Howard P. Kainz at First Things wrote a blog last week titled, “Mormons and Christianity: Asking the Right Questions.” Dr. Kainz reminds his readers about an article written a dozen years ago by the late Richard John Neuhaus in which Fr. Neuhaus “discussed the issue of Mormon claims to be Christian in considerable detail.” Dr. Kainz summarizes, “…if Mormonism is a variant of Christianity, [Neuhaus] writes, the differences with other Christians are enormous.”
Dr. Kainz’s blog quotes Fr. Neuhaus’ editorial to demonstrate some of these differences, then continues the story:
“In a following issue, Neuhaus was besieged by letters from Mormons, maintaining that they hold to Christian doctrines, albeit with variations. Neuhaus responded thusly: ‘If Christian doctrine is summarized in, for instance, the Apostles’ Creed as understood by historic Christianity, official LDS teaching adds to the creed, deviates from it, or starkly opposes it almost article by article.’”
Dr. Kainz then brings his readers into the present:
“In the February 2012 issue of this magazine, Steven H. Webb published ‘Mormonism Obsessed with Christ.’ He recounts how in reading the Book of Mormon for the first time he was astounded that Mormon scripture is to a great extent all about Christ—albeit a Christ reinterpreted so completely that orthodox Christians would consider it a work of fiction.”
Subsequently, Dr. Kainz suggests what he believes is “the right question” to ask Mormons:
“Evidently, the more we know about Mormonism, the more we can see that we have been asking the wrong question. From the Mormon point of view, the question to be asked is not, ‘Are Mormons Christian?’ but, in view of the alleged apostasy in early Christianity after the death of the Apostles, a more appropriate question would be: ‘Are any non-Mormons Christian?’”
Fr. Neuhaus also asked this question in his editorial a dozen years ago. And he provided an answer:
“The question as asked by Mormons is turned around: are non-Mormons who claim to be Christians in fact so? The emphatic and repeated answer of the Mormon scriptures and the official teaching of the LDS is that we are not. We are members of ‘the great and abominable church’ that was built by frauds and impostors after the death of the first apostles.”
One example from Mormon scripture that Fr. Neuhaus may have been thinking of is a Book of Mormon passage that says all of those who do not belong to the “the church of the Lamb of God” (identified by Mormon leaders as the LDS Church) in fact belong to “the church of the devil” (1 Nephi 14:10).
Of course, while the Book of Mormon scripture remains, the public face of Mormonism has changed in the last 12 years; there is a new answer to the question. Robert Millet addressed this in an article posted on the Mormon Newsroom blog in February (2012). In “Traditional Christianity and the Latter-day Saints” Dr. Millet writes,
“6. Because Latter-day Saints believe that many truths and powers were lost from the earth following the deaths of the apostles, do they feel they are the only true Christians?
“No. We see ourselves as a part of the larger Christian world, and we have no difficulty acknowledging that our Christian friends worship the same God we do, seek the redeeming power of the same Savior we do, and enjoy the illuminating and sanctifying influence of the same Holy Spirit we do.”
It’s difficult to understand how Mormons can designate non-Mormons as “true Christians” when non-Mormons are believed to belong to “the church of the devil.” Past LDS leaders have not been reticent about placing non-Mormons outside the “true Christian” camp. Consider a few of these statements (emphasis added):
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230)
“The worshipers of Baal were far more consistent than apostate Christendom; for they had a faint hope that Baal would hear and answer them…Baal’s worshipers, therefore, with all their absurdities, approached nearer the religion of heaven, in some of their expectations, than those who falsely call themselves Christians.” (Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 1 (1850), 12-13)
“…for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid.” (Joseph F. Smith, Collected Discourses 2:305)
“In the days of Jesus, wicked and evil men separated themselves from the true Christians by defaming the name of Jesus and cursing him as a false prophet. In our day the same approach is made by ill-disposed persons to the name of Joseph Smith. The way men feel about him and his prophetic successors divides true believers from those who serve another master.” (Bruce R. McConkie, “The Caravan Moves On,” Ensign (Conference Edition), 11/1984, 82)
In his answer to the “true Christian” question, Dr. Millet disagrees with a long line of LDS leaders – and with a reasonable interpretation of LDS scripture. In the context of historic Mormonism, his comments are nonsensical. Not only has Dr. Millet ignored the “church of the devil” issue, but he has falsely claimed that there is no substantial difference between the Godhead of Mormonism and the God of Christianity (a topic for another blog).
When I talk to Mormons I don’t ask, “Are Mormons Christian?” or, “Are any non-Mormons Christian?” In my opinion, the better question to ask is, “Who do you say that Jesus is?” (see Matthew 16:15-16)
fred,
“The message being, there are many “Christian clubs” out there and there is a good chance that the group here do not all belong to the same club.”
Mormons really need to get over the “club/church” mentality. Tell me, did Jesus teach in a building? Where did he teach the masses? It wasn’t in an LDS meeting house. Mormons are so hung up on a “one true church/club” get over it already. Many here have told you more than once that being a Christian isn’t about which denomination you belong to, it’s about knowing and following the True and Living Christ of the Bible. You follow the Mormon Christ fred. There’s a difference. The LDS church is nothing but a “good ol’ boys club” so for you to complain about different Christian denominations/clubs borders on ridiculous. What’s interesting to me is how the core doctrines of Christianity are the same in every Christian denomination. Mormonism is off the wall with it’s teachings about core Christian doctrines.
“And you do not want to face the idea that the people who force you to believe in the manmade definition of the trinity are the false teachers. ”
Please show with evidence that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is man made. Have you ever studied the Council of Nicea? I too used to just believe what I was told about this in my LDS meeting house without actually studying it out for myself. Why don’t you check out John 1:1-3
While you are at it, check out these verses from the Book of Mormon:
(cont)
cont…
“And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD, without end. Amen.” (2 Nephi 31:21)
“and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is ONE ETERNAL GOD, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.” (Alma 11:44)
“For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. BUT THERE IS A GOD, AND HE IS CHRIST, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time. (2 Nephi 11:7)
The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son–And they are ONE God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5)
How about the D&C:
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (Section 20:28)
Pearl of Great Price:
“And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.” (Moses 1:6)
Please explain these Mormon scriptures on the Holy Trinity fred.
“Since “true Christians” teach and believe that you can do no evil after being saved,”
I’m still waiting for your evidence from Christian scripture.
Fred,
You really need to stop playing Games, like asking us which Christian club/denomination you need to join.
You LDS have dodged this question put to you so many times I have lost count, and I suspect you will dodge it again. If you ask us which Club/denomination to join, then I will ask you, what LDS club/denomination should I join? The LDS, the RLDS, the FLDS, or one of the other splinter LDS groups and why? You claim yours is correct, but they all claim they are correct. You claim you have prophets and on-going revelation, but these other LDS groups do also.
You claim you prayed about yours, so did they, you claim you have the BoM, the D and C, the Pearl, they do To. So which one do I join? They all have so much in common and sound alike, they all agree on a lot, so how do you know yours is correct and they are wrong? What evidence did you use?
You cannot use evidence such as prayer, or prophets or revelation since these other LDS groups used that also, it all simply cancels out the others. So please do tell us Fred, or any other LDS out their.
You guys claim we cannot be true Christians since we have many denominations, yet you guys avoid answering that question about yourselves. Their is a word for that, again Jesus used it and I will give you a hint, It starts with the letter H________ , and it is 9 letters long, any idea?
fred,
I would agree with the others here when they say, basically, that you just don’t process information in a normal fashion.
We answer you to the point of growing weary and you still don’t get it.
I’ll try one of your points……..again.
There is no one true church in terms of a denomination. The “Church” is the mystical Body of Christ peopled by all those who are born again by the Spirit of God. That’s it fred. Can you grasp that. Repeat it out loud.
Here we go again. Which of the 100 or so sects of Mormonism is the real Mormonism?
Now as to Paul’s “different” versions of his conversion experience. The same elements are in each of the accounts. It would take a Mormon to come up with that fantasy in order to bring some legitimacy to Joseph Smith’s tall tale vision story. The changes in his accounts are not subtle. They are major and so different that it’s not even the same story. Nice try however.
Finally, did you really attend a Christian church at some point in your life? You have demonstrated over-and-over again that you not only lack even a basic understanding of Christianity, you don’t understand Mormonism either.
You need to study to find the truth…………..ah forget it………..it won’t do you any good. Just do your “Night of the Walking Dead” imitation and just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
Fred, I’ll tell you something, You answer my two questions I asked you. First one is why you can say your Christian but I cannot be LDS if we supposedly believe the same thing.
2. Why you take issue with Christians having denominations but not LDS having them.
You answer in detail, not with vague reply’s then you tell me what exactly the problem is you have with Paul, give details of what bothers you, not simply say, it is a problem, then I will give you a detailed answer as to why the first 9 visions are a problem, but Paul’s vision is not a problem.
But you must first answer me.
Rick B;
1.
LDS is a very specific Christian denomination, not like the often repeated of,” There is no one true church in terms of a denomination. The “Church” is the mystical Body of Christ peopled by all those who are born again by the Spirit of God”. I cannot claim to be a Methodist or Baptist etc., yet I truly say that I am a follower of Jesus, that I am a Christian.
With your definition and your other teachings here, the people of your “body of Christ” worship and study anywhere they feel comfortable; and since you claim there is no one authorized by God to speak for Him on the earth, you have to go to each and every person, check them out and see if they agree with you.
2.
Again, you show how much you are really interested in the truth. If I were speaking to a breakaway group of God’s restored Church I would speak differently than I speak to pseudo Christians that are doing Satan’s work of trying to destroy God’s Church.
+++++++++++
Falcon;
I see you gloss over inconvenient truths in your own religious choices by looking away from them and focusing on what you see as other people’s problems. Reread Paul’s accounts of his Firstvision and see if you still think what you said holds water. That is, if you are willing and able to grow by admitting you made a mistake.
+++++++
Rick B:
I have no problem with Paul’s FirstVision; my problem is with the double standard you folks use to decide if you will accept someone as a Prophet of God. My problem is on how you folks do not use the same standard on Paul’s vision as you do on Joseph Smith’s vision.
fred
Fred, you keep stating that you seek the truth, your all about the truth and nothing but the truth.
I am going on record to say, I dont believe you, I am going to say, that if you dont answer my questions, then that tells me you really dont want an answer about Paul. Also I dont think you will answer me because you know I know the answer and you dont like the answer.
Fred said
Show me from Scripture where it teaches we MUST meet in some building and study certain verses or certain subjects. It does not teach that.
Fred said
Show me from Scripture where God tells us we must listen to modern day prophets, You cannot and will not do it. But I can show you from scripture where it says, God spoke to us in these last days by His son. Jesus is the son of God and he spoke to us and still does speak to us, so you are wrong, and it shows you dont read the bible.
Let me see if I can figure this out. Or at least give you a reasonable answer. This is in response to rick B. 2:57 PM blog.
I believe that Jesus is my Redeemer. He is the son of God. This is the basics. Anything else may enhance or diminish what may be the true understanding of God. We are suppose to know God and Jesus whom He has sent. (That’s a verse somewhere)
Now I am not a Catholic Christian, a Lutheran Christian, a Methodist Christian, a Baptist Christian or any other denominational Christian. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. I do not belong to the fundamentalist, Reorganized, reformed or strangite LDS church. I joined the church and that is why I am a latter day saint. I believe in Christ and have faith in Him .
In a nutshell what I am trying to say is that I call myself LDS because I am a member and a Christian because of my faith and belief.
You are not a member but you do (I hope) have faith and belief in Jesus Christ. Which is why you are a Christian.
I say it this way because there is a difference between faith and belief. I can have belief in Jesus but still have the same bad habits that I had before. I can put my faith in Him and realize what I did before no longer brings the joy I thought it did.
As far as Paul conversion No two people will give the same account of an incident in their life. I believe the discrepancy is that one account says they saw the light- Cont
but did not understand the voice, another that Paul and all his companions saw a light and fell and another that they heard a sound but saw no one. I see no big deal except for anyone who wants to take issue with it.
With Joseph Smith account of the first vision I did not Know that there were 9 versions. I know someone did a study of some of them but have not seen or read about it. I only know that the accounts were written for different audiences(I think I am using the term correctly).
I hope you understand how I see things and hope that I was able to make my writing understandable.
Rick B;
I see you have not kept your promise to answer my questions like you said you would do after I answered your questions.
You have only attacked my answers.
Are you going to keep your word?
fred
Clyde,
I would say to you that the different versions of Joseph Smith’s first vision wasn’t written for different audiences. Please research this out because in several of the vision stories, he did not see God the Father at all. I won’t go into it all here because I want you to really research it all yourself so that you can actually absorb it. One question I would ask is: ” Why didn’t you know there were several versions of Joseph Smith’s first vision?” I didn’t know this either and this is one part of Mormonism that makes or breaks the religion in my opinion.
fred,
Why are you ignoring me? I’m waiting for an explanation of the Holy Trinity verses in Mormon scripture, and also evidence that Christians believe and teach that they can do no evil after being saved.
Let me try and see if I can explain to Clyde what this whole issue boils down to .
I personally tread lightly with anyone who claims that they are a Christian because I
realize that they have real feelings tied to their belief that they’re following Jesus. I
can’t see in their heart, so I must ask questions. Since we’re referencing Mormonism
here I appreciate it that Mormons carry a Bible and recognize it’s importance in
studying what the New Testament reveals about Jesus and a relationship with Him.
One truth that concerns all of us is Jesus’ warning about false prophets. Those who
follow Jesus can be deceived into embracing doctrines that appear similar to the
truth, in fact the most successful false prophets introduce ( 2Pt2:1) inaccurate
teachings by often times mixing them in with many true teachings. When these
inaccurate teachings concern who God is or how a person receives eternal life then
it becomes a false gospel and can be spiritually lethal . False prophets can be moral
individuals , they can stress being kind and good to others, they can claim to represent
the True God , to relay His spiritual truths to everyone . Yet they introduce their own
ideas as spiritual truths , ideas they truely feel God has given them , but He has’nt . To
those who sustain these prophets and embrace their false teachings a judgement time
awaits them. The following scriptures shed light on these traits of false prophets:
Jer. 14:14-15; Micah 3:5 ; Isa.9:16 ; Jer 23:16,21. Matt 7:15, 20-22; 2Pt 2:1 ;2Cor11:4.
Considering these warnings I need to ask a Mormon if their prophets have taught
them the truth about Jesus ? About the gospel ? So each Mormon is under obligation to
check their prophets
cont.
Since Mormon leaders have claimed that they have been personally directed by the
same Jesus who directed the apostles in the New Testament, what do we find if we
compare apostles teachings ? Clyde has testified that he believes in Jesus, has faith
and follows Jesus , and while I must be slow in judging him for this , I can evaluate his
prophets teachings on God, Jesus . Now I have to assume he believes his leaders have
not taught false doctrine, that they have been trustworthy guides in spiritual truths.
When we look into the Bible , especially the New Testament , do we see the apostles
teaching, defining clearly that God the Father is an exalted man , that He was not
always the Almighty Creator ? That He is a polygamist who with His wives sexually
produce spirit children ? That Jesus is only the first one of these spirit children, with
Lucifer being literally His brother? Is this the Jesus revealed by the New Testament?
Now since only the true Jesus has the ability to save us from our sins then if we
embrace these teachings by Mormon apostles can we be saved ? I don’t see how . That’s only reasonable ( hence Paul’s warning in 2Cor 11 :4 ). What about when Clyde says
we are his fellow christians ? How much is that worth ? Well, considering that Mormon
apostles have taught that my baptism is Illegal and therefore I have not received
remission of my sins and forgiveness from God ! So calling me a fellow christian is
rather strange. But I know that my relationship with Jesus and the truth about
Him is anchored in the teachings of the true apostles and thru the Holy Ghost.
Where do you believe God said He would not sand any more Prophets?
After all if we are to be on the lookout for false Prophets, we must also be on the lookout for his Prophets.
fred
Fred,
Grow up and get real, I have not replied back to you yet because you have not answered me.
Fred said
Like it or not I refuse to play games with you, you cannot back this up from Scripture and since you cannot back this up, and yet wont admit that you cannot, you really have not answered my question.
Fred the said
You said you dont have a problem with Paul’s vision. If you dont have a problem with His vision, then I guess their is nothing to say. I asked you to tell me what your problem with Paul’s vision was, you said you dont have one, so really, what can I say?
Then you say, Paul is a prophet of God, yet Paul does not say he is a prophet. If he does I missed it, so can you back that up with scripture? Last time I read Hebrews, Jesus speaks to us in these last days, and Jesus is greater than the angels and the prophets.
Rick,
fred can’t answer any questions. He reminds me a lot of Helen who used to post here. Like Helen, he’s a demanding, whiny child screaming insults and stamping his foot demanding answers to his inane questions, but then pouts and does not answer anyone elses. Posting is a two way street. Like having a conversation. I have asked him several times to back up what he says and he is not capable of doing it.
fred,
I will answer for you. The Book of Mormon is full of verses confirming the Holy Trinity because that is what Joseph Smith taught in the beginning. The man to god doctrine came out of his imagination later. If the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth, then the LDS church should still be using the 1830 edition which says:
“Behold the lamb of God, yea even the Eternal Father!” ( 1 Nephi 11:21)
” that the lamb of God is the Eternal Father and Savior of the world..” ( 1 Nephi 14:40)
Go compare these to your current BoM. See for yourself the doctrinal changes made to Joseph Smith’s most correct book.
You can’t back up the other question I asked you because there are no Christian scriptures (The Bible) that says Christians believe or teach that we are free to sin all we want to after we are Saved. The scriptures tell us just the opposite.
I hope that like Helen, you are given the ultimatum of providing evidence of what you are posting or be removed from the board.
Kate,
I agree 100 percent, as I told him, I am not playing games. answer me and I will answer you, dont answer me, or give some reply that does not answer me and call it an answer will not fly with me.
Rick B
You are playing a game. The game seems to be-You answer my question first and if I don’t like your answer I don’t have answer it or answer yours. You play this game until a new blog comes out then you don’t answer them because the blog is not viewed any more.
Clyde,
I dont play games,
You sound like your saying your Fred, You say
Why are you saying this? I never said I would answer you? Also why is it you defend Fred yet you know he does not answer questions? I’m pretty sure almost every poster here has said to Fred at least once, why are you not answering my questions? Kate was the last person to Kate was the last person to say that to him, Then I agreed with her, then you replied.
Makes me wonder about you to. In times past we have had mormons come here, get kicked off for breaking the rules, then try posting under a different name. You sure you and Fred are not the same person? You tell people to answer him, yet you never tell him to answer people.
I could put together a really long list of questions and people he has avoided. Try that with me, you wont be able to do it. This is the only question I have not answered by Him, because he has not answered me, then he said I really dont have a problem with Pauls vision. So he if does not have a problem with it, then what can I say about it?
Also was not it you crying earlier about me and Falcon posting to much? Now your crying about me not answering someone else?
Fred said
See Fred, this is why you need to read the Bible, then you would know this stuff.
The Bible says
This is twice in about a week where you have said, where in the Bible does it say….
The other time was when you asked where it says Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
Since God has spoke to us through His son, we dont need to listen to prophets or angels, Just Jesus.
If Jesus wanted your thoughts on His word to be true, He would have told us that there would be no more Prophets; instead of telling us to watch for Prophets.
FRED
Fred, When you post, your reply’s are what I call a Genesis 1:2 reply, they are with out form or substance.
fproy2222 says:
April 1, 2012 at 6:52 pm
If Jesus wanted your thoughts on His word to be true, He would have told us that there would be no more Prophets; instead of telling us to watch for Prophets.
FRED
Jesus didn’t say to “watch for Prophets”. He said to:
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
He also said:
Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
and
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Then Peter tells us:
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
and John, as well:
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
In the Old Testament, God speaks of sending his prophets to the people, but I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament where we, or even the first century Christians are told to “watch for “Prophets”. If there is such a verse, can you, Fred, or even Ralph or Clyde, or any other LDS that happens to be wandering the halls, provide it? My searches of the scriptures are not as indepth as I ‘d like, all I have right now is the internet. Please note when providing this information scriptures that I don’t recognize the authority of LDS scriptures, so please confine your responses to Biblical scripture, or writings from the early church fathers, complete with context. (con’t)
(con’t)
In other words, don’t just toss a verse or sentence out there. Try a few verses before and after, or the paragraph the sentence is found in.
Wow. I used more than 300 words.
Rae, you might not be aware of this but the reason Fred said what he did is because he uses the bible.
It is the Dry erase Bible. You simply erase the verses you dont like or agree with and add what you want.
Rae said
Rae, I’m not sure what you have read or have not read in the way of LDS scriptures. And I agree with you that the Bible does not say to watch for prophets, but just to give you a heads up, I have read all the LDS standard works, plus the J.S.T of the Bible and the lectures on faith. That verse watch for prophets is not in any of those scriptures. But if you have been following anything from Fred, dont expect to hear from him on this, he does not like to answer questions, he only asks them.
Yeah, I noticed. And I should know better, but sometimes that ol’ Missouri mule stubborness just kicks in, and off I go. It will be interesting to see what, if any, response I get. I think Fred read something and either read it wrong, or is being deliberately disingenuous. I don’t like to think that of anyone, but with some folks, and not just here, the consistency of them apparently just not getting it sadly seems to lean toward deliberation.
I’ve only read the BOM from cover to cover. The rest, I’ve read here and there. I don’t have hard copies of anything else, and I haven’t got around to reading/studying them online. Yet.
Hey Rae,
Besides talking with Mormons, I love debating atheists. One thing I find with them is they are as you said they are being deliberately disingenuous. I notice they mention the Bible and quote verse, yet either dont quote in context, or they claim to have read the Bible and have not, or they they have only read bits and pieces.
One example of what I’m talking about is this, Many atheists claim God is cruel and hateful because God destroyed the earth by flood. They say that for God to do this shows how mean and cruel he is. But they leave it at that. So then I point out, they forget to add that God had given the earth about 100 years to repent while Noah built the ark. I ask them, why do you never mention this? They tend to never reply and every time they mention God killed someone or a group of people, they never mention that God allowed them to repent before hand.
Just like with Jonah, or Pharaoh and the ten plagues, or various other times. They only mention Hod God did kill or allowed someone to die. So just like Mormons, they leave things out that changes things. When you tell a story and you purposely leave out facts leading someone to believe a certain way, yet things would change if you added more info, then that is being deceitful.
Clyde, where did you go?
You never told me why you can speak for Fred, and why we must answer Fred, but He does not need to answer us. How can you claim to be a follower of the real Jesus when you guys get called out so often for misleading people and acting the way that you do. O-yea I know, the Bible says,
This verse speaks about the actions of people who do what you guys do. How can you live with yourself?