Mormons seem conflicted over whether their own religion is even important enough, if false, to refute. I have to wonder if there is a kind of unconscious, latent atheism or agnosticism or even nihilism in the heart of Mormons who think this way—or at least a bottom-layer heart-orientation away from the importance of truth. Allow me to express this seeming conflict in a caricature:
“Mormonism is the most important religion, institution, and belief system on earth. It is the kingdom of God on earth. We have the oracles of God. We have the plan of salvation to which you should dedicate all your time, money, emotions, and thoughts. We have the vehicle by which your family can be saved, to which you ought to gear your entire family tree. We are the only true Church on earth. We most accurately represent the Lord Jesus Christ.
“But hey, if you decide that we’re not true, then don’t you dare say one critical thing about us, and don’t you dare spend any time trying to bring us down. After all, it’s not that big of a deal. Leave us alone.”
Here is what I’m asking: Do Mormons want to be left alone essentially because they think Mormonism is still worth believing even if it is false?
One of my ex-Mo Christian friends offered up an alternative explanation for the oddity. She expresses Mormon logic this way:
“If it is true, you shouldn’t attack it even if you disagree with it. Even if it isn’t true, well, we don’t have to follow that to its logical conclusion because it IS true! Really! So just don’t attack it.”
Whatever the case, Mormons don’t seem to have absorbed what their own leaders have said about this:
“Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954), vol. 1 pp 188-189)
Personally, I’m not convinced that Mormons take Mormonism’s truth-claims that seriously. They are useful, but not necessarily true. Worth defending, but if false, not worth refuting. They have prioritized sociology over theology. Culture over truth. Church over Jesus. Mores and norms of the community over the glory of God. Feeling-driven beliefs over belief-driven feelings. As someone once said, “The Mormon Church has outgrown the need to be true.” My Mormon friends, Jesus wants you to be encouraged:
“And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
Wow Aaron, you hit on a very important point here. I tend to believe that many Mormons
don’t really care if some of their “unique” doctrines are true or not. They’ve been won into
the Church through an emotional experience and now belong to a community that meets
their emotional needs , so who cares if God was’nt always God etc. The huge emphasis that
Mormon leaders put being a good person and living a moral lifestyle kind of drowns out any
of the things Mormons hear about some of things about God , for instance, that their leaders
have taught or do teach. The fact Mormons are in a system that keeps them so busy tends to
distract them from pausing and considering how important warnings such as in Gal.1:8-9
are for a follower of Jesus. IF Jesus’ warning in Matt.24:11 are relevant for mankind today
then who are those today claiming to be a prophet, and had we better not test their
teachings ? 1 Jn.4:1. May the Mormon people find the time to do this soon.
I think there are different “groups” or “subsets” in the LDS church. Depending on the subset a person is in, the question that Aaron posses will have different answers.
Andy Watson tells me about the Mormons he sees everyday in this truck stop up in Utah. He hears them cuss and watches them drink coffee and they bear little resemblance to the polished image that the church puts forth. I guess these are what are termed “Jack Mormons”. They simply don’t care one way or another about anything related to Mormon history, doctrine or practice.
Then there’s another group that I’d term the “social Mormons”. Their focus is on the clubs and activities and if the name Jesus is spoken they think it’s all pretty much the same in all churches but the Mormons have a real good program to be involved in. These folks, like the “Jacks” could care less about temple ceremonies and striving to be a god. They might not even be aware of any of the doctrinal differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
The hard core TBMs certainly aren’t going to ask any questions because they don’t know what questions to ask. They’ve discovered a type of “spirituality” that they think is the real deal but has more to do with Mormon hocus pocus and the manifestation of their own souls than the Spirit of the living God. But it “feels” spiritual.
The Mormons who are really seeking after truth or those who just get burned out on the system, will work their way out of the LDS fold. The information is readily available to them and they are thirsty for answers because they know something isn’t right or perhaps the Mormon system just doesn’t work for them.
When I was on the Fair boards, I meet many people, Men and women who claimed to be hard core TBM. Yet they admited, they Drank, swore, had coffee, lied to enter the temple Etc. And before someone says, well they really were not TBM, They defened the Mormon gospel, so I believed they really were TBM.
That really does not say much about them.
Expanding on what falcon said, there is also a group who are born into Mormonism who have been programmed from birth. Getting up to bear their testimony starting at age three saying ” I know this church is true, so and so is a prophet of God, I love my mom and dad….” always the same words from these little ones. When you grow up hearing these things over and over, hearing criticism of ANYONE who is not LDS, (including FLDS and RLDS) hearing that all Christianity is an abomination before God, All Christendom is apostate because of the great apostasy, hearing that you MUS T not ask questions but follow the prophet no matter what, etc….Is it any wonder people can’t see it for what it is? This group doesn’t know anything different. If you do start asking questions, you are looked at as an apostate, someone they need to distance themselves from. I’ve said before that the worst thing ( in this group) that you can be is a Mormon apostate. The programming runs deep. Anyone that questions the church and it’s leaders are the bad guys. As a Mormon, it never crossed my mind that people who questioned may actually be the ones telling the truth. After all, the prophet could not ever lead us astray. God wouldn’t let him right?
Mike R, as someone who was “convert” to the church, I can tell you they don’t look at the warnings in Word, because they are not taught the Word, period. I know if I would gave had any knowledge of the Word at all, I would not have ocme near Morominsim with a ten foot pole. Kate, as a member all of your life, was the Bible even taught to you?
I’m convinced that if you tell people the basic tenets of Mormonism they won’t, as Sandi B. says, go near it with a ten foot pole. That’s why the internet is not a real good thing for Mormonism. I know this is hard for people brought-up and brainwashed in the religion to accept, but Mormonism appears to be a bad joke to those on the outside. That’s why it’s critical for the Mormon missionaries to imply that Mormons believe the same as Christians. The whole idea is to get people into the LDS church, not to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.
When I witness to someone, I don’t much care what church they end-up in as long as it’s a Bible believing church that takes the Word of God seriously. The point is that they come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, get born again and walk in the Spirit.
Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Mormonism is a false religion that not only rejects the God of the Bible but teaches men that if they follow a prescribed path, the Mormon church can provide them with the outcome of becoming gods.
All a person really has to do is tell someone the method that Joseph Smith supposedly used to translate some golden plates he found in the ground and they’ll be cult-proofed.
Sandi B , I understand what you’re saying about Mormons not looking into the Word
of God. That’s so sad , and I might add that it’s also a false prophet’s dream ! I guess it’s
our mission to help them see how vital it is to be a Berean — Acts 17:11.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I found some information in this article quite interesting and it gets to the heart of the matter being discussed here which is basically what do Mormons do when they have questions regarding the religion?
It’s about an openly gay man who was recently appointed to an LDS church leadership position out in San Fransisco. Now my guess is that this gay man probably had and has many questions about his Mormon religion. I found a couple of quotes from the article interesting.
“There is, in fact, no consensus Mormon view on homosexuality. While most Mormons view homosexual sexual activity as a sin, Church leaders have expressed divergent perspectives on LGBT issues, ranging from condemnatory and derisive to ameliorative and compassionate.”
“One of the most heartening things is the straight people—people I don’t even know, from across the country—who have written me to say, ‘My wife and I have been praying for greater understanding and light on LGBT issues in the Church for years. This issue has been tearing us up. But hearing about your call strengthened our testimonies both of the Church and of our Savior.’”
A response by a reader was:
“The capacity for change is, of course, admirable. But when an organization changes without admitting culpability, error, or even a lapse in judgement it looks more like George Orwell’s book 1984, where inconvenient events are quickly sanitized and removed from the collective memory.
If we are really witnessing the latest change in church doctrine, and the abandonment of more than a century of anti-Gay rhetoric, we can expect the church will follow the same process that’s served them so well before. Denials, re-writing history, new talking points, etc. And all with a happy face and a “what are you talking about?” response whenever the church’s history toward Gays is brought up.”
http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/5013/openly_gay_mormon_appointed_to_lds_church_leadership_position/
cont:
Another responder to the article wrote regarding criticism of the church on this matter:
“The LDS Church is maturing, and rather than be aggravated for the lateness of the maturation, I would rather celebrate the maturation. You seem more personally offended than you really have a right to be.”
As to my gay LDS Brothers and Sisters, I am glad that this happened. One day we can hope that gay marriages and sealings are allowed, but until then this is a step forward.
I have faith in the LDS Church, but I have never considered it infallible. Why would anyone seek to do so?”
I find that last quote regarding LDS church infallibility quite interesting. Isn’t that the point of the LDS church and its apostles and prophets? You’re not suppose to question the Church because the leaders are hearing directly from God and would never lead the faithful astray? They can also change their minds on fundamental doctrine and it’s viewed as progressive.
Another poster addressing what was written attacking the author of another post:
“As an active and progressive member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints it saddens me to admit that my faith is guilty of what DA explains above.
I would like more orthodox members of my faith to try and understand that mistakes have been made in our history and that the “squeaky clean” reputation they believe the Church holds is actually a facade and cause for many critics of our faith to see our Church as a white sepulchre.
I would openly welcome confessions of guilt from Salt Lake City with regard to changing policies.”
There seems to be some agitation coming from some sectors of the LDS community. My guess is that most of these folks don’t hang around very long once the questioning starts.
Terrific article Aaron.
My view: that Mormons don’t care one way or the other, for the same reason many (at least in this country) don’t care. They’re too comfortable.
Ya gotta face it: many people who have turned to Jesus are the same ones who turned to him in His day… the losers. The ones that have tried this life out, and found out that it sucks. The ones who know in their heart of hearts that they’ve tried, and they can’t be good enough for even themselves, much less the people they love… and they’ve become broken enough that they really want to know the answers, whatever they are.
I think you’re right that Mormonism doesn’t need to be true anymore. It’s a security blanket for the ones who don’t want to have their hearts looked at, their inner lives examined, and bear the piercing of “you are wrong, I am right” that Jesus has to offer. But I still hope for those I love and witness to that God will push them to a place where they care
Sandi B,
When I was a kid we would have a few versus from the Bible during lessons in Primary, Sunday School and Young Women’s. I don’t remember using the Bible as much as we used the BoM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. As an Adult we would study the Bible for a year then the BoM for a year, then the D&C and Pearl of Great Price for a year. Mormons don’t learn the Bible the way Christians do. They don’t let the Bible speak for itself, instead they use the LDS KJV that has chapter headings and footnotes so it basically tells you the LDS teachings of those scriptures. They are nothing like the Christian version. So the answer to your question is yes and no. We did use the Bible, but we didn’t really learn the Bible. We learned the LDS teachings of the Bible, I never thought to question why the actual scripture seemed to contradict what was taught. I didn’t trust the Bible because I’d been taught that it wasn’t reliable. In fact just today my mom reminded me how those Catholic Monks copied it and who knows what they left out. I’m serious, this just happened. Programming runs deep! We had a little bit of a discussion and I did tell her that the bottom line is, we believe in different Gods. She wanted to know how and I told her that the Bible teaches God became man and Joseph Smith says that man became God. Jesus is God incarnate and the Mormon Jesus is her spirit brother. I will let that sink in for awhile. 🙂
Aaron, Great article. I find your observations insightful and really helpful in understanding why Mormons are difficult to pin down on what separates Christians from Mormons. I have been discussing on a blog thread on a blog called “Strange Herring” with Mormons (some of whom I recognize from their posts here). It seems that Mormons want to “throw stones” at the creeds and Christians, but when confronted with their own inconsistencies and errors they obsfucate with words cleverly designed to imply agreement, and when that doesn’t work, then they run to “you’re a bigot” or “you don’t define what is Christian” and then seek to get everyone to agree that we’re all Christians – Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, etc – we just see things a little differently. In other words, once they understand you’re not going to be persuaded they embark on the facade that “hey we’re Christians, just like you – we won’t say you’re not Christians and you better not say we’re not.” Modern day Mormons seem to have re-written their history and want to abandon the entire teaching (in the BOM) that Christian Churches are false and our creeds are an abomination. I think you are insightful that they don’t want to defend their beliefs and teachings – and perhaps the reason is they realize a lot of them cannot really be defended and they don’t think it’s important to seek the truth. Perhaps it is latent atheism or agnosticism – that’s where many ex-Mormons, those who don’t turn to the Savior, end up.
cont.
Now what is a “more orthodox member of the faith”?
Someone help me out with this, please. God speaks to the apostles and prophets of the SLC LDS church, right? When these dudes speak, the questioning stops, right? So what’s a “more orthodox member of the faith”? Aren’t all members”orthodox”. They’ve been told what to think, believe and do….period; end of discussion. Stand at attention and march……hup…..hup….hup….hup!
The apostles and prophets will tell the members to jump and all the member needs to inquire about is “how high oh worshipful master”.
John Dehlin, when he was interviewing Grant Palmer for Mormon Stories, asked why Grant didn’t just go and join another church after he had been disfellowshipped? Grant responded that there was a bit of the reformer in him and he loved the LDS people. Grant should know better.
John Dehlin carried on for quite a long time but I often wondered how long he could stay in the LDS church knowing what he knew and asking the questions he was asking. I recently saw a posting on another site that John had left the LDS church. No surprise there.
I can see why Mormons don’t question. It’s like peeling the skin off of an onion. It does make you cry and with each peeling more is revealed.
Better to remain dumb especially if you can’t remain silent.
So here’s the question.
“Do Mormons want to be left alone essentially because they think Mormonism is still worth believing even if it is false?”
First I would ask what is meant by “left alone”? I take it that means don’t bother me with the facts and evidence or anything that is controversial like a gay man in a leadership position in the LDS church, because I’m not interested in thinking.
Secondly I’d ask what does “still worth believing” mean? Does that mean that the person simply likes the Mormon culture and the people and that the church does a lot of good and that’s what they have “faith” in?
If a Mormon learns that the god of Mormonism isn’t the God of Christianity and if they have any integrity at all, I don’t know how they could continue to walk into an LDS church. I certainly don’t know how they could go into a Mormon temple and participate in the rituals knowing the occult nature and Free Masonry connection.
Personally, I have a rule that I don’t support what I don’t believe in.
Kate,
Your comment about your mother repeating the Mormon slogan that basically says that the Bible can’t be trusted because of the rather poor job of copying the text by Catholic monks reflects an attitude in the LDS religion not to ask any questions. That particular Mormon mantra is so easy to debunk but a faithful Mormon doesn’t even think to look into the matter. They accept what they are told. I don’t know if it’s a cult mentality not to question or it’s simply a lack of curiosity but I do know that once a Mormon does start to question the trickle becomes an eventual torrent.
Falcon muses, “First I would ask what is meant by “left alone”?
LOL, Left alone, sounds like a Christian Book dealing with those who were not the chosen and got “left alone” after some so called rapture that no one yet has shown where that word exists in the Bible.
Then the most remarkable remark I have ever seen by a OC (orthodox christian).
“Personally, I have a rule that I don’t support what I don’t believe in.”
Well when you rely on “holy discernment” I can maybe understand a little bit of this kind of strange mentality. Smiling 🙂
So here we have a man, who believes every “against Mormons” book that comes down the pike, yet when asked for verification, “Joseph Smith’s seer rock, was place on one of the temple alters” he can’t seem to find the reference we can all turn too for validating. Yet, if some one was to prove that this is a made up story, what happens, total silence.
You guys are all so funny! I come here for comic relief… In this thread, I have now learned what type of Mormon I am, one that feels comfortable with what he believes, confident that he’s living a good life, concerned for others who spend their time trying to define what others are.
Yes, Mormons do think that the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is taught within the walls of our church, and is taught in many other places as well, is important.
As the sole Mormon poster on this thread so far, please be gentle. For someone who has never been taught the Word, who must be a Jack Mormon, who has been programmed from a young age, and who really wants the best for his family but not for others, please, your comments towards me may make me even more fragile. Cheers to my fellow Christians!
reggie,
“Yes, Mormons do think that the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is taught within the walls of our church, and is taught in many other places as well, is important.”
Can you tell us more about your gospel and why you think it’s important? If you really do care for your fellow Christians, teach us your gospel. Instead of throwing out an inane comment, show us where we are wrong. You say you come here for comic relief, I say it’s more than that. As a Mormon, I would NEVER have accessed this site. I’m curious, are you questioning Mormonism?
Haha… I must be a different class of Mormon! I have questioned Mormonism as much as I questioned my Catholic upbringing. Unlike many people in religion, I’m not a lemming. Sorry to disappoint you.
I’m also not here to teach anyone, or to tell anyone that they are wrong. I enjoy hearing what people think about all religions, and prefer perspectives from those outside of the walls of the actual religion. Some people have great insight, while others just make me laugh… This thread has made me laugh.
You already “know” what Mormons believe, so do you really need me to tell you? I can refer you to some great reading if you need more information on what “my” gospel is.
Thanks my fellow Christian!
Reggie, welcome. As far as this thread is concerned, I have shared my perceptions
of most Mormons that I’ve come in contact with either personally or thru the media .
I assure you that I’m here because I feel that Mormon leaders ( not you) are some of
the false prophets that Jesus spoke of — Matt.7:15. By saying “false” prophets I’m not
saying that Mormon leaders live immoral lives , rather they have taught inaccurate on
several vital issues , namely how a person can receive eternal life and also on who God
is etc. You mentioned that Mormonism teaches the gospel and that it is taught in many
other places also. Where would those other places be ? Care to share? Thanks.
Reggie,
First off, you said thanks Fellow Christians. Sorry, but your not a christain, You have a false gospel, and do not follow the true Jesus. read Gal 1:8-9
Reggie said
Well according to many Mormons, we really dont know what they believe, yet at the same time they wont tell us what they reallly belive or why were wrong.
Reggie said
This tells me you really dont care about us or even know the Bible or what your church teachs.
The Bible tells us to give every man an answer, and to go unto all the world and share the Gospel. Also your BoM, JS and many of your church leaders were not afraid to tell us we were wrong, our teachings and what we believe is from hell and our church is of the devil.
Plus it is YOUR PROPHETS and LEADERS that say, Tell us if we are wrong, where, and how. We do that and then LDS cry about it. Reggeie, I dont believe you really know Jesus and have no real love of Jesus by what yuou say and do or dont do.
I respect your belief that Mormon prophets are false. I believe there are other false prophets out there as well…
Regarding your question about where the Gospel is taught… I see it taught all over! When I see a mother teaching their child about honesty, when I see a man serve his neighbor, when I see a public servant put his safety on the line to help someone in peril, when I see a child submit to their parent, when I see a church goer donate a tithe. I examples of Christ and his teachings all over the place. Of course, I believe the pinnacle of the gospel is the atonement of Jesus Christ, and I see that taught in many places as well.
Thanks for the friendly discussion… My experience on this website in the past has not been nearly this cordial! Cheers my Christian friends!
Ah… I spoke too soon. Rick B’s comments are much more like what I have experienced in the past. Haha. Sharp, critical, telling me what I am and what I believe. Thanks for the insights Rick B!
Oh, and I am Christian… Just for the record. However, you are entitled to your opinion. I’ll pray for you (I think that is what I’ve read before on this website).
Falcon, in re your “peeling an onion” comment:
One analogy that I use with missionaries is the “scab” analogy (sorry if this is a little earthy). We all know what it’s like to have a scab: as the wound heals, it itches and begins to flake and (at least if you’re a boy) you pick at it. Underneath is nice pink skin. As a little boy, there was one time when I was a little aggressive, and not only did it hurt and bleed, but got infected, and the more it was irritated, the worse it got. Difficulties in faith (LDS or creedal Christian) are like that: you have a problem, it “itches” and you pick at it. I’ve told the missionaries is that when I pick at many problem (the problem of evil, the Flood, the resurrection, NT textual criticism, etc.), I find “pink skin” underneath: a solution, or at least a better way of framing the problem. When I do the same for LDS problems (BoM anachronisms or translation problems, LDS history, nature of ongoing revelation, etc.) the opposite almost invariably occurs: solving one problem leads to 10 more, and what approaches are recommended by the elders (or FARM/FAIR or even Sunstone) tend to make other previously resolved problems resurface. So far, the elders seem to be perplexed by the results. Invariably, testimonies are borne, prayers said, etc., but I think they’re confused that I seem open and yet don’t “have a testimony.” I’ve been an “investigator” for a couple years now, and I often tell the missionaries that I would be baptized tomorrow if it weren’t for the BoM/PoGP/D&C and Joseph Smith. A little nervous laughter results, and we part till next time.
So reggie, just curious, you say you had a Catholic up bringing and I’m wondering if you are a convert to Mormonism or just someone who defends it? If a convert, did you study all Mormon history and doctrines before converting? I’m just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from. I was born and raised LDS, and I was clueless to Mormonisms teaching’s, especially past teachings and history. How do you feel about the LDS church only teaching what is “faith promoting?”
Reggie, If you think I am being mean for telling the truth, then I sugest you go back and read both the Bible, and things your past leaders have said.
The apostle Paul said if you dont love the Lord you will be accursed, Jude, wow read that book. Jesus said people are fools and Blind, He even made a whip of cords and beat people.
Your prophets have said that what I belive is teachings from Hell, and that I am wrong.
Plus I love how YOUR PROPHETS tell me, If we the (LDS) are wrong, please show us where and how. Then when we do that, you guys cry and tell us were being mean, cruel and hatefilled. Why is that? Then I am willing to bet money, You and all the other LDS that come here and say were being mean, Never and I mean Never go to boards like Fair, or the Mormon blog called (The Mormon Hater Show), Which has been mentioned here before, and the (Founder) did post here for a while. These places are fill with the most vile hatefilled speech from mormons, Yet you guys never go their and rebuke the LDS for what they say about us.
Let me guess, you guys will reply with, My time here on earth is not to seek out LDS who talk vile hate speech and call out my church members.
Sadly you can say something to me, but not your own church members.
Kate, I’m sorry, I don’t follow your question regarding “only teaching faith promoting”.
I was born catholic, raised baptist, converted Mormon at the age of 21. I studied religions of all types, and The LDS church was the one that I personally felt taught the most consistent truths. I fully understand that my opinion is not a popular one on this site, but I defend my ore
Christian beliefs, and often times I defend other religions that get criticized unnecessarily. I love these websites, because I hear so many crazy things. If you guys know of any Mormon websites that openly criticize a specific religion, or any other websites that you all know of that criticize other religions… I love reading people’s perpspectives, defending where appropriate, agreeing when necessary, and laughing when possible.
This Rick B guy seems so angry. Haha… I don’t think you’re mean, just an angry person. Haha!
reggie,
“if you guys know of any Mormon websites that openly criticize a specific religion.
You’re kidding right? Mormonism criticizes other religions every time they cite the first vision. This mocking and criticizing Christianity is even done in their temples. It’s true that Mormon leaders of the past openly spoke out against ALL religions but more recent leaders are hush, hush about it. This is deceiving. Mormon missionaries go out into the world and are now told to say that men changed, instead of teaching the great apostasy and that all creeds and religions are an abomination to the Lord. Deceiving potential converts with Christian sounding words. These websites are here to teach the truth about Mormonism but also to teach the truth about Christianity.
“The LDS church was the one that I personally felt taught the most consistent truths.”
Mormonism is anything but consistent. How do you explain the 9 versions of the first vision, the changing of who God is? Polygamy? Blacks holding the priesthood? Blood atonement? Changing of temple rituals and endowment ceremony? Changing of temple garments? Crosses oops no crosses? Where are the consistencies in Mormonism?
I know rick personally.
I’ve had lunch with rick and his family.
rick is not angry.
rick is………. INTENSE………..and he doesn’t suffer fools lightly. He knows Mormonism having studied it diligently and interacted extensively face-to-face with Mormon missionaries and on various on-line sites with Mormons.
So I get a kick out of some of these haughty Mormons who show-up here, intimating that the Christian posters are a joke and don’t know anything about Mormonism.
But as these HMs begin posting it becomes obvious that they are limited in their knowledge of their own religion.
We even have a bunch of ex-Mormons posting here who have lived in the culture and are able to make observations regarding the everyday living in Mormonism. The HMs don’t know what to do with them except do the typical hit that Mormons give to the ex’es.
But I see the taunting for what it is. Just a lot of false bravado.
Wonderful insights, Setfree & Kate!
Dear Reggie,
Welcome to the forum. We are happy to have you here. There are other LDS participants here, such as Helen. Many of us get along well with Helen, and I trust we will enjoy your company as well. Thanks.
In your introduction, you’ve made an insightful comment. You’ve described yourself as a person who is “confident that he’s living a good life.” To help me better understand, perhaps you’d like to explain the basis for this confidence?
So reggie,
The best place to start is to tell us who you believe God is. You don’t have to shuffle and jive and make some esoteric, philosophical meanderings. Just give it to us straight.
Do you believe that God is one of millions or billions of gods who were once sinful men but through obedience to the Mormon gospel, transformed themselves into gods? Does your god live on or near the planet Kolob with his many goddess wives with whom he has some form of reproductive union in order to produce spirit offspring who will be born on earth and be given the opportunity to become gods themselves?
Now Mormons just hate this laying bare of their basic belief regarding the Mormon god(s). What I’ve found is that Mormons just don’t like us to say it…….this business of who they believe god is. So I ask them to set me straight and they can’t. They just fuss about and say we’re mocking and making fun of their beliefs and yet they never tell me what I’ve presented is wrong. Then we’re told we’re persecuting them. But they never get down to the nitty gritty and tell us if what we’ve said is false.
Mormons are stuck with a “prophet” who changed his story of the little grove vision at least eight times. They are also stuck with having to explain Joseph Smith’s method of “interpreting” the golden plates he said he found. The picture painted by the LDS church doesn’t match reality.
Besides all of this it’s been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the BoM is historically, linguistically, scientifically and archeologically false. The feeling doesn’t match the reality.
So what’s a Mormon to do when they discover it’s all false and the feeling isn’t enough to over-come the evidence?
Helen,
I don’t know if falcon saw your post or not, but here are your references:
WilfordWoodruff, as new president of the church in 1888, dedicated the Manti, Utah temple. While there, Woodruff had the stone upon the alter:
“Before leaving I Consecrated upon the Altar the seers Stone that JosephSmith found by Revelation some 30 feet under the Earth [and] Carried By him throughlife” (Wilford Woodruff’s journal, 18 May, 1888)
JosephFielding Smith confirmed that the seer stone is in the possession of the Mormonchurch:
“The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altarin the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of,however, was the SEER STONE which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith inearly days. This seer stone is NOW in the possession of the Church.”
(Doctrines of Salvation,Vol. 3, p. 225)
So you see, what falcon said was true. Spoken about by your Mormon leaders. Maybe you should research before you post. Just a suggestion.
Hello Helen – Believing in the Rapture, or a secret evacuation of the earth of Christians accomplished by God is not an essential Christian belief. I believe Jesus will return with a trumpet, we will fall before Him in worship, and that will be the end! Trumpets are not often blown in secret – they are to announce the triumphant return of the King! I do not believe in a secret Rapture or vanishing. We will meet Christ in the air and immediately return to earth following Christ in His triumph. The Lord Jesus Christ is the true and only God of this world – on that day everyone will recognize this.
Reggie – Glad you posted here. Hopefully you will keep an open mind towards the beliefs of Christians and consider thoughtfully what Christ, God incarnate, has accomplished for us on the cross. Read the Scriptures (Old Testament and New) and continue to question. Read some of what Martin Luther wrote – his commentary on Galatians is great.
Reggie, thanks for your reply. To be honest I’m a little perplexed by your comment
on the gospel of Jesus . You make it sound like others have the gospel also, yet I read
differently from Mormon prophets and apostles. True christians, the True Church , and
the true Gospel are all what Mormonism advertises to the world. This would place any
other christians , any other Churches , and any other gospel in a different category .
Does not the Book of Mormon teach there are two Churches only ? Especially enlightening
is how Mormon leaders have understood that teaching .
I agree with what you said about the fact that there are other false prophets around
today. I would direct your attention to the person of Jesus Christ because what we all need
is not another prophet, what we all need is a Savior ( who just happens to be THE prophet . )
There may always be someone who posts here that says something that you find funny, but
please I hope you can understand that everyone needs to take Jesus’ warning in Matt.7:15 ;
24:11 very very seriously . Take time to peruse the articles offered by this ministry. Thanks.
Thanks Kate.
No I didn’t read Helen’s post. You’re right, a little research would have yielded an answer for her but we’re dealing with someone who mainly repeats LDS happy talk and awaits a burning in the bosom as proof of her personal revelations. Evidence always loses out when emotions are in play.
Here’s a little more on Joseph Smith’s magic rock and the Manti Temple:
“One item mentioned by President Woodruff about the private dedicatory services at Manti is of more than passing interest. ‘Before leaving,’ he writes, ‘I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth (ground), and carried by him through life.’ This is the very Seer stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the Book of Mormon the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra, for Mr. Clark chase….. In the dedicatory prayer delivered May 21st, 1888, by Apostle Lorenzo Snow at the Manti Temple these words were spoken: ‘Wilt Thou accept and bless these sacred altars which have been erected by the offerings of Thy devoted Saints?’ Undoubtedly, ‘these sacred altars’ were accepted by God, and if President Wilford Woodruff, a true Prophet of God, consecrated Joseph Smith’s Seer Stone upon an altar, then it (the Seer Stone) was obviously accepted by the Most High-in the Manti Temple.”
(Temple Manifestations: Heavenly Manifestations in Temples built by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints,1836-1930 by Joseph Heineman)
So the Mormon god accepted Joseph Smith’s Seer Stone as it laid upon the altar at the Manti temple. Do Mormons worship this magic rock?
Should a person continue believing something when they know it to be false? Mormonism is false. Why continue believing it!
Tommeltj said “I’ve been an “investigator” for a couple years now, and I often tell the missionaries that I would be baptized tomorrow if it weren’t for the BoM/PoGP/D&C and Joseph Smith. A little nervous laughter results, and we part till next time.”
LOL, thanks for that 🙂
Loved your analogy too
I believe that we went through this topic about a year ago. Yes, there are LDS members who make those kind of statements. However, from my expereince there are also Traditional Christian who make the same kind of statements. They couldn’t care less if what they believe is true or not, they are happy with it and wont change even if they found the truth.
I don’t see what the big deal is about it happening in the LDS church when it happens everywhere else and is part of human nature.
Falcon stated, “I understand that when the Mormon temple was dedicated in Manti that Joseph Smiths magic rock was placed on the altar.”
The real facts reveal: “Before leaving I Consecrated upon the Altar the seers Stone that JosephSmith found by Revelation some 30 feet under the Earth [and] Carried By him throughlife” (Wilford Woodruff’s journal, 18 May, 1888)
I guess there are those who don’t understand what a Consecration is. Yes it was placed on the Alter for a reason, but not part of the dedication as some here referenced. May be a mute point, but I just love details like most women do. If you get the time Kate, look up what happens when someone consecrates something to the Lord God. Did you ever experience the Priesthood Members when the consecrated oil for blessing the sick. So for someone to think this was part of the dedication is just plain out to lunch. 🙂
Bingo, another assumed assumption: “So the Mormon god accepted Joseph Smith’s Seer Stone as it laid upon the altar at the Manti temple. Do Mormons worship this magic rock?”
So my friend, we consecrated many things, here are a few, but since you’re such a expert on Mormonism I’m sure this is just a rehash. We consecrate oil (for healing the sick), our time, our talents and everything we consider the Lord blesses us with or will bless us with.
You seem to assume consecration is the same as worshiping that particular object or action. The word “consecration” literally means “to associate with the sacred”. (dictionary if you’re interested). 🙂
4fivesolas , thanks for your testimony of the last days and how you will meet Christ in the air.
Christian book stores are doing a huge amount of volume in sells strictly pushing the rapture doctrine , I would bet that 70-80 percent of Christians believe in some kind of Rapture. It is orthodox teaching that obviously forms a major part of todays teaching and christian expectations concerning the chosen. Hoax or Hope?
Book of Mormon hoax or hope?
Helen said
Helen, you seriously need to grow up, You asked a question about the rapture and I already TOLD YOU, I will not say anything about it, and I told you why I would not. By you saying what you said implies we are dodging your question when in fact I told you I would not answer it and stated why I would not. This shows you are being dectiful and manipulating the story.
Reggie,
First off I see you dont care to answer my question about how you wont go to LDS sites and rebuke them for their vile actions. Then If you missed my question in other topics, I have said to LDS where is the Love of Christ from you guys? LDS tend to dodge questions, accuse us of being mis-informed, yet they wont share the facts with us, were accused of twisting the facts, yet LDS wont share with us.
Now you said you found more truth in the LDS scriptures, yet I see you did not tell us what this truth is/was. I dont see you sharing the truth with us, by not sharing you show you dont have the love of Christ in you.
The Bible says, He who knows to do good, but does not do it is in sin.
The Bible also tells us, not to simply say to someone in need, Be warm and filled, But ton actualy do something. If you feel we are in need of truth but dont share it with us, then you are both in sin, lacking the love of Christ and seriously dont know the scripture.
Rick B. here is some truth I wish to share with you. Christ promises if you will read the book of Mormon, study it, ponder upon its words and sincerely want know if it’s true and ask humbly with a deep desire to have it revealed unto you, then that promise will be fulfilled in a way you can not deny.
But then again, even though we love you and want you to experience what we have, it still takes Faith and a small desire to try it for your self, James 1:5 is not about only wisdom, but if wisdom leads you to understanding the mysteries of God, then God is more then willing to assist you with love, light and knowledge from on high.
Helen,
Here is the Problems.
1. If we do read and sincerly pray and I have, and we (we being all the people that have read and prayed) get and answer that the BoM is false. They you (The LDS ) put it on us and say, well you were not really sincere or did not really read and pray.
2. What about everyone who did read and pray, but them looked at the evidence and that evidence does not exist and contrdicts it’s self.
3. The Bible does not tell us to pray about truth, it tells us as does the BoM to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES. In the Gospel of John, it says, these things were written that we may know this is true.
Then when you quotye James saying pray for wisdom, you guys always for get to add this,
I love how LDS never quote this part from James, So it seems not all wisdom comes from God, How do you know the wisdom you seem to have is not from the Devil? O-yea, you know it’s not because you prayed about it right?
Lets see, the Bible tells us that satan can come as an angel of light and decive, Yet you know that it was not satan deciving you, and you prayed for wisdom, yet you know that wisdom is not the wisdom of the Devil, because you prayed about it. Ok, you have zero evidence, and you believe your correct despite the fact that satan can and does lie and decive, simply because you prayed about it. But again, the Bible never says, Pray for truth, it says, Test the spirits and search the scriptures. Right? Yes it does, so why not try that.
RickB,
Let’s look at the verse you pulled out in full context.
James 3:13
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
This discusses 2 types of wisdom, one from man (v15) which is “earthly, sensual, devilish” and one from heaven (or above; v17) which is “is first pure, then peaceable, gentle…”
The one from man entreats one to be argumentative and envying (v14 and v16) while the one from heaven entreats on to be peaceable, gentle, etc (v17-18). When discussing James 1:5 and Moroni 10:3-5 we are discussing the second found in verse 17.
Helen Gets Progressive!
Have you all noticed Helen’s progression on the Magic Rock of Manti topic?
First it didn’t happen at all and than through a series of “revelations” she “evolves” to where we Christians aren’t really understanding what “consecration” means.
Helen you have “zero” and I mean “zero” credibility. You’re so blind you can’t even see the total foolishness of your constantly changing stance on a topic.
This is so Mormon.
It’s a type of thinking that denies something ever happened. Then maybe it did happen but it doesn’t mean what it appears to mean.
It’s the same with every topic that’s presented here Helen.
Over the years we’ve had countless Mormons come on this blog to straighten all of us Christians out regarding Mormonism. It’s the same strategy. Deny something happened or has been taught by the LDS church. Then, “Yea, maybe it happened, was taught but it doesn’t really mean XYZ”. Then well maybe it was taught, the guy meant it, but it’s just his opinion.
Folks just see what it takes to maintain belief in a hoax. It’s easier to deny, lie, obfuscate and cloud an issue than face the fact that Mormonism is a myth, a hoax, a sham and a pathway to eternal destruction.
All we can do is pray that the light of understanding will illuminate the minds of those Mormons caught in darkness.
So Helen gives us the formula for believing the BoM and then tells us that “Christ” promises us to know its truthfulness.
Please provide a reference for where Jesus tells us this. Rick’s already taken apart the wisdom verse from James that Mormons misuse so I won’t go there.
Helen who is this “Christ” that promises to lead a person to know the BoM is true? Is this the Mormon Christ? It certainly isn’t the Christ who reveals Himself in the Bible. In fact the Mormon “Christ” is the anti-Christ that we are warned not to follow.
This is really the crux of the entire matter. Mormons have given themselves over to the spirit of the anti-Christ who is more than willing to whisper audible messages in their ears and provide them with marvelous, wonderful emotional feelings that they seek after thinking it’s confirmation of truth.
It pretty obvious that the “Jesus” of Mormonism, as past Mormon “prophet” GBH stated, is not the Jesus of Christianity.
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'” (June 20, 1998, .
So the choice is pretty plain.
Mormons can choose to believe in the Jesus revealed in God’s Word the Bible or they can believe in the Jesus that Joseph Smith wrote about in the BoM or they can believe in what Smith then latter changed to another Jesus in the King Follett Discourse.
So the choice is clear.
Helen,
You said:
“So here we have a man, who believes every “against Mormons” book that comes down the pike, yet when asked for verification, “Joseph Smith’s seer rock, was place on one of the temple alters” he can’t seem to find the reference we can all turn too for validating. Yet, if some one was to prove that this is a made up story, what happens, total silence.”
You denied that Joseph Smith’s seer rock was placed on one of the temple alters. No one even mentioned consecration! Who cares why the rock was put on the alter? You claimed it was a made up story and falcon was avoiding answering you. I guessed correctly that he he hadn’t seen your post, so I responded with references. I know what consecration means. Consecration and dedication of the temple are not what the discussion was about. Nice try with the change of subject. I don’t think I’ll let it slide. You claimed something and I showed you where you were wrong.
I just love how Mormons claim that “against Mormons” books or information is used. Where in the quotes that I posted about the seer rock was anything “against Mormons?” The information that I have studied over the past several years has come directly from LDS church publications and LDS books? How are any of those “against Mormon” books? The church hangs itself with it’s own information!
Laughing and smiling so hard that I must stop so as too be able to respond to poor old Falcon, who now not only has the “Holy Discernment infused within him” but is a “seer” on top of that.
I asked a simple question, “where is the reference” I never stated it never happened. So when we actually find someone who did take the time we find out that this particular rock was consecrated upon the alter of the temple.
You see a “seer” is suppose to take a simple request, “someone ask a question”, the question is asking for a reference and the seer is able to discern that this was not the question at all, but something a lot more sinister.
“Egads, I can see (seer) that this person really means this and not that. I can see she is a progressive and tricks us into learning new things about the difference between dedication and consecrations. This is sooooooo mormon, yikes. ” Even though she never said it didn’t happen, we all know that she really just wanted to talk about consecrations, just soooooooo mormon. LOL there Falcon, you’re the real thing, A Prophet, A seer, and a “Holy Discerner”. 🙂
Kate, it would be nice for those who decide to quote too quote in context like you eventually did for our Falcon friend. He claimed as part of the sentence it was part of the dedication of the temple, I asked for a reference and he failed miserably too back it up. You came along and gave us the true version of a event that after the Dedication and before leaving the temple, the Sacred Rock was consecrated on the alter, but not left on the alter. You may feel I’m picking on poor Falcon, but it would be a real blessing to all if he could at least get it right and give us a full and complete quote so that our visitors and guest can see exactly why the sacred rock was placed on the Alter of God.
Yes the story that Falcon quoted was made up and left out the details, details can make or break good journalism and reporting, also it helps too show that someone is either quoting history or doing the revisionist dance, hence Falcon the dancer.
Peace.