This is the Christian message of how sinful man is graciously and mercifully reconciled to God. How well does this line up with the messages presented last weekend at the LDS General Conference?
“From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
"Neo-mormonism" – LOL!!!!!
Excellent and thorough post!
Thats why i keep asking dltayman, that if every work they do, they do because of faith – then why is there a need of temple covenants that force those upon the members – to the point the leaders to make people serve in their callings, they require of them that they keep those covenants. How is that being saved by grace through faith?
All he said is that those covenants give them special powers… but we here know that´s not true at all.
f-melo, you're doing a great job of "giving an answer of the hope that lives within
you " [1Pt 3:15 ] in your replies to dltayman. Here's some of the testimony of
another former Mormon, Jac Redford, " Mormonism was ill equipped to handle the
powerful, visceral challenge of my growing anxiety. After all, my feelings were supposed
to be the medium through which I would receive personal revelation, the manifestation
of God's will in my life…..What was I to make of the continuing sense of emptiness I felt?
In the rigid terms of my faith, I could only conclude that I must have failed in some
significant way and grieved the Holy Ghost. The diagnosis was unworthiness and the
prescription was to try harder. Consequently, Mormonism not only failed to assuage
my pain and answer the central nagging questions of my life, but it proved further
grist for despair in my failure to measure up."
cont. " In contrast to our Bishop's warning, we found that there is ' life after
Mormonism ' , abundant, joyful life in the country of grace, without the frowning
thunderhead of a bean-counting God lurking over the horizon. I know there
are LDS all over the world who have lost faith in their church, yet feel resigned
unable to move, because they are afraid that if Mormonism is'nt true, then
nothing is. I wish they could know about the grace LeAnn and I have found in
Jesus. I too, was afraid that nothing could ever replace the strong ties that
once held me to the faith of my fathers—until I met Him.He is the Way , the
Truth, and the Life…"
"Really, if you break the law of chastity and get excommunicated, how then are not your covenants shattered? "
Breaking the Law of Chastity does not lead to auto excommunication. As a stake High Councilor, I've participated in Church Disciplinary councils. And the atmosphere of Love there wa something hard to express. The discussion had was all about how to best help the individual. In the three cases where such a case was brought up (including adultery), the final result was NOT excommunication, because it as determined that it would not best help the individual, nor their marriage. That they still desired to build their marriage, and still desired to serve the Lord.Their wives were fully supportive of this.
Excommunication generally comes to those who are truly unrepentant, or those who serve in a high profile position whose actions – i fwould adversely affect the Church membership on a large scale. Or in cases involving child molestation, rape, etc.
I can only speak from personal experience. But my experience shows a great outpouring of love, and a desire to help the individual get back on he right track, and back to feeling the peace of Christ.
–"One time i refused to accept a calling to work in the stake, and the high priest interviewing me said something like this "you know, we never know what will happen to us to morrow, take for example, the so and so member, he, on the way home was murdered, so you´ll never know"
The guy was using all the methods he knew to try to make me change my mind – and i´ve seen stuff like this happening to other people too. Love in the mormon church only exists if you do what you´re supposed to do without causing trouble. They are afraid of losing authority. –"
That is the completely opposite of how we're taught to extend callings. I'm sorry you had a rotten experience. Your High Councilor seems to have been completely out of line. I've had individuals refuse callings. You know what we do, and I have done? Express love, and understanding of their situation, respect for their decision, and see if there's anything you can do for them.
D&C 121:
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—"
–"And that he was only chosen as our savior because he was more intelligent than us all, and that Satan came on second? Where does it say in the Bible that Christ is the literal son of God conceived through a sexual intercourse between god the father and Mary? –"
None of those concepts are taught in our scriptures, or are part of the revelations of the Restoration. I few people expressing their opinions on the matter notwithstanding. I don't know anyone who teaches that Christ was chosen "ONLY" because he was more intelligent. The concept is not in the scriptures.
–"I already know His entire will for me, concerning my salvation, because He told me all in His Word – God is unchangeable and He can´t deny Himself."–
Then have you stopped reading your Bible? I know that everytime I read the scriptures, I gain greater insight into the Lord, and have an increased desire to place my life more in line with the Lord, and to understand more clearly individual and personal things I could be doing to be of greater benefit to my fellow man – all of which are increased understandings of aspects of the Lord's Will for my life.
If you already have a perfect knowledge of the Lord's will and plan in all its details, why do you continue to read the Bible? Do you not learn anything any more? If you do learn more, what do you learn? Is it more than just a clearer familiarity with names, places, and events mentioned?
That's actually a principle in our scriptures:
D&C 58:
For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant
Are there people who hold membership in the Church that are trying to earn their salvation, people who are involved in gospel activities purely for selfish reasons, grumble the whole way, and use it as a checklist? Sure. They are wrong, and do not understand the scriptures, not the teachings of the prophets. They will not be profited. See Moroni 7 for a discussion of this principle.
I know many, many saints who quietly and cheerfully do wonderful Christlike service that is not specifically asked, required, or commanded of them. They do it out of love.
If one does not hearken to the voice of the Spirit, it will be much harder to keep a softened hard, and to avoid evil and danger.
When we do this, the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost, when yielded to, is what assists in the refining process, where evil desires begin to be rooted out of our system, so that when we arrive in God's presence, we will be not just welcomed there through our Covenant with Christ, but prepared within to be there, and truly feel at home.
It is quite possible to enter into the presence of God and be forgiven of our sins (Justified), and have not yielded ourselves to the Lord to allow him to fully root out our evil desires (and be made holy – Sanctified). Yielding to the Spirit allows that sanctification to take place. The Lord does not change our desires against our will. As we yield to him, and permit him, we allow him to work within us.
"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Mosiah 3:19
I believe it is certainly possible for individuals to be welcomed into God's presence, but then, due to their not having fully strived to submit to His will, "cannot abide" His presence.
The Lord only takes away those things we give him. He will not take away those things we cling to, and refuse to place before his feet. That includes our desires, priorities, addictions, habits, and other shortcomings.
However, if we give him our all, he will take it all away through His Holy Spirit. We will truly be a New Creature – because we have let Him transform us.
–"Before I proceed I need to say that the way you are using terms like " merit" , "grace"
"salvation" and others, in your dialogue with f-melo sounds to me like you're trying a
little to hard to sound more like we want to hear rather than what Mormon Gen Author-
ities have taught through the years. Now I say this more with curiosity behind it rather
than being judgemental. "–
That's because you're not used to dialoguing with a Mormon who understands what Evangelicals mean with their terminology.
Most so-called debates that go on places like here between EV's and Mormons are usually simply a volly of insults and misunderstandings flying back and forth, with 'hits', and their back-up posses hooting and hollering and mocking the other side.
It gets nowhere, because nobody is understand what the other is saying. We have each grown to have such different ideas behind the words we use, that while it appears you're debating the same idea, you're really not.
I'm attempting to express the best I can the idea – not just the word – that we mean when we talk amongst each other. When I say certain phrases or words around other Mormons, the idea they'd get in their mind as to what I meant is different than someone who has ingrained a completely different tradition and meaning associated with those words.
So in interfaith dialogue, those not familiar with what the other means in their idea will just keep yapping against the words used, according to their own definition. It's useless contention that doesn't help anyone grow closer to Christ.
I'm attempting to make sure we're comparing apples to apples. And that's what you're not used to – many here are used to comparing EV Salvation to Mormon Exaltation (which is admittedly often referred to in LDS parlance as a form of 'Salvation' – but in context, it is understood what concept is meant while it's being discussed).
I've said a few other times before, I'm not going to comment here to debate biblical interpretation, or play apologetics with random quotes from GAs of the past.
If you want to know what I believe, and why, I'll tell you. I'll correct blatant misconceptions when I believe they are presented in honesty, and not as attempted "Gotcha!" moments.
I won't judge you, I won't condemn you, I won't mock you. To ask the same in response, I think, is more than reasonable terms for a congenial discussion about things which are very important, personal, and sacred to all of us.
I must remind the Christians here that discussing "grace" with a Mormon, is a total waste of time. Mormonism is not Christianity so the concept of grace within Christianity is foreign to a Mormon's experience. This is a religion after all that teaches its followers that through a process of works they can become gods ruling over their own planetary system. They will enjoy endless Celestial sex with their goddess wives and procreate spirit children who will obtain human bodies, occupy those planets and pray to and adore the Mormon who did the appropriate amount of work to become a god.
Now this is pretty weird stuff and, as is quite evident, has no relationship to Christianity. So I can have a discussion with a Christian regarding grace and we have some basis for our interaction. There is no such basis with a Mormon and therefore the interaction is futile.
Let's also remember that in Mormonism we are dealing with an entire different god/gods program. Jesus is not the same person in Mormonism being the spirit offspring of the Mormon god, of this planet, and his goddess wife-one of them. In Mormonism the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are not one in the same, the former being a god that became one by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism by accomplishing the task without ever having a body or a contingent of wives. The latter is, in Mormonism, a force something like electricity.
Now knowing all of this, doesn't it seem kind of ridiculous to attempt a conversation about grace with a Mormon?
I'm waiting to see the LDS reply to what I posted.
Jtanner said
Where do you get the idea that people can call on the name of Jesus, than live how ever they want and still be saved?
The Bible does not teach that. I hear this kind of stuff from Atheists all the time, They tell me God cannot be real and if He is He is extremely cruel because friends or family that they claim were loving and kind are in Hell for not believing in Jesus, Yet people like Hitler are in heaven despite killing over 6 million people, simply because they have heard Hitler supposedly believe in Jesus.
First off, The devil has entrance into the throne room of God, and the demons believe, But they are not saved. Then Jesus said, Many will say to Him on the day of Judgment, Lord, Lord, did we not Cast out demons in your Name? Did we not do good WORKS in your name? Did we not perform miracles in your Name?
Jesus replies to them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, Depart from me your workers of evil.
Notice the people did GOOD WORKS in the NAME of Jesus, And according to Jesus, they never knew Him and are not saved. So that shows works cannot save and simply saying you know Jesus does not save. It's more a matter of, does Jesus KNOW YOU.
Also dltyman, Still waiting to hear from you on what I said. I keep reminding people because I know people are busy, But I also know the track record of Mormons running away and dodging questions. I keep pointing it out mainly to prove to the seekers that might want to convert to LDS, that you guys come up short on honest answers and tend to run away more than anything.
"If one does not hearken to the voice of the Spirit, it will be much harder to keep a softened hard"
Of course – because your intellect will kick in and start questioning the entire religion. Questioning the truthfulness of the church isn´t spirit-friendly.
"When we do this"
Oh, i remember my days of striving for the spirit – it took much, much concentration. I hated when after all that concentration a car drove by with loud music that would drive the spirit away. Or someone would turn on the tv, and the spirit would leave, and i wouldn´t feel that feeling of peace anymore.
It was hell to try to keep that spirit with me – it would leave so fast, i at times thought i would have to live an isolated life in order to keep it with me at all times. When it left, it left me with deep depression, sadness, etc. even though it wasn´t my fault but the fault of others.
Have you ever heard of an ancient mystic monastic practice called Lectio Divina. I was reading about that a while ago, and i was absolutely amazed how similar this practice is to what the church teaches. In Lectio Divina you say a prayer which objective is for you to experience the presence of god. For that to be accomplished you need to be in a quiet, isolated place. Then you choose a passage of scripture, no to analyze it or to understand its meaning, just as means of concentration. From there on some people use scripture as a mantra, and others just meditate until they feel the presence of god.
Amazing how similar it is – what i called "praying to receive an answer from god" was actually a mystical practice! That answered a lot of my doubts about that whole process.
It´s also interesting to note, that the scripture mormons use to invite people to read and pray about the book of mormon, Moroni 10:3-5 talks about knowing the truth through the Holy Ghost, but guess what – IT NEVER SPECIFIES IT BY SAYING THAT ANSWER COMES THROUGH SUBJECTIVE FEELINGS!
Does anyone know when that knowing through subjective feelings became the norm in the church?
Moroni 10:3-7
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
(keep on reading – moroni says nothing of subjective feelings of peace and joy)
1.“First off Mormonism teaches (We are saved by grace PLUS WORKS, After all we can do) Did you notice the word PLUS. It grace PLUS works.”
No. The scriptures teach that even after all we can do, it is grace that saves us – not those works. In fact, the scriptures explain the meaning of that verse when it makes clear that the only things ‘we can do’ prior to receiving Salvation that have any salvific benefit are expressing Faith in Jesus Christ, responding to that faith by turning towards Him (repentance), and trusting Christ to the extent you are willing to enter into Covenant with Him. And we are able to express Faith due to the Grace of God to begin with! It is a key theme in the Book of Mormon that we cannot take any credit for our own Salvation.
It is, however, a sign of our devotion and dedication to emulate the savior, and to obey him. If one is not actively serving the Lord, that ones does not truly have faith. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by myworks.” James 2:18.
2.“Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.”
In context, it teaches there is no Exaltation for those who have entered into Sacred Covenants, have a solid testimony of the Gospel, and then against this light and knowledge choose to commit murder.
An example of the difference: The Book of Mormon contains a powerful account of a whole people who regularly killed and murdered before they received the Gospel. Afterwards, they all buried their swords as a sign and token of the covenant that they had truly changed. It was later made clear and stated that that these individuals would have Eternal Life.
3.“Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.”
Shooting in self defense at people who have mobbed up and cornered you for the express purpose of murdering you is not Murder by any definition I’ve ever heard expressed.
4.“Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. “
No, the Temple Ordinances (Initiatories, Endowment, Sealing) pertain to Exaltation, not Salvation.
" This is a religion after all that teaches its followers that through a process of works they can become gods ruling over their own planetary system. They will enjoy endless Celestial sex with their goddess wives and procreate spirit children who will obtain human bodies, occupy those planets and pray to and adore the Mormon who did the appropriate amount of work to become a god. "
Good to know you've watched The Godmakers. Let me know when you're interested in understanding what we actually teach and believe. Otherwise, I have no interest in interacting with you.
"In Mormonism the Holy Ghost [is] a god that became one by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism by accomplishing the task without ever having a body or a contingent of wives."
I've never, ever, ever, ever seen this taught or believed.
Exodus 20:16, " Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
"When no one else in the world needs assistance, or a servant of the Lord blessing their lives. Once you see those conditions, then would be a good time to re-raise the question."
Ok, if that´s the case your church has to change focus. Last time i checked, the church wasn´t spending all of its money on helping the poor (or assisting anyone for that matter)- it was spending 8 billion dollars on a Mall in SLC!!! 100M on a hotel resort on Hawaii, restaurants, etc. etc. etc.
Every service the church provides comes from donations – not one dime comes from its pocket.
And don´t come talking about that the church is the first to show up when there are catastrophes in the world – the amount of money the church spends in disaster aid is nothing compared to its businesses.
You should go to SLC tell your apostles they have lost focus…
BTW, did anybody notice there was no financial report on GC? Or did i miss it?
1. "Last time i checked, the church wasn´t spending all of its money on helping the poor – it was spending 8 billion dollars on a Mall in SLC!!! 100M on a hotel resort on Hawaii, restaurants, etc. etc. etc. "
Re-read the parable of the Talents, and see how the Lord feels about investing money, and how that relates to stewardship of funds. See Matthew 25 – especially vv. 24-29.
2. "And don´t come talking about that the church is the first to show up when there are catastrophes in the world – the amount of money the church spends in disaster aid is nothing compared to its businesses. "
You actually have no idea. At all.
3. "BTW, did anybody notice there was no financial report on GC? Or did i miss it?"
The auditing report is given at the Annual Conference in April, not the semi-annual conference in October. – http://bit.ly/a9i1f5
"Breaking the Law of Chastity does not lead to auto excommunication."
I´m not talking about the "ifs" or the "hows" – i was talking about when it actually happens, because it does happen. About 5- 10 years ago people would be excommunicated easily, but now, for some reason things changed, and it takes more for a person to be kicked out.
"That is the completely opposite of how we're taught to extend callings."
Sure, but practice differs from theory – but i know that depends on the person, you can´t generalize. BTW, that wasn´t just my experience though – i´ve seen that kind of stuff happening to different leaders, because many leaders just can´t deal with people not bowing down to their authority.
"I few people expressing their opinions on the matter notwithstanding. I don't know anyone who teaches that Christ was chosen "ONLY" because he was more intelligent. The concept is not in the scriptures. "
A few people expressing their opinions on the matter??????????? uhahuauhahuuha – classic.
Those few people must have been insignificant – Oh, wait, it was Brigham Young. There was also Bruce R. McConkie… those guys weren´t prophets or apostles, they didn´t have the spirit of revelation or the keys of prophecy, right? Pffffff – just their opinions, yeah right!
Brigham Young actually makes a strong case for that, he was the one who helped me better understand the doctrine of the trinity(1 god manifested in 3 persons), ironicallt. He said, if Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost he should have been called the son of the Holy Ghost and not the Son of God(because in mormonism they are 3 distinct beings). Amazing, huh – how your doctrine is self-defeating?!
"I don't know anyone who teaches that Christ was chosen "ONLY" because he was more intelligent."
Its not in your scriptures? Have you ever read the Book of Abraham? But you are right, there are more stuff besides intelligence. Alma 13:3 gives more items:
(…)"on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great ffaith, are called with a holy calling,"
"Then have you stopped reading your Bible? I know that everytime I read the scriptures, I gain greater insight into the Lord"
No i haven´t stopped – but the message doesn´t change, i don´t have to look further to find more things i have to do to be exalted, it is all plainly written. I do find greater insight as well though – but that doesn´t mean i already don´t know the full will of the Lord concerning salvation!
"Do you not learn anything any more? If you do learn more, what do you learn?"
Yes i do learn more about Christ, about His teachings, the admonition of the apostles, etc. – but nothing more about salvation since the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple, and it is plainly laid out for everyone to see.
Your gospel is extremely cumbersome and complicated – you´ve got to keep digging and digging to find new ways to be closer to god – but, see, simple means simple, and the gospel presented in the Bible is simple.
I also study the Bible to strengthen my faith because faith comes through the reading and hearing of the Word!
"If you want to know what I believe, and why, I'll tell you. I'll correct blatant misconceptions when I believe they are presented in honesty, and not as attempted "Gotcha!" moments. "
Here´s the problem with that – every mormon has his different ways of understanding his doctrine.
There´s only meaning in discussing what you believe if what you believe is official mormon doctrine – otherwise this whole thing is pointless… you believe your own doctrine. We here can´t know every single mormon´s particular point of view.
"So in interfaith dialogue, those not familiar with what the other means in their idea will just keep yapping against the words used, according to their own definition. "
That also doesn´t mean that you get to redefine the terms used traditionally by the Christian community in general or to redefine mormon terms to fit where they don´t belong.
Usually the mormons i debate try to prove through the scriptures that God requires works for salvation in the way the church teaches – but you gave a little twist to that… saying that´s all faith and grace(plus covenants), as we´ve been discussing so far.
Alright – here´s how you´re redefining the meaning of grace, as found in the Bible:
"And we are able to express Faith due to the Grace of God to begin with"
Grace = unmerited favor. You´re are saying that grace is an ENABLER, something that god gives us to become able to respond to his promptings. The Bible never uses grace in that manner at all – it always uses grace as the means of salvation, not through works or covenants, but through faith in Christ alone.
"No. The scriptures teach that even after all we can do, it is grace that saves us – not those works. In fact, the scriptures explain the meaning of that verse when it makes clear that the only things ‘we can do’ prior to receiving Salvation that have any salvific benefit are expressing Faith in Jesus Christ, responding to that faith by turning towards Him (repentance), and trusting Christ to the extent you are willing to enter into Covenant with Him."
Trusting Christ to the extent you are willing to enter into Covenant with Him = WORKS!!! Those covenants are required works one must do to receive the "blessings" of eternal life.
So, my friend, yes, you´re teaching a grace PLUS works salvation. God might enable you through grace so that you can exercise faith – but if that was enough(as the Bible teaches) there would be no need for covenants that force you to submit to certain requirements in order to QUALIFY, or to MAKE ONE WORTHY, of becoming am exalted being and living forever with your family.
If we believed the same doctrine as taught in the Bible, you wouldn´t need to go to that temple of yours.
"No, the Temple Ordinances (Initiatories, Endowment, Sealing) pertain to Exaltation, not Salvation."
you said "Salvation to a Mormon: To dwell in the presence of God for Eternity "
I´m trying to remember here(honestly) – you can live in the presence of god as a servant angel and not be exalted, right? Exalted are only the ones who can procreate for enternity?
If i don´t go to the temple and get my endowments, could i still live in the presence of god as an angel?
dltayman, I again would agree with you on how a dialogue between Mormons
and non-Mormons could be better facilitated by both groups being better listeners.
I try to ask questions., I hope in a respectful manner. When I stated that worthy
Mormon males can attain to become an Almighty God, you really did not directly
answer that. I found that interesting given the fact that not only is it taught by
your GA's but there has even been one knowlegable Mormon who blogs here
that admitted it to me. I would at least think you would find it constructive when
your prophets and apostles are referenced as the authority in doctrine. I would
be remiss if I took your opinion as the authority in Mormon doctrine.
""In Mormonism the Holy Ghost [is] a god that became one by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism by accomplishing the task without ever having a body or a contingent of wives."
I've never, ever, ever, ever seen this taught or believed. "
Falcon is absolutely right. If you read John 1:1-3:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Mormonism teaches that Jehova(jesus) is the God of the old testament. It also teaches that in the mormon temple, that Jesus and Adam, as spirits, acted as gods to create the earth.
That´s one of the things i never understood as a mormon – how come Jesus was God as a spirit-child and still had to become an exalted being by getting a physical body… that was weird.
The mormon church also teaches that the Holy Spirit is also a god even though he hasn´t a body of flesh and bones.
So, you´re the liar here.
Falcon, you´re absolutely right!
I´m doing it for three reasons: 1 – to defend the faith, in a way, you know… 2 – My family is still all mormon and these debates give me a lot of insight, and put my mind to work, so that i can think of better ways of talking to them about how they are being deceived. 3 – if someone is confused about mormonism and stops by this blog, they will be able to see the clear difference between the two religions, and we might answer some of their personal questions unintentionally.(that was actually how i found this blog, when i was on my way out of mormonism, and i was pretty much out already, but still figuring out what to believe).
dltayman,
I see your very quick to reply to Falcon and say, you watched the God makers, so I wont bother talking with you, not until your really interested in what we believe. Yet I see your slow to respond to me and the SCRIPTURE and Quotes from your PROPHETS AND PRESIDENTS and show me where I am wrong. Why is that?
cont. Are you infering that I condemed or mocked you ? I hope you don't
feel that way as it was not my intention. In the future could you be direct
in your reply about your ultimate attainment in the hereafter ? Please
remember that in the end that all the good deeds done "in Jesus name" will
not avail anyone much personally if they worship the wrong God.
Thanks for your time.
ww
"The auditing report is given at the Annual Conference in April, not the semi-annual conference in October."
Thank you, i never knew that.
"Re-read the parable of the Talents, and see how the Lord feels about investing money"
Oh my goodness. Is that what Christ was? A financial adviser? LOL!
"You actually have no idea. At all."
Yes i do, one of my dad´s ex-mission companions worked in the welfare department of the church. He never gave me any numbers but i got the whole tour of the facilities, and i do know that they prefer to employ immigrants(they don´t have to pay much – and they give some assistance, i forgot what it was)
And the perpetual fund of education is all donation, everyone knows that. Etc., etc., etc.
"Re-read the parable of the Talents, and see how the Lord feels about investing money"
BTW, that parable in the mormon church is always interpreted as talking about real talents, you know, like playing the piano, being a good speaker, a good listener, etc.
It is usually used to explain how god expects us to develop those god-given talents, i´ve never seen it used as financial advice.
"So, you´re the liar here."
…huh?
Please cite a credible reference that demonstrates that we teach that the Holy Ghost 'became [a god] by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism'
"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things"
That´s one huge contradiction.
So why does your god have your GA´s make manuals that dictates every single thing people must do in their callings, how to conduct meetings, interviews, etc?
and why does your god command people even on what underwear they must wear, what they can or cannot eat, what day to take the sacrament, etc.? There´s very little your god doesn´t command – it comes very short of all things.
What an absurd of a contradiction!
D&C 132:17
For these angels did not abide my law [pertaining to ordinances and covenants of exaltation] ; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
"Are there people who hold membership in the Church that are trying to earn their salvation,"
So then tell them to stop!!! and stop doing it yourself!
Now, that´s a great idea!
Hi falcon
ww
1. "Oh my goodness. Is that what Christ was? A financial adviser? LOL! "
Christ taught principles that can be used in many areas of our life, and this parable in particular in regards to any and all resources the Lord allows us to have.
2. "and i do know that they prefer to employ immigrants(they don´t have to pay much – and they give some assistance, i forgot what it was) "
Immigrants, those who do not speak English, those with disabilities, and those otherwise who have a difficult time making it, are generally otherwise unemployable. The Church gives these individuals the benefits of learning a trade, and to make income to support their families through work opportunities. Leaders of nations around the world have been amazingly surprised and impressed by the way Welfare Square is run, and by how much good is done. The Church often takes a loss on the employees themselves at the beginning, but then the individuals go on to be wonderful participants in society. It's a fantastic and beautiful thing.
Welfare Square is just one small aspect of the welfare the Church participates in. It certainly doesn't publicize all that it does.
–"I don't know anyone who teaches that Christ was chosen "ONLY" because he was more intelligent."
Its not in your scriptures? Have you ever read the Book of Abraham? But you are right, there are more stuff besides intelligence. Alma 13:3 gives more items: —
Please cite where it is taught that "Christ was chosen ONLY because he was more intelligent." – A statement that denotes a fulness of Intelligence as an attribute of Christ (such as that in Abraham 3 you appear to be referencing) to teach a principles doesn't count.
Alma 13 speaks generally of all those foreordained to sacred priesthood callings, and does not support your claim.
"So then tell them to stop!!!"
Believe it or not, there are arrogant, obstinate , willfully ignorant people who refuse to listen to clear declarations in our Church just as much as there are in yours.
And just as much as we clearly point out that certain accusations of our beliefs are not true, there will still be plenty here who scream and moan and shout out to 'expose' Mormon beliefs that do not have any place in our Church.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
That, too, is a principle of the Gospel.
"Trusting Christ to the extent you are willing to enter into Covenant with Him = WORKS!!! "
So it is your position that trusting Christ to the extent that you are willing to formally promise Him that you will serve him and consecrate your life to him is not something the Lord asks of us?
Once again showing that the BOM is obviously a fraud. New Covenant ideas ripped from the New Testament portion of the Bible, which Joseph Smith possessed. Anachronism abounds throughout the "Nephis" showing them to be of 18th century origin.
dltayman, it sounds as if you are an LDS Calvinist.
Looking at your explanation and list it sounds very close to the gospel of Jesus, salvation by grace through faith purchased by Jesus death on the cross for our sins – I have just a few differences to point out:
Your point "2. I respond to the grace." A lot can be packed into that phrase. What constitutes "responding" – baptism as a work of righteousness or obedience rather than a means of grace received from the Lord? Is this included in responding? Fulfilling temple endowments – is this included in responding? As a matter of fact, a person could pack into "respond" just about anything they like – not drinking coffee, fulfilling your tithe, not eating meat in winter, a strict vegetarian diet, participating in polygamy, not taking blood transfusions, no lard in your food, abstaining from alcohol, wearing long dresses and no make-up, wearing spiritual underwear, serving in the military, refusing military service, etc. etc. And there are a limitless number of "religious" people who will gladly bind you up in rule after rule. Then it's all about you and responding, rather than Jesus on the cross for your sins. The one true God became flesh and gave His life in a bloody mess for us. He brings us to the foot of that cross every time we have communion – the bread and the wine, his body and blood given for us. We do not reach out and grab Him through faith, He reaches down and gives us faith in Him. It is all about Jesus and nothing about us. He gave His life, He covers us with His blood, He grants mercy, forgiveness of sins, faith.
My second point is that if you believe in a multiplicity of gods and not the one true God as the Scripture declares, you are by definition lost. What you believe about grace, responding, etc. etc. is meaningless if you are trusting in a non-existent god. A mere "exalted" man cannot save anyone. If your god is not God from all eternity, the God who holds all creation together – and is merely the result of creation or some "higher than god" cosmic order you have the wrong god. This false god will lead you directly away from the one true God. Repent and forsake all false gods – trust in Christ alone for your salvation.
1. "Are you infering that I condemed or mocked you ?"
No. You have been very respectful. I can't speak for others here, though.
2. "In the future could you be direct in your reply about your ultimate attainment in the hereafter ? "
I am direct as far as my understanding as to what has been revealed. The scriptures and revelations say that god will lift us up (the very definition of 'Exalt') to where He, Our Father is.
He will give that to us. He will empower us as a joint heir with Christ.
The scriptures state we will have an 'increase of the seed' – some interpret that to mean physical procreation, others understand it in the Covenant Adoption Context wherein we are referred to as Christ's Children, or the Seed of Abraham. It is clear that the former idea is more widespread, and is easier imagery to understand for those who experience such a family on earth.
Please believe me when I say I'm not attempting to be disingenuous. I do my best to properly express what I understand the revelations to say, separated from interpretational speculation that has not been concretely revealed.
1. "Your point "2. I respond to the grace." A lot can be packed into that phrase. What constitutes "responding" – baptism as a work of righteousness or obedience rather than a means of grace received from the Lord?"
Anytime we receive a blessing from the lord, it is a manifestation of that grace. We respond to it in different ways. We view Baptism as a sign or token of the Covenant we make.
It visualizes and ritualizes (re-enacts) the grace we are receiving in many ways – death to old life, beginning of a new. Washing away our sins. Following in the life of the savior. It is an expression that we are identifying with the Master who has purchased us – that we acknowledge ourselves as his peculiar (purchased) treasure, and His servant.
Even after we enter into this covenant, we continue to recieve more blessings – manifestations of the full grace of God. We continue to acknowledge this by consecrating our lives to God by hearkening to His Will, and being obedient to our Master's voice. Because we are His, we belong to Him (by choice), we obey his will, believing and expressing faith that any commandment is four our well being, and for the general being of mankind as well. Christ said in John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." – obedience is a manifestation of our love for our Master.
2. "My second point is that if you believe in a multiplicity of gods and not the one true God as the Scripture declares, you are by definition lost. "
The scriptures in their original languages use the term 'gods' (elohim) to refer to what eventually became commonly known as angels. We acknowledge angels exist, but we don't worship them.
Along with Paul, we state "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:5)
I worship The Almighty God, who Christ said is His Father and Our Father, the Father of Spirits, who knows us and personally loves us. I worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Creator, who is my savior, redeemer, lord, and master.
I don't care what or who else may exist. I don't even think about it. No one else pertains to me. No one else is my Father, Creator, Savior, or Redeemer.
And the teachings about the pre-mortal existence and the rest of that line of LDS folklore flowed directly from the pen of Joseph Smith. There is no evidence for the validity of the Book of Moses or the revelations in the Doctrines and Covenants. They are pure mysticism and are the work of the fallible human mind of the false LDS prophet and/or demons working upon that mind. They are not the work of the Holy Spirit as they contradict the Bible, lower God to an exalted man, and Jesus Christ to an exalted spirit who became man. We can know that Joseph Smith is a false prophet because of numerous false prophecies, and because there were no attending signs and wonders that validated his message as we see with Jesus Christ and those he appointed as true prophets and Apostles.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Thats not true, You lead him to water, then rub salt on his tongue and he will drink.
"Christ taught principles that can be used in many areas of our life, and this parable in particular in regards to any and all resources the Lord allows us to have."
Ok, so you can apply to whatever you want, regardless of context – that´s the mormon way of studying scriptures alright.
This is what Christ was talking about: Mat 25:14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."
It has nothing to do with money, or with talents or any of that. He is talking about bearing fruit – the fruits of the gospel.
"The Church often takes a loss on the employees themselves at the beginning, but then the individuals go on to be wonderful participants in society. It's a fantastic and beautiful thing."
It still doesn´t mean the church is true – and still doesn´t mean building malls is something that a church does, a church should have Christ-centered interests…
"A statement that denotes a fulness of Intelligence as an attribute of Christ (such as that in Abraham 3 you appear to be referencing) to teach a principles doesn't count. "
Abraham 3 doesn´t count? Where else am i going to find whacky doctrine like that? Do your GA´s or apostles and prophets count?
"Please cite where it is taught that "Christ was chosen ONLY because he was more intelligent." I already said Jesus wasn´t ONLY chosen because of intelligence, it was also chosen because of what is written in Alma 13. He had those attributes because he was also foreordained, don´t you think? Wasn´t Christ´s calling a "sacred priesthood calling"?
You´re the words game guy!
Abraham 3:19 "And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."
Question – who is the closest to god in that case? Shouldn´t be the most intelligent? Shouldn´t it be Christ? LOL!
I remember learning in the Church that Christ was the most intelligent of us all and that Satan came second. You may claim that this is not taught in your scriptures but your temple covenants make you acknowledge the words of your leaders(prophets, apostles and seventies) as scripture as well – you can´t discard them just because you feel like it.
"Please cite where it is taught that "Christ was chosen ONLY because he was more intelligent." – A statement that denotes a fulness of Intelligence as an attribute of Christ"
Also – don´t you think that would be a requirement of the Christ? – can you imagine our redeemer being one spirit that was kind of dumb when it came to mathematics?
Can you be god and not be fully intelligent? (this is crazy stuff)
If intelligence didn´t matter, could i have tried for the job of redeemer in the pre-mortal life? You, maybe?
dltayman, here is a lot to think about when it comes to LDS and works.
Lets start with what the LDS church teaches about these things. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, salvation must be understood in light of these two definitions:
1. "Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."
2. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation" (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).
McConkie Also said
"those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be damned." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).
On pages 211-212 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET chastised members who
"are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation".
Bruce McConkie goes on to say again,
"Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:196).
Then in volume three of the same set, he wrote,
"Salvation is free,' but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (3:461).
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that
"for repentance to be complete, one must abandon the sinful behavior…Failure to alter outward actions means that the sinner has not repented, and the weight of the former sin returns" (3:1217).
Spencer Kimball teaches,
"discontinuance of sin must be permanent"
(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 176).
President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,
"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept…Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments." (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).
Mormonism teaches that this lifetime is a probation period. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie stated:
"One of the great purposes of this mortal probation is to test and try men, to see if they will keep the commandments and walk in the light no matter what environmental enticements beckon them away from the straight and narrow path" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.229).
The purpose of this lifetime is for the Mormon to prove himself worthy of exaltation. To fail in that capacity will result in never reaching that celestial goal.
President Joseph Fielding Smith said
if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69)
This agrees with Alma 34:32-33,
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors… And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."
It seems clear that while some Mormons feel they can get things right after death, this is not supported by LDS teaching.
Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said compliance with the law, not willingness, was necessary to obtain Godhood.
"This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).
The Book of Mormon teaches,
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32).
Spencer Kimball teaches, a mere willingness to try to overcome sinful tendencies is not enough. He asserted,
"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."
He went on to say, "To 'try' is weak. To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can" (Miracle, pp.164-165).
It appers as if Grace plus works, after all we can do, is simply impossible, or very close to it, Look at how Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith does not offer a lot of hope for many professing Latter-day Saints when he said,
"There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).
Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman's assessment that "if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well."
Bruce McConkie said that damnation will affect many types of individuals. On pages 176-177 of his book Mormon Doctrine, he stated that damnation will be experienced by those who are sons of perdition. On page 746 of the same book he describes sons of perdition as Lucifer, the demons (Mormonism teaches that the demons are God's spirit-children who chose to follow Lucifer in the "war in heaven"), and "those who have a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause…then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion."
Then, McConkie expands the definition of damnation to also include "those who fail to gain an inheritance in the celestial kingdom" as well as those "who fail to gain exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial world, even though they do gain a celestial mansion in one of the lower heavens of that world" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 176).
Lots of mormons have told me that if they die and only enter the first or second heaven they will have a chance to still move up to the 3rd heaven. Not so according to these guys. 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said,
"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).
"And just as much as we clearly point out that certain accusations of our beliefs are not true,"
Yeah, and you do that going contrary to the words of you living prophets and apostles. You should be tried and excommunicated for not supporting your prophet and apostles and for rejecting the teachings of past prophets and apostles. For creating your own version of mormonism.
For saying that the teachings of Brigham Young were merely his opinions. I wonder what would happen if he was alive to read what you´ve said about his teachings…
Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 says
"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."
Some Questions to think about?
* Joseph Smith said that a person "would get nearer to God by abiding by [the Book of Mormon's] precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). Just what are those "precepts" from the Book of Mormon that God wants you to follow that cannot be found in other books like the Bible?
* Alma 11:37 says that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Are you clean? How did you get that way? And how long does this cleansing last?
* Alma 11:37 also says that, as a Mormon, you "cannot be saved in your sins." D&C 1:31 adds that God cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Do you struggle with sin? If so, can it be assumed that you are not saved?
* As a Mormon I am sure you take repentance very seriously. However, on page 67 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Fundamentals it states, "Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them." Have you stopped sinning? If not, how can you be sure you will live eternally with Heavenly Father? If the above statement is true, doesn't the fact you continually repent, prove you are not truly repentant; after all, people who stop sinning have no need to repent.
* D&C 25:15 says that unless a person keeps the commandments "continually," he cannot go where God is. Do you keep the commandments continually? If not, where do Mormons like you go when they die?
* If you cannot say that you do keep the commandments "continually," then how do you explain 1 Nephi 3:7 where it says, "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them"?
* Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking—as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)—does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?
* In Alma 11:26-29 Amulek tells Zeezrom that there is only one "true and living God." If that is true, which of the three Gods in the Mormon godhead is not true and/or living? God the Father? Jesus? Or the Holy Ghost?
* If we are to believe that the Nephites are truly ancient "Mormons," where in the Book of Mormon does it say they held the Melchizedek priesthood? Where does it say they practiced baptism for the dead? Or believe that men can become Gods? How about God having a body of flesh and bones? What about the existence of a "heavenly mother"? Where does it say that all humans existed prior to this earthly existence? Or how Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
* D&C 88:22 says that only those who abide a celestial law can hope to achieve the celestial kingdom. Are you keeping celestial law?
* If the "decrees of God are unalterable" (Alma 41:8), why has your church made so many corrections over the years (i.e. Declarations 1 and 2, changes in the temple endowment ceremony, changes in the birth control doctrine, etc.)?
* Your leaders have taught that salvation comes by faith and works. If this is true, then why did Joseph Smith insert the word "alone" into Romans 3:28 of his Inspired Version (a.k.a. the Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible? (It reads, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.")
* Joseph Smith inserted the word not in Romans 4:5 of the Inspired Version so that it reads, "…who justifieth not the ungodly…" Are you "godly"? If so, how did you get that way? If not, doesn't that mean you are not justified before God? Why would God need to justify a godly person anyway?