On January 22 (2012) on Fox News Sunday Mormon presidential candidate Mitt Romney answered a question from Chris Wallace regarding Mr. Romney’s generous financial gifts (tithing) to the Mormon Church. Mr. Romney said,
“This is a country that believes in the Bible, the Bible speaks about providing tithes and offerings, I made a commitment to my church a long, long time ago that I would give 10 percent of my income to the church, and I’ve followed through on that commitment. And hopefully as people look at the various individuals who’re running for president they’d be pleased with someone who made a promise — a promise to God — and kept that promise. So, if I had given less than 10 percent then I think people would have to look at me and say, ‘Hey, what’s wrong with you fella — don’t you follow through on your promises?’” (Find this exchange at the video’s 10-minute mark.)
The clear implication found in Mr. Romney’s remark is that he is one who keeps his promises to God and church. Given that, perhaps it would be of interest to think about additional promises Mr. Romney (and other Mormons) have made to God.
Like many other Mormons, as a young man Mitt Romney attended a Mormon temple to receive his Endowments. This ceremony is currently described within Mormonism in this way:
“Your Endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation.”
During the Endowment Ceremony patrons (i.e., the Mormons who are participating) are required to make several promises to God. [Since Mitt Romney committed to his temple covenants in 1966, the quotes that follow are from a 1969 transcript of the ceremony, provided by “a temple worker” and printed in Tanners’ Mormonism – Shadow or Reality. The current temple ceremony may be worded a bit differently.]
As the Endowment Ceremony begins, patrons are warned,
“If you proceed and receive your full endowment, you will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God; for God will not be mocked.”
Seven times in the Endowment Ceremony each patron is required to “covenant and promise” that s/he will do specific things. Three of these promises are related to the “tokens” [i.e., handshakes or grips] of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods. For three tokens the patron promises essentially the same thing:
“I, [name] do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the [specific token], together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken.”
While making these promises (in 1969), the patron pantomimes the execution of the penalties associated with his “life [being] taken” should he go back on his word. He is instructed relative to each token:
“The execution of the penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side.” [According to the earlier wording of the Endowment Ceremony as contained in the 1931 book, Temple Mormonism, this signifies the patron having his throat cut.]
“The execution of the penalty is represented by placing the right hand on the left breast, drawing the hand quickly across the body, and dropping the hands to the sides.” [Signifying having his heart cut out.]
“The execution of the penalty is represented by drawing the thumb quickly across the body and dropping the hands to the sides.” [Signifying being disemboweled.]
It’s easy to see why Mitt Romney and other Mormons do not want to talk about the specifics of their temple experiences. According to the promises they’ve made, they are willing to die in rather gruesome ways rather than reveal “the key words, the signs and tokens” required to enter into “the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels.”
Four additional promises are required from those who participate in the Mormon Endowment Ceremony. These are promises and covenants that the patron will obey certain laws defined by the Mormon Church:
Law of Obedience: “…each of you do covenant and promise that you will obey the law of God, and keep His commandments.”
Law of Sacrifice: “…the Law of Sacrifice as contained in the Old and New Testaments, which is that you do sacrifice all that you have, including your own lives, if necessary, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth.”
“…you do covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will keep the Law of Sacrifice…which has been explained to you.”
Law of the Gospel: “We are instructed to give you the Law of the Gospel, also a charge to avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord’s Anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain and every other unholy and impure practice.”
“…you do covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will keep the Law of the Gospel as it has been explained to you.”
Law of Consecration: “…you do covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will keep the Law of Consecration…which is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything with which the Lord has blessed you or with which He may bless you to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth [i.e., the LDS Church] and for the establishment of Zion [i.e., a unified society of God’s covenant people — the LDS Church].”
Mormons make other formal promises to God, too — when they are baptized, when they are married, when they participate the sacrament at their church every Sunday (etc.) — but the seven detailed above provide plenty of food for thought. I’ll leave it to you, readers, to draw your own conclusions on how any of these commitments to God might be interpreted and acted upon by the Mormons who promise to keep them.
Hmm, Question –
Does anyone here have a problem with the 4 covenants listed at the bottom; ie Law of Consecration, Law of Gospel, Law of Obedience, and Law of Sacrifice? Didn’t you promise to God when you became converted to do all that He asks of you and give of what ever time, possessions, etc that He asks/requires of you? Weren’t you willing to give God your all because of your faith?
So what is the difference that we LDS do it in a more formal manner in the temple? And before you say that its to the church (ie an institution), we believe that it is to our God through the institution – just go back and read the covenants. The only one there that says anything about the LDS church as an institution is the last and it states – “consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything with which the Lord has blessed you or with which He may bless you to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth“. The church is the Kingdom of God on the earth so this is consecration everything of ours to God for the purpose of building His kingdom on this earth. It is not just to the church but to God for His earthly purposes.
So unless you have a problem with consecrating everything to your God and doing what He asks/requires of you, then this is a non-issue.
Fred, you accuse me of not citing my sources. Well I hate to break the news to you but this would have been my last post and it stated where I got the info, but my last post turned out to be my 6th and final post for the day. So your wrong. But my last post said,
, and it was Jesus alone who visited him and forgave his sins.
We are left, then, with various differing stories of this important event. Joseph never did tell \”but one story\” of the first vision; he told several, as already shown by the various published statements of early LDS leaders. There is no way to tell, then, if any of the details of the vision really happened. Was it one angel or several who visited Joseph? What was the identity of the heavenly visitor to Joseph – Jesus and God, Jesus alone, Peter (JD 6:29), Nephi (Times & Seasons 3:753; 1851 PoGP, pg.41; Millennial Star 3:53, 71), or Moroni?
Was he 14, 15, 16 or 17 years old when it happened? Was his reason for praying to get forgiveness, to determine if there was a God or to find out which religion was correct? Was he overcome by a dark and evil power or wasn\’t he?
All these variations – particularly in the accounts that came directly from Joseph Smith himself – lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the official version of Joseph Smith\’s \”first vision\” is, at best, unreliable. Though unproveable, Joseph may have had some kind of a vision in his younger years that he expanded upon and/or changed the details of each time he re-told it. Eventually the story was developed into the heart-rending official version that the LDS Church publishes today as fact, though it clearly
Cont, though it clearly is not.
So here is teaching about the first vision and problems found from your churchs teachings.
Even if you claim this is wrong, first off your just saying it is wrong with no evidence to back it up.
Then what about the other 8? They contradict each other.
Then you quote from the BoM claiming they used a language that does not exist and never has existed. It claims it was their manner of speech, so it should exist and be able to prove it was used.
You believe the BoM was not written in Hebrew because they did not have enough room to write?
If you read the Bible, Thew Jews and Egyptians are enemy’s and God tells the Jews To stay out of Egypt, so do you really believe that God would tell his prophets or people to use the language of their enemy’s?
Add to that, If the BoM teaches about the tower of Babel, and the BoM people were around at that time, then how come Jesus or the apostles never mention BoM people, places or stories? Jesus and the apostles quote from the O.T. and go all the way back to the tower of Babel and even the garden.
So it would stand to reason that if the BoM and the people it mentions are real, Jesus or the apostles should have mentioned or quoted them, but that never happens since they are not real.
I am floored by your post. Tell me, does God need shopping malls to build up His kingdom? You need to take a look at just where the LDS church is putting it’s money. I find it very offensive. I have friends and family members who are struggling to keep up the monthly payments for their kids to be out on missions. Why isn’t the church using tithing to fully fund these missions? After all, aren’t they out there trying to build up the kingdom? Aren’t missions more important than shopping malls or trying to impress the world with one more LDS temple in the Salt Lake area? I have no doubt that faithful LDS believe they are giving their time, talents and money to the building up of God’s kingdom, but look at the riches the LDS leaders collect and enjoy. What did Jesus say? Mark 10:25
Wow, I only typed that once, not sure why it posted twice! 🙂
Rick B says: February 2, 2012 at 11:26 pm –(Fred, you accuse me of not citing my sources. Well I hate to break the news to you but this would have been my last post and it stated where I got the info, but my last post turned out to be my 6th and final post for the day. So your wrong. But my last post said,)
I still do not see a reference to who you copied and pasted this from.
(Even if you claim this is wrong, first off your just saying it is wrong with no evidence to back it up.)
Joseph Smith’s various accounts of the First Vision were targeted at different audiences, and had different purposes. They, however, show a remarkable degree of harmony between them. There is no evidence that the early leaders of the LDS Church did not understand that the Prophet saw two Divine Personages during his inaugural theophany”
Since the answer will require much space and since you do not understand Reformed Egyptian I cannot write the response in the space here, you will need to go to the where the author posted this reply. These folks have put together some good responses, with lots of links to source material, and they do a better job then I can.
And if any of these topics are of interest;
First Vision accounts (summary) 1832 account (overview)
Early understanding of God?
No new dispensation?
Not forbidden to convert?
Only one Deity?
In heaven or earth?
Struggle with Satan?
1835 account (overview) Personages were angels?
1838 account (overview) 1820 Revival?
“It commenced with the Methodists”
Paul’s accounts of his vision Scholars solved discrepancies?
Can’t see God without priesthood?;
[Fred, please note the following from the Mormon Coffee Comment Policy and conform your comments to it in the future. Thank you.]
I told you I got it from the MRM website, If Thats not good enough and I was supposed to provide a link to the exact article Then I was not aware of that.
January 31, 2012 at 7:00 am
More examples of almost truth that creates a lie that is hard to prove wrong.
Oops! USA Today goofs in cover story about LDS beliefs
Hi ya Fred! I don’t post here very often, because I don’t have the resources that falcon, grindael, and the others do, nor do I usually have the time to really do justice to the thread as I’m usually at work when I get caught up on my reading here. However. I read the article that you posted from Deseret News, and I really wanted to say a couple of things about it.
(I’m unfamiliar with HTML code so I’m going to avoid it here. I’ll use ” “to indicate quotes frome the article, and ‘ ‘ to indicate other quoted material. My natterings will be quotes less. :))
1)- “…the notion that the garment has been “blesed by the church” suggests a “kosher”- type blessing by a church official that simply does not happen.”
OK then. So I can just run out to Target or Walmart and buy a set? The mere fact that you have to go through the temple ceremony or show proof of a temple reccommend to buy them suggests that they are some how not just “a simple cotton T-shirt and fitted pants. The closest thing to compare I could find outside of the Mormon church was a scapular. I can buy a scapular for, say, 5 bucks, and wear it if I wish, (even though I’m not Catholic), but it will do me no good unless it’s blessed by a priest. Here’s the thing, though…
If/when it wears out, I can walk into any store that sells Catholic items and buy a scapular, and I’m good to go. I don’t have to prove that I’m “worthy” to wear it, because if I’m not, I simply won’t derive any benefit from it. So whether a “church official” lays his hands on every single garment sold by the LDS and says “Bless you”, or not, the implication that these garments are in some way blessed is there.
2)-3rd para. re: Declaration 2 “First the president of the LDS Church in 1978 was Spencer W. Kimball.”
Picky, picky, picky. So incorrect information slips past and editor. Has anyone contacted USA Today with the correct information? Doesn’t seem so, the mistake is still there. Guess what. Idid. Whether I get a response or not, remains to be seen, but I made the effort.
“And third, it has never been the official position of the LDS Church that black men bore the mark of Cain.”
Maybe not, it’s so difficult to tell what the official position is…but is sure seems that a lot of official church people held that position. (http://www.mrm.org/curse-of-cain)
3)- “…it indicates that Mormons believe :God and Jesus both had physical bodies. Latter-day Saints would use the word “have” instead of “had”…”
Why was this ‘rebuttal’ printed in a church owned publication rather than in USA Today, as a direct response to the article? As has been frequently said said by many, both before me, and much more eloquently, if the Mormons church, and Mormons in general are so concerned about the dissemination of misconceptions, why don’t they just come right out and correct them?
Instead all we hear is “nope you’ve got it all wrong”. And when we ask for the correct information, we get “look it up yourself”, “milk before meat”, “that’s too sacred to talk about with non-believers”.
Rae says: February 4, 2012 at 1:11 am- -(Instead all we hear is “nope you’ve got it all wrong”. And when we ask for the correct information, we get “look it up yourself”, “milk before meat”, “that’s too sacred to talk about with non-believers”.
Should not you, as a member of mrm, be responsible to get the facts correct, and to find all the facts before you put out conclusions, or do you believe it is the Christian thing to do to repeat conclusions based on partial truths?
I am not asking you to believe like us, I am just asking you to be self-responsible for what you teach about us. Remember, there are false teachers that teach the “truth” that is pleasing to their ears.
It is my belief that if a person is not willing to study on his own, he will not be convinced to change when spoon fed the truth.
Fred, news flash : none of us here are “members of MRM ” . We are ALL mere guests on this
blog ( that includes you ) .
What a way to deflect the question. I don’t know why the church has some investments, possibly to assist in the monetary income so it does not have to rely on the members all the time. Maybe its to build up a buffer to help support others in the future if outside sources collapse, like here in Australia the Coles-Myer group almost went bankrupt a couple of years ago; that consists of Target, Myer, Coles and a few other big names. If the grocery stores close where would we buy things from – so if the church owns a grocery store outright and has the means to keep it stocked then that ill be great for everyone involved. But they are my musings you dont have to believe them.
Why does it ask those who have little to pay tithing? I don’t believe that it does – I believe that its God that is asking for it to show my faith in Him and His promise found in Malachi. Those who have little are still asked to voluntarily pay tithing, and they can ask for Fast Offering assistance if and when they need it, so there is some thing there for them. I know because I have been there a number of times. They can also discuss with their bishop about exemption from tithing if they really want to.
But my question was – what is wrong with the covenants we make in the temple about consecrating our lives and everything we have to God for His purposes and doing everything He asks/requires us to do? Aren’t they the same as what you do yourself when you confirm your faith in God? Don’t you consecrate your all to Him?
I know that you believe you are consecrating everything you have to God. But you aren’t. You are consecrating everything you have to a multi million dollar corporation run by filthy rich men, some of whom have become filthy rich off members tithing. That is not of God. I do consecrate all that I have to God. It’s all his to begin with. All of it. I see LDS people all around me struggling to make it day to day financially and then a kid decides to go on a mission and they suffer further to send them. The LDS church should be fully paying for these missions instead of flashing it’s money around with new temples where they already have several, or putting in a new shopping mall etc…Which is truly building up the kingdom as you put it? You really need to research the law of consecration and see how that came about. Interesting stuff. As for covenants in the temple and promising to do, do, do……God has not asked you to wear yourself out doing and promising to the LDS church. Read the New Testament. The Truth really does set you free.
Here you are not checking the facts and telling us we dont do that. As Mike said, we are not members of MRM, We are just visiting this blog. Also many, many, many of us give quotes from prophets, presidents, The standard works etc. We can and have shown contradictions and all the LDS can do is come here and tell us we are wrong and twisting the facts. Many of us here have spent time going to LDS services , buying books like, the JoD, the seer, the Original BoM, the D and C, The pearl, Etc. Yet despite having these books and showing problems, all the LDS do is say we are wrong. A few years back I went to SLC and toured the temple area with a friend, I went to ask a tour lady a question about JS shooting 3 people with a gun, what did she do? She ignored my question and went and got a security guard, and he told me to stop asking questions that cause controversy or I will be removed.
Another time I asked a question and their was a large group of people standing next to me, the two ladies doing the tour took me and my friend away from the group, told me I was not allowed to ask these questions and made us leave. So much for the LDS being open to sharing the gospel.
Thanks Mike and Rick. You said it.
It has been a few years since this happened, but me and a friend went to a LDS Sunday service and as luck would have it, it turned out to be a GC teaching with the prophet being shown on a big screen.
We both decided and prayed before we went into the service, we will not talk to anyone or say anything unless spoken to. Sadly their was one person sitting behind us sleeping and snoring. So much for wanting to hear the message and the truth if all they came to do was take a nap.
Then after we listened and it was over, to MM’s sitting in front of us asked us what we thought? Well since they asked, I would not hold back, I had my 1920 triple combo with me and told one of them the prophet contradicted what the D anc C taught with what he said. I dont remember now what He said and how it contradicts the D and C as it has been years. But the Missionary got mad at me and said prove it? I showed him my Book and he asked me where I got it.
He really struggled with looking at the real LDS approved book and seeing the problem for himself. Yet he still choose to believe what he wanted, handed me my book back and him and his friend kept us close and would not allow us to talk to anyone. They brought us into a “private” room and we talked until they had enough and escorted us out of the building. Again, any mormon that thinks I am simply making this stuff up is more than welcome to come to my house and we will go to some LDS church’s and you will see.
Rick B says: February 5, 2012 at 2:15 pm—(I went to ask a tour lady a question about JS shooting 3 people with a gun, what did she do? She ignored my question and went and got a security guard, and he told me to stop asking questions that cause controversy or I will be removed.)
Having worked as a tour guide for the Church, I would have to say it was most likely HOW YOU SAID WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT WHAT YOU SAID. There is a big difference between someone who is truly asking a question and someone who wants to teach others that God’s Church is false.
Kind of like me here, even though I am still open to you really having something I have not yet found to be false, I am also working to teach others that they should study for themselves and not blindly follow those who want the LDS Church to be wrong.
Were not asking you to simply believe us, But we are saying, Mormons tend not to have answers and give them. Many a question has been asked and ignored by you or other mormons, and more times than not, instead of them answering them in their own words they simply provide links to websites like Fair LDS, and these are not “Official” Church sites. And before you ask what questions you ignored, let me remind you about the Video of Bill telling everyone about how the LDS do not openly teach about JS shooting 3 people or having a gun. That whole thing is a sanitized version of events, all the while you insist your church has not and does not sanitize these past events.
I was always taught about JS having a gun in gaol and firing it out of the room. It’s in the D&C and thus I was taught in seminary (ie I was somewhere between 14 and 18 yrs old). It has never been kept a secret where I live and if it’s in the seminary curriculum them it isn’t kept a secret from the teenagers.
As faras the reports of him hitting anyone with the bullets, all the reports you have are from second hand stories and cannot be substantiated, even the report that John Taylor gave (ie officially church history report) is still second hand and not substantiated. So we do not know if he hit anyone.
Still you’re trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this one.
Ralph, this is something I’ve missed. Where in your D&C does it talk about Joseph having a gun in Carthage Jail and firing it out of the room? Thanks for your help.
Rick B says: February 5, 2012 at 2:15 pm—(I went to ask a tour lady a question about JS shooting 3 people with a gun, what did she do? She ignored my question and went and got a security guard, and he told me to stop asking questions that cause controversy or I will be removed.)
Since you think it is wrong for Mormons to do it at Temple Square, you must also think it is wrong the way mrm removes posts here that they do not like. Or are you a “do as I say and not as I do” person?
Fred, Again, I do not work for MRM, I have no control over what is removed if anything at all, I have no say in the matter. I, like you have a 6 post per day with a 300 word limit. Now if your going to accuse MRM of doing that, you really should back it up.
Also I am going to do as the Mormons do. I just spoke with a friend who has access to Professional TV cameras and will be shooting some video’s. I am getting as many people as I can to do video’s of us saying, Hi, My name is….
I am a husband or a wife, I do this and that, and I believe in Jesus Only, no other god(s) exist. I believe in grace alone and no works can save me. I believe in the Bible only and no other scriptures, I dont believe God sent any man in the last 2000 years other than Jesus to be His mouth piece, and I believe in the Virgin birth and etc, and I am a mormon.
I will take full credit for everyone that makes a video, and will take all the heat. I figure if Mormons can share a different gospel other than the one Paul taught, yet claim to be Christian, I can share the gospel as I believe and claim to be Mormon. And yes People will scratch their heads and ask how this can be, Then I can share the reason I am (Cont)
Doing this. I can say, If mormons are “Christians and are sharing a false gospel, then I must be mormon if they are christian, so I/we will share our gospel and it will open things to great talks. Hopefully we will have the first of many videos posted before March. So Fred How do you like that Idea? Like it or not, here I come.
Ok Sorry Sharon,
I thought it was in Section 135 with John Taylor’s testimony. I do know he (ie John Taylor) wrote a full report and spoke about the gun somewhere as I learned about it in seminary some 20 odd years ago. Maybe that’s why I thought it was in the D&C. But it is definately in the Curch history.
As far as ‘keeping it secret’ as RickB stated, go to the D&C sunday school manual on the internet and look at lesson 32. It states quite clearly “As he (Hyrum) struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically, ‘I am a dead man.’ Joseph looked towards him and responded, ‘Oh, dear brother Hyrum!’ and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry. “ This is taught every fourth year.
The seminary manual states “The Prophet dropped down. “Oh, my poor, dear brother Hyrum.” He grabbed a six-shot pepperbox pistol, and attempted a feeble defense” Martyrs for the Truth, D&C 135. This shows it is taught to the 14-18 year olds.
So RickB, it is not hidden and is taught openly.
Here is the thing Ralph,
LDS do not like to talk about this subject, and I can mention many doctrines or teachings that LDS prophets have taught and it does not really bother them and rarely do I get any response. But as soon as I or anyone mentions JS and the gun, then the LDS come out of the wood work to defend him. Funny how that works.
We have a few Ex-lds on this blog that claim all the time, they were LDS for 40 plus years or close to it and never were taught a lot of things and things were kept hidden from them. Then as far as JS shooting people, Of course you guys claim it was second hand information, but yet you admit he used a gun. I happen to own all the hard cover copies of the History or the church you mention. So I am aware it was taught and where it was taught. The funny thing is though, It really does not matter if JS did shoot and kill someone, the fact remains, JS claimed he went to his death Calm and as a sheep goes to the slaughter. He made reference to How Jesus went to His death.
Well we know that JS was not calm and the fact that he even shoot a gun and then tried to jump out the window and showed great surprise over his brother (Cont).
(Cont) Getting shot tells me he did not know he was going to die. Then if you claim He died like Jesus, I would strongly disagree. Jesus did not even speak back, Jesus did not call for angels to save him, or try and come down from the Cross. JS, shoot at people regardless of if he did really hit them or not. Then he tried escaping. Jesus never did that, so JS cannot claim like Jesus did, I am going to my death as a sheep to the slaughter.
Also if Bill in the Video said they never mentioned any of this with the gun, then either they did not and they are not telling the whole story and keeping things back, or they really did and then we have someone else not telling the whole story, but I believe Bill, since I have seen mormons many times not tell me the whole story.
If thats true, then why is it we buy your books, go to LDS churchs, websites, talk to LDS in person, Etc and when we still dont believe since we feel the evidence is so overwhelming that your church is wrong, we are then told it’s on us and we simply choose not to believe the truth? Or we need to pray more? Or somehow it’s on us? We did not study enough, or read enough or what ever. Or why is it people like the Ex Mormons who come forward and say, I was mormon for 40 years and saw for myself whats really taught and thats why I left, they are accused of attacking the Church?
Ralph, thank you for the clarification. For a minute I was wondering if there were different versions of the D&C or if I just missed that information! The narrative is in volume 6 of History of the Church. I had an interesting experience as a visitor to the Carthage Jail Visitors Center (well, I’ve had many interesting experiences at the Carthage Jail Visitors Center, but I’ll only talk about one today). At the end of the tour of the jail, someone in the group (not me) asked about Joseph having a gun and using it during the attack. The elder who was leading the tour group denied that Joseph had a gun. So I explained that the information could be found in History of the Church and asked the elder if the Visitors Center had a set of the books on site. He said they did, and invited several of us back to the main room of the Visitors Center to find and show him the information about Joseph firing a gun. When we arrived back at the main room the elder said the books were in an office in the back, so I asked him to bring out volume 6. He disappeared for a couple of minutes and reappeared empty-handed. He told us that they had all of the volumes of History of the Church except volume 6. The elder continued to insist that Joseph did not have or fire a gun during “the Martyrdom.” Period. Without volume 6 of History of the Church there was little more I could do to set the record straight, so I encouraged the elder to look up the narrative (History of the Church 6:616-21) once he found the missing volume. I often thought about donating a full set of HOC to the Carthage Jail Visitors Center, but had no confidence that it would make any difference regarding the information provided by the sisters and elders as they continued to lead tours of the jail.
Rick B says: February 8, 2012 at 8:11 am—(If thats true, then why is it we buy your books, go to LDS churchs, websites, talk to LDS in person, Etc and when we still dont believe since we feel the evidence is so overwhelming that your church is wrong, we are then told it’s on us and we simply choose not to believe the truth? Or we need to pray more? Or somehow it’s on us? We did not study enough, or read enough or what ever. Or why is it people like the Ex Mormons who come forward and say, I was mormon for 40 years and saw for myself whats really taught and thats why I left, they are accused of attacking the Church?)
Many people want something to be true so badly that they can find the answer they want anywhere they look. I know Mormons and exMormons that are like that.
Thing is, I know what I have found by not stopping my study when I find the answer I want. I keep going until I get to the answer. I have trouble excepting any answer, so I keep looking.
Since others have already spoken about these, I give you what the Church has always hidden in plane site. ;>)
1 of 3
Arms Given to the Prisoners.
After receiving these assurances, Wheelock prepared to visit the prison. The morning being a little rainy, favored his wearing an overcoat, in the side pocket of which he was enabled to carry a six shooter, and he passed the guard unmolested. During his visit in the prison he slipped the revolver into Joseph’s pocket. Joseph examined it, and asked Wheelock if he had not better retain it for his own protection.
This was a providential circumstance, as most other persons had been very rigidly searched. Joseph then handed the single barrel pistol which had been given him by John S. Fullmer, to his brother Hyrum, and said, “You may have use for this.” Brother Hyrum observed, “I hate to use such things or to see them used.” “So do I,” said Joseph, “but we may have to, to defend ourselves;” upon this Hyrum took the pistol.
Wheelock was intrusted with a verbal request to the commanders of the Legion to avoid all military display, or any other movement calculated to produce excitement during the Governor’s visit. He was especially charged to use all the influence he possessed to have the brethren and friends of Joseph remain perfectly calm and quiet, inasmuch as they respected the feelings and well-being of the Prophet and Patriarch.
Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951], 6: 608.)
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The Assault on the Jail.
Immediately there was a little rustling at the outer door of the jail, and a cry of surrender, and also a discharge of three or four firearms followed instantly. The doctor glanced an eye by the curtain of the window, and saw about a hundred armed men around the door.
It is said that the guard elevated their firelocks, and boisterously threatening the mob discharged their firearms over their heads. The mob encircled the building, and some of them rushed by the guard up the flight of stairs, burst open the door, and began the work of death, while others fired in through the open windows.
The Prisoner’s Defense.
In the meantime Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham’s large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor’s cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door.
Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians.
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Death of Hyrum Smith.
Hyrum was retreating back in front of the door and snapped his pistol, when a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, and he fell on his back on the floor saying, “I am a dead man!” As he fell on the floor another ball from the outside entered his left side, and passed through his body with such force that it completely broke to pieces the watch he wore in his vest pocket, and at the same instant another ball from the door grazed his breast, and entered his head by the throat; subsequently a fourth ball entered his left leg.
A shower of balls was pouring through all parts of the room, many of which lodged in the ceiling just above the head of Hyrum.
The “Handsome Fight” of Joseph Smith and John Taylor.
Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire.
Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951], 6: 617.)
Many of us Christians here have the books and are aware of these teachings, we are simply saying that many LDS are not aware of them despite what you seem to think. And if you really think every LDS member is aware of them and openly tells the story when asked, Then please come visit me and I will have you go to a LDS church with me where many will openly tell you they are not aware of this and deny it ever happening. But we both know that will not happen since you dont want to hear that we are right.
Rick B says:- February 8, 2012 at 9:55 pm—(Many of us Christians here have the books and are aware of these teachings, we are simply saying that many LDS are not aware of them despite what you seem to think. And if you really think every LDS member is aware of them and openly tells the story when asked)
Yes, and they are among the ones just ripe to be fooled into thinking that the LDS Church teaches the things that many nonmembers say we teach. They then get confused and believe what “those who do not want this Church to be true”, teach.
“Yes, and they are among the ones just ripe to be fooled into thinking that the LDS Church teaches the things that many nonmembers say we teach. They then get confused and believe what “those who do not want this Church to be true”, teach.”
I have a challenge for you. Study all that has been taught by your church. All of it, including the BoM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. Then try and make some kind of sense out of it. The Bible says that God is not a man that he should lie. (Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should CHANGE HIS MIND. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?”) Look at all the wishy washy stuff the LDS church has said of God. Look at the promises the LDS god has made and then not fulfilled. So much confusion and back and forth. God also says he’s not the author of confusion. ( 1 Corinthians 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”) Mormonism tries to push aside all of the confusion by calling it “continuing revelation.” That doesn’t matter though, because it’s all confusion. If it were truly from God, the God of the Bible, it would all line up without confusion. All one really needs to do is open the Bible and ask God to reveal himself. He will.