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53 Responses to Mormonism and Multiple Godheads
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I have pointed out many times that the Bible says, Or better yet God himself has said, I am the only God, their are no other Gods formed before me and their are no Gods after me. So If God says He knows of no other gods, then He is a Liar if their are other gods. Even if His father was/isa god, that makes Him a liar so say, I know of no other Gods but me. Also if their are gods that came before Him, and His father is a god, that would stand to reason that his father is more powerful than Him. Yet in the Bible God the father said He can swear by nothing greater because their is nothing or no one greater than Him. So again that makes Him a lair.
Then if you read in the Pearl of Great Price, God the father says in one section, I am the only God, their are NO OTHER GODS THAT I KNOW OF. Strange How God can say that, but then a few chapter over God the father says, I sat in the councel of the gods and WE CREATED the heavens and the earth. Did He just not say, Their are no other gods, I know of None? He lied then. Since he goes onto say, I sat in the councel of the gods after saying their are no others. Seems like the real auther of mormonism is Satan, and the LDS simple listen to their father, The father of lies.
Mormons don´t think those deep thoughts proposed on that video – they just are not necessary for a person´s salvation. – or -First they have to master the gospel principles(which will take their entire lives), then they can go on into deeper questions.
I remember when i was a child asking my father – if HF has a father, who is His father? who is his father´s father? Who was the first father, Where did it all begin?
If you analyze that, you´re going to see that mormonism is hand-in-hand with the idea of evolution, since gods are formed out of space-dust(also called intelligences), and that "matter" always existed. One could go so far to even conclude there is a god higher than all the gods of mormonism, and that god is the Force(as presented in the movie Star Wars that took that from eastern mysticism).
I say that because in mormonism there´s a law that is older than all the gods that has to be obeyed for one to become a god. If anyone ever read or listened to Cleon Skousen´s meaning of the atonement talk will see him explain how it was that Christ´s atonement was only the means by which he could make those intelligences feel compassion for him, so that he could then choose which ones would be forgiven or not.
He makes clear in that talk that the power of god is his honor(as taught in D&C), and if he loses his honor he will no longer be god,(that is taught in the Book of Mormon as well). Therefore in mormonism, beyond all the men-gods there is a higher god that is the Force, a mystical power that is contained in all there is, that is intelligent and directs the course of the universe – which mormons call intelligences.
Creepy stuff. Mormonism is a mystic form of christianity(because it uses the name christ, only because of that).
btw – i don´t know if you are aware, but unofficially the mormons usually say that the when we become gods the thing that will change is the blood that runs in our veins, it will be a perfect spiritual blood.
I´ve heard a few leaders explain this, that when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, their perfect blood was turned into this red blood that decays and attracts diseases.
So, the only real physical difference between us and gods is the blood that runs in our veins.
Mormons dont think deep period.
Look at the questions/topics they avoid. They never covered the temple questions, they seem to avoid the tough things, it's just to much to ask of them to question their faith since they want to believe what they want to believe.
I'm afraid this is one of those subjects that, in order to understand it, a person has to be really deep and super duper spiritual. Right? Mormons have special personal revelation going on so they can busy themselves with endless speculation and derive many hours of entertainment and feelings of spiritual superiority. What it amounts to, however, is "junk theology".
And after all that, if they proclaim their revelations as revealed doctrines, then they get excommunicated. Only the prophet can have those, even though all have the gift of the Holy Ghost. I guess regular members only have a small dose of spirit, compared to the prophet.
Funny how the Prophet has the Holy spirit, Yet the only thing the holy spirit never tells the prophet is the answers to all the contradictions and problems in the church.
f_melo wrote
That's a very interesting observation from someone who, until very recently, was a Mormon.
Technically, it's a form of Pantheism (the 'gods' are made out of, or comprise the matter that makes the Cosmos). One of the leading proponents of this idea is Philip Pullman, the atheist who wrote the 'Golden Compass" series, including 'His Dark Materials'. In his novels, he propounds the view that Elohim (and the other 'gods') are formed out of a primeval dust, which the Magesterium (a pseudonym for the Church) is afraid of and goes to unspeakable lengths to disprove and suppress (see the film "The Golden Compass").
The fatal flaw with Pantheism, IMO, is the Big Bang. Put simply, there was a beginning to the Cosmos (including a beginning to time itself), so something outside the Cosmos was needed to initiate it. In other words, the Original Cause (let's call it God, for convenience) of the Cosmos absolutely could not have been made out of the 'stuff' (stardust?) that the Cosmos is made of, which is what the gods-made-out-of-space-dust hypothesis demands.
Interesting also, that in Joseph Smith's time, Cosmologists probably held to a 'steady state' universe, as expressed more recently by Astronomer Royal Fred Hoyle, who was an ardent opponent of Stephen Hawkings' Big Bang. In the steady state universe, gods-made-out-of-space-dust could be eternal, because the universe itself and the space dust in it was eternal.
All the evidence to date shows that's not the case – the Big Bang gives us a beginning to all matter and even time itself. Before it (if, indeed you can talk about a 'before' in the sense of 'before time') neither time, matter nor energy existed.
(Gen 1:1)
(John 1:1-3)
(Rev 1:8)
(Rev 22:13)
Unfortunately for Joseph Smith, the current science of his day let him down. What a pity he could not see into the heavens through some divine act of special revelation.
(Oh, dang it, I slipped into sarcasm again).
Mormons placed themselves outside the mainstream of Christian and even Jewish thought when they decided to follow the demented and ego driven thinking of Joseph Smith. Who God is, is knowable. But Mormons, by accepting at face value, the psuedo revelatory experiences of Joseph Smith, put themselves on a pathway to spiritual destruction. That's the problem with folks who are willing to blindly follow the "prophetic" utterances of a person who was totally ignorant (or by his own choice ignore) the Bible and the writings of the Church Fathers.
So after the fact, Mormons are left to scramble for scriptural support for a point-of-view that rejects the God of the Bible. There is no evidence that Christians can provide these Mormons that will shatter their belief in the teachings of Joseph Smith. Their faith rests entirely on him. In fact, it is said that in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must get the OK from Joseph Smith. While trying to pass themselves off as a Christian denomination, Mormons reject the very God who defines Christianity.
The biggest joke is when Mormons proclaim that they are practicing first century Christianity. Can we find anything in the NT that even hints at Mormonism. Of course not, but Mormons will say that it's because a gigantic conspiracy left Mormonism out of the Bible. This is a delusion beyond reason. It doesn't even seem to trouble these Mormons that Joseph Smith found it necessary to change the Bible penning himself in as a "future" prediction.
There is a certain amount of pity with which we view Mormons. They're like someone who didn't "get it" and shows up at a formal dinner party in a Halloween costume. They think that everyone dressed in their formal wear is dressed wrong and they in their skeleton costume are dressed correctly. Most people in this situation would immediately recognize their error and change their clothes. Not Mormons, they continue to insist to the host of the party and all of the properly attired guests that THEY are the ones who are dressed improperly.
At the end of times Jesus will give a banquet and those who show-up not clothed properly will be rejected. They will not be allowed to come in and dine with Him.
In the era that Joseph Smith lived, there was a lot of religious experimentation and innovation. It was also a time, in the geographical area he lived, of Christian revivalism. Joseph Smith, as Grant Palmer has pointed out, created the BoM based on the Bible, the spirit and energy of revivalism, ideas that "were in the air….the environment" i.e. Indians being descendents of the Jews, and his own creative imagination. It seems to me that Joseph Smith never met a weird and wacky religious thought or theory that he didn't like or wouldn't make use of. He started out fairly conventional but within a short time incorporated Masonic temple rituals, polygamy, the levels of heaven and his rejection of the nature of God in favor of a doctrine that men could become gods.
Smith had the ability to con people into thinking that he was receiving all of this glorious information from God based on revelation. Smith went for all of the offices he could assign to himself including priest, prophet, interpreter of ancient texts, general of his army, mayor and presidential candidate. He also managed, along the way, to collect thirty-three wives, some of whom already were married to other men. Yea, this is a guy folks should be real eager to follow.
Although Smith did many egregious things, the worst by far was his rejection of God and simultaneously convincing the naive people who followed him, that they could become gods. Today's Mormons are left to interpret and defend exactly what Smith was proclaiming. It wasn't enough we see, for Smith to be priest, prophet, interpreter of ancient text, general, mayor, and presidential candidate, he had to also become god.
The bottom line in Mormonism is Joseph Smith. Once someone accepts his far fetched stories, they will accept everything else in the package. That's why something as ridiculous as his musings on the nature of God and man is embraced by those who buy his other fanciful claims. It's an emotional hook and emotional hooks can be very difficult to extract. I've seen and read about countless "prophets" many of whom are around today, who have large followings and whose adherents are absolutely convinced that these guys/gals have some special revelatory gift. What is being hooked comes right out of the followers emotions/souls which appears to be very spiritual but is nothing more then a manufactured product.
One of the central tenants of the main points of Mormonism is the repetition of the mantra of Joseph Smith being a prophet. The idea of a young boy going out into the woods and meeting God the Father and Jesus stirs-up the imagination of some people and lures them into what amounts to a cult. Depending on the depth of the emotion it can either be somewhat easy or extremely difficult to make the transition out of Mormonism.
For those Mormons who come to a proper understand of the nature of God, coming to Christ eases that transition. We can only hope, pray and ask God to draw them to Himself.
just found this blog today and find it to be very offensive. There is also no info on the side of the blog about your purpose or intent with posting. Obviously in reading through several posts it is to attack other Christians. wow.
"That's a very interesting observation from someone who, until very recently, was a Mormon"
I had been studying new age and mystery religions stuff for about a year before i started connecting the dots(i took me that long because i would never doubt the integrity of the church, i couldn´t believe those men in SLC were deceiving me – how naive). The similarities with what the lds church taught started bothering me, until finally i saw the church listed among non-christian organizations that taught that kind of occult stuff and went to google to find out more about it. From there i found utlm.org, and everything else.
Then when i started seeing the differences between the Christian God and the mormon god, it became clear what mormonism had really been teaching me all along.
f_melo
So, all Mormons are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
(To borrow a phrase from George Orwell's 'Animal Farm').
If Mormons really want to know and understand who God is, what they need to do is take off their Joseph Smith designer magic glasses, read the Bible, and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to their hearts. The Mormon "overlay" acts as a filter for truly comprehending the awesome nature of God. Jesus said that "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will lead you to all truth."
Joseph Smith did not come up with his notion of the nature of God by reading the Bible. God's Holy Word was not his source nor was the Holy Spirit. Mormons need to know that Joseph Smith was a man known to embrace and dabble liberally in the magic arts. The spirits by which he did his conjuring, weren't going to reveal any truth regarding God to him. His revelatory pronouncements did not flow from the Spirit of God.
Following Joseph Smith will not lead a person to the God of the Bible. What it will lead them to is not only a distorted and flawed explanation of who God is, but to a religious belief that embraces pantheism and a polytheistic view of deity. Mormonism is at its core, paganism. While Mormons will claim that they worship but one god, they will at the same time acknowledge that there is more than one god. By default, the god they worship and pray to is not even the most knowing and powerful god in their pantheon of gods. Other gods who came before their god hold the distinction of having progressed to a more perfect state of godhood.
So to any Mormon who really seeks to know who God is, an unfiltered reading of the Bible will lead them to the One and only God-the God who can provide them with the gift of eternal life. All other so called "gods" are nothing more than the creation of a man who could not bring himself to humbly submit to the God of the universe.
fmelo,
Here is where I question either what you were taught or what you understood about what you were taught. From what I have been taught, we teach that when Adam and Eve became mortal blood entered their cardiovascular system – not that their perfect blood was turned into this red blood – but that it entered their veins at this point in time. This is what makes us mortal.
Immortal bodies do not have blood – it has nothing to do with a difference between being human and 'god'. Everybody will have the blood removed from their veins when resurrected. What will replace it, if anything, we don't know.
Cross reference Matt 16:17 and John 6:54 where it mentions flesh and blood bodies with Luke 24:39 where Jesus says that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone. This is partially explained in D&C 129:1-2 and in 1 Cor 15:50-53. Also see Russell M. Nelson talk, “The Atonement,” in Ensign, Nov 1996, page 33. There are most likely other references I can use, but its almost 1 am here and I am not in the mood for doing more research at the moment.
Basically, the main difference between a mortal body like ours now and an immortal body as all will receive in the resurrection is blood. It is not as you intimate that its only for those who become 'gods'.
"Here is where I question either what you were taught or what you understood about what you were taught."
I heard it once or twice in my entire life.Thank you for correcting it!
Who taught that? Where is that doctrine found? – i don´t think that is in D&C…
OK, I looked up 'resurrected body blood' on the LDS website and found this –
Teachinggs of BY (Priesthood/RS manual)
There are most likely more around, but with many references that have those word in them, but do not say much about this actual topic, its difficult to find anymore.
But whenever Jesus' resurrection, our resurrection or talking about Heavenly Father's characteristics comes up in a class here in my ward, this is always brought up that it is principally our blood that makes us mortal and that a resurrected body has no blood. So I don't know why you never heard it that often. And look at the scriptures I used above – the D&C is also given there.
Ralph wrote
This kind of speculative garbage really makes my blood boil (pun intended) (see 1 Tim 4:7 and 2 Tim 4:4).
If God created human bodies without blood, why did he create them with veins and a cardiovascular system?
What about the reconstruction of the Adam and Eve story in Gen 3?
Let's fill in the 'missing' bits shall we…Adam and Eve had a happy pre-mortal existence (on Kolob, perhaps) but then the Flying Spaghetti Monster came along, stuck a needle into their (empty) veins and "inflated" them with red blood, making them mortal. Said FSM also put them in a spaceship and transported them to earth. The whole story of salvation from then on is basically an attempt to reverse the transfusion. Gee, if only we had known, then we could have put Jesus in a Blood Bank truck instead of nailing him to a cross.
Thank heavens that we have REAL characters, like Dr Gregory House, who might be able to find a way to rectify the situation.
What happened to SIN, or God even? Or the whole concept that the shedding of blood is the shedding of life.
Jesus gave his life for us so that we could live (1 John 1:7); it wasn't simply an aborted attempt at a blood transfusion.
Tell you what, why don't you go talk to the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have a similar mythology concerning blood, which arose at almost exactly at the same time and in the same place as yours. Oh, I forgot, they're apostates and they think you're apostate, too.
Pity your gods can't talk to each other – you might find some benefit from the alliance.
Once again, Mormonism shows itself to be a product of 19th Century America and its misinformed pseudo-science.
Mormonism – converting Christians to Atheism since 1830.
Something that Mormons ought to do is compare the attributes of the Mormon god with the God who reveals Himself in His Word, the Holy Bible. The Mormon god of this world is a "subgod" not really even the first god in the Mormon pantheon of gods. Mormons are unable to even identify who the number one head god is. All they know is that there is a multiplicity of gods each one progressing along a continuum that never ends. Mormonism is much like Free Masonry in that a Mason receives more knowledge and light as he moves through all of the various degrees (of Masonry). At least in Masonry, the steps on the ladder to success are well identified and defined for those members who are desirous of making it to the top of the heap.
The God of the Bible is fully God. He doesn't need to go on a self-improvement program to achieve any more knowledge. He is all knowing. He is also omnipresent. He is every where. The Mormon god is limited by time and space. God is omnipotent or all powerful. The Mormon god is just too small, too limited and without any real attributes that would cause anyone searching for God, to choose him.
Jesus is God. He isn't the spirit off spring of the Mormon god and one of his goddess wives. Jesus is God incarnate, the physical presence of the living God. John wrote; "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Mormons make Jesus into a valiant older sibling, believing that they and the one the call Jesus are the off spring of the same god and one of his wives. Actually we don't know if that's accurate since the Mormon god has a bevy of wives with whom he partakes of spiritual procreation.
Mormons need to put aside their foolishness and bow their knees to the One, true and living God. He alone is God. He alone shows us the pathway to eternal life.
Question – how come you accept that teaching from BY as authoritative and true? Was that doctrine or merely his opinion? What´s the criteria?
"the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization. When that is dissolved, and we again obtain our bodies by the power of the resurrection, that which we now call the life of the body, and which is formed from the food we eat and the water we drink will be supplanted by another element; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God"
By that same logic our physical bodies won´t have flesh either.
" I used above – the D&C is also given there." – where? there isn´t any doctrine and covenants reference in your post.
I didn´t hear that often at all – you know, not everything in the lesson is emphasized by the teacher – that depends on time.
Why is it that when Brigham Young teaches you will all become like vampires, you accept it as doctrine – you should renounce that as well, it doesn´t make the church look good(except for teenage girls).
"Said FSM also put them in a spaceship and transported them to earth"
Martin, guess what – if i´m not mistaken i read once in the book "discourses of Brigham Young" that same thing – that Adam and Eve had been born on another planet and were brought over here. So we are all children of extraterrestrials.
This is on par with Star Gate, or those people that say aliens started life on earth, they taught the Egyptians how to build pyramids, etc.
L. Ron Hubbard wasn´t as creative as Brigham Young, but at least he didn´t turn Christ into an illuminated master, who came to earth to "show us the way"…(he only showed us the way in the sense that He IS the way – He showed Himself to us!)
The maker of this video cleverly moves the discussion from the Biblically supported doctrine of "one collective Godhead" to the potentially illogical and scripturally unsupported theory of "multiple Godheads", ostensibly to discredit Mormonism with a quick “there is only one God” biblical citation.
Why do well-meaning Christians think their “three-in-one, one-in-three, God-in-three-persons” Deity is, unequivocally, the only theological conclusion justified by scripture while the Mormon triune of “many Gods acting as One” is impossible? Especially when the very verse cited (“the Most High God”) presupposes the existence of Gods of lesser stature?
Those familiar with scripture will recall the multiple Biblical citations distinguishing among divine Beings of potentially different status (for example, the “mighty” God in contrast with the “most high” God). Jesus prayed for unity among His disciples even as He was “one” with His Father (John 17). Nevertheless, Jesus said, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). Jesus later admonished His disciple (wife?) to go and tell His brethren that He ascended to "my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God” (John 20). The book of Revelation concludes with several powerful affirmations that those who follow Jesus will sit on His throne, even as Jesus is set on His Father's throne (Rev 2; 3:21), to inherit all that His Father has.
If this is not “one collective Godhead”, what is it?
And what would "eternal life" be, if not the kind of life God enjoys?
Surely "eternal life" is more than mere endless existence. (Christians generally acknowledge that "endless life" in hell would not qualify as "eternal life".) How, then, is the Mormon definition of eternal life as "godhood" precluded by scripture, while yours is not?
What is "eternal life" to you? Mormons claim it is to know the Father and the Son, in the fullest sense. Can one truly "know" another, without walking in their shoes?
A better rendering would be: "There is but One God: that divine collective of Beings of whom the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are representative." Outside of this "fellowship", there is no god. All the Gods are One.
Our Father is gracious and willing to forgive a host of offenses — even those perpetrated by those who think they "know" and who, upon that basis alone, persecute, deride and vilify His saints and representatives, the prophets.
The prophets have ALWAYS been misunderstood and condemned, characterized as wearing "costumes" to a formal engagement. However, Jesus died for ALL mankind, including those who are ignorant of Him and His Father.
Mormons, Christians, Jews and others all have MUCH to learn regarding Deity. We can start by being modest and forgiving. Mormons wish no ill will on anyone. If they are misguided in their understanding of Deity, they may repent and be enlightened as will we all when the Son of Man makes His glorious appearance and all things are, at last, revealed.
I think even grossly misguided and ignorant Christians and Jews will be looked upon mercifully by a loving God who understood that His children strained in darkness. He will judge all people by their works and by the light and knowledge they were privy and willing to receive.
Even if ALL the Mormon claims are true, that places them only a fraction of a smidgen closer to Deity than the rest — for we all are grossly inferior to the fullness of truth that is indubitably awaiting our discovery.
The distance between prophet and pervert, murderer and martyr is a tiny measure, indeed. We are ALL fallen creatures, but for the GRACE of God!
You have to think about a couple of things when you examine the Christian orthodox view of the nature of God. First of all examine closely the history of the early Church and look to the writings of the Church fathers. Pressing back on the second century we see the orthodox view as the doctrine of the early Church. When the heretical doctrines began to emerge, the Church Fathers found it necessary to appeal to both the Scriptures and the traditions of the Church. This is because they found that in debating the heretics, they (heretics) would twist the Scriptures to suit their own arguments. The heretics often claimed that they had "secret" information. Irenaus of Lyon (130-200) in "Against the Heresies" said, "The tradition of the apostles can be clearly seen in every church by those who wish to behold the truth. We can enumerate those who were established by the apostles (and their successors) in the churches down to our time-none of whom taught or thought of anything like the heretics' mad ideas."
The heresy that Mormonism embraces is nothing new. It's been around in some form or another since the early centuries. Joseph Smith, as with the early heretics, rejected the authority of the Church. He formed his own religion and in time rejected the basic teachings of Biblical Christianity about God, for a hybrid version of his own regarding the nature of god.
It's a good idea to get a firm grasp of the history of the early Church from authoritative sources and not the Mormon spin machine.
It's pretty difficult to have a serious discussion with a Mormon about the nature of God. During the first four hundred years of Church history, there was a fierce debate out of which emerged a clearly articulated orthodox doctrine. The Church Fathers insisted on very strict and narrow definitions with an exact language so there would be no question as to what Christians believed.
Mormons start out with a basic Arian heresy which rapidly deteriorates into a bizarre an odd mixture of father gods and mother gods, eternal progression of gods, spiritual procreation and male gods who have a multitude of wives with whom they procreate spirit children, many of whom will be potential gods. It even gets more odd as Brigham Young contended that the Mormon heavenly father had physical sex with Mary to produce Jesus.
Now how is a Christian suppose to take a Mormon seriously and even hope to have a logical discussion about the nature of God? Mormon thought doesn't even rise to the level of a decent heresy.
what version of the Bible did this come from?
Good will said
Are you a mormon? where do you get 12 guys following Jesus and turn one into His wife? Jesus was never married.
The Bible doesn´t describe very much of how the next life will be – so, does that mean it is OK for anyone to make stuff up about it? I can make up an explanation of how it is going to be in Heaven, and claim it was a revelation from God – just like Joseph did. Will you pray about it to know if what i say is true?
"How, then, is the Mormon definition of eternal life as "godhood" precluded by scripture"
Precluded by scripture? What scripture? Not even your scriptures say that men will become gods with all the words. They usually say that people will have all that god has, or that men will turn to a state similar to god(immortality and eternal life), but no scripture of yours says you will be gods, creating worlds, sending new christs to atone for their sins, etc. The Book of Abraham only hints at that with the whole "seed" deal, i think.
All of your "godhood" ideas derive solely from Joseph Smith´s imagination, and you can barely defend it with your scriptures, specially with the Book of Mormon, which you say contains the fulness of the gospel, but as i´ve learned, it doesn´t contain all fulness, just a little fulness because the full fulness is when you put together the Bible, the BoM, D&C, PoGP, the teachings of modern prophets(the ones that don´t embarrass the church), and whatever else may be "revealed".
Eternal life = to live for eternity. What are we going to be doing for eternity? Nobody knows, scriptures don´t tell us, but is going to be something beyond any mortal understanding.
1Co 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
That´s what i believe and i trust the word of God.
Very simple
"God-in-three-persons" = Monotheism = Isa 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (this is just one o many, many passages that clearly states there is only one God, no more.)
“many Gods acting as One” = polytheism.
See how simple it is. If you are going to turn one God manifested in 3 persons into 3 different gods, you have a completely different religion as Falcon points out.
"he potentially illogical and scripturally unsupported theory of "multiple Godheads"
The author of the video didn´t make any of that up, your doctrine of eternal progression, proposing that there are billions or even trillions of gods – since things here are done as it was in other worlds, and god had to go through the same path we are now. Imagine that out of the 6 billion people that live on the earth today, 2 billion eventually achieve godhood… see what i´m saying? Your doctrine of eternal progression raises those questions, and your own doctrine discredits itself if you try to fit it in the Bible.
"even as He was “one” with His Father" – So, you arbitrarily decide which scriptures to take symbolically and which scripture to take literally? What about Joh 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"
Is that passage literal too? Oops…
“My Father is greater than I”
That one is easy, let Paul answer it for me: Php 2:6 "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"
"His disciple (wife?)" Here comes the Davinci Code fans… Question: Where were the little Jesus´ running around? Where are Jesus´ descendants today? Are they walking on water or performing miracles or are they being protected by a secret society? Uuuuhhhh – call Dan Brown now, he could make another sequel to the Davinci Code, and in this one he would reveal that Christ wasn´t only married, but he was a polygamist too!!!!!! He´s going to make millions with it!!!!!!!!!!!
"my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" So? God was Jesus´ father on the flesh and the disciples´ Father in spirit through spiritual rebirth, so what? He was His God because, as the Bible tells us Jesus submitted Himself to God the Father(as Paul also explains in the scripture above).
"even as Jesus is set on His Father's throne"
What part of "And the Word became flesh" don´t you understand?
"If this is not “one collective Godhead”, what is it?"
What part of "I´m the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end" don´t you understand?
It is the Holy Trinity, ONE GOD, three persons.
Joseph Smith´s translation of the hebrew. If they consider the Book of Abraham a true translation from egyptian, anything goes…
"Our Father is gracious and willing to forgive a host of offenses — even those perpetrated by those who think they "know" and who, upon that basis alone, persecute, deride and vilify His saints and representatives, the prophets. "
Nobody here is vilifying God´s saints. You are not considered God´s saints, sorry. Those who think they know??????? Who is always saying "i know the church is true, i know this, i know that, etc."
Oooo, i get it, you´re chastizing yourselves who have vilified the Bible, the teachings of the Apostles, the writings of the Church Fathers, and every single Christian religion in the world, and their pastors. You have mocked the Christian doctrines since your inception. So, you´re the ones doing the vilifying. You´re right, Christ will forgive that multitude of sins, if you repent.
"The prophets have ALWAYS been misunderstood and condemned" Is that proof he is a prophet of God? Persecution complex, anyone?
"Mormons, Christians, Jews and others all have MUCH to learn regarding Deity. We can start by being modest and forgiving."
No, you can start by opening the Bible and letting it speak for itself. BTW, don´t put yourselves in the same boat with Judaism and Christianity, two monotheistic religions. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion, nothing to do with the other two.
"I think even grossly misguided and ignorant Christians and Jews will be looked upon mercifully by a loving God who understood that His children strained in darkness."
Ok, question: Why bother preaching? Leave them ignorant, they would be better off according to your logic. You also forgot to put mormons on that list.
". He will judge all people by their works and by the light and knowledge they were privy and willing to receive."
Yes, we will be judged according to our works, but you know what, when i get to be judged God won´t see my miserable life of sin, He will see the perfect life of Christ instead. We are saved by faith through Grace.
"Even if ALL the Mormon claims are true, that places them only a fraction of a smidgen closer to Deity than the rest"
If ANY mormon claim is true, i would be absolutely horrified. What a lie, you consider yourselves to know much, much more than the rest of the religious world that supposedly remains in darkness… and if you´re not sure if ALL mormon claims are true, how do you know which ones aren´t? Silly me, i thought you had a prophet who talked directly to god and didn´t have to rely on the wisdom of men. I also thought you had the fulness of the gospel. Maybe it is just a little fulness…
"The distance between prophet and pervert, murderer and martyr is a tiny measure, indeed."
How do you despise the discernment of God like that? False prophets like Joseph Smith were never man of god to begin with, they just took advantage of Him to fulfill their lusts.
"We are ALL fallen creatures, but for the GRACE of God!"
What does that even mean? I think you should replace Grace for Glory…
"that divine collective of Beings(…)All the Gods are One."
How creepy! That sounds so much like the Borg from Star Trek…
I own the J.S.T. Is that the version Good will? I would like to hear from your mouth the version you used.
It's a pretty amazing thing when you think about it. Not long before he declared himself a prophet and began musing on all sorts of subjects like men living on the moon, the nature of God…..really being a perfected man, the need to have multiple wives if one wanted to attain the highest level of Mormon heaven, Joseph Smith was running about the country side at night with a magic rock trying to find buried treasure. He even got arrested for his activities. This was a guy who put his magic rock in his hat and by shoving his face into the hat to exclude any light, was able to translate Reformed Egyptian into English without even having the gold plates that the language was written on present.
Now folks, why would anyone even listen to what this con man had to say regarding the nature of God? Smith was a guy who could tell a good story and arouse the emotions of people. He convinced the folks that these aroused emotions were a message from God testifying to the truthfulness of what Smith said and wrote. Once hooked on the emotional level, many of his followers would buy anything he said and did. The spiritually discerning among them began to question him when he changed his original Book of Commandments and sought to increase his power and status.
In the end, Smith didn't have a clue what he was talking about being a liar of the first order. The sad thing is that with all of the information available, there are Mormons that can't free themselves from the deluding spirit of Mormonism. Jesus was right when he said this kind takes a lot of prayer.
GOOD WILL,
I think you better go back and re-read the Bible, you are wrong on much of what you said.
You said
Jesus did die for everyone, but not everyone is forgiven. Only those who ask to be forgiven will be. Did you not read in the Bible where Jesus told some religious leaders, you are from your father, your father is the devil? Did you miss the part where Jesus said, Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Go back and read the book of Job, God was very harsh towards those friends of Job's who mis-represented God. So your wrong here.
You said
No this is not true, They spoke the truth and people do not want to hear the truth so they were killed for it. Go back and read the story of Elijah, He ran from Jezebel becasue she did not like what he was saying, so she wanted him dead, not she misunderstood him.
You said
How will being modest and forgiving help me learn about deity? Jesus said, If you have seen me you have seen the father, so all I need to do is look to Jesus to learn about Him, and read what God says about himself.
You said
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
You need me to provide links to FAIRLDS or replys to me on the reach out trust board, I will so you mormons who are haters. Their was a blog that was from a mormon, it was called the Mormon hater show. It was a true blue mormon who attacked me, Bill Mc, and Aaron on his blog, he even went so far as to say I was Gay and wanted to have sex with him. Many of us contacted the LDS church over His blog, it has since been shut down, and yes he was a mormon, temple mormon no less. So your wrong on that point.
You said
Sorry but according to the Bible, you cannot simply wait till Jesus returns, Then say, whoops, I was wrong, I will now repent. That is wrong.
You said
Here's the problem, You say, I think, well your thinking wrongly. Go back and read what I wrote about Job. Also the bible tells us to search the scripture's and tell us in 4 places, do not be ignorant.
You said
Wrong, Again, Jesus said, not every one that says LORD, LORD will enter heaven, but the verse goes onto say, Lord, did we not perform miracles in your name, did we not cast out demons in your name, did we not do all these works in your name, and Jesus will reply with, Depart from me your workers of evil for I never knew you. They did works in His name. Then Jesus tells the religious leaders, the ONLY WORK WE MUST DO IS TO BELIEVE ON THE ONE WHOM GOD SENT, That is the ONLY WORK WE MUST DO.
Martin,
If our bodies are resurrected fully and physically as they are now then why do we need a lot of things then, like the cardiovascular system, pulmonary system, gastro-intestinal system, etc. Will we need to eat, drink or breathe after the resurrection if we are immortal?
We do not know if, or what is in the cardiovascular system of an immortal being, but from what we LDS teach, and we do use scriptures for this, is that it is not blood as that is part of our mortal existance.
"we do use scriptures for this"
you can call that scripture if you want. None of that is in the Bible though.
"If our bodies are resurrected fully and physically as they are now then why do we need a lot of things then"
Adam and Eve were perfect and they used it all in the Garden. Who says we won´t use it after the resurrection – God is al-knowing, you shouldn´t try to be more intelligent than Him.
Ralph,
When it comes to those scriptures that you believe to be the Word of God (the Bible), I cannot stress to you enough how important it is to look at what is there before you start speculating about what isn't.
Why doesn't the Bible give us a full explanation about pre-mortal existance and the (alleged) connection between blood and mortality?
Because that's not what it wants to tell us.
If you took your 8AoF a little more seriously, you would not treat the Bible as the opinion of one of your peers who lived a very long time ago. You would listen to God speaking His Word to you.
You would accept that what He does say is more important than what He doesn't say, and how He says it and the whole box and dice.
As it is, you're scratching around in the dirt, looking for some possible connection between what the Bible teaches and what your self-qualified prophets have said as they have tried to impose themselves on the Word of God. That's exactly why Paul admonishes Timothy not to get tangled up in these useless, pointless, time-wasting, barren, unproductive, speculative old wives' tales.
Shocking and depressing though it is, the reality appears to be that the so-called Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints has no interest in getting its members to actually engage in serious thought about who Jesus was, and what kind of God he represented.
(I'm only using the past tense here to emphasise the historic nature of the revelation of God – it is something that has happened).
The OP demonstrates the appalling lack of interest in answering the most basic question – how many 'gods' are there?
Partly, I think the LDS leadership don't want to answer the question because it exposes the massive, unreconcilable rifts in their own teachings (BoM verses BoA, for example).
Partly, its because of an unholy alignment of interests with post-modernism. Put simply, people today cannot see the connection between knowing something about God, and what it means to live rightly. They see the two in completely different spheres and never the twain shall meet. This is expressed commonly by such statements as "I believe in God, but I don't see why I should go to church", or "I believe in God, but I don't see why I should marry my live-togather partner".
That's because they have no concept of the Incarnation (John 1:14). Its a peculiarly Christian concept. Jesus is the link between heaven and earth. He is fully God and fully human, and he shows us what it means to be fully human whilst, at the same time, showing us God fully. (And there's only one of him because, you guessed it, there's only One God).
Personally, I think Evangelicals have got wishy-washy with this message, and Mormonism actively opposes it (because it promotes a bizzarre conglomeration of paganism and gnosticism). Speaking from the Ev side of the fence, I really think we need to re-learn the full force, with all its implications, of Jesus' message when he declares
BLASPHEMY!
sheffiek, sorry you found that confusing. We usually assume it is obvious that we are critics of Mormonism (which attacks mainstream Christianity as a child of the Great Apostasy) by simply reading a single post.
The intent of this whole site is to expose you to the truth and to point you to the real Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
Speaking the truth is offensive? Have you ever read the Bible? If so have you ever read what Jesus and later the disciples said? They spoke the truth, but it comes across as an offense. If you saying Mormons are Christians, then either your a mormon, or you clearly do not understand Mormonism. It's the LDS prophet JS WHO CLAIMED he spoke for God almighty when God supposedly said us Christians are from the Church of Satan (Read the BoM) and said all our creeds and practices are an abomination in GODS Sight. So at the very least we should be able to defend against those sayings. Plus the Bible tells us to fight the good fight and defend the faith.
It´s always that same victim mentality – "we never offended anyone, but the whole world offends us because we are true"…
Great response, Aaron!
RickB,
If all we need to do is belive in Jesus, as you have so aptly proven from the Bible, then why were you telling me the other day that there are things we need to do as well?
Please Ralph, Refresh my memory, what exactly did I say that we must do to be saved? Outside of simple belief in Jesus.