This is the Christian message of how sinful man is graciously and mercifully reconciled to God. How well does this line up with the messages presented last weekend at the LDS General Conference?
“From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
* President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (Journal of Discourses 1:51). Do you believe Adam is God? If not, aren't you treating these "doctrines" lightly or with indifference"? Wasn't Spencer Kimball treating Young's teaching with indifference when he called it a "false doctrine" (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn't this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?
* Alma 10:3 states that Lehi "was a descendant of Manasseh." If Indians are really descendants of Lehi and his son Laman, why does DNA deny any link between Indians and Lehi's Jewish heritage?
* Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book of Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was He always God?
* President Brigham Young and other LDS leaders taught that those who were not valiant in the preexistence were marked in mortality with a "flat nose and black skin." (See Journal of Discourses 7:290, The Way to Perfection, p.101, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:175, Mormon Doctrine, p.527.) Since it was this mark that would help distinguish who was not eligible to receive the priesthood, why do some people still bear the mark even though the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978?
* Presidents Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff both taught that God is progressing in knowledge (Journal of Discourses 11:286, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3). Yet President Joseph Fielding Smith said that "this kind of doctrine is very dangerous" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8). Which prophet was telling the truth?
* When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it…" (8/4/97, p. 56). Was he telling the truth?
* Are you "sufficiently humble" and "stripped of pride"? If not, Alma 5:27,28 says you are not prepared to die. If you think you are, doesn't this prove you're not?
* Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said "a man may be damned for a single sin" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257). Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed?
* President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are "living all the commandments" are guaranteed "total forgiveness of sins" and assured of "exaltation" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208). Are you living all of the commandments? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven?
* Spencer Kimball also taught that "each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.133). How tall is this proverbial ladder? And which rung are you on?
* President Joseph F. Smith said, "…it is absolutely necessary for every man and woman in the Church of Christ to work righteousness, to observe the laws of God, and keep the commandments that He has given, in order that they may avail themselves of the power of God unto salvation in this life" (General Conference Report, October 1907, p.3) Yet Titus 3:5 states clearly that salvation is not gained by "works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy." How can salvation be wrought by God's mercy if you earned it through good works?
* In Ephesians 2:8,9 the Apostle Paul states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When Paul uses the word "saved," is he making a reference to a general resurrection or exaltation?
* The Apostle John stated, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). If you were to die right now, do you know for certain if you will have eternal life? If not, when will you finally know? Wouldn't you like to have this issue settled before you die? Do you think you ever will if you remain in the Mormon Church?
The section I posted about questions to think about, was taken From the Mormonism researech minstry website. So the question I will ask is, Would you rather try keeping the entire law, or simply allow grace that God gives to save you?
" trusting Christ to the extent that you are willing to formally promise Him that you will serve him and consecrate your life to him"
Sorry, for you that are trying so hard to educate us about mormon and evangelical terms, you should know Biblical Christianity doesn´t recognize that terminology.
" is not something the Lord asks of us?"
The Lord asks us to have faith in Him – that´s all.
"consecrate your life" – you also should know that for a Christian, to consecrate His life to Him happen the moment you repent and believe in Him – after that the Holy Ghost is the one responsible for the sanctification process.
For a mormon that means works, works, works – that´s how you´re are cleansed, through your works-righteousness.
It doesn´t matter – Christ was a god violating one of the tenants of mormonism. He was the god of the old testament or wasn´t he?
How can he be a god(or be allowed to be worshipped as a god) without going through a mortal body? That´s what Falcon was talking about.
"Please cite a credible reference that demonstrates that we teach that the Holy Ghost 'became [a god] by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism'"
How can i find a reference of a mormon leader acknowledging one of the biggest black holes of your theology? Specially when you´re ashamed of many of your past leader´s teachings?
You´re working with a definition of grace absolutely alien to the Bible.
"I worship The Almighty God, who Christ said is His Father and Our Father, the Father of Spirits, who knows us and personally loves us. I worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Creator, who is my savior, redeemer, lord, and master. "
So what do you do with the Holy Ghost? Is he or is he not a member of the godhead – can you be a member of the godhead without being a god?
Also, you said you worship 2 gods. errr… someone who worships more than 1 god is a polytheist – i just thought you needed to know that… just in case…
"I don't care what or who else may exist." – Man, don´t talk like that about your heavenly mother, you just crushed her heart. What about your heavenly grandfather… your heavenly grandmother won´t make you cookies when you get there, for you to learn to not treat them like that…
"Along with Paul, we state"
Ok, let´s put that scripture in context, shall we:
1 corinthians 8:4-5
"As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that ARE CALLED gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)"
Leave Paul alone – he has nothing to do with your doctrine.
And if you´re going to take that parable literally you have to take all parables literally.
In that case Christ was a financial adviser, a gardener, a baker, a wine-maker, a creditor, etc.
(i thought Jesus was a carpenter… oh well)
Amen!
"No. You have been very respectful. I can't speak for others here, though. "
You better not! 😛
"I am direct as far as my understanding as to what has been revealed"
Prov 3:5 – "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
You´re leaning to your own understanding – in mormonism you´re not allowed to do that. In your own words you have to SUBMIT to the words of "christ" through your prophets – no thinking of your own.
Too late for you, you already SUBMITTED yourself because you trusted so much christ that you entered into a COVENANT relationship with him that prohibits you of such actions.
Is anybody here going to answer my question?( i realize it´s friday though)
"It´s also interesting to note, that the scripture mormons use to invite people to read and pray about the book of mormon, Moroni 10:3-5 talks about knowing the truth through the Holy Ghost, but guess what – IT NEVER SPECIFIES IT BY SAYING THAT ANSWER COMES THROUGH SUBJECTIVE FEELINGS!
Does anyone know when that knowing through subjective feelings became the norm in the church? "
dltayman, thanks for the reply. I actually think you're trying the best way
you know how to try and articulate your personal beliefs. Upon further
reflection of this I have to say that perhaps it is because of your back-
ground that is resulting in the dialogue being somewhat confusing
with all the non-Mormons here. I think that if we're talking about Mormon
doctrine , it should come from the pen of those that have not been
"evangelical " i.e. your past and present prophets and apostles, as
they have the authority to declare doctrine to the church. Your personal
opinion is valued, it is not however the deciding vote on whether or not
Mormon prophets and apostles are true to God's Word . Are they reliable
to interpret God's Word [ LDS prophets interpret—Gospel Principles,
1997, p46 ] , or are they false teachers [ 2Tim.2:15-18 ] .
Rick, you really did your homework! Poor dltayman, he is going to spend his entire saturday answering… he should invite some friends over to help him.
Let´s see if dltayman is keeping his covenants, and respecting the words of the lord´s anointed and taking them as authoritative as scripture.
In General Conference TWO speakers mentioned pres. Benson´s talk saying that the words of the living prophet are more important than (older)scripture. So if dltayman isn´t keeping his covenants he doesn´t have the spirit inspiring him, and he won´t receive his eternal reward as he expects unless he repents.
I am wondering if the above sentence should instead read :
This is part of the Gospel taught by the LDS church, in the words of Jesus Christ in the Book
of Mormon
F_melo
Here is something the Mormons can think about. The LDS can say all they want we need to pray to know the truth, but…..
But what they forget is this, First off, the Book of Acts tells us to search the scriptures to know if these things are true, acts 17:11
Then Solomon prayed for wisdom, he was given wisdom and what happened? He walked away from God. So how did all that wisdom work out?
Then the LDS like to quote from James talking about wisdom,
but what they DONT ADD, or quote is how James says, some wisdom is Earthly, sensual, devilish. James 3:15 The question then is, Why?
f_melo,
I still have other info for him, Like He says and implies that Baptism is required for salvation and is a work we must do. But if that is the case, then I must ask, Why do the scriptures teach that Jesus did not baptize people? Or why did Paul say God did not send him to baptize? Or why did Paul say he did not come to baptize or why does Paul say, I dont know how many I baptized?
If we MUST BE BAPTIZED and it is a work, then he needs to answer the above questions.
"But what they forget is this, First off, the Book of Acts tells us to search the scriptures to know if these things are true, acts 17:11 "
I agree 100% with you on that.
but what i´m really getting at here is how did they come to the idea that the Holy Ghost manifests Himself through subjective feelings. I´m aware of D&C 9:8-9
"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me."
even so, you still have first to study in your mind… but today if you see the missionary lessons, they rush the people to get baptized(the invitation is made in the first visit), and there´s no studying anything in your mind at all, specially if it contradicts the "prophets".
Again, the way that is practiced today, it´s way to close to Lectio Divina, which is a mystical practice…
Also today the church leaders will say that experience was specific to Oliver Cowdery…
That was what my mission president told us, because many missionaries were complaining to him they never had any experience like that.
correction: …baptized(the invitation is made in the first discussion)
There is something that I've been very aware of in studying Mormonism and interacting with Mormons and that is in many cases Mormons have no in depth understanding of what their religion teaches. I don't do a riff based on what a movie like the "God Makers" might present. So please Mormons, tell me where I've gone wrong in my presentation.
1. Do Mormons believe that they will become gods?
2. Isn't the achieving of this god status dependent on the performance of certain prescribed works?
3. When the Mormon becomes a god, won't he and his wife engage in some form of procreating behavior in which to produce spirit children who will, after obtaining a human body, recognize the procreating Mormon as his god/heavenly father?
4. Won't that spirit child who has now obtained a body, pray to and adore the Mormon father god just as the Mormon prayed to and adored his father god when he was on this earth?
This is indeed weird and off-the-wall stuff and Mormons will deny it because it is weird and offensive and an affront to the One, holy, eternal God. And that's why Mormons will deny it and claim that Christians just don't understand Mormonism. The fact is that we understand Mormonism all to well and for the Mormon true believer, this is very frustrating. It's not that we don't understand it, it's that we don't believe it and understanding it we reject it. When Mormonism is presented in it's stark naked terms, it is weird and no massaging it will erase this fact.
I've had countless Mormons tell me on this forum over the years that I've got it all wrong and I don't know or understand Mormonism. However I've yet had one take these facts, point-by-point and refute them.
If necessary I'll paper this blog with documentation that what I've presented comes straight from the mouths and pens of Mormon leaders. But here's the Mormon game; deny, then say I don't understand, and finally, "you're attacking and persecuting us".
Mormonism is strange, weird, aberrant and totally at odds with the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But I understand that what we're dealing with in Mormonism, isn't flesh and blood but a spirit of error that entangles the Mormon's brain and renders their thought process useless. So when we as Christians engage in this battle, we look behind the veil of Mormonism and see the ugly spirit that drives it and seduces those who call themselves Mormons.
Thankfully most Mormons are inactive and the steady stream of those leaving this religion increases daily as they come to an understanding of the facts of Mormonism and its destructive power.
I do believe that the Lord of all creation has valid advice that can be applied to all trades.
And when the Lord's church is granted resources, I believe the Lord is pleased when investments are made that will increase those resources to be able in the future to bless the lives of more individuals – at the same time other resources are currently being used on a daily basis to do such.
I'm not arguing that Christ isn't the most intelligent. Your point was that we taught this was the sole qualifier for His election as Savior. I showed you this was wrong. Then you started arguing against something I never contended.
Please review the conversation.
For your arguments of what “The LDS Church Teaches”, you cited the unofficial publications:
1.Mormon Doctrine and Doctrinal New Testament Commentary , by “Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie”
2.The Miracle of Forgiveness by “Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET”
3.The Way to Perfection and Doctrines of Salvation by “President Joseph Fielding Smith”
First, a couple of corrections/misconceptions in your designations.
1.Bruce R. McConkie had not yet been called to the Apostleship when he wrote Mormon Doctrine.
2.The Miracle of Forgiveness was not written when Spencer W. Kimball was the President of the Church.
3.Neither Way to Perfection nor Doctrines of Salvation were written by Joseph Fielding Smith as President of the Church.
Next, Mormon Doctrine states at the beginning that what is presented is this indivual’s opinion, and “For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility.” – The Miracle of Forgiveness contains a similar disclaimer, “I accept full responsibility for the contents of this book. Specifically, the Church and its leaders are totally absolved from the responsibility for any error which it may be found to contain.”
While you may think this doesn’t make any difference, Bruce McConkie in his own book, under the entry General Authority, contained this acknowledgement:
“Though general authorities are authorities in the sense of having power to administer church affairs, they may or may not be authorities in the sense of doctrinal knowledge, the intricacies of church procedures, or the receipt of the promptings of the Spirit. A call to an administrative position of itself adds little knowledge or power of discernment to an individual, although every person called to a position in the Church does grow in grace, knowledge and power by magnifying the calling given him”
Couple this with this official statement from the Church, currently found on its official website: http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-…
“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.”
I do not feel obligated to counter admitted opinions of Church leaders who chose to publish in an unofficial capacity, distinct from the Official Publications of the Church as a whole.
As you pointed out, your other list of questions (which do in fact cite scriptures) were not original. You cut and pasted them directly from http://mrm.org/questions-for-lds, and do not express your individual personal sincere time and thoughts specifically directed at my own comments.
I don’t feel obligated to put all that time into answering a generic laundry list. Based on our other correspondence, I’m not convinced you take the time to really read and think about what I have expressed, but look for a keyword which then launches you into an assault on some unrelated principle. This leads to chaos, and a game for you, not a dialogue. I’m not interested in playing games.
I have tried to respectfully reply to those who respectfully and personally reply to the content of my messages. It is hard enough to keep up with them – I do not have time or desire to do anything else.
Would I also be correct in assuming that your previous list of quotes was also not compiled by yourself, but cut-and-pasted from somewhere else? Would you kindly attribute the original source as you did for the last part?
"Rick, you really did your homework! Poor dltayman, he is going to spend his entire saturday answering…"
I don't constitute cut-and-pasting someone else's work found _on this website_ homework, worthy of praise.
And I'm going to spend the balance of today enjoying a hike with my family.
The Lord regularly delegates responsibility to his servants. I don't see what this has to do with Paul not being able to keep count of how many he baptized.
Seeing as I am in 100% disagreement with Calvinist understanding of predestination, that wouldn't work out so well.
RickB,
Cross reference your D&C 42:18 with D&C 132:27. The first scripture says it is talking to the member of the church only – not to anyone else. The second states that those who are members and have made the covenants with God but then murder (defined as spilling innocent blood on purpose) are guilty of blaspheming the Holy Ghost which even the Bible says is unforgivable (Matt 12:32). This is because they have had a testimony from the Holy Ghost about what is true and right, but have then done something totally opposite to this knowledge.
As far as JS and his killing 2 people goes, there are 2 answers to this, and the first is that there is no 'evidence' of him doing that. There are second or third hand reports which are, from what someone accused me of a few months go, hearsay, and would not stand up in a court of law. So maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The second answer is it was not murder. The men JS purportedly killed had guns and fired on him first. JS was shooting to defend himself and save his friends lives. So he does not come under the condemnation that you put him under. He was innocent as he did not murder them. All you can get him for is lying, which is totally different thing to what you are trying to pin on him.
But I know you will most likely try and say he murdered them, but all the facts point to him killing in self defense, which at the most is man slaughter, not murder.
RickB,
You said "Where do you get the idea that people can call on the name of Jesus, than live how ever they want and still be saved?"
Maybe from Martin Luther. He did make comments like that. Remember I keep bringing up the fact that he said tht as long as you believe in Jesus Christ you can commit hundreds of adulteries and murders a day and still be saved. He also taught that we should sin every day on purpose to fully utilise the Atonement and rub it in the face of the Devil. These are what one of the most influential people in Protestant history taught and the people who followed him believed the same. Even today there are many out there that believe in this manner. Shall I remind you about the American Anglican church ordaining openly gay ministers a well as the Uniting Church here in Australia? Even the Lutheran church in Finland allow people to live together in a committed relationship without getting married and retain their church membership. You can say what you like about them not being 'Christian', but that is your opinion, I think they have a different view on this.
I don't know if you remember but about half a year to a year ago there was an LDS contributor that had converted from your brand of Christianity to the LDS church and he said that he was taught and led to believe that once one professes a belief in Jesus and is 'saved' then they can do whatever they want and still be saved.
So where do we get that idea from? Other 'Christians'.
I'll put in a little bit here too. I have been having many technical problems logging into this site as well as errors when submitting replies. If you want answers from me you will have to be patient until I can find the right combination to get a reply through.
Just letting you know this so you don't think I have vanished into the ether.
Ralph, I agree that their is nothing wrong with self defense, I can honestly say here and know, If you attack me and it is kill or be killed, your dead.
Now, my bigger issue is not so much, did JS kill or was it self defense. My issue is, He claims to be going to the slaughter like a lamb, (Jesus). Died Jesus fight back? Did Jesus try and run away? Did Jesus call them names or do anything? No. Did JS Die like Jesus, Not even close.
dltayman,
I only cut and pasted a few questions and cited my sources. I did not act like It was mine. Now does that change the fact that those statements are true or false? No.
If it was not cited then it was my work. Why do you judge me and assume I am lying? You dont like it when Christians do that to you. Also why is it Ralph says, Christians teach that we can call on Jesus and live how ever we want and then when I say an LDS church Prophet or president said this or that, then it is all of a sudden merely their opinion?
such a double stranded, I must simply roll over and say, well Christians who have no clue about the bible teach homosexuals can be ordained and that makes them biblical scholars. Please, thats lame.
dltayman,
You make excuse your why Bruce Mc cannot be used or trusted, Well I own the 1958 edition of the Mormon doctrine, so dont tell me I am cutting and pasting stuff, I typed this word for word from the book. Bruce makes the claim that he uses the former prophets and presidents as a source of knowledge and like it or not, LDS of days gone by and even know believe what he wrote. But I like how the Mormon doctrine was changed and no mention of it ever made, and I like how they know stopped publishing it because people use it as a resource.
In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:
This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique–the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel–the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.
True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.
But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation–and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.
This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.
Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.
this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7
For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.
Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.
Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 –Bruce R. McConkie.
Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.
I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.
In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.
1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.
2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and
3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.
You said that we must be baptized in order to be saved, and LDS teach we must be baptized since it is a (WORK) We must do. My point is, if baptism is so vital to salvation, then why do the scriptures say, Jesus did not baptize? Of all the People that should baptize if it is required for salvation, it should be Jesus.
Why did Paul tell the jailer, in order to be saved you must believe in Jesus. I would think Paul would say, you must be baptized and believe, if baptism is required. Why would Paul say, I did not come or was not sent to baptize if it is required for salvation. Why would Paul say he only baptized 2-3 people if it is required. That was my point.
"Please cite a credible reference that demonstrates that we teach that the Holy Ghost 'became [a god] by violating one of the tenants of Mormonism'"
Wow that is pretty strange! Can you please give a reference? I would like to share this with my mormon buddy.
Ralph,
You said Christian's teach we can call upon the Lord and then live how ever we want. I admit Christians teach false and stupid stuff. Just because they teach this does not make it true. Can you show me from Scripture where this is taught. I showed you that Jesus said, Not everyone who says LORD, LORD will be saved. Then People claimed to do miracles and works in His name and they still are not saved.
As to the church allowing homosexuals, they clearly are not Christians, They willfully ignore the verse that teach that life style is an abomination in the sight of God and people living like that will not enter heaven. Read Romans.
From your answer I see that it is indeed all about you and your responding, your works. You have packed a whole range of required works into "I respond to the grace." I ask you – Why did Jesus die on that cross? It seems Christianity according to your theology is mostly about what we do, about our works, about our hearts, about us fulfilling, etc.
dltayman, You talk about Spencer and others not being "Official" spokes people for the church, Well it seems here that these people cannot agree on what or who should be official. Let me add that THIS IS MY RESEARCH, Not cutting and pasting. I own the books and read them to obtain this information.
JS claims over in D and C 135:3-4 he has done more except Jesus has, well if this is the case why is it that the apostles like Paul, John, Peter and others have books of the Bible named after them and not Joseph? We read in the book of revelation that the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the gates of heaven but no where are any LDS apostles or prophets mentioned, strange how not even the super prophet JS is not mentioned if he ranks second to Jesus?
Now we read J Smith saying in the book History of the Church vol 4, pg 461. "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it's precepts, than any other book."
Then over in the book, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on pg 71 we read, " Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? we have none."
Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Notice Joseph Smith was the first "prophet" Joseph F Smith was the 10th "prophet/president" of the Church. So as not to confuse with the close names.
We read in the book,
Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199 J.F.S. teaches, " In my judgment their is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the pearl of great price, which we say are our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.
I am going to tell you why. When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more, and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a history containing the doctrine and commandments given to the people anciently. that applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the doctrine and history and commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.
But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter Day Saints.
So we find here two prophets disagree on just how important the BoM really is?
Now lets add to this what Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.
So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary's not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?
Ralph,
let me add to this, Read the Book of Job, read the last few chapters, Job and his friends got many things wrong about God, Did God simply blow it off as nothing? No, He called them out and rebuked them severely. So can people who call themselves Christians teach God is OK with living a lifestyle that he condemns? No, He will not allow that from what I read in scripture. So people can say what they want, but unless it lines up with scripture, it does not make it true.
What a red herring this claim that there are folks who say they are Christians who teach/believe they can sin with impunity because they are saved by grace. The key words here are "claim they are Christians". Quite frankly, I've never run into any of these "believers" but it's a big world and there very well may be those who teach such a thing. They're wrong, but I guess they can teach it if they want. Mormons enjoy saying this because it puts Christians on the defensive and takes the focus off the real issue which is the odd and weird belief system of Mormonism.
In Mormonism there are two levels of "salvation". The first level is a universal salvation that is available to everyone who has ever lived be they Adolf Hitler or Mother Theresa. The second level of Mormon salvation is where the worker bee program comes into play. It's these works that will allow a Mormon male to become a god, have his own planetary system to rule and enjoy endless, perpetual sex with one or more wives. BTW, Joseph Smith taught that in order to reach the pinnacle of the Celestial kingdom and super god status, a Mormon male needed to practice polygamy. The works program relates to the concept of eternal progression where the Mormon male having had morphed to a god, will receive more knowledge, more light and be a works resulted more perfect god.
So that's why we get some Mormon males, who have bought into the program, working like mad in their arrogant and prideful belief that they will become gods.
Orthodox Christianity teaches that there is One, eternal God who is perfectly righteous. Man is separated from God because of sin. We can never do enough to save ourselves. So God in His love and mercy, made provision that we might receive salvation as a free gift from Him. Thus, He put Himself on a cross of shame and took the death penalty which we deserved, on Himself. Having come to Him in faith, we are born again. The life we live from that point on is in gratitude for what He did for us. The Bible tells us that as we walk in the spirit, we are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all of our unrighteousness.
That's classical orthodox Biblical Christianity.
The Holy Ghost is a "god" without ever having to go through the mortal probation at all. No fair! 😉
Nice to see you around Falcon!
boy falcon, you can't be more right that Mormons today don't understand their own religion. I think, way back in the day (the founding days), they knew it. But anymore… it's a virtual smorgasbord. Anyone can believe anything they want, and be right! Unless, of course, they DON'T believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, or that the Bible is mistranslated, or that there was a great Apostasy and Jesus' truth was taken from all Christians everywhere.
The Mormons who understand the real LDS doctrine are the ones working their tales off, and keeping record, so that every bad thing they've done can be over-ridden by their good works, and hopefully, hopefully, they'll make it to a good place in the multi-levels of heaven when they die. These are the probably some of the same ones refilling their prosac subscription regularly, and crying in their closets that they just didn't get out and visit-teach this week.
Oh, what a monstrous mess, Mormonism is. Praise God that He sees us there anyway, and pulls us out!
"I believe the Lord is pleased when investments are made that will increase those resources to be able in the future to bless the lives of more individuals"
How do you know they´ll use that money to bless anyone´s life, that they won´t use it to make even more money investing in even more businesses?
Can mormons get a discount in the mormon mall? Can they get a discount in mormon hotels? How are those things blessing anybody´s life at all? Do they send homeless people to live/work in those?
And if they do bless the members of the church, prove it.
Yes, i did answer you saying that it was required of Christ those things mentioned in Alma 13.
So, he was the most intelligent, the one with most faith who exercised his free agency to do the greatest amount of good works.
Those were the qualifiers, according to your scriptures.
"I don't constitute cut-and-pasting someone else's work found _on this website_ homework, worthy of praise. "
I´m not talking about the cut-and-paste. I´m praising him for his enormous patience to go after those quotes and select them appropriately to substantiate his argument.
He actually used more church leaders than you to prove his point against your argument than you used it to defend your arguments.
"First, a couple of corrections/misconceptions in your designations.
1.Bruce R. McConkie had not yet been called to the Apostleship when he wrote Mormon Doctrine.
2.The Miracle of Forgiveness was not written when Spencer W. Kimball was the President of the Church.
3.Neither Way to Perfection nor Doctrines of Salvation were written by Joseph Fielding Smith as President of the Church. "
Here´s the deal – if it´s not inspired, why does your church keeps on selling them? If it´s not inspired or correct, why are those works so frequently quoted in your teaching manuals?
Tell your church to officially denounce them, and remove them – then we will stop using them. Until then it´s still official, approved church publication.
"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine"
So, if that´s the standard then i can dismiss everything Joseph Smith ever said – the King Follett discourse isn´t canonized scripture so i can dismiss your entire doctrine of eternal progression as non-official, just the ideas of JS.
Mormons then actually believe there´s only one god and he´s been god forever, as the Book of Mormon states.
I still don´t get it – can i go live with god in the celestial kingdom without ever passing through the temple?
Because that scripture only says that those angels that are "saved" in the celestial kingdom are the ones who didn´t keep the commandments required for exaltation.
" (defined as spilling innocent blood on purpose) are guilty of blaspheming the Holy Ghost which even the Bible says is unforgivable"
The difference being that the Bible never ever equals blaspheming the Holy Ghost with murder. Moses was a murderer, as was David – and the Bible is clear that God forgave them.
Other important point – when the Bible says that blaspheming the Holy Ghost is not forgiven, it is in no wise saying that the blood of Christ isn´t capable of forgiving that sin(as the mormon doctrine of blood atonement says), but it is the sovereign God that says He won´t forgive it because He chose not to forgive those.
Christ´s blood could atone for any sin whatsoever – but God will forgive whom He will forgive.
Another thing i see is when mormons ask tough questions their leaders say something to this effect: "until we understand and practice the basic principles of the gospel, being faith, repentance, baptism, holy ghost, there´s no use in getting deeper understanding. How can you understand the deeper doctrines unless you master the basic ones?"
Every General Conference someone says something like that. That´s also the reason why they are studying the new gospel principles manual for 2 years in elder´s quorum and relief society.
" These are the probably some of the same ones refilling their prosac subscription regularly"
Elder Ballard gave a talk just on that:
"Recently I talked to a sister who was in the psychiatric unit of a local hospital. She shared with me her sorrowful journey from complete mental and physical health, a wonderful marriage and family, into mental illness, debilitating health, and the breakup of her family—all of which started with the abuse of prescription painkillers."
(O That Cunning Plan of the Evil One)