In a Note I recently wrote for my Facebook Page Mormon & LDS Facts, I detail what I’ve called “The deception and fall of Mormon Apostle Albert Carrington.” The Note can be found in its entirety here. (Update: This Note was removed by the author and this link is no longer active.)
The following is a brief summary of the Note:
On January 7, 1867 Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal that his fellow “Apostle” Albert Carrington, and Carrington’s wife, had received the ordinance of the Second Anointing, which made their “calling and election sure.” By definition, this special priesthood ordinance (also called the “fulness of the priesthood”) ensures that the recipients are literally ordained to godhood. Those so ordained are ‘sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise’ and thereby granted the assurance that they are “equal in power, and in might, and in dominion” with God Himself. This is supposedly accomplished by the ‘spirit of revelation’ so candidates (“whose faith and integrity are unquestioned”) are guaranteed their godhood. The Covenant sealed on the foreheads of Parents who have received their Second Anointing also secures for their children the promise that they will not fall, and that they “shall all sit upon thrones as one with the Godhead, as joint Heirs of God with Jesus Christ.”
We are told that this “spirit of revelation” is what guides the Mormon Church, and so these men, these “apostles and prophets,” that give these second anointings are given “the power of discernment” to distinguish good from evil (Moro. 7:12-18), the righteous from the wicked (D&C 101:95), and false spirits from divine (D&C 46:23), and that its more sensitive operation can also make known even the thoughts and intents of the heart of other persons (D&C 33:1). This “gift of discernment,” essential to every member of the Church, also embodies the power to discriminate between right and wrong.
What better person to ordain to godhood than Albert Carrington? Having joined the Church in 1841, he knew the prophet Joseph Smith, embraced polygamy, and was a Counselor to Brigham Young in addition to his ordination to the highest office in the Church, the Holy Apostleship. Unlike “Christendom” as Albert Carrington testified in 1880,“with its almost numberless free schools and its millions of bibles and legions of priests” who “spurned God’s word through the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Carrington knew Mormonism was true, and stated emphatically in that speech:
“I know that I am telling you the truth, as God lives I know it for myself.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, page 168)
Three years later while serving on a mission to England, it would be reported that a maid Carrington had hired to clean the Mission Offices was seen “lying on his body.” During a meeting to address that, and other charges of impropriety, Carrington told the assembled hierarchy of the Church that there was “no criminality on his part,” and never in his life, had he “any connection with any female other than his wives, either at home or abroad” because “the Lord had preserved him free from anything of that kind.” As recorded in the official Minutes, church officials were satisfied with Carrington’s testimony.
But in the fall of 1883, Mormon “Apostle” John W. Taylor received a letter from the irate husband of the same maid, claiming that Carrington had indeed committed adultery with her. Called before his brethren a second time, Carrington admitted that he had lied, and that this maid was not the only one with whom he had broken his covenants. Carrington was cut off from the Church a few days later, “for the crimes of Lewd and Lascivious conduct and adultery.”
In the conclusion of the full Note, I write that Carrington, in his first meeting on charges of impropriety,
“was affirmed in his calling without question, by a vote. There is no mention in the Minutes of any of them petitioning the Lord for guidance, or that they felt it necessary to do so. One would think that this would have been the first thing that they did.”
I also ask the following questions:
“Are we to trust the words of Albert Carrington, that he is telling the truth when he declares that Joseph Smith was a prophet? How can we believe him when he says that ‘I am telling you the truth, as God lives I know it for myself’? And how can we trust those ‘apostles and prophets’–who were so easily deceived by Carrington–with our eternal salvation?”
If Carrington lied to his fellow “prophets, seers and revelators,” and they were powerless to “detect the thoughts and intents of his heart,” are we to believe that these men are what they claim–the very “oracles of God”? If these men who judged Carrington were so easy to deceive, then what does that say about the current “apostles” and “prophets” of the Mormon Church who also claim this same “gift of discernment,” and that they speak for God, and more importantly, as God?
Grindael, I always look forward to your contributions here and this is another informative
article. I think it is yet another example of how the LDS people have been taught by their
leaders to rely on a spiritual witness, an inner conviction that they are in the truth. No
doubt that those assembled in General conference trusted in the testimony of their leaders
of being not only living righteously but also in being accurate in their doctrinal interpretations.
To many times these men have given spiritual counsel that has been seen to be only their ideas .
This is one of the very accusations Mormons have leveled against the religious leaders of who
they call “Christendom ” , and is a major component of the so called apostacy of the early Church
in the first century . There was a case involving another apostle , Richard Lyman , I believe his
name was, in the 1920’s that for 20 years he was secretly committing adultery and yet every
conference faithful LDS , relying on their spiritual witness , sustained him as doing a faithful
job as an apostle. All this because these faithful LDS trust the testimony of their prophet .
Grindael, as you pointed out this whole issue is really disturbing when we see how the Mormons
merely accept the doctrines of their prophets without testing them with the holy scriptures,
Acts.17:11. “follow the prophet” , “follow the prophet ” , ” when the prophet speaks the debate
is over” , these are actual phrases accepted by the Mormon people today . May God help them
to see Jesus’ warning as relevant for today— Matt 7:15; 24:11
Grindael, I noticed in the article on your face book page that it mentions a Mormon
that had received his second annointing in 2002. I can’t remember where but some time
ago I read that this “ordinance” was no longer received today. Evidently it still is .
Any thoughts on this ?
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the feedback. On the Second Anointing, I gave a link, here it is again: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon508.htm
As for the veracity of the claims, I can’t answer that. The person that posted the information, was quite knowledgeable, and he was questioned during the course of the conversation. The readers must decide for themselves.
Do I think personally, that Second Anointings are given today? Yes I do. They are an integral part of Smith’s theology, especially with relation to actually being ordained “kings and priests”, and I don’t see that as being abandoned. I do believe that they have become much more rare and secretive, and I think much more will come out about this in the future, as more and more faithful leave the Church.
In my opinion this isn’t a matter of “if”, it’s just a matter of time. The Book of Mormon hasn’t got a leg to stand on, and as more time goes by, it becomes more and more discredited. When it gets so overwhelming that they have no choice, look for a “revelation” with some sort of explanation as to why there is no evidence of it’s history. The Community of Christ is leaning more towards it being just a sort of ‘visionary’ experience, but that isn’t enough. The fact that the Church has survived polygamy and the reversal of the Priesthood ban, doesn’t seem to phase them, and so they just might go with discounting every statement ever made as opinion, and making up something outrageous to explain it. _johnny
Dear Grindael,
What research you have done. Thank you! You have recounted Albert Carrington’s story with great clarity. I made a few observations while reading of his life:
1. Mr. Carrington is no more “equal in power, and in might, and in dominion” with God than is Mickey Mouse (Isaiah 43:10).
2. One does not become elect through esoteric ceremonies. The elect have had their names written in the Lamb’s Book of Life since the foundation of the world; before they existed. Would you like to know if you are among the elect? If you have received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, abandoning all hope in your own merits to commend you to God, looking to the Cross alone for the forgiveness of sins, you are among the elect.
3. Mr. Carrington believed Christendom had “spurned God’s word” by not accepting Joseph Smith. I believe it is the other way around: Joseph Smith spurned God’s word by not accepting the truth claims of the Bible.
4. Mr. Carrington’s life and loosing battle with sin remind us of the truthfulness of the Bible. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22-25).
Mike,
Richard R. Lyman (grandson of Amasa Lyman) was an interesting case. He was actually practicing polygamy like the fundamentalists, and got caught. What is interesting about Lyman is that in 1954 he was rebaptized, and then died in 1963. Then, his full priesthood blessings were restored posthumously in 1970.
This was the same as in the case of Amasa Lyman, who totally apostatized from the Church, and became the President of the Church of Zion (Godbeites,) but at the urging of his son, Apostle Francis M. Lyman, (father of Richard R. Lyman), he was posthumously re-instated to ALL of his blessings, including his apostleship (all his old “authority and power”) and had the promise of his wives in the Celestial Kingdom by Joseph F. Smith. I wrote an article about his for Coffee, found here: http://blog.mrm.org/2010/03/can-apostates-achieve-the-highest-degree-of-the-celestial-kingdom-after-death/
I’m assuming this was done for Richard Lyman also, since it seems to be a pattern with the Church Hierarchy.(Cronyism).
In the Church today, Mormons want to have it both ways. They say that prophets and apostles are necessary, but they won’t own up to the things that they say. Their leaders will make statements that credit them with revelatory infallibility, yet when you speak to rank and file members of the Church, they constantly make excuses for them. They have created a convenient system of getting out of this dilemma, and this “explanation” by B.H. Roberts for Brigham Young’s Adam God revelation explains it the best I’ve ever seen:
“As a matter of fact the “Mormon” Church does not teach that doctrine. A few men in the “Mormon” Church have held such views, and several of them quite prominent in the councils of the Church, but the Church has made announcement of no such doctrine, nor has the Church propounded it to
the world or accepted it by any article of faith. Here I invoke the principles laid down in the early part of my remarks, viz., that the Church may only rightly be charged with those doctrines which may be adduced from the official documents she herself set forth as the sources of her doctrine, the very revelations of God that she has officially accepted; and from these sources the above may not be proven. Brigham Young and others may have taught that doctrine, but it has never been accepted by the Church as her doctrine, and she is not in any way responsible for it. (B.H. Roberts, July 10, 1921, Deseret News, July 23, 1921).
This is, of course a radical departure from earlier times, and the very teachings of Brigham Young, and others, like this from quote from Samuel R. Richards (then President of the Quorum of the Twelve):
ADAM, THE FATHER AND GOD OF THE HUMAN FAMILY
The above sentiment appeared in Star No. 48, a little to the surprise of some of its readers; and while the sentiment may have appeared BLASPHEMOUS to the ignorant, it has no doubt given rise to some serious reflections with the more candid and comprehensive mind. A few reasonable and scriptural ideas upon this subject may be profitable at the present time. Then ADAM IS REALLY GOD! And why not? If there are Lords many and Gods many, as the scriptures inform us, why should not our FATHER ADAM be one of them?( LDSMS(Millennial Star), vol. XV (December 10, 1853), no. 50, pp. 801-04.)
Adam, of course was taught as a reveltion by Young to be the Father of men’s spirits, and not just a “god”. Even with that editorial, it seems that not all were convinced, so another (third) editorial was published
the next week, which assured readers that,
“[f]acts still remain facts, WHETHER KEPT OR REVEALED.” This time the editor closed with this strong counsel: “It should be borne in mind that these wonderful mysteries, as they are supposed to be, are only mysteries because of the ignorance of men; and when men and women are troubled in spirit over those things which come to light through the PROPER CHANNEL OF INTELLIGENCE, they only betray their weakness, ignorance, and folly.”( LDSMS, vol. XV (December 17, 1853), no. 51, p. 825.)
Roberts, like many others, takes the common consent RULE, and makes it into a crucible for all REVEALED DOCTRINE. “If it wasn’t “passed”, then we don’t own it.” This is classic deception, and notice that Roberts says,
“the Church may only rightly be charged with those doctrines which may be adduced from the official documents she herself set forth as the sources of her doctrine, the very revelations of God that she has officially accepted; and from these sources the above may not be proven.”
Roberts doesn’t claim that Adam-god wasn’t a revelation, and that is important. He claims it is not an “accepted” revelation. (In fact I have a copy of a page out of one of Robert’s notebooks that Ogden Kraut published that has his notes on Adam God, and Roberts was well aware that Young taught it as a revelation from God).
Samuel Richards said it best, “facts are facts”, and the fact is, Young taught it as revelation, and whether it is ACCEPTED or not, makes no difference, because it speaks to his standing as an oracle of God. But it is how they try to worm out of everything.
We are told how necessary the gift of discernment is to Mormonism. One can read the accounts
given in the minutes of these meetings and not come away with anything extraordinary. All we see are men weighing evidence, and then deciding on their own merits. It should have been immediately obvious that Carrington was deceiving them, yet they stuck to their Cronyism, and accepted what he had to say without question. The fact that he was lying on top of Sally Kirkham should have sent up red flags, and they at least should have addressed God on the issue. Unless…they were afraid to. Because if they did, and he “passed”, that would be worse, but not by much considering the claims made by these men.
Where was the Lord’s mouthpiece in all of this? Taylor only said, “I am satisfied with your actions today and your report as I feel assured my councillors will also be.”
Was this not important enough to take to the Lord? Where was the Holy “Ghost”, which they say gives them the power to know the “righteous from the wicked?”
I am working on a new piece about Parley P. Pratt, (which I hope Sharon will post), and a prophecy he gave that according to him will prove the Book of Mormon false. I found that, while doing research for this article. It should come as no surprise then, that on the 5th of October, 1904 Joseph F. Smith said,
“many things were written in [the diaries of the apostles] which if they were to fall into the hands of the enemy might bring trouble upon the church. After the death of the brethren, you cannot tell what may become of their journals.” It was moved and unanimously carried that “the brethren should not write in their journals that which took place in the Council meetings.” (Stan Larson, Diaries of Rudger Clawson, p.xiv)_johnny
Grindael, thanks for the info, I appreciate the time you put in doing the research. I can
only hope that the Mormon people would really test their leaders as to their trustworthiness
in relaying spiritual truth from God . Unfortunately false prophets tend to subtly use fear
tactics to keep their followers in submission to their authority . Mormon leaders remind
their followers that to call into question the prophet’s counsel is akin to questioning God :
” a good way to measure your standing with the Lord is to see how you feel about and act
upon the inspired words of earthly His representative , the prophet. ” [ Ezra T. Benson ] .
That mentality is a recipe for spiritual disaster . In the Church Jesus started it has no place.
May the Mormon people learn that they’ve been detoured by a false prophet. Jesus is waiting
to alleviate them from the submission to religious men who are not reliable to represent Him .
Thanks again Grindael.
What’s interesting about these guys is they come out and do the whole apostle, prophet, or priest-holder razamataze and the faithful just lap it all up. Little do they know that it’s just the old time medicine show applied to religion. There’s nothing like what happens when the recipient of the blessing is gung ho for the treatment and believes it all heart and soul and the purveyor of the blessing believes he’s got the power to perform all measure of miraculous manifestations.
I believe that’s why even the Mormon leadership can’t see through the stories spun by others in the closed-set of leadership. They’re all ripe to be taken in by deception and fraud. It’s the desire to believe that keeps Mormons in the fold even after they know of the serious problems with Joseph Smith, the BoM and the carnival sideshow barkers that serve as prophets.
Christ Jesus made it very clear what is necessary for eternal life and the writers of the NT articulated what (Jesus) said. Both the OT and NT make it clear that false prophets will appear and that their witness and testimony can be obliterated by the truth of the Gospel. Those who are truly born again walk in a manner that He walked, the apostle John wrote.
It would be easy for a Mormon to become cynical about religion when reading accounts presented in the article above. That’s why I’d caution Mormons not to put their trust and confidence in men who have neither the Spirit of God or a testimony of Jesus Christ despite what they proclaim. They neither know our Lord or the pathway to eternal life.
I think the point is that these Mormon prophets and apostles are really suppose to be super spiritual and super in tune with the Mormon god. If these guys are representing what the Mormon god is saying, all I have to say is that the (Mormon god) is one confused deity. The Mormon god is confused, the prophets are confused, the apostles are confused and faithful Mormons are jumping up and down rejoicing about what a tremendous leadership they have.
At every turn these Mormon prophets prove that they have nothing in terms of special spiritual gifts. In fact anyone in the Mormon family could do as well as their prophets have done when it comes to prophesy or articulating a Mormon doctrinal position on just about any topic.
Once the Mormon leadership loses its aura of hyper-spirituality (in the eyes of a rank and file member) the whole deal is over. Why would someone pay homage and a lot of money to a leadership that has proven repeatedly that they are wild waves driven by the wind.
There isn’t anything that a Mormon prophet, apostle or priesthood holder can do for a Mormon within the system that the average Mormon couldn’t do for themselves. Better yet, outside of the system, former Mormons find that they have the freedom to pursue God on their own terms without the encumbrance of a false religious system.
Mormon apostles Carrington and Lyman living in adultery . So what happened to their
priesthood authority ? Did they lose it ? What about those they baptized ? Both of these
men proudly sustained thru the spiritual witness of those who trusted them to be faithful
in their duty . As for Lyman , who rejected God’s new revelation concerning marriage
as revealed by prophet Woodruff in 1890, and thus was living a lifestyle described by
Bruce McConkie as not only adulterous but one which will get a person”damned in Eternity”
because they have ” sold their soul to Satan ” ! Incredible .
The Mormon people deserve to be freed to actually follow Jesus in a complete way , rather
than be detoured by their spiritual leaders into following their alleged guidance from Jesus ,
for the Lord has alerted all LDS about these men :
” Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err…..” [ Micah 3:5 ]
Not only those apostles, what about the hundreds if not thousands of people who lie in their temple interview and get bestowed on them all of the promises and covenants made there?
I, too, was duped into thinking even bishops had that kind of discernment until i myself lied to one of those interviews and saw that no one noticed. And there i was, so “holy” with those white clothes and then i realized that we were nothing but a bunch of Pharisees, totally blind spiritually. That´s why those rituals in themselves hold no value, but are dead works.
Amazing research and a very rich article, Grindael. Yet the mormon´s response that i usually get is that people who sincerely followed the prophet despite being deceived will still be considered faithful, and/or (the most common response) we follow today´s prophet, it doesn´t matter what others did or said. I´ve seen that all over the place, i´m still going to dare a mormon to call Jesus a dead prophet, since Joseph´s words apparently supersede His.
Those men are playing “spiritual guide”, but get any of them on the spot, and they´ll be just like Hinckley on Larry King, cowards who deny their own beliefs afraid of negative PR – as if Jesus cared about PR – See John 6:48-66
Falcon, i think it goes a little beyond the desire to believe. I´m starting to notice in my conversations that the reason some mormons blindly believe their leaders is because of their spiritual experiences. They are strong, they have real consequences and it´s really hard to let go of something that makes you feel peace(when it does), and it comforts you with feel-goodish messages such as “you´re a special child of God, you were so faithful and so dear to god as you patriarchal blessing declares, you were a valiant spirit which fought alongside michael to kick lucifer out”. I mean, even though that stopped having its effect on me, the effects of it are very strong, and they are very attractive.
Also, mormonism does have a foundation that´s unchangeable, that of personal revelation. Believe it or not, some mormons are independent from the leadership not because they don´t support them, but because they are just means to an end – they just transmit the message, and its up to the members to make the most of it as they use that as a way to better connect with god through their “holy” spirit.
But as it was clearly pointed out, those experiences are not reliable – but go tell a mormon that, that those powerful feelings and experiences weren´t from God! It´s hard for a mormon to realize that because of the loosey-goosey way of interpreting prophecies. One of the strongest examples of that i heard was from a sunday school manual i don´t remember which at the moment, but it told a story about a young man who got a promise in his patriarchal blessing that he was going to serve a mission to the lamanites(i think), but he died before he got the chance to go
on a mission. The manual then explains it away talking about how his father said he went to preach to the Lamanites in the spirit-world. How absurd!
I have some women in my family who got the promise in their patriarchal blessing that they would serve missions – none of them did, they all got married. Their response to it? Well, maybe things don´t go as planned… anything but they can never question the inspiration/authority of the organization.
Hey everyone.
First up, I recently posted some replies on the why-I’m-not-a-Mormon thread. Long overdue, I know.
anyway
Your link about the second anointing was very interesting. I found one quote that really got my attention
“With the second endowment, the conditions are removed as you have already proven your faithfulness and entitlement to the blessings. Therefore, you are sealed up to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom unconditionally. Any sins committed afterward may render you liable to the “buffetings in the flesh” but they will not prevent you from attaining your exaltation. The only sin that is unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost (or in some passages the shedding of innocent blood).”
So as far as the account goes (it’s the only one I’ve seen so I think I will go with it) its not actually a case of second anointing= “guaranteed their godhood” as Grindael put it. Apparently on Mormonism there is always, always room of Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. Anyway
“If Carrington lied to his fellow “prophets, seers and revelators,” and they were powerless to “detect the thoughts and intents of his heart,” are we to believe that these men are what they claim–the very “oracles of God”?”
I can see a logical argument against Mormonism you have developed here. The clearest way I can express it is like so:
1) God has the Ability to detect liars
2) If Mormonism is true, then God would inform Mormon leaders if they are being lied to about adultery
3) If Mormon leaders know they are being lied to about adultery, they would quickly publicly reprimand the liar
4) Therefore If Mormonism is true, Albert Carrington would have been reprimanded publicly upon lying
5) Albert Carrington lied to the Mormon leaders about adultery and was not reprimanded
6) Therefore Mormonism is false
This is clearly logically valid, as about (cont)
as sensible as I can make it. If anyone thinks they can do a better job constructing it, please do so
As it stands, I think both 2) and 3) are questionable, leaving plenty of room for 4) to be false. Why? Patience and Mercy. Perhaps Albert Carrington had not yet committed the unpardonable sin, God wanted to didn’t tell the LDS leaders about his adultery because he wanted to give Carrington time to repent before he was exposed (even if God knew he wouldn’t take it the point still stands)? Perhaps God did tell some or all of the LDs leaders and they choose not to expose him publically (and even to hide the fact they knew from the notes) to give him time to repent? Perhaps a few of them approached him privately with their knowledge, to no avail? I don’t know what went on, but it’s not hard to think of possible ways for 2) and 3) to easily be false
So to answer the original question:
“If Carrington lied to his fellow “prophets, seers and revelators,” and they were powerless to “detect the thoughts and intents of his heart,” are we to believe that these men are what they claim–the very “oracles of God”?”
Mormonism’s God is much more Merciful than normative Christianity. God is not going to send billions of people who never heard the Gospel to be tormented in fire for all of eternity simply for doing things they couldn’t not do from birth. God is not going to torture people for all eternity at all. The Mormon God is a God of second chances. I simply think He gave Albert a brief second chance, but Albert wasn’t interested.
I didn´t just read that. That coming from a religion in which a god forgives your sin, but keeps the files written there so that when you commit the sin again they are all counted against you just as if had never repented. You keep on appalling me with your absurdities, Mick. God have mercy on you.
He gave Albert a brief second chance, allowing him to deceive everyone? Your god is not a god of second chances, your god is a god of confusion. And, btw, not the God of the Bible, since you hate the God of the Bible, especially Jesus who Himself said people would be sent to hell for not believing Him, see John 3:18. I also love those straw-man arguments that portray God as one who delights in seeing people suffering and His creation doomed like that. But mormons are fully ignorant of Christianity and God´s character, after all their god was a sinner like they are these days, maybe hadn´t he received many second chances maybe he wouldn´t be a god at all. Amazing!
Actually Mick, the argument goes more like this:
1)Joseph Smith pulled a religion out of his hat which said men should have a dead priesthood;
2)Those men got their egos boosted and thought they could do whatever they wanted with it;
3)Wanting to impress fear upon the minds of the people they began spreading the myth that they had a gift of discernment which would make them aware of evil even if it was hidden;
4)they were fooled so many times over the decades that it´s plain for anyone to see they have no such gift;
5)Therefore mormon leaders are in no way reliable as witnesses of spiritual truths.
Take God out of you “argument”, God never promised such a gift of discernment to Christians in the Bible, He gave His Word as a compass with which we could discern truth from error.
Mick, if you don’t mind I’d like to ask you a few questions , to see where you’re coming
from etc. How long have you been a Mormon ? Have you been through the Temple ?
Joseph F. Smith is on record as stating that Mormons are the true christians , do you
agree with that assessment ? Thanks .
Mick,
It’s pretty simple. We don’t get to decide who God is or how He chooses to operate. He is God. He calls the shots.
This is where Mormons have a problem, big time. They redefine who God says He is and what His plan of salvation is. The idea of hell makes Mormons uncomfortable? Well simply say there isn’t a hell. Well that is of course unless you leave the Mormon church and then the full weight of the system comes down on you. So Mormons don’t like God the way He is portrayed in the Bible, so they change God to be something that even the original BoM says He is. No problem. These things are easily changed and any explanation is acceptable.
Mick you can do this because you have personal revelation, right?
God isn’t going to be mocked. I seriously doubt if Mormons even bother to read the Bible. What was the point of God becoming a man and dying to redeem men from their sins? There’s a verse in the Bible that goes something like this; “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.”
I can see by your answer to grindael’s article that you are one of those Mormons who can make Mormonism work for you regardless of the evidence presented that it is a false religious system with leaders who have no special spiritual abilities.
I don’t know what your motivation for being a Mormon is but I will say it has nothing to do with the evidence regarding Mormonism.
I never heard of Alex Carrington. It is interesting what history is kept alive by people.
clyde,
I see you have driven by and shot off a single bullet aimed no where in particular. grindael has a depth of knowledge that I would attribute to an exceptional intellect, an ability to make connections and a passion to bring the truth to people. And what do we get from you? Some off handed remark that is little more than a cheap shot. I guess you’d like to keep the facts and evidence about Mormonism buried as deep as possible. Is your faith in Mormonism so weak that you fear the truth?
These Mormon leaders hold no particular spiritual gifts beyond what a very poor psychic possesses. They don’t even possess any particular intellectual gifts that would allow them to ask a few probing questions and come to some common sense conclusions. This is what happens when people jump on board some spiritual bandwagon and begin playing a tune that sounds delightful.
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural in nature and allow believers the tools necessary to function effectively in the Body of Christ. Read the Book of Acts to see how God equips those He chooses with supernatural abilities.
Clever people who have followers who are slavishly dependent on them to have their spiritual needs met, are more than happy to declare all sorts of nonsense and have (those followers) accept it without question.
“I never heard of Alex Carrington. It is interesting what history is kept alive by people.”
Gee, I’d never heard Joseph Smith was a polygamist either, or that there are 9 versions of the first vision, or a Mormon man’s ultimate goal was to become a god, or that the ultimate goal of a Mormon woman was to be eternally pregnant (along with millions of other wives) so a man could populate his own world, or that if I don’t treat my husband the way he thinks I should, he just won’t call me from my grave by my secret temple name ( every woman who went through the temple that day has the same name) or the truth about the Mountain Meadows, or Haun’s Mill, the list of history is LONG! I think it’s even more interesting what history had been buried by the LDS church. Thanks to people like the Tanners, websites by faithful Christians and the information highway, we can all be more informed. The best part is, we don’t have to look any further than the LDS church’s own publications! It’s all in there perfectly preserved for posterity. When I read what the Mormon’s post here I feel such a sense of sadness. Sadness because I was once just like them, going along, following a man, never really understanding who God is, who Jesus is, it was when I got to the history that had been hidden from me that it all started to change. I am not one who can twist or spin or make excuses for all of this. Mick, your reasoning is so complicated. Truth is simple. The more mental gymnastics you have to do to defend something, should be the first clue that something is wrong.
Falcon
Let me see if I can explain to what I see that is very interesting about this blog. Grindael has kept history alive. There are things in church history that church historians would not want mentioned. But the stories of events and actions and opinions of early church(mormon) leaders are still there and they can be taken as anybody sees them. Whether they get good out of the story or bad is up to their interpretation of the story.
I have never heard of Alex Carrington and one day I might have to look up what he did in church history. The event Grindael mentions happened within the last 200 years. There are events that happened 2000 years ago that we do not know about. Or a better way to put it history that has been completely forgotten.
You ask ‘Is your faith in mormonism so weak that you fear the truth?’ No it isn’t. I seek to learn of God and His son Jesus. I believe mankind should be a lot better off after 2000 years of christianity than it is now.
I see things that are common among us. The fact that we can look outside on a starry night and realize how small and insignificant we are compare to God. What separates us is our man made definition we have given God. When we find out the truth we will probably both be shocked.
Wow Kate you beat me by ten minutes. My last blog I did not mention the Tanners. Glad you mentioned Haun’s Mill. I forget what happened there at times. Wow another Cheap shot by me that Falcon can complain about.
clyde,
I don’t have a man-made definition of God. I know who He is based on the revelation He has given about Himself and contained in His Word the Bible. He tells us all about Himself there. Who He tells us He is, isn’t who the prophets of the Mormon church say He is. Even your uber-prophet Smith changed his mind and went a different direction from the Bible and from the very BoM he penned. I would think that would tip Mormons off that something isn’t quite right.
The problem is that you are following men who have no special talent or gift that would lead them to be able to define who god is. In following them you have surrendered to a false set of beliefs that are easy to detect when a person becomes the slightest bit inquisitive.
We have three current posters on this thread who were dedicated Mormons and who figured out what was going on in regards to Mormonism and its prophets. They had the courage to face the facts and recognize that they had been misled by those identified as prophets.
As far as your contemplating the stars at night I would suggest you review the words of the apostle Paul in the book of Romans. (Romans 1:18-23)
Paul talks about people that “……exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man…….” This is what Mormonism with its false prophets have done. They have elevated men to the status of deity.
Mormons follow prophets and apostles who don’t even know who God is. I don’t care how sincere and devout a person is, if they acknowledge a god other than God, they are lost along with the false prophets who have perpetuated the fraud.
Mick,
Look up cognitive dissonance. Then look up the link I posted about Amasa Lyman. You have it all wrong. No one said anything about publically reprimanding him. Here is the “logic” sequence.
1. Ordained to godhood in 1867
2. Ordained Apostle in 1870
3. Commits Adultery and other sex crimes for 12 years, between 1873-1885
4. Denies before Hierarchy of Church these charges
5. Hierarchy believes him and sustains him in office
6. Woman that A.C. has adultery with confesses in 1885
7. Hierarchy is confessed to by A.C.in 1885
8. Hierarchy is “surprised” and cuts off A.C.
9. Hierarchy actions can’t support their own “truth-claims”
Some further information not included in the article. From “authority” Abraham H. Cannon:
Tues. Nov. 10th 1885–“A notice was published in tonight’s News signed by all of the Apostles except Geo. Teasdale who is absent, stating that Albert Carrington had been cut off from the Church for lewd and lascivious cohabitation and adultery. These acts are said to have been mostly of recent occurrence. This action caused everyone to be surprised.” (Journal entry)
Brigham Young Jr. reported,
[November 6, 1885:] [[At a meeting of the Twelve, which Young calls “one of the solemn days of my life,” charges of Lasiv. Cohab., fornication and adultery are heard against Albert Carrington. Carrington confessed, and tried to argue that because he did not “mix the seeds” he was only foolish but not criminal. This had been going on for about 12 years commencing when Carrington was President of the British mission. “The Twelve sat as a high Council president Woodruff presiding, Each expressed their opinion & all agreed. President delivered judgement, accused guilty of all charge[s]” and Carrington cut off from the church.]]
So, they gave him 12 years to repent? Now let’s think about this. They are going to allow this guy to entice other people into sin, over
a twelve year period, just to give the guy time to “own up”? I think this is called “grasping at straws” to defend the indefensible. Again, with B.Y. Jr., we have “each expressed their “opinion” and all “agreed”.
This issue goes deeper than just a court trying someone for crimes. It speaks to the total lack of discernment by these men, who claim “divine powers of discernment” that allow them to look into people’s hearts and determine their guilt or innocence. What most Mormons don’t bother to do is research. For example, in another entry, Abraham Cannon relates,
“The question of forgiveness for the sin of adultery was considered at some length, and examples were given of the views entertained by the various Presidents who have led the Church. All consider it a most grievous sin, but the strictness with which the law of excommunication has been enforced has varied. There seems to be more leniency in this regard at present, and some of the brethren seem to feel that this laxity is doing injury among the people by causing them to look upon this sin as being of no very grave import. Bro. Snow said he expected to see the day when a man’s blood will be shed for the crime of adultery. (Journal, December 2, 1890).
If they are discussing exercising “blood atonement” on someone for adultery, why in the world would the just let Carrington go about his business for two more years? They wouldn’t. What some don’t do, is just look at the events as they played out. But instead of asking questions, their minds gravitate to cognitive dissonance, inventing ridiculous excuses because they cannot face the truth, which is that these men were not apostles of Jesus Christ, they were cronies who desperately wanted to believe one
of their own, so they ignored the evidence and gave their crony a “pass” to go and sin again, and seduce more innocents as he went on his merry way. As for the sin against the Holy “Ghost”, Brigham Young once said:
”The Lord is merciful, but, when He comes to His Kingdom on the earth, He will banish traitors from His presence, and they will be sons of perdition. Every apostate who ever received this gospel in faith, and had the Spirit of it, will have to repent in sackcloth and ashes, and sacrifice all he possesses, or be a son of perdition, go down to hell, and there dwell with the damned…” (JOD 12:63)
Carrington was a traitor to his covenants, but he was covered, because he was an ordained god. Weigh this quote against the one by our Mormon friend:
“God is not going to torture people for all eternity at all. The Mormon God is a God of second chances. “
Then think about this quote by Parley P. Pratt, about the Mormon God, and how he views the Christian God:
“For shame, why worship a God who has no ears, mouth, nor eyes, whose arm is shortened that he cannot save, and has no power to deliver? It is true, I am not much in the habit of ridiculing, but really, if Isaiah, or Elijah were here, they would HOLD YOU IN DERISION, AND YOUR GOD TOO. And I am sure, the living God WOULD LAUGH AT AS WELL AS MOCK BOTH YOU AND YOUR GOD. It seems at last, I have discovered what Mr. S. means by our revelations being blasphemy. Who ever will read the first article of religion in the doctrines and “discipline” of the METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH, will find a description of their God: a God
without body or parts, of course then he has neither eyes, ears, or mouth, and can neither see, hear, nor speak. Well now, Mr. Sunderland, we acknowledge that all revelations we have ever received from Israel’s God, was direct blasphemy against yours. But let it be understood distinctly, that we do not love, serve, nor fear your God; and if he has been blasphemed, let him speak and plead his own cause: but THIS HE CANNOT DO, SEEING HE HAS NO MOUTH.” (From ~ “MORMONISM UNVEILED Zion’s Watchman Unmasked, and it’s editor Mr. L.R. Sunderland, Exposed: Truth Vindicated! The Devil mad and Priestcraft in Danger! By P. P. Pratt Minister of the Gospel. Tract, 1838)
God is Spirit Parley. Your finite mind couldn’t comprehend Him. Now compare that with this other sentiment:
“Mormonism’s God is much more Merciful than normative Christianity.”
Does this make the Mormon “Elohim” the God of “abnormal” Christianity? Christians leave final judgment in the hands of God, Mormons have to save everyone, ignoring the very words of Christ where he said I don’t come to bring peace, but a sword. Christ said it wouldn’t be easy, but those of us who place our faith in the God of the Bible, won’t be shocked, because God has defined Himself, and his gospel in our Word from Him, that very same Holy Book._johnny
grindael,
Thanks for bringing the doctrine of Second Anointing to the forefront for others to learn about. I had heard of this many years ago while walking with a group of women from my ward. I too think that it is still in practice, maybe not as openly as it used to be though. I always wondered how perfect someone had to be to get there. I also wondered if it was reserved for the leadership of the church, not ordinary members like myself.
“Those so ordained are ‘sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise’ and thereby granted the assurance that they are “equal in power, and in might, and in dominion” with God Himself.”
This part really creeps me out. Blasphemous. I’m not sure if Mormons are trying to lower God to their level or raise themselves up to his. Either way this is not Christianity. Falcon has said many times that the Mormon program is all about becoming a god. That’s the ultimate goal. For those men who know this and are striving for it, what does that say about them? Overachiever? LOL! Sorry, it’s not funny I know, but that’s the only thing I can think of at the moment. But seriously, think about it, men who are striving to become god.
Clyde,
Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t condone what happened at Haun’s Mill, I brought it up because the history of it isn’t told by the LDS church. The Mormons weren’t innocent it the events leading up to that day. Research the War of 1838 and especially the battle of Crooked River. There were atrocities on both sides. I know you didn’t bring up the Tanners, I did. I’m thankful for all of their hard work and accurate research.
“Well now, Mr. Sunderland, we acknowledge that all revelations we have ever received from Israel’s God, was direct blasphemy against yours. But let it be understood distinctly, that we do not love, serve, nor fear your God; and if he has been blasphemed, let him speak and plead his own cause: but THIS HE CANNOT DO, SEEING HE HAS NO MOUTH.”
For the Mormons out there that insist we worship the same God, here’s the proof that we don’t. Past leaders preached this, today’s leaders are so busy trying to make Mormonism Christianity that they have to lie by omission about this. We have different Gods. Why use the Bible at all if the God of the Bible is directly blasphemed against, not loved, served, or feared by Mormons?
Kate,
Your last paragraph says a lot. Mormonism is a religion that is in a constant state of flux always redefining itself. The old time Mormons circa 1850s were a totally different breed from what we see today. Of course we have modern communication to thank for providing instant information on breaking events and also research capabilities that weren’t previously available.
If Mitt Romney gets close to the Republican nomination for president of the United States, expect to see a ton of information coming to the forefront regarding the history, doctrines and practices of the Mormon church. The LDS church will polish-off their “persecution” charge and display it prominently. It’s a good way for them to try and keep major document dumps from happening.
I’m waiting for someone to ask Mitt if he thinks he will become a god. Just think about that and all the implications of having someone running for president that thinks he will become a god. How’s that going to play with the public?
I don’t know where Mormons will go with a close scrutiny of their religion that’s bound to intensify.
I’m also wondering how Mormonism is doing with the young people in their church. The culture as a whole is changing. I don’t know if the Mormon youth are that into the Word of Wisdom. Can the LDS leadership maintain the status that has been assigned them? I have my doubts.
Kate, I’m wondering if this ordinance of ” the second annointing ” has ever been voted on
in General Conference as a true doctrine ? On another thought , I think it’s just very
unfortunate how the Mormon people can be so misled by their own spiritual witness when
they sustained apostle Carrington and also apostles Richard Lyman as being faithful to
their leadership roles when in fact they were secretcy unfaithful ( adulterers ). Mormon
faithful simply trusted their prophet’s testimony that these men merited their vote etc.
I think this gives me a window into the lives of sincere Mormons and how they are similarly
misled on important doctrines that they receive from their prophet . This whole scenario
I find relevant as to why Jesus warned everyone about false prophets coming . It’s one thing
to read of this deception in the lives of Mormons who lived in the recent past but it really is
informative to listen to those former Mormons , like you, who share their stories here .
Nice job, grindael. Very informative. There’s so much of Mormon history I don’t know about. I mainly just know about the basics and what the faithful followers believe.
Which relates to falcon’s question on how the youth are handling Mormonism. There are varying degrees, with many still being faithful. But there a TON who are just going through the motions. In fact, there were a lot when I was young that were doing all kinds of sinful stuff in secret. Then they would turn around and lie to the bishop and go to the temple. Holy discernment my foot. I know way more about many of the Mormons I grew up with than any bishop would ever want to hear about. There are missionaries who sneak around and date prospects, go see movies, and call their girlfriends waiting at home. But the leaders have no idea. If they find out, they either cover it up or the missionaries get sent home.
From what I’ve seen, the majority of Mormons don’t have a clue as to who the god they’re serving is. I don’t know how many of you hop around on other blogs/pinterest/twitter/etc, but they are constantly posting scriptures and quotes that directly contradict their church’s prophets and teachings. It’s mind-boggling. It’ll be fascinating to see how this plays out in the political arena. The Church can only do so much damage control before people start figuring it all out.
Falcon, you said ” Mormonism is a religion that is in a constant state of flux always
redefining itself. ”
You were kind with that assessment .
Well Mike, I do have my weak moments!
I don’t know why Mormons don’t get it. The only thing I can figure out is that it’s social, familial pressure and/or the false sense of spirituality that Mormons feel.
fmelo has made a huge contribution to my understanding of the spiritual experience component of the Mormon who is really into it. He figured it out. The fact that he (and other Mormons) didn’t just tube religion is still a wonder to me. What does the Word say? He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Mormons need to go to God’s Word for their answers rather than the words of a bunch of false prophets.
Falcon, I agree with you about f-melo , he’s been a blessing . When you said , ” I don’t
know why Mormons don’t get it ” , I agree it’s frustrating seeing as how they have such
trust in their prophets that they don’t seem to see all the evidence warning them to dismiss
these men from their lives. Yet there are those who have had their eyes opened to see the
warnings signs that they are following false prophets. One example of this is the following
testimony from the Salt Lake City Messenger # 114 :
” The final decisive moment was when I realized that the prophets routinely contradict
themselves through their doctrines and that it is impossible to discern what is doctrine
verses opinion . No amount of praying and good works could resolve the extensive
contradictions . We all know why. I found myself required to accept fact, truth, and the
light of Christ. ”
There are LDS who are coming to experience a full , un-cumbered relationship with the true
Jesus Christ all the time. God give strength to the many more who are thinking about such
freedom.
Mike,
Let’s face it. Mormonism is a hassle! I can see how Mormons think that all of their required activity, giving and life style habits are somehow very spiritual but it’s all merely an appearance of religion. Mormons wrongly assume that if they do all that is required by the church, including faithfully following the leadership, they are pleasing the Mormon god. All they are really doing is feeding a religious system that has an insatiable appetite for labor and money and demands slavish loyalty to the system and leaders.
What is the point of all this doing, besides the obvious attempts to please a Mormon entity they call “Heavenly Father”? Well from what I can see it’s to build and sustain the Mormon religious system and somehow secure a heavenly reward of some sort.
From what I can see, in Mormonism Heavenly Father and Jesus are there to assist the faithful Mormon in reaching the status that they have achieved. Supposedly the Mormon prophets are the human mouth piece for the Mormon Heavenly Father as he communicates his messages through these prophets to the Mormon people.
An examination of the lives and proclamations of these prophet leaders since the inception of Mormonism shows that these men are projecting a god that has a hard time communicating his thoughts, wishes and desires. Joseph Smith couldn’t even make up his mind what he reportedly saw in that little grove of trees. Smith even changed his mind regarding who God is. Smith said that polygamy was the ticket to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom only to have another prophet over turn that requirement. The premortal, dark skinned people who weren’t valiant enough to receive the Mormon priesthood suddenly found themselves acceptable on a major Mormon god reversal.
What a mess!
Falcon, you mentioned the word ” requirement” , i.e. what is required of the individual
Mormon to do in order to eventually gain eternal life has been supposedly revealed from
God by Mormon prophets and apostles . When we look at this closely we see a pattern of
indecision , of vacillating by these spiritual leaders on this issue . This is especially disturbing
since these men have claimed to restore the gospel that Jesus inaugurated with His death and resurrection , and which He instructed His apostles to spread to the world. The Mormon
people have been convinced by a inner conviction , a spiritual witness , that these men who
direct their lives are actually relaying saving truths from God to them . Thus to doubt the
counsel from these men is akin to questioning God , and this no doubt plays an important
role in their submission to leadership. May the Mormon people , who are decent people
striving to serve God, see the truth that they don’t need these men in their lives . They can
come straight to God’s word and see the actual “requirement ” for eternal life . God will honor
that step and His Son will be seen for who He really is . The Mormon people deserve a more
reliable spiritual guide —- Jesus .
Mike,
“They can come straight to God’s word and see the actual “requirement ” for eternal life . God will honor that step and His Son will be seen for who He really is .”
As I was reading through your dialog with falcon, I was thinking this very thing. This is what changed it all for me. Coming to know the true and living Christ of the Bible. Mormons don’t know this Christ. Mormonism’s Christ is not the traditional Christ of the Bible just ask Gordon Hinkley. After all the anger, upset, fear, loss, etc…I picked up a Bible and just asked God to lead me. He did. This is all anyone has to do. Once you find the true and living Christ, you never want to be without Him again. Mormons are so confused because they don’t have this relationship with Him. They are so worried about doing everything perfectly and work, work, working themselves to exaltation that they miss Him all together. I know that when I was a Mormon, I just followed the prophet blindly and I would defend him to the bitter end because I was afraid that I would go to Hell if I didn’t. I was taught that God would not allow him to lead me astray. Mormon children are taught this through family, Primary songs and lessons. It starts early. There’s a big to do here in Utah right now because a Southern Baptist Minister said Mitt Romney belongs to a cult and is not a Christian. Holy cow you should read my Facebook! Mormons don’t understand that they worship a different Christ than Christians do. Joseph Smith made up a different Christ for Mormonism, this makes them Mormons not Christians. Mark 13:22
Torquemada
Have you ever heard of talking points? That is where someone mentions something that seems unrelated to what needs to be talked about such as contemplating the stars at night. Then you talk about the…..
Falcon
Sorry about that. Now where was I. Oh yes then you talk about the gospel. It helps establish that you’re not fanatical and can calmly talk to someone about something that is important to you. Someone said’ a false set of beliefs that are easy to detect when a person becomes the slightest bit inquisitionary’. It forbades the thought of someone thinking you will be sending them to a reeducation camp and that Even though you yourself are 100% sure of your position you can accept their position. Also when a person becomes the slightest bit inquisitionary more people are skeptical of your position and less acceptable of it.
I don’t have a man-made definition of God. I know who He is based on the revelation He has given about Himself and contained in the scriptures. He tells us all about Himself there. I also like to observe and ponder how others have seen him. I was wrong about man-made definitions. It is the conclusion we get from them that separates us.
Kate, God met you right where you were ! His word is powerful and is available for
any Mormon to open and see the truth of who He is and what is ” required” for a living ,
loving relationship with Him now , today and for eternity . My wife was in a religion
with a prophet at the top that claimed to be the sole modern day mouthpiece of God .
Salvation meant being a member of this group. Thru the frustration of trying to meet
all the requirements set down by her prophet , she stepped back one day and retreated
to her bedroom with a Bible and poured out her heart to God asking Jesus if he was only
a god , or God, asking if she could pray to Him or not ( her prophet had declared that praying
to Jesus was not allowed ) , after her prayer she open her Bible to the Gospel of John and
saw how unique Jesus is , not just a god , or the arch-angel Michael ( another “gospel truth”
from her prophet ) , but that He was God Almighty who became man . God met her right
where she was . Needless to say this all contributed to her leaving ” God’s organization ” , as
it was called by members . Subsequently she was able to gather info on the short history of
her former modern day prophets ( 1879 – present ) and saw just how much doctrinal flip flops
these spiritual guides had issued in the name of Jehovah , all the while reminding their followers
that to question their authority was to question God Himself .
clyde,
You didn’t come to your conclusions based on what the Scriptures say. You came to your conclusions about who God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost and (the Mormons add) Holy Spirit based on what a Mormon prophet told you. That’s a big difference.
Let’s consider what Kate wrote above:
“Coming to know the true and living Christ of the Bible. Mormons don’t know this Christ. Mormonism’s Christ is not the traditional Christ of the Bible just ask Gordon Hinkley. After all the anger, upset, fear, loss, etc…I picked up a Bible and just asked God to lead me. He did. This is all anyone has to do. Once you find the true and living Christ, you never want to be without Him again. Mormons are so confused because they don’t have this relationship with Him.”
Kate discovered Jesus by reading the NT. He revealed Himself to her. She came to accept Jesus as her Lord and Savior based this revelation.
Jesus is timeless. He has no beginning. He was/is the creator, he wasn’t created. The Holy Spirit is God’s gift to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ. Jesus bled and died on the cross in payment for our sins. We receive the gift of eternal life that God is offering us through faith in the Jesus revealed in God’s Word.
There you have it clyde! You can follow Joseph Smith to your eventual spiritual destruction or you can choose Jesus; not a created being that Smith and subsequent prophets said Jesus was. Given all that you know about Mormonism clyde, you are, in the words of the apostle Paul, without excuse.
Your sincerity and devotion to what you believe is not a cover. You know better!
clyde,
You’re missing something if you say you believe what you believe about the nature of God based on the Scriptures. It’s not possible. Even the original BoM had an orthodox view of the nature of God. Hence, my claim that you believe what you believe based on what Mormon prophets have taught regarding the nature of God. Even at that you’re stuck because we have Joseph Smith saying one thing in his original BoM, then changing it in the King Follett Discourse and then Brigham Young comes along and says that Adam was God and away we go.
For some reason you dig Mormonism. You’ve bought the premise of this ever evolving religion that men can become gods. That there are millions perhaps billions of gods. That Mormon men, once they become a god have their wife or wives with which to procreate spirit children and on and on. This is not in the Scriptures so you believe it because men who claim to be prophets have told you this. It’s not in the Scriptures or in the writings of the Church Fathers. You’ve obviously bought the ridiculous Mormon myth that corrupt Catholic monks left it all out of the Bible. You may as well claim that they left space aliens, Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny out also. I don’t say this to mock you or your religion but am pointing out the absurdity of the Mormon belief system.
I don’t know why you believe Mormonism, but it’s not because you found it in the Bible. I would think that since you are investing a lot of time, money, effort and your eternal soul to this scheme, you’d at least take the time to research it.
Every exMormon writing on this blog was where you are at today. They left Mormonism!
Falcon
You seem to believe what others have written about the Mormon church and taken it as fact. Your idea of what I think is absurd. I don’t see that once saved always save is true or God saves who he wants to, that I see is absurd. I can live with them believing that however I worry about fanatical believers. We need to tolerate people without compromising our own beliefs.
clyde,
You’re going to need to be a little more specific regarding your charge that I take what others have written about Mormonism as fact and that it is absurd. Help me out a little bit here. Who are the “others” and what have they written? We go through this all the time with Mormons claiming what we Christians say about Mormonism is not true. I stick to some pretty basic themes and those themes are supported by the history and writings of the Mormon church itself.
Really clyde, do you want me to tell you that I know what I know about Mormonism because it was revealed to me? We all get our information from some source and Mormonism is the best source available for information about the sect. Where would you like to start?
We have several exMormons posting here on a regular basis and I don’t say anything different from what they say about the religion of which they were previously members.
Did you notice that Kate has said that she discovered a lot of the information that led her out of Mormonism. So in other words, she didn’t know it until she started investigating the religion of which she was apart of.
So clyde innumerate for me where I have it wrong about Mormonism.
Clyde,
You said:
“I don’t see that once saved always save is true or God saves who he wants to, that I see is absurd.”
I guess if you want to have a discussion relative to the five points of Calvinism, you’ll have to head on over to a website where those things are discussed. However from my perspective this is exactly what Mormonism teaches. In fact Mormonism is Calvinism without the benefit of saving faith. Everybody gets saved in Mormonism without exception therefore they can do nothing to lose this universal salvation. In order to keep people in the Mormon fold, the LDS teaches that those folks who leave get assigned to Mormon hell, outer darkness.
In Mormonism, the dearly departed even get a sort of spiritual “do-over” and that’s the point of all the dead dunking that Mormons get involved in.
At least Calvinism has a basis in a Biblical reality where as Mormonism with its universalist point of view has no basis in Scripture. You’re coming on here like Calvinism is the prevailing point of view among all of the denominations of Christianity. I think you need to study Christian doctrine. Go buy yourself a big thick Christian theology book and you could entertain yourself for hours. I really don’t know the amount of Christian theology the average born again Christian knows but that’s really irrelevant anyway. There’s only one question on God’s final exam and those who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior have already scored 100%.
Clyde, I notice you made some broad statements about Falcon with out backing them up. That is very typical of Mormons. Tell us we are wrong, yet never tell us where, why or how we are wrong.
Yet when we tell you guys, your wrong, we provide lots of evidence. Why is that with LDS?