Mormon author Orson Scott Card recently wrote a piece in the Mormon Times called “Gospel has no place for ‘mysteries’ ” (10/14/2010). In his mind, Christians who use the word “mystery” when confronted with an issue that is impossible to understand are taking the low road. He believes that the high road is understanding how “’mysteries have no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ.” “In other words,” he writes, “when we Latter-day Saints confront a ‘mystery,’ we expect it, eventually, to be resolved…as the boundaries of our knowledge are extended.”
He makes light of Christians who try to understand the Incarnation, or how God became man, because Mormons believe “that human beings are not fundamentally different from God, since we all carry within us the divine potential, and God and Christ have behind them the experience of mortality.”
There we go again, the couplet “As man is, God once was” once more at the forefront in LDS theology. According to Card, this concept is not a mystery but a fact, and the idea that we have divine substance within us—the DNA of divinity is something we’re apparently born with—is just something he assumes.
Isn’t it the epitome of ignorance to say that “original Christianity, partaking of the Old Testament as well as the New, had no difficulty seeing God as manlike (and vice versa)”? Without supplying out-of-context proof-texts, the burden of proof remains on the Mormons’ shoulders, and too often they end up pointing to pagan philosophies, liberal theologians, or Eastern Orthodox thinking to support their case–to no avail. But lest the reader think that Card is advocating that Mormons understand everything, he writes, “Any Mormon who says ‘we have all the answers’ really doesn’t get it.”
My goodness, isn’t this exactly what Christians are saying when they use the word “mystery”? Certainly Christians understand that it’s impossible to grasp the concept of eternity, comprehend every nuance of the Trinity, or fully explain the sovereign will of God. Obviously an incomprehensible God cannot be fully understood by finite minds which are built with many limitations. But who says that God’s people won’t understand more in the next life as “mystery” becomes “knowledge” and we begin to see Him as He really is? Card’s argument sure smacks of the Straw Man logical fallacy.
His rant against “mystery” is meaningless tripe since he admits that Mormons also don’t have the answers to their mysteries. This can be seen at the end of the article when he writes, “The true statement is, ‘There are clear answers to all questions, and someday we will learn both the questions and the answers.’” If the questions are what Mr. Card needs, I can clear this part up with just a few questions about Mormonism of my own:
- Who was the first God? I’m not asking about Heavenly Father or the name of His God, but I’m searching for the one who started the whole domino effect. Wouldn’t it be nice if we knew that God’s name? Perhaps this is the God that ought to be worshipped.
- Which came first: the first God of all time or physical matter? It matters.
- Was God the Father once a sinner since He is “fundamentally” no different than we? If so, then why does God require so much from us if He failed before we did? Is God a hypocrite?
- How can God be “everlasting to everlasting God,” as Psalm 90:2 puts it, if He wasn’t always God, as Card advocates in his article?
- Will the oldest child on every God’s earth always be the Savior? Will that child’s brother always lead a third of the spirit brothers and sisters astray and be cast out of heaven? If so, that sure sounds like foreordination or election, a concept typically mocked in Mormonism.
- Moving away from the topic of God, how is it possible to “do all you can do”? I’m referring, of course, to 2 Nephi 25:23, which says we’re “saved by grace after all you can do.” Isn’t it possible that you could always do a little more than what you think your best allows? So please explain this concept in a way that isn’t contradictory.
I believe Mr. Card is hiding behind “mystery” more deeply than what he accuses Christians of doing. But perhaps there’s a Mormon reading this who would like to help make one of these mysteries a little less mysterious for the rest of us who are apparently baffled.
This is a pretty typical Mormon shell game. That is, criticize Christians for doing what Mormons do but call it something else. It's a close brother to the Mormon game of "shroud" where-by they use the same terms to "sound Christian" but have a totally different (hidden) Mormon meaning. The Mormon mystery paradigm exits at least in part because of the Mormon practice of temporary revelation. Much is made in Mormonism about the fact that they have on-going continuous revelation(s) that they receive from the Mormon god, therefore making their spirituality very much superior to Christians who tend to be quite cautious about extra Biblical revelation. "Temporary revelation" is the Mormon practice of changing doctrines, teachings and practices to suit the current cultural climate in which Mormons find themselves. It really is a revelation of convenience. I think that's the real mystery in Mormonism.
The Christian Church early on had to deal with people who spoke of and revealed mysteries. One of these groups of people in the second century were known as the Montanists. Although many were enamored with these folks, Serapion the bishop of Antioch said about them that "the working of the lying organization called the New Prophesy is held in abomination by the whole brotherhood in the world." What the bishop and others objected to was that the Montanus would prophesy in a frenzy without engaging the rational mind, "contrary to the manner which belongs to the tradition and succession of the church from the beginning." The Montanist prophets refused to submit to the bishops and church leaders who sought to practice discernment regarding the prophetic words. There was a real danger that these prophetic utterances would be held in higher esteem than the Scriptures. False prophesy was a real concern.
The bottom line is that the Church had a real challenge in not quenching the Spirit but at the same time exercising discernment concerning prophesy and "revelation".
Joseph Smith wasn't the type that was going to submit to some Church authority or accept guidance. To Mormons, this is a very attractive feature of Smith and Mormonism. The legacy of Mormonism is a free flowing, blue sky type of state of mind were mysteries are revealed, resolved and then restated leaving in its wake a confusion of Babel that does little to enlighten the Mormon masses but does cause a great deal to excite them. The emotional energy coming from this excitement of revelation is the fuel that drives Mormonism and the cloud of exhaust it crteates keeps the faithful permanently hidden from the truth.
"His rant against 'mystery' is meaningless tripe since he admits that Mormons also don’t have the answers to their mysteries"
The mormon school of doublespeak shows its fruits again. Add that to the fact they don´t get tired of saying they are better than other churches because they have a living prophet. Big deal, to have prophets that don´t prophecy anything. The Mark Hoffman episode comes to mind, as a proof their leaders don´t have any guidance at all, except for the guidance they receive from their PR company.
"The legacy of Mormonism is a free flowing, blue sky type of state of mind were mysteries are revealed"
That bugs me to no end. That free-flowing stuff only served to benefit Joseph Smith and the church leadership, and to take people away from orthodox Christianity… What other purpose has that served? When has the people benefited from such thing – especially now that everything has to be done by the book, oh, not the scriptures, the church manuals that dictate every single step they take. It´s like the Jewish traditions that went beyond the law. So, no flexibility at all for the members, and the church is so much run as a corporation that there´s no room for spontaneity!!!
That´s left the church absolutely dead emotionally and spiritually – the mormon church is so "radical" against tradition but only keeps its multi-generation members because of it – and the new people that get baptized are kept because they were deceived into accepting subjective spiritual experiences as confirmation of truth, and that´s always used as a weapon against them(if you don´t keep your covenants you are under Satan´s power) – that keeps on going until the church becomes the tradition… no changing, no embracing new doctrines(since the prophets don´t prophecy anymore, let alone receive any new revelation), no new hymns, no new anything.
I´ve even heard many times from the pulpit leaders reminding the members that they should be happy for being mormons and having the "restored" gospel. Seriously.
" The legacy of Mormonism is a free flowing, blue sky type of state of mind were mysteries are revealed, resolved and then restated leaving in its wake a confusion of Babel that does little to enlighten the Mormon masses but does cause a great deal to excite them."
I´ve seen much more excitement from Harry Potter fans waiting to have the mysteries of the previous book solved in the next…
Good luck getting any LDS to answer this topic, They will not answer the easier but still hard questions, they surly wont reply to this.
I know that Mormons aren't to much into the Bible unless it's "translated properly" (whatever that means) but the Apostle Paul makes a comment on this idea of mystery. He says in First Corinthians 13:9-12.
I've just started following Mormon Coffee because I have a very deep, very odd fascination with the Mormon faith. Namely, I don't understand any of it and it just makes me so frustrated sometimes. Particularly with the doublespeak and arguments from Mormons and just some of the things they use as "testimony" — especially when it comes to the idea that they are Christians. I do believe that they believe they are Christians, but I also believe that most of them don't know any better and don't realize, truly, what their faith is about.
"I don't understand any of it and it just makes me so frustrated sometimes."
That´s the idea, you´re not supposed to understand. You have to receive a feeling that tells you the Book of Mormon is true, and that confirms that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the church is the only true church on the face of the earth.
After that all you have to do is to obey as you are told, because understanding doctrine isn´t important for one´s salvation.
How true! One of my best friends is Mormon and I've tried to engage her in conversation several times but on my end, I just give up. I mean, I'm not trying to preach to her or convert her and she's not doing it to me but when her answer is, I just know it's true, I can't even — react to that. I mean, that's exactly what she said, that she read through the BoM and prayed and feels that it's true.
And I always want to say, well, you know what? I've prayed and prayed and I know that it's not true. So how does that work then, hmn?
I got a real rude awakening to the mind-set of people caught in cults when I began this gig almost three years ago. I've finally come to peace and don't get as frustrated as I used to. That whole deal with the "feeling" being the confirmation of the truth is the real hook in Mormonism. They have convinced themselves that the feeling is an answer to prayer and that God has spoken directly to them. Those of us who don't buy the "feeling as a test of truth and the voice of God" are seen as not being as connected spiritually. And here's the other part of the equation, any negative feelings about Mormonism are seen as a deception from Satan. So the door is closed and locked to any form of honest inquiry. For some Mormons it's a real emotional/mental mess and very difficult for them to extract themselves from it. For others who have doubts and see all of the flim flam the reaction is often anger and for some rage when they uncover the truth.
My friend Andy Watson just reported to me that two people he witnessed to almost a year ago have recently come to him and said they had left the Mormon church. Andy had thought it was pretty much a lost cause with these guys and that his efforts had been fruitless. He is praising God for His faithfulness in claiming those He has called.
Sarah, i´m an ex-mormon and i think i know why your friend is reacting like that.
As Falcon said, the Mormon church defines for you your spiritual experiences and if anything special happens while a person is "investigating"(or is already a member) the church will tell her that it is the Holy Ghost manifesting to her that the church is true. To make sure the members don´t get influenced by outside sources they will say something like, "God blesses people from other churches as well because He loves all of His children, but only our church has the priesthood authority, only our church has living prophets", etc.
After you buy into all of that, you associate every good feeling/experience to the "truthfulness" of the church and its spiritual gifts. They will then associate bad feelings with Satan, and his efforts to draw you away from the "truth".
So, when someone starts asking questions that put the church in a bad light, or that question the church´s "truthfulness" you will feel very bad about it, and that feeling will immediately prompt you to ignore the questions, and to not think about it, to drive that feeling away.
I was like that, and i attribute the opening of my eyes to God, that opened my understanding little by little through various sources. I recommend you to not confront your friend, but to ask questions that she won´t perceive as negative in regard to the church, that will make her think critically, and then pray that God will also open her understanding. Otherwise, if you try to say that the church is false, etc. she might not even want to come close to you anymore.
Maybe you could start asking her, for example, "if you saw a friend drop 50 bucks, would pray to God to know if you should give it back or not? – No, because God has already revealed that stealing is wrong. So, shouldn´t we know what God has already revealed before accepting new teachings, to see if they don´t contradict?"
That´s a simple example that will start making cracks at the wall the church put around her to protect her from the real world outside. Besides, you could pray that her own experience with the church will lead her to question it – it´s a possibility.
Of course, you are in the best position to know what is the best approach, those are just some suggestions…
Also, as you do that, it helps to use the teachings of the current mormon leaders(they contradict themselves all the time, so you can use it to make her think, and she won´t lightly dismiss an apostle´s teaching – it will also show her that you care, because you´ve got to care to have to go through so much bad teaching to help her)
these are the latest conference talks: http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239…
Read through some of them and try to find something that could be helpful to start to get her thinking.
This goes along with the example i gave you:
"The Lord has commanded us to search the scriptures,to feast upon them, and to treasure them up. As we earnestly search and ponder the word of the Lord, we will have His Spirit with us. We will become acquainted with His voice.
Soon after I was called to be a stake president, our stake presidency received training from an Area Seventy. During the training, I asked a question to which he responded, “That is a good question. Let’s turn to the Church Handbook of Instructions for the answer.” We then went to the handbook, and there was the answer to my question. A little later in our training, I asked another question. Once again he responded, “Good question. Let’s turn to the handbook.” I did not venture to ask any more questions. I thought it best to read the handbook.
I have thought since that the Lord could give a similar response to each of us as we go to Him with concerns or questions. He could say, “That’s a good question. If you will review Alma chapter 5 or Doctrine and Covenants section 76, you’ll remember that I have already spoken to you about this.”
Brothers and sisters, it is contrary to the economy of heaven for the Lord to repeat to each of us individually what He has already revealed to us collectively. The scriptures contain the words of Christ. They are the voice of the Lord. Studying the scriptures trains us to hear the Lord’s voice."
(Gospel Learning and Teaching, by David M. McConkie)
source – http://new.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/gos…
Thank you so much for all these examples and thoughts. I've been struggling with it because of course I'm not about to tell her that she's wrong — no one wants to be told that! And I absolutely value her friendship. I've been praying about it, and I will continue to pray about it.
Since I've just found this website, I've been reading so much and moving off this site to others and everything. So I really appreciate the comments and the conversation and everything that takes place here.
How much do you know about mormonism?
This is a good debate between Walter Martin and a mormon guy(i don´t remember where from), on the differences between the two.
Walter Martin is merciless on this one. Very much worth listening!
http://podcast.fightingforthefaith.com/fftf/F4F07…
"The devil is the father of lies, and he is ever anxious to frustrate the work of God by his clever imitations"
(Dallin H. Oaks, Two Lines of Communication)
Oaks is absolutely right. Too bad he doesn´t know the mormon church is that clever imitation.
Sarah said
Do you believe Hell is real? Do you believe if your Mormon friend dies not knowing the real Jesus, then she will go to hell? If you believe yes to either of those, then the best thing you could do it tell her she is wrong. To not try and do as the Bible says, Turn a sinner from the error of their ways is to simply allow her to remain in darkness.
Then when you say, I'm praying about if I should tell my friend is wrong or not, then simply read your Bible. Jesus told people they were wrong, He said to the religious leaders, You do err and not know scripture. If He told people they were wrong about scripture, then we can also. Christians never say, I need to pray and ask God if I can rob a bank, or sleep with my wifes, best friend, or kill someone. Sounds crazy since we know what scripture tell us, but scripture is clear also, Jesus told people they were wrong, and we need to fight the good fight, contend for the faith, and turn sinners from the error of their ways.
I know I would be more than happy to give you my email address, and do my best to help you talk with your mormon friend. I can answer questions for you and give you exact quotes and send you info, you tell your friend your doing your homework and share the gospel with her. Just let me know.
"Clever imitation"………..good description of Mormonism. I was looking at the front of a Mormon temple one time and above the doors was written something like; "Dedicated to God and His Holiness". Now something positive immediately welled-up inside me and just as quickly it occurred to me that Mormonism isn't a perfect counterfeit but it is an effective counterfeit. Because when I was having these positive emotions it was about the God I know and serve and not the counterfeit god Mormons would be thinking of. This "god" being referred to there was not "God". NonMormons, who don't know and understand Mormonism, would have been using the same reference point that I used but they wouldn't know the difference.
There's enough of a spirit of Christian revivalism, piety and sincerity in Mormonism to fool people into thinking that Mormonism is just like Christianity. Mormons do little to discourage this impression.
Mormons don't trouble themselves much with the mysteries of their religion. They are taught to follow their leaders because the leaders would never lead them in the wrong direction. By contrast Walter Martin use to say, "Question everything anyone tells you, including me!" Quite a difference.
" Turn a sinner from the error of their ways is to simply allow her to remain in darkness. "
Rick, while i agree that she has to tell the truth, i think we should also remember that it is the Holy Ghost´s job to change her friend´s heart.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin. Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
So, she doesn´t need to directly confront her that way, but i do agree that she should preach the gospel to her using the Bible(salvation by faith through grace vs. salvation by a person´s merits) , and she can do that without creating hostility, planting the seed and having faith that the Holy Ghost will do His job.
The fact that her friend accepts the Bible is already a huge bridge – they can sit down sometime and she could ask her questions about clear passages that preach the gospel and compare them to mormon teachings, and let her friend see for herself how it is that those two don´t match.
She could go with her to church, and then invite her friend to go with her to her church, that would be a very interesting opportunity to talk about their religious views in a comfortable setting.
There are many ways of telling the truth without being hostile, and you can´t force the gospel down anybody´s throat anyway.
I say that because as a mormon missionary i met with Evangelicals, but their words didn´t make sense to me, and when they told me about salvation by faith i would shout back "faith without works is dead" not even realizing what i was saying. Looking back i really wish an Evangelical Christian would have sat down with me and gently explained the gospel using the scriptures, because i could only make sense of the new testament through the mormon lenses.
So, Sarah, tell her the truth as the Holy Spirit guides you, with love.
In this blog i´m blunt when talking to some mormons because those mormons that post here don´t even stop to rationally consider the points being made in the articles to try to have a decent dialogue about it, they just get all offended and start posting in their spin-apologetic robot-mode, spouting the same old arguments that they don´t even stop to think about. In my mission i had the specific concern to not become a robot like every other missionary, and i think i was successful to a certain extent, but anyways, I´m always blunt to those, even face to face. I´m also definitely rude when i detect intentional deceitful scripture twisting and doublespeak.
It´s interesting to also note that Jesus was only confrontational with the Jewish leaders, the ones that weren´t doing their job as shepherds of the people, the hypocrites, the ones that did the works to be seen by men, the ones who despised the law of God and replaced it with their own made-up traditions:
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat."
Mat 15:3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Mat 15:6 (…) So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
Mat 15:8 "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mat 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
While Jesus was patient, loving and caring to those that were meek, despised, lost.
Quite a difference indeed.
Walter Martin said that because he wasn´t worried about submitting people to his authority. He was worried about leading people to Jesus.
Sarah, i also recommend you this video about the LDS law of eternal progression by James White – that doctrine is the spinal cord of mormon theology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAfLyPIYIsA
f_melo said
While I agree that this is true, the thing I would add is, The Holy Ghost cannot help her if she has no one to tell her, what I mean is, Take the example from the Bible in the Book opf Acts.
The Holy Spirit guided Philip to speak with this man, then the man said, how can I learn unless someone guides me.
This is the sam ething with Sarah, The Holy spirit will use her, if the Holy spirit simply spoke to her friend telling her her faith in mormonism is wrong, LDS would tell her it's the devil.
I'm not saying witness to her like we do, plus many people dont know me off this board, I'm very gentle with the LDS who really want to know and talk, I'm like this in person with the ones that only want to control their Mormon partner and not allow them to talk. I also aggree she should go through the Bible with her friend apart from the BoM.
I agree you cannot force the gospel down someones throat, and I never said, witness to her in a hostile manner.
Unlike the EV's you meet as a mormon, I try and take them through the Gospel, you see me do it hear, I quote scripture and even asked the LDS to search the scriture and lets talk about the purpose of the temples, Of course they did not want to.
Growing-up Catholic and attending Catholic school I became quite comfortable with the concept of "mystery". What's the big deal anyway? That's where faith comes into the picture. I never anticipated knowing or understanding everything about God or how He established and manages the universe. I'm content with that. Doesn't the Bible say something about His thoughts not "……..being your thoughts". In Second Peter 3:15-16 we read:
Sarah, I found great relief and enlightenment from Steve Hassan's Releasing the Bonds presentation on YouTube for the Exmormon Conference 2008. Our neighbors are Mormon and being from the Bible Belt, I knew absolutely nothing about Mormonism except that I knew they believed they were more holy (which is ok I guess.) Studying from Mormon Research Ministry, Mormon Coffee, lds.org, and listening to Heart of the Matter, a call-in show where Mormons often present their point of view, has taught me a great deal. Understanding mormonism from the psychology of mind control, has taken the sting out my heart and given me a greater sense of compassion and understanding. Inducement of phobias, 'Teerrrribbblle things will happen if you don't 'fill in the blank', is one trick they use. Also, my neighbor lost a family member, as she cried, she said, 'I hope I am worthy.' I explained I was covered with God's righteousness (my debt paid.) The guilt (burden) that drives them is that they may not be good enough. Please believe me if anyone on earth should go to heaven based on works, it would be her, her husband, and family. The fear that she will be separated from those she loves in the after life, drives her every day, every minute. She is exhausted, yet thrilled that they are among the saints (special.) I am Lutheran Missouri Synod, we believe we are sinners and saints simultaneously. I encourage you to learn more about Mormonism because it taught me so much about my faith, seriously, doctrinally, archeologically, historically, linguistically, as Shawn McCraney would say, 'every itically.' Cults use 'thought stopping' techniques. My recommendation is to speak of 'other groups'. Plant seeds, and love your friend. They have an 'us vs. them' mentality. Try not to take it personally.
"OSC defines what he means in his article by the use of the word ‘mystery’. Basically his definition is that in the LDS perspective there are things we do not know or understand now, but we will learn all the answers to them later; contrast to Traditional Christianity where if it is a mystery of/from God then there may be an answer for it or there may not, it does not matter."
That comparison is useless, it´s the same thing as Eric explained in the article:
"My goodness, isn’t this exactly what Christians are saying when they use the word “mystery”? Certainly Christians understand that it’s impossible to grasp the concept of eternity, comprehend every nuance of the Trinity,(…) "
"there are many Traditional Christians out there that do believe that even after the resurrection and they get to heaven not all of the answers will be given."
Now you´re just speculating, besides mormon themselves have no clue how things will really work on the other side, since you believe that "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."(D&C 130:18-19)
How is that advantage going to be counted – for all you know there will be different levels of knowledge. So while you believe all things will be revealed you don´t really know that at all – it´s just an assumption on your part.
1)"We don’t know" Good answer – that´s indeed a mystery.
"you only have one father who you give the praise and accolade as being your father" – That doesn´t invalidate the question though.
"it comes to Mothers’/Fathers’ Day it is the immediate parents that one usually gives credence to. " – All people who have had children are acknowledged on those dates. I´ve given credence to my grandparents before on those dates… there´s no rule saying you can´t. Terrible comparison.
2)"We don’t know and right now it does not matter." I know, it´s not important for your salvation, just what i´ve been saying here.
3) Was Heavenly Father a sinner? Don’t know.
4)"was there any time at all you were not human from conception to now?" Then i have to ask you, are you a god at the moment, so that you can later teach your children you were eternally god? If you are god, you should know all those answers, because god is al-knowing… hmm…
"isn’t Psalms more songs and poetry than ‘solid’ scripture" Fail! That´s found other times in the Bible outside of Psalms, and even in your very own Book of Mormon!
Mormons definitely don´t understand the meaning of the word "unchanging".
“Have you never heard or understood? Don’t you know that the Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of all earth? He never grows faint or weary. No one can measure the depths of his understanding” (Isaiah 40:28)
Can i say the same about you – by your logic then now you are an everlasting god. What blasphemy!
5) "We don’t know the answer to this"
6) "Don’t really know how to answer this question."
" but Heavenly Father and Jesus do as They know our strengths and weaknesses." That´s the normal mormon response… i feel really sad when i read/hear this – you live with the insecurity of never being sure, you don´t know the peace that Christ gives.
"All I can say is that the answer to ALL of these questions WILL be given to us at one point or another(…)" Let us know if they ever are. Christians have no reason to believe otherwise(as Falcon already pointed out)… but you know, nobody really knows how things will be exactly in Heaven, so… your arguments are mostly speculation.
Balance: 5 don´t knows and a bunch of unfounded speculation – "we thank thee oh god for a prophet to guide us in these latter-days"(i honestly suggest you change the lyrics of that song, until your prophet takes the seer stone out of the vault and start giving you some answers).
"What's the big deal anyway?"
Answer: Godhood. If you are going to become a god, you had better be al-knowing.
"Lutheran Missouri Synod"
I love listening to the "Fighting for the Faith" podcast done by Chris Rosebrough(a Lutheran that came out of the Nazarene Church), he used to talk a lot about what was going on with the Lutheran Missouri Synod… He has a great discernment ministry, and helped me a lot to start grasping the scholarly defense of the inerrancy of the Bible, reliability of the Gospels – apologetics in general. Great stuff!
One "mystery" we can examine in Christian vs. Mormon terms is the "mystery of the incarnation". The Bible is pretty clear. It says in Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.' That's pretty straight forward, isn't it? But not content with what the Bible says and in full prophetic mode Brigham Young said that Jesus was conceived when the Mormon Heavenly Father had physical sex with the Virgin Mary. It seems the more disgusting and revolting an idea the more some Mormons embrace it. That makes it super spiritual and only for the truly enlightened Mormon to understand.
That's what happens when these so called prophets start feeling their oats and think that every idle thought that passes through their mind is revelation from God. Let's not forget about the mystery of whether or not life exists on other planets. Joseph Smith cleared that up by revealing that the moon was occupied by men that were six feet tall and dressed like Pilgrims. Or what about the mystery of men occupying the sun revealed by Brigham Young.
Mormonism has a fine tradition of kookerie. This is what happens when people stop thinking and base their spirituality on their feelings. While feelings are apart of our religious/spiritual experience, they don't determine the answers to mysteries.
Sarah, Someone like F_melo can tell you better than I if I am wrong here or not, But from my experience of Talking with LDS in person, and on-line at websites like this one and others. If you read books to help you understand Mormonism better, people like the Tanners or Bill Mc, or Walter Martin, Etc, Never tell the Mormons you read these books.
In my experience I always get the same reaction, Your not thinking for yourself and your not doing honest study, they claim I am only reading a#ti- Mormon books and then from that point they tend to shut down and never really listen, more a nod the head and move on type thing. It's fine to read them and learn from them, but just dont mention your reading them. Just a thought to help you out.
I agree 100%.
I apologize. I agree 100%. If you mention these websites, your friend will believe you are 'against' mormonism. I love mormons. I do not love mormonism. Our sons were best friends. At four or five years old, going for a walk, I said something about 'tadpoles' in the creek. My friend's little boy said, 'We go to temples. My mom and dad were married in the SLC temple.' I said, 'We go to churches.' My friend's little boy said, 'All other churches are Satan.' I called my friend and she said, 'We never teach our children to say any such thing.' He must have learned it in nursery school is my best guess. I had to learn because when they say God and Jesus, theirs are separate. Our Jesus is God. Their Jesus was once a man who progressed to Godhood. Ours was always God, perfect and without sin who did not progress, but was always sinless. When my son's friends talks of God, we are using the same words with different meanings. This is where my journey began. We are both talking and agreeing we are both Christians yet we are praying to completely different Gods. They believe in progressing to become God.
Sarah,
One thing you can do to witness to your friend is continue to come to this blog and simply read what the Christians ask the Mormons, and look at the lack of answers we get from these guys. If the hard core devoted to the death Mormons cannot answer simple questions, then maybe it will really get your Mormon friend to think.
I opened up a dialogue again with my friend. And it's incredibly frustrating, as I figured it would be. I'm trying to choose my words carefully when all I want to do is go No No No No NO that's wrong.
That's exactly what I've been doing. I have read a lot. Unfortunately, I have not read the Book of Mormon and, quite honestly, have little desire to do so. And I certainly wouldn't tell my friend what I'm reading for obvious reasons. This blog is definitely beginning to help me, as are some others that I've found.
What I'm struggling most with right now is her argument regarding Biblical translations. So I pointed out that it's good that the Bible has been translated, that it has source material. And I asked how she can use that argument for the Bible when that argument doesn't hold up to the Book of Mormon, seeing as there was only one "translation" and no source material or anything. She said she simply believes that the BoM is true.
She says: So how can I use the argument on the Bible and not on the Book of Mormon? Because there is only one English translation, there is nothing else to compare it to, and I believe it.
How can I possibly respond to that except to say, there is only one English translation because Joseph Smith made it all up?
Eric said, "…..perhaps there's a Mormon reading this who would like to help make one of these
mysteries a little less mysterious for the rest of uswho are apparently baffled."
Eric, this is just what earlier Mormon leaders , following the example of their mentor Joseph Smith,
in fact did, i.e. they revealed truths about God that had been hidden from mankind. Brigham Young
Parley Pratt, and others as members of the leadership were unabashed at this . Today,while BYU
professors might delve into behavior, the Prophet and Apostles unlike their predecessors, are
apparently unwilling .
cont.
There is much to be said about not being infatuated with speculating on spiritual matters,
or " going beyond what is written " [ 1Cor.4:6 ] . It seems that churches today that proclaim
they are the true church of Jesus Christ , and who have a prophet at the top type of an
arrangement, love to advertise that they are the only "channel of communication " from
God to man. One such organization has publically proclaimed it is the only one which
reveals "the deep things of God" . [ the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ] . We would
expect the Mormon prophet to do this also . Maybe I've missed his recent disclosures on
the mysteries of God .
ww
Mormonism is a man centered, ego driven religion and has been from the beginning. Joseph Smith claimed that God told him not to join any Christian denomination and that their creeds were an abomination. And wouldn't you know it, Joseph was to start his very own new religion that would restore original Christianity…….because the current brand was just not up to snuff. Joseph was unlike the current brand of Mormon leaders because, unlike them, he knew everything. There wasn't a subject that he couldn't wax eloquent about and offer his definitive opinion. Bring him a parchment and he could tell you what it said. Come up with a skeletal remains and he could tell you who it was and give you the person's history. No, Joseph Smith never met a mystery he couldn't solve.
Now here was a guy who had a rather poor track record of finding buried treasure with his magic rock, he never did find any despite all of his attempts, yet he could tell folks all kinds of fantastic stories which they were quite impressed with. By all accounts Joseph Smith was a self-promoting blow-hard with a gift for spinning yarns and telling tall tales.
But the poor leaders of today are caught in an age where people can actually check things out and were modern science has a way of debunking fantastic claims in short order. So Mormon "prophets" have to stick to the well tread path of "be faithful to the church", "pay your tithes" and "live the word of wisdom" in lieu of prophetic predictions and actually seer type discernment (Hoffman affair).
So while our Mormon leader cited in the above article tries to make a case for Mormon spiritual superiority in the area of "mysteries", he's just living off the gullibility of the faithful Mormons who won't question anything and will swallow everything coming out of Salt Lake City.
Falcon, your perspective on sincere Mormons who unfortunately won't question what their
leadership in Salt lake City says , seems to be accurate. In their striving to serve God, they
have been detoured as it were, to " follow the prophet" and "when the prophet speaks the
debate is over ". May they awaken to the great truth that in Jesus alone they have a prophet.
In Jesus alone can they be worthy to enter God's eternal presence, He alone can be their
"recommend" .
ww
Hello Sarah, Well I am here to help you, I care deeply for Mormons, More than they care to believe. A little info about me. I have been on this blog since day one, and was here answering questions in the Q/A section before this blog was started. I am not leaving here till I die or the rapture happens. I dont answer every topic and do not have answers for every question. But I do my best. I did have a blog on Mormonism, but stopped because I am really super busy, I reply on this blog, am witnessing on a couple of atheist blogs, http://www.interested01.blogspot.com
I am in college for my associates degree, am working 2 jobs, married going on 17 years and have 3 kids, all home schooled just for starts. I am providing you links with a brief description of what they cover. This should help you out a lot and I will gladly talk to you via email, or any one for that matter. I also have a link at the very bottom giving my testimony if you need it. Also You can tell your friend no, your wrong, Yes he told people they were in error of scripture. If people are not told why and how they are wrong, then they will think they are correct. I provide a link to what Early LDS prophets said about us and exactly what they thought. It's rough stuff they think and taught about us. I hope this helps, and I am here to help.
I'm still waiting for an honest answer on this one. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/03/ruc…
I did this with some LDS Missionary's once, They were stumped, but smiled that I pulled this off. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2008/10/d-a…
Some question to get your friend thinking about. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2008/07/som…
I did a 3 part topic on LDS changing doctrine, here is part 1. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2007/03/lds…
Part 2 http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2007/04/lds…
Part 3 http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2007/04/lds…
Problems I found in the BoM. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/09/jar…
More strange problems I found in the BoM. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/09/bar…
Comparing the Bible to the BoM. http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/08/com…
My views on why we should be bold and blunt with LDS, Their original prophets were so bold and blunt it makes us look like cry babies now adays.
http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/08/bei…
Contention, is it really of the devil? http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/07/con…
Contradictions and problems
http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/05/con…
LDS prophets cannot agree http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/02/lds…
My calling/testimony http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2006/01/my-…
Sarah. Whatever you say, you will be met with a quick, decisive answer. In her eyes, your friend is being loving and compassionate. Try not to get your feelings hurt. In mormonism, every member is a missionary. My family went to my friend's temple for a Halloween Trunk or Treat. My mom went to a Sunday school choir recital. I went to every mom's playgroup and I loved being special, and a part of something bigger than myself. It didn't hurt that everyone seemed happy, perfect, achieving while I was just plain old me. Arguing, strategizing, memorizing bible verses, becoming a biblical scholar will not help. Believe me, I have been trying. Everyone is born with a 'true self.' To be in a group like this, you have to dissasociate your true self from the group. In the DSM4, is called dissasociative personality (See Releasing the Bonds YouTube). My mormon friend told my son, that her son and my son were spirit brothers in the pre-existence. My son was so proud to tell us that he had a 'spirit brother' and that's why they were so close. Its a fantasy where men will become gods, their wives goddesses (men can have more than one wife in the afterlife but women cannot). Their bodies in this life produce children so that they can bring the spirits from the pre-existence. In the afterlife, they can produce more children and live on their own planets. If someone told you this straight up, you would laugh. The book of mormon is a hook. They give you the milk before the meat. (If they gave you the 'meat' first, you would run.) (A baby cannot chew steak but has to drink the milk first.) There was a best selling book written about ten years before that Joseph Smith used and wars were a popular subject at the time. See The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon on YouTube or go to mrm.org. Its an hour but explains everything. Love your friend and just know that people who love mormons know what you are going through. I thought I was a good person until I met my friend. Then my flaws, ie. doing things on Sunday, drinking caffeinated drinks, not making bread from scratch every day, or going to church every Sunday became like a flashing sign on me, I am a sinner. Learning how we do not keep the Law because Jesus broke the law sometimes doesn't even help because you feel their self-righteousness which cannot get anyone to heaven. Its not about us. Love your neighbor to me meant doing four million favors. I never asked her for a favor, not once. Its a boundary issue, staying through our dinner but I would never knock on her door even when her husband came home. (He is a doctor.) Believe me. I thought I was a tough cookie until I met my friend. You will be ok. Joseph Smith told everyone to give their farms to the church and that he would divide the property. Its very much a community put everything in the pot and we will divide it up equally. When we tithe at my church, we see the budget, where the money went. When a mormon tithes 10% they must prove it like in a confession, then they give more, fast and tithing, charity, its an expensive proposition plus they never see where the money goes. They get college for free but pay for it for the rest of their lives giving 10%. There is so much to tell you, its just unbelievable. My mom tells me I am obsessed. I am not obsessed, but it is just to 'fantastic'. PS. A civilization left nothing, no bones, weapons, coins, pottery. Elephants, horses in the Americas. Its just fantastic. (Fantasy.)
The Mormon prophet talent pool is obviously not very deep these days. Not to long ago, it was thought that to be one of the apostles at the top of the Mormon heap you had to have had a visitation from Jesus. That's not the case in these days where the Mormon apostle is said to have a "testimony" of Jesus. That's quite a difference from having Jesus actually appear to them. I'm afraid these apostles and prophets of the Mormon church are kind of like old rock and roll stars or actors from long ago sitcoms who are now living off of their residuals. The residuals in Mormonism is the good will and devotion of the starry eyed Mormon faithful who believe they are hearing the oracles of the Mormon god when these guys speak. They really don't say much when they do speak these days and they certainly don't say anything to clear-up any mysteries. I would think at some point in time the everyday Mormon might get a little bit restless and want to hear from the Mormon god via the gifts and talents of the Mormon prophet. Alas it won't happen because in these days of hyper-communication systems, what someone says, even a Joe Doaks type citizen, can go around the world in an instant via the internet. The Mormon prophets and apostles, I would guess, have made a decision just to give rah rah sis boom bah speeches to the faithful who in their deluded state think they've just heard something really meaningful, deep and revelatory. It's really no mystery what the Mormon leaders are up to.
"So how can I use the argument on the Bible and not on the Book of Mormon? Because there is only one English translation, there is nothing else to compare it to, and I believe it. "
Thats a big lie! There is something to compare to, the 1830 edition of the BoM here :http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/bm.htm
There have been so many changes made to the Book of Mormon, it´s amazing how mormons are deceived, and their leaders know about it and say nothing.
These are some links to the changes:
http://mrm.org/white-and-delightsome
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm
Mormons have this concept that a bunch of monks gathered the Bible manuscript in a dark chamber and intentionally removed passages that were clear, so that people would be confused and then would submit to their authority. Nothing could be further from the truth.
1 Nephi 13:26 "And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away."
So, tell your friend that the Book of Mormon has been altered much more than "supposedly" the Bible was. If she doubts you, buy her a 1830 replica of the BoM and highlight the changes…
The Doctrine & Covenants have also been greatly altered, and big part of it was removed in 1920. This video explains it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuzmdtP5VRI
I suggest you to say something like: "I´ve considered what you said about the BoM and i did some research on it and found out that the BoM has had many changes, from the original version published in 1830 until most recently when the introduction was also changed."
The intro. of the Book of Mormon was recently changed(2007) and the implications are huge. See http://blog.mrm.org/2007/11/changing-the-book-of-…
Then you can ask her if she is being honest to you about what she was telling you. That has to have some effect in her, if she really cares about you. That has kind of worked for me in the past, not that anything changed but the person was upset for not having answers, and acknowledged a blind faith(that´s a seed that God will work with in the future). then i continued the conversation saying that i couldn´t risk the condition of my soul with blind faith, i had to have some concrete answers.
Sarah. Found something for you. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/group…
Steve Hassan's website. He was an ex-Moonie. Intelligence has nothing to do with being in a cult. We are all human and want to be accepted.
I love the idea of mentioning blind faith, however she's already admitted to having a blind faith. I've talked with her about the textual and historical and archaeological truths behind the Bible and the absence of them with the BoM and she has declared that doesn't matter to her. That she believes the BoM to be true. She said that faith and history don't coincide and shouldn't. So while that's a great way of putting things, it's also one I've already done. :/
Members today should follow this advice from BY:
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 135).
Sarah. Found this regarding guilt. Your friend cannot say, 'Oh I think you might have a point. Let me think about it.' This is her 'emotional' history and what she knows that you don't.
. Excessive use of guilt
Mormons do believe that guilt is God’s way of telling them to do better, and perfection is something they strive for. I believe Mormons tend to feel a lot of guilt. But how do you measure guilt? How much is excessive?
a. Identity guilt
1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
Individual Mormons are given special blessings in which they are invariably informed that in the previous life they were the valiant elect of God, and that that is why their spirits were sent to earth to fight for the cause of righteousness during these last days. They tend to see themselves as extraordinarily special, being the tiny minority of people who were either chosen to be born into the church or were spiritually sensitive enough to recognize it as the true church. This self-image certainly puts the bar high and can lead to excessive guilt.
2. Your family
A popular children’s song in the church says “families CAN be together forever.” But the one and only way that they can be together forever is if the family unit is “sealed” in the temple. If you were married in the temple then you are sealed to your spouse and your subsequent children will be sealed to you. But if you were not sealed in the temple, then you will lose your spouse and children upon death.
The top level of heaven is only attainable to couples married in the temple–not to individuals. If you aren’t righteous enough for that level of heaven, then you will lose your family.
If your child gets married outside of the temple, then the family chain is broken–not only will your child not be qualified for the top level of heaven, your grandchildren will not be sealed to you either.
The result of this doctrine is often a tremendous amount of guilt. If your child gets married outside of the temple, you mourn the wedding and the marriage rather than celebrate it. If your child chooses a path other than the Mormon one, then you will lose him or her forever. If your spouse doesn’t meet the strict requirements for the top level of heaven, then the only way for you to make it to the top level of heaven is with a new spouse.
Any individual member of the family who doesn’t meet the rigorous requirements of righteousness will permanently breaks up the family unit.
I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll try to express something here in the spirit that I think that Eric was getting at in his article. The topic, again, is dealing with "mysteries" within religion. A mystery is something that is difficult to understand. I believe there are things we cannot understand in our human condition, some of which will be revealed to us when we die if, in fact, we're even interested at that point. There are other things that I doubt we will understand even when we are residing with God.
It's important to reiterate the point that a mystery in Mormonism is not the same type of mystery in Christianity. That is because we are not talking about the same religion. The Mormon mystery will be different because they have a different god. In fact, Mormons believe they will be translated into gods. My understanding is that Mormons have endless speculation among themselves regarding the who, what, where and how of this translation.
So what about Christianity? In chapters 12, 13 and 14 the apostle Paul addresses spiritual dynamics and instructs the Corinthians as to how to conduct themselves when manifesting the spiritual gifts. It's here that Paul uses the term "mystery". This is what he says in chapter 14:1-5:
Maybe that´s an opening to playing that "you´re not being honest" card. Tell her that you have examined what she has said, and found out things weren´t that way at all… she has to be accountable for what she says.
Bible history is accurate, even though scholars might disagree due to one fact or another. Actually history HAS TO coincide with faith, because if Adam and Eve, the Flood, Jonah, Moses and the Exodus from Egypt were myths, Jesus Himself isn´t who He said He was, because He taught those things were true history – and God in the flesh should know, right?
"She said that faith and history don't coincide and shouldn't" – did she tell you why not?
You could also take her to task on what previous church leaders said about your faith.
Ask her something like "do you believe i´m in the church of the devil?" "Is it true that God said to Joseph Smith that my creeds are an abomination before him? How can you say stuff like that?
That would be a way to start appealing to her emotional side, since that´s what the church controls. Again, i think that would be better accomplished if done in a place where she feels comfortable, in church, for example.
I´m praying for you and i have faith that when the time is right, God is going to wake her up.
Falcon,
"I believe there are things we cannot understand in our human condition, some of which will be revealed to us when we die if, in fact, we're even interested at that point. There are other things that I doubt we will understand even when we are residing with God."
Right there – that is what OSC is talking about. To you there are 'mysteries' that will not be answered at all as you speculate in your last sentence, which I have bolded.
Where as OSC says that we LDS beleive that ALL will be answered (regardless of what the question is) at the appropriate time, most likely after the resurrection and before the Day of Judgment in my point of view.
Excellent Ralph! This will give the Mormon lurkers a real opportunity to appreciate the difference between the Salt Lake City version of Mormonism and orthodox Biblical Christianity. I'm not God, nor will I ever be God and hence I will not have the wisdom and knowledge of God. If I did have the knowledge and wisdom of God, I'd be God. Since there is one God, who is all knowing and powerful and since I'm one of His creatures that He has saved by His love and mercy, I will in eternity submit myself to Him and bask in the glory of His presence and praise Him.
Now I hate to break this to you Ralph that even in the Mormon system that you embrace, eternal progression will never allow you to have the knowledge and wisdom of the god you call heavenly father, or your great grandfather god or your great great grand father god and so on and on and on. Even in Mormonism, all of the mysteries beheld by the pantheon of Mormon gods; some gods will always have more and some gods will have less.
Ralph there's one mystery that I must admit that I don't understand and that is why you continue to reject God. God keeps knocking at your door and you won't open (the door). It is definitely a mystery how, when some Mormons hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and they get it and come to Him while it bounces off others. Andy Watson wrote to me about a week ago and told me that two Mormon men who he had witnessed to about a year ago, contacted him and said that they had both left the Mormon church and found Christ. I believe in both cases most of their direct family members have left Mormonism also. It took a year for them to sort everything out and go through the stages of leaving. We can only hope and pray that you'll come to Christ in His time.