Earlier this week the Charlotte Observer reported on a controversial decision made by a local Christian church: Christ Covenant Church declined an offer from a Mormon couple who wanted to volunteer as Scout leaders. They were refused because their Mormon faith is “not consistent with historical Christianity.” The pastor of Christian Education and Young Families at Christ Covenant explained,
“Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church. We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint.”
According to the Charlotte Observer,
“What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
“And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
“‘It was so offensive,'” said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. ‘I have a picture of Jesus in my living room.’
A look at Christ Covenant’s online Statement of Faith reveals that the pictures one hangs in one’s living room, and the name of the church to which one belongs, do not even merit honorable mention in its summary of “What We Believe.” In fact, of the nine doctrines listed in that Statement of Faith (addressing Scripture, the nature of God, the nature of man, the Being of Christ, the way of salvation, etc.), Mormonism disagrees with six (or perhaps even seven) of them. Even so, the Charlotte Observer reported,
“Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
“‘Yes, there are distinct differences,’ he said. ‘But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word.'”
Well, not in the senses of the word as understood by Christ Covenant Church. Nor, as the newspaper points out, as understood by “Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox churches” in general. Mr. Rowlan is surely mistaken when he says Mormons are Christians “in every sense of the word.” Perhaps in every sense of the word as he defines it, or as the LDS Church defines it, but not necessarily as others may understand and define Christianity. Even so, this argument in this context is a moot point. Christ Covenant Church clearly explained that those who are in positions of leadership in that church must be “on the same [doctrinal] page” as it is defined in the church’s Statement of Faith. Whatever label is attached (Christian, non-Christian, Mormon, etc.), whatever pictures may be prominently displayed in one’s home, are not the point; what one believes is what’s important.
According to the Charlotte Observer, Christ Covenant Church assured Mr. and Mrs. Stokes that their boys were welcome to join the church’s Scouting program, and Mr. and Mrs. Stokes were invited to volunteer as helpers in the program if they’d like, but “as practicing Mormons, they couldn’t be leaders.”
The Bible has plenty to say about the purity of faith and leadership within Christ’s church. For example, the Apostle Paul called for those of the church to be “of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind” (Philippians 2:2). He admonished, “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers” (2 Corinthians 6:14). “What fellowship has light with darkness?” he asked. “What agreement has the temple of God with idols?” Regarding the qualifications for Elders in the church, Paul said they “must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that [they] may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it” (Titus 1:9). Certainly any leader in the church should aspire to “rightly handling the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).
Because Mormonism does not rightly handle the word of truth, because it promotes the worship of an unbiblical god, because the doctrine it espouses does not conform to biblical teaching (as understood by “most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians”), a “practicing Mormon” (i.e., one who embraces the teachings and god of Mormonism), cannot be allowed to hold a position of leadership within Christ’s church. The members of Christ Covenant Church, in standing firm on this issue, demonstrate their commitment to obey and honor the one true God, the God they love. Would that all Christian churches would stand firm for God’s Truth.
It's about time a church stands up for the truth. We have a church in Cedar Rapids, IA which runs a food pantry out of their church, and they allow a Mormon couple to assist in the distribution. Members have complained that the Mormons are always proselytizing yet the pastor sees no problem.
“And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
“‘It was so offensive,’” said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. ‘I have a picture of Jesus in my living room.’
Those are the most brainless arguments ever.
Let Joseph Smith answer them for us:
3 Nephi 27:8 "And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, IF IT SO BE THAT THEY ARE BUILT UPON MY GOSPEL."
Even their Book of Mormon tells them, the name of the church doesn´t mean anything if it is not build upon the Gospel. They are NOT build on the gospel of Jesus Christ, but upon a false unbiblical gospel of works and eternal progression, who accepts a man made god as their god.
Another funny thing is how today people love to make up their own gods, and name them Jesus.
Everybody believes in Jesus, great! "My Jesus is a prosperity Jesus that only loves and doesn´t call people to repentance. What about yours? – My Jesus is the spirit-brother of Satan who is also my elder brother, cool, huh? One day i´ll become as much of a god as he is! Awesome! – Well, my Jesus is one who is always speaking to me through mystical meditation, but he is not as cool as yours though, if your Jesus didn´t ask me to pay 10% of my income maybe i would switch…"
"btw, we are all christians. Just pick your model."
Isn´t that just another way of saying "all roads lead to Heaven"?
But he problem comes down to the fact that no religion is willing to be accepting of anyone. The Mormons wont accept the gays and lesbians, the Christians wont accept the Mormons, the Jews think Christians are missing the whole point, the Muslims want to wipe out the Jews…..the list goes on. Where does it end? When are people going to get off their soap boxes and realize we are all human beings and creatures of this universe?
Kate http://www.idreamloudly.com
"But he problem comes down to the fact that no religion is willing to be accepting of anyone."
Neither are clubs, football teams, colleges, Universities… Every single group is exclusive, your point is moot.
There´s something called tolerance, that some people don´t understand when it comes to differences… You don´t have to accept what other people say, but you have to respect it.
How would you feel if an outsider stepped in your house one of these days and said he is now a member of your family, even though he discriminates against homosexuals? Would you accept him like that? Of course not. Isn´t that being exclusive, just as much as religion is?
I remember one of your posts recently, and you said you believe in love. That is your religion. You don´t accept anybody who doesn´t love, and let other love as well as they please.
"Where does it end? When are people going to get off their soap boxes and realize we are all human beings and creatures of this universe?"
I´m not a creature of the universe, but the answer to your question is tolerance/respect. Anything beyond that is pure utopia.
I agree that it is tolerance. But what some people call tolerance is instead just creating a platform to say, "While you are still "sinners", I accept you." I suppose that could be misconstrued as tolerance.
"I suppose that could be misconstrued as tolerance"
That varies according to your world view.
Evolutionists think Christians are stupid, gullible people, that believe in a sky-daddy, and have an invisible friend(Jesus), but there´s some level of respect between them, regardless. The Bible isn´t easy on the evolutionists either, but still for the most part we live peacefully together.
The same way you might dislike someone who is against homosexual marriage, and call that person anti-love, old-fashioned, etc.but still you are kind and treat them with respect in your job and elsewhere.
In other words, everyone finds fault with the people that disagrees with them.
I agree with you. I do. And every day, I try really hard to keep from wanting to tell off people that get under my skin about certain issues. I'm far from perfect, and I know that sometimes my tolerance wears thin.
Its a daily struggle.
Every world view is very different.
Also, the same way Christians preach the message of Jesus Christ, atheists put a lot of effort into convincing people that God doesn´t exist.
Everyone preaches his point of view, and try to convince others his way is correct.
The strength of Christianity is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, by which event Jesus proved to be God, and therefore He is the one who makes the rules. Evidence shows that there was no time for a myth to be created – other religions and world-views don´t have such strong evidence, or such strong claims. Good thing about that is that Christ isn´t a tyrant that demands perfection, He is loving but just at the same time, and He doesn´t force us to change by our own human philosophies or means but He provides us with a spiritual rebirth that leads us toward good works(as defined by God).
But at the end of the day if after hearing the Gospel you choose not to believe in it, i´ll still treat you with respect, the same way i expect you to treat me if i don´t agree with your views.
The big challenge is not to feel you are in a place to impose your world view on others. When you do that you´re setting yourself up as better than they. That´s dangerous, history has shown that to us.
Christians many times forget that God doesn´t care for outward performance, if the inside isn´t changed, if there´s no spiritual rebirth(through faith in Christ – just making sure i´m being clear). So, it´s of no use to force people to bend to their will… it won´t make a difference in God´s view.
In fact Christians should understand that they are sinners just as much as the person next door, and their trust must be placed in Christ for their forgiveness and not in their good works. The good works are a consequence of spiritual rebirth through faith in Christ, not the other way around.
I was raised a Catholic, moved with my parents into Messianic Judaism, and married an ex Mormon. I have been trying Bahai, Universal Unitarians, and non denominational Christianity. I don't think any of them fit me. I have a hard time being told I need to be baptized/converted/signed up/whatever before I can be classified as a good person.
I am also tired of being classified as a Christian by other Christians because they seem to think that means that I have to believe what they believe. That I have to be dubbed "decent" because Im Christian. I have stopped caling myself Christian because I feel like it comes with the assumption that I will say and do certain things, and usually I wont!
Im not sure how to feel about all of it.
There is no point in holding a belief if you don't hold it exclusively. I do not believe that Mormons are Christians, I don't hate them, nor would I discriminate against them (look down on them/degrade them, not allow them into my home, into my business, etc) But because I hold a belief in the Bible I am within my rights to not agree with their definition of 'Christian' because I do not see their definition in the Bible. I would not allow them to hold an authoritative/teaching position in my church or small group because they do not adhere to the beliefs that my church/small group follow, however, they would always be welcome. This is not discrimination. I don't know of any group that would put in charge a person who isn't of like mind (beliefs) with the group. Is it offensive when the Republicans name a fellow republican as their ticket candidate? Would it make sense to put someone who doesn't believe in recycling or that there is a need to be 'green' to head an environmental committee? The reason we hold religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to a different standard is because we are built with the understanding that there is something out there bigger than us and we are desperate to be right because the repercussions of being wrong are eternal. I believe that Christ is the way the truth and the life and that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him and it is only out of love that I won't stand by and let someone twist what the Bible says, doing so would definitely call into question how much I truly 'believe'. Non-Christians don't think that I'm correct and that's fine, I love them too, but even they would have to agree that Mormonism and historic Christianity are not one in the same. Even the mormons would have to agree that it is a much more effective tool of the devil to twist the gospel rather than denying it's existence.
"I have a hard time being told I need to be baptized/converted/signed up/whatever before I can be classified as a good person."
As an ex-mormon i can relate to how you feel. It was a huge relief to me when i left it and started understanding orthodox Christianity.
"That I have to be dubbed "decent" because Im Christian."
That´s when Christians miss the point. Mormons do the same, and it is the same for every person or group that doesn´t understand the Grace of God, and instead believe in a legalistic system.
What brought me relief was to understand that according to the real teachings of Christianity nobody can be called good or bad based on their works. The scriptures say we are all bad in the sight of God because we all disobey Him, and we deserve eternal punishment for that(hell). The good news is that Christ paid for my sins, for my disobedience, and He says that, if i trust in Him for the forgiveness of my sins, i´m saved, and that´s what makes me good before God. Faith in Christ is the criteria for one´s standing before God, and saving faith produces good works.
It´s a mockery of the Grace of God when people try to force others to try to please God through doing "good" works. Grace comes through faith, through believing in Christ. Our works can only please God if they come out of faith. "without faith it is impossible to please God"(Hebrews 11:6)
The Gospel of Jesus Christ makes clear that nobody, absolutely NOBODY is better than anyone else PERIOD. What makes us acceptable before God is faith in His son.
As a mormon i was very prideful, and i would naturally look down on people who didn´t keep the commandment as well as i did. When God opened my eyes to the true Gospel, He broke down my pride, and i just can´t bring myself to make that kind of judgement anymore. That doesn´t mean that i´ll do and accept things contrary to what God teaches in the Bible, that only means i follow the advice Christ gave:
Mat 7:3 "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
While it is a duty of a Christian to call a brother to repentance if he sees that person doing something contrary to what scriptures says, it gives him no ground whatsoever to judge that person or to classify a person as "good" or "bad". That´s the Christian worldview as i´ve learned it so far.
If anybody classifies you as "good", "decent" or "bad", tell them to take a hike.
"I have stopped caling myself Christian because I feel like it comes with the assumption that I will say and do certain things, and usually I wont!"
That´s seems to be a tricky issue. I´ve not been a Christian for very long and i see how that could be something extremely annoying, maybe the people here that have been Christians for longer could give you better advice on how to handle that.
What i know is that every religion has its requirements, and you have to decide if you accept it or not. Now, don´t accept Christianity on anybody´s opinion, but study the Bible and orthodox Christianity to see if that´s what you really believe.
I hate with a passion this whole idea of being tolerant. Homosexuals do not tolerate people telling them they are wrong, so much so they will take you to court and threaten to have you tossed into jail for a "Hate crime" Saying your wrong is not a hate crime.
You guys honestly can tell me you tolerate people lying to you? You tolerate someone trying to break into your house? Trying to rape you, if your a women? You guys really tolerate this stuff?
I doubt it. If you dont tolerate that stuff, then that means you have things you do not tolerate. Now Jesus and God dont tolerate many things, God said do not take His name in vain, I dont think He really tolerates people who do. He seems to hate false prophets and teachings, I really doubt He tolerates that, In fact read the Book of Job, He really did not tolerate Jobs friends mis-representing God. God made that very clear. khippor, You can say all you want you do not like other Christians saying your not a Christian, well It's not so much us, But the Bible lays out what we are to be doing and believing. Even Jesus said, not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter heaven. Your correct about no one being perfect, but God says who are His Children and who are not. Maybe instead of saying I do not like Christians say about me, say, I read the Bible, and I dont agree with God and what He says, That would be more accurate.
You are all missing the point. It is the exact opposite in my opinion. My neighbor's mormon church has their OWN boy scout troop. We want to include mormons, yet because they are taught 'isolation' to keep themselves 'pure', they do their own thing too. The article says they cannot be mormon leaders. No one is excluding them as volunteers or members. Maybe someone should try to go to our neighborhood ward who is an authentic historical biblical Christian, and ask to be a volunteer in our Mormon ward as a Boy Scout Leader. Good luck with that.
"I hate with a passion this whole idea of being tolerant."
So, Rick, i have to ask you – is it ok for others to not tolerate you? Are you saying it is ok for Pagans to kill Christians because Christians profaned their gods and wouldn´t bow down to them?
"You guys honestly can tell me you tolerate people lying to you? You tolerate someone trying to break into your house? Trying to rape you, if your a women? You guys really tolerate this stuff? "
You are taking this discussion to a whole other level, talking about crime – it doesn´t relate to my argument. I don´t think you understand the meaning of the word "tolerate" in the context i provided.
"God said do not take His name in vain, I dont think He really tolerates people who do."
So why hasn´t he destroyed the entire world like it happened in the flood already? What is He waiting for if He doesn´t tolerate us, in our sins, seeking that all would be saved?
"He seems to hate false prophets and teachings, I really doubt He tolerates that"
Why then doesn´t he kill all of the false prophets and be done with it?
All i was saying is that in order for us to live with each other, we have to respect each other´s beliefs. That DOES NOT mean you can´t tell a person he or she is wrong, that only means that if the person doesn´t care about what you say, you have to treat that person with respect anyways.
Beyond that things can only be dealt with in a court of law.
"khippor, You can say all you want you do not like other Christians saying your not a Christian" – and – "Maybe instead of saying I do not like Christians say about me"
We don´t even know if those Christians she was referring to are really Christians though, for all we know they could be Jehovah´s witnesses, or some sort of legalistic Christianity, that calls fire and brimstone upon those who drink alcohol and watch "R" rated movies.
"the Bible lays out what we are to be doing and believing."
That´s exactly what i told her, study the Bible and see if you really believe it. If she doesn´t than she isn´t a Christian. I´ll still tolerate and respect her anyways.
As she said in a later post, she is in doubt, asking for some help in understanding those issues that she´s been through, so i ask you Rick, why can´t i have patience with her? I told her my experience and why i believe the gospel, and i trust God will guide her to the truth and she will come to the conclusions herself.
That´s how i have to deal with my Mormon family, they don´t accept the Gospel, how can i be around them and not tolerate them?
Remember:
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Why did Jesus tolerate those Samaritans? They were not even part of the covenant people…
F_melo,
Calvin and Hobbes Rock!!
I read every book and love the mandibles of death, LOL.
But the best was how Calvin drank the magic milk elixir, turned invisible, then was caught naked by his mother in the cookie jar. LOL.
Thank you!
I love that stuff too!
One of my favorites is when he enters a box and tries to ship himself to Antarctica because he doesn´t stay home with Rosalyn. Unfortunately she catches him in the act.
I agree with in you in the sense that i can´t tolerate people who INTENTIONALLY mislead others for their own personal gain.
"Also He gave a parable of the wheat and tares, He simply does not kill off everyone other wise we all, even me and you would be dead."
Isn´t that a form of tolerance though? Doesn´t God "put up" with sin for a while?
The definition of tolerance i´m using is "b : to put up with <learn to tolerate one another>" source <a href="http://:http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tolerate?show=0&t=1287683924” target=”_blank”>:http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tolerate?show=0&t=1287683924
F_melo said
Homosexuals do not tolerate me, So I guess since they do not tolerate me I am ok with that. No I am not saying it ok for pagans to kill Christians, But I guess it is better to speak the truth and say, as the Bible says, your idols/gods have no ears to hear, they have mouths but cannot speak, they cannot save you, If I die as a result, it's better to die speaking the truth, then not say a word and live.
In the OT, God took down the false god Dagon, the first time he fell they put him back up, the second time God knocked him over, his hands and head were broken off. God apparently did not tolerate/respect a false god. Paul say, if you do not love Jesus you will be accursed, I guess Paul does not respect people who do not love Jesus. Paul called blindness down upon a sorcerer, I guess he does not respect that false prophets belief's and the fact he was leading people astray. Since I readf those examples, I will share the Love of God with people, Love the sinner, yet hate the sin. But I will not respect what they teach or believe.
When I read the Bible, the words respect and tolerate people and their false gods and false teachings always just come to mind when ever I read this,
Thats just a few of the verses I think of.
Here are a few more, that really tell me I should respect false teachings,
I honestly think we are more worried about what people will think of us than we are of the fact they are lost and going to hell, that why we do not speak the truth boldly as scripture tells us.
Rick, i honestly think you are not understanding the "tolerance" as i explained it.
The same way Jesus said He is the Way, Pagans will say the opposite.
What i was getting at, wasn´t that we shouldn´t speak the truth, but that we should tolerate and respect each other.
To make things clear, i said "You don´t have to accept what other people say, but you have to respect it."
I shouldn´t have put it that way. I guess when i said that i was thinking more about freedom of speech. You have to respect and tolerate that if you want to keep your freedom to say what you want, and be heard with respect as well.
The correct way to put it would be:
1.We should tolerate(put up with) each others beliefs.
2. We should respect THE PEOPLE that believe on those things.
Even though i don´t like Thomas Monson and i don´t tolerate what he does, i would still respect him and be courteous.
I never said you have to accept, and that doesn´t mean you can´t tell the truth about other beliefs either.
Rick, thanks for questioning what i said, helped me clarify the meaning of it.
Rick i understand your position, but my approach is more like that of Paul when he was in Athens:
Act 17:23-24 "For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,"
He didn´t start saying their gods were false, and their worship was abomination. He used their false beliefs as a way to expose the true God.
Most of those passages you quoted are Paul counseling the Christians. Those were not missionary instructions for preaching to the Pagans, even though they can be used for that as well.
Well I guess thats why were a body, were all different parts, for people who think I am tough, Google L.E.Romaine, He's an Asst, pastor for Calvary Chapel, he has since died, but he was very tough and in your face. This was said about him
Also you can google Ken Graves and listen to both of them on line, He was my pastor when I was living in Maine, He is very tough and in your face. People now adays are so PC and timid that it's not funny.
F_melo said
I never said dont be courteous, I can be loving and courteous towards someone, yet I wont respect them. I have little patience for people who care so much about hurting someones feelings that they wont share the truth of Jesus. The gospel is offensive and Jesus said be Hot or Cold, not luke warm. If we speak the truth people will be upset. But I'm not saying upset people for the sake of upsetting them.
Sharon said,
”Mr. Rowlan is surely mistaken when he says Mormons are Christians “in every sense of the word.” Perhaps in every sense of the word as he defines it, or as the LDS Church defines it, but not necessarily as others may understand and define Christianity.”
We have been through this before many times about are LDS Christian or not. The comment I have bolded is correct in the fact that others have a limited definition of ‘Christian’ – usually the Traditional Christian movement as I know some Christians (by your definition) who accept LDS as Christians even though they know the differences. However, the majority of the world defines ‘Christian’ as someone who believes in and accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour and follows His teachings. Since the newspaper article is to the majority of the world and not to the small band of Traditional Christians who have a stricter definition, the statement that Mr Rowlan made is correct.
As far as the LDS couple not being allowed to be scout leaders for that church’s scout pack, I agree with the church. They have their rules/criteria for their leadership positions and the LDS church has theirs. For any positions within our church, including paid custodian positions, the person has to be a member, as far as I know. So if we have ‘membership’ as one of our criteria, then why can’t another church?
Would a LDS Bishop accept a non-LDS Christian to lead any of their groups? Does it work the other way around, do we think?
The Bible says "what does righteousness,and wickedness have in commom",and to "come out from them,and be separate".They have every right to obey God' in this,and anything else He tells them to do.We are to put God first in everything,no matter what man thinks we should do.
God also tells us to keep ourselves pure.
I swear this is true, I'm not making it up. A few years ago I saw a story on a major web news site. It was about an international convention of lesbians in Australia. The organization would not allow men who had had sex changes and claimed they were lesbians into the convention. They weren't "real" lesbians. I was confused and didn't really even know what questions to ask myself in thinking about this. My wife told me that some things probably shouldn't be thought about. I started to worry that maybe I was a male lesbian!
I teach college courses occasionally and I talk about tolerance. It seems we've gone from being required to be tolerant, to being accepting and now we are required to affirm, accept and finally celebrate others folks' "differences".
I guess what I'd do with the Mormons who want to be scout leaders is walk them through the statement of faith and ask them to affirm each point along with affirming the Church's position on the nature of God. Then I would invite them to to say the sinner's prayer and baptize them. How about that?
Heres the deal folks, my wife was mormon and I attended her wards for 5 straight years.
I am not a member yet I served on the "Activitees Committee" 3 times, each with a different ward. It was the ONLY position they could give me because I wasn't a member.
So for them to be upset would be as silly as if I were upset I couldn't be elders quorum president – WHY? BECAUSE IM NOT A MORMON, IM A CHRISTIAN!
If Mormons are Christians then Christians are Mormons, and in which case there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to be stake president of the LDS church.
But.. I can't be, why? because we dont adhere to the same doctrine.
Sack up Stokes family. Quit pulling the victim card like most of your "brethren" do.
" People now adays are so PC and timid that it's not funny."
You are right, that´s why it is a body. The "timid" can reach where the bold won´t.
You should tell Jesus that, He was usually around the lowest people in the society, including prostitutes.
Jesus was called friend of sinners:
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
That association is referring to their wicked practices and beliefs, which is exactly what Christ Covenant Church did, while leaving the door opened for them to help in other manners
"and not to the small band of Traditional Christians"
Oh, no, you didn´t. Look at how tiny your church is before you come here saying stuff like that. I mean look at how many people actually attend out of the supposed 13 million… what a joke.
"For any positions within our church, including paid custodian positions"
You forgot to mention your paid clergy as well.
Prove once and for all that mormonism is first century christianity – it doesn´t come even close, and Christians shouldn´t just let you steal that title.
So, you follow Christ, huh? That´s something i would like to see… Your self-righteousness betrays you every time.
No because the non-lds are not worthy to hold the priesthood, and won´t be able to be an example to the kids that should be preparing to go on a mission when they are 19.
I agree that our church membership is smaller than that of the combined Traditional Christian movement, however my remarks were about the whole world. Put together the people that belong the the Traditional Christian movement against the rest of the world is a small number. So I stand by my comment.
I believe in Christ and follow Him, this is seen in my actions/works. You believe in Christ but do you follow Him with your actions/works? Does that make you self-righteous?
Paid clergy? I know that the General Authorities that also take on commercial roles for the church are paid for those roles, but they never receive any recompense for their priesthood duties. If I were to go to one of them for a blessing I do not have to pay anything, even if I don't pay tithing.
"against the rest of the world is a small number"
I still have a problem with that, because you´re saying the rest of the world is the authority that can define what Christianity is.
If the majority of the U.S. were to define mormonism instead of "the small band of Traditional" Mormons, the church would be officially considered a polygamous cult. (maybe not so much now, but go back twenty years). Who defines mormonism? The mormons. Who defines Christianity? The Christians already did almost two thousand years ago.
"I believe in Christ and follow Him"
I don´t believe you do, even though you say you do. But again, here´s the distinction – i believe in the Christ of orthodox Christianity as taught by the Bible, you believe in a Christ that was revealed by Joseph Smith.
Think about this – what if tomorrow i said i had a revelation in which God told me that the Mormon church was in apostasy, and i had to restore it. I would then re-define what historical mormonism is. I would then call myself mormon, and you i would call a false mormon, or a mormon from a corrupt mormonism. How would you feel?
"Paid clergy?" Yes, your CES guys are paid clergy(institute teachers, etc.). Your apostles and prophet also work for the church full time – isn´t their allowance a for of payment?
I love his snow sculptures.
F_melo,
to go off of what you said, you can use the RLDS and the FLDS and the many other LDS offshoot groups. LDS do not allow them to call themselves Mormons, Yet they Believe in and read the BoM, the D and C and follow JS. Why is that? Seems a little hypocritical to me.
The Timid wont reach though, They are to afraid to speak the truth, they cannot say, Your wrong or the Bible says….
Because they are so timid, Jesus said be Hot or Cold, In my opinion being timid is being luke warm. If the timid are PC then they are not willing to say what needs to be said and then that means not using the Bible which is the basis of what we believe.
I say this because I know people even in my own church that are so timid they never say anything to anyone because they dont want to hurt their feelings.
I said it in an earlier post, most positions in the LDS church have 'member' as one of the criteria. Here in Australia if a job is advertised in the papers to the general public then there cannot be any discrimination like 'member' involved in the criteria. So if that church advertised the scout leader postition openly, they would be taken to court if they then turned around and said that they have to subscribe to a certain set of beliefs. However, if it was an internal advertisment then they can put what they like in as criteria as its a job that is targeted at a set population, not general public. So here in Australia the majority of the jobs for our church are advertised in-house.
But as I said, I agree that the church in the article above have the right to say who can and can't be leader according to what they want to see in a person in that position, just as our church does.
I´m timid though, but i´m not afraid to speak the truth.
When i was researching all of this stuff about mormonism i told a friend of mine i had come to the conclusion the church was a fraud. I´ve told family members that Joseph using a seer stone was occultism, etc.
I´ve also been defending the Bible against subjective spiritual experiences for quite a while.
Usually what i do is i talk about subjects that will help open people´s eyes… and i try to help them see it for themselves that their conclusions are wrong. I do that asking lots of questions.
That´s a timid method compared to what you´ve said before, but it was the method that worked with me quite frankly.
I tell them the truth while defending an argument, and helping them come to the right conclusion. Usually the mormons i have talked to that way, they see what i´m saying and then come to a point where they can no longer base their arguments on the scriptures but have to go to personal conjecture.
That´s when i tell the truth as it is, in a meek, but confident manner, having the Bible as the authority.
I do not view you as timid, The dictionary defines timid like this.
1.
lacking in self-assurance, courage, or bravery; easily alarmed; timorous; shy.
2.
characterized by or indicating fear: a timid approach to a problem.
It's people that are like that, that will never share the gospel in an effective way. Believe it or not, I had a 4 hour talk with 2 MM's and I also spoke with another set of them, It went something like this.
A friend of mine had 2 MM's visit him and he needed help, I told him I would come over and listen only, unless I felt they were lying to him, then I would speak up. I told him, just be yourself and ask questions, so he did.
One question he asked was, can I drink coffee if I become a mormon, They said NO, we cannot drink coffee, I then spoke up and said, Hold it, you guys are lying or ignorant and misleading my friend.
Your scriptures teach you cannot drink Hot Drinks, and you guys define that as coffee and tea. So to be more accurate and Honest you should say, we cannot drink hot drinks. One guy got really mad at me and said, I feel a spirit of contention.
I told him, so your going to pull that crap them, well then if you lie to me, and I call you on it, then you cry, spirit of contention, how can any one honestly ask you questions?
Well His friend was so impressed by my blunt honest approach that we talked for two hours and he wanted to meet me again. So we meet again and spoke for two more hours. He like me so much he wanted to meet me one last time, telling me the next time would be his last since he was being moved on.
Well he called me and said he was really sick with the flu, but he wanted to meet me anyway, so he asked me if I could pick him and his partner up at the MM house and bring them to my friends house, So I did.
Then we talked for about 1 hour, then after that we simply spent the last hour talking about ourselves and our likes and dislikes. I told him I really loved super hot and spicy food and make my own hot sauce and award winning hot dry spices. I live here in St Paul MN, and we have a restaurant called Buffalo wild wings, they have a blazin wing challenge. You need to eat 12 blazin wings in 6 minutes or less to win.
Well we were talking about this challenge and he said he never heard of it but would love to try it. So I gave him a bottle of my hot spice, Hot sauce a bag of chips to try the sauce and got him a 25 dollar gift card to take the blazin wing challenge.
He took the challenge and sent me photos of him and two MM's with him. We kept in touch and wrote back and forth for a while, he took the challenge a second time and sent me pictures of him and his buddies just about crying. I have saved all of his leaders and pictures, he loved me to death and we became friends, it's all because I was honest with him and pulled no punches, he truly respected that. I now use the letters and pictures as a way to witness to other LDS, I point out that I can be friends with them and yet be honest with them.
Funny thing about those letters and pictures, I had two LDS come to my house, I wanted to put them at ease and so I used the letters to point out that I really do care about them, When they found out I was friends with this LDS member they were in shock, I asked why, they said he is a legend in his ward, I asked why, they said because of him, all MM's are now going and taking the blazin wing challenge and it's because of him. So I told them the story and they were surprised it was because of me that he is a legend. So yes I can love them, be friends with them and be brutally honest. And I keep all letters and pictures as evidence and a way to reach other LDS.
Jesus was called friend of sinners:
Luke7:34 The Son of Man has come eating,and drinking,and you say,"Look at him! A glutton,and a drunkard,a friend of tax collectors,and sinners!"
But what did Jesus say He was here to do?He was here "to seek,and to save the lost",not to be buddies with them,and respect what they were doing. Anyone close to Him knew what He was there for,and what they could expect from Him.He never acted like what they were doing was fine.He let them know they were in need of a "Savior",and they responded,because they knew that was true.They were together for that purpose,and none other.He said,to "make no friendship with the world"so,He wasn't doing that either,if He was,He was a hypocrite,and we know that's not true.The accusation that He was a friend of sinners came from those who were against Him.But in fact,He was there to do what He said He was,and He was just getting close enough to do that.if they had wanted to stay in their sin,they would have had no part of Him.No,what they wanted was what He came to give,salvation for their needy souls.The very purpose He was there for.
I was the commissioner for a very large mormon troop. Its scoutmaster was a non-mormon along with 70% of its committee and youth. I have had other scout units like this one, just the opposite. Many non-Mormon and a few Mormons. Everyone got along. The focus in each troop, pack or post/crew was scouting. Each chartering organization can set their own requirements for its scout leadership, but those requirements still have to be within BSA policy.Now it will be up to the courts to decide.
"We don't even know if those Christians she was referring to are really Christians though,for all we know they could be Jehovah's Witnesses,OR SOME SORT OF LEGALISTIC CHRISTIAN THAT CALLS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE UPON THOSE WHO DRINK ALCOHOL AND WATCH "R"RATED MOVIES.
Are you saying you think "R"rated movies are fine for a Christian to view? God is a moral God,and has told us throughout the Bible He expects us to be also.I think if you are honest with yourself,you would have to agree going to "R"rated movies is not an acceptable choice of intertainment for a Christian.For one thing,I don't think you as a man can set through one without experiencing,at least to some degree,lusting in your heart.And you know what God thinks abou that.It's the same as committing the act.And to Him that's sin.To put yourself in a position where you know that would happen,is to set yourself up to sin.And that is not acceptable intertainment for us,and to God it's sin.
,
These are some pretty hateful comments, but I start off my comments about your poor logic.
Mormon = Christian does not mean Christian = Mormon. You can be a Christian and belong to one of several groups or just be by yourself. They all are Christian as long as you believe in Jesus Christ.
There's one very good reason you couldn't be Stake President or many of the other callings in the church. You said it yourself, you don't adhere to the same doctrine. One simple fact is that if you don't believe in what you teach, your message will be confusing and unbelievable. You'd be a hypocrite.
It seems you're pretty upset. I'm guessing it isn't because of the main topic. Maybe your pride got in the way or maybe your home teachers in each of the wards you were in didn't do a good job explaining things to you.
"Are you saying you think "R"rated movies are fine for a Christian to view"
Yes, that´s what i´m saying. Of course that depends on the movie. I wouldn´t watch "R" rated movies where there´s a lot of pornography in it, but i see no problem in watching Kill Bill(this was rather funny), The Godfather, etc.
There´s a mormon company in Utah,i forget the name, that cleans up movies for you – that´s a good alternative.
".And you know what God thinks abou that"
Lust is a sin, as much as lying and murdering in your heart(getting angry at you brother). Do you do those things? Everyone breaks all of God´s commandments – you know what God thinks about that.
While that´s no excuse for one to freely sin, as John said, if we sin, God will forgive us. That doesn´t mean i´ll be looking for ways to sin and that i won´t avoid temptation.
"And that is not acceptable intertainment for us"
I can always use the dvd menu and skip a scene. The irony is that i may be watching a "clean" movie on tv and then a pornographic commercial pops up… i´ll experience lust anyways.
" He expects us to be also"
God expects us to be perfect even as He is perfect. Only one was perfect, Jesus Christ. For us, faith in Him, repentance and forgiveness of sins.
"We're not taught isolationism"
That´s true. That also depends on the family and the local culture… some mormons are some aren´t.
"I do wonder why the LDS family didn't choose their ward's troop first, though"
the reason is explained in the article:
"The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys."
"These are some pretty hateful comments"
Show us why they are hateful, i thought he was rather polite while exposing the mormon attitude.
"Mormon = Christian does not mean Christian = Mormon"
He was referring to the fact the Mormon church keeps saying they are christians just like us, "we are all christians" and that´s a lie. You believe in a Jesus revealed by Joseph Smith. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible.
"You said it yourself, you don't adhere to the same doctrine"
So, who gets to be called Christians? The ones from the historic Christianity that comes from Christ Himself, or late comers like you, that say Christianity was corrupted and you have the "real" doctrine, without providing any evidence for any of those claims at all?
I was shocked once, when i asked a mormon – "do you believe a buddhist that helps children and homeless people will go to heaven even though he denies Jesus Christ? He answered "yes".
Also in your General Conference this month, i heard more people praising Thomas Monson than Jesus. He was talked more about than Jesus Himself. Your men-worship is incompatible with true Christianity.
"Maybe your pride got in the way" By the way you pointed fingers i would imagine the one hurt was you.
" or maybe your home teachers in each of the wards you were in didn't do a good job explaining things to you"
Yeah, because he is too stupid to understand things for himself.