This video is described on You Tube as a “Humorous clip showing what activities are NOT suitable for Sunday by four LDS Young Women Leaders and a husband. Made for a Youth Standards Night Program…”
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)
Wow, that was recent! I´m so glad that you´ve left, that you had your eyes opened! Could you share with us how you came to find your way out?
"Has your family accepted that you have left? ”
I am a third generation mormon here in Brazil – that´s a big deal here. One side of my family were pioneers starting a branch in a state where the church hadn´t stepped in before, the other side helped in the first temple. Most of my family are devout mormons and i have a brother serving a mission right now. You have no idea of the misery it has been here with them. I couldn´t just sit down and pretend that the lie is truth and play the part – and to come to faith in Jesus has been the best thing it has ever happened to me. It completely changed my perspective on life, and i feel really excited to actually be free to do good, without having to report numbers to an elder´s quorum president, without being assigned a family to take care of, or meaningless callings which only purpose is to keep people in church while not teaching them anything that actually heals anyone spiritually, etc.
I understand you not wanting to hurt your mother, i know how that feels – that´s why i´m not rushing to take my name off the records just yet. It´s all very complicated… i´m glad though that your family isn´t giving you much trouble about it. It´s sad to hear those stories of people who lost their marriages and children because of it – what a crime.
I´ll pray that all will work out between you and your mother, that she also may share the true faith in Jesus! God bless you and welcome!
I've tried to follow the comments here but I've not been feeling well for a few days so I have'nt added
anything to the conversation. I like what setfreeby jc said. Also it's important to remember the bottom
line here in respect to "Sabbath keeping" , which is that this belief for Christians is not a salvation issue.
I appreciate that Jeff recognizes this. I think what f-melo shared with how Mormon leaders could teach that
some Jewish leaders " made unnecessary rules about the Sabbath " . How ironic that Mormon leaders
have resorted to the same behavior with their record of adding unnecessary rules, laws, policies to the
Gospel of Jesus . They've done this as a way for LDS to attempt to gain God's favor with the chance to
return to live with Him etc. How sad ! ww
I love this Violet! What a great way to explain it.
Wow! I can understand why you haven't had your name and records removed yet. I'm just thankful that I have some family that are inactive. It does help.
Could you share with us how you came to find your way out?
Well, my family has been in mormonism a long time. Sad to say. On one side, two of my great, great, great, great, great Aunts were married to Joseph Smith as plural wives. My family has been involved since the beginning. To make a long story short, their mother left her husband whom she had 18 children with and was sealed to father Smith (Joseph's father) there was no mention of a divorce from her first husband. Not to worry though, many generations later, the family thought she should be sealed to her first (non mormon) husband so they obtained permission from a general authority and had it done. I'm not sure where that leaves father Smith! So crazy! The other side of my family were converts from Europe in the late 1800's. What lead me out was one day, I was reading through an old Ensign magazine and I found an article that "proved" the book of Abraham was true. To be honest, I hadn't really given much thought about the book of Abraham in all my years as a mormon. I just took it to be the truth. I'm a bit of a history buff and had studied ancient Egypt some, so looking at the facsimiles I knew something was not right. That started a 3 year long study into mormonism. It sort of snowballed. My poor husband and kids. I told them everything! Whether they wanted to hear it or not! LOL! I'm glad that I did, because our 2 boys are ready to have their name and records removed now. My husband really doesn't care at this point. It took me awhile to have my records removed. We live right smack in the middle of mormonville. I know people are finding out, but as I said, I'm a pretty strong personality and I don't really care what they think of me. I have found new friends in my new Christian church. I love the freedom that is in Christ. It makes you want to share it with everyone! When I first started reading, REALLY reading and studying the Bible, I couldn't put it down. It was hard at first to believe that it is all so simple and that I had been under so much control from the LDS church all of my life. I did have a hard time at first in trusting the Bible, because as you know, it's pounded into our heads that we only believe it if it's translated correctly. Who's translation??? So glad to be out!
Thanks for responding to me! I do understand what you are saying. Christ's 2 commandments cover and even enhance the 10 commandments. But we don't use the 10 commandments as LAW anymore. It's nice to be able to discuss with other Christians. I know that I have 40 years of Bible study to catch up on!
I think its just one more case of religious leaders exercising control over their members through institutionalized rules, guilt and shame.
These poor sheep follow these guys because they think the Mormon church has the keys to the kingdom, the pathway to the Celestial Kingdom, and the major prize of becoming a god.
There has to be leverage in this sort of power equation. The leverage is the eternal salvation, second level, of the Mormon member.
Now if the Mormon members didn't hand their power over to the Mormon church, they wouldn't allow themselves to be led around by their noses by people in authority who are clueless.
falcon, I think that once a person has been manipulated into thinking he or she needs a prophet
as the head of Church , the mouthpiece of God , A man who claims to reveal the mind of God to
everyone today, then in order to be obedient to God they simply " follow the prophet", in his "counsel".
If the prophet says , or has one in his inner circle say that going for a ride in your car on the sabbath
is a violation of the Sabbath, then these people, his sheep, merely obey his counsel. truely a sad
Kate, you have quite a family history! Amazing how even people so deeply rooted in the Church can leave it.
It´s great to hear that your husband and children are fine with the changes.
Even though i don´t have less active members in my family, i´m not surrounded by mormons, and that´s helpful. The church is still a non-event here, regardless of the temples being built. And after they are built the people who frequent it the most are the ones who have to travel to get there – the novelty just wears off very quickly among the local people and the stakes have to start assigning "volunteers" to work there.
The book of Abraham was one of the things that proved to me Joseph didn´t translate anything at all. But what damaged my "testimony" the most about it was one apologist saying that the BoA wasn´t all that important for the Church, trying to divert attention from it. That was a major factor in my de-conversion.
John W. Ritenbaugh, wrote this litttle commentary about this verse in Colossians 2:16. he comes to a different conclusion about its meaning. He seems to think that its good proof that early christians observed the sabbath and holy days. He makes a comment about what prompted Pauls commentary at that time. It apparently was in response to belief outside of the faith, overly soitic understandings about holy days and religious observence. http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bi…
Engkei, does that article make a distinction between Christian Jews or Gentiles? So far as i understand, much of the first converts were Jews who were spread around all over the Roman empire. So, if those were Jews i would understand why, but to say that because they kept it that is a commandment or a requirement as correct way of worshipping God for us today is a bit of a stretch.
"I'm not sure why you are so bent on knowing if my private part was cut, but since you keep asking, yes it was. Since it was done as a baby, I had no say in it."
I actually wanted to know if you performed the ordinance of circumcision, to know if you keep the Abrahamic Covenant – by your logic Christians should be circumcised because that was part of the Covenant between God and Abraham and as Paul says, we are all children of Abraham through faith in Christ.
I was trying to figure out you logic behind what commandments to keep or not, since it kind of seems arbitrary to me, and it ignores clear passages of the New Testament.
What's the penalty for violating the Sabbath? Do people get stoned? Do they have to kneel in front of their place of worship with sack cloth and ashes on? Do they get their names published in the church bulletin as Sabbath breakers? What amount of punishment is applied to various forms of Sabbath breaking? Are there community sanctions? Do they have to come before the congregation and confess their sin of Sabbath breaking?
You see there must be assignment of blame with a suitable punishment. And there needs to be a system for turning people in and some sort of ecclesiastic authority to bring the Sabbath breaker to judgment.
It is very difficult for me to understand why people who have been set free by Christ want to come under some sort of Law. Now I understand it with cults like Mormonism. It's a way of keeping the folks in line. Keep them in control and under the thumb of the authorities. I wonder when these cult members are going to understand that the cult leaders need them more than they need the leaders.
The article states that Pauls responce was based upon the understanding of Gentile converts. The addition or application of Pagan religion into christian worship. These people lead a very 'ascetic way of life'. http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bi…
Why would it not be appropriate for christians to observe holy days, new moons and sabbath? Its a very distinct practice amoung Jews and many christians. There really isn't a 'pagan sabbath day', its a remembrance of the day that 'god rested' after creation.
Its included in the ten commandments. I would admit its rather strange to include a ceremonial or cultic command with more ethical observations, like not killing, and not coveting & committing adultery. Also not worshiping any other god. If the sabbath day isn't necessary, why are these other commands observed?
"Why would it not be appropriate for christians to observe holy days"
It´s not that it is inappropriate – it´s just that it doesn´t matter what days you keep or not, you shouldn´t go around saying that people has to observe those days as you do, claiming that the Bible commands you to do so. If Christians want to "keep" the Sabbath day, that´s fine, but you can´t force that observance on other people. Also, as it has been pointed out in the past 100 comments or so, Engki, the New Testament doesn´t require from anyone to keep any holy day, as a Christians you don´t have a duty to observe even the Sabbath day if you don´t want to.
"Its included in the ten commandments. I would admit its rather strange to include a ceremonial or cultic command with more ethical observations, like not killing, and not coveting & committing adultery."
It´s not strange, it´s nice. God imposed a national holiday – a day for the entire nation to rest and recover from a week of hard work. Too bad the Jewish leaders turned a blessing into a burden, but that was the intention. I think it would be a fantastic thing today to have something like that when you have to turn all your electronic equipment off and turn off from everything that keeps you too busy all the time. And i can if i want to, i just don´t have the right to tell people that they have to do like i do.
"If the sabbath day isn't necessary, why are these other commands observed?"
The Sabbath was part of a Covenant between God and Israel, and as pointed out here before, it was something that distinguished them from the Gentiles. So, it was necessary in those days, while the Old Testament was still the Covenant before Jesus fulfilled it. We still use it as a reference to know what is good before God, and it´s still God´s law, but we are saved through faith in Jesus, not through a careful observance of the Law.
The Law has three purposes as i understand so far:
"The Book of Concord
The Formula of Concord distinguished three uses, or purposes, in the Law in Article VI. It states: "[T]he Law was given to men for three reasons. . ."
1. that "thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]"
2. that "men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins"
3. that "after they are regenerate. . .they might. . .have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life""
source – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Gospel
I hope that helps.
Kate said "Thanks for responding to me! I do understand what you are saying. Christ's 2 commandments cover and even enhance the 10 commandments." which is exactly what I said (but in different words) and you never pulled her up about it. This shows just how much you have against the LDS church and its members.
True to mormon form , you quoted the part you wanted to use, but left out the most important part! I also said "BUT WE DON'T USE THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AS LAW ANYMORE." Jesus fulfilled the law. This is the part I didn't get as a mormon either. As a Christian, it makes perfect sense!
I have had a mormon apologist say things like that to me too. Not just about the Book of Abraham either. I guess they think if they minimize the importance of it, eventually the mormon masses will come to believe that it just doesn't matter. Never mind the fact that who they believe Christ to be comes from the Book of Abraham. It's no wonder they can't just ditch the thing. As someone else said on another blog, it's easier to come up with strange and outlandish theories, no matter how torturous, than to admit Joseph Smith was wrong.
Isn't that all part of 'fellowship'?
Its true, you can't force anything on anyone. I am not sure I understand what you are proposing, but it sounds like you are suggesting there are 'elective' commandments and observences. Christians, like the Jews before them are meant to have something that sets them apart from everyone else. "Peculiar" is the word used in the KJV. 1 Peter 2:9 If and when a Christian remove too many commandments this peculiar something is lost.
When I lived in a particular town not too long ago I noticed something. There wasn't anything 'peculiar' about the Christians living there. Of course the town was probably 95% or more christian of some type. The only people 'peculiar' seemed to be the few Sikhs, and a single jew I saw wearing his yamaka.
I don't understand the opposition to the observation of the sabbath. That is what gave the US the weekend, and everyone seems to look forward to the weekend. Perhaps its corporations which are behind this? So they can increase the work week and reduce wages?
"It's no wonder they can't just ditch the thing. As someone else said on another blog, it's easier to come up with strange and outlandish theories, no matter how torturous, than to admit Joseph Smith was wrong."
I know, and it surprises me they haven´t done anything about the way they did with the Lectures of Faith when they just yanked it out. Maybe Monson will have a revelation and replace the content of the book of Abraham with a new section in D&C.
"Its true, you can't force anything on anyone. I am not sure I understand what you are proposing, but it sounds like you are suggesting there are 'elective' commandments and observences."
Engkei, i´m not suggesting that at all. I´m not going to repeat what i already explained i forget how many times already.
"There wasn't anything 'peculiar' about the Christians living there."
You need to read a newer translation. 1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."
We are not supposed to have peculiar behavior, the new testament says that Christians are to let their light shine, and that light is Jesus. Also it is expected of Christians to do good works, and to love one another. You don´t have to have a peculiar practice – that´s not what Peter meant.
"I don't understand the opposition to the observation of the sabbath."
Again, i´m not opposing it. If you want to keep the Sabbath, go ahead. But if you do, at least do it the right way. And don´t go around saying that people should keep a holy day, because that´s not demanded anymore, especially from Gentiles.
"Perhaps its corporations which are behind this? So they can increase the work week and reduce wages?"
Corporations would definitely like that, and that´s already been happening for the last decade if not more, and i´m sure you know that lots of people already work on weekends. No, corporations are not behind it… read the other comments before saying that kind of nonsense.
"We are not supposed to have peculiar behavior, the new testament says that Christians are to let their light shine, and that light is Jesus."
So a christian isn't different after finding jesus? different than pre-jesus?