Soon after graduating from high school, Stephanie realized she wanted to join the Mormon Church. But she was reluctant to tell her parents. In an article for Mormon Times Stephanie wrote,
“While my father and mother are wonderful people, they did not have an understanding of the gospel at the time. Both agnostic themselves, it wasn’t religion in general that they were worried about. It was our [Mormon] religion and the many stereotypes associated with it that caused concern. I faced a challenge: How do I explain to them why I want to get baptized?”
While away at college, Stephanie took the advice of her branch president back home and wrote her parents a letter that conveyed “all of [her] feelings without interruption.” Her hope was that their hearts would be softened.
The letter had its desired effect and Stephanie was baptized into the Mormon Church with the support of her parents in December 2009. She included the full text of her letter in the Mormon Times article, prefaced with her goal regarding her readers, whether members or investigators: “Hopefully my letter will in some way strengthen your testimony.”
Stephanie’s letter is long (over 1400 words) and unmistakably heartfelt. She tells her parents, “I love the church and the profound effect it has had on my life.” I encourage you to read Stephanie’s entire letter, but I will summarize here. The main points influencing Stephanie’s desire to join the Mormon Church were these:
- Conservative morals
- Positive peer pressure
- Belonging to a community of kindhearted and open people
- Hearing members’ testimonies on Fast Sundays (and sharing her own)
- Being welcomed rather than judged
- Being challenged to become humble and become a better person
- The promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost at baptism, which would provide guidance
- Being allowed (as a member) to give talks, serve on committees, pay tithing, and participate in missionary work
Stephanie gave her parents many reasons that explained her decision to be baptized in the Mormon Church, and they offered her love and support in return. Stephanie probably understood what types of things would resonate positively with her agnostic parents and wrote her letter accordingly. Even so, I am struck by both the focus of the letter, and what’s missing from it.
In seeking to accomplish her goals (i.e., explain why she wanted to get baptized, convey all of her feelings, and soften the hearts of her parents) Stephanie testified eloquently of the Church – its people, its programs, and its positive influence on behavior; but she did not testify of Christ.
I don’t mean to be pedantic, but I think it is illustrative that Stephanie’s letter mentioned the Mormon Church 26 times while bringing up the name of Jesus only twice (once in the full name of the Church, and once in identifying the members of the Mormon godhead). Stephanie’s own testimony (and the testimony of the others which she hopes her letter will strengthen) is all about the Church and what it can do for members. She doesn’t talk about her love for God or her desire to worship and serve Him. She doesn’t talk about what Jesus, as Savior, has done for her, or what it means to be loved by Him. Instead, Stephanie testifies,
“I love the church…”
“I love the church…”
“It’s my love for the church…”
It sounds to me like Stephanie (and other Mormons) would have no problem affirming LDS apostle Marion G. Romney’s 1961 General Conference proclamation that “This Church…is the way, the truth, and the life” (Conference Report, April 1961, 119. Also quoted in Book of Mormon Student Manual Religion 121 and 122, 1989, 26).
I wonder if they even know that Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Him (John 14:6).
Whenever I have attended services on fast and testimony Sunday, I always get out a pen and a sheet of paper. I keep track of the Mormons testimonies and in what they give their testimony. Common things include, the Church, Joseph Smith, their family, the current prophet, the Book of Mormon and Jesus. Every time someone bears testimony in something, I give it a mark.
I do not keep track of mere mentions of the terms, only if the Mormon bear testimony in that particular thing. For example, "I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ" doesn't count. The interesting thing about this exercise is that Smith and the Church itself usually come out on top. Jesus always loses. In fact, He is usually in last place.
Great post Sharon! I think if her parents would have asked her one question (Where is Christ in any of this) she may have stopped and really thought about it. It sounds to me like she just wanted to be included in something. Mormonism provides a great community experience. It is hard to leave that.
Gee JESUS would JESUS it JESUS have JESUS helped JESUS if JESUS it JESUS was JESUS said JESUS this JESUS way? To me there is an equality when talking of the church and Jesus. If Jesus is the focus of your intentions then He should be at center of the church. Of course if you go to a mosque the equality is different.
I'm a very strong Christian, but I don't go to church regularly. I believe that you can still have faith, be a believer but not have to be a part of something for it to "matter" or "count". Some people are also very big part of their church community but their faith is lacking, or non-existent. I think it's great to have a strong community and church, but it's not the same as believe in Jesus.
Jesus saves us, saved us and Shed His Blood for us. JS tried jumping out a jail window, Shoot some people, Lied, stole women from their husbands, said blacks were inferior. Gee, Whats awesome about JS that I want some of that? He sounds like one of the People Jesus mention, when He said , you speak your fathers language, and your father is the Devil.
Dear Sharon,
What an interesting article. It looks like Stephanie was aware there was a void in her heart. She has found a community of people she admires, and enjoys being around.
They have conservative morals. They have an influence her, which she likens to positive pressure (interesting word choice). They sometimes tell her what they believe in. They challenge her to try to be better. She can participate in various ways in the community.
And she describes how she felt welcomed by its members, rather than judged. (Perhaps the most interesting aspect to me.)
As with you, I found what was excluded in Stephanie's story more interesting than what was included. For instance:
1. Where is God? His love. His blessings. Blessings which last forever?
2. Where is sin? We hear the word "judged," which suggests its presence, but that's about it.
3. Where is salvation from judgment? Is it in finding a community that will not judge?
4. Where is life's purpose? To glorify God. Is it instead feeling challenged to try to be better? And so feel sin less?
In many ways it seems Stephanie's new community of friends has improved the quality of her life and feelings. But is this community god? Is it replacing God in her life?
clyde,
"To me there is an equality when talking of the church and Jesus."
This is blasphemy. The LDS church and Jesus are NOT one and the same. There is no "equality" between the two. Jesus said HE is the way the truth and the life. Yes one of your leaders said that the LDS church is the way the truth and the life, but that does not make it true. The LDS church prides itself in standing between people and the true and living Christ. Of course you have to actually know who the true and living Christ is and believe me, he's not your spirit brother. Please do a little more research.
Keith,
This reminds me of a talk that Thomas Monson's daughter gave a few years ago. She made an analogy about how sometimes life is like falling off of a bridge (or something similar) and then went on to list things that we can use as a parachute. She listed the LDS church, BoM, the prophet, the D&C, priesthood blessings, yada, yada, yada. Not ONCE did she mention Christ. I like how Shawn McCraney puts it. He says that in Mormonism Christ is a just little janitor that only comes out to clean up "after all that you can do" It's true.
I don't get it Clyde. Is that a mocking tone I sense?
The Mormon church is a religious organization; a false one at that.
When Christians give a testimony it's all about Jesus and what he has done for them through the shed blood of the Cross.
Mormons, as I see it, are in love with the Mormon church. It's the Mormon church that provides a Mormon, they believe, with entrance to the Celestial Kingdom with Joseph Smith's blessing, and on to becoming a god.
In the Mormon testimony, Jesus comes in fifth place. They testify to the BoM, Joseph Smith, the Mormon church, the current prophet and BTW as sort of a caboose, Jesus.
Jesus in Mormonism is simply a valiant older brother. The offspring of the Mormon god and one of his many wives. I can see why Mormons don't get too excited by the Mormon Jesus. After all the Mormon god and one of his wives birthed the Mormon Jesus just like they birthed the Mormon.
Here's my testimony, short version. I was spiritually lost, dead in my sins, without hope. Through a series of miraculous circumstances God, through His Holy Spirit, led me to Jesus. Here's the deal, a church has nothing to do with my salvation or walk with Christ or the hope of eternal life I posses. My faith is 100% in Jesus and what He did for me. Whether I never give a penny to a religious organization or attend their rituals or serve their callings; it will never change my status before God based on my faith in Jesus Christ. His shed blood satisfied once and for all the sin debt owed by me. I love Jesus……..period……end of story.
Stephanie's narrative dovetails quite nicely with the church-as-a-social-structure phenomenon. It appears that's what she was seeking, and that's what she found in mormonism. A social club. Converts sometimes get the bonus of getting extra attention, to boot.
Clyde,
Does the name Jesus make you squirm? Is there too much Jesus-talk in Christianity for you to bear? Is there too much of giving Jesus credit for our redeemed lives for you to admit, lest it take away from what you perceive to be your power to overcome sin and save yourself through your works? Sharon is correct to point out that Stephanie's story has nothing to do with Jesus. The Church is not Jesus, Clyde. I pray you come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, who has the power to save you from your sins if you but believe in Him. The LDS Church is not a substitute for the living Messiah.
Peace…
Because Clyde, in Christianity it matters not what CHURCH you are baptised into, it matters that you are baptised in Christ. LDS are all about the CHURCH not Jesus. I never hear of an LDS convert wanting to know more about Jesus, they want to know more about the CHURCH. When I was saved I learned all about Jesus and what He did for me. The church was secondary.
robsmom
Concerning the main points that influenced Stephanie desire to join the Mormon Church, I have to
ask the question: I have the Word of God which reveals how I should live, I have the Holy Spirit to
assist me in understanding the Word, I have a great Church family which is a blessing to belong to ,
SO WHY DO I NEED THE MORMON CHURCH ?
May Stephanie come to realize that to receive eternal life is available thru a person , not an organization.
Jn.14:6, Heb.7:25
ww
The role of the Church is to point us to Jesus Christ death on the cross for our sins, just as the Apostle Paul wrote that he focused exclusively on Christ crucified for our sins. The Church is that invisible fellowship of believers worldwide united in that simple faith in Jesus. Also, I believe their is definitely a role for the local Church fellowship to which a Christian belongs. Once again the role of the local Church is to point sinners, both believer and non-believers, to the forgiveness of sins found in Jesus death and resurrection. Sure – other good things flow from that, but without that focus on Jesus, without Him at the center? Well without Jesus at the Center – his death for our sins as the sole focus, it's worthless, and eventually it will drain you, it will become a burden, it's lifelessness will drive you to despair. When those who partcipate in Christless religion realize their self-improvement scheme isn't working, and they're still hearing the motivational seminars at "church," that's when the despair sets in. Followed by unbelief and rejection of this empty religion.
The Church is to turn us to Jesus in His Word, in Communion, in our Baptism. Communion shows us Jesus death on the cross for our sins. In Baptism we are united with Christ in his death and resurrection. The Chruch is Jesus' people. God's Spirit is present in these things showing us Jesus death for our sins, his free forgiveness freely offered, and calling us to come rest in Him. If Jesus is not the focus – if you are invovled in a self-improvement religion, eventually you will realize this scheme is not working (and here's a secret I found out, it's not working for anyone else there either!). Turn to Jesus and find forgiveness and rest. I do rely on my Church to turn me to Jesus, to show me Jesus – I need my Church because I am a sinner and I would definitely drift from Christ is I was doing it on my own. The Church is where I hear about Jesus for a desperate sinner like myself.
Kate
Blasphemy would be if I went to a mosque and denounced Mohammad as Prophet. I equate blasphemy with that great christian Torquemada. The nice guy who would question heretics and then burn them at the stake.
Who said when two or more are gathered in my name, and where was it said? That is where I get the equality at.
If Stephanie is looking for an organization that stresses good morals then she has found a good
place. But this group she's joined is also led by a man who claims to be God's mouthpiece, the
one who can reveal God's mind and will to her respecting vital truths concerning God's true nature
and how eternal life is received. Does she understand that the scriptures warn of false prophets,
men who can teach of living a good moral lifestyle advocated by Jesus Christ , yet be inaccurate on
revealing who God is or how a person can receive eternal life ? Does she understand this?
A popular Mormon Apostle even knows what the stakes are : " False prophets lead people astray, men
choose, at the peril of their salvation, the prophets they follow." May Stephanie find the time to put
the Mormon prophet to the test — Gal.1:8-9 ; 1jn.4:1
Falcon
Yes it was a mocking tone and I have put myself in deep kimchee-I think thats the word for rotten cabbage. I am bothered when Jesus is used as a mantra and repeated constantly. I am also bothered by my mocking because it turns people off of the ideas I am trying to convey.
About your testimony. There must have been some personal interaction between you and someone else who helped guide you or nudged you in the right direction. Whoever it was might have belonged to a church where ideas were bounced off of others and He noticed you at the right time and place and helped set you in the right direction. I might be making too many assumption but a church might be responsible for what you are doing now and can help people who are weak in their walk with Christ.
I noted that Stephanie's parents were both agnostic. I know so many families in which parents make claims such as, "We're going to wait until our children are old enough to make their own decision about what to believe. Or, we don't want to influence them to believe a certain way." One can pity, but at least see the reason why someone who believes in nothing, really, would behave so irresponsibly. What makes me especially sad is 'Christian' parents who take so little time to explain the amazing and matchless love of Jesus to their children and the truth and wisdom of the Bible, God's Word. How many parents sort of float along thinking that their children will learn what they need to learn in church, or in a Christian school, or through osmosis, maybe? Children are truly a gift from God, and our greatest responsibility toward them is to be both a living and a verbal witness of the love of God, the saving power of Jesus, and the keeping power of the Holy Spirit.
The Mormon church is full of these little mottos that the faithful repeat like nursery rhymes. Here's one: "The church is perfect but the people aren't." I guess the point and purpose of this little ditty is to reinforce in the mind of the faithful Mormon that the organization holds the key to them becoming gods. It also excuses the organization, that is led by and peopled by flawed individuals, from their hypocrisy, lies and heavy handed control. What flawed logic, this idea that the organization is perfect while the people aren't. This keeps the questioning Mormon's questions at bay and inflicts further guilt if the organization is questioned.
So what happens when a person has dedicated their lives to this "perfect" organization and they find out that the perfect organization has not been telling the truth and hidden vital information from them? Mormons like to charge that all of the people in the Bible weren't perfect. Yes, we point out, but the Bible exposes their sins and imperfections. It doesn't hide, gloss over or excuse their behavior.
There's only one who was perfect, and that is Jesus Christ. That's why faith in Him and not some organization is central.
OK so I know that there are denominations that seem to care more about their fall bazaar, the Swedish meatball supper and the congregation wide garage sale then prayer, Bible study and the saving of souls. Traditions that people cling to and give their lives meaning and keep them busy are all pretty foolish in the scheme of things. But few of these folks would get up and testify to anything as vain as a church function or activity.
Some months ago Andy Watson went to a Mormon function, the purpose of which was to promote the local Mormon church/ward. The rather large room was set up with all of these stations promoting some aspect of the ward's program. Not one thing regarding the beliefs of the church. Andy caused quite a stir in the place as he went from station to station drawing the people out on the basic beliefs of the church. They sent the missionaries at him and he pretty much turned them inside out and then they ran to get the Bishop. The point of course was that the Mormons were not real interested in being questioned about the finer points of their religion. They were most interested in talking about Scouting and the Womens' Relief Society. They were doing their best to keep the religion hidden behind a wall of social groups.
Growing up Catholic, we were taught that the Catholic church was the one true church. If you left it you'd go to hell. In the Catholic faith of my youth it seemed to me that in some ways it was very hard to avoid hell. The Catholic church held the "keys" since Jesus gave them to Peter and he was kind of the official first Pope, so it was said. People of other faiths could go to heaven but like I said, Catholic drop-outs were in major trouble. We were also taught that you couldn't know the destiny of your eternal soul until you died and stood before Jesus. In-the-end, you'd be going to purgatory to burn off the residual effects of your sin, even those you confessed to the priest when you went into the secret box aka. the confessional. The time you spent in purgatory could be shortened if someone had a "Mass" said on your behalf. A "low" mass was $5 and a "high" mass cost $10.
So in some ways I can relate to these Mormons with their "one true church" claim and all that comes with it and a highly legalized system designed to keep the faithful in line. Fear was able to hold me in check until I was twenty years old but once I lost that I was out the door and never returned.
I know it's because of my early religious training and experiences that I've become a Jesus man and have eschewed organized religion to a large degree. I know there are many who enjoy church life and derive a lot of benefit from membership in a religious group. Unfortunately I've found that often times it becomes a hindrance, sad to say. I'm aware of that saying that if I ever did find the perfect church I couldn't join it because it wouldn't be perfect any more.
I guess what I'm saying is that first and fore most we should put our faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. My motto has been "Lord beyond the cross, anything you do for me is a bonus".
falcon,
It's strange because not all Mormons know about the becoming gods thing. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't until I was well into my thirties. I had a friend who was newly active in the LDS church and she called me really upset because in Sunday school the guy giving the lesson said that he couldn't wait to die so he could become a god and ruler of his own world. I admitted to her that I had never heard that. I looked in my Mormon doctrine book by Bruce R. Mckonkie and sure enough there it was. I was floored and she was really freaked out because she was raised as a born again Christian. Although this guy was commenting on it in her ward (she lives in a different city than me) it had never been mentioned in any ward that I was ever in. I questioned my Aunt about this and she told me not to worry about it at all because not all faithful Mormon men will get to be gods, it's only for the elite like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. As I researched this, I found that what she has been taught about it is not accurate. All Mormon doctrines concerning this becoming gods, is for all faithful Mormon men. At least that is how I see it. It makes me angry that it is whitewashed, denied, or glossed over by the LDS organization. They should be screaming it from the pulpit. If it's the ultimate goal of a faithful Mormon man, why hide it?
clyde,
Forgive me but you said that you equate the LDS church with Jesus. To me this is blasphemy because I know what the LDS church means to a Mormon. It's their Salvation. True Salvation comes from Christ alone. Mormonism means not being able to pass into Salvation without the consent of Joseph Smith. Who said that "no one comes to the father but by me." You aren't fooling me. Your own prophet said that the LDS church is the "way, the truth and the life" but who really said that clyde??? Mormonism takes Jesus out of the equation and puts itself there. Therefore it is BLASPHEMY to denounce Jesus in favor of Mormonism!
Kate
We have a misunderstanding here. I said" To me there is an equality when talking of the church and Jesus. If Jesus is the focus of your intentions then He should be at center of the church." when I said that I meant any church not just mine. When you say it is blasphemous it shocks me because churches are needed to help the weak as well as the strong in strengthening themselves in staying on the straight and narrow.
Jesus said, "I am the truth and the way and the light, no one gets to the Father except through me." Mormonism has flipped what Jesus said and made itself "the truth, the way and the light." Now Mormons want to say that when they are talking about the Mormon church they are talking about Jesus. What a con job that is! Mormonism has these people thinking that they are serving God by serving the Mormon church. What a pity!
What if a woman was an excellent house keeper. She'd clean, dust, scrub, vacuum and spend hours decorating the house to perfection. But her husband got scant attention from her. When he complained about their lack of connection and intimacy she could tell him, "Why do you think I spend all this time on the house? It's for you!" The problem is the husband wasn't all that interested in trading the woman's affections for a super well ordered house.
Mormons do that with Jesus. They do all their razamataze down at the temple and serve like crazy down at the wards and mistakenly think that's what God is after. Well maybe the Mormon god is into all that but the God of the Bible is not. Remember the story of Martha and Mary and how busy, busy, busy Martha was and how Mary just sat at the feet of Jesus listening to Him, absorbing His words? Mary chose the better way. She chose Jesus. Mormons need to do the same.
clyde,
Please go back and read the comments of falcon, Nicole and robsmom55. We don't need a "church" to help us stay on the straight path to Jesus. We need Jesus. Period. Yes some people need a church to tell them what to do and how to do it. Do I love going to my Christian church and worshiping only Jesus, yes, but I find Jesus through the Bible not through my church. The problem with the LDS church is they want to control your every move and keep that tithing rolling in. How do they do that? By threatening your Salvation and taking Jesus out of the equation. Another problem with the LDS church is that though they may have Jesus Christ in their name, Jesus is not in the building. Your comment about not wanting to use his name so much is so familiar to me. I was told that all my life. Why not profess his name a lot? I was sure taught to profess the name of the LDS church a lot! This is what irks me about Mormons and their church the most. The way Jesus is diminished. I went 40 years not knowing who Jesus really is. So to me when you say that the LDS church shares equality with Jesus, I feel that is blasphemous. You can think that people need to come unto a church to find Jesus, but I think you need to come unto Jesus to find Jesus.
Dear Kate,
That's an insightful account you've shared.
Sometimes, Christians will say that the LDS people, such as its missionaries, are not candid about what Mormonism teaches. In your story, it looks like they find it difficult to be candid with themselves.
It is almost as if an unvarnished presentation of some pretty core doctrines is just too much. Like being forced to stand in front of a mirror, and being unable to look at oneself as one is; at the worldview promoted by the LDS religion's early leaders. And some of today's LDS people are forced to look away.
Perhaps there is reason for encouragement in your story.
Thanks for sharing your story, falcon. In reading your posts, it seems clear to me you have a great love for God's word, and have become a mature Christian.
"Fear was able to hold me in check."
Recently, I received a bookmark listing some prayer points for Arab immigrants to America. One of the prayer points asked that these immigrants might come to have a relationship with God based "not upon fear and works, but upon love and grace." It struck me that this would be a good prayer for Utah, too.
Kate,
This absolutely blows my mind! How in the world could a religion that has as its main doctrine men becoming gods, not teach it? I don't get it. It gets at the basics of the nature of God. Do Mormons not teach that their god was once a man? They must not have clued you in on that little detail either. This is so dishonest. Yea I know what the Mormons say. In essence it's that only the super duper hyper spiritually mature people can accept this. Only the foolish and slow of heart accept something as blasphemous as this. Let me repeat something I've said often. The more convoluted and revolting an idea, the more cultists embrace it.
In his first letter to the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul makes a couple of very important points that have a direct relation to what we are discussing here. First of all in the second chapter second verse he says, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." Paul's entire focus, his gospel was that of Jesus and the redemption we realize through faith in His completed work on the cross. Mormons testify to a created religious system in which they make Jesus apart of in a sort of BTW manner. Their entire witness and testimony is not of Jesus but of the BoM and Joseph Smith the creator of the Mormon system.
In chapter three verse eleven Paul states further, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." Mormonism is about a system that Joseph Smith created where by man can develop himself into a god, a god they think, just like Jesus. Because in the Mormon system, Jesus is just one of many gods that inhabit the heavens. Jesus does get some kudos for His valiant work and achievement but in the end He is just one of many in the Mormon pantheon of gods.
Jesus is the focus of the Christian witness because He is God incarnate; thee God, not one of many. The whole point of God's call of Abraham was to separate out a people for Himself. The pagan gods, who were no gods at all in reality, drew people away from the One, the Only, Sovereign God of the universe. There is no other.
Mormons are following a guy, in Joseph Smith, who drew on the same occultic powers that the ancient followers of Baal worshiped. It's clear that Joseph Smith was influenced by the religious innovators of his time who sought to created their own religious orders. Smith did this and in the process led many to their spiritual destruction.
You make a good point, Aaron, regarding "church-as-a-social-structure phenomenon." I read a book (title and author have escaped my mind at the moment, which is becoming normal for me) that commented that Christianity has become a religion of theology as opposed to a "way of life." Mormonism offers a way of life that is very rhythmic and appealing to those seeking "something" to give them a sense of belonging. Established church practices such as Family Home Evening, home teaching, visiting teaching, etc. all work to create a milieu that gives the sense of a well-organized and structured organization committed to taking care of people. Add in their welfare program, which is a truly amazing thing that I experienced when my dad got into a very serious motorcycle accident when I was a boy, and you get a sense that the Church is filling every need one could possibly imagine. Throw in a smattering of synchretism, and it's not so difficult to see how one can get hooked into thinking they have found what they're looking for in the Mormon Church. Additionally, Mormons are generally very nice and sweet people who will do what they can to help an investigator feel welcomed and a part of a family. The way Mormons divide their wards and then enforce the law that you have to attend the ward in which you live actually provides for a stable community of believers. It's a very enticing appeal to "feelings."
Blessings…
falcon, you rightly mentioned that Mormonism is a man created system. This is a good description
of the Mormon gospel which is such a elaborate system of steps , rules etc. But worst of all is
who Mormon prophets have revealed their Jesus to be. Ex-LDS Arthur Sido states, " The Jesus
of Mormonism can only help you save yourself because He is insufficient and inadequate to do
any more that that. A Jesus that is like you in nature, even if He is older and wiser, is hardly
going to be able to save to the uttermost. He is more of a big brother helping us out because He
has been there and done that. He is different from us in age and in experience but little else. "
It's sad to see Mormons reduce Jesus to a glorified "way-shower" , rather than THE way .
All of you people are doing exactly what you are saying the mormons do. You stop short of telling ALL of the true facts. You quote Mormon fact after fact never ever telling the whole content of the given sentence or doctrine. I for one have gone to the Mormon web page and found all of their doctrine to focus on Jesus Christ in every way shape and form. Using the words "THE CHURCH" to describe their religion refers to JESUS CHRIST AND GOD IN EVERY THING THEY PREACH/TEACH, SAY AND DO IN THIER EVERYDAY LIVES AND ON SUNDAYS. "The Church" encompasses everything, because God and Christ is everything to them.
Yes they talk about Joseph Smith only in a content that their belief is that a living prophet has been returned to the world to proclaim truth and to help people prepare for the second coming of Christ, which I believe is going to happen whether you believe one doctrine over another. I for one hope I find out prophets have returned because the world needs it so badly. Too many anti-christ in persons and teachings have penetrated the world. (bible teaching) It is said that Joseph Smith went to God to see which one was the most right one to join. So many different ways of religion being taught. He was confused. (I understand this feeling). He learned in church to go ask for answers from God because he believed so many things taught to him in church, like stories about prophets and apostles. I bet his money paid preacher regrets ever telling him this truth He says he was told none of them was Gods true church. Not that the religions all lied, but none was the whole truth. Joe said he was told by God and Jesus that it is time for the truth to come back to his children, and to be patient and wait on God to do it. He then continued to go to the church of his family still. I bet he learned many more truths and lies to help prepare him for what he felt he needed to do for God.
Why is this so hard to believe might be true, prophets lived in the world once, only when they were taken from this earth, did the world begin to go down hill, read bible prophets stories, there are some real hum dinger stories in their lives. So if you think Joseph was a loser/lier, remember he was being raised in a community filled with "Christian Values" already, ones that most of you adhere to still this day. (Think about that last statement). How was that religious world working for everyone then, kind of like now- religious confusion perpetrated by hate and lies against each other, each seeking monetary gain for their religious advice??? Christ never made a penny teaching his message, why should man? This I agree, the Mormons have right. Gods message should be free to all. They share what they have for free, which is not the status of most. Do not respond with your they must pay tithing crap to practice their religion. Tithing was commanded by God since the beginning of time! Just giving back to God a little gratitude for your life!
I know Mormon people, and their life centers fully around Christ. You are fooling yourself to say otherwise. They do all they do because of that belief. They go to church, they help each other and others out, they talk of prophets and new revealed truths they believe to be true. Not believing in what one believes is truth does not make it a lie. If one wanted to belong to a organized religion this would be the one to join. It is the one that makes the most sense if you really have the intelligence to truly understand Christ message in the New testament. He was the way, the truth and the light, not the Jews, not the Pharisees, not the Nazarenes, not the Romans, or any other supposed religious preachers of Gods words His gospel- His teachings were the one and only truth! ONE TRUE CHURCH DIRECTED BY ONE TRUE SON OF GOD. Jesus Christ will reign over ONE TRUE CHURCH-HIS, under the direction of his father GOD(this truth found in the Bible) when he returns there will not be many, just ONE that he will reside over with apostles(this truth found in the Bible too) and I think the Mormons just might have a head start on these facts!
WW,
So how it works in the Mormon system is you go into the pipeline and come out the other end a god. The Mormon church provides the novitiate god candidate with the works that they are to perform in order to reach the pinnacle of Mormon success. Now the Mormons throw a little Jesus into the mix as one of the Mormon heroes along with Joseph Smith, but the dream quest is really the purview of the Mormon organization. A person cannot become a god without the Mormon pathway to enlightenment.
How do Mormons know that there are many gods, that the god they relate to was once a man and they too can become gods? Well it was revealed. How do Mormons know this revelation is true? Because it makes them feel good when they think about it and this positive emotion is the Mormon spirit's method of confirming (truth) to them. How do they know that good feelings are communication from the Mormon god? Because they believe it!
It sounds like our gal in the article above really grooves on the Mormon system. There are a lot of Mormons who come to the conclusion that the Mormon church is bogus but still believe "it does a lot of good". I'd dispute that fact because when you add up the harm that Mormonism does by keeping people in bondage to a hopeless system of vain works and not the least of it keeping folks away from the real risen Christ, I'd say the good isn't really good enough.
Lee, welcome. I can sense from your remarks that you're somewhat agitated by what you perceive
as attacks on the Mormon church, so I'll chalk up your inaccurate statements to that emotion. I hope
you can understand that I for one do not wish to perpetrate any falsehoods . Let me address a couple
of your assertions . The Mormon people do talk about jesus a lot, and they do feel they follow Him.
However if you listen closely to most Mormon you'll heard about the Church or the prophet, or the
priesthood. Jesus seems to get lost in all of this. You might also listen to the testimonies of those
who have left the Church and tell of their experiences concerning what Jesus now means to them .
The church describes their religion?. That could be the problem. You also don't understand about
prophets and the New Testament, nor why Christian ministers get a paid today . Mormon leaders
made out rather nicely being on the boards of large Mormon owned companies for a long time.
You also don't seem to realize when the world went "downhill" . The answer is in Gen 3 . Lastly,
I never called Joseph Smith a "liar or loser". He was a prophet who introduced inaccurate teachings
about God and salvation, hence a false prophet / teacher. Also if you feel that the Mormon Church's
message best examples Christ's in the N.T. then perhaps you can show me where Jesus taught
the important doctrines of Temple marriage and also abstaining from coffee , because I guess that
I'm not intelligent enough to find these requirements to please God . Can you help me out?
Lee,
I'd also like to welcome you to this forum and offer you an analysis done by Grant Palmer author of "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins". In an interview with John Dehlin on Mormon Stories (I believe it can be found at: http://mormonstories.org/?page_id=102) Mr. Palmer reports a survey he did of the yearly rotation of subject matter taught in Sunday classes within the Mormon wards. I don't have the ratio at my finger tips but other topics in Mormonism far out distanced anything that was taught about Jesus. Mr. Palmer was quite distressed about this.
I would ask you another question, who is this Jesus that you say Mormons center their lives on? It certainly isn't the Jesus of the Bible. The Mormon Jesus is the offspring of the Mormon God and one of his multiple wives. This Mormon Jesus didn't pay the price for sin on the cross. The Mormon Jesus did it in the Garden of Gethsemane clearly contradicting the Bible and God's plan of salvation . The Mormon Jesus is the spirit brother of the Mormon Satan.
One other thing about your claim "….if you really have the intelligence to truly understand Christ's message in the NT". It really doesn't take intelligence Lee. What it takes is the witness of the Holy Spirit which I have had confirmed to me in miraculous fashion. God the Father led me to faith in Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Having had the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ confirmed in me by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I have confidence in my eternal destiny.
Lee there is only One God, One Jesus, One Spirit and One Church. It will not be found in Mormonism.
I will pray for you.
Lee, a couple more thoughts for you to consider: You said of Mormons that you found , " all of their
doctrines to focus on Jesus christ in every way , shape, and form. " That 's quite a statement.
All their doctrines? Really? When you said that Jesus directs His " one true church", I think you
should have offered to share more on this since while it's true that Mormons do teach that Jesus
directs their church, the fact is that He does so through a prophet, a man who is said to relay His
messages to all other LDS . This prophet has promised that God will not allow him to teach false
and inaccurate doctrine. Lee, can you see a red flag here? Step back and check out 1Jn, 4:1; and
1Thess.5:21 along with Acts 20:30 , then test the Mormon prophet because there is more to honoring
Jesus than living a moral lifestyle. Did Jesus warn of false prophets? Think on this will you ?
Lee,
Your problem is that despite the fact that you have zeal, you lack knowledge or vision. The Bible tells us without that people perish. This is what's happening with the Mormon people. They have all kinds of enthusiasm but their knowledge of the Bible is totally distorted. First of all Mormons don't believe the Word of God as it is presented to us accurately reflects God's revelation. Secondly, in Mormonism the current prophet trumps all Scripture and even the former Mormon prophets. Quite frankly I've yet to find a Mormon who has any real idea of proper Biblical interpretation. With Mormons it's grab a verse here and grab a verse there put it in the mix master and pour out a concoction that will not only not nourish the soul but will amount to nothing more then spiritual junk food.
Mormons believe what they believe because they want to regardless of what God's Word reveals. At the end of the day Mormons paint themselves in a corner and either yell, "Your persecuting me" or "I bear my testimony".
Without a true sense of what God's Word reveals a person is lost;. depending on the utterances of flawed men who call themselves prophets but are not.
Hello Lee,
Well let me be my honest self here and start by saying, I bet you will not stick around and answer some honest questions, as that tends to be the way with Mormons who accuse us of misleading people.
With that said, you said we Christians are the ones who are wrong. Well Lee, If we are wrong and do not give all the facts as you suggest, I will ask you some questions. Question one. Name the person or persons who quoted mormon sources, but let out facts, Cut and paste the exact quote from the person(s) and give us the information that was left out proving to us all of the fraud we are accused of.
Let me go out on a limb here and say, You will not do it, and you will either ignore my question, or you will make excuses as to why you cannot. If for any reason you do not do as I ask, then please tell me why I anyone else should believe you when you say we are misleading people, but you cannot or will or prove it.
Question 2.
J.S Had Nine First vision accounts, spanning many years. If this is the case, what evidence do you use to support he is the prophet from God you claim he is, if he cannot get the first vision correct and needs in fact 9 first vision accounts.
Last question. (For Now)
J.S said, No man can see God and live with out the priesthood. So how could J.S see God in his so called First Vision and Live since he cleary did not have the priesthood at this time.
Lee, If you choose to ignore these question, then you will be showing your self as a fraud who just makes stuff up and from this point on no one will take yo serious. Their is a reason I have the nickname the HAMMER. I am the one guy who is not afraid to ask the hard questions and tell it like it is.
Rick,
I get a kick out of these TBMs who accuse us of fraud and misleading people. I think the first person they should look to for an example of real religious fraud is Joseph Smith and the Mormon church. The Mormon church uses pictures of Joseph Smith with the golden plates in front of him. He's hovering over the plates in the drawings "translating" the BoM from these golden plates. Now tell me that isn't outright fraud! We all know that he put his "magic rock" in a hat and shoving his face in the hat said he saw letters forming words. That was his actual "technique". BTW, this was also the rock that he claimed he could see into the ground with and find buried treasure. A feat that ran him afoul of the law because it was fraud.
I do feel sorry for these TBMs because they are basically flailing at the wind in a desperate attempt to maintain faith in something that is clearly fraudulent. Here's the problem for the TBMs. Their own source material, from the Mormon church, substantiates what we say. We don't have to make it up.
The problem, as I have pointed out many times for these TBMs, is that it isn't that we don't know and understand Mormonism, the problem for them is that we don't believe it. When the sole proof for something is that you feel good about it when you think about it and imagine that's God speaking to you, you're in major trouble.
Lee,
Jesus never used the word "church" while He was on the earth. Your focus is on "church." You might want to think about that.
Peace…
The only time Jesus said Church was, I will build my Church upon this Rock.
I gotta say, I never claimed to be a prophet, but if I was a prophet my track record is better than the LDS prophets and it seems I am batting a perfect 1,000. I predict LDS will not back up what they say, and they will run away, and guess what, I am right. By the way, where's LEE?
When i was having my crisis of faith while still attending the church with my family, there was this one testimony meeting when my mother asked me to give my testimony and i said ok. She then completed: "but it can´t be just about Jesus, just that isn´t enough".
From what i understand, many denominations believe in Jesus, that´s why it isn´t enough to believe Him, you also have to believe His supposed sanctioned denomination aka the one true church.
"Christ never made a penny teaching his message, why should man? This I agree, the Mormons have right. Gods message should be free to all."
I don´t know, Lee, when was the last time you went to a regular Christian Church and they charged you a price of admission? Mormons do require that money be paid for someone to receive the highest of blessings in the temple. People give money because they want to, voluntarily, just like you do to your church even though you don´t have a clue where the money will end up at. Also your church is a billion dollar corporation, so, quit with the hypocrisy.
"I know Mormon people, and their life centers fully around Christ
Sorry, but that´s a lie. Their lives are centered around their families. Jesus only enables you to progress to godhood, it´s your family plus jesus that make it possible. Jesus divides worship not just with joseph but with you yourselves.
" It is the one that makes the most sense if you really have the intelligence to truly understand Christ message in the New testament."
Oh, really? So why is its membership declining? A bit prideful, aren´t you? Actually mormonism doesn´t make sense at all unless you´re willing to discard the Bible and believe every wind of doctrine, false doctrine for that matter, coming from wolves in sheep´s clothing.
"and I think the Mormons just might have a head start on these facts!"
No, you don´t. So, tell me, can you be a Christ follower without belonging to the mormon church?
Another deception is this:
"He says he was told none of them was Gods true church. Not that the religions all lied, but none was the whole truth."
Actually if you read the account in the Pearl of Great Price, god tells Joseph that their creeds are an abomination and their preachers are all corrupt. What you´re saying is nothing but PR spin designed to get people more comfortable around mormons and to allow them to teach their message.
I don´t understand why mormons who show up here are always so mad at pastors for living off of preaching the Gospel while their apostles do the same thing. They say that they live the law of consecration, meaning that they donate all they have to the church and start living off of an allowance, a set amount of money nobody knows how much, but in a way that nothing actually belongs to them. Now, why the secrecy? Why isn´t it openly publicized how much they receive? Is it because people would be revolted at the immorally high allowances that they take supposedly just for themselves and their wives? I doubt people would still believe in the church´s divinity if they were aware of the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. That´s what´s great about the Bible, its writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, didn´t pull any punches, they said it like it was, even the most terrible shameful stuff – they cared for truth, may that be a lesson to the mormon church as its membership keeps on shrinking and most people get baptized and go inactive.
falcon,
All I can say is "milk before meat." I believe this is one of those doctrines that the leaders of the LDS church believe is just to sacred and involved for most every day mormons. Ya know, lying by omission is still lying. Someone should really explain that to all mormons.
Jesus didn't used the word "ekklesia," which is the Greek for "church." That word didn't exist at the time Jesus lived on the earth. It formulated later in the first century and made it into the writings.
This was something that I had a hard time with when I decided to leave Mormonism. I didn't know what "church" I should join. After studying the Bible, I learned that Christ's "church" is made up of believers. It's not an institutionalized organization. It's certainly not a multibillion dollar corporation either! Jesus did not die to give us a legalized religion, he died to give us eternal life. I think that men will always use legalized religion to try and control the masses. I've said before that there is such freedom in Christ.
Lee,
You never mention whether or not you are LDS, but I'm going to assume you are.
First, the LDS church does require payment to fully participate. Not only are you required to pay 10% of your income in order to receive Salvation, but you are then called in at the end of every year for a "tithing settlement" to make sure you paid enough to keep your temple recommend. You can't get to the Celestial Kingdom without your temple recommend right? Does this sound like something Jesus would have you do? All Jesus said is that we need to be a "cheerful giver". If you want to give 10% cheerfully to your church, great, but don't try pulling the wool over anyone's eyes by claiming that you don't have to pay tithing in order to fully participate in the LDS religion. It's a REQUIREMENT.
Second, you asked, "Why is this so hard to believe might be true, prophets lived in the world once, only when they were taken from this earth, did the world begin to go down hill"
It's hard to believe because Christ fulfilled the Old Testament. In the beginning, God gave us prophets, in the latter days he gave us his Son. True Christians live by the Son, not prophets. Christ himself warned us that there would be many false Christs and false prophets. How are we to tell who is false? We use God's Holy Word. All Mormon prophets fail the test. Please do some research on this.
Third, if LDS leaders aren't paid then please explain to me how Thomas Monson is a multimillionaire. These men are paid to do nothing but sit on a board of directors for the LDS church's businesses. Shouldn't that money be put into the missionary fund? Or the bishop's warehouse to feed the poor? They live a pretty grand life, expensive clothes, beautiful home, jet setting around the world all at your tithing expense. Again, please research.
I'm also wondering why you aren't defending your position. If everyone here is lying or omitting facts, please show us. The fact that you accused everyone and then run speaks volumes. I can tell by your comments that you haven't actually researched out your points at all. You are just going by what you have been taught in your Mormon church. I was taught the same things. Lee, you really need to put all of that aside and use your own brain. You need to research it all. I don't think you will see things quite the same way once you do that.
John 5:39