One argument that I no longer use against RLSS (see background here) is the argument that Mormonism essentially yields a small proportion of never-sinned Gods in ultimate reality.
Put your thinking caps on.
This argument works if all you have in each generation of the Gods are singular eternally-sinless firstborn spirit sons and then other spirit children who inevitably sin. But there is another category in Mormonism: those who sufficiently merit Godhood in pre-mortality so as to warrant an early ordained childhood death. Mormon leaders have taught that children who die before the age of accountability are assured to reach full exaltation (and implied Godhood). Given the historic infant mortality rates, etc., this potentially yields an enormous number of perhaps-never-sinned spirit children who are assured Godhood.
But even whether these children never sinned isn’t so clear. It is further complicated by the teaching of some Mormon leaders that the atonement of Jesus retroactively applied to sins committed in pre-mortality. In other words, there is the question of whether such spirit children have already sinned and received a retroactively-applied atonement. This strain of thought contains multiple factors and uncertainties (relative to Mormon theology), but it nonetheless invalidates the argument that Mormonism necessarily posits a universe where most of the Gods have sinned.
But it gets even messier. Mormonism speaks of the eternal plan of salvation, as experienced by us now sin-ridden mortals, as being the standard plan. But if the above strain of thought is correct, then another problem arises: what we are experiencing really is a second-rate plan for morally inferior spirit children. In other words, the “plan of salvation” we are experiencing would be a giant “Plan B” for mediocre spirit children who didn’t accomplish what other spirit children did (who earned the right to die before the mortal age of accountability, being assured of future exaltation and Godhood).
Is that perfectly clear now?
While Mormonism might not yield a small proportion of never-sinned Gods in ultimate reality, it does yield some Gods who were once sinners. And that alone, with or without high proportionality, is quite a problem.
"Mormon leaders have taught that children who die before the age of accountability are assured to reach full exaltation (and implied Godhood). Given the historic infant mortality rates, etc., this potentially yields an enormous number of perhaps-never-sinned spirit children who are assured Godhood."
The BoM doesn´t teach that the children where sinless. It teaches that Christ through His Grace freely gives them forgiveness for their first 8 years.
Moroni 8:"8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."
"20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption."
That´s one of the most confusing doctrines ever. Children can´t sin, and that´s because of Jesus who took the curse of Adam from them. That was brought about by Jesus´ atonement, and therefore that´s not a condition given by God by default – which means that they actually do sin, but they are already freely forgiven because of God´s Grace(hmmm). When they turn eight years old, Jesus returns the curse to them(man, that sucks). Also it is interesting that the BoM says that the curse of Adam was taken from them… so, according to the LDS, would that curse of Adam be physical and spiritual death, or the fact that they are sinners by nature because of Adam´s transgression?
What a loop you have to go through to deal with mormon theology. I´ll have to read that article a couple more times to address the main argument.
What was the question that was posed to Jesus? The one about the blind man. That might have some answers. ' Plan B'???? "PlanB?" Is this like the plan we are going through at this moment. When we were supposed to spend our life in the garden of eden until we rebelled and ate of the forbidden fruit. And God had to sacrifice his son.
(who earned the right to die before the mortaleing assured of future exaltation and Godhood). How did they earn the right to die?
Thinking about your comments more Makes me realize that you don't have a clear grasp of how God works( from the Mormon perspective at least). One thought that I remember from a class I took(institute or seminary) said that Children that die before the age of accountability would be raised by people in the next world.
Clyde,
Children that die before the age of accountability would be raised by people in the next world.
I'm a little confused about this one. Years ago I had several miscarriages and was told not to be sad about it because my husband and I would be raising those babies in the next life. Several years later, my friend's little 3 year old son was killed and during his funeral, one of the speakers (man holding the priesthood) told her and her husband not to worry about their little son because he was an adult now. Everyone is a young adult on the other side of the veil. So which is it? Is their son already an adult? Or is he forever a little boy until his parents get over there to raise him?
f_melo
What a loop you have to go through to deal with mormon theology.
I totally agree. There is such freedom in the true and living Christ of the Bible. I wish my mormon family and friends could just see it. It's frustrating sometimes.
Aaron,
There you go again causing trouble! Can't you just leave well enough alone? Mormons don't like us gentiles talking and discussing this stuff. You see, we're just not hip enough spiritually. You have to be a Mormon with the requisite bosom burning and been weened off the milk bottle before you can delve into these deep, I mean really deep, issues. This stuff is for Mormons to entertain each other down at the wards; waxing eloquent while wearing their Mormon smarty pants.
I often say that it would all be really funny if it weren't so sad. Is there any doubt that Mormonism is a full free fall, blue sky, meandering herd of lemmings in search of a cogent thought? And off the spiritual cliff they go, bosoms burning all the way down until they crash.
I'm a pretty creative guy. I could come up with some good Mormon doctrine on this topic. I'll think about it.
I think what you are seeing here are various personal opinions based on individual understanding of the Mormon afterlife doctrines. I am not aware of any official stance on the body age status of children who die on earth. People can try to fill in the blanks in what has been revealed in the scriptures, but that is all.
But I think I like either one of those options better than what I believe the Evangelical stance to be … those babies will go to Hell as they have not been saved or had the chance to accept Jesus in this life. I'm sure somebody here can let me know if I am mistaken.
I was re-reading Genesis and the Garden of Eden story again and it struck me how strange it is that Mormons have taken the story and meaning of the Garden of Eden and turned it upside down. Not only that, but they move everything that happened in the garden into a "pre-existence" instead of just letting the garden be the garden and original sin be original sin.
This is how I understand pre-existence and, thus, the children getting a free pass and then the plan for salvation and everything (of course, as I'm not a Mormon, I've probably got something wrong here): God birthed us all as spirit children in heaven with him. And at some point, we decide we want to be born into earth. So God gives us free will (free agency?) to go off and be born into this world, where we don't remember knowing him and have the opportunity to come to know him again and find his church here on earth. If we use our agency to do this, if we don't let sin and Satan lead our lives, then with the help of Christ's Atonement, we can work to become worthy and return to God in heaven.
Now, here's how I have always understood the Garden of Eden: God created the world out of nothing, and He created man and woman and gave them paradise, living in God's immediate presence. Adam and Eve fell into temptation and disobeyed God. God was upset and drove them out of his presence and out of the garden, where they would always be tempted and drawn to sin. But then he sent Jesus Christ to be gracious and merciful on all of us sinners, and he gave us the opportunity to return to his presence in the paradise of heaven and eternal life.
My question is: why isn't the Bible, God's word, reality, good enough for Mormons? Why do they have to make other stuff up?
Fmelo,
The basic is – children cannot sin. Why? ”To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17)” (from LDS.org). Children do not have a knowledge of truth until they are taught it. This is why there is an age of accountability where Satan cannot tempt the children until they have been taught about God and His goodness and truths. Yes, they make mistakes and do the wrong thing like lying and stealing, etc, but that is a ‘wrong’ not a ‘sin’ as they do not fully understand what they have done. They are innocent of the law not ignorant of it. So Jesus’ Atonement still covers their wrongs, but it also is the enmity between the seed of Eve and Satan which allows for the age of accountability.
A good example of this is the STNG episode ‘Justice’. I disagree with how Capt. Picard argued the point, but look at Wesley’s predicament and figure out what is just and merciful and how you would defend him.
Were we supposed to stay in the garden of eden?
"The basic is – children cannot sin. Why? ”To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17)”
Ralph, so explain to me then why is Jesus´ atonement necessary to grant that grace period to children – shouldn´t that exist regardless of the atonement if the truth is that children really can´t sin? I´ve also known a few children below the age of eight that were very smart and were aware of doing what was wrong.
"Yes, they make mistakes and do the wrong thing like lying and stealing, etc, but that is a ‘wrong’ not a ‘sin’ as they do not fully understand what they have done. They are innocent of the law not ignorant of it."
Lying and stealing are sins, Ralph. How can you know that they don´t fully understand what they´ve done? I know adults who didn´t fully understand what they had done that got them into trouble… would that mean that they are excused? Again, you´re working only with assumptions here. You have no idea what you´re talking about.
"They are innocent of the law not ignorant of it."
According to Moroni that happens because of the atonement of Jesus, not because they are born that way. It even says that the curse of Adam was removed from them…
"but it also is the enmity between the seed of Eve and Satan which allows for the age of accountability. "
Never heard of that before, could you explain?
Ralph,
I think you're missing the point. This isn't about the age of accountability, it's about the dream land fantasy world that Mormon doctrine resides in. How do Mormons know this stuff? Someone got a revelation. And the revelation is based on what? That someone got a revelation. It's the old Mormon run around the circle and speculate and come up with all sorts of creative nonsense to fill in the holes that dot Mormon doctrine where ever someone looks.
What attracted folks to Smith in the beginning was his pronouncement that the rank and file could get direct revelation from God. This caused a real problem for him eventually because who was to say that Smith's revelation were any more valid than any one else's.
I'll come up with something Ralph, feel good about it, and call it revelation.
Hay Sarah,
You forgot a very important Mormon doctrine as pronounced by that spiritual giant Brigham Young. It's called the Adam-God doctrine and Brigham, if full prophetic mode, said that Adam and the Mormon god are the same persons. Mormons high tail it as fast as they can away from the Prophet Young on this one because it's dumb and unacceptable even by Mormon standards. It's kind of challenging though because we've got this prophet speaking for the Mormon god who as it turns out was just giving his opinion, according to modern day Mormons.
There's a lot of back filling that needs to happen in Mormonism.
Sarah, you pose a great question. Mormonism tauts itself as the one true church which is led by
a modern day prophet who relays truth from God to mankind, hence new scripture is created as
well as interpretation on existing scripture (the Bible) . Since Mormon prophets/apostles claim
the authority to correctly interpret the written Word, then new doctrines suddenly appear . Mormon
doctrine is whatever the current prophet emphasizes it seems, thus teachings that have no basis
from a Biblical support are considered "normal". In short, if the Bible was enough for Mormons
then we really would'nt have Mormonism ! ww
The only difference between mormonism and biblical Christianity is: the nature of God, and the nature of sin. Other than that, we're all good.
Shawn McCraney said something in his last show, Interview II, (or maybe Interview I), that a student studying Christianity knew this answer. In Romans it says something about we die. We die because we sin, that is why even children, babies die. Isn't the payment for sin death? Jesus paid our debt for our sin so that we may live again. Children don't have to know the name Jesus, or babies, to be saved though. If we were perfect, and never sinned, we would never die. We are born with original sin.
Aaron, I think you do a good job bringing the "long ago and far away" Mormon problems to the here-and-now. The Joseph Smith solutions ultimately produce the same questions he was trying to answer, when pressed.
WW,
That's the fun for Mormons. Just a steady flow of new information from the Mormon god. Problem is, the new batch of Mormon prophets and apostles don't have much to say except a lot of rah rah sis boom bah platitude and fire-up the troops kind of speeches. In the old days with Smith, Young et al, these guys were a constant stream of revelation. But those were in the days when things were isolated so just those in the loop would be privy to the stuff. Now with the internet and all the fact checking that goes on, the boys in SLC have toned down their seer(ing). I guess they need to break Joe's rock out of the vault and do some crystal gazing. Maybe that might get them in the mood to take a crack at foretelling or clearing up the doctrinal mess that's been created over the years. They could start by explaining where Mormon children who die before the age of reason reside.
Mike, thanks for the comment. The standard (although not uniform) evangelical position is that children who die go to heaven.
Also, notice that I made zero appeal in my original post to the idea of something being "official" doctrine. I don't buy the idea that evangelical engagement of Mormonism has to be limited to that which is considered "official." I have a forthcoming blog post on my reasoning for this. For now you can read my related article on the matter:
http://mrm.org/official-doctrine
Grace and peace,
Aaron
"But I think I like either one of those options better than what I believe the Evangelical stance to be … "”
Mike, while i understand your concern, are you saying that this is a matter of what suits you and not what the truth is? Do you mean to say that you prefer to believe a fairytale than to face the truth whatever it may be? If that´s the case then, i´ll start making up my own religion that comforts me in whatever way i see the need, and it will always be "better" than what Jesus taught, in my own eyes. You can see today "preachers" denying the doctrine of Hell, because they don´t want to believe what Jesus clearly taught, and are horrified of the fact that God would eternally punish people… yet, that´s what Jesus taught on many occasions. Mormons ridicule the idea of a literal hell, described as a place burning with fire, but those are the very words Jesus used! Are you mocking Jesus?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Having said that, I´ll go with Aaron on this, because of how Jesus treated little children, how he pointed to them as the model for those who want to have a true relationship with God.
Matthew 18:"2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Yes, that was what God wanted for us, to live in Paradise.
Mormons have this messed up notion that Adam and Eve were innocent(true) and therefore could not have had children. Yet, the thing is, animals are innocent and they can normally reproduce, it´s not a dirty thing that you have to have malice to have a need for it, Adam and Eve could have very well reproduced while in a state of innocence.
As to population control, there having no death, i have no Idea, but i´m sure God had that figured out.
"Thinking about your comments more Makes me realize that you don't have a clear grasp of how God works"
The God of the Bible is a merciful, loving, kind, just, jealous(in the sense that He doesn´t admit His creatures worshiping non-gods), etc. Evil was never ever part of His nature and never will be. By the stories of the deeply flawed men of the Bible in both Old and New Testament i can see how God has dealt with people, and the bottom line is to have faith in Him, to trust and love Him.
The Mormon god, isn´t really a god as the Biblical God is. That god is a dualistic being who can break the eternal laws imposed by the intelligences, and has the freedom to do so. Evil was an integral of part of his being in his mortal probation, and the fact that he can cease to be god implies that there´s still room for evil in his nature… Just the fact that the mormon god is ruled by eternal rules that are above and beyond him shows that he doesn´t necessarily has to be just, loving, etc. He has to be those things in order to keep his powers as god, but other than that who knows what goes through his head… The Celestial Kingdom then is what Joseph said in D&C, it´s the same as life here, but with immortality and glory.
So, Clyde, you´re probably right that we don´t really understand how the mormon god operates, we don´t even understand if your god himself does it either, because he´s just a pawn in a scheme much greater than himself. Also, if we depend on the reliability of mormon prophets to get accurate info on god, no one will ever understand how your god works, ever.
f-melo, you said,
" Also, if we depend on the RELIABILITY of mormon prophets to get accurate info on god
no one will ever understand how your god works. "
Bingo !
ww
Is this a lesser plan than what God had originally intended?
Ralph,
The interesting thing I got out of that is the possibility that one had sin even before one is born. The LDS belief concerning the origin of Satan and demons, isn't it that they sinned and left their first estate? I imagine that its a particular sin, I never considered the possibility that there could be sins which are counted against children that didn't merit explusion from a visit to planet earth. (Being denied a body)
Without any reference to LDS writings, I am not so sure that there is any foundation for this idea. I always assumed that any sin in premortality would deny that we come to earth. but this seems to suggest other possibilities. Any insight?
Aaron,
What are the references to LDS statements concerning premortal sins? I always assumed that any sin before earth life eliminated the possibility of even coming to earth. Its interesting that a child could have sin that they aren't even aware of before the age of accountability. As humans in general don't have premortal memories.
Isn't there a darker side to this idea? I have heard of depressed mothers or one with bipolar disorders or something killing their own children so that they go to heaven? Its a horrible thing to believe that ever happens. I don't think thats a normal lds thought, but children that die in this manner would be covered?
Its a very strange thing to review, but very interesting. Is there any equal belief in the Christian faith? Is there an age of accountability in broader christian faith?
"I don't think thats a normal lds thought, but children that die in this manner would be covered? "
If it happens before the child completes eight, they are covered.
F Melo,
That is just too strange and horrific.
Mike,
These ideas also comment on premortal belief of the LDS faith. That part isn't so clearly established in the broader christian faith. In fact, I think premortal life a distinctive LDS teaching. there might be some christians who incorporate reincarnation, but those are not usually considered 'orthodox', it also concerns lives that people lived in the flesh somewhere before this current life.
I read Aarons comment on evangelicals believing that children who die go to heaven. I am not sure how he got that, but I am sure he will explain at some point. It is interesting how there are 'official' teachings and traditions and 'unofficial' teachings within the LDS faith. Why would there be a distinction of official and unofficial? Why aren't the unofficial beliefs totally abandoned if there is no sound doctrinal foundation, in either scripture, or recognized authority comments?
F Melo and others,
Many people believe that the capacity for moral thought is only l limited to humanity. I don't know if anyone can really comment on that, as I only know human experience. I am sure the Bible informs believers in some way reguarding any moral capacity of animals. Does it do so anywhere in the Bible? Also what about salvation as far as animals are concerned?
Curious, but interesting side roads in commentaries. Any LDS care to comment on these topics? What about the premortal existence of animals, plants and other organisms, and their potential spiritual progression?
Clyde,
I just had another thought, which might be a problem for LDS theology. If children die before the age of accountability. (younger than 8) They go to the celestial kingdom. However, can they achieve the highest state? They are too young to get married, so is exaltation available to them?
Thank you for the response. Good to know.
"… are you saying that this is a matter of what suits you and not what the truth is? Do you mean to say that you prefer to believe a fairytale than to face the truth whatever it may be?"
No, that's not what I meant to say, but I can see how it might have come across that way. It was more of an after-thought. As neither persective has an official stance I was merely stating a preference. But Aaron's clarification of the Evangelical perspective has cleared things up. Thank you.
" It is interesting how there are 'official' teachings and traditions and 'unofficial' teachings within the LDS faith. Why would there be a distinction of official and unofficial? Why aren't the unofficial beliefs totally abandoned if there is no sound doctrinal foundation, in either scripture, or recognized authority comments?"
Engkei, you got a + 1 for that. That was and is one of the most important selling points of mormonism: "We have a prophet and because of that we don´t have suffer with confusion, because God speaks directly to him and we have a direct, clear line of communication". You´ve just highlighted that they are just like any Christian denomination, that have official and unofficial beliefs that have points of doctrine that are obscure and others that are very clear, etc. Them having a prophet becomes a non-event, since he doesn´t in any way show the knowledge and understanding that should come from someone with a direct and clear line of communication with God that nobody else on earth can enjoy!
Monson´s gift as a prophet should be something that would naturally glow in this "darkness" the LDS say the Christian denominations are in. Remember Jesus, how he impressed people with knowledge and wisdom? Actually, the LDS leadership while professionally competent and able men, they don´t manifest anything out of the ordinary in terms of spirituality, faith or knowledge of the things of God. They don´t even go around testifying of seeing Jesus resurrected as the true Apostles did.
If the LDS leaders were truly guided by God since the beginning they wouldn´t be in the doctrinal mess they are in today.
No, Clyde. What happened was that God didn´t create little robots toys without freedom. He loved us and allowed us to love Him in truth, which Adam and Eve chose not to and because of them we are in this mess. Thanks be to God who came down from His throne of glory to become a mortal man and go through this life and to take in His physical body the punishment reserved to us.
"That is just too strange and horrific."
Agreed. It´s also disturbing to think that if that was the case why don´t we just kill every child before the turn 8? We would be exalting them all in the Celestial Kingdom!
That was something that i actually asked a family member once. The response i got was that God needed people here for some missions, and he wanted others to be guaranteed by His side, which made me feel very disturbed because i would keep thinking about why God didn´t just take me to be with Him.
Another disturbing thing is when mormons talk about a child with a mental disability as if that child is a spirit so precious that god didn´t want to allow it to be tempted by the Devil and be lost. So He sent them to earth to remain in that state so that they could get a body, and eventually would die pure as a child. I always thought that was kind of messed up, now i do even more.
Do you remember anything of the reason for the fall? We are here to gain Knowledge. To know good from evil. If God had not kicked Adam and Eve out they probably would have eaten of the tree of life without any hands on experience of what life is all about. We are seperated from God but through Jesus we can be reconciled to Him.
I get so irritated when told that something relating to mormonism isn't "official". If the mormon masses are believing it and practicing it, or if past or present leaders preached it, then it is fair game to be studied and questioned. I'm sure that when Brigham Young gave his famous Adam/God doctrine he considered it "official". This one really irks me because mormons now days just blow it off as "oh, well he wasn't speaking as the prophet" or "that was just his opinion". I would like them to try telling that to the thousands of people who died believing Adam is God. Brigham Young WAS speaking as the prophet and he was NOT afraid to do so.
Clyde,
That story is like pandoras box…you aren't supposed to question if pandora never opened the box or not. Its an origin story about the origin of evil and sin. Related to it is the moral capacity of humans to judge something right or wrong. Such a story has no meaning for a bacteria, as they don't judge.
Let's face it folks, we're dealing with a lot of speculation here. With Mormonism it's all speculation masquerading as revelation. With Christians, we're just trying to "tease out" a position on the death of children before the age of reason. I won't go into the Catholic position of my youth because they have dumped it.
With Mormonism, let's not forget, it's all about men becoming gods. So that's were they're going to head on the subject. Everybody avoids hell in Mormonism unless I guess you dump the Mormon program and spin off into outer darkness.
To be quite honest, I don't know what the point of speculation from a Christian point of view is unless it is to give some theologians something to do. I suppose it's to give comfort to parents who have lost a child. That's understandable.
Engkei, I know it's hard for you , but could you try to stay on topic ? Thanks.
ww
Kate,
From what I have learned, the spirit is an adult, having grown to adulthood in the pre-existence, while the body is an infant. So when a person dies, their spirit will exist as an adult until it is resurrected again into the infant body, where it will receive the chance to grow, develop and mature into an adult. Since this will happen after the resurrection and within the millenium these children will grow up in a perfect world under perfect circumstances.
" We are here to gain Knowledge. To know good from evil."
Clyde, as usual mormons and mormonism gets it all backwards. It´s because they doubted the word of God and wanted to be able to live independent from Him, by their own judgement according to that knowledge, that they fell.
"Adam and Eve out they probably would have eaten of the tree of life without any hands on experience of what life is all about."
They were immortal, they didn´t need that tree(some say that it was the tree that kept them alive, so the punishment that brought death was actually God not allowing them to keep eating of the tree, i´m not sure about that but it´s an interesting topic that i´ll save for when that´s the main subject) – and how did they not know what life was all about? They were alive, living life! The perfect life! And they fell into temptation and lost it all.
Again that´s a reflection of the idea that the mormon god is a dualistic being. There has to be evil in order for good to exist, and that would mean that God has to be exposed to evil in order for Him to be good. It also comes from the mormon idea that there´s no happiness without misery, there´s no pleasure without pain, etc.. It may be so in this current condition, but in eternity we´ll no longer be battling this corrupted flesh, we´ll be free from evil and sin and we´ll have a very happy eternal life without them.
"We are seperated from God but through Jesus we can be reconciled to Him."
You´ve finally got something right!
The notion that you reach Salvation through knowledge was something that the Gnostics believed. What God actually requires of us is to believe in His son. We might have a hard time understanding the details of certain theological topics, but i don´t think that will be a problem. We don´t have to have a degree to get to know God and Jesus and to trust Him.
" I never understood the reasoning that someone with a mental impairment has a special salvation status. "
Because those people are not able to judge between good and evil, according their belief, and therefore God won´t hold them accountable for their actions, which means that they don´t sin. Engkei – wow, i just had an insight – that means that Jesus wasn´t the only sinless man to live on earth! He might have been the only sinless mentally able man to walk on earth, but not the only one. To see if that makes sense, i´d have to find out whether that condition is granted to those people through Jesus´ atonement, because if it´s not then the LDS have another major problem regarding Jesus, reducing His importance even more in mormon theology.
Wow. I think this is one of the biggest and most devastating misinterpretations and misrepresentations that Mormons have.
We are here to gain Knowledge. To know good from evil.
God FORBID the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. God said, DON'T DO IT.
It is SATAN who says, in Genesis Chapter 3 that Eve should eat the fruit. SATAN tempts Eve with the knowledge of good and evil and Eve gives in to the sin and temptation and eats of it. It is SATAN who plants the seed in humanity that there is something we can do besides obey God. Mormonism's entire plan of eternal progression, the doctrine of the ability to become gods and be (literally) immortal and be (literally) like God — these things are of SATAN.
Let's take a look at Genesis Chapter 3 again …
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[skipping ahead]
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man
I really don't know how much plainer the Bible can be.
God created man to live in paradise alongside God. Enter Satan, who tempted man with delusions of grandeur, of knowledge, of power, of immortality. Man gave in. God saw that it was NOT GOOD. And He drove man out of His presence. He tells man he will die one day, instead of living forever in God's presence. I don't even understand how you can see the fall as anything else but a DIRECT disobeying of God's command.
How do we know we are happy without knowing sadness? The correct answer is you don't.
What did adam and eve know prior to taking a bite of the fruit of the tree of good and evil?
falcon, when you mention the "doctrinal mess that's been created over the years " by Mormon leaders
you are correct.It's like doctors who have hurt patients because of their errors. There are those who are
trying to compile a record of those doctors who have not been reliable in their duty, and make this record
available to the public. Likewise when we peruse the teaching record of Mormon prophets/apostles we
we see a pattern emerge, a track record of vacillating on doctrine, a confusion of what is truth etc. For LDS
to refuse to obey God and dismiss these men from their lives is akin to a person who harbors a lawbreaker
in their home, when he is caught and punished , those that harbored him will be punished also no matter
how moral of a lifestyle they may otherwise be living. So too LDS will be punished for breaking God's
standard by harboring a false prophet in their lives. Our hearts ache for the Mormon people ! Matt 7:15
f-melo, you said,
" Actually, the LDS leadership while professionally competent and able men, they don't manifest
anything out of the ordinary in terms of spirituality , faith or knowledge of the things of God. "
That statement should be framed and hung in every LDS home.
It may help hasten the day for LDS to realize they need to follow Jesus fully, not "follow the prophet" .
ww
Well, isn´t your god enjoying the fullness of joy at this very moment?
How about the spirit children, how did they know sadness? They lived in the presence of God without pain and suffering. Were they miserable because they didn´t know sadness?
They knew what God taught them. Adam named all the animals that God brought before him. He wasn´t like an animal, as some people try to say. They also knew how to take car of God´s creation, since their duty was to keep the garden.
Engkei,
Great question. I've never thought about that before. I wonder if say, a child of 6 dies, do they still do all of the temple work for them? If they do then that takes care of that! (In the mormon mind) They could be baptised and sealed to a spouse and also their family. Would it be the same as if I were to die today and my family had my "work" done? Of course I could accept or reject it over there, but the work would be done.