Jared, a Mormon Fundamentalist, brought his sign to the streets of Manti, Utah preceding a 2011 Mormon Miracle Pageant performance. He graciously agreed to give Aaron an interview (below).
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I agree with you 100% Brian. We have a poster here at MC who says Brigham Young is their favorite prophet, yet when one of us quote him, we are in need of “correction.” Never mind the fact that when this person quotes him, it’s the gospel truth. I also love how Mormons, especially apologists, say that he didn’t really mean things the way he said them or the darn person who wrote it down, wrote it down all wrong! It doesn’t matter that anything published by the LDS church past and present, has to be approved! All the twisting and spinning is ridiculous. That’s why it’s so refreshing to hear the truth about Brigham Young and his teachings by a Mormon. Yes, Jared is a Mormon. Living a purer form of Mormonism than his cousins in Salt Lake City. I admire him for his honesty, he didn’t waver once on his beliefs about Brigham and his doctrines, no matter how much Aaron showed him the errors from the Bible. Not once did he intentionally lie or omit facts. The LDS could learn a lesson from Jared. If you believe in Brigham as a prophet of god then you have to take all of his doctrines as if they are from god. You don’t get to pick and choose which ones to believe, and throw out the rest.
I always find it funny when Mormons use the OT kings and leaders as their example of why polygamy is okay with God. They always seem to overlook that God commanded the kings of Israel to only marry one wife “lest their hearts be led astray” (Deut 17:17). And what was always the outcome of those who married more than one wife? Anger, jealousy, conflict, bitterness, and sometimes death. The Bible is full of sad stories from the result of these men stepping outside of God’s original plan.
And yes, it’s very refreshing (er… sad?) to see a pure Mormon who proclaims his belief in a prophet and doesn’t try to fudge over the complicated (ie. crazy!) teachings. I really don’t think most modern-day Mormons have any idea what kind of religion they’ve signed up for. They take the missionaries for their word instead of God’s. They like the “families forever”, emergency prepardness, good morals, etc stuff they talk about, but when it gets any deeper than that? They act annoyed or misunderstood or try to accuse those questioning of being “anti” and attacking their faith. And the kids that grow up in it? They don’t have much of a choice. I know of a 2 year old who just visited a temple open house and all she talked about was getting married. When will she be taught that her future husband could choose to have plural wives if he so wishes? Or if he gets all mad at her in the eternities, he can choose to leave her in her grave? Or that it says “families forever”, but if one kid isn’t as good as the other, they’ll get stuck in different heavens, and she’ll be too busy being prego to visit them. 🙂
Yes, plural marriage is difficult, and many a heart broken and families destroyed, hence Abraham and his failure to keep his families together.
Modern day marriages, one husband one wife and children. The Americans for Divorce Reform estimates that “Probably, 40 or possibly even 50 percent of marriages will end in divorce if current trends continue.”
Yep, marriage alone can be a test of love and commitment.
Helen/Louis
Kate states, I agree with you 100% Brian. We have a poster here at MC who says Brigham Young is their favorite prophet, yet when one of us quote him, we are in need of “correction.” Never mind the fact that when this person quotes him, it’s the gospel truth.
Correction, quote of BY that one must be a practicing Polygamist to reach exaltation or the Celestial world. That is so ridiculous since they only wanted to quote the one sentence. Lets see what BY really stated.
Brigham Young thought similarly: “If you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained.”[3] On other occasions he instructed: “A man may embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord.”[4] “If it is wrong for a man to have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it will not be known in the Church.”[5] “If it is necessary to have two wives, take them. If it is right, reasonable and proper and the Lord permits a man to take half a dozen wives, take them; but if the Lord says let them alone, let them alone. How long? Until we go down to the grave, if the Lord demand it.”[6] “If we could make every man upon the earth get him a wife, live righteously and serve God, we would not be under the necessity, perhaps, of taking more than one wife. But they
But they will not do this; the people of God, therefore, have been commanded to take more wives.”[7] Apostle John Henry Smith recalled that “President Young once proposed that we marry but one wife.”
Is Plural Marriage Required for Exaltation?
Today members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may ask, “Is plural marriage required for exaltation?” One year after the 1890 Manifesto, George Q. Cannon gave this answer: “I know there are a great many who feel that, this being a principle of exaltation, they may be in danger of losing their exaltation, because of their inability to obey this. I want to say to all such that the Lord judges our hearts; He looks at our motives. There were a great many men in past times who never had the privilege of obeying this doctrine, because the law was not given to them. Do you think that they are excluded from exaltation? Do you think that they will be deprived of celestial glory? I do not.”
Helen/Louis
Helen,
Johhny, IE, Grindael, Lays out in detail How JS did break the law from D and C and his many wives, I notice you never corrected him, so what he said must be true. If it is then your wrong and again, following a false teacher right to hell. If Johhny got it wrong, then by all means correct him so we can see. Bet you wont, you will either ignore what I said, or make some excuse why you wont. Rick
Helen,
Wow that is quite a quote from George Q. Cannon. So tell me why any man practiced polygamy? The D&C 132 clearly says a man can not enter into his glory and is damned if he doesn’t practice it. All you’ve done is proven that Mormonism is whatever the leaders want it to be at any given time. How sad for people to be thrown here and there by every wind of teaching. Oh yea, didn’t the Bible warn us about this?
Kate,
The quote by Cannon is AFTER the Manifesto. Helen cuts and pastes from this website http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequiredToday.htm#1
which is full of such quotes, but fails to mention the plethora of quotes that say that it is. Brigham Young said also:
“President Young said there would be men saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God with one wife,with many wives and with no wife at all. ” (Woodruff Journals, Feb. 12, 1870). But there are three levels to the Celestial Kingdom, and Young clarifies this with:
August 31, 1873: At Paris, Idaho: President B. Young spoke one hour and 18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another. But he may be saved in the Kingdom of God, but be single to all eternity. Mother Eve was the daughter of Adam. (There’s that Adam-god thing again).
Hmmm. So yes, there are those who will go to the Celestial Kingdom, but those who do not practice polygamy, ‘will be single to all eternity’ his wife being ‘given to another’. Of course the majority of those quotes are taken out of context or are from AFTER the 1890 Manifesto, when the Mormon god had changed his mind. Helen is deceptive in her quotes, the same thing she accuses others of. How so? Here is one example, this quote by Young which began…:
“If you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith,”
She left out the rest of it:
“You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: “We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character, and office, etc.” The man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.”
This is EXACTLY what happened with the Manifesto, they were threatened with all their property being taken, and caved in to the U.S. Government, claiming NOW after 50 years, ‘we will obey the law’. No, they were FORCED to obey the law. For this, as Young states, they will, “come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory.” Why? Because “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (JOD 11:269)
And the lack of sources in Helen’s quotes? And links to where she got them from? Well, I’ll let that speak for itself. _johnny
Kate says, The D&C 132 clearly says a man can not enter into his glory and is damned if he doesn’t practice it.
OK Kate, 132 and what verse or verses? You are going to show that this section of D&C is relating to what Plural Marriage or Being married in the Temple for time and eternity.
The verse which might be addressing D&C 132:3-6 are not about polygamy they are talking about Temple Marriage. Read first 3-33 regarding principles of celestial marriage, the second part deals with plural marriage. The doctrine of celestial marriage remains in force; the practice of plural marriage was abandoned by the acceptance by the Church, in Conference assembled October 6th, 1890, of the Manifesto of President Woodruff.”
The “new and everlasting covenant” (D&C 132:4) is the covenant of celestial marriage, as President Spencer W. Kimball stated: “Though relatively few people in this world understand it, the new and everlasting covenant is the marriage ordinance in the holy temple by the properly constituted leaders who hold the genuine, authoritative keys. This glorious blessing is available to men and women on this earth.”
Source:
http://ldsces.org/inst_manuals/dc-in/man…
Brigham is making clear reference to the Parable of the talents. The man with one talent did nothing to increase that talent so he lost it when it came time to make an accounting.
What is missing from much of the replies to me about this statement is that we are talking about God Law of Plural Marriage when He himself commands it. In this case, Brigham is stating that the man is being called upon to increase his family by taking another wife and he refused. By so doing, he is being proud and turning his back on God. God will not take kindly to being told no by that man. Thus, he will lose the wife he was originally given because he refused to increase his family when given the command and opportunity to do so. So what else did BY say, if one cannot practice plural marriage then at least in his/her faith they must understand it a Law given by God and only those chosen to live it will not be awarded in heaven if the refuse to obey it.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
You need to let the scriptures speak for itself. How do you know what J
(After 1882 Edmunds Act) Franklin S. Richards stated that celestial marriage meant nothing more than being sealed to a single partner for eternity. This shift [was] taken as one of several moves esigned to lessen hostility toward the Saints. (See B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, p.54)
“John [B. Cannon] recalled that his father [George M. Cannon] took him aside in the library of their home and told him that polygamous living was a requirement if one wished to enter the highest level of the celestial kingdom.” (quoted in Solemn Covenant, B. Carmon Hardy, p. 316)
“They (Joseph and Hyrum) had to do the works of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in order to be admitted where they are – they had to be polygamists in order to be received into their society.” (1857, JD 4:224)
“The marriage of one woman to a man for time and eternity by the sealing power, according to the law of God, is a fulfillment of the celestial law of marriage IN PART – and is good so far as it goes…But this is only the beginning of the law, not the whole of it. Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it.” (JD 20:28)
Sorry, clicked reply too soon on the last one. I was asking how you KNOW what Brigham Young meant or what he was referencing to? Wasn’t it you that said we can’t know at all what was said because we weren’t there? I just choose to let them speak for themselves. I don’t try to twist and turn everything to make it all peachy. More quotes from your leaders:
John Taylor:
(1886) “All I those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law.” [plural marriage] And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham? I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof.” [1886 Revelation]
From what I’ve read, up until the mid-1880’s, the term plural marriage was used interchangeably with celestial marriage, patriarchal marriage, and new and everlasting covenant of marriage. JoD 20:28 is pretty interesting. I didn’t quote the entire page because of space but check it out for yourself.
Kate, I agree with your assessment of Jared. It is refreshing to meet a Mormon
who does’nt try to deny or dodge the past spiritual counsel issued by their prophets
and apostles. The Mormon people need to exchange their prophets for THE prophet,
Jesus. May God give Mormons the strength to make that decision.
M.R.
Brigham Young just for you Kate: “If you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained.”
On other occasions he instructed: “A man may embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord.”
“If it is wrong for a man to have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it will not be known in the Church.”
“If it is necessary to have two wives, take them. If it is right, reasonable and proper and the Lord permits a man to take half a dozen wives, take them; but if the Lord says let them alone, let them alone. How long? Until we go down to the grave, if the Lord demand it.”
“If we could make every man upon the earth get him a wife, live righteously and serve God, we would not be under the necessity, perhaps, of taking more than one wife.
But they will not do this; the people of God, therefore, have been commanded to take more wives.”
Apostle John Henry Smith recalled that “President Young once proposed that we marry but one wife.”
Is Plural Marriage Required for Exaltation?
Today members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may ask, “Is plural marriage required for exaltation?” One year after the 1890 Manifesto, George Q. Cannon gave this answer: “I know there are a great many who feel that, this being a principle of exaltation, they may be in danger of losing their exaltation, because of their inability to obey this. I want to say to all such that the Lord judges our hearts; He looks at our motives. There were a great many men in past times who never had the privilege of obeying this doctrine, because the law was not given to them. Do you think that they are excluded from exaltation? Do you think that they will be deprived of celestial glory? I do not.”
Helen/Louis
Helen,
Once again all you have shown with your quotes from Brigham Young is that he was all over the place with his teachings. Why is it that you pick and choose which quotes you want to use but leave out all the ones that anyone else posts that say the exact opposite of what you are posting? He said plenty on plural marriage and how a man has to practice it in this lifetime or he can’t enter into the glory of the Father. What about all the quotes that I posted by several LDS leaders? Do you only listen to Brigham Young? If so, do you believe that Adam is god?? There is a poster here that I am happy to have back! His name is Mike R. and he often says that the LDS leaders are poor spiritual guides. He is absolutely correct. Helen, do yourself a huge favor and put away all of this nonsense, open up the true Word of God and ask the true Lord to reveal himself to you. All you have to do is ask.
Helen, a man turns his back on God by refusing to take a prophet’s advise to enter into
polygamy? You’re trying to convince everyone here that this is the same gospel that
Jesus commisioned His apostles to preach ? Incredible! This gospel of Mormonism
is obviously absent from the New Testament , and with good reason as it’s “another
gospel” [ Gal.1:8-9]. Interesting that sincere Mormons were heard testifying that
by entering into polygamy they were thus experiencing the fullness of the Gospel.
I guess Mormons today are short changed then. How sad that sincere good people
are misled by false prophets. These spiritual leaders have become detours to the
Mormon people preventing them from experiencing the authentic gospel of the Lord
Jesus Christ by their claims of being the channel that God uses to dispense spiritual
truth to mankind. Reject their counsel you reject God ! Jesus warned of such–Matt7:15
Kate, you are so correct in stating that Brigham Young was all over the place in
many of his teachings . People concerned their spiritual walk will do well to avoid his
counsel since on important doctrines he has proved to be un-reliable to relay
God’s truths to mankind. It’s interesting to see how he reacted when many of
his followers did not buy his personal revelation concerning Adam being the
Father of Jesus etc. Concerned by the skeptical attitude of his followers, he
tried to down play the importance of this new doctrine by , at times, returning
to a pre-Adam-god HF doctrinal position . He acted like a veteran politician .
Same with his statements on polygamy. When not enough worthy men chose
not to enter into this lifestyle( there could be several reasons for this choice ),
Brigham came up with the rationale of just believe in your heart that it’s a true
doctrine authorized by Jesus, and you’ll be exalted reguardless of you practicing
polygamy or not. What? I don’t see God in any of this . I see confusion by a prophet.
There’s enough inconsistency in Brigham’s teachings on this doctrine to allow
some well meaning Mormons to deny the centrality in their religion concerning
this doctrine. Well, that’s my musing on this subject. May Helen come to see the
need for Jesus alone, not a “latter-day ” prophet, not polygamy, not a temple .
Heb 7:25
Mike, welcome back.
Well in case you missed it, Helen said to me,
I asked her to back that statement up and show me from the Bible where all these Mormon doctrines are taught by the LDS church. Knowing her she will find a way, but I am still as of this time waiting.
Actually Rick, I’m wonder if Helen will even come back. How can she show from the Bible all those weird self serving doctrines of Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders? Helen also has shown herself to be an occultist, admitting to the practice of divination. I’m wondering if this is the reason she hasn’t been on today. Maybe I’m wrong and she’s just out of town or something. We’ll see.
Mike,
Helen doesn’t think that one needs polygamy to be exalted. If this is true then D&C 132 is a false doctrine. I also wonder why it hasn’t been removed from LDS scriptures. Well actually I know why. Every Mormon I know believes that polygamy is an LDS doctrine but that it has been put aside because they have to obey the laws of the land. They also believe that it will be brought back and put into practice sometime in the future. Just not now. They believe that when god orders it again they need to be ready. It’s so sad to listen to LDS women around me, over the years I have heard several talk about how hard that day is going to be. One woman said “Why can’t Scott just change her wagon wheel? Why does he need to sleep with her?” You see, we have been taught in church that polygamy started with Brigham Young and the move West, and the only reason polygamy was practiced was because there were just so many widows and coming West was so difficult. The LDS church can no longer get away with this lie. The internet has made it possible for anyone to search out these things.
Yes, the wonderful Word of God as found in the Bible surely makes plural marriage a controversial subject.
Old Testament Polygamists
Abijah (2 Chronicles 13:21.)
Abraham (Genesis 16:1–3; 23:1–2; 25:1,6.)
Ahab (1 Kings 20:3.)
Ahasuerus (Esther 1:9; 2:3, 14, 17.)
Ashur (1 Chronicles 4:5.)
Belshazzar (Daniel 5:2.)
Caleb (1 Chronicles 2:18–19,46,48.)
David (1 Samuel 18:27; 25:42–44; 2 Samuel 3:3–5,13–14; 5:13;; 12:7–8,24; 15:16; 16:21–23; 1 Chronicles 14:3.)
Elkanah (1 Samuel 1:2.)
Esau (Genesis 26:34; 28:9, 36:1–14.)
Ezra (1 Chronicles 4:17–18.)
Gideon (Judges 8:30.)
Jacob (Genesis 29:23–28; 30:4–9.)
Jehoiachin (2 Kings 24:15.)
Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:14.)
Jerahmeel (1 Chronicles 2:26.)
Joash (2 Chronicles 24:3.)
Lamech (Genesis 4:19.)
Manasseh (1 Chronicles 7:14.)
Mered (1 Chronicles 4:17–19.)
Moses (Exodus 2:21; 18:1–6; Numbers 12:1.)
Nahor (Genesis 22:20–24.)
Rehoboam (2 Chronicles 11:18–23.)
Saul (1 Samuel 14:50; 2 Samuel 3:7.)
Shaharaim (1 Chronicles 8:8.)
Simeon (Genesis 46:10; Exodus 6:15.)
Solomon (1 Kings 11:3.)
Zedekiah (Jeremiah 38:23.)
The following men appear to have multiple wives by implication:
Eliphaz (Genesis 36:11–12.)
Heman (1 Chronicles 25:5.)
Hosea (Hosea 1:3; 3:1.)
Ibzan (Judges 12:9.)
Jair (Judges 10:4.)
Shimei (1 Chronicles 4:27.)
Ziba (2 Samuel 9:10.)
Maybe the were on to something that Evangelicals lost to the great apostasy.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Rick B says:
Well in case you missed it, Helen said to me,
The true gospel, as taught by Paul (as well as Peter, James, John, the other disciplines, and even the Lord Jesus Christ himself) is the same one that is taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I asked her to back that statement up and show me from the Bible where all these Mormon doctrines are taught by the LDS church. Knowing her she will find a way, but I am still as of this time waiting.
Rick B. The Book of Mormon has many marvelous and unique doctrines that expand on the Biblical text. The prophet Nephi in the Book of Mormon makes the bold claim that it would contain “many plain and precious” doctrines that originally existed in the Bible, but were subsequently removed, either deliberately or by error 1 Nephi 13:26–40.
Basically, not my problem that you only believe God can produce one book of scripture. That God is not capable of more doctrine. That God is limited because man tells God what He can and cannot do.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
You just exposued yourself as the true hyprocite you really are. You jump on everyone telling them to back up what they said, now you cannot. So you then try and tell me it is my problem that I dont believe God can come up with more than one book.
I told you before, the Bible is 66 Books, written by 40 different authors, over 1000,s of years. So add to that, YOU SAID, not me, You said, Paul teaches the gospel that you LDS believe. So I asked you to back it up. You avoided that by saying the BoM adds to the Bible.
That is different because Paul is never mentioned in the BoM, and it took around 2,000 years to come forward. So you need to provide evidence of Paul teaching mormonism, And I will make a case to the Mods to do to you what Aaron did with Daniel, answer the question or dont be allowed to post until you do. Remember, you said it, not me, so now back it up or admit the Bible does not teach what you believe. It’s rather simple, it’s either in their or it’s not. And if not then you have bigger problems.
Helen,
Show me in the Bible where God commanded those men to be polygamists. If polygamy is such a wonderful thing and is from your god, then why aren’t you practicing it? Let’s take a look at the books that you claim are scripture:
The BoM. It was “translated” with a magic rock in a hat. Hmmmm.
The BoA. It was “translated” from ordinary Egyptian funeral scrolls. Joseph Smith certainly had a fertile imagination. By the way, the Church of Christ (RLDS) denounced the BoA as something from Joseph’s imagination. They don’t use it. In fact they use the BoM (not in the same way as the LDS) because it teaches the Holy Trinity.
The D&C. This is a modge podge of thinking by early LDS leaders. Most of it isn’t even practiced by the LDS. If Mormonism is true, LDS prophets should still be receiving revelation right? Why aren’t there new revelations in the D&C? The last one was in 1978 and before that it was 1890. By the way, the LDS are the only sect, as far as I know, who are no longer receiving revelation to add to their D&C. Why is that?
You said: Basically, not my problem that you only believe God can produce one book of scripture.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
1Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I do not believe that God is limited. I just don’t believe that a man with a magic rock, brought before a judge 40 times, with no morals whatsoever, has the power to say anything for God.
Helen, unlike God’s grace, there is a limit to my grace, and you have reached it. You have continued to disregard Mormon Coffee’s comment policy regarding copying from LDS apologetic sources though you have been asked to conform your comments to this policy. Furthermore, you demand a standard of response (including evidentiary support and documentation) from others here that you appear unwilling to abide by yourself. Therefore, please respond to the request that you provide support for your assertion that “The true gospel, as taught by Paul (as well as Peter, James, John, the other disciplines, and even the Lord Jesus Christ himself) is the same one that is taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Until you do so, your comments on any other topic will be deleted.
Thank you Sharon.
I hate how LDS set a standerd for us, and demand we abide by it, but they will not abide by it for themselves. Well Helen if you give me the information YOU claimed was in the Bible then great, I look forward to an honest debate. If you cannot and do not, well then I guess this is Good by. Rick
Rick. Kate, thanks for your welcoming me back. It’s great to see all of you on the firing
line trying to reason with Mormons about the liberating truth found in the person
of the Lord Jesus Christ– Heb7:25.
Helen, that was a great list of O.T. men you provided. I’m sure there were other behaviors
which these men engaged in that He allowed also [ compare Matt 19:8 ] . It ‘s important
to realize that these men worshiped Jehovah, the Lord God . This Jehovah came to earth
He was called Jesus. Jesus, by His death and resurrection , inaugurated a new arrangement
with man, the New Testament . Jesus commissioned 12 apostles to spread this good news,
termed the Gospel. They’re exploits are recorded for us. Followers of Jesus/Jehovah now
know His will . Jesus warned of those men who , even through well intentions, would seek
to insert their own reasonings onto the Gospel claiming they had heard from Him personally.
He cautioned His apostles to watch out for these men as they would be offering the people
a different gospel, one that Jesus could not endorse. Mormon apostles succumbed to this
very scenario . By teaching that polygamy was part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, part of His
new arrangement, they fell victim to their own desire of what they personally felt was the
Gospel. One Mormon apostle claimed that he believed in polygamy as much as he believed
in baptism. This was the Mormon gospel , proclaimed by “latter-Day” apostles. This was not
the gospel that Jesus inaugurated and which His apostles spread. Jesus warned of future
imitations– Matt 7:15; 24:11,24. 1Jn. 4:1 ; 2thess. 2:2 ,13-17 .
I want to apologize to Sharon and also Rick B. I will now remember to submit a more condensed summation from sources I have acquired my information, such as FARM’s or others.
Rick B. let me try to give you my own person answer to the following which you have politely asked of me.
Why do I personally believe that — “The true gospel, as taught by Paul (as well as Peter, James, John, the other disciplines, and even the Lord Jesus Christ himself) is the same one that is taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
I have read the Bible completely and compared it to the Doctrines of Mormonism. What I mean is that the principle and ordinances such as Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Holy Ghost are the same principles and ordinances that were taught by Jesus, and his apostles. Other ordinances such as Initiatory, endowment, and celestial ceilings for time and eternity are restored principles that were lost during the great apostasy. The Bible is not inerrant, lost books, missing scriptures, scriptures translated incorrectly, etc, etc, are all validated by many theologist and researchers from around the world. It has been proven over and over that the Bible is the word of God as it is translated correctly.
8th article of Faith.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
It has been revealed to me, that the Bible is the word of God and that It is the same Gospel as is taught today in the Mormon Faith.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Aaron,
Thought I should clarify your understanding about Joseph F. Smith. He did not deny the Adam-God doctrine. Let’s take a look at his progression.
This one is not from Joseph F., but from Brigham. However, it’s in Joseph F.’s journal, and is a significant teaching for those who want to understand what the early brethren understood the “naming convention” to be, especially with regards to the temple account of the creation:
If you page through the many sermons of the early brethren throughout the 1800’s, you’ll see they understood Elohim, Jehovah, Lord, God, etc to be titles. Brigham didn’t change his mind back and forth, back and forth on who is who. Sometimes he referred to the Father as Jehovah, sometimes as Adam, sometimes as Michael. However, most of the time, the early brethren did call the Father by Jehovah. All of this changed in the 20th Century, starting with Joseph F. Smith presidency statement.
That’s when the naming convention, as we now know it, started. This is also when the Presidency started to distance itself from Adam-God doctrine. Try to see it from their perspective. There were many who doubted and fought the teaching:
Then you had the famous incident in Bunkerville, where there was much contention and discord over the Adam-God doctrine. Joseph F. Smith decided to class it as a “mystery” (despite his earlier feelings which demonstrated that he believed it as a revealed truth from heaven). He did not deny it. It’s fine to call Adam or Michael “Elohim” as he did. Elohim is merely a title, but it really means plural gods or council of the gods. Jehovah could refer to Jesus or the Father, in essence. It is a title. Much like how “Bishop” can refer to multiple people.
It’s my own personal belief that under the administration of Joseph F. Smith, however, persecution and disbelief, and contention necessitated removing the teaching from the temple and not teaching it anymore – much like Moses did with the children of Israel
and instead gave them the lesser law, which came to be known as the Mosaic law.
Here are some statements:
But then he also said:
In other words, although openly treated as a mystery, Adam-God does not appear to have been a mystery to those who were “thus endowed” with the Holy Ghost and believed, as this was a doctrine that had earlier “gave him great joy.”
Helen, thank you for your response. For the sake of continuity I will recap the question in its context.
Rick B wrote:
Helen responded:
Rick B responded:
The gospel according to the LDS Church is “all the teachings and ordinances given to us by Jesus Christ and His prophets” (First Presidency Message, Ensign, February 2011, 6. Emphasis mine.). You have been asked to provide evidentiary support and documentation to substantiate your claim, the same sort of evidence you demand from others. Where do we find Paul and the other disciples teaching the LDS doctrines that God was once a man, that men can become Gods, that human beings lived with God before mortality, that eternal marriage is required for people to achieve the best eternal reward, etc.? If your argument is that these Mormon teachings have been removed or otherwise lost from the Bible, you will need to provide support and documentation for this assertion as well.
Wow iamse7en! All I got out of this is that Brigham Young gave a false revelation! He said that god revealed it to him, so shouldn’t all LDS believe it? If it’s directly from your god and Brigham was a true prophet, then why is it being thrown under the bus as “just his opinion?” God is not a God of confusion and there is no confusion to Christians as to who God is. It’s in the Bible. Mormonism has changed it’s mind about who God is many times. Don’t you get tired of the back and forth, up and down? Look here, no look there! I just have one scripture for you:
Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Mormonism can’t even get God right. Now who is giving misinformation?
Helen,
When Sharon said to you that if you reply with, all these teachings you claim are in the Bible, but then say they were lost or removed, or something happened, then we have a few problems.
1. Jesus quoted from the OT, So if He could do that, then why did He never say, something were lost and I am here to restore them?
2. The same teachings you claimed were taught in the Bible and we are asking evidence for that we suspect you will simply say, they were lost or removed, are also not taught in the BoM.
I read the BoM cover to cover and use it when talking with LDS. I even have a favorite verse I quote often, and guess what, These teaching cannot be found in the BoM.
Show me if you can from the BoM, pre-existance, God was once a man, Eternal marraige, Etc. This goes back to what I posted by Bruce Mc, I called the Bruce Mc Challange. Bruce claimed their are Hundreds of things taught in the BoM that help clarify whats taught in the Bible. I have shown that challange many times to LDS on my Blog and this blog and in person.
Many LDS told me they would easly take that challange and show me, But everyone has failed, most say they will show me and never return, others tried giving me a verse or two but with no real substance. You never even tried or knew you could not do it. You know why everyone has failed? Becasue the information simply is not their, Bruce was never challanged by someone asking for evidence and bow that he is dead, he cannot back up his claim, and neither can you. If you think you can, I am ready and waiting.
[Find Rick B’s Bruce McConkie Challenge here: http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/03/ruce-r-mcconkies-challenge.html%5D
Helen,
Just a few things here, On my mormon Blog I posted the bruce 5 different times, and all 5 times are still there, The times I posted it are, (1st) Jan 2006, (2nd) Sept 5th 2007, ( 3rd) march 31 st 2008
(4th) Nov 17 2008 (5th)March 5th 2007
No one has ever answered it. Just a heads up also, If you reply on my blog, I will not post it or reply until this issue here is resolved. If you reply under a different name, I guess I wont know it’s you since I am not tech savvy and cannot find IP address and stuff. But a heads up, I really only have two rules on my blog, Leave my family out of things since people are talking to me, they are not posting so leave them out. 2. No swearing, otherwise, I play rough and with no rules, I am willing to bet you will sit at home and cry if you want to play under a fake name and debate me. I pull no punches, spare no feelings, share my thoughts, and have no one to tell me, I cannot say that. Their are people here on this blog that will tell me I cannot say certain things, So I abide by their rules, On my blog I say what I want, and allow others to say what they want, as long as they dont attack my family, Which has happened. and No swearing. Otherwise, nothing is off limits. Just a heads up since you seem to get up set over me using a certain 4 letter word and saying what I think about you.
Dont want no surprises with you if you feel so inclined as to play on my blog.
Helen is asking for a reference for the Bruce McConkie statement Rick B mentioned. The info can be found here:
http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/03/ruce-r-mcconkies-challenge.html
Helen, you do not need to deal with the McConkie Challenge here; we are only waiting for you to provide support for the claim you asserted in your earlier comment.
Helen,
I am not sure what was missed and by who, but here is my point on the bruce challange.
You said that the apostles taught Mormon Doctrine, I asked you to back it up, you did not or could not. I asked your you to stand up and do what you call us to do and that is provide exidence.
You did not and were put on hold until you did, Then you came back with mere word games stating it’s your opion that they taught that. Why is it ok for you to say, it’s your opinion they taught these things, when if we were to say, it’s our opinion that the LDS are wrong, then it boils down to this, LDS opinion equels fact, Christion Opinion equeals mere opinion that is verging on apostacy.
Now when you were then given quotes by your church and asked to back up your statment, I said that if you reply with, these teachings were simply removed from the Bible and that is why they are no longer in it then we have a problem because they are also not taught in the BoM. That was why I started the Bruce MC challange in the first place, Bruce stated they were in the BoM and would help further clarify whats in the Bible. I stated that a while back I posted Bruces challange to you and assumed you could not do it since you never replied to it.
Now if you want to take it up, that comes after you answer the question your being held to account for. The Bruce challange is for a later time and I simply see you trying to avoid what you need to account for by trying to bring that up.
So Helen back to the oringal question, where in the Bible do we find the apostles teaching, God was once a man? Eternal marraige? Satan and lucifer are brothers? The pre-existance? God has a wife? and a whole host of other things. Then if you simply say as Sharon pointed out, well you see these were the plain and presious parts that were removed from the Bible, then support that with facts and evidence, Not well I think that happened since these teachings are not in their.
Remember, Your the one that said these things, Central core LDS doctrines were taught by the apostles. And you have cracked the whip on many to provide facts, and you are the one that plays word games, Well we dont really know what God meant when he said he would destory Emma, was it spirtual or pyscial? Please, thats lame, If I walked up to a cop and said, I will destroy you, I would get a beat down on the spot, He would not question what I meant. If a cop would not question what I meant, why should we start questioning what God meant, I believe we know, but to admit it would pose serious problems.
Ok, so I can’t answer the Bruce McConkie Challenge and that leaves me with what we do teach that is also taught in the Bible.
1). Baptism is essential and not symbolic. Acts 2:38, “Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Is this a request or a commandment to be obedient? If symbolic then one could choose not to be baptized yet still be forgiven of sin? So what is it. I belief the Bible is very specific.
2). Receive the Holy Ghost also essential, Mormons teach this the scriptures attest to the administering of the ordinance of confirmation in New Testament times. When Peter and John went to Samaria and found certain disciples who had received John’s baptism in water, they “laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost” Acts 8:17; see also verses 14-22. The scriptures sometimes refer to the sanctifying influence of the Holy Ghost as the “baptism of fire” (Matt. 3:11
3). Repentance as taught by Mormons is not a one time event and the scripture prove this: The Apostle John taught: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, Jesus Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” 1 John 1:8–9.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I
4). Tithing: We teach it and also it was required in the Bible. Malachi 3:10 reads:
5). Baptism for the dead, we teach it and so did the Bible. 1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
6). Mormons teaches that God promises us knowledge and truth if we just ask . James 1:5 This is also Biblical. 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
7). We teach preexistence so does the Bible. These Bible verses back up the Mormon belief of the preexistence: Job 38:7 Rev 12:7 Jer 1:5 Acts 17:28 Rom 8:29 Eph 1:4 Jude 1:6
8). These Bible verses back up the Mormon believe that humans are the literal children of God and are heirs to what he has (I only have a few right now but I know there are more): Psalm: 82:6
Hosea: 1:10 Acts: 17:28-29
9). We teach degrees of Glory, so does the Bible. Also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial; but the glory of the celestial, one; and the terrestrial, another; and the telestial, another. 1 Corinthians 15:40
10). Priesthood authority in the Church of Jesus Christ as is taught in the Bible.
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. (Mark 1:27
Christ passed on this very same authority to His apostles.
1 THEN he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (Luke 9:1-2)
This priesthood authority is sacred and cannot be bought.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he
may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.(Acts 8:18-20)
We cannot choose this priesthood authority for ourselves.
So Rick, these are just a few examples of what Mormons teach that is also found in the Bible.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Rick B. Sharon gave out your web site blog, I read it and did not find the actual quote from McConkie there. I see that you stated such, but did not source the reference you gave giving credit to Bruce as something he stated. Please help me out here, I’m still interested in seeing what he was referring to and since you have quoted him and stated he specifically said this, then you most likely have the source available to all us LDS that are interested. Thank, much appreciated.
Helen/Louis. 🙂
This is what I stated, “The true gospel, as taught by Paul (as well as Peter, James, John, the other disciplines, and even the Lord Jesus Christ himself) is the same one that is taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Rick stated, “Remember, Your the one that said these things, Central core LDS doctrines were taught by the apostles.
I think what Rick and I might disagree about is core LDS Doctrine. Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost. I’m sorry Rick if you got the impression I was referring to other doctrinal mormons ordinances and covenants that we do not find in the Bible or even the Book of Mormon.
Lost ordinances and covenants in the Bible. 1 Nephi 13:26 “They have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious.”
We also have to ask this question, are there missing book which should have been included in the Bible if not, why? these books are no longer in our Bibles, such as Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, and 1 Clement. In fact even Russian Orthodox have bibles that contain books missing from our western Bible, which came via the Roman Catholic Church.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
Where do I start with you?
First off the issues of things like repentance and baptism and tithing, Those are not the issue, I see these as straw men. I never denied that LDS teach these, and never asked you where they were in the Bible. We differ on thse points, example, Christains dont believe we are saved if we get baptised.
Paul even said, Jesus did not send him to baptise, and the Bible tells us that Jesus did not baptise people. So this subject has benn debated over and over on this site and will probally come up again.
The issue of tithing, most Christians I know practice that, we just dont believe it must be done in order to enter the temple and reach a higher level of heaven, Now if you can show me from scripture where that is taught then go right ahead.
The issue of repentance, most Christians I know agree, we need to repent daily aince we sin, stumble, Fall etc daily. We just disagree with LDS on the issue of Death bed repentance, you guys deny that, and people who commit murder or are on death row. Show me from scripture where it says people who are condemed to die or are on their death bed cannot repent. See it’s these little addations to your doctrine that cannot be supported by scripture. I think you knew that was what I meant, but you give broad meaning that you know we agree on.
The issue of asking for Wisdom, Again I never asked about that, But since you brought it up, how come your prophets dont seek God and get answers to the Bigger questions? Many people on this blog have asked, How come you guys teach/preach new revelation, yet none ever comes forward?
We never see/hear about the prophets getting revelation from God and clearing up the confusing issues that plauge mormonism, simply never happens. So it seems James is a verse you use yet never practice.
Now the verse you quote for the Pre-extisance dont prove what you believe, here again, do we read in these verse you quote that we lived with God and He choose to send use through a veil of forgetfullness and we have a porbation period here on earth and get to go back with Him later? No that is not taught, do we read that their was a great battle in heaven and some people sat on the side lines and as a result they were cursed with black skin? We dont read that either. It’s these issues that you cannot supprt from scripture. You guys simply make this stuff up and in order to prove it, need “new revelation” from your prophet. Even the BoM does not teach thse things.
Yes God said I knew you before you were born, But He knows both how we are, what we will be and He knows because He created us and knows the future, He knew what march 1st 2000 would be like back when the earth was still being formed. So these verse do not prove anything.
Take baptism for the dead, It is one verse, yet you build an entire doctrine out of it, show me where the Bible says, We need to build temple and pray over the dead, and baptise by proxy, cannot be done.
Take the issue of priesthood authority, Show me where Jesus or one of the apostles ever says, I bestow priesthood authority upon you to do these things, or you must have priesthood authiorty to do these things? It does not exist.
We see Jesus saying, Go and do these things in my name, But then not anyone can. We see an account in acts where 7 brothers say, In the name of Jesus I commanded you to leave, and the demon whoops them and causes them to run naked and bleeding from the house. We do not read that these guys did not have priesthood athourity, we only know that not everyone that says, Lord Lord really knows Jesus.
You degrees of Glory is another one where you build an entire Doctrine. We have the realm we live in, the air where planes and birds fly and space, that is what Paul is talking about, yet you guys some how turn that into a doctrine that has certain people in 3 different heaves, some can get baptised into another one, Jesus only being in the second and third ones. So please show me from the Bible where it teaches these things in the detail you guys believe them. I should have know better knowing you would play these games and should have been super spefic, From now on I will be super spefic with you since this is how you play. Show me these great in depth details from the Bible teaching what you believe, You said they were their, they were taught, now show me, stop with the being vauge. You demand from us spot details, we will expact the same in return.
Helen said
Yoo need to be more spefic, What exactly did he say that you want me to provide. Bruce said lots of stuff. But first answer my questions with the indepth answers, and I will answer you. LDS teachings, indepth are not there.
Helen,
You never showed me from Scripture where Jesus was once a man who became a God. You never showed me where God the Father is married. You guys claim we can become Gods our-self one day, where does it say in the Bible we will be Gods and have our own planet. In light of us becoming Gods, how do you reconcile the fact that God the father said, there are no gods formed before Him and none will be formed after Him.
Show me from scripture where God the father has a father. Show me the in depth details of the pre-existence of the great battle where some people sat on the side lines for not being valiant and as a result were cursed with black skin. The 3 degrees of heaven in depth, who goes their and why? when we go deep these things simply are not taught and supported by the Bible. You guys take a verse or two and build an entire doctrine out of them. You might think I am being mean and unfair to demand detail, but everyone can go back and read how demanding and detail orientated you are, so we expect the same in return. I now know better to be super specif with you. That was my fault but will not happen again.
When you start asking for specif details, then you see they simply are not their and never were. It is also these same details that are not in the BoM.
Rick B. stated, “Bruce claimed their are Hundreds of things taught in the BoM that help clarify whats taught in the Bible.”
I still waiting for your source or quote on this one Rick B.
The problem you keep bringing up about the following, “You never showed me from Scripture where Jesus was once a man who became a God. You never showed me where God the Father is married. You guys claim we can become Gods our-self one day, where does it say in the Bible we will be Gods and have our own planet. In light of us becoming Gods, how do you reconcile the fact that God the father said, there are no gods formed before Him and none will be formed after Him,
well Rick B. I did answer that and my answer is still the same, none of that is in the Bible. Why do you continue to ask a question I already answered? So again, one more time, it’s not in the Bible.
Helen/Louis 🙂
Helen,
Here is something for you, on the issue of eternal marraige. I said you cannot give me in depth teachings to Mormon doctrine in the Bible, you can only take one verse and build an entire doctrine out of it, So let me add this.
Jesus and the religious leaders were talking about marrauge in the kingdom of God, this is what was said.
If Jesus told them they are in error of scripture, in other words, they dont have a clue about the word of God, then neither do you. Jesus said no marraige in heaven, so that is one core doctrine of Mormonism that Jesus shot down, while thats not in the Bible and Jesus denys it, then it seems so are all the rest. But I’m still waiting if you think you can show me.