The Salt Lake Tribune recently reported on a lecture given in Salt Lake City’s Jewish Community Center by LDS speaker Mark Paredes. A blogger for the online Jewish Journal, Mr. Paredes believes “Mormons have much more to say to Jews than do other Christians.” He sees parallels between Mormonism and Judaism “everywhere and on every level.” One such parallel Mr. Paredes detailed in his lecture was persecution. The Salt Lake Tribune reported,
“The two faiths also have suffered at the hands of various Christians.
“’History shows that the nearly 14 million members of our church, which has been the most persecuted major religion in American history,’ Paredes said, ‘do have special feelings for the 13 million members of the most persecuted religion in world history [the Jews].’
“In 2007, a Christian ministry distributed 18,000 anti-Mormon DVDs to homes throughout Arizona. The only non-LDS group to denounce the effort was the Jewish Anti-Defamation League in Phoenix. When Paredes, who was working with the LDS Public Affairs Council at the time, called the ADL’s regional office to offer thanks, one of the leaders remarked, ‘They can’t fool me, Mark. I know that the anti-Mormons of today were in many cases the anti-Semites of yesterday.’”
Does he have a modern Christian version of Kristallnacht in mind here? Is there really a parallel between the persecutions of the Jews and the Mormons? Think of the WWII concentration camps, the German gas chambers, the pogroms of Russia and Eastern Europe that resulted in the deaths of six million Jews within a span of ten years; now consider the distribution of 18 thousand DVDs in Arizona.
Within the greater context of Mormon history, Latter-day Saints have suffered true persecution for their chosen religion and political views. As Bill McKeever pointed out in a previous thread here on Mormon Coffee, Mormon historians have suggested that the number of LDS deaths due to persecution amount to “dozens” or “more than 50.” While there is no justification for religious persecution, and any loss of life is reprehensible, how can one compare fifty+ with millions?
Regarding Mr. Paredes remarks about anti-Semitism, the Salt Lake Tribune reported,
“State-sponsored anti-Semitism began, according to Paredes, in the fourth century at the Council of Nicaea. The assembled Christian bishops proclaimed that Jews are ‘odious,’ ‘detestable’ and ‘blind,’ Paredes said. ‘It is not a coincidence that the same council that condemned Jews also proclaimed the false doctrine of the Trinity, a three-in-one god that does not exist. Both Jews and Mormons reject the Trinity, and we both reject anti-Semitism as a departure from true faith in God.’”
Christians are obligated by Scripture to reject anti-Semitism as well. Anti-Semitism exhibited by Christian bishops or anyone else is wrong. Period.
However, Mr. Paredes was rather quick to cast stones at “other Christians.” Back in December, Bill McKeever participated in a discussion at Mr. Paredes’ blog. Responding to the statement that Mormons accept Jews as their “brothers and sisters in Israel,” Bill provided a couple of comments by early Mormon leaders demonstrating the early LDS view regarding the Jewish people. In hindsight, Bill says he should have prefaced his Brigham Young quote with a question asking people how they would explain the Mormon prophet’s words. This may have diffused a little of the harsh criticism Bill received merely for quoting Brigham Young. As it was, though, not one Mormon – not even Mr. Paredes – condemned Brigham Young’s comment; instead, Mormons made excuses for Young’s words.
This is what Brigham Young said:
“I would rather undertake to convert five thousand Lamanites, than to convert one of those poor miserable creatures whose fathers killed the Savior, and who say, ‘Amen to the deed,’ to this day. Yea, I would rather undertake to convert the devil himself, if it were possible. Then I say to the Elders in those regions, be not astonished if you have to see hard times. And if I had a voice that would reach the ears of all those Elders, I would say, LEAVE THEM, AND COME HOME, THE LORD DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO STAY THERE, FOR THEY MUST SUFFER AND BE DAMNED. Now, sisters, write to your husbands who are in regions where the Gospel has been preached anciently, to come home; and I say to all the Elders who are in lands where the Gospel has been preached previous to our day, come away from that people, and leave them to live and die in their sins and ignorance. For the sins of their fathers are a sweet morsel to them, and they take pleasure in their wickedness; therefore, let them alone, and come home, and preach to the Lamanites” (Brigham Young, December 3, 1854, Journal of Discourses 2:143. Caps in the original).
Another prominent Mormon said,
“The Jews have been trampled under the feet of the Gentiles for 1800 years, and they are to-day being persecuted in European nations. Why? Because that curse of God rests upon them and will rest upon them until Shiloh comes, until they are regathered to Jerusalem and re-build the city in un-belief. You cannot convert a Jew. They will never believe in Jesus Christ until he comes to them in Jerusalem, until these fleeing Jews take back their gold and silver to Jerusalem and re-build their city and temple, and they will do this as the Lord lives” (Wilford Woodruff, June 12, 1881, Journal of Discourses 22:173. On the Jews and Mormons blog, Bill accidentally attributed this statement to Heber C. Kimball.).
As is often the case, Mormons have failed to recognize (or in the case of Mr. Paredes’ lecture at the Jewish Community Center, disclose) the skeletons in their historical and doctrinal closets. Anti-Semitism has reared its ugly head in Mormonism’s history.
Furthermore, do Mormons really believe their own history of religious persecution, as opposed to that endured by “other Christians,” more closely parallels the persecution of the Jews? Christian persecution is strong and continuing even today. While “persecution of Mormons” can be seen as rampant only when Mormons redefine the word “persecution” to be akin to criticism, it is estimated that tens of thousands of Christians around the world have been — and continue to be — martyred each year for their Christian faith. Even so, I wouldn’t be comfortable drawing a comparison between Christian and Jewish persecution. Mormons and Christians both suffer for what they choose to believe; this is not parallel in any way to the organized attempted annihilation of an entire race of people.
Bill McKeever has said the comparison Mr. Paredes (and other Mormons) make between Mormon and Jewish persecution only serves to demean the awful atrocities against the Jewish people. I would have to agree.
The money quote I think in this piece was that Mormons defined criticism as persecution. These are some thin skinned folks and I can see why. Look at what they have to defend. I could come up with a quick list of about ten wacky and mind blowing aspects to the doctrine and history of Mormonism without much effort. And Christians are called to a vigorous defense of the Gospel of Jesus Christ especially as heretics and cultists are concerned. I won't spend a whole lot of time in vigorous debate and defending Christianity with someone with a religion not claiming to be Christian. I may have a discussion pointing out what the Good News is all about, but I wouldn't have to defend it in the same matter I would need to with someone claiming a "restored" gospel.
Mormons really have a "me too" syndrome going on whether it's their need to identify with people being persecuted for their religious beliefs or their need to be included as Christians.
I disagree. Bill Johnson spoke of law of non-conflict. If you are an atheist, and I am a Christian. One of us is wrong. If someone is Jewish, and I am Christian, one of us is wrong. We live in harmony because one of us is right. With mormonism, though, the claim is they are Christian just like us. And that is where conflict begins.
What I object to is the [“anti”] claim. If I disagree, I am [called a pejorative name]. I might not agree with Jewish people, but deeply respect and honor them and am definitely not anti-jewish. Nor am I anti-athiest, anti-anything. How can a mormon, an academic, let’s say doctor who specializes in research, tell himself, I cannot go to any website that is [critical of Mormonism]. At a research level of academia, if someone told you do not study, investigate, would be counter to getting you to where you are in such a high level of academia.
I understand mormons have a good childhood and want to give the same to their children. But now we have the internet, its a different life. Its not the same as when we grew up.
The quote that caught my eye was "'It is not a coincidence that the same council that condemned Jews also proclaimed the false doctrine of the Trinity, a three-in-one god that does not exist. Both Jews and Mormons reject the Trinity, and we both reject anti-Semitism as a departure from true faith in God.’” Ummmm I believe that Jews would be offended by this statement, for one of the foundations of Judaism is that there is only one TRUE God, not the mormon pantheon of gods and goddesses. It may be good propaganda in SLC, but theologically it is barren of truth.
Great point! I want to see how they answer that!
"I know that the ***********s of today were in many cases the anti-Semites of yesterday."
When i read that guy comparing the horrors of Nazi concentration camps with the distribution of DVDs, i couldn´t help but laugh. That guy is demented(and dangerous), he needs to be locked up for good.
I wonder if we could call them anti-Christians because of how they distribute thousands of DVDs over the world telling people Christianity has been corrupted and they are the only true church, and how they send thousands of missionaries to do the same.
"When Paredes, who was working with the LDS Public Affairs Council at the time, called the ADL’s regional office to offer thanks"
Oh, the ADL, also known as the Character Assassination League, no wonder those two get along so well.
Mormons have been persecuted but nevermind the fact that Joseph Smith was declared king of the earth, went parading around town with his militia-general uniform talking about how they would take over the world, etc. Mormons actually believe that – that their leaders will one day rule the world under Jesus(whatever being that will be). I agree with Sharon, nobody should be killed over religion, but to compare that to the Jewish holocaust is ridiculous not to say insulting, especially to jews! Are they looking for a buddy to pair with to increase the current on going persecution Christians and Christianity are going through on a daily basis? You can´t read the Bible in schools but i wonder if they would ban the BoM also…
How can a mormon, an academic, let's say doctor who specializes in research, tell himself, I cannot go to any website that is [critical of Mormonism]. At a research level of academia, if someone told you do not study, investigate, would be counter to getting you to where you are in such a high level of academia.
This is exactly what's done though.
In fact, this is one of the biggest arguments my Mormon friend has with me. She accused me of getting all of my information from [any site that is not LDS approved] and propaganda and that I should have turned to mormon.org or lds.org or her for real information. I said that I do go to those sites, that I AM engaging with her.
Also, she said that she has studied the Bible and other religions and the history of Christianity because she took Biblical Hebrew and classes in Old Testament and Religion. But the thing is this: she went to BYU. ALL professors at BYU must be "worthy", practicing Mormons. How can anyone claim to be well-educated and have a good education on religion when any class taken at a Mormon institution is taken through rose-colored Mormon goggles?
I agree, Violet. I dislike the "anti" term as well. I feel like anyone who opposes Mormon doctrine, anyone who stands up for the Christian faith, even with the best of intentions and no harsh words, with love and the strength of God — anyone like this is [against Mormonism or anti-it]. I shudder at the word persecution as well. Are we do believe that anyone who disagrees with the Mormon religion is persecuting them? It feels, as with most of Mormonism, incredibly self-centered and selfish.
“In fact, this is one of the biggest arguments my Mormon friend has with me. She accused me of getting all of my information from [any site that is not LDS approved] and propaganda and that I should have turned to mormon.org or lds.org or her for real information. I said that I do go to those sites, that I AM engaging with her”
Anything that isn´t issued by the Church officially is automatically considered as “anti mormon” lies, or at least uninspired personal opinions…
Christians do have a few problems with scholars as well, as many “experts” make sure to come to conclusions that “prove” the Bible to be a collection of folk-tales put together by people trying to build a history to give the people of Israel some morale… The real difference though is that the Bible has that kind of evidence the Book of Mormon will never have. Also more and more archeology has been proving the Bible to be correct, while nothing has been found yet concerning BoM peoples, and never will.
“Also, she said that she has studied the Bible and other religions and the history of Christianity because she took Biblical Hebrew and classes in Old Testament and Religion. But the thing is this: she went to BYU.”
That alone is a problem that discredits her completely. Christians don´t have to fear being excommunicated for asking tough questions. Sara, have you asked your friend what are their evidences to say that the first Christians believed God is a polygamous man that procreates for eternity? Or do you get the same “those things were only revealed in this dispensation and they were kept in the dark because it wasn´t the time for them to know yet” kind of excuse?
My neighbors are BYU-graduates too. When they first moved in, our children are the same ages, we talked every day about Mormonism. I was thrilled. Someone I can learn from, our children are going to be best friends, forever. College roommates. Its gonna be a great life.
So. I learned everything about Mormonism and my denomination and Christianity. One day she asked why I didn't believe in Mormonism and I said I wasn't comfortable with the indians with white faces and polygamy. She didn't argue. And then later I mentioned, that when a child leaves the religion, the parents sometimes disown them. She did not like that one bit and said that would never happen.
Anyway, I have learned so much on my own. And understand their point of view, and tried to step inside their shoes. Big shoes to fill. Doctor family, every relative born into the church. Its a different life than my 'live and let live' parents.
My greatest disappointment was if I asked a question, the answer generally was 'Mormon scholars don't agree with that.' And one day, we just quit talking about religion.
My friend and I are just acquaintances now. Good luck with your friend. I know it hurts sometimes. Like Dory says in Nemo, 'Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.' (hee hee.)
Or do you get the same "those things were only revealed in this dispensation and they were kept in the dark because it wasn´t the time for them to know yet" kind of excuse?
I've got that. I've also got the "I feel that it's true" and "I've prayed and feel the Holy Spirit" and stuff like that.
The truth is, when I ask the hard questions — for instance the eternal progression = polytheism question. Or the, why don't Mormons fight for polygamy on the grounds of freedom of religion since it was a revelation from God and never removed from the D&C, question — I don't get answers. I get — "I'm done talking about this." Or "I can't do this anymore; you're trying to wear me down but my faith isn't wavering." Or other things like that.
Two things that really bug me.
1. The LDS cry a river over saying we Christians persecute them because we claim they are wrong, Well have these LDS been to the fair lds website. Those LDS are all about ripping us new ones and telling us we are wrong. Have these mormons seen blogs by LDS like the Mormon hater show? If so, and I know some LDS know about it because I have pointed it out, they say nothing.
2. How come the LDS are doing to the RLDS and the FLDS, Saying they cannot be called LDS, yet thats ok, but if we say LDS are not Christians, They claim we are persecuting them. Give me a break.
Here is something that you should take note of. When people say things like Brigham Young said ( above quote) there is a lot of back pedalling they have to do. Like remind themselves of what said in the 13th article of faith If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. BY could have seen a lot of things praiseworthy of the jewish people. We don't know the historical thread behind this quote. As paul harvey would say the rest of the story. I do know that Martin Luther had a problem with the jews when he tried to convert them. Mohamed kill them until he realize they were believers in the book -I believe he started the habit of facing mecca because they would face jerusalem.
I do believe that it is persecution because in the wrong hand people are not going to see good in the LDS church. If it is the same dvd that I think it is when they mention the man in the moon 'Prophecy' there credible takes a nose dive.
Here are two things you have to remember too though.
1. Martin Luther and Mohamed never proclaimed to be true Prophets of a Christian church, which Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, all the living prophets and the presidents of the LDS church have since.
2. Someone who proclaims to be God's living prophet on earth (as those who head the LDS church claim to be) must be held accountable as speaking from God with anything they say.
You say that BY could have said lots of praiseworthy things about the Jewish people. We have shown that he said awful things. Are you saying that it's only the praiseworthy things that are "of God"? If so, then what, ever, can you trust out of an LDS prophet's mouth? How much doctrine that supposedly came from God in revelations (that are found nowhere else, not in the Bible and sometimes not even in the Book of Mormon), is then from God? How much is of man?
You can't pick and choose. It's either all or nothing.
"Or "I can't do this anymore; you're trying to wear me down but my faith isn't wavering." Or other things like that"
That´s because in her eyes you´re the voice of Satan. The church impresses that very strongly on the minds of the members, that anything critical of the Church is Satan trying to destroy your faith and make you lose your eternal promises, etc. It is a successful preventive fear tactic.
"I do believe that it is persecution because in the wrong hand people are not going to see good in the LDS church"
The question is that Christians are not working to see good in other religions, they are contending for the truth of Jesus Christ. While the Mormon Church has good programs for the youth, their theology will have eternal consequences for evil. So, if we were talking about self-improvement clubs i´d agree with you, but those matters are concerned with Eternal Salvation.
Also why would i want to advertise the "good" things about the Mormon Church and support their lies? Why would i give a reason for people to consider a church in which they will wither and die spiritually? No way!
"BY could have seen a lot of things praiseworthy of the jewish people"
Sharon was exposing the hypocrisy of the Church in such a position, and the discrepancy between the Jewish persecution throughout history and the 50! people killed in persecution against Mormons.
Another important point is that the Evangelical effort in converting Mormons never has violent undertones, but in that article, Mr. Mark Paredes is comparing Christians with Nazis(and other anti-Semites) for crying out loud! What kind of message is he sending to Mormons? That they will be rounded up and massacred by DVD sending Christians? What?!?!?!?!!?
btw, that´s another example of mormon preventive fear tactics – vilifying Christians to keep mormons from listening to what they have to say.
Honestly, you´re way off target here, Clyde.
You said a prophet must be held accountable as speaking from God with anything they say. If the Prophet repeats a news story that is not a prophecy. If he makes a request that is not a prophecy. If he makes a statement about how he feels about someone that is not a prophecy. In the quote sharon gives I will always wonder why he said it.
If you will always wonder why he said it, let me ask again —
how can you trust any instruction or doctrine or revelation from one of your LDS prophets?
It´s the same with the Bible, nobody can understand it without the prophet opening it up to us, but hey, who is going to interpret what the prophets meant? What a mystery!
Off topic:
i was reading this article of this month´s Ensign – http://lds.org/ensign/2011/01/the-historical-cont…
What bizarre way to classify the various portions of the New Testament:
"Not long after Constantine had directed the New Testament to be copied and circulated anew, the books that compose our current Bible came to be organized in their present order. This order follows a pattern set by the Old Testament. The New Testament contains the Law (the Gospels), the history of Christianity (Acts), and the Prophets (Romans through Revelation). Both the Old and New Testaments end with a promise of the Lord’s return (Malachi and Revelation). The placement of these prophetic works also emphasizes a forward-looking hope of salvation and future revelation."
weird… i don´t remember reading any of that in Eusebius´ Church History…
It´s been difficult to go through that article… sometimes it even hurts…
"Traditionally, the book of Hebrews is ascribed to Paul, although the usual introduction wherein he identifies himself as the author is not present. Regardless, the book testifies of how we can boldly come to the Lord through faith. Included in the New Testament after Paul’s letters, Hebrews is a treatise on having faith in the face of adversity."
hahahahahah… Hebrews is just THAT? Wow!!!!!!
Does anybody still wonder why Mormon scholars don´t get much credit… sigh…
Also, nowhere in that article the author comments about when and how the Bible was corrupted. No mention of hooded characters tampering with the text! Well, hopefully that will make some Mormons research about it, and hopefully they will find the truth!
This is my last comment on it – it was just too absurd, i had to share.
Well I guess we could say that the Mormons are the real Jews, right? After all BY could be Moses and the trek to Utah could be like the Jews wandering in the wilderness until they went into the "land". It's all pretty apparent. Perhaps one of our Mormon posters could pray about it and if given the burning in the bosom, it'd be true.
That's the beauty of Mormonism, anything can be true as a result of personal progressive revelation and confirming feelings. After all, isn't Mormonism the repository of all truth with the BoM equal to or better than the Torah and the Law. After all the Jews just had part of the truth.
Man, where would the world be without Joseph Smith, the man with the magic rock?
I told my friend the last line of the bible says (something like), . . If anything is added unto this book, . . . whosoever shall be written out of the Lamb's Book of Life.'
She said, 'Oh, Mormon scholars say that the entire bible is really in a different chronological order and that line means nothing.'
Clyde,
I am convinced your a mormon, Here you go again in your posts defending the LDS church while implying believers are wrong. Just be honest with everyone here and admit it. I will never stop calling you out. With that said, Clyde said
Read the Book of acts, Their is a case where a slave girl who is possessed with a demon is following Paul around telling the truth about Him, saying, this man is proclaiming the way of salvation. This Demon possessed girl was telling the truth and doing a "Good Thing" Yet Paul did not like it and rebuked the demon and had it leave the Girl.
Evil people can do good things, Hitler did some good things, yet that does not excuse all the evil he did. The LDS do good things like feed the poor or help people clean their yards or visit the sick, but they do it because they use it as an IN to preach their false gospel to others. Again READ YOUR BIBLE, Man you people, READ YOUR BIBLES, The lack of reading the word really frustrates me to no end.
The Bible tells us very clearly, do not let these people that have a different gospel enter our house and teach us.
Now thats not saying we cannot have MM's over and we talk about the differences and we share our gospel with them, it's saying we are not to let them in and teach us their false gospel. But Clyde You dont read your Bible do you? So you probably never knew this was in the Bible.
'We don't know the historical thread behind this quote.' There is always an excuse and it always errs on the side of BY, JS, or anything LDS. How can anyone view the You Tube video, The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon and still believe the BOM is the most correct book on earth? There is always a reason or excuse for everything. Our faith is based in evidence. The bible says do not trust your feelings. Everything about mormonism is feelings. Feelings can lead you astray or into a cult. The Jonestown people had the best of intentions. They were creating a utopia. BY built a mansion (and another for his favorite wife) once he came to SLC. He was a very rich man with fifty-four wives and he could do no wrong. Joseph Smith can do no wrong. There is an excuse, a rose-colored glasses mentality about mormonism, but if someone presents the truth about the bible, and shows, that we are saved by grace, through faith, not by works that no man should boast.', then we are confused. Grace is all through the bible. Its not about dying with a gun in your hand. That's not martydom. Compare his last words with our polish Pope's.
Pope John Paul II's final words: 'At about 3:30 in the afternoon, speaking in Polish in a feeble voice, John Paul said, "Let me go to the Father's house." '
JS: Smith's comments upon deciding to go to Carthage for incarceration and to face legal prosecution. As quoted in [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/135/4a Doctrine and Covenants 135:4; also quoted as "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning. I have a conscience void of offense toward God and toward all men. If they take my life, I shall die an innocent man, and my blood shall cry from the ground for vengeance, and it shall be said of me, 'He was murdered in cold blood.'"
Reading his letters to Emma from another jail in Missouri? He was in two jails? Got that from the lds.org when something about his character in holographs. Wow.
The message and the messenger are 2 different things. What the messenger says does not at times have to do with messages. Even the apostles had their own opinions.
I do know that what I convey to be true not everyone is going to believe. I know I put trust in people that others would not. I do know that we view history through dark glasses and what one person says a long time ago may not have anything to do with my salvation. I know we do not know the back ground for the BY quote and not everything he says is instruction or doctrine.
I am 40 days behind schedule. I should have been reading Acts by now.
Steve Hassan, an ex-Moonie, did a presentation (its like 12-parts) on You Tube. You can go to Ex-Mormon Conference, (last year would be too soon, maybe the year before) too. He said if someone would even ask him questions about his own faith, not even arguing, he was taught to say these repetitive phrases to himself, like 'True Parents. True Parents'. He calls it thought-stopping.
My friend went through deep depression and whenever she saw me, would cheerfully talk only about the church. It was like she was protecting herself from the outside world. Brought her comfort drawing the line, I guess.
Clyde said
Sounds like a LDS testimony.
Clyde give me a break. BY Taught Adam God and clearly said Our salvation hangs upon what he taught. Also JS did not say thus saith the Lord when it comes to the King Follet Discourse, but Mormons believe it to be doctrine and teach it as such. So you and LDS can say what they want, but many things BY and JS said that they claimed was FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD, lds deny, yet things that JS and BY never stated were from God, LDS love and drool over, so give me a break.
I don´t think you´re getting Sara´s point though…
They should be responsible about what they say, because people write that down and the Church publishes it.
Also it´s not a matter of it being a revelation/instruction/doctrine or not, it´s a matter of how a president, of what is now a worldwide church, is capable of influencing millions of people on how to think about jews and other matters. The mormon people take to heart what their prophets and apostles say – and most mormons will support whatever they say, that´s why they have to be extremely responsible.
Sorry for repeating Sara´s point…
" what one person says a long time ago may not have anything to do with my salvation"
I know the words that people spoke a looooooooooooong time ago that have everything to do with my Salvation – the words contained in the Bible.
I also know of words spoken a loooooong time ago that have everything to do with spiritual destruction, and those are the words of Joseph Smith.
Have you tried reading it without all the church manuals and commentaries?
LOL!
That´s a bit of Christians´ fault though, for constantly calling the BoM an addition to the Bible when it is not(in the context of that scripture in Revelation). If they wanted to go with that, they should point out JS´ "inspired" version of the Bible, because in that case Joseph could honestly be accused of adding words to it, and he would be found under serious condemnation!
Joseph was acquainted with jails… any jack mormon today is more "worthy" than Joseph ever was…
I remember that passage – what a poet was Joseph… today if a mormon missionary were to say something like that others would accuse him of desiring the glory of the world. That´s a big problem among missionaries, to do things to be praised, and to receive glory from others – now we know where that comes from.
yes I have.
The way I see it is that Mr. Paredes is over reacting. I would throw the dvd out myself. If someone came into my house and talked to me about it I might be more willing to watch it.
Unfortunately, that doesn't even matter. The interpretations ("translation", they will say) has been so engrained in them and taught so often, that it doesn't matter if they use a church-approved or not. As I've mentioned my friend before, I'll mention again — she likes to make a big deal out of the fact that she doesn't just read the KJV, but has other "translations" AND was taught Biblical Hebrew at BYU, so she can read it without commentary. She says she understands it, as Mormons teach it. So really, it doesn't matter what version of the Bible a well-read Mormon uses, because the rose-colored glasses are still there. She will always see what she wants to see in her reading, because that's what she's been taught, with or without the LDS-approved commentary.
Hmm. I think I'll make a small note for those that seem to have misread the OP. The person that compared the anti-LDS to the anti-semites was one of the leaders of the ADL, not Mark Paredes. So if I read that correctly, it was a Jew that made that comment, not a member of the LDS church. But I know nothing of the ADL so I could be wrong.
If my above observation is correct, then if any of you have problems with that comparison, just remember, it was someone from the Semite group that made the comparison, so why are you complaining about it if that is what they decide to see it as being. That is their prerogative to make that call, not yours or mine or anyone else's outside of that group. And if that person is wrong, then it is up to others of that group, not you or me or anyone else, to call them on it.
Personally I don't agree with the comment.
You´re absolutely right… their eyes are trained to spot Mormon doctrine and interpretations, especially because of the whole "apply scriptures to ourselves", Nephi´s method of exegesis…
Something that i´m going to ask as soon as i get a chance is what they think the people of Israel did to deserve being delivered from Egypt and chosen by God to be His covenant people through which Jesus would come.
Because everything has to do with their own merits/righteousness that earns God´s favor. Yet in that case(as with many others throughout the OT) the people of Israel did nothing to deserve those blessings – God did that because of His promise to Abraham. It will be interesting.
"Hmm. I think I'll make a small note for those that seem to have misread the OP. The person that compared the anti-LDS to the anti-semites was one of the leaders of the ADL, not Mark Paredes. So if I read that correctly, it was a Jew that made that comment, not a member of the LDS church. But I know nothing of the ADL so I could be wrong"
You are right! My mistake there. Thank you for pointing that out.
"why are you complaining about it if that is what they decide to see it as being"
Nobody else besides me complained about it. I have a bad habit of reading the articles real fast and a lot of times i make dumb comments because of that… I´m sorry about it.
" it was someone from the Semite group that made the comparison, so why are you complaining about it if that is what they decide to see it as being. That is their prerogative to make that call, not yours or mine or anyone else's outside of that group."
I´m sorry but i have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. The ADL is known for maligning people that go against their agenda. They are a organization that claims to defend Jews and speak publicly about it but the Jews never appointed them as their official "defense" organization. There are even Jews who strongly oppose them – and if they lie to the public people should point that out, it doesn´t matter if they are Jews or not. That´s true of any organization, including the Mormon Church. Sending DVDs is hardly an honest reason for calling people anti-semites.
In the Article we read: "Mormons were among the earliest and most dedicated supporters of the Jewish state, he said."
The only reason Mormons support Israel is because they support Zionism. Like Mantis Mutu showed us last post, Mormons rarely do things out of love, so i doubt very much that the Church really cares about Israel at all since they´ve replaced them; The Mormons also have been adopted into different tribes at the time of their baptism, which means they are just as much Israel as the Jews. I have a few things to substantiate that claim, that i´m putting together, but one of the things that brought that to my attention was a talk given by Cleon Skousen when he teaches that the British are descendants of the ten tribes of Israel that migrated to Europe, talking about pottery and other finds that "prove" that hebrews had lived there, etc. Obviously that will lead to the ruling of the world by the "rightful" king/queen of the house of David, which is not Jesus, btw.
Another teaching that supports that view is the Idea that Jesus was married and possibly had offspring that continued His lineage, and, of course, kept the right to the throne. Yes, the Da Vinci Code came from Zionism.
(part 1)
Let’s look at some of Sharon’s nifty little hooks in this piece.
First she reports the Mormon Mark Paredes’ experience with the leader in the Jewish Anti-defamation League who had publicly denounced the mass distribution of counter-Mormon religious DVDs by a conservative Protestant ministry. As Paredes relates, this Jewish leader justified the actions of his Jewish League in these very generic terms: “‘They can’t fool me, Mark. I know that the @nti-Mormons of today were in many cases the anti-Semites of yesterday.’”
The generic nature of this comparison provides Sharon with the perfect line for her trademark sensationalism. Note how in her subsequent hook she matches a generic comparison with an utterly specific one:
"Does he have a modern Christian version of Kristallnacht in mind here? Is there really a parallel between the persecutions of the Jews and the Mormons? Think of the WWII concentration camps, the German gas chambers, the pogroms of Russia and Eastern Europe that resulted in the deaths of six million Jews within a span of ten years; now consider the distribution of 18 thousand DVDs in Arizona."
All this Jewish man did was draw a general comparison between anti-Semites of yesteryear & @nti-Mormons today, yet Sharon thinks she can entirely undermine that claim by drawing attention to the fact that the darkest moments in anti-Semitic history are incomparable with the mere distribution of counter-Mormon religious media.
But anyone up on the history would point out to Mrs. Lindbloom that decades before the Nazi firing squads, death camps, & nerve gas showers, a certain young man by the name of Adolf became immensely popular by distributing a piece of literature, Mein Kampf. A piece of literature that spent lengthy time identifying the Jews as a people who had a negative influence on Germany & therefore needed to be feared & repressed.
Regardless, Sharon next sinks her hook in deeper on the strength of her fabricated comparison:
"Mormon historians have suggested that the number of LDS deaths due to persecution amount to “dozens” or “more than 50.” While there is no justification for religious persecution, and any loss of life is reprehensible, how can one compare fifty+ with millions?"
Um…Sharon, this is a comparison entirely of your own make. It was a crafty invention that lives alone in your nifty piece of polemical literature here. Paredes never hinted to Mormon persecution paralleling Nazi Germany Jewish persecution. Nor did the leader he quotes from the Jewish Anti-defamation League.
(continued — part 3)
In closing, Sharon, I’d like to return to your reference of the initial Nazi crackdown on the Jews, the Kristallnacht. While the Nazi death camps were a new kind of ethnic persecution in Germany’s long history, the Kristallnacht represented nothing new for the Jewish people. Throughout the middle ages violent, destructive uprisings were periodically stirred up against Germany’s Jews. About the only thing unique to the Kristallnacht is that the uprising rhetoric wasn’t religious in nature. To illustrate, I point to a 16th century call for a similar destructive uprising against the Jews. A call that was issued in the form of an official pamphlet, not by a government official, but by a very popular clergyman:
"1st, . . . set fire to their synagogues or schools & . . . bury & cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord & of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians.
2nd, I advise that their houses also be razed & destroyed.
(continued — part 4)
3rd, I advise that all their prayer books & Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, & blasphemy are to be taught, be taken from them. . . . also the entire Bible. . . . [The Jews] be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, & to teach publicly among us & in our country. . . . [T]hey be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. . . . We must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing. He who hears this name from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him & chase him away. & may no one be merciful & kind in this regard.
4th, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life & limb. . . .
5th, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. . . .
6th, I advise that usury be prohibited to them & that all case & treasure . . . be taken from them & put aside for safekeeping. . . .Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should [receive a cash bonus].
(continued — part 5)
7th, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews & Jewesses & letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow . . . . For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim (Gentiles) toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting & farting . . . ."
(Michael; Holy Hatred: Christianity, Antisemitism, & the Holocaust; Palgrave: 2006; p. 114)
Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter & feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified by them, & to suffer every evil at their hands—these venomous serpents & the devil’s children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord & of us all. & if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind & worship this holy object. . . . Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy—for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews—in the eternal fire of hell.
(Ibid; p. 113)
(continued — part 6)
Note the blatantly religious rationale for this pure hatred — a hatred that relishes in an all-out persecution of the Jews not at all dissimilar to what we find three centuries later by the Nazis. Sharon, just as you find it reprehensible that Mormon persecution be mentioned in the same breath with Jewish persecution, I want you to try this on for size: your claimed “Antisemitic” rhetoric by Brigham Young shouldn’t rightly carry that designation when compared with these above statements; I certainly hope you can agree. Brigham didn’t seek to injure any Jews, & his language never called for his Mormon people to so much as verbally accost Jews. His call was simply for Mormon missionaries to leave them alone as they were entirely hardened against Christianity (& in fairness, Brigham was likely entirely ignorant of why the European Jews had good historic reason to be so abrasive towards Christian proselytizers like the Mormon missionaries).
(continued — part 7)
But the real kicker is that the two utterly terrible passages that I have just quoted come from an infamous letter, “On the Jews and their Lies,” written by none other than our beloved father of Protestantism, Martin Luther. And if you think such merciless rhetoric played no part in Germany’s 20th century anti-Semitic atrocities, then I think you need to ask yourself why the Jews of today are so gracious in honoring those brave souls specifically within Germany’s Catholic community who put their lives on the line to shelter & hide their people through those dark years of WWII. While the Nazis certainly weren’t Protestant, they followed in an Anti-Semitic tradition that was strongly centered in Germany’s Protestant community. Martin Luther himself being the chief cornerstone of that tradition.
And with that sober truth, I make my end. If you're in the business of pointing out religious skeletons in someone elses's closet, I think you'd better 1st check your own closet. Truth is, the Mormon community has not shared in the Antisemitism that's been typical & pervasive in Protestant America's long history. Most notably among America's conservative Protestants. However much you wish to stretch & make it seem otherwise, Sharon, it just is not the case. It's just another in a long line of literary concoctions from your own mind & hand. You may not like that acusation, but this deceptive literary commitment of yours has at its heart an ethnic polemic that belongs to the same spirit of persecution that has haunted ethnic minorities for ages, most noticeably the Jews. And in that vein I agree totally with the statement from Mr. Paredes's Jewish associate. If the shoe fits…
mutu.
It seems to me that Mormonism has a real identity crisis so it attempts to piggyback onto any religious group it can in an effort to find some sort of legitimacy. As I often say, at the end of the day, what we have in Mormonism is a man with a magic rock that claimed by putting it in his hat and shoving his face in the hat, he received messages from God. Now this is pretty odd and not something a Mormon would want to promote as a wonderful feature of this very odd religion. Mormonism, with its magic underwear and costumes and rituals borrowed from Free Masonry, comes across as a fraternal lodge on steroids.
No matter how hard it tries, Mormonism just can't get over the hump and leave its dubious past behind. Typing in a few words in a search box and the curious is a mouse click away from learning all they need to know about Mormonism. All the attempts to find some sort of sympathy by trying to make a connection between Mormonism and a religious group that has been persecuted relentlessly is just not going to make people ignore the oddity that is Mormonism.
I can sympathize with Mormons who want also to appear as evangelical Christians in order to gain community acceptance. But when the average citizen finds out that his Mormon neighbor plans on becoming a god, well it's kind of hard to place them into the mainstream of religious experience. So then we get a "WHAT?" reaction and Mormons claim they are being persecuted when in reality it's basically shock and dismay.
I remember one of our exMormon posters talking about how he just got tired of defending the indefensible in the religion. It's interesting that Mormons don't talk much about how they "persecute" exMormons!
mutu, you said of Sharon, " her trademark sensationalism " . Really ? That was uncalled for.
She clearly stated that anti-semitic remarks for anyone was wrong. You seem to think that because
Brigham Young 's statements were'nt as severe as Luther's , that let's B.Y. get a free pass here.
As for " American Protestantism", it certainly at times failed to follow the correct counsel, that of how
the N.T. Church was instructed to treat others. B.Y, seems to have borrowed some aberrant thinking ,
all be it a less severe level, than those of some " Protestants" , concerning the Jews. It seems he
succumbed to other beliefs as well, notably that of how Blacks were supposed to be less favored by
God. I think we can learn something here. Those in the Church that Jesus started should take their
counsel from what the New Testament states on how we are to treat our fellow man. ww
In this blog Sharon was guilty (as she very typically is) of drawing sensational correspondence between things — as I pointed out in my response.
To reiterate, Sharon is guilty of deceptive sensationalism in her treatment of a (Jewish) man's generic observation that today's @nti-Mormons are yesteryear's anti-Semites. That man (quoted by the Mormon Paredes) in no way draws a specific connection between the Nazi atrocities against the Jews & the persecutions levied against Mormons in American history. He was simply drawing a general correspondence between tendencies of religious persecutors & polemicists. But as I said, Sharon sought to entirely undermine his generic comparison by pointing to a specific comparison — that Mormon persecution was in no way as severe as Jewish persecution in WWII — & then slyly trying to pin that claim not only on the Jewish man, but on the Mormon, Paredes, as well. As this correspondence involving Jews of WWII is entirely of Sharon's own tacit fabrication, then yes, she deserves to be called out as a sensationalist & a deceiver. Ultimately, her intent, as ever, is to categorically put Mormons in a bad light, & if she fails to do so fairly or objectively, as a Mormon I'm certainly not going to be kind in my counter-criticism. After all, she is helping to fuel flames of resentment, misunderstanding & prejudice against me & my fellow Mormons, yet in her own mind thinks she is utterly innocent of any wrong-doing. And again, I'm here to point out her utter lack of reason or fairness. And point it out to you also, wyomingwilly, & anyone else following.
Deceptive & sensational polemicists are not to be dealt softly with, in my estimation. If they are audacious enough to set up an open forum, then I plan on making myself a pesky guest if their rhetoric calls for it. Generally I come on this forum to set my Protestant neighbors straight on Mormon belief, & to witness to them of the Christian Gospel as I understand it. Usually I don't even respond to blogs with themes such as this, but Sharon's facts were so utterly skewed on this one, I couldn't resist to call her on it.
Brigham Young was guilty of his share of social vices, but Antisemitism was not one of them. Though he obviously had some strong feelings against Jews for their hardness against the Christian message, to be worthy of the designation "Anti-Semite" would call for Brigham to have promoted Jewish persecution (verbal, physical, etc), & to have promoted polemical ideology against Jews. Unlike Hitler, Luther, & a good many American Protestants of his day, Brigham was guilty of neither. While the Young quote provided by Sharon does decry Jews in a categorically polemical way, it does so specifically in their resistance of the Christian/Mormon message, & is intended only as council against those Mormons who had romantic notions of converting Jews. And it is hardly drawn out. In Young's view, proselyting European Jews was a waste of time, & his use of strong language left no question that he didn't want Mormon missionaries trying to teach them. While Brigham's language certainly wouldn't be welcome in our present society, & I'm quite comfortable with that, he never in his life tried to promote some kind of polemical agenda against the Jews, at the ideological level, or otherwise. So to dig up some obscure, mildly prejudiced quote like this & use it as evidence of Mormon "Antisemiticism" is remarkably deplorable. And given the real Antisemitism that's existed among conservative Protestants in America's history, Sharon & her fellows here at Mormon Coffee shouldn't even have thought of going there. This is a blog after all, built squarely on the platform & religion of conservative Protestantism.
If Sharon is so sensitive in distinguishing between "persecution" and "criticism" against Mormonism, & underscoring how the Mormons wrongly label her & her fellows, she should be a little more sensitive (& a lot less hypocritical) in her labeling of Brigham Young & in her treatment of Mormon history.
Again, I don't apologize for my strong accusations. I was spot on in my own criticism, like it or not. It is a language which demands repentance from the offenders — for their own good, not to mention those whom they degrade.
Sincerely, mutu.
(continued — part 2)
Having made her senseless claim that Mormons are trying to piggyback Jewish victims of Nazi persecution, Sharon then tries to claim that Mormonism has a history of “anti-Semiticsm” by providing just two 19th century quotes. The 1st, & stronger, by Brigham Young:
“I would rather undertake to convert five thousand Lamanites (Amerindians), than to convert one of those poor miserable creatures whose fathers killed the Savior, and who say, ‘Amen to the deed,’ to this day. Yea, I would rather undertake to convert the devil himself, if it were possible.”
Who was Brigham Young referring to? European Jews, specifically (the majority of which were Orthodox Jews, at the time). While Brigham’s language would be considered politically incorrect in our current age because it decries an entire ethnic community (even if in just one facet of their religious interests), we should at least acknowledge that in its 19th century context, this quote is rather tame compared to the true antisemitism that was rampant in America, most particularly among conservative Protestants. Rather than classify the Jews as “Christ-killers” – as so many of his Protestant contemporaries were doing – Brigham at least put that blame upon their “fathers.” And unlike many Protestants of the time, Brigham’s comments were not aimed at stirring persecution against Jewish people, but rather in persuading Mormons to not waste time trying to convert those people whose hearts were fully closed against receiving their message. To be fair, while Orthodox Jews of today are often quite abrasive towards those who try to proselyte Christianity to them, their 19th century counterparts were even worse, from what I understand. Having faced Christian persecutions & forced-conversions throughout their history, these people were often understandably short with Christian missionaries like the Mormons. And having served a mission for a number of years in London, Brigham was likely speaking from first-hand experience. You can call such language “anti-Semitic” if you’d like, but as this language was not aimed at stirring persecution, nor in trying to establish a complex polemic against a certain ethnic group (as does Mein Kampf & most counter-Mormon religious media & literature), I think calling it “anti-Semitic” is a bit of a stretch. Truth is, Utah’s first federally appointed Governor, Alfred Cumming, was a Jewish man from Georgia who Brigham established a friendship with. While the Feds of the time expected Brigham to resist Cumming & set his people up for a full martial occupation, their plan was frustrated in part because the Mormons felt safe that their Governor, as a Jew, was more or less neutral concerning their religious interests. The Protestant-loaded Congress didn’t make the same mistake after Cumming’s term was up. Their next couple of governor appointments worked to establish a strong Protestant voice in Salt Lake City, & to entirely subvert the Mormon faith (with the backing of a Presbyterian college & mission) . Though they were eventually successful in imprisoning nearly all the upper leadership of the LDS church, & in confiscating all LDS Church property, they obviously failed in their goal of destroying the faith. About all they succeeded in doing was to fester the resentment & hatred between the Mormon & Protestant communities in America. And, yes, deaths or no deaths, the US persecution against the Mormons in the late 19th century—while typically classified as political in nature, was largely inspired by conservative Protestants with strong religious agendas.
If a person or group can scream "PERSECUTION" loud enough, the desired result is to obtain sympathy and to get critics to back off. In the case of Mormonism, they can also get folks to not look into and report on the unattractive features of the religion, its history and its founder and prophets. Playing the persecution card allows Mormons to deflect criticism. It gets the attention off of themselves and their group and on to the nasty people who insist on telling the Mormon narrative without the sunshine, lolly pops, and rainbows that the Mormon church and its members prefer.
In its history, especially around 1890, the Mormon church had to make a decision. They were either going to change or the "persecution" from the government regarding their most precious and pathway to the gods, polygamy, was going to cost the sect big time. So under the cloak of the ever ready and convenient practice of "progressive revelation", the Mormon church dumped polygamy and with that were allowed to participate in "normal" society and with polite company. The government "persecution" and that from other religions basically went away.
Some how, however, Mormons never really got over their inferiority complex and their need to justify their religious beliefs. Whitewashing went just so far. There was no blanket large enough or thick enough to cover-up the past. There was/is no explanation available to allow Mormons to enter the mainstream of Christian religious thought and practice. So we get the persecution charge and the attempts to identify with legitimately persecuted groups.