This is the Christ of Mormonism:
1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.
2. He is the brother of satan.
3. He had to earn his own salvation while he was on earth.
4. He offers his “grace” only to those who work hard enough.
5. He is not from everlasting to everlasting, but was created a finite time ago by his father god, who in turn was also created by his own father god, who in turn was created by his own father god, so on and so forth
6. He is not the greatest being possible.
7. He is finite.
8. His blood is not powerful enough to wipe away any sin.
9. He aided his father in creating earth by organizing already existing matter; he is not capable of creating things out of nothing.
10. He must submit to a moral law that existed before he did.
11. You can one day become just like him.
This is the Christ of the Bible:
1. He is a spirit being that transcends space and time.
2. He is the brother of no creature; He is God, from everlasting to everlasting. No one can claim kinship with Him except those He purchased for Himself on the cross. And He is not the same type of creature they are. He is not a creature, He is God.
3. Jesus is the Author of Salvation; to say that He needed to earn His salvation is absurdity.
4. He offers His sovereign grace to whomever He sovereignly chooses; we are all tainted by sin and vile in His holy eyes. Therefore, no one is more worthy than any other human being. Thus, His grace that He offers is given unconditionally. His grace is true grace, a beautiful gift.
5. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He was never created, and Has been in relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit forever.
6. He is the greatest being possible, the Most High God. There is no one like Him and there is no one who will ever be anything like Him.
7. He is infinite, both in essence and in His divine perfections.
8. His blood is powerful enough to wipe away any sin, regardless of heinousness and duration. The only sin that cannot be forgive is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; and this is not because the blood of Christ is not powerful enough to wash it away, but because God has so sovereignly decreed that all persons who blaspheme the Holy Ghost should not receive forgiveness.
9. He created everything that exists out of nothing by the mere word of His mouth.
10. There is no external law that He submits to; He is the Author and the Source of the Law.
11. No one can ever come near to obtaining the glory and excellency of Christ.
Excellent post.
Aberrant religious cults attack the Lord Jesus because that's what the father of their faith leads them to do. By leading these folks to reject Jesus for a blasphemous false Christ, they are rejecting the salvation that God offers them (through His Son). One can only be saved by a qualified Savior. The description of the Mormon jesus is so disgusting that those who accept it are a stench in the nostrils of God.
Now here's the clincher, the fact that it is so disgusting and revolting leads Mormons to think that they have some type of superior personal faith that only the truly spiritually superior person can comprehend. That's one of the characteristics of cults. The more disgusting and convoluted an idea, the more they embrace it. How deceived are these people? How lost are they?
I thought the Christ of mormonism also had to 'progress' to Godhood. Aaron's 'God Never Sinned' videos also mention that some mormons felt relief that Christ could have sinned, because that gives them hope.
You can only really understand reality – and who you are yourself – when you understand who Christ really is. It puts everything into Truth's perspective.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
– John 17:3
Mormons don´t live to give glory to God, they live to glorify themselves and to exalt themselves(just go to a fast and testimony meeting to see them setting themselves up as examples of righteousness) – so, when they face the reality that they are miserably failing at that, it comes as a comfort that their god sucked as badly as they do and still was able to make it.
All the cults come up against the same problem; what do we do with Jesus? They can't ignore him, much as they might like to, so they have to make him less. Yeah, Jesus, sure, but look at this over here. Of course, Jesus, absolutely, but did you know there was a plan? Let me tell you about Joseph Smith who, on a beautiful spring morning…
What is the support of the ideas in each list? For example, I never heard any LDS member say that the blood of christ doesn't clean away any sin. Many mormons express the idea that Jesus was God on earth, the creator of everything, that seems to be in confllict with everything stated about LDS belief above.
I always wonder how many Mormons even know about these differences. I mean, that the biblical Jesus is the way he is and not the way Mormonism paint him. If they just go with the flow and don't know any better. Or if they outright reject the biblical Jesus in favor of the Mormon Jesus.
It's a question of authenticity? To thine own self be true? I realized recently that there could be some far reaching implications of what it means to be authentic.
Every time we have a topic like this I feel that I should take about a week off of posting because I get so irritated and angry. What just flips my switch is that what we know about Jesus isn't a mystery. God has revealed His Son in the Holy Scriptures. Now we get some religious entrepreneurs who bill themselves as prophets and come up with doctrines that aren't off a little bit, but they are a direct affront against the person of God. And to top it off, these pretenders and impostors exalt themselves as seers, revelators and proclaimers of deep mysteries.
Their followers jump up and down like they've just found the mother's load and what they have is pure fools gold. It glitters to the eye of some, but it is totally worthless.
Who would reject Jesus for this fake Christ?
The friend's name is Ed Decker. Or did he just graduate from the Ed Decker school of what mormons believe? I don't see either one explaining how I can be an heir of God and joint-heir of Jesus christ. Am I missing something?
Engkei, what if i went around telling people that you teach everyone here at MC that Jesus Christ is the only way to God?
Of course you would call me out on my lies. That´s what this is all about. There is one true Jesus and many people are not satisfied with that and feel the need to invent their fake version of Jesus to make money and gain power off of Him.
"What is the support of the ideas in each list? For example, I never heard any LDS member say that the blood of christ doesn't clean away any sin. Many mormons express the idea that Jesus was God on earth, the creator of everything, that seems to be in confllict with everything stated about LDS belief above."
I believe you´ve been around here long enough to know better… Is it okay if i say that Baal also died for my sins, rename him Jesus and that therefore means that he is the real Jesus?
Engkei, there were a couple of points that I had to re-read because they did'nt quite read right to me.
I realized though that the person who constructed the lists perhaps just did'nt articulate succinctly
every point etc. This should'nt take away from the fact that he/she has stated a number of the stark
differences between the Jesus [ Jehovah] declared by the Prophets in the O.T. and the Apostles in
in the N.T. , with the Jesus declared by the Prophets and Apostles of Mormonism. These differences
are massive, so much so that they form a great dividing line with truth on one side and falsehood
on the other, a falsehood that can be spiritual lethal to those who embrace it. ww
ww
Violet, perhaps you're thinking about what Mormons have said about the Father. Very, very rarely do I ever hear a Mormon say they believe Jesus perhaps sinned. That Jesus has never sinned (in both pre-mortality and mortality, etc.) is standard belief in Mormonism.
true… plus, I think on the whole, Mormons don't give it as much thought as say, ex-Mormon Christians. The ex-Mormon Christian is more likely to have looked at the actual doctrine and compared it against the Bible, instead of just believing what ever they feel is right at any particular moment, and thinking it true of Mormonism as a whole.
I heard Aaron talk before about the floating doctrine of Mormonism. Something along the lines of – even though the church doesn't officially teach a thing, most Mormons believe it because of the things they are led to believe. Like the God never sinned thing. Are most Mormons taught from the pulpit that God sinned? NO! But because they are taught that he was once like us, it stands to reason.
I think most Mormons would say no, if you asked them if they believed Jesus' blood didn't cleanse all sin. But it would be a guess, based on what sounded best to answer. Anyone thinking the same thing?
OK, clyde lay your wisdom on us. I really don't go for this LDS drive by shooter type of approach. Why don't you tell us who the Mormon Jesus is. I get an inkling that you've attended the LDS school of Biblical interpretation. So give us an exegesis of the Biblical verse that talks about being an heir of God and joint-heir of Christ Jesus.
I love the way the LDS bomb thrower types will insist that Christians are misrepresenting Mormon doctrine but can't clearly articulate the Mormon position themselves or explain that what Christians are saying isn't so. There's enough information out there from LDS sources regarding who the LDS say Jesus is that the Mormon folks can't hide it.
The problem is that Mormons are stuck with what their leaders have taught. It's all documented.
As a mormon i knew there was a difference but never bothered to check. The discussion usually revolved around how a person would be saved – Salvation by works vs. Salvation by Grace through faith.
" I don't see either one explaining how I can be an heir of God and joint-heir of Jesus christ"
Do you have an interpretation of that that doesn´t involve an extrapolation that says men will have such an enormous change of nature as to become god themselves?
F Melo,
Looking up the word Baal, I came to impression that it is a word of Hebrew origin, and does not express a specific name of a non-Hebrew god. I could be totally wrong, but it reads something like 'idol'? Are there any other gods other than christ dying for anyones sins? The concept of someone dying for someone elses sin is so particular to christianity, I don't know if that is an idea outside of the Bible.
LOL! "The floating doctrine of Mormonism" that brought up a certain image. Well, there is a large volume of writings from various LDS authors, that could make for a lot of confusion. Then there is also the newly converted LDS members bringing in their own ideas, or ideas about what they thought the missionaries said.
"Looking up the word Baal, I came to impression that it is a word of Hebrew origin, and does not express a specific name of a non-Hebrew god."
Engkei, i´m strongly doubting that you ever read the Bible and i´m starting to think you´re just trolling. Put there the name of whatever god you want, that wasn´t my point.
My point is that truth matters, and that there´s absolute truth. Nobody has the right to create whatever god they want and call it Jesus.
As I often say, it gets a little frustrating dealing with aberrant religious sects since the information about Jesus is knowable. The problem is, these folks like the LDS we are interacting with here, don't go outside of their circle in attempting to find information. If they do seek out outside sources, they tend to be of the liberal bent with proselytizers that are as lost as the Mormons themselves. The folks who work in apologetic ministries to Mormons make a point of reading and researching information that comes directly from Mormon (sources). In fact, there are all kinds of folks who would like to get into the LDS vault (archive) and poke around.
Why would anyone want to diminish Jesus and make Him less than He is? What would be the point of leading people to a Christ that isn't "thee" Christ, the qualified Savior and the only One who can save people from their sins? Who would have a stake in such a thing?
From the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, Satan sought to draw God's creation away from Him. When Satan confronted Jesus and tempted Him, it was in essence to get Jesus to give up the cross. Satan didn't have much to bargain with and was a poor match for our Lord and Savior. So Satan, continuing his quest for the souls of men, has, over the centuries, tempted and drawn away people who like (Lucifer) were/are more interested in their own glory than in submitting themselves to the glory of God.
Mormonism isn't the perfect counterfeit but it is effective for those who, like Adam and Eve, are willing to turn their attention away from God to the shinny object that Satan dangles in front of them.
I can't address the 'Mormon' list , but I'll have a go at the 'Christ of the Bible' list.
1. He is a spirit being that transcends space and time.
Ephesians 1:17-23, NKJV, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
He fills all in all!
2. He is the brother of no creature; He is God, from everlasting to everlasting. No one can claim kinship with Him except those He purchased for Himself on the cross. And He is not the same type of creature they are. He is not a creature, He is God.
Jesus speaking to the Jews, said in John 10:30-33, NKJV, 30 I and My Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Galatians 3:26-27, NKJV, 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Colossians 2:8-10, NKJV, 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
3. Jesus is the Author of Salvation; to say that He needed to earn His salvation is absurdity.
Hebrews 2:10, NKJV, For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. The word captain comes from archegos, translated 'author.' (See: http://www.biblestudyguide.org/articles/jesus-who…
Hebrews 12:1-2 , NKJV, 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
4. He offers His sovereign grace to whomever He sovereignly chooses; we are all tainted by sin and vile in His holy eyes. Therefore, no one is more worthy than any other human being. Thus, His grace that He offers is given unconditionally. His grace is true grace, a beautiful gift.
Romans 3:23, NKJV, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
1 John 1:8, NKJV, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Romans 6:23, NKJV, For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV, 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
continued
continued
5. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He was never created, and Has been in relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit forever.
John 1:1-2, NKJV, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 17:5, NKJV, And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Colossians 1:16, NKJV, For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
But to the Son He says: Hebrews 1:8-12, NKJV, 8 “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (See Psalm 45:6-7 and Psalm 102:25A-27)
6. He is the greatest being possible, the Most High God. There is no one like Him and there is no one who will ever be anything like Him.
Philippians 2:9-11, NKJV, 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Again, see Ephesians 1:22 (under number 1).
7. He is infinite, both in essence and in His divine perfections.
Revelation 1:8, NKJV, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13, NKJV, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
8. His blood is powerful enough to wipe away any sin, regardless of heinousness and duration.
1 John 1:7, NKJV, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
The only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; and this is not because the blood of Christ is not powerful enough to wash it away, but because God has so sovereignly decreed that all persons who blaspheme the Holy Ghost should not receive forgiveness.
Jesus said, in Matthew 12:31-32, NKJV, 31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
to be continued
continued
9. He created everything that exists out of nothing by the mere word of His mouth.
John 1:1-3, NKJV, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 17:5, NKJV, And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Colossians 1:16, NKJV, For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
10. There is no external law that He submits to; He is the Author and the Source of the Law.
(ran out of time to address this one and, so, invite the contributions of my capable fellow posters who know the Orthodox answer here)
11. No one can ever come near to obtaining the glory and excellency of Christ.
Philippians 2:5-11, NKJV, 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And, I add:
Hebrews 4:15, NKJV, For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 13:8, NKJV, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (So, Jesus has ALWAYS been without sin and always will be!)
Aaron. Found video testimony of Adam's Road guys, and Mr. and Mrs. Wilder. Thought you would be interested. http://welovemormons.blogspot.com/2011/03/feature…
1. He lives as a humanoid god on a star near Kolob along with his father god, bound by the physical world; he does not transcend the material.
(Kolob being the center of Creation — be that the Galaxy or the Universe is perhaps subject to interpretation. The fact that we've advanced as humans to see a multitude of Galaxies leads me to favor that God the Father is creator & ruler of the whole Universe. To claim that God "does not transcend the material" in Mormon belief is at best a misunderstanding. Assuming the prophet Joseph Smith was speaking in technical, theoretical terms & not in terms of his own observation/understanding when he described "spirit" as "more refined matter," he still acknowledges, like all Christians before him, that God controls the eternal "substance" (to use a good Nicene term) of the Universe, as well as the corruptible matter of this world. To say that Mormons do not believe that God "transcends the material" creation is minimalistic in a way that is disrespectful & untrue to their belief. While Mormons, because of their theology, are more inclined to think of God in materialistic terms than Classical Christians, we rightly do not claim to understand how God (either the Father or the redeemed Lord) relates in terms of matter or space/time to our present world.)
2. He is the brother of satan.
(Again, entirely disrespectful of the essence of Mormon belief. In theological terms, Jesus WAS the brother of Satan in the premortal realm, but in no sense more-so than he was a brother of you, I, Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Mahatma Gandhi, or the Apostle Paul — to name a few. Unlike classical Christians, Mormons do not believe that God created evil, but that he pro-created living agents — who subsequently chose evil, like Satan–& all of us who choose his sinful inheritance in this life.)
3. He had to earn his own salvation while he was on earth.
(Boloney. This is an utter misrepresentation of Mormon belief. Christ didn't "earn" salvation; he "chose" the righteousness that is his Father in Heaven. Righteousness is nature, not merit. But like us all, in the course of his life Christ was free to choose who he was going to be; & subsequently, who he was going to serve. Every Mormon is left to assume that God's infinite foreknowledge allowed him choose the right heir to be the Savior of mankind. Jesus was the best that the heavenly host had to offer, & he proved perfectly faithful through his life. But to say that he "earned" his salvation is not a good representation of Mormon belief at all.)
4. He offers his “grace” only to those who work hard enough.
(Again, boloney. This is an utter misrepresentation of Mormon belief. It is a disrespectful interpretation of Mormon belief through the lens of Evangelical soteriology.)
5. He is not from everlasting to everlasting, but was created a finite time ago by his father god, who in turn was also created by his own father god, who in turn was created by his own father god, so on and so forth.
(This presumes that God the Father has no other creations besides the one narrated for us in Genesis. Mormon belief does NOT presume this. Furthermore, this fails to acknowledge the Father as part of eternal society that is not bound by or limited to the workings of this Creation. In Mormon belief, the Father is the one God of our Creation, but we know that the reality of "God" goes far beyond the mere reality manifest in this Creation in which we participate & in only the minutest sense observe.)
(continued)
6. He is not the greatest being possible.
(Seeings I believe that he is, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know one thing for certain: Whether God the Father is the being described by Joseph Smith, or the being described in the Nicene creed, either way you, as a mortal, are not qualified to make this statement. A statement like this is always a matter of faith, that is, unless you qualify it in terms of Philosophy — & I certainly hope you're not saying that God should be defined by matters of Philosophical theory, are you? Such a confession would take us back to the concerns of Nicaea…& I'm pretty sure none of you Protestants want to go back to that place, as much as you doggedly cling to its edicts.)
7. He is finite.
(If you mean that he is in no way similar to Plato's Ideal set forth in the Timaeus, then I agree. He is a being capable of having real love for a creature like you or me.)
8. His blood is not powerful enough to wipe away any sin.
(Again, boloney. Not even sure where this claim comes from other than that Mormons, unlike Evangelicals, do not believe that acceptance of Christ as Savior in & of itself does anything more than assure our resurrection from the grave (a pretty amazing feat, if you ask me), & our restoration to the holy presence of the Father for a Final Judgment. However, last I checked, unlike Classical Christians, Mormons believe that once in God's presence in Judgment, Christ's blood is indeed "powerful enough" to make us wholly & essentially like Jesus Christ & God the Father. The ultimate seal of the Father's love to his faithful children.)
9. He aided his father in creating earth by organizing already existing matter; he is not capable of creating things out of nothing.
(Finally, I have to agree with something, though we must admit that Mormons believe that spirit, while "something," is not something that would be considered "something" by the limited standards of contemporary science.)
10. He must submit to a moral law that existed before he did.
(Again, finally we agree on Mormon belief.)
11. You can one day become just like him.
(And so can you, friend of Aaron. After all, that is what Christ came to earth for.)
Sincerely, mutu.
"he fact that we've advanced as humans to see a multitude of Galaxies leads me to favor that God the Father is creator & ruler of the whole Universe."
So, if i did become a god would i create a brand new universe? That being the case, is it true then that each god has his own universe? Now, consider that in your own theology the children of elohim will live on this earth that will become celestialized and this earth resides in this very universe and therefore your god didn´t create the universe he lives in. The problem obviously being that PoGP states that Kolob rules over all the planets in this universe rendering your argument absolutely false, your god isn´t the creator of the whole universe, even considering that your "creating" means organizing existing matter.
"that God controls the eternal "substance" (to use a good Nicene term) of the Universe, as well as the corruptible matter of this world."
You said a lot to explain nothing – your doctrine still teaches that all is matter and that means that god is tied in substance to this universe and he is a product of it.
"To say that Mormons do not believe that God "transcends the material" creation is minimalistic in a way that is disrespectful & untrue to their belief. While Mormons, because of their theology, are more inclined to think of God in materialistic terms than Classical Christians, we rightly do not claim to understand how God (either the Father or the redeemed Lord) relates in terms of matter or space/time to our present world.)"
Mantis, would you please stop being deceitful? Here´s what your scriptures teach about it:
D&C 130:22 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
We are not being disrespectful, your own doctrine delineates that your god is a material being and because of that he can´t dwell in us – that´s the reason your holy ghost didn´t get a body yet, so that he could function like the sun, being in one place his influence can reach everywhere.
"2. He is the brother of satan.
(Again, entirely disrespectful of the essence of Mormon belief. In theological terms, Jesus WAS the brother of Satan in the premortal realm, but in no sense more-so than he was a brother of you, I, Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Mahatma Gandhi, or the Apostle Paul — to name a few. Unlike classical Christians, Mormons do not believe that God created evil, but that he pro-created living agents — who subsequently chose evil, like Satan–& all of us who choose his sinful inheritance in this life.)"
What you don´t get though is how disrespectful you are being to the real Jesus when you put Him on the same level as Satan, a created being subject to Evil. Jesus is almighty God, He can´t become evil by His agency because there is no evil in His nature. Stop being disrespectful to Jesus.
What a silly argument that o god not creating evil – really, how could evil exist if god didn´t create it? Oh, that´s right, your god creates nothing, he only organizes what´s already there – so your very god is also subject to evil since his nature isn´t perfect in and of itself, considering that he´s subject to a law that is higher than him and precedes him… interesting, what a powerless god that is.
F_melo
I do not think you understand and I am not good at explaining it. God dwells in us through the Holy Ghost.
"3. He had to earn his own salvation while he was on earth.
(Boloney. This is an utter misrepresentation of Mormon belief. Christ didn't "earn" salvation; he "chose" the righteousness that is his Father in Heaven. "
Boloney is your explanation. Have you forgotten that the eternal laws of eternal progression precede your jesus? Everyone to become a god, as stated countless times by your own leaders has to obey those laws and that means that your jesus DID EARN his own salvation – everyone has to, including your very god that you worship.
"Every Mormon is left to assume that God's infinite foreknowledge allowed him choose the right heir to be the Savior of mankind. Jesus was the best that the heavenly host had to offer,"
You blasphemer of the name of Jesus. Jesus is only the "right" heir??????? Are you mad???
Jesus WAS THE BEST THAT THE HEAVENLY HOST HAD TO OFFER?????????????????
I´m praying that God will grant you the grace to repent of those blasphemous words, because you´re out of your mind to even have the courage to call Jesus the "best they had to offer"… You´re not a Christian by any stretch of imagination.
"4. He offers his “grace” only to those who work hard enough.
(Again, boloney. This is an utter misrepresentation of Mormon belief. It is a disrespectful interpretation of Mormon belief through the lens of Evangelical soteriology.)"
I´m going to ask you again to stop being deceitful, but i can see by your earlier comments you´re not only deceitful, you´re are also completely out of your mind.
2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
I can´t remember how many times i learned in seminary that God wants you to do your best that then Christ would do the rest.
"Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).
We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22)."
by Dallin Oaks, source – http://lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/have-yo…
btw, Mantis, how has your "denying yourself of all ungodliness" going?
"5. He is not from everlasting to everlasting, but was created a finite time ago by his father god, who in turn was also created by his own father god, who in turn was created by his own father god, so on and so forth.
(This presumes that God the Father has no other creations besides the one narrated for us in Genesis. Mormon belief does NOT presume this. Furthermore, this fails to acknowledge the Father as part of eternal society that is not bound by or limited to the workings of this Creation. In Mormon belief, the Father is the one God of our Creation, but we know that the reality of "God" goes far beyond the mere reality manifest in this Creation in which we participate & in only the minutest sense observe.)"
You didn´t answer his argument at all, you rather reinforced his point – your Jesus was God´s firstborn, therefore there was no other creating of any other spiritual child before him. That means that your jesus was created a finite time ago just like elohim himself. Today you´re doing a great job of contradicting your own theology at every opportunity! Great representative of the "true gospel" you are…
"6. He is not the greatest being possible.
(Seeings I believe that he is, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know one thing for certain: Whether God the Father is the being described by Joseph Smith, or the being described in the Nicene creed, either way you, as a mortal, are not qualified to make this statement."
Boloney! He can say that God is THE greatest being in the Universe because God has revealed it to us through the Prophets in the Scriptures. Contrary to you we have a reliable guide for us to know the true nature of God!
"8. His blood is not powerful enough to wipe away any sin.
(Again, boloney. Not even sure where this claim comes from other than that Mormons, unlike Evangelicals, do not believe that acceptance of Christ as Savior in & of itself does anything more than assure our resurrection from the grave (a pretty amazing feat, if you ask me), & our restoration to the holy presence of the Father for a Final Judgment. However, last I checked, unlike Classical Christians, Mormons believe that once in God's presence in Judgment, Christ's blood is indeed "powerful enough" to make us wholly & essentially like Jesus Christ & God the Father. The ultimate seal of the Father's love to his faithful children.) "
Boloney! See, if you consider, once again since you seem to have forgotten your own law of eternal progression, there are eternal laws which your jesus can do nothing about, and that´s how your scriptures and leaders interpret the denying the Holy Ghost sin. Again, you seem to selectively forget your own doctrines, taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith in the book Doctrines of Salvation which teaches the doctrine of blood atonement that teaches that Jesus´ blood isn´t good enough for certain sins, you have to shed your own blood to atone for them.
"10. He must submit to a moral law that existed before he did.
(Again, finally we agree on Mormon belief.)"
Do you realize that by saying that you´re actually saying that you´re not worshiping almighty God? How can you worship almighty God when your god isn´t almighty at all! He didn´t even come up with the rules – the rules were there before himself, when he was just a bunch of matter floating around in the dark corners of the universe! And those rules can´t be generated by nature, because nature is impersonal and it does not know good or evil, therefore they must have been determined by a higher being yet.
You have no idea what you´re actually worshiping…
Mantis, who came first, god or men? Hint: god is a man who has been exalted through the keeping of the eternal laws.
"11. You can one day become just like him.
(And so can you, friend of Aaron. After all, that is what Christ came to earth for.)"
No, what Christ came to earth for was to redeem us from sin and to take upon Himself the just wrath of God because of the fall of our first parents which turned us all into sinners by nature. That´s the truth, Mantis, i know your ego can´t allow you to not believe that you´ll one day become a "god", and will receive glory for your righteousness and faithfulness to the eternal laws of the gospel administered to you by elohim and your bridge to godhood, jesus, but i pray for you that God will grant you the same Grace He has granted me, to open your eyes to the error of your ways so that you can worship the true and living God.
Yea, our Mormon poster has his presentation just chocked full of Biblical and historical references that supports his blasphemy as being original Christianity and rooted in Jewish belief.
Would our Mormon poster find us any historical documents that support that the Church Fathers or even the heretics taught this nonsense?
So where do Mormons get this garbage? Well the only thing I can imagine is that Joseph Smith got it the same place he got the BoM; out of a magic rock that he put in his hat.
I repeat; the more absurd, convoluted and revolting an idea, the more the cultist embraces it. To them, it takes a higher level of spiritual thought and maturity to accept what is blasphemy. They revel in their ignorance supposing they are enlightened.
Is it any wonder that they have to hide these things from those they try to lure into the cult?
So where do Mormons get this stuff? No matter how they shake, massage and torture them, they can't find their apostate teachings in the Bible; neither the OT or NT. What happens is that they have this function called "progressive revelation". This is how it works. A guy billing himself as a prophet gets an idea. The idea makes him feel good. The good feeling is said to be a witness or confirmation or word from the Lord. Now it doesn't matter if it doesn't line-up with orthodox teaching or even heretical teachings that have come before. In fact it's better (to them) if it doesn't. Because being new and way off the bubble makes it viable and all the more truthful. There's a ready market for the new teaching because the audience that embraces it is preset to receive any form of utterance because they practice not a smidgen of spiritual discernment. They have been taught that the more difficult a concept is to accept the stronger their faith must be. To not accept it is to not have superior faith. So bingo, they go for it so that they can be the first one on their religious block to drive the new model revelation.
To say that these people are fools would be an understatement. They have been engulfed in a darkness as deep and black as any black hole in outer space……….there's a lot of this out by Kolob!
Clyde, that´s not the point.
Mutu is accusing the author of the post of being deliberately disrespectful for saying that their god does not transcend the material as if he was making that up. Actually what he says is based on LDS scriptures´ description of god as i demonstrated above. The very fact that you say "God dwells in us through the Holy Ghost." also proves that your god is bound by the physical world, if he wasn´t then he would be able to dwell in us without the help of the Holy Ghost, no problem.
F melo,
Its not a troll, what you said suggested that the Mormon Jesus is a rename of 'Baal' from the OT. Why do you think I have never read that before. I knew of 'Baal" from sunday school. But why not look up info about it in current time?
Yea, we get old mantus waxing eloquent on all of this deep, spiritually and intellectually challenging Mormon thought regarding such wondrous matters that only those in the gifted and talented group can really grasp. And I'm sitting here thinking, "……and it's all because Joseph Smith, the occultist, told these folks it's true." Now how smart is it to accept the word of a guy who worked his magic by use of a special rock?
Well why do people flock to alternative medicine thinking that it holds the cure for their aliments? Part of it has to do with the fact that it goes against conventional wisdom and thought.
Walter Martin commented by saying something like; "Mormons are able to think rationally about all areas of their life with the exception of their religion."
So we might ask ourselves, "Why in the world do Mormons believe Joseph Smith?" That's really the basic question. What we're dealing with here isn't something as simple as a "leap of faith". The veracity of Joseph Smith is easy to question on several different levels. There are the shifting and changing of not only his claims and doctrine, but there's also the testimony of his neighbors who knew him all too well as the youth running about the countryside at night with his magic rock claiming he could see buried treasure deep inside the earth.
There is also zero Scriptural basis for Smith's claims.
Let's contrast that with something we read in the Bible. In Luke chapter 24 we have the account of Jesus' encounter with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection. Now all Jesus had to do was say to them, "Hay it's me." That would be enough direct proof of who he is. But Jesus prevents the two disciples from recognizing Him and the account reads: "And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures." Here we have the resurrected Christ, God incarnate, taking the disciples to the Word to provide scriptural proof of who He is. Latter in the chapter, starting at verse 44 Jesus says: "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." And "Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day…..'
Jesus stands before His disciples, risen from the dead, and He goes to the Scriptures to provide a foundation for His claims.
There's a real problem when people report that they have had a vision or revelation and they have no Scriptural support for their claims. It's basically their word. So Smith's claims can't be supported by Scripture nor can they be supported on the basis of his personal integrity. Why would people reject Jesus for a false Christ based on the word of a known occultist, adulterer and one who saw fit to change the Bible to suit his own whims?
The choice is clear; Jesus or Joseph.
At least the heretics, in their heresy, could make some vain attempt to interpret Scripture in such a way as to support their heresy. Unable to do this, Mormons just merely proclaim the Bible as being corrupted. With one swoop of their demonically inspired hand, Mormons thus declare the Bible null and void. Of course this is based on the Mormon fictitious dual notions that after the apostles died the "real" gospel disappeared and that the Bible, having been copied so many times, lost its original meaning. And for good measure Mormons pull out the Joker from their aberrant and misinformed deck of cards and throw over-board the work that was done by the Church Fathers at Nicea. Because it was there that the hammer came down on the heretics with their false notions of who Jesus is.
In dealing with the heretics, the Church Fathers would get frustrated by the way they (heretics) would twist and distort the Scriptures. So the Church Fathers would appeal to the Scriptures and also the traditions of the Church. The traditions included who the apostles and the disciples they taught said about who Jesus is. As an example of this we can turn to Acts chapter 20 verse 4. In writing about the followers of Paul, Luke writes: "And he was accompanied by Sopater of Berea, the son of Pyrrhus; and by Aristarchus and Secundus of the Thessalonians; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and Tychicus and Trophimus of Asia." In his letter to the Romans the 16th and final chapter, Paul identifies a who's who of followers including Prisca and Aquila who he identifies as "my fellow workers in Christ Jesus". About them he also says; "….who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia."
All of those named, and there are quite a few, heard the gospel of Jesus Christ as it was revealed to Paul directly from Jesus and confirmed as correct by the apostles in Jerusalem. Paul tells them; "Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good, and innocent in what is evil. And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."
There is a suitable benediction; "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen."
There is no mistaking that Paul guarded closely the gospel of Jesus Christ as it had been revealed to him by Our Lord. The Holy Spirit safe guarded the gospel and preserved it complete. Heretics of all generations have tried to draw people away from the truth of the gospel through false christs, false prophets and false apostles. The Word of God has prevailed and the knowledge of who Jesus is and what He accomplished at the cross has been preserved not only in the Scriptures but also in the history and tradition of the Church; which is the Mystical Body of Christ.
Mormons, being tempted, have taken a bite of the apple of false knowledge and in doing so have rejected Jesus.
F Melo,
From an LDS perspective nothing is made up, its based on what J.S. experienced. What came out of his experience I must admit is a radical departure from most Christian and jewish thoughts about god. I was reading about the theology of the O.T. and based on that one could eliminate LDS theology on a number of accounts. However, one could possibly also eliminate christian theology. How one could eliminate the LDS faith without eliminating the christian faith also is a question.
The idea of god becoming a human being is probably the most difficult point. Is that particularly stated in the O.T.? God is not supposed to be like any thing existing in the world. The N.T. places the O.T. in a particular context, and without it, you might get a different result. Just like LDS scripture places all previous works on a particular context and understanding. Reading the story made me think that would be strange if all future christians were LDS, and future historians refered to the period between 1830 and 2011 as the 'LDS period' of Christianity. Nobody else except LDS and break aways are writing anything and claiming its scripture.
You seem to be close minded. If it has been preserved we should all be catholics.
I am assuming that you would allow the secular government to determine the truth about the concept of God. I believe that it was the Emperor Constantine called the church to the council of Nicea to determine Jesus' status.
"However, one could possibly also eliminate christian theology. How one could eliminate the LDS faith without eliminating the christian faith also is a question. "
It´s not a question at all. Christianity doesn´t stand on the same grounds as mormonism. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is found all the way the through the Old Testament, in every facet of it, although, as Paul puts it, it´s not as plain as it was made with the coming of Jesus Himself.
The LDS faith is just a mixture of Old Testament and New Testament concepts plus a lot of Joseph Smith´s interpretation and new "revelations", and it has a weak theological foundation that keeps changing arbitrarily.
"The N.T. places the O.T. in a particular context, and without it, you might get a different result."
The result is the Judaism of Jesus´ day and the how it has somewhat evolved until these days… it didn´t develop into something so crazy like mormon theology at all.
"Just like LDS scripture places all previous works on a particular context and understanding."
Right… and to do that they have to edit out a lot of passages of scripture and their context.