(From an e-mail I sent in December)
K.,
An honest question for you: Are you of the mindset that even if the LDS Church isn’t true, it still might be worth believing in?
Have you ever seen the Southpark Episode on Mormonism? I don’t watch Southpark (it’s a crass, raunchy show), but I have seen that episode (it’s popular with the Mormons and non-Mormons I hang out with). At the end of the episode the Mormon boy says (at 20m44s),
“Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice, and helping people. And even though people in this town think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it.”
I bring the quote up because I think it really well encapsulates a common attitude, that a religion’s ultimate truth doesn’t matter so much as its usefulness in making us better people. Two questions my friends and I like to ask are:
1. If the Church wasn’t true, would you want to know? Another way of asking this is, “Do you want to know the truth more than you want Mormonism to be true?”
2. If the Church wasn’t true, how would you know?
To be honest, some people don’t want to know. They’re happy where they are at.
Jesus said to Pilate, “For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:37) He also said, “and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
C.S. Lewis once famously wrote,
“Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.”
The same kind of high-stakes attitude can be had about Mormonism too, and has been expressed by Mormon leaders. Mormon apostle Orson Pratt wrote,
“If, after a rigid examination, it be found an imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of the deception, and be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion, may be exposed and silenced, not by physical force, neither by persecutions, bare assertions, nor ridicule, but by strong and powerful arguments—by evidences adduced from scripture and reason.” (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 1)
Or as Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,
“Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pp 188-189)
Jesus calls us to be radical disciples of the truth, to follow him at any cost, and he encourages us that it is worth it! He warns and promises:
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. d a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:24-29)
I agree that Mormonism has a lot of truth in it, and it has some beautiful and moral things about it that reflect many attributes of Jesus. It provides a lot of meaning and structure, hope and direction. But couldn’t the same be said about other groups too, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Fundamentalist Mormons? The big question — which I know has a lot of painful implications — is whether any given religion’s fundamental claims are true or false.
Grace and peace in Jesus,
Aaron
Well funny you should post this Aaron because I woke-up thinking about a variation on this theme. That is Mormons can be very devout, pious people who abide by a strict moral code. They may also claim to be having "spiritual experiences" that lead them to believe that what they believe is true. These spiritual experiences might include the often referenced "burning in the bosom" but it may also include a type of "inner witness" or an "inner peace". Mormons might often point to answers to prayer or perhaps some sort of miraculous experience. Some Mormons even claim to have seen the spirits of dead people as they were performing baptism for the dead and other such ordinances.
So these things are very reinforcing to them in terms of believing the five points of the Mormon testimony. Having had these reinforcing spiritual experiences is what makes it very difficult for the questioning Mormon when he/she begins to discover that things within Mormonism, especially as it relates to their founding prophet and the BoM aren't as advertised. "What about my spiritual feelings and experiences?", a questioning Mormon might ask. It's difficult to sort it all out especially when it's discovered that religions of every stripe claim the same devotion, piety, moral fiber and spiritual experiences. In fact, watching the news this past week, a Mormon would have learned that Pope John Paul the second, on his way to being declared a Catholic saint, is credited with a miracle healing of a nun who had Parkinson's disease. How can that be? Well in the mind of the dedicated Mormon, that certainly wouldn't disprove their own spiritual experiences or cause them to question the veracity of these experiences.
So what does it matter then, as long as people are devout, pious, moral and have spiritual feelings and experiences? I guess it doesn't matter one bit unless personal integrity and the destiny of one's immortal soul don't mean much to a person. There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. Not any Father or Jesus Christ will do. This is the bottom-line challenge for Mormons or anyone for that matter. Who is your God? Just any God will not do. The object of our love, devotion, piety and moral lives must be directed at the God who is eternal, unchanging and the One and only deity present in the universe. It's His program. It is He who is sovereign.
I think that there are a fair amount of LDS who subscribe to this mind-set, ( the South Park episode )
especially if their family, friends, and employment are all centered around their Church.
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There's something about being comfortable. Drug addicts, alcoholics, those addicted to pornography or those who smoke cigarettes can be extremely comfortable. If they weren't, they'd quit doing these things. Some people are even "comfortable" married to someone who abuses them physically and verbally. There's a term "comfort zone" and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how addictive, destructive or negative something is that someone is comfortable with.
When a Mormon begins to think that their religion is phony; that is going to cause a great deal of discomfort. Who needs that tension. In fact Mormons are taught if they feel this way there's something wrong with them personally, that Satan is attacking or leading them astray or that the "spirit" has left them (causing this discomfort).
So why rock the boat? My understanding is that the Mormon culture promotes and cultivates an attitude to project that, "everything is OK". There's no problems, no challenges, just a big fat and happy life. It's the brave Mormon, who can no longer live in the religious and socially dysfunctional atmosphere of Mormonism and who wants to know the truth, who will seek a way out.
I do agree that there are LDS members out there that have this attitude of comfort and say that ‘it’s good enough for me regardless of whether it’s true or not’. I have met a few of these people. They also generally go on to say that there is nothing else out there that has anything better than what they have now – that’s not to say that there is nothing out there that is not as good, just not better. These people you will usually find are fence sitters, not people trying to be faithful, but those who have little faith and are just pleasing their parents or looking at the social setting or wanting their children to have better moral manners than the general populace of the world. These people come under the condemnation of Jesus when He said that it’s better off if we are either hot or cold, not luke warm. But that is their problem, not mine. I can strive to teach and warn them, which Jesus says is my duty, but ultimately it comes down to their decision.
In having said this, I also know many people in the Traditional Christian denominations that say exactly the same thing. They are happy with what they have and are not interested in whether it’s true or not, just that it has a better moral teaching than the rest of the world and that’s good enough for them. One question I have asked a number of these is – If Jesus, Himself, came down and told them that the LDS church was true and they needed to be members of it would they then change? Their answer was usually “No. I am happy with where I am.” Now for someone who professes to believe in Jesus but would then turn their back on Him like that if it happened is really showing they have no faith in Him whatsoever.
NOTE – before you all get on my case about using the LDS church as true – I know you don’t believe in it so let that example sit.
Falcon,
You said –
I am glad you made it a blanket statement rather than just leaving it at the LDS, as I agree with it totally. We all must go through what we have learned, experienced, etc and decide for ourselves what we want to believe in and then hold to that, while continually testing and checking it for truth/veracity. You keep saying that the Trinity is the God of the Bible, I keep pointing out that it is just an interpretation of the Bible that has history on its side and nothing else, which is true. You wish to believe in it, that is your decision and you can defend that position – that does not make it any more correct or true. I believe that I am also following the true God of the Bible, even though much of the description about Him is clarified through modern revelation, it is an interpretation of the Bible anyway (because the Bible also allows for modern revelation). I believe that I have my evidences for my belief and I will hold fast to them – although I continually question them and really got into the nitty gritty twice in my life.
But it’s the questioning that needs to be done so people are not sitting on the fence and saying that it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, it’s still good anyway.
Here's the problem with your point-of-view Ralph, you are following what Joseph Smith said about God. His position isn't even good heresy. It's the ramblings of an occultist with a magic rock. At the end of the day that's what you've got. He's your main man and the guy you look to for revelation regarding the nature of God. Now if you'd really take the time to study the history of the Christian faith, you would find that Joseph Smith's fanciful creation has no place in the early Church.
It's right in front of your nose Ralph and you don't see it. You said that the doctrine of the Trinity "has history on it's side". Well goodness gracious man, isn't that enough for you? There are writings of the Church Fathers that go back to the second century.
None-the-less you are willing to believe that there are millions if not billions of gods that all progressed from being men (sinful or otherwise), that this god of yours has a harem of women that he procreates spirit children with, that this god is limited…….Ralph this is not the God of the Bible and you gave the reason for it when you said "…much of the description about Him is clarified through modern revelation". Ralph your prophets who revealed this were clueless. That's what you're willing to risk your soul and that of your family over is a bunch of guys who expounded on anything floating through their minds and called it revelation.
Given your approach anyone can come up with any "revelation" they want and call it good, just because they want to. Your methods and that of Mormons when it comes to biblical interpretation, is just very amateurish. That's just a fact. I can make a case for UFOs in the Bible. Every heretical/aberrant sect claims Biblical interpretation and revelation of a special kind.
You don't know God Ralph. I'll continue to pray for you and your family.
Ralph you said, " I believe that i am following the true God of the Bible, EVEN THOUGH MUCH OF
THE DESCRIPTION ABOUT HIM IS CLARIFIED THRU MODERN REVELATION…'
I had to emphasize that second part, I'm sure glad you added it because it is where the dividing line
rests : either accept the simple clear statements in the Bible concerning who our Creator is ,OR accept
what Mormon prophets/apostles have " clarified " what the Bible says about Him. Ralph, you don't make
a very strong case for trusting in the spiritual food prepared by your leaders on this subject because of
your admitting on this blog in times past of your desire to be worshiped one day as a Almighty God, as in
Rev. 4:8-11 . Now considering that this hope of yours was spawned in your mind by Mormon prophets,
I think you would be better off by returning to where truth about God is more reliable. Isa 42:8; 44:7
The problem with what our friend Ralph is saying is basically along the lines of, "everyone has a Biblical interpretation, they're all valid even though they may be different". Then he makes the major error of depending on some guys that say they are prophets who have received direct revelation that explains who this Mormon god is. And Ralph believes them because he believes he has received a personal revelation. In my world, that's just not going to make it.
We have some Christian sects that believe they are receiving a "Rema" a direct revelation from God. Now how does one go about testing whether or not these rema words they say they are receiving is true. Do I pray about it and wait for a confirming feeling? I don't think so!
There has been one revelation from God. It is contained in the Bible. Anyone who goes outside of God's revealed Word and claims extra-Biblical revelation is a false prophet.
In Ralph's world anyone can claim to be a prophet and have their own Biblical interpretation and (Ralph) will tell us it's valid because they are sincere.
We know who God is. We know who the Church Fathers said God is. We know that the Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles who walked with Jesus.
I never said they were all valid Falcon. I just said that we need to choose which one we want to believe in. Only one will get us into Heavenly Father's presence for eternity, not all.
I have more than just a 'personal revelation' for my proof to believe in the LDS church, and I have stated that many times in the past, although I have not divulged any of them.
"There has been one revelation from God. It is contained in the Bible" Oh really Falcon!? I know of many from the Traditional Christian denominations that would disagree with you there. They will agree that there is only one scripture – the Bible, but they would not go so far as to say the Bible is the only revelation from God that we have.
Falcon,
There are many things that have ‘history on its side’ but have been proven to be wrong after many decades and centuries. So even though the Trinity has only been formalized for the past 1600 years as the God for Traditional Christianity, that does not mean that it is correct. There have been other teachings/doctrines concerning who and what God is and what are his characteristics since the second century AD, so the Trinity is not the one and only from back at that time.
But some examples of things ingrained in history that have been proven wrong are –
Rocks cannot burn. Marco Polo proved that wrong to the Europeans when he came back from Asia.
The Greeks knew from the BC era that the world was round – Christopher Columbus proved it again to the Europeans when the dogma came in (from the Christian church) that the world was flat.
The majority of the world thought that the earth was the centre of the universe and everything revolved around it. That was proven wrong.
For decades it was thought that Dirk Hartog was the first recorder European to find Australia in 1616. It is now known that the first was 10 years earlier.
If you want to believe science, it was thought that the earliest human in Australia was from around 40,000 years ago and was related to the Aboriginals. Now a new finding shows that the earliest was 70,000 years ago and it is unknown if it is an ancestor of the Aboriginals – although they want to claim it to keep the idea that they were the original inhabitants.
Need I go on? So just because the idea of the Trinity has been around for almost 2000 years and been the main doctrine for less than that, does not make it true.
Your examples relate to the topic …….how? Ralph what you give is a strange string of things that have been proven wrong soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo…………that must mean that the Trinity is not true. That's so Mormon thinking Ralph. Why don't you add "Therefore the Mormon church is true."?
Ralph, walk it back in time. Jesus taught the Apostles. The Apostles taught the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers battled the heretics. Do you get the picture?
Your reasoning is a flimsy attempt to justify a religion that is not only heretical, but blasphemous.
Ralph, magic rock in a hat. Please……give me a break!
OK Ralph,
Do you want to play "can you top this" regarding personal experiences?
And what's this "I know many from Christian denominations who……….." Ralph, I can come up with a list of exMormons who had a personal revelation of Mormonism and came to the conclusion that there personal revelation was totally bogus. So that means what? If I can get a longer list than you then I'm right?
You're going to have to do better than this Ralph.
Joseph Smith has been exposed as a liar. He couldn't even rise to the level of false prophet. He's wasn't even that good.
Ralph, there has been one revelation from God and it's contained in the Bible. It tells us who He is. There is no need for further revelation once He revealed Himself. The canon of Scripture is closed. That's why we get all sorts of weird and strange "revelations" like Mormonism and Watch Tower.
The Mormon revelation won't lead you to the Heavenly Father.
Aaron said
"I agree that Mormonism has a lot of truth in it, and it has some beautiful and moral things about it that reflect many attributes of Jesus. It provides a lot of meaning and structure, hope and direction."
The same way i disagreed with Wyomingwilly two posts ago, i´m going to have to disagree with Aaron here. I don´t want to cause contention over this issue, i just want to express my point of view. The truth is, what i´ve expressed on this subject before is just a perspective born out of the pain that is to grow up in a faithful mormon family and then find out it was all a lie and leave it. Everybody is devastated, there´s much crying and even despair at times. It´s to literally lose your life – it breaks your family relationships that may never be the same again, you lose friends that start treating you as if you had a horrible infectious disease, you let go of old habits and beliefs that directed every step you took, you also have to change your entire outlook on life and literally start from scratch.
While it hurts at the same time i feel comforted by the Lord, for blessing me with the truth, because that´s what matters – what´s the point of living a fantasy? What´s the point of investing your efforts in things that will eventually fall like a house of cards, and expose you for the fraud you´re? People can make up excuses, but the truth will eventually be exposed whether we want it or not, and nobody will be able to hide from it any longer.
So, in my learning so far Jesus has said in the Bible that Satan is the father of lies. Mormonism was founded on lies. So, as to those "truths" in mormonism, what good is it to pray to a false god? For all we know it could have been a demon that appeared to Joseph Smith… doesn´t Paul tell us that Satan can appear as an angel of light? Isn´t that the whole concept of a wolf in sheep´s clothing? In that same sense one could easily find good virtues and practices even in Satanism. What good is it to have such devotion towards your family if that devotion is based on and motivated by the lie that you´ll become a god and that you´ll live eternally with them if you learn some secret handshakes? Wouldn´t that devotion be good if it was practiced in the truth of God´s word? Didn´t Jesus say that those who worship God have to worship Him in Spirit and in truth? Besides, you don´t have to be religious or to believe in any god to raise a good family, even though all good things come from God.
The Pharisees and Saducees strived to follow the law of Moses which were given by God, and yet Christ rejected them because they were like "white sepulchers", they looked beautiful on the outside, but inside they were full of dead men´s bones. Mormonism is the same – it´s appealing to the eyes, it´s appealing to the heart, it´s appealing to all sorts of deep emotional feelings, but inside it is full of dead men´s bones so to speak, it´s based upon lies, and nothing good comes from lies, so much so that when many of them find out the truth they reject God and anything relating to Him.
I truly understand though, what Aaron and WW mean, i understand that they(the LDS) believe in pleasing God by upholding good moral values, and that´s a good thing, right? I see how people can think that, but by my own experience, i eventually was so starving spiritually that i didn´t really keep those moral values because of God, but because of the respect i had for the people around me, and because God started losing meaning in my life, since my life was so empty spiritually, i started doing things like breaking the Sabbath, not really striving to serve in my callings, not caring about home teaching, not caring about the scriptures, prayer was once a day, i just said the basic stuff, etc. (not to mention a few other things that go a bit beyond that list) and you know what would have happened to me if i kept going that way? I would have kept drifting away until i would no longer care about doing some really bad stuff and i would have ignored God from that point on – He no longer would have had a part in my life at all, and i think many of you here have heard and seen that story before – you end up more hardened than unbelievers. That´s why Church leaders are so concerned about returned missionaries and want them to get married fast – because that kind of stuff happens an awful lot.
Jesus said by their fruits you will know them – those are ultimately the fruits of mormonism in my life.
Mormons claim certain supernatural experiences that provide for them confirmation of what they believe.
My question for them is always, "Please describe the God that is providing these supernatural experiences or feelings or revelations to you?" Now once I get a description of the provider, I know the source of the experience. In Joseph Smith's case he was an occultist who was involved with divination with a magic rock. This sort of activity is clearly forbidden by God's Word. So we know who the author of Mormonism is. Joseph Smith even went so far in his BoA to point to a facsmille of an Egyptian fertility god exposing himself as being the Mormon god. Pretty hideous right but it must be remembered that when Joseph Smith got on a roll, his ignorance was in full bloom.
Then we can look at the view that Mormons have towards the Word of God, the Bible. To Mormons the Bible is a corrupted revelation that should not be trusted and yet they will trade the Biblical revelation for this man with the magic rock and his ever changing views.
There's a reason that two-thirds of those on the rolls of the Mormon church aren't active or that fifty percent of returning missionaries go inactive. They figure out that Mormonism isn't true. They don't even have to get very far into the history of the Mormon church to determine it's false; the culture alone is enough to turn them off to the whole scene.
Faithful Mormons try to comfort themselves by spinning all kinds of ideas regarding those who leave. You know; they were immoral, got offended and of course they can't be happy outside of Mormonism and they're going to be drunks, drug addicts and involved in pornography.
It's hard for Mormons to admit that those who left figured it out.
"There are many things that have ‘history on its side’ but have been proven to be wrong after many decades and centuries
Ralph, are you aware that that´s a self-defeating propostion? Mormonism claims to be the restoration of first century Christianity, so, the Church has tried to show scholarly that history is on its side… if you discount that you might as well discount many claims made by your leaders and scholars.
"So even though the Trinity has only been formalized for the past 1600 years as the God for Traditional Christianity, that does not mean that it is correct.
Yes, and that´s why you have to study the subject, check it with the Bible and see if it is correct or not – yet you seem to discard that possibility because you believe Joseph Smith.
"There have been other teachings/doctrines concerning who and what God is and what are his characteristics since the second century AD, so the Trinity is not the one and only from back at that time
Those other teachings were considered heresies and were refuted by the Church Fathers who didn´t just sit and watched as some imaginative folks tried to hijack Christianity to begin a following of their own. Extensive works have been written concerning those, and that´s what drove the putting together of the Creeds of Christianity, and in some sense, it´s kind of like when Joseph wrote the Articles of Faith, you know, to make it clear and objective the main beliefs of the Church for the outside world.
"But some examples of things ingrained in history that have been proven wrong are "
Joseph Smith had only one account of the first vision, the Book of Mormon was always the same, Joseph was just a hard working farmer that would go around visiting churches seeking for truth, etc., etc., etc. I think you got the point.
"If you want to believe science
Now here you have the reason why a lot of people think that religious people are science-hating fanatics. In archeology much of it is interpretation. They draw conclusions from what they have until new artifacts are found that may or may not paint a complete different picture. You actually rely on that since not one artifact has been found that can be traced to any BoM peoples, and many Mormons have faith that in the right time those evidences will be uncovered. Observational science, so to speak, is reliable and it has given us the technology we enjoy today, that provides us with so much comfort and tools like the internet that open up doors never before thought of.
" You keep saying that the Trinity is the God of the Bible, I keep pointing out that it is just an interpretation of the Bible that has history on its side and nothing else, which is true."
No it isn´t. All along the Old and New Testaments we read that God is one, and that there are no other gods beside Him, He is the Alpha and Omega – therefore the Trinity is the only explanation possible.
In the end, f_melo, you're right that there is no hope in Mormonism. It will only bring deathly sorrow and disappointment. But when I wrote,
… I was not spending with ultimacy. Rather, for Mormons this is still the common way they experience and know their religion. And when standing on the precipice of uncertainty, not convinced that they should be so committed to pursuing truth when it might mean having to reject Mormonism, the good they see in their religion feels real to them. I want them to consider the good they have in their religion, and yet ask themselves frankly if they think such good (as they know it) is enough to justify turning down a high-stakes search for truth. To ask themselves if they find Jesus more precious than all the preciousness they have known in Mormonism.
When a person finds Jesus, everything else becomes as rubbish. The precious half-truths, known once as full-truths, become better known as filthy lies. Or even in some cases, are rightly seen as shadowy stepping stones that God ordained for the way to help a person along. But I think it's important for us to look Mormons in the eye and acknowledge that they really have known good in their religion. I think that kind of honest admission puts us on a much better ground to more directly and starkly address the lies and evil Mormonism plagues people with. Knowing how precious a person's treasure is to them puts us on a better ground to essentially say, "Even so, there is greater treasure in Jesus."
Ultimately, for hope and direction and meaning and structure and beauty and morality and comprehensive truth and Truth himself, one must come to the real Jesus.
Where did the idea of modalism come from? Is it a faulty take on the trinity? When was the last time the secular government forced religion to clarify doctrine-trinitarianism or Arianism? Do I need to believe in your doctrine of God to be saved? I don't think so. I see flaws when someones say Jesus christ is God and created everything. The Bible says we can be Heirs of God and joint-Heirs of Christ. Jesus say ascend to my father and your Father and My God and your God. There seem to be something odd here.
The problem for Mormons is that they have to get past what they feel were spiritual experiences that confirmed for them the truthfulness of Mormonism. They haven't figured out that spiritual experiences don't prove something is true without sporting evidence. Mediums can provide spiritual experiences. That's why we as Christians stand so strongly on the Word of God for our guidance. That's why Joseph Smith and Mormonism teaches that the Bible is corrupted; because it doesn't support the so called visions of Smith and other Mormons. The Bible tells us that God is Spirit yet Joseph Smith in one of the many renditions of his "vision" says he saw God the Father. I'll believe the Bible.
Mormonism even teaches doctrines at odds with Smith's own BoM. So it's not real difficult to debunk the spiritual witness Mormons claim. One of their prophets even claimed that the signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared to him demanding temple work be done for them. Who are these spirits that appear to Mormons in pursuit of their dunking for the dead rituals? That's not real difficult to figure out.
Andy Watson has had a couple meetings recently with two young and naive Mormon missionaries who are getting a good dose of the truth (from Andy). These boys were completely in the dark regarding Mormonism. They are having to choose between wanting Mormonism to be true and wanting the truth.
There is a difference. One leads to eternal life. The other leads to eternal destruction.
The question posed by this article is really excellent. It boils down to, "Do you want the truth more than you want something to be true?" Mormons are really up against it in this regard because they have to keep so many balls in the air as they try to find some sort of rationale to support what they want to believe. I remember one of our past frequent posters here, who is an exMormon, stating that it took him five years to get all of the Mormonism out of his brain. And how there was a time when he wanted so desperately for Mormonism to be true but knowing that it wasn't.
Knowing Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection is the key to knowing the truth. The reason I say that is because "knowing" means both having the head knowledge of who Jesus really is and having the spiritual knowledge of what his resurrection means. Jesus is God. He isn't a created being. He was always God. There was never a time He wasn't (God). The first verse of the Gospel of John says it all with "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". We are also told that Jesus, the Word, became flesh and dwelt among us. We have seen His glory says John.
Heretical sects and aberrant cults want to rob Jesus of the fullness of His deity. The enemy of our Lord thrives on this because if he can convince men that Jesus is less than He is, than the meaning of the shed blood of the cross can be minimized or pronounced ineffective. That's why the person and work of Jesus Christ is attacked by these groups. That's why the Bible has to be found defective.
These new revelations of these enemies of the cross is nothing but recycled lies from the dawn of man. Satan pulled it on Adam and Eve and he continues the same line of attack today. Mormonism is a spirit, a spirit of deception. Without full knowledge of the truth, those who follow after these false prophets will perish. The stakes are too high not to seek the truth.
Ralph – you stated " I believe that I am also following the true God of the Bible, even though much of the description about Him is clarified through modern revelation, it is an interpretation of the Bible anyway (because the Bible also allows for modern revelation). " How reliable are those revelators? Smith called heavenly father "Jehovah", today mormons use that name to refer to Jesus – yet it is smith that is claimed to have 'communed with Jehovah' , was smith confused? Brigham Young (and others) taught that God was Adam, yet today it is called a 'theory'. At one moment polygamy was required as an eternal law, only to be recinded when the full weight of the law of the land was brought to bear – is that reliable 'revelation'?
Further "clarification" on God's word from Mormon leadership :
Mormon leadership clarified that the marriage mentioned in John 2 , was Jesus' wedding !
Mormon leadership clarified that Adam was actually the father of Jesus' spirit, in pre-existence.
Mormon leadership clarified that 3 Gods were involved in creation, and put this truth in the
Temple ceremony. The 3 Gods were Elohim, Jesus, the Holy Ghost ? Nope. Rather: Elohim
Jehovah, and Michael.
Mormon leadership clarified that Adam's body was created from the dust of another earth,
Mormon leadership clarified how the way into God's presence was obtained by portraying this
in the Temple ceremony as having to give a unique handshake and a password. Also clarified
was the penalty for divulging this to non-Mormons—- possibly a slit throat. [ cont ]
" clarification " cont.
All this ( and a lot more ) and then we hear the following from Mormon Pres, Ezra T. Benson :
Let me give you a crucial key to help you avoid being deceived. It is this—learn to keep your eye
on the prophet. He is the Lord's mouthpiece and the only man who can speak for the Lord today.
Let his inspired counsel take precedence. [ Teachings of Ezra T.Benson, p.134 ]
We here who love the Mormon people do not follow a man such as this. Mormon leadership have
not been reliable to interpret God's Word on many vital doctrines. May the Mormon people consider the following
paraphrase of Eph 4:14 in the Living Bible : "… . no longer be like children, forever changing our
minds about what we believe because someone has
told us something different, or has cleverly lied to us
and made the lie sound like the truth. "
Heb 7:25 God help the Mormon people to completely follow THE Prophet— JESUS
What Mormons need to do is get themselves on a quest to find the Biblical Jesus. The first thing they would find on this quest is that the Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus promoted by Mormonism. The Mormon Jesus can't be found in the pages of Scripture. The fact that someone says that they have the real Jesus because it was revealed to them; and this Jesus doesn't match the Biblical Jesus, ought to immediately raise the suspicions of people.
That Apostle Paul talks about not learning about Jesus from men but having Jesus and the gospel revealed to him. Now heretics, false prophets and religious interlopers through out the ages have tried to piggy back on Paul's claim and co-op it for their own.
These false teachers forget that eventually Paul went up to Jerusalem and submitted the gospel he was preaching to the Apostles for their examination. The revelation Paul had of Jesus was true because upon examination, the Apostles could add nothing to it. Paul always presented Jesus as the revealed Christ that was found in the Scriptures. He bolstered this with his personal testimony and accompanying signs and wonders as God performed them through him by the Holy Spirit. These three things formed the solid base upon which Paul stood.
Joseph Smith was one of many wolves in sheep's clothing that have presented themselves as prophets. Smith is easy to debunk. He's a low grade charleton with a thin veneer. The Biblical Jesus is a threat to false prophets and false religious sects. Knowing Christ in a personal way based on God's revealed Word the Bible, strips away all of the clutter and noise of false religions. Putting faith in the Biblical Jesus results in eternal life. Putting faith in false prophets and false religious systems is not a wise choice no matter how they may make a person feel.
No, it's a good example, Ralph.
The only problem I have with the example is that the Jesus of the Bible has shown that the LDS church is false. (His words are in contradiction to the words of Joseph Smith and other modern prophets. Therefore, he would never come and tell us that the LDS church is true because he has already shown that it isn't.)
So let me turn the question back on you: Jesus Christ has disproved the Mormon Church. Why don't you believe Him?
It´s not about Jesus, it´s about living together with their families for eternity, at least for many of them – that´s the foundation a lot of people´s faith. The ultimate goals of most mormons isn´t to learn about Jesus and make their lives about following Him, it is to get married in the temple and to be exalted as a family. One can argue that they have to follow a christ-like life to do accomplish that, but Jesus isn´t the focus, He´s that wise mentor that is there to give you a hand as you go through the challenges of life.
Am i right, Ralph?
I'm looking forward to being with my loved ones in eternity, but I am more excited about being with God. If God's promise is eternity in His presence, if this is what salvation is, why would someone want exalted into godhood? You know what exaltation in the LDS church means? god-status and your own planet to rule over. This is not in God's presence. This is being thrust out of God's presence. Missing the mark, again.
Or I can put it this way: If the Mormon church says that "hell" is being denied God's presence, why is their "heaven" becoming a god and getting on equal footing with god? Once you achieve exaltation and become a god, ruler of your own planet, you are no longer in God's presence, right?
Please, Ralph, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of what exaltation and godhood means.
As a former Mormon, I have to say there was a time after God led me out of Mormonism that I wanted the LDS Church to be true. My son was coming home from his mission, and my emotions began to work on me. I prayed to God to restore my testimony of JS and the Church. I remember standing in my shower and crying for this to happen. In the end, my spirit was comforted as God reminded me that He had led me from darkness to Light. He reminded me what He had already done in my life. There is a huge emotional pull to want the LDS Church to be true–especially when your entire life has been grounded in the teachings of JS et al.
Blessings…
"And when standing on the precipice of uncertainty, not convinced that they should be so committed to pursuing truth when it might mean having to reject Mormonism, the good they see in their religion feels real to them."
Please don´t think this reply is about me being right and you wrong. Not at all. I´m speaking exclusively from my own experience. When i was standing on the precipice of uncertainty, i no longer cared if my pursuit of truth would lead me out of mormonism, i just wanted to be free from the lies and manipulations that were empty and in no way brought me closer to God or made me a better person. I was thirsty for truth wherever it would have led me, even if out of a belief in God as well. The Lord blessed me in a way that i wasn´t bitter towards Him, but really found truth in the Scriptures and finally had a solid basis of why i believed in Jesus and who He was. So your affirmation doesn´t apply to my case in the sense that i wasn´t that in love with the good of Mormonism, and that could have damaged my perception of religion very badly, maybe beyond repair, as it is the case of many of those who become atheists. But i´m aware that that is the case with many people you have dealt with, i´m not questioning that at all. I asked a family member once – if the church is false, would you want to know? He answered only after i die.
Also, supporting your point of view and main theme of the Article, An apostle came to speak here last year in a combined-stake meeting, and while talking about why people should be members of the Church he said that one of the reasons is that people get more than what they bargain for. They come just looking for a place of worship, and they end up getting Temples, Eternal Families, Programs, etc. That is a mentality that has been induced and is being induced by the leadership today – so, don´t join the Church because it is true, but because of the good things it offers and how those things change your life for the better. For me it was a drastic change of strategy, and was pretty embarrassing – but you know, people were just drooling over everything he said, instead of thinking about it. Funny though that next week very few people actually remembered what he had said…
Yes, modalism is a heresy. That´s the only part i could follow…
You have to believe in the Word of God as it was recorded in the Bible to be saved, and never anyone by reading the Bible came anywhere nears Joseph Smith´s "interpretations" of it.
The only odd thing was that you just threw phrases around without making sense of them in a real argument.
jack,
This is truly marvelous. I was just thinking this morning about contacting you to have you give your testimony. I was thinking of the very things you have mentioned. I was also thinking about how you told me it took five years to get the Mormonism out of your mind.
I thought I'd just tip you off, with the rating system some Mormons will come on here and give you a thumbs down. I see one of them already zeroed out the +1 that is automatically recorded. I got you back in the plus column. It's a real blessing every time you post. I'm reminded of what Paul wrote, "For I am convinced that he who began a good work in you will complete it in the day of Christ Jesus".
jackg and f-melo, thanks for sharing your experiences . I never get tired of hearing them . God is so
awesome. May the precious Mormon people come to find their freedom in Jesus as you both have.
ww
"speaking with ultimacy", I meant
f_melo, God has been so good to you. That you wanted to be free from the lies, such a miracle of the Spirit. My post obviously has more relevance to those who don't have the kind of resolve that you had.
"I asked a family member once – if the church is false, would you want to know? He answered only after i die."
That is chilling.
Love you brother, in Jesus,
Aaron
Sarah, you have an interesting case. Mormons believe that this earth will be celestialized(become a giant crystal ball/a giant Urim and Thummin) and it will become their place of inheritance. God will still live in his own place of inheritance near the star Kolob, so they won´t be living in the presence of god. That also isn´t possible because god is a man, and as Doctrine & Covenants teach us, the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit so that he could be in all places at once, meaning that god is present at a certain location and as a physical being he can´t be in more than one place at once as the HG can. So, like all things mormon, what they say isn´t what they mean, to live in the presence of god is to be able to visit him every once in a while.
I wonder if i could visit him anytime i wanted, or if i had to wait to talk to him after he´s done with the other billions of (spiritual)siblings i have…
I guess I just don't understand the appeal of becoming a god when salvation is eternity with God.
It seems to me that this is like a classic story of an ungrateful child. When given a great gift, the child turns away, stomping his foot, and demanding that it's not good enough. The child rejects this precious gift.
God's gift to us his His grace, salvation through the death of His son Jesus Christ on the cross. We must accept that gift, even as unworthy as we are, so that we will have eternal life in God. This is god's gift to us.
Mormonism, with its doctrine of exaltation and godhood, is essentially rejecting this precious gift from God! How selfish and ungrateful, that an eternity with God isn't enough. No, the LDS church teaches that it's not enough to want eternal life with God, but that one must also want eternity with family, exaltation, and then, finally, to become a god.
It's exactly like a child who gets a puppy for Christmas and throws a fit because it wasn't a pony.
It is very chilling, it got me really upset… i honestly thought that if i presented my family with the truth that would be enough for them to see it for what it was and make the right choice. I was so disappointed that they invented all sorts of excuses to justify the unjustifiable… that was so heartbreaking. For quite a while i was quite desperate and confused because of that and because of my own "spiritual" feelings.
God has been very good to me, no question. Thank you for those words.
For those who don´t have the kind of resolve i had, just think back when you were taught in primary to do what is right. I remember being taught that if someone offered me coffee, or drugs,etc. i had to say no, even if people were pressuring me to do it, and even if i would end up being ridiculed by my choice. I was taught to stand up for the truth and do what´s right. That worked in a way they didn´t expect, because when i found out the truth, i had to do what was right. I didn´t leave the church immediately because of my family, and it is important to not make decisions in a rush. But i wasn´t willing to ignore the things i had learned – see, it was impressed upon my mind since very early that we have to be accountable before God, and that we will stand in judgment before Him one day, and i knew i had to find an answer to those problems, and it was obvious what was going on…
So, at the end of the day is all about personal integrity. Are you going to do what is right, or are you going to bow down to pressure? And why is the Church guilty of the same social pressure it warns its members to stay away from? What about standing for what is right? Those are just slogans these days.
oops, i guess i just found the good in mormonism you were talking about, and i just got a better insight of your approach…
It´s great to be able to help, and to be able to participate with great people here in this effort. I´ve learned a lot here, it´s great for me to see all the trouble that the MRM team goes through just out of love and concern for the mormon people, as well as the regular posters that take the time to add to the discussion. Mormons don´t have that attitude, i could say that 90% of them that i´ve known never bothered to learn anything from other religions to at least show that they care about the people they are trying to convert(me included, although i did eventually learn a few things about Buddhism) . They don´t go through the trouble of spending hours after hours of studying other religions to understand them as correctly as they can and then to honestly address them and show that they indeed have the truth. That´s another reason why mormonism looks more like a business, they want to sell you something but they don´t really care about you as an institution, unless, of course, you show interest in becoming part of the fold.
When i compare Christianity with Mormonism i can´t understand why anyone would choose mormonism. That´s why they have to omit much of their history, and they have to appeal to family emotions. That´s why they promptly dismiss Historic Christianity as corrupt, and even at times their appointed teachers will misrepresent the traditional Christian doctrine to try to expose it as irrational and meaningless.
Jesus said in John 10:10 "(…)I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
That´s the truth, and that comes through a spiritual rebirth, that comes through knowing the truth, repenting of our sins and believing in Jesus Christ as He revealed Himself to the world. Mormonism can´t offer that, it doesn´t matter what good it does to some familes.
"I guess I just don't understand the appeal of becoming a god when salvation is eternity with God."
They react to that in a similar way the atheists do. I´ve heard people asking if that was the case what would they do for eternity, how could they stay in the clouds playing the harp for eternity… that would be boring and meaningless… they think the only cool thing to be able to spend all that free time with would be to be busy having children and using your imagination as you create the world the way you want it – you get to be the designer. I think the mormon church should offer them a customized Sim City game, a Sim Universe to get them started with their ideas for their own solar systems. Hmmm, i wonder if mormons would buy that game…
Really, i truly heard those arguments before.
It burned me down spiritually, it came to a point that those experiences became hurtful to me.
Throughout my life i had those spiritual experiences, and as i said, they would come shortly after i asked for them in prayer, so i immediately concluded they were an answer from God. Believing that to be the Holy Spirit, i´d always be seeking for those experiences to receive guidance through them, to know what to do with my life – the church encourages you to do that before every decision you make(Nephi comes to mind), to leave a job, to choose a career, to which people to talk to about the church, etc. So, in that sense i became a spiritual junkie hooked on those experiences because the church has that as a focus for someone who wants to live a christlike life. The prophets were the ones who were closest to God and were always full of the Spirit that would guide them in everything they did, right? Before making major decisions i would think about the subject of my inquiry, i would decide, then i would pray about it to see if i felt in my heart if God approved of it. It would go something like this: "Heavenly Father, i´ve thought about this decision and this is what i´m going to do. Manifest to me through the spirit that that´s your will." I then, as i was taught in church, would wait, in silence, for God to manifest himself – because how can you expect Him to answer you if you don´t give Him time to do so(that´s the official instruction i got on how to receive personal revelation). If i felt nothing i would then ask God about plan B, and if i still felt nothing i would get really confused, and thought that maybe either way was fine(and that´s the excuse given when you don´t get an "answer" to your questions).
At times though, those experiences would come very often, mostly on my mission, but they would be very confusing… because i would follow a prompting and at times it would work out, and most times it didn´t, and that started shaking my confidence in them. They also became so common that i had a hard time telling if they came from god or from my own mind, so eventually i was having a huge hard time relying on them for guidance, because in every decision i made on my mission i would try to concentrate to allow the spirit to "talk" to me and confirm in my heart if i was doing what God wanted me to do – that´s was the only way to succeed in spiritual matters, as i was taught.
Those things also messed with me emotionally. At times i would feel that beautiful "spirit" and feel all edified and close to god and then, as soon as i got distracted with something of the "world" that feeling would leave me, and i would feel a void, an emptiness, and i got very angry at god at times for "abandoning" me without a reason… and it´s all confusing to me what actually happened, if it was a false spirit, mood swings due to lack of vitamins, or whatever else exists out there that i am not aware of. All i know it was kind of like receiving good news and then bad news a few seconds later, if you can imagine the emotions behind that, and then imagine that several times a day – it was a miserable roller-coaster, it got to a point that i was very stressed out because that whole process was confusing me to no end and i couldn´t figure out what God was "trying" to tell me, and that would also make me feel very depressed as if i wasn´t doing what God wanted me to do… really…
So, by the end of my mission i had just closed my heart to that stuff because i couldn´t handle it anymore, and i couldn´t even open the book of mormon because i didn´t want to go through those motions any longer, i wanted to feel peace, and a constant peace, not something that keeps coming and going for no apparent reason.
One interesting thing though, is that since i had many experiences like that i had plenty of opportunities of observing how they work. I would notice that the "spirit" would be the strongest, and even make people cry, when i had a special preparation – I concentrated over a few passages of scripture, meditated on them and prayed about them, and tried to keep my focus on them as much as possible. When i delivered the message, the tone of voice had to be soft, and if i kept concentrated and looked people in the eyes and focused my words according to how i was feeling in my heart, people would feel touched and everyone would feel a powerful presence in the room. I have to start doing some research on that, because i can replicate that even now, though i don´t do it anymore because i´m not sure what i´m messing with here… but it is some sort of energy that can be manipulated, that´s for sure, i just don´t know if it comes from demons or from nature.
Yeah, i was messed up big time.
Ralph,
You presuppose that Jesus works through a physical organization called a church. You see "church" as efficacious, which is the problem with your reasoning. We can rest assured that Jesus will never tell anyone that the LDS Church is true. The reason for this is that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." There is no other way to God's presence (heaven), which would include what you perceive to be "church."
Peace…
Ralph. I do believe that you do believe we are both Christians. I know your heart is in God, and your mind, body and spirit. I know that you do believe you are following the true God of the Bible. Mormonism and Christianity are oil and water. They cannot mix. It is not a combination, hybrid, or anything else. It is polar opposite. What the crew is trying to explain to you is the difference. You keep focusing on Jesus Christ of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What I am trying to write, is this. You say Jesus and I am saying Jesus, but we both have different meanings. Mormons are good people that is not the question. No one is questioning their love, faith, hopefulness, goodness. What is a fact is that a mormon Jesus Christ is not the same as a biblical Jesus Christ. We are trying to help you to explain it to you. No need for defensiveness (I know this blog can be prickly) but the bottom line is the guys are sharing the true love of the real Jesus. If you will listen, and 'tear down this wall', you can really understand. You will have freedom. Freedom in Christ doesn't mean all of a sudden there is permission to do the seven deadly sins all day, or murder. Its is the understanding of the meaning of the word. Let's even say the 'Be Attitudes'. Watch hotm.tv this week, esau and jacob. Shawn can explain it better than I can. PS Shawn is just a man. I do not worship, adore but do want to listen to him because he was lds for forty years.
Falcon,
There is much controversy concerning John 1:1 that you have referred to. This is where your interpretation comes in. If you look up Wikipedia ‘John 1:1’ it will describe the controversy for you. You can also find the debate on various other sites on the internet between proper PhD holding scholars that study the ancient Biblical texts. But since I am only a biochemist I will stick with the easier explained Wikipedia version.
Basically, the word translated out to be ‘god’ in the phrase “the word was God” could also be translated out to mean ‘divine’ instead, giving a whole new interpretation to the verse ie “the word was Divine”. There is also the fact that the phrase could be translated out to be “the word was God”, “the word was The God” or “the word was A God”. Again, each of these give a different interpretation of that verse. Imagine if it really did mean “the word was A God” not “The God”, then the Trinity would be out the window according to that verse.
Then there is this quote –
Note what I have bolded. Thus, from this verse, the doctrine of the Trinity is just an interpretation of the Bible based on only one way to interpret the ancient texts that we have at this time.
"Imagine if it really did mean “the word was A God” not “The God”, then the Trinity would be out the window according to that verse."
Sure, because you can throw out the window everything else on the subject that is found on the Bible.
I don´t know why it is so hard for you to understand this, you don´t take scripture out of context. God revealed several times He was ONE being, and there are no other gods, and then you imagine that God can possibly contradict Himself, having been lying to Israel all those years. You´re just desperately attempting to find any little thing that will give a little bit of credibility to your JS inspired religious beliefs.
Man Ralph,
I couldn't be more impressed then if you told me you had gone to Salt Lake City, got in the LDS vault, and used Joseph Smith's magic rock to divine the meaning of John 1:1.
Seriously Ralph, I could nail this for you but I've been down the LDS rabbit trail too many times with you and other Mormons to know enough not to take the bait. There's been a sufficient amount of authoritative information supplied on this blog relative to, not the "interpretation", but the Greek translation of this verse. Suffice to say, the words John chose when writing this tells us clearly and plainly that Jesus is God; not "a" god or any other rendering that aberrant religious sects or heretical cults like to imagine.
You might ask yourself, however, why you and others trapped in these false religions, work so hard to try and prove that Jesus isn't God?
I'll continue to pray for you and your family Ralph.
melo,
This is really fascinating. You've swerved into something that is practiced by folks not only in religion but also sales and marketing. As you probably know, I don't belong to any particular Christian denomination, but I am from the "camp" that believes that the Book of Acts could be manifested today. In-other-words, I'm not a secessionist when it comes to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Anyway I think what you were doing is in the category of a parlor trick, but that people more associated with the Pentecostal strain of Christianity often do this thinking they are moving in the Spirit when in reality it's a manifestation of the flesh.
I think about this a lot because for one thing, I'm really not interested in faux spiritual experiences. The other thing is that I'm curious about how it all "works".
Thanks for sharing that. It was very helpful.
Falcon,
You have your faith in the Trinity, so of course you are going to dismiss what I wrote above. You have already closed your mind to anything that contradicts or opposes your beliefs. You even said that I have been shown enough on this site to know that the way you interpret that verse is the only real way of translating it. That is forcing the translation to fit the interpretation, whereas the translation should come before the interpretation. There is a debate among the people who are experts in these matters, regardless of how you want to dismiss those who disagree with you and call them crack-pots, they are experts and know more about this than you do. But how this verse is translated affects the very way in which it can be interpreted, which was my original point.
But with your comments above, you just proved your own observations about me apply to yourself as well – you are locked into your own dogma and wont let go despite the evidences out there against it.
Fmelo,
I know we have gone over the Trinity in past posts, but no one has shown me definitive proof that the Trinity is nothing more than just an interpretation of the Bible. There are no verses that state explicitly that the Holy Ghost is God, even though there is this verse used above to show that Jesus is God (which may be faultily translated as I showed). So how does the Holy Ghost be shown to be part of the Trinity – by going through the Bible and picking different verses and applying an already formulated interpretation to them. So really, all you can get from the Bible is a binitary – ie The Father and The Son, but no Holy Ghost.
BTW did you know that it took almost 50 years from the first Nicean Council to when the Holy Ghost was decidedly acknowlegded as part of God and the Trinity was formed. The council was formed to initially identify the relationship of The Father and Jesus as there were groups saying that they were seperate beings and Jesus was subordinate to His God… oops I mean to our God.
Lets see here……………………………………….."you have your faith in the Trinity"……..no Ralph, I have my faith in God. Ah, "closed my mind to anything that contradicts or opposes your beliefs" No again Ralph. To the contrary I study diligently as the Bible says we are to do. It strengthens my faith unlike Mormons who run away when something makes them "feel" bad. "……the only real way of translating it……" Ralph forgive me, but Mormons no zilch about Biblical translation and/or interpretation. As Christians, we've got 2,000 years of folks who are experts with the ancient languages who know how to accurately render the text. This is contrary to Mormonism's founder who couldn't translate or interpret his way out of a wet paper bag. Dare we mention the BoA again or Smith's own pathetic attempts at "translating" the King James version of the Bible. The guy was a joke.
Ralph you can always seem to find a crackpot somewhere who will say what you want to hear. Most of those folks are enemies of Christ and want to portray Him as something less than the eternal God. Look at you for example. You'll hunt high and low for anything that reinforces your belief in a false prophet and a religion that thinks that men have and will become gods. Now Ralph, are you really open to the truth when the truth will cost you what you think is a shot at becoming a god yourself.
Ralph, this is embarrassing. You know better. God has been calling you and you reject Him.
I will continue to pray for you and your family.