This is the Christian message of how sinful man is graciously and mercifully reconciled to God. How well does this line up with the messages presented last weekend at the LDS General Conference?
“From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
Love this! I love how the child of God had the biggest file to demonstrate just how sinful us humans truly are, and then how Jesus was weighed for him not in addition to him. Thanks for sharing this!
This question was asked
To me this question implies that the Christian Message contradicts the LDS message. I thought according to Mormons we believe the same thing. So how can their be contradictions? It seems to me we do teach a different Gospel contrary to what the LDS say.
Just goes to show that Jesus doesn't save the qualified, he qualifies the saved.
That's a wonderful demonstration… Thank you! I wish to post it on my blog too…
When you have a minute, please stop by for some Coffee with Jesus
~NRIGirl
Seems perfectly in line to me.
For an example, if you are truly interested, see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zanJexA5SE
Watch, and listen, to see what we were taught concerning pride, those who elevate their so-called good works, or anything, above others, or who try to justify themselves before God with such things. And also of those who look down on others, or who have the idea, "Thank God I'm better than you." HINT: Not a doctrine of the Church, and a denounced as a key tool of the Adversary.
The message is that we should strive to emulate the life and attributes of the Savior that we may humble ourselves before Him, and to be of greater use in His hands to bless the lives of those around us.
I have a hard time thinking that any Christian would find anything disagreeable with the principles in the above message.
Sharon, did you watch/listen to Conference? Were there any messages you would be willing to admit that you agreed with? Do you agree with the message in the linked video?
I did not watch or listen to General Conference–I always wait until I can read the talks, as this gives me a better opportunity to think, ponder, look up referenced scriptures, etc. My question above, asking how well the "Good-o-Meter" video message lines up with the messages from General Conference, is just a question. However, historically, GC messages have not been in line with the above video message at all. Consider these few:
“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” (Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2007, p.87).
“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life” (Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42).
“We are living eternal life, and our position hereafter will be the result of our lives here. Every man will be judged according to his works, and he will receive only that degree of glory that he has earned. (Conference Reports, April 1945, p. 139.)” (The Teachings of George Albert Smith, p.30).
LDS leaders often teach that the eternal life one will enjoy is "earned" or "merited" by their own works/behavior. Indeed, this is the restored gospel. But the biblical Gospel is illustrated by the video above; it is not our works, but Christ's works that are weighed and considered toward the eternal life of His people. As Rick the Hammer wrote elsewhere on this thread, the LDS restored gospel is a different gospel.
Thank you for replying. I would still be interested in your thoughts on the video posted.
Often, there is confusion between the LDS distinction between 'Salvation', and 'Exaltation'. In an LDS Context, Salvation is being rescued from Sin and Death, and returning to God's presence to dwell with Him. This is not merited by the individual – it comes to those who accept Christ as their Savior, and express their reliance on Him by striving to turn away from their sinful lifestyle, and entering into a Covenant Relationship with Christ.
As long as the individual does not choose to altogether turn away from the Lord and to deny his Grace, he is justified before God.
Once we accept Christ and turn towards him, our works have nothing to do with that justification. It is as presented in the video you posted: we are judged according to Christ's merits. (go to scriptures.lds.org and search the Book of Mormon for the word 'merit' – it only comes up in relation to Christ's merits, and making clear that individual merits are nothing in the sight of God when it comes to Salvation.)
Exaltation is an additional privilege and responsibility the Lord also desires for his children to have. To not just be with Him, but to truly share in His joy by tutoring us to become as He is – the ultimate Servant, empowered to give the greatest amount of Service.
Because we understand this is a chief goal God has for His children, in conference, this is often what is spoken of, and what the language often refers to. Exaltation comes to those who fully submit themselves to the Lord, and faithfully utilize the tools he has provided with the intent of serving God through service to others. Compare, for example, the parable of the talents.
Modern LDS parlance tends to use the phrase 'Eternal Life' in this way, to refer to exaltation – not in the equivalent evangelical view of Salvation.
I think this distinction is often lost in such discussions, and leads to a great deal of 'talking past each other'.
dltayman,
How can mormons honestly teach works in any way, shape or form when we know God said, we are Saved by Grace not OF WORKS, least any man Should Boast.
I know many would be in heaven saying, Yep God did His part but look what I did…..
Yep thank you Jesus, but know let me spend some time sharing all the great things I did to get here that you could not seem to do.
Hey every one, Not trying to Boast, but guess what I did to help earn salvation?
That kind of stuff would happen and you know it would.
Also you hint at the three degree of heaven, You said
I see this as a subtle hint because their are 3 heavens and the first one, pretty much everyone will go to, and God and Jesus will not be their. So Jesus said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. How is that possible if He is not in heaven with us. This open many other questions also, Like, How can family's remain together forever if My wife is in the 3rd heaven because she was not a faithful mormon, or she went onto become a jack mormon, but I fulfilled everything required of me.
Or, God said, Their are no GODS BEFORE ME AND NONE WILL COME AFTER ME. Yet LDS teach we will and can become a god. How is that honestly possible if God said it is not? You pretty much need to call God a liar, and say, well this is one case He (God) Got it wrong.
"This is not merited by the individual – it comes to those who accept Christ as their Savior, and express their reliance on Him by striving to turn away from their sinful lifestyle, and entering into a Covenant Relationship with Christ."
Sorry, but your 3 article of faith makes it clear(as well as your doctrine in general) that:
"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
You´re saved by obedience, and not by accepting Christ and everything else you said in your post above. It´s been more than 4 years since i finished my mission, and i never heard anything like you just said in the MTC, and didn´t teach that at all for the 2 years of my mission.
My entire family is still active in the church and if i told them what you posted above, they would pick up stones to stone me(verbally, of course 😉
You said:
"Sorry, but your 3 article of faith makes it clear(as well as your doctrine in general) that:
"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
And the next article of Faith states what they are: Faith in Christ, Repentance, Baptism (the sign of the covenant), and reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost (the agent which cleanses us).
Repenting is obedience to Christ, and turning to Him. The most important element of which is striving and desiring to do His will. It is our desires that matter – and often times our desires are made manifest by our actions.
I returned from my mission two years ago. I now serve in a position in the stake that permits me to speak often to members throughout the stake. Haven't been stoned yet.
And you're right – I am striving – not just to sound Christian, but to be a Christian.
"express their reliance on Him by striving to turn away from their sinful lifestyle, and entering into a Covenant Relationship with Christ."
That´s the whole point of this post – there´s no striving, we can´t do it! Can you really strive to turn away from sin? Do you mean to tell me you can be perfect?
If you can´t be perfect through striving to be free from sin, then you´re condemned according to your own standards.
The truth is, we are all sinners. There are no little sins or big sins, before God it´s all sin – no amount of striving will change that, even if you somehow manage to keep some aspects of your law, you will still fail in the majority(remember, there are also the sins of omission).
Only by grace(unmerited favor) through faith in Christ we can be saved. That saving faith will produce the good works you´re trying so hard to accomplish. You´re trying to "put the cart before the horse", by saying that to accept Christ you need to turn away from sin.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Strive: to struggle vigorously, as in opposition or resistance
We can strive to halt sinful habits and behaviors. I didn't say _anything_ about making ourselves perfect. I do believe that the principles in the Sermon on the Mount are principles we should, yes, strive, to live. Of course we won't be perfect. But the Lord wants us to put forth the effort in this life, in order to better bless the lives of others. that is separate from our Final Destination. While we recognize we are living in the Grace of Christ, we should still strive to separate from our sinful habits and ways, relying on the Lord to help us overcome.
The parable of the talents shows that the Lord expects us to work with the gifts he has given us – that this is a manifestation of our true devotion and change in our loves. One who does not work to help in building the kingdom must not have true devotion to the Lord.
I believe in the power of Christ to change us even now, in this life. He has given us the scriptures to give examples as to how we can do that, with His assistance.
And no, I did not say we need to have removed ourselves from all sin to accept Christ – that's impossible! – , but rather do an about-face, and begin walking towards Christ, instead of walking towards the world. That's what repentance literally means – to turn. It's not a destination, it's a process. When we repent, we begin to turn our desires towards the Lord's desires, and to voluntarily give up the sinful habits that we can. The Lord will assist with the rest, as we continue to submit to His will, by actively doing His will.
Grace does save me. But a billion people praying for the poor man to get food won't feed him. Someone needs to get up, and do what Christ did – care for the poor and afflicted. And that is one way the Grace of God will be expressed to that individual – by seeing the Lord working through one of his servants.
I do what I do out of love and devotion for my savior. Not to earn anything.
"How can mormons honestly teach works in any way, shape or form when we know God said, we are Saved by Grace not OF WORKS, least any man Should Boast. "
We don't teach works to save. We teach works to bless the lives of God's other children on the earth who are in need, and to express our love of God, and our Trust in Him.
Christ went forth seeing to those in need. He fed them physically and spiritually. Those were works. He didn't do them to save himself – he did them out of love. Likewise with me.
No faithful Mormon would ever try to boast their way into heaven. They would bow to the Savior, and recognize His Atoning power.
"Also you hint at the three degree of heaven, You said
Exaltation is an additional privilege and responsibility the Lord also desires for his children to have."
The standard Evangelical view of Salvation in Heaven is equivalent to our view of the Celestial Kingdom. (that 'third heaven you referred to). Exaltation is different – it consists of additional degrees within the Celestial Kingdom. It is a manifestation of God's love that He wants not only to Save us, but to lift us higher and enable us to experience all that He has! How great the power and Love of God to do that!
When I speak of Salvation, I speak of dwelling in the presence of our Father, and His Christ. The requirements for dwelling in the presence of God are faith in Christ, repentance towards Christ, entering into a Covenant with the Lord to demonstrate your commitment to him, and receiving the Holy Ghost as a cleansing agent – and continuing to desire to remain in such a relationship with Christ.
This is the Gospel taught by the LDS Church, in the words of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon (from 3 Nephi 27)
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
—
Those who have not accepted Christ are judged according to their own merits. Those who accept Christ according to His terms are judged according to Christ's merits, and they are held guiltless.
"I now serve in a position in the stake that permits me to speak often to members throughout the stake. Haven't been stoned yet. "
I honestly doubt you go around your stake saying:"our works have nothing to do with that justification", "we are judged according to Christ's merits", what about it is by the grace of God we are saved after all we can do?
You´re not being honest here, and if you are, your leaders and regular members don´t have a clue what mormon doctrine is.
"It is our desires that matter", no, according to the scriptures our hearts only desire what´s evil before God, and our hearts are purified by faith in Christ – and not the other way around.
" The most important element of which is striving and desiring to do His will" – Again that´s the whole point of the video – when do you know you have done enough?
"And the next article of Faith states" – So what, it is still by obedience that you are saved(exalted), it doesn´t matter what goes after. You´ve have turned the grace of God into a new law.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
You can strive all you want, you´ll never make it, unless you´re able to keep the entire law perfectly, at all moments.
You appear to be actively looking for something to disagree with, and not reading what I am actually saying. I hope to be proved wrong on this observation.
I have, actually, taught across the pulpit (just last month, actually) that Justification is through the merits of Christ alone, and that we receive that grace when we accept Christ's yoke through faith, repentance, and entering into a covenant relationship with Him.
I declared in a Sunday school class just a couple weeks ago that those who enter into Covenant with Christ and desire to remain therein are judged according to Christ's merits when it comes to receiving Salvation. No stones. Nods of agreement, however, were quite manifest.
I am being honest. Your accusations aren't helpful. Neither is your claim that our leaders and regular members aren't as accurate in their understanding of Mormon doctrine as you claim to be.
–""It is our desires that matter", no, according to the scriptures our hearts only desire what´s evil before God, and our hearts are purified by faith in Christ – and not the other way around. "—
So you never, ever, desire to do the will of the Lord? You never desire to bring others to Christ, to care for those in need, and to uplift your fellow man? You never desire to be a better, more humble servant of the Lord? Those are things my heart desires.
–" The most important element of which is striving and desiring to do His will" – Again that´s the whole point of the video – when do you know you have done enough? "–
When no one else in the world needs assistance, or a servant of the Lord blessing their lives. Once you see those conditions, then would be a good time to re-raise the question. The Lord will force no one to serve him. We need to submit to his will. And when we do, we will desire to be instruments in His hands. I know I desire to be such. And by desiring so, I am able to be utilized as such. I am eternally grateful for the Change the Lord has made in my life.
–"So what, it is still by obedience that you are saved(exalted), it doesn´t matter what goes after."–
Salvation is not the same as Exaltation.
–"You can strive all you want, you´ll never make it, unless you´re able to keep the entire law perfectly, at all moments."–
Again: I do not believe our works save us. I do, however, believe the Lord is pleased when, after acknowledging his Grace has saved us and will justify us, we strive to better do His will in the here and now.
"We can strive to halt sinful habits and behaviors. I didn't say _anything_ about making ourselves perfect."
So you mean that, you can´t turn away from sin, but at least you have to give your best shot? Is that what God truly requires according to scriptures? I don´t think so.
Here´s what the Book of Mormon says:
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.(Moroni 10:32)
According to your own scriptures you have to: 1)deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness(isn´t that the same as becoming perfect?) 2)love God with all your might 3)love God with all your mind 4)love God with all your strength. Then and ONLY THEN, by his grace you MAY be perfect in Christ.
Good luck with that!
"I believe in the power of Christ to change us even now" – That actually happens when we are born of the Spirit, we become dead to the flesh and are made alive in Christ, that´s the whole point of becoming a Christian, to become a new creature in Christ, justified by faith in His blood.
"When we repent, we begin to turn our desires towards the Lord's desires, and to voluntarily give up the sinful habits that we can."
If you can "voluntarily give up the sinful habits", then why do you need Christ at all? What about the sinful habits you can´t give up? In my mission i met people who received the mormon gospel gladly but couldn´t be baptized because they couldn´t stop smoking. What will happen to them since they can´t keep the mormon commandments?
" The Lord will assist with the rest, as we continue to submit to His will, by actively doing His will. "
Too bad, i guess that couple that couldn´t stop smoking didn´t receive the Lord´s assistance, i guess the Lord didn´t care for them to be baptized…
How can anyone submit to Christ´s will if they can´t give up their sinful habits? If you receive God´s assistance through obedience, but at the same time you´re not capable of obeying… hmm.. what a dead end. Too bad Christ doesn´t care for those people.
"Grace does save me. But a billion people praying for the poor man to get food won't feed him. Someone needs to get up, and do what Christ did – care for the poor and afflicted."
Does good works save you? If you deny Christ you can help all the people you want, it will serve you nothing because you will have to answer to God according to the law(as demonstrated in the video).
By the way – a new creature in Christ will bring forth good fruits, not out of obligation because of binding covenants, but because that person is saved, and saving faith produces good fruit out of love.
"I do what I do out of love and devotion for my savior. Not to earn anything."
Yes you do – you earn your exaltation. If that´s not the case, why do you make covenants in the temple that make you swear you will do those things, in order to receive the higher blessings of the priesthood, to become gods?
dltayman, I appreciate that you recognize how important it is to try and understand eacn other.As you stated it is too easy "talking past each other". I agree.You described the term, " salvation" and what it means to you. Let me quote a statement on thisterm as used in your church curriculim : " To get salvation, we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded." [ Teachings of the Presidents of the Church–J.S. p.161 ]Also , concerning your use of the term, " exaltation" , to mean an " additional privledge" which youcan receive: That might be a way to describe your beliefs to an investigator, but in my studiesof Church curriculim and teachings by Mormon Gen.Authorities, this would be refering to whata worthy Mormon male can eventually attain to , namely becoming an Almighty God, and thus being adorned and worshipped as such . I would appreciate your comments.
ww
"Those who accept Christ according to His terms are judged according to Christ's merits" – after all you can do, because if you don´t than you have no grace either.
I understand the verse to speak of the need for reliance on the Lord. We are inherently weak. The verse is a very vivid way of describing how much he desires us to voluntarily give ourselves (submit) to him (our heart, minds, and strength) – when we give all we have to Him, then everything we do is no longer us doing it – it is the Lord working through our hearts, minds, and strength. He becomes those things within us! All good we do from then on is merited to Christ.
Oh – and Covenants are tools given us by the Lord, wherein the Lord promises additional help and blessings as we commit to and fulfill our end. As we are obedient to our covenants, we are greater empowered to serve Him, and serve our fellow man. They are powerful blessings, which I have personally experienced in my life.
And in the context, "all we can do" is exercise Faith in Christ, turn towards him, and enter into a Covenant relationship with Him. After that, all is merited to Christ.
" and not reading what I am actually saying"
You´re right about that, i did overlook the entire statement " it comes to those who accept Christ as their Savior, and express their reliance on Him by striving to turn away from their sinful lifestyle, and entering into a Covenant Relationship with Christ." in the first post. I´m sorry about that.
Yes, i wouldn´t be stoned for saying that. I would be stoned if i said we are saved by grace alone and not by any works.
But, still when you put that covenant part in it, all you´re saying is – we are saved by grace but that grace isn´t an unmerited favor but it requires you to strive for it, to do all you can.
That is better illustrated in D&C 130:20-21
"There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."
So, you´re still saying that justification, even though is through the merits of Christ, comes also by your own merits, because of that law mentioned in D&C above. So God rewards you according to your works, through the merits of Christ. That´s not the gospel taught in Bible though.
You reverse the order. You have to do the works first to receive grace later. In the Bible you receive grace(which comes through faith) and then do the works.
"So you never, ever, desire to do the will of the Lord? You never desire to bring others to Christ, to care for those in need, and to uplift your fellow man? You never desire to be a better, more humble servant of the Lord? Those are things my heart desires."
No, i never desire to do the will of the Lord. All i desire is to live according to the flesh, fulfilling my own personal desires. That only change when i learned of the true gospel of Christ, where the law was used to convince me of my sins, and that all i deserved was to be thrown to hell, and after that i was taught the good news, that Christ took upon Himself the punishment for my sins and that through faith in Him i´m saved – and that i´m saved for good works, the works of God.
As Jesus says those who are forgiven much, love much. This is the true gospel, not the one that says you first have to obey to then receive mercy, forgiveness, etc.
"Salvation is not the same as Exaltation." I understand that, but exaltation to you is salvation to a Christian in the sense that salvation to a Christian is to be able to live in the presence of God for eternity.
"I do not believe our works save us"
Yes you do, otherwise you wouldn´t be obligated to make all those covenants you make.
"Christ went forth seeing to those in need. He fed them physically and spiritually. Those were works. He didn't do them to save himself – he did them out of love. Likewise with me. "
Christ didn´t need to save Himself. You do need salvation. You have to explain this better because it seemed to me as if you were comparing yourself to Jesus(almighty God).
Then do you acknowledge that before the merits of Christ, you have to have your own merits in the basis of "Faith in Christ, turn towards him, and enter into a Covenant relationship with Him"?
" and Covenants are tools given us by the Lord, wherein the Lord promises additional help and blessings as we commit to and fulfill our end. As we are obedient to our covenants, we are greater empowered to serve Him, and serve our fellow man. They are powerful blessings, which I have personally experienced in my life."
I don´t doubt you experienced those things in your life, but could you demonstrate that in the Bible, that God promises additional help by keeping different covenants?
Thank you for your kind response.
Here is the full quote in the manual:
"To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God [see Luke 11:42]. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it."
What I gather is Joseph's intent (both in the context of the lesson, and in the context of the original sermon) is to express that while we can do plenty of good things – if we're not doing what God has expressly asked us to do, it won't do us any good. It's the Naman principle: God told him through His prophet to wash to be healed. Naman wanted to do some other grand thing to express his faith – but it was pointed out that this simple thing was what the Lord required. Wash, and be made whole. Any other grand thing wouldn't do a lick of good.
God has asked us to love him, express faith in His Son, to follow him, and to enter into Covenant with him. when we do that, we are Saved, and we are freed from our sins.
In a temporal context, however (another scriptural use of the term salvation), the story of Noah shows that no matter what the people there would be doing, unless they obeyed the Lord's warning and specific commandment (trust the Lord, and Get in the Boat!) they would not experience temporal salvation (which in itself was tied to rejecting faith in the Lord). They didn't obey, and weren't 'saved'.
A key message of Joseph's (and the Church today) is obedience to the Lord to have temporal salvation from the Lord from key dangers in the world today.
In any case, the message is, trust the Lord, and you'll always be better off by doing as he asks when it is within our ability to do so.
–"this would be refering to whata worthy Mormon male can eventually attain to , namely becoming an Almighty God, and thus being adorned and worshipped as such ."–
Exaltation does refer to the privilege of being lifted up by God to be as He is, to a fullness of all of His attributes. To me, that is a key expression of the love and power of God – not just that he _can_ do that with His children, but he is willing to do so – and desires for all to achieve such, in tandem with their families – knowing that it doesn't take away from His Awesome power, but rather adds to an appreciation of it! To that note, though, I'm not aware of curriculum or GAs speaking about being 'adorned and worshiped as such', although it's certainly possible some have speculated as to that degree. Very little has been revealed as to the exact nature of what the full implications of Exaltation are, although there certainly have been many willing to speculate on what they believe it means!
"You have to explain this better because it seemed to me as if you were comparing yourself to Jesus"
Then you missed the intent. Our motivations to do works were questioned. I said that Christ did good works out of love. The fact he didn't need salvation is exactly my point – he did the works anyway, not to merit anything!
whereas we certainly need salvation, we still strive to follow His example. We, too, do things (works) out of love – recognizing that we are empowered by the Savior to do the most good.
If anyone does something for the sole reason to save them-self, they misunderstand, and are in error – and will not reap the fruits.
Élder Bednar talked in General Conference about striving to actually receive the Holy Ghost.
Steps to do that:
1) Sincerely desire to receive the Holy Ghost
2) Appropriately invite the Holy Ghost into our lives(this topic has a list of its own)
3) Faithfully obey God´s commandments.
Then, more towards the end he says: "Praying, studying, gathering, worshipping, serving and obeying are not isolated independent items on a lengthy gospel checklist of things to do(…) those are important elements in an overarching spiritual quest."
Even Elder Bednar recognizes that they have a lengthy gospel checklist of things to do(to receive their eternal reward).
"So, you´re still saying that justification, even though is through the merits of Christ, comes also by your own merits, because of that law mentioned in D&C above. So God rewards you according to your works, through the merits of Christ. That´s not the gospel taught in Bible though."
Obedience to the Law of Salvation (faith in Christ, repentance, entering into Covenant) begins with Faith which, as Paul wrote, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" – I was able to exercise Faith because the Lord placed me in a position to do so. He allowed me to come into favorable contact with the Message of Salvation, and provided the Spirit of the Lord to manifest the truth of it unto me. So while I chose to act on the knowledge the Lord gave me, I cannot even claim that excercising Faith was something I did 'on my own.' – I am saved by the Lord's grace, through faith – which itself was made possible by a Gift of God!
So:
1. The lord provides grace.
2. I respond to the grace.
3. Additional grace is poured out upon me
repeat
It all begins and ends with grace.
-"No, i never desire to do the will of the Lord" –
Well, then that is a difference between us. I do desire to serve my Master Jesus Christ, and to do his will. Although at times aspects of my will certainly do get in the way. but I strive to submit those aspects of my will to the Lord's will. It is my constant prayer, "not my will, but thine". – day by day, bit by bit, the Lord works in me to answer that prayer.
-""Salvation is not the same as Exaltation." I understand that, but exaltation to you is salvation to a Christian in the sense that salvation to a Christian is to be able to live in the presence of God for eternity." –
Salvation to a Mormon: To dwell in the presence of God for Eternity
Exaltation to a Mormon: To dwell in the presence of God for Eternity, and to be empowered by God through His great Love and Power to be Like Him, with all of his attributes.
Is that not the pattern the Lord expressed to Israel in the entirety of Deuteronomy?
Of course, you and I know that the terms changed upon the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, hence the writings we refer to as the New Covenant/New Testament of Jesus Christ.
This is the key message of Romans 6 – when we are a slave to sin, the wages of sin are death. But when we are slaves of Christ, He grants us eternal life. Not for the work we do under him, but by our truly recognizing and acknowledging Him as our Master.
As I stated above:
Paul wrote, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" – I was able to exercise Faith because the Lord placed me in a position to do so. He allowed me to come into favorable contact with the Message of Salvation, and provided the Spirit of the Lord to manifest the truth of it unto me. So while I chose to act on the knowledge the Lord gave me, I cannot even claim that excercising Faith was something I did 'on my own.' – I am saved by the Lord's grace, through faith – which itself was made possible by a Gift of God!
So:
1. The lord provides grace.
2. I respond to the grace.
3. Additional grace is poured out upon me
repeat
It all begins and ends with grace.
The context and topic was of experiencing the full benefits of receiving spiritual guidance through the Holy Ghost in this life. Not Eternal Salvation, if I remember correctly.
Ok, so help me out here. This is actually something i struggled with on my way out of Mormonism.
Even though you might not think so, i think i understand your position. All you´re saying is that you believe in Christ as taught by the church because of a personal spiritual confirmation that you had. That faith lead you to repent, be baptized and to accept and make covenants with God in order to be accepted into the Celestial Kingdom. It´s your faith in Christ that leads you to do good works, regardless if they are presented as commandments or not. It´s your faith that makes you accept the covenants that the church teaches god requires of you.
Everything you do is by faith. Not because you can save yourself, but because you believe that you actually have found the one true church that speaks in behalf of God, which is the only one that has authority to act in god´s name. You know that because you prayed about it and received an answer from god confirming it in your heart, such an answer didn´t come in the form of feelings but as a true spiritual experience different from anything you ever experienced before. Those things were confirmed again in your heart as you served in the church, and read the scriptures, etc.
We could fairly say your faith is based on a Jesus Christ as taught by Joseph Smith. My faith is based in Jesus Christ as based on the Bible alone. They are both very different.
Even though you can´t see it right now, your faith is based on your works, because they are required of you to enter the celestial kingdom. Even though your good works are brought through the merits of Jesus, when you fail and sin, depending on the sin you can lose all your promises which will revoke all the temple and other covenants you previously made.
Even if the sin isn´t as serious as mentioned above(such as watching pornography, drinking alcoholic beverages), you could still be forbidden of attending the temple and if you die during that time, there´s a great possibility you´ll be considered unfaithful to your covenants and you will have lost everything you did on this life – because of one mistake, one sin.
That´s one of the things God used to open my eyes to the truth. When things are going according to the plan you´re full of the Spirit and Christ works through you – but when you fall for whatever reason, you´re left in misery, shame, afraid of losing your soul, always unsure and feeling worried about your personal worthiness all the time, because you can never know when you have done enough – that besides having to hear every sunday how your going to lose your exaltation if you don´t do the laundry list of stuff required. And everyone knows that pretty much everyone just does the very minimum required, such things as home-teaching, teaching a lesson on sunday school, etc. with a few exceptions.
I would feel guilty and insecure all the time, and when i thought i was pulling it off i became prideful and thought myself more trustworthy than the others around me.
The Lord said, "by their fruits ye shall know them" – of course, in context, He´s talking about false prophets, but, the fruits of mormonism in my life weren´t the love of Christ at all. I was a mess of fear, emotions, insecurity, pride, etc.
Now i have peace in Christ, for the true gospel truly exposes me as i really am, and gives me the good news, that even though i´ll always be a sinner in this life, i can trust in Christ and His blood to make me perfect before God.
I can now truly say that i feel the peace of the Lord, and it is not as world gives(through the assurance of good works, of the law).
"Salvation to a Mormon: To dwell in the presence of God for Eternity "
What about general salvation? everyone will be rescued from death right? And be send to one of the three degrees of Glory.
I know there are degrees within degrees but you´re confusing me here – you´re talking only in the perspective of the Celestial Kingdom. When Christians talk about it, they´re referring to the whole scope of it, not one small fraction.
I also never heard of salvation being referred to that way you´re doing, usually mormons also refer to the whole scope, and not to degrees within degrees.
This is really getting cumbersome and confusing. I really never debated any mormon that presented things like that.
"Is that not the pattern the Lord expressed to Israel in the entirety of Deuteronomy?"
"Of course, you and I know that the terms changed upon the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, hence the writings we refer to as the New Covenant/New Testament of Jesus Christ. "
Yes, but you´re arbitrarily deciding what got discontinued from the law of Moses. God doesn´t deal with His children like that anymore, He gives His gift of salvation to all men without restriction – there are no special powers dictated if you obeyed a specific command, in the New testament. The gospel was opened to both Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free, etc.
"This is the key message of Romans 6 – when we are a slave to sin, the wages of sin are death. But when we are slaves of Christ, He grants us eternal life. Not for the work we do under him, but by our truly recognizing and acknowledging Him as our Master."
So, again, why then do you have to have those covenants that impose God´s new law upon you? If all that was required of you was to recognize and acknowledge Him as your master, why so many requirements, why do you have to sealed for eternity? Why do you pay tithing? etc, etc. And if you are sealed for eternity and don´t pay tithing and yet recognize and acknowledge Him as your master, so what is going to happen?
That whole thing is way too arbitrary, and you acknowledging Him depends solely on your works and your own merits, no matter how much you try to make it seem otherwise. I say this based on you own scripture that make it clear that, for you to receive anything from god you have to be worthy, and worthiness comes through obedience – specially because your prophets can make up any new law they want whenever they choose to.
D&C 138:58:
"The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,"
You´re trying to twist doctrine around to make it look like it all depends on Christ while your scriptures are all too clear that the works of Christ are only enabled to be in effect through the person´s obedience.
"I also never heard of salvation being referred to that way you´re doing, usually mormons also refer to the whole scope, and not to degrees within degrees."
Mainly, because Mormons are not familiar with how Evangelicals use the terminology. I wasn't raised Mormon – I was raised Evangelical. Joined the LDS Church when I was 22 in college. I've become quite familiar with both worlds.
Because the words used often mean different things, I'm expressing the ideas behind the words. Too often the words are compared, when the substance of what each means behind them are so different. It just leads to shouting matches that get nowhere. My intention is understanding of our teachings and beliefs, and what we mean by the lingo. Not to argue whether we're right or wrong. I'm writing to clarify what we do believe – not whether you need to accept it as truth or not.
General Salvation is a termed used by Mormons to refer to all being eventually resurrected ("For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.") it is not equivalent to the Celestial Kingdom, or dwelling with God. It's not a useful term to use in interfaith dialogue because of the connotations of the word Salvation.
The 'whole scope of it' by what EVs mean by heaven is the Celestial Kingdom. You might refer to the other degrees as being more equivalent to (admittedly more pleasant) degrees of hell to get the comparison closer, I guess. Closer, but by no means perfect at all.
"whereas we certainly need salvation, we still strive to follow His example. We, too, do things (works) out of love"
You know how we can actually test that? If people in your church actually do things out of love – just tell them that the commandments are no longer requirements to enter into the highest degree of Glory in the celestial kingdom – that they can keep them if they want to, but if they don´t want to, it´s going to be okay anyways. Then come back here and tell us how many people are still using their garments, how many people keep on going to the temple, or attending church, serving in their callings, serving others, etc.
Oh, c´mon – so Eternal Salvation and guidance of the Holy Ghost are no longer mutually dependent? Can you receive eternal salvation without guidance through the Holy Ghost?
Give me a break.
Through rejecting the Holy Ghost and Christ one can fall from grace even after they have supposedly "accepted" Christ
JTanner, is you post a reply to what? didn´t get it…
what you are teaching…it is the devils doctrine that has puts into the hearts of the children of men.
Many teach they can live what ever life they want and Christ will save them regardless. This is not the life that Jesus would have you live, this is not how Jesus instructed his disciples to live.
Reading the sermon on the mount will allow you to see clearly the type of life that Jesus expects his true followers to live.
dltayman, thanks for the reply. I think your answer to the quote I referenced in Church
curriculum was a little thin. He was 'nt talking about doing some "simple thing" as a
requirement to receive salvation ( like you said God asked Naman to do) but he
said that you must do "everything" that He has commanded. What has God commanded?
What are His commandments? A Mormon Apostle says, " Those things which men are
directed to do to attain peace in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come are
collectively called the commandments. They are the laws, ordinances, covenants,
contracts, statutes, judgements, decrees, revelations, and requirements which come
to man from God. " [ Mormon Doctrine, p 149 ].
cont.
That is how a person get's "saved" ( receives salvation/eternal life ) in Mormomism ?
Before I proceed I need to say that the way you are using terms like " merit" , "grace"
"salvation" and others, in your dialogue with f-melo sounds to me like you're trying a
little to hard to sound more like we want to hear rather than what Mormon Gen Author-
ities have taught through the years. Now I say this more with curiosity behind it rather
than being judgemental. I noticed a tad bit of this in your reply to me concerning your
doctrine of exaltation. You said that this term refers to the privlege of being , "lifted up"
to a fullness of all of God's attributes. If God is an Almighty God, then if you gain all
His attributes does'nt that say you will be an Almighty God also ? Why did'nt you just
say so then ? I think it would benefit the conversation.
cont. ( I wish I could figure out how my post sentences turn out that srange ! )
You stated that you're not aware of church ciurriculum stating this directly. Just
as you chose not to tell me in a direct way that you can attain to the status of
being an Almighty God like your HF , so too your curriculum choses to not take
a direct approach. Which brings to the fact that if you become exalted like your
HF, then you'll likewise be worshipped by your sons and daughters just as you
render this to Him now. Perhaps though this is'nt what you personally believe,
but I can only go by what Mormon prophets and apostles have taught as they
are the authority . This being the case I also have to politely reject the " plan of
salvation " as preached by said leaders.
ww
"We don't teach works to save."
Seriously! What religion are you talking about? Neo-mormonism?
lol, now here is a true follower of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
-"That´s one of the things God used to open my eyes to the truth. When things are going according to the plan you´re full of the Spirit and Christ works through you – but when you fall for whatever reason, you´re left in misery, shame, afraid of losing your soul, always unsure and feeling worried about your personal worthiness all the time, because you can never know when you have done enough —
I'm sorry you had such an experience. A full understanding of the Restored Gospel, and the power of Christ's covenants (not shattered when you make a mistake, but when you turn completely away from them and outright reject them) brings Hope, and increases Faith.
I recognize there are members who are prideful, who do not understand, and who do present things like this. Unfortunately, I've seen some of them arguing over on sites like this. I think it's highly unfortunate. In the past, there certainly were periods where GAs emphasized works over-proportionately.
You may disagree with our biblical interpretation – and that's fine – but as a daily student of the Bible, as one who loves and studies the New Testament deeply, I find the Jesus Christ, Son of God, Creator, Savior and Redeemer found there to be the same one expressed in the Book of Mormon and the other revelations of the Restoration. I'm not here to fight, so I won't get into that discussion here.
I too, feel the peace of the Lord. And constantly seek to better know His will, so that I can be a more effective servant of Him.
I don't doubt the same of you.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder–have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b
"A full understanding of the Restored Gospel, and the power of Christ's covenants (not shattered when you make a mistake, but when you turn completely away from them and outright reject them) brings Hope, and increases Faith. "
Really, if you break the law of chastity and get excommunicated, how then are not your covenants shattered?
I got to tell you, you must start teaching to the leaders the full understanding of the gospel – because that´s not what i´ve seen at all. The whole love atmosphere in the church you talk about is fake for the most part – just let someone disagree with the leaders to see what love really means.
One time i refused to accept a calling to work in the stake, and the high priest interviewing me said something like this "you know, we never know what will happen to us to morrow, take for example, the so and so member, he, on the way home was murdered, so you´ll never know"
The guy was using all the methods he knew to try to make me change my mind – and i´ve seen stuff like this happening to other people too. Love in the mormon church only exists if you do what you´re supposed to do without causing trouble. They are afraid of losing authority.
" I find the Jesus Christ, Son of God, Creator, Savior and Redeemer found there to be the same one expressed in the Book of Mormon and the other revelations of the Restoration."
Where in the Bible it says that Christ is the spirit-brother of Satan? And that he was only chosen as our savior because he was more intelligent than us all, and that Satan came on second? Where does it say in the Bible that Christ is the literal son of God conceived through a sexual intercourse between god the father and Mary?
"I too, feel the peace of the Lord. And constantly seek to better know His will"
I already know His entire will for me, concerning my salvation, because He told me all in His Word – God is unchangeable and He can´t deny Himself.
Question – if the Bible has the FULNESS of the gospel, why is the Book of Mormon necessary? and if the Book of Mormon has the FULNESS of the gospel, why does your god keep on adding to the FULNESS over and over again in D&C and modern revelation and prophets. I always thought FULNESS meant FULNESS, unless there is such a thing as a 1/4 of FULNESS, or little FULNESS, etc.?
"Many teach they can live what ever life they want and Christ will save them regardless."
See, Paul is clear that God doesn´t save us so that we can freely sin, and Christ was clear that every tree that doesn´t produce good fruit will be burned.
How does a tree produce good fruit?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Does that mean we can stop sinning?
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We are saved by grace through faith, and not by the works of the law, because through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
btw, for the mormons reading this, the priesthood in the book of Hebrews is referring to a office that can offer sacrifice for sins – it´s not talking about a bunch of men holding administrative positions in an organization you call church, let alone of men that hold some special power required for men to become gods.