-Mormons play a key part in this ? Also, does Mr. Johnson ever wonder why his leaders still
refuse open access to all that is in their historical archives ? Does he ever wonder what's hidden
away in the First Presidency's vault ? It seems apparent that he does'nt think these things thru,
yet the non-Mormon general public apparently does and it bothers them .
ww
Martin… nice 🙂
Ahh…but you fail to understand that Christ was rebuking the Pharisees and the Saducees for misunderstanding the purpose of the Mosaic law, as well as corrupting the true worship of Jehovah by supplanting that with pointless rituals and rules which caused them to be like 'whited sepulchers". They were incensed that he dared to teach THEM, who knew so much about the gospel and the word of God as they knew it line for line. How curious that you profess the same, yet spend so much time trying to convince Mormons that they have the incorrect interpretation. Kind of like they treated Jesus when his teachings did not line up with what they knew to be true. Yet you then try to turn it back on someone who questions you to make Mormons look bad. Who are you going after once you tire of beating on them? Should Lutherans or Episcopalians or others start to worry? I sense the pot spending lots of time here calling the kettle black. May I suggest you practice your version of Christianity (which is probably not perfectly in harmony with Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, etc..) and let others to the same. You would at least then appear to be more like a follower of Christ then you currently do. Spot on Matt..
You can make a game out of this. Such as: We don't believe in slavery-answer Southern baptist church. We don't believe in forcing our beliefs on other- Catholic church and the inquesition. If you can think of more I think it would be a neat game.
Justin, I suspect you do not know God or the BIble for that matter. The Bible and God teach us that we are commanded to rebuke the deceivers and were not to simply let people lie and device us and turn a blind eye to these people. I think if were a bother to you, maybe you should stop reading what we say.
Justin, Read this:
Ok, did you read those verses?
Now if I believe the LDS are wrong and in error and I am trying to save their soul from death then where and how am I going wrong?
now read this
I love it how some of you just assume since I don't necessarily agree with you that I must be ignorant of Holy Scripture. The very scripture you quote to me would only be applicable IF and only IF you were the holder of the truth. What I question is whether or not that is true. My argument with you and pretty much all others who say their 'mission' is to help Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, etc.. see the truth makes the assumption that you are the ones that have it. What hubris!! How many people out there don't even know who Christ is, have never heard his name, nor read and felt of his Love? All the religious bickering, nitpicking, etc. and the time and money spent on it is such a waste of time when so many others would benefit from knowing who He, Christ Jesus, is. instead of persecuting people who know His name, but interpret things differently that you do.
I know you will them argue that they don't know him because the worship him falsely. Again, that is according to YOUR interpretation of scripture. As one popular songwriter said" who died and made you king of anything?"
I don't mean to offend here, just simply point out that who is 'right' depends on where you are standing.
Except your version of Christianity isn´t Christianity at all.
That scripture makes clear that Christ didn´t just seat back and let them practice their version of the mosaic law.
"Who are you going after once you tire of beating on them? Should Lutherans or Episcopalians or others start to worry?"
No one. I will only worry about preaching the gospel to those who haven´t heard it yet. Actually i guess i could start beating new age teachings for sure…
Are you comparing yourselves with Lutherans? Please, tell me that´s a joke…
"You would at least then appear to be more like a follower of Christ then you currently do. "
Are you saying that i should let the wolves tear down the sheep without doing anything about it? Is that what Christianity is to you?
If that´s the case call all your missionaries home, there´s no use for them.
f-melo, I think Justin and Matt have convienently forget to mention some of the things that
Mormon prophets and apostles have said about non-LDS.
ww
So Justin, Please answer this question then. Why do you come here and "rebuke" Us Christians for trying to share the Gospel with the LDS, You tell us were wrong for doing what we do, yet I do not see you saying anything to the LDS. Why is that? The LDS told us Christians we were wrong first and we have a false gospel and we need to hear the truth.
I have see people like you hundreds of time telling me what I do is wrong, yet you remain silent when it comes to the LDS. Then You also seem to struggle with explaining why Jesus and even His disciples said people were wrong, had a false gospel or even said REBUKE THESE PEOPLE. Rick
Justin,
Mormons don't have the wrong interpretation of the Bible. That's an incorrect assumption. Mormons are following a guy (Joseph Smith) who, before he ever proclaimed a "Jesus" religion, reinvented Jesus, God, the nature of man… the whole ball of wax.
The Bible, in Mormonism, is the ticket to laying a claim on Christianity ("yes, we're a Christian religion"). The fact of the matter is that Mormons don't believe the Bible. They certainly don't search it out to learn what it says. Rather, they take their presuppositions of god-once-a-man, man-potential-to-become-gods, Jesus-just-the-eldest-brother, and what not, and FORCE THEM IN to the BIblical text.
A "misinterpretation" of the Bible is a whole different animal than what the Mormons have going on.
Justin,
I am wondering, you told us our interpretation of the Bible is wrong. Can you share who has the correct one? And exactly how do you prove they/you have the right one? Just curious, because My thinking is, If God is who He says He is, and hell is real as He says it is, then their must be a way to know Him and know we are saved and follow the truth.
I would think that He would find a way to show us we are really following Him and not a lie, since He claims we are ACCOUNTABLE to Him for what we believe, and if we believe lies and allow ourselves to follow after follow false prophets we will be held accountable for that.
Rick,
You pose some very interesting questions, and accusations which I will attempt to answer and/or clarify. First, you assumed I believed your interpretation of the Bible was wrong and asked me to share who has the correct one. Well my friend, that is the million dollar question! If everyone knew the answer, most, if not all of the religious infighting in the Christian world would cease to exist. Now I may be all wet here, but I have studied religion and scripture pretty extensively. From what I have gleaned, the Holy Spirit will guide one to the truth.
1 Cor 12:3 So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Also Luke 11:9-13
11:9 “So26 I tell you: Ask,27 and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door28 will be opened for you. 11:10 For everyone who asks29 receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, the door30 will be opened. 11:11 What father among you, if your31 son asks for32 a fish, will give him a snake33 instead of a fish? 11:12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?34 11:13 If you then, although you are35 evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit36 to those who ask him!”
Now, that begs the question, what if two different people feel guided by the Spirit to two different conclusions. Obviously, you would assume that one of them was deceived. Of course, the problem herein is which one? You stated that “ I would think that He would find a way to show us we are really following Him and not a lie, since He claims we are ACCOUNTABLE to Him for what we believe, and if we believe lies and allow ourselves to follow after follow false prophets we will be held accountable for that.”
Well, that is true! However, he will not hold you accountable for another person’s choice to follow falsehoods. You are accountable to Him for what YOU do. You will answer for the choices you have made, not someone else’s.
What I have tried to communicate is that you have made a mission of ‘rebuking’ Mormons on the assumption that you already have the truth. Not once have I said that the LDS were right, simply that using religion, especially the gospel of Christ to wage ‘spiritual warfare’ on another church was out of line. My job is not to judge, but rather to follow the example of Christ in all that I say and do. As Matthew said “7:1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.1 7:2 For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive.2”
You also assume that I have no clue as to the interactions between Jesus and those whom he rebuked. I understand very clearly what Christ and his disciples were doing when they rebuked the Jewish leaders of his time who time and again came to him in order to make a fool of him, and ended up walking away the fools. Their efforts were never to understand Christ, nor his teachings. Rather, like the vipers that he called them, tried to lay verbal traps using the law of Moses to refute his claims to divinity. Each and every time he turned it around on them. Few times did he ever get ‘in their face’. The cleansing of the Temple was one of the times, and he did that to make a point of how they turned a Holy place into a place where lying, cheating, and merchandising of sacred things was done. I don’t struggle at all explaining that, nor do I misunderstand what was going on between Christ and the Pharisees/Sadducees who sought his death because they could not believe he was he promised Messiah. He was also a threat to the political stability and to the very power they held!
I am VERY aware of what He did, each and every day. That was to say, “If anyone wants to become my follower,83 he must deny84 himself, take up his cross daily,85 and follow me. (Luke 9:23). He did not march into the synagogues and declare them to be teaching lies. He did not stand outside them and tell those who were entering or leaving that they were following the wrong path. Neither did he circulate scrolls throughout the land declaring Judaism to be false. He simply taught the truth and invited those who believed to follow him. “He that hath ears, let him hear”. And they flocked to Him!
So the bottom line here Rick, in all kindness, was just to share my feelings with you and your group of friends. If you felt it was a rebuke, then maybe it was. Actions like the ones you take only fuel people to reject religion and Christianity altogether. In times like this, what we need is more unity of purpose, more love for our fellow man, and more effort to walk in the footsteps of Christ. Our nation is in crisis, and we need more voices declaring the gospel of Christ, and fewer voices pointing out the ‘mote’ in our brother’s eye, lest we miss the beam in our own.
Yours in Christ
Justin
Yes, they "conveniently" forget those when they are being exposed for who they really are…
Great point. Imagine if i took the Book of Mormon and did the same. If i went around saying that God had appeared to me in a vision, and told me that Joseph Smith only had the partial "truth" necessary for his time and this generation of mormons and that for now on God would reveal new truths.
What if one of those "truths" was that the BoM should be treated like the Bible, you know, and be used only to say that i´m mormon, while teaching a whole new God, interpreting the Jesus of the BoM my own way, etc…
It´s that easy to create a new religion based on my imagination, and there would be no written authority that i could not distort to fit into my worldview… and since mormons don´t treat the scriptures as authoritative as modern "revelation" they would be more than willing to replace their existing beliefs and accept the new "revelations" that will make them even more special and chosen than they were before.
I could even re-define what it means to be a mormon, and claim that those SLC mormons have just a corrupted sectarian interpretation of the BoM and are no longer inspired.
That would be a lot of fun, specially because they get all irritated when the media refers to the polygamists as mormons, or homosexuals call themselves mormons…
Oh, the irony – i´ll turn your words against you in a second:
"who died and made you king of anything?"
"How many people out there don't even know who Christ is, have never heard his name, nor read and felt of his Love?"
Oh, man, you mormons come here and think you can give us this "Christ loves us all" talk, thinking we don´t know your religion at all – that´s pitiful.
Is that how people are saved/exalted in your church???? Only by hearing the name of Christ and feeling His love?
Rick B has a point "Why do you come here and "rebuke" Us Christians for trying to share the Gospel with the LDS,"
You go out claiming you have the only truth, and that your prophet is the sole authority. That´s a professional level of hypocrisy, for goodness´sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have to work real hard to achieve such a twisted view of reality.
"All the religious bickering, nitpicking, etc. and the time and money spent on it is such a waste of time when so many others would benefit from knowing who He, Christ Jesus, is."
If i were teaching that Joseph Smith wasn´t a prophet, wouldn´t your missionaries go around refuting my teachings? If that isn´t the case then i will say it again – SEND YOUR MISSIONARIES HOME, THERE´S NO USE FOR THEM!!!!!!!!
(moderators feel free to delete this post if you feel i crossed the line, but this is even worse than Jim Olsen´s stuff)
"First, you assumed I believed your interpretation of the Bible was wrong"
He didn´t assume, you said it yourself when you put in question his capacity to understand scripture when you said:
"The very scripture you quote to me would only be applicable IF and only IF you were the holder of the truth."
And, if his interpretation is right, yours is wrong, there´s no escaping that, otherwise you would be in the same religion – it doesn´t take a genius to figure that one out.
Who holds the truth? God, of course – but mormons say that God couldn´t preserve his word through the Bible, so they have conveniently found another book that fills the supposed gaps in the Bible(you know, the ones that teach about Christ´s blood not covering all sins, but you having to shed your own, for example)… and you can only enjoy those "blessings" if you belong to that church and subject yourself to the teachings of Joseph Smith, a man who has been proven to be a false prophet over and over again… but see, for mormons truth is only truth if it complies with what they already believe, and to what they have felt in their hearts – as if subjective feelings are a reliable way of determining truth at all.
"Well my friend, that is the million dollar question! If everyone knew the answer, most, if not all of the religious infighting in the Christian world would cease to exist. Now I may be all wet here, but I have studied religion and scripture pretty extensively. From what I have gleaned, the Holy Spirit will guide one to the truth. "
Here again apparently you are able to interpret scripture correctly and the Holy Ghost has led you to where you are right now. In other words your´re right and Rick B is wrong. Plain and simple.
Besides, your own leaders can´t even figure out D&C without contention… it´s not like that, and that´s not what God intended. To cherry pick verses here and there to prove your point is a proof that your world view isn´t determined by the sole authority of the Bible. In fact, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon come before the Bible and either the Bible complies with it or it´s tossed away as being corrupted, incomplete, unreliable, etc.
Oh, and how do we know what the Bible teaches for sure? It´s something called exegesis – and God in His goodness made this available to everyone, not only to some "prophets" or popes…
"He did not march into the synagogues and declare them to be teaching lies. He did not stand outside them and tell those who were entering or leaving that they were following the wrong path. Neither did he circulate scrolls throughout the land declaring Judaism to be false. He simply taught the truth and invited those who believed to follow him."
Sorry, but if you read the New Testament you probably skipped Christ´s teachings on REPENTANCE.
Seriously, what is to declare repentance other than to tell people they are wrong and they have to change if they want to go to Heaven?
And if he just invited "those who believed to follow him", did those people actually had to change anything in their life styles to do so? Or it was a "come as you are" deal? You know – you can keep worshipping Diana, but come and follow me, it won´t matter?
Go to your Bible Dictionary and read the definition of repentance.
Mat 9:13 " But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. "
"In times like this, what we need is more unity of purpose, more love for our fellow man, and more effort to walk in the footsteps of Christ. Our nation is in crisis, and we need more voices declaring the gospel of Christ, and fewer voices pointing out the ‘mote’ in our brother’s eye, lest we miss the beam in our own. "
Are you related to Glenn Beck somehow? You sound a lot like him…
What Gospel are you inviting us to declare? The false one that teaches that Christ was the spirit-brother of Lucifer and that he, before being God was some star dust floating around the universe before His father and mother through some unknown process organized that "matter" into a spirit-body?
A gospel that requires people to accept Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as an inspired man of God?
Sorry, i am not preaching that at all, because that´s not the gospel, and it doesn´t matter how much you want to point to the "mote" in my eyes.
By the way, that´s a terrible way to interpret that passage – Christ wasn´t referring to doctrine, but to behavior, more specifically he was rebuking hypocrisy… it would be ridiculous for him to say, don´t rebuke people for false doctrine. If that was the case why did He even bother to come and teach us at all?
The beam in my eye is when i rebuke people for being dishonest while i´m a thief. It´s when i look down on people that are poor, and then go to church acting as if i was a good person, etc… See, nobody here is questioning your character, or saying they know it all, we are only exposing your doctrines that go contrary to the Bible, because the Bible is the final authority and not Joseph Smith.
Justin,
I appreciate your effort to remind everyone to be civil in dealing with others who we may have some
disagreements with . Thanks for the reminder. I'm concerned though that you may not be seeing
the 800lb gorilla in the room,so to speak. This would be the fact of what your leaders have said
about non-LDS or former LDS . According to your reasoning your prophets and apostles may
just have a beam in their eye as well. Do you understand this ? Will you seek to correct them also ?
I hope you can remember that this blog is open to anyone, as such there can be some strong
emotions exhibited towards " Mormonism". Those that direct this ministry have all of us who
participate to conduct our selves in accord with 1Pt.3:15. This is the goal. I would like to draw
your attention to the fact that since Jesus taught that in the latter days there would be prophets
arise who would deceive people.All of us need to thus identify who it is that is claiming to be
a prophet today, and then evaluate their teachings.
ww
Justin, Iread what you said twice and you never answered my question. Why is it I tell the mormons they are wrong and you get on my case telling me I am wrong, yet you do not say anything to the LDS about how they should leave us christians alone and stop telling us we are wrong. I find that when people keep it one sided like you do it's because they tend to believe the teachings of the group they are not speaking to.
LDS claim to be Christians yet teach a compleaty different gospel.
Justin said:
You said I assume to have the truth, well it's like this, I am not going to say, I think I could be wrong and maybe I am, I am gooing to boldly say Yes I have the truth and I know with 100 percent ceraainty I do because of scriptures like these.
The Bible alone claims over 3,000 times that it alone is the Word of God, I stand on the word of God to say I know I am correct. If you want to tell me what I do is wrong, then tell both sides for both sides tell each other they are wrong, If you only want to keep it one sided then explain why, do not dodge that question. Rick b
Justin said
Sorry but I will not as the Bible say, unfiy my self with a group that is teaching a false gospel and leading people to hell. They are not teaching of the true and Real Jesus, so not I cannot take your ill ridden advice and join hands with wolves in sheeps clothing. Show me in scripture where I am to do that. Remember Jesus said, Not every one that says LORD, LORD knows Him. You can know Him or you can merly Mention His name but not really Know Him.