Howard P. Kainz at First Things wrote a blog last week titled, “Mormons and Christianity: Asking the Right Questions.” Dr. Kainz reminds his readers about an article written a dozen years ago by the late Richard John Neuhaus in which Fr. Neuhaus “discussed the issue of Mormon claims to be Christian in considerable detail.” Dr. Kainz summarizes, “…if Mormonism is a variant of Christianity, [Neuhaus] writes, the differences with other Christians are enormous.”
Dr. Kainz’s blog quotes Fr. Neuhaus’ editorial to demonstrate some of these differences, then continues the story:
“In a following issue, Neuhaus was besieged by letters from Mormons, maintaining that they hold to Christian doctrines, albeit with variations. Neuhaus responded thusly: ‘If Christian doctrine is summarized in, for instance, the Apostles’ Creed as understood by historic Christianity, official LDS teaching adds to the creed, deviates from it, or starkly opposes it almost article by article.’”
Dr. Kainz then brings his readers into the present:
“In the February 2012 issue of this magazine, Steven H. Webb published ‘Mormonism Obsessed with Christ.’ He recounts how in reading the Book of Mormon for the first time he was astounded that Mormon scripture is to a great extent all about Christ—albeit a Christ reinterpreted so completely that orthodox Christians would consider it a work of fiction.”
Subsequently, Dr. Kainz suggests what he believes is “the right question” to ask Mormons:
“Evidently, the more we know about Mormonism, the more we can see that we have been asking the wrong question. From the Mormon point of view, the question to be asked is not, ‘Are Mormons Christian?’ but, in view of the alleged apostasy in early Christianity after the death of the Apostles, a more appropriate question would be: ‘Are any non-Mormons Christian?’”
Fr. Neuhaus also asked this question in his editorial a dozen years ago. And he provided an answer:
“The question as asked by Mormons is turned around: are non-Mormons who claim to be Christians in fact so? The emphatic and repeated answer of the Mormon scriptures and the official teaching of the LDS is that we are not. We are members of ‘the great and abominable church’ that was built by frauds and impostors after the death of the first apostles.”
One example from Mormon scripture that Fr. Neuhaus may have been thinking of is a Book of Mormon passage that says all of those who do not belong to the “the church of the Lamb of God” (identified by Mormon leaders as the LDS Church) in fact belong to “the church of the devil” (1 Nephi 14:10).
Of course, while the Book of Mormon scripture remains, the public face of Mormonism has changed in the last 12 years; there is a new answer to the question. Robert Millet addressed this in an article posted on the Mormon Newsroom blog in February (2012). In “Traditional Christianity and the Latter-day Saints” Dr. Millet writes,
“6. Because Latter-day Saints believe that many truths and powers were lost from the earth following the deaths of the apostles, do they feel they are the only true Christians?
“No. We see ourselves as a part of the larger Christian world, and we have no difficulty acknowledging that our Christian friends worship the same God we do, seek the redeeming power of the same Savior we do, and enjoy the illuminating and sanctifying influence of the same Holy Spirit we do.”
It’s difficult to understand how Mormons can designate non-Mormons as “true Christians” when non-Mormons are believed to belong to “the church of the devil.” Past LDS leaders have not been reticent about placing non-Mormons outside the “true Christian” camp. Consider a few of these statements (emphasis added):
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230)
“The worshipers of Baal were far more consistent than apostate Christendom; for they had a faint hope that Baal would hear and answer them…Baal’s worshipers, therefore, with all their absurdities, approached nearer the religion of heaven, in some of their expectations, than those who falsely call themselves Christians.” (Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No. 1 (1850), 12-13)
“…for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid.” (Joseph F. Smith, Collected Discourses 2:305)
“In the days of Jesus, wicked and evil men separated themselves from the true Christians by defaming the name of Jesus and cursing him as a false prophet. In our day the same approach is made by ill-disposed persons to the name of Joseph Smith. The way men feel about him and his prophetic successors divides true believers from those who serve another master.” (Bruce R. McConkie, “The Caravan Moves On,” Ensign (Conference Edition), 11/1984, 82)
In his answer to the “true Christian” question, Dr. Millet disagrees with a long line of LDS leaders – and with a reasonable interpretation of LDS scripture. In the context of historic Mormonism, his comments are nonsensical. Not only has Dr. Millet ignored the “church of the devil” issue, but he has falsely claimed that there is no substantial difference between the Godhead of Mormonism and the God of Christianity (a topic for another blog).
When I talk to Mormons I don’t ask, “Are Mormons Christian?” or, “Are any non-Mormons Christian?” In my opinion, the better question to ask is, “Who do you say that Jesus is?” (see Matthew 16:15-16)
In the last few decades we have witnessed a shift within Mormonism . This shift is
necessary if Mormonism is going to thrive and be accepted as a Christian church
in our society, thus it is important that some of the doctrines revealed by past Mormon
prophets and apostles be denied, dodged, or downplayed , while at the same time
an alibi has to be crafted that acquits these men of teaching false doctrines. To meet
this need prominent Mormons like BYU prof Millet have stepped forward . He’s well
trained and qualified to act as a PR point man in this endeavor. I’ve read some of
Mr. Millet’s writings , they are well crafted to meet this goal of Mormonism’s attempt
to be accepted as not just christian but the true Christians today. Problem is he is
not a General Authority, and thus he offers only his own opinion , and to me that
does’nt buy much . I think the quote by Brigham Young that Sharon cited above
is clear enough .
My friend Andy Watson had a project for a time where by he would attend Mormon wards on Sunday and go to, what I’d call, an inquiry class. On one such occasion the class was being led by an elderly gentleman. When it was time for questions Andy raised his hand and after being called on said, “Hello, my name is Andrew Watson. I am a Christian. I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and believe that my salvation is secure due to my faith in Him and His finished work on the cross. So what can Mormonism do for me?” The old man pondered the question and then said that Mormonism could do “nothing” for Andy.
Interesting answer, don’t you think? The elderly gentleman was of the opinion, it would seem, that faith in Jesus was sufficient for a person to obtain eternal life and that Mormonism could add nothing to what Jesus had done on the cross. I don’t know where he learned this, but he had the right answer. Maybe the old man had a revelation and didn’t even know it. But he expressed it to the entire class. Funny how the Spirit of God works, isn’t it?
Now of course I always go back to the same basic questions when it comes to the issue of who’s a Christian and who isn’t. It’s basic and fundamental, “Who is God?” That can be expanded to, “Who is Jesus?” The third question is, “How can I be saved?”
There are religious groups that see Jesus as an “ascended master”. Some see Jesus as a great teacher, a moral leader and even a prophet. Others see Jesus as a historical figure only.
Mormons don’t acknowledge Jesus as God. Christians acknowledge Jesus as God incarnate. That’s a pretty wide gulf.
Sometimes I think that it is not what you believe about Jesus but what you do in life. I once heard a story about the first time christians associated with the Japanese culture. Christians at first saw them as christian. The Japanese were Zen-Buddhist. What I got from the story that there was almost nothing that christianity could have done to make the society better than it already was. Figuring out what to say to convert the people to christianity would make an interesting story. To define christianity in a certain dogma limits the way you see the way people lead their lives.
Personally I believe it has everything to do with who God is. Who Jesus is. If we don’t have God and his Son right, nothing else matters. Jesus warns us about false prophets and false Christs.
Matthew 24:24
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”
So following any old christ and just living a good life won’t do. Our works can’t Save us. Mormonism has added so much to the Gospel of Christ that it is not even recognizable to a true Christian. Christianity isn’t recognizable to a Mormon either. I’ve been on both sides of this. It’s true that Mormonism teaches a great apostasy, which means all people claiming to be Christian (except Mormons) belong to the church of the devil.
Robert Millet says:
“No. We see ourselves as a part of the larger Christian world, and we have no difficulty acknowledging that our Christian friends worship the same God we do, seek the redeeming power of the same Savior we do, and enjoy the illuminating and sanctifying influence of the same Holy Spirit we do.”
He is either being dishonest or is extremely ignorant of Mormon teachings and doctrines. Christians and Mormons don’t worship the same God and the nature of Jesus is ABSOLUTELY not the same. After all, the council of Nicea changed the nature of God right? Made up the Holy Trinity right? This is what Mormons believe. So the nature of God and Jesus had to be restored by Joseph Smith according to Mormons. The thing that bothers me most is that people reading his answer, who are not familiar with Mormonism, will believe his lie as truth.
Clyde said
You said you think? Well your thinking wrong and will end up separated from God for all of eternity as a result. If you simply read the Bible you will know this, God is clear in where He stands on this issue. He said He places His name above His word. Also we see in the Bible people getting it wrong on who God is and who Jesus said He was, and they were told they Err in Scripture and are going to hell as a result. You simply cannot believe what you want and expect to be Ok.
Nice try Clyde. Even your own leaders teach that living a moral lifestyle is not
enough to get a person to the highest heaven and supposedly become a God .
We really don’t have a religious department of regulation and licensing that, by law, terms are defined. That would be something that would be very helpful in identifying which groups meet the criteria and which groups don’t. I could list, like I have several times, eight to ten basic beliefs of Christianity. They’re the basics of what a Christian denomination would affirm. Mormonism would affirm none of them.
The stakes don’t get much higher then a person’s eternal destiny. People join Mormonism without even knowing that the religion preaches a different god, a different Jesus, a different Holy Spirit and a different plan of salvation.
Kate’s quote from Robert Millet really gets me agitated. How could he make such an ignorant statement. Now he can say that but examine the quote carefully. He believes that the god of Mormonism is the real deal. So he’s saying that we worship the Mormon god, the Mormon Jesus and are guided by the Mormon Holy Spirit despite the fact that we don’t acknowledge the Mormon deity. Millet is doing what Mormonism teaches and that is to obfuscate in order to deceive. Look at the quote again with that in mind and you’ll see his strategy.
“No. We see ourselves as a part of the larger Christian world, and we have no difficulty acknowledging that our Christian friends worship the same God we do, seek the redeeming power of the same Savior we do, and enjoy the illuminating and sanctifying influence of the same Holy Spirit we do.”
Bunch of lying snakes!
clyde,
Your remarks regarding the behavior of the Japanese does reveal a Mormon view regarding the paradigm of grace and works.
What you are saying is that these Japanese Zen-Bud. exhibited good behavior so that would be looked on favorably by God and could be counted to them as righteousness. I see that as a Mormon influenced point-of-view because in Mormonism behavior is everything. Christ gets added on to the Mormons final behavioral assessment so that worthiness is achieved.
I would ask, did those Japanese Zen-Bud. ever sin? If they did, how would they gain forgiveness for those sins? Maybe you’re thinking of a + and – type system where a person is either up or down against the house.
Actually it doesn’t really matter what you think because God is sovereign and it’s His program. To-that-end, He determined that a blood sacrifice was necessary to atone for sin. In His love and mercy, He took our sins on Himself at the cross. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice; without spot or blemish.
This is why it is important for Mormons to recognize who Jesus is. Seeing Him as the spirit offspring of a father & mother god who live on or near the planet Kolob isn’t going to get anyone saved.
When Robert Millet makes a statement like he did, He is misleading Mormons into thinking that they know the qualified Savior. The fact is, they don’t.
You may follow most of the teachings of Christ and still be a good Christian, yet there are things the devil has used the teachings of man to lead you a little astray with. One of the biggies is that you say you must follow the devil inspired, manmade doctrine of the trinity to be a “true Christian”.
With more study and less preconclusion as to what you want the answer to be, you will find that the teachings talked about here will fit together like Supplementary Angles.
fred
Fred, again you missed the mark . Mormon leaders have issued a man made trinity
doctrine.
You may follow what you think are the restored teachings of Christ and still be a good Mormon, yet there are things the devil has used – the teachings of man – to lead you a little astray. One of the biggies is that you say you must follow the devil inspired, manmade doctrine of the many gods to be a “true Mormon”.
With more study and less preconclusion as to what you want the answer to be, you will find that the teachings talked about here (on MRM/Coffee/Bible) will fit together like Supplementary Angles.
-reversed quote of fproy
I have discussed this “Christians aren’t real Christians view of LDS” in topics about LDS being Christian. TJayT and I discussed it pretty thoroughly. All the quotes Sharon used are the reason I think LDS, if they are going to take “Christian”, should just take it all the way and say “we are the ONLY REAL Christians.” I don’t mean to break this topic open again. It just seems so obvious.
I’m not talking about what TJayT or any other particular LDS member thinks or believes. Like so many, if not all topics here, what the Christians here on Coffee take issue with is the LDS Institution – its teachings. Its teachings are clear. They may be viewed as being different by Millet and other particular believers, but the record speaks for itself. Read the BoM, the Gospel Principles, Missionary Lessons, and just about anything else and it is clear that – just as fundamentalist LDS are not real LDS, are in fact apostates – children of the Devil, so too, Christians are not real Christians, in fact apostates, children of the Devil. That is, as according to LDS Official Teaching.
I think it’s amazing that people who can deny the truth of Christ so much (I’m speaking about Christians from the LDS Institutional view) can end up in the middle kingdom of Heaven with the right to be visited by Christ. They deny the LDS Christ and thus the Church of Christ and thus the ordinances that get you to the Celestial Kingdom back with the Heavenly Father and yet all they lose is all contact with the Father, and living with Christ. But they still get visited? Aren’t those visits going to be really awkward?
Is there anything I can do for you? Good question? If I brag about what I have done have I lost my salvation? I think it is interesting when someone says about their job. Gee they pay me for this? I would do this for free it is amazing they pay me for this.
My point is that it might be the best attitude to take towards life. You’re glorifying your God without realizing it.
In my Zen-Buddhist story I was wondering how one would go about converting them?
Falcon
You seemed to have assumed what you see as the higher ground of belief in Jesus alone. When a foreign civilization is encountered and one realizes that they have no knowledge of Jesus, what should be done?
Seek common ground and understanding of it. When you say God is sovereign and it’s His program and Jesus was the perfect sacrifice; without spot or blemish. I agree with you.
If I said that you believe that adam rebelled against God and God came up with a secondary plan that made Jesus the atonement for our sins. Would I be wrong? We were meant to live in the garden of Eden Forever? We were never supposed to take a bite of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?
The God I believe in had this all planned out. I might have created a chasm of unbelievability but where does it not make me a christian?
Clyde said
Clyde, Correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand what you said is, your saying that God did not know Adam and Eve would disobey and came up the plan of Jesus dying for us as a “second plan” or a plan “B”. Am I correct in thinking this is what your saying?
If thats the case, then you are wrong. The Bible tells us that God the Father sacrificed Jesus before the foundation of the world. That means Jesus was slain before hand and they knew this would happen.
So Jesus dying for us was not simply a OOOPPPP’S moment.
No what I am saying is what I have heard that some Christians believe. Where does it say Jesus was sacrificed before the foundation of the world?
Clyde,
Clyde,
It is very interesting that you have trouble seeing what Christ could offer a community who lives to a high moral standard.
Who is Jesus to you? Older brother… example… life improvement program?
Is that what it takes to be a Christian to you? Good behavior? How good does that behavior have to be? If being a Christian means good behavior, then you have to have a way to measure it so you can tell if you are a Christian yourself. What is the standard? How good are we talking here? According to your books, God has zero tolerance (D&C 1:31) and numerous ways to sin in thought word and deed (Mosiah 4:29-on).
If the purpose of your life on earth is to be tested, then you would expect comments like your: “almost nothing that christianity could have done to make the society better.”
Jesus is not a 12 step life improvement program for better societies… Jeus is SAVIOR. Everything else flows from that. What can He offer them?????? salvation! I suppose you must be confused about 1.”good” people 2. sin and it’s just consequences 3.what you think you and others actually deserve.
A Christian is someone who is forgiven.
My problem is how. How would you relate to them to get them to see what Jesus has done for them.
Clyde,
I guess you’re asking for a sales pitch maybe? One thing I would suggest is that you read the Book of Acts and see what the apostles did to relate the message of the Gospel to people. That’s the approach I believe in.
I would also say that Jesus is the message. People come under conviction by the Holy Spirit regarding their sinful state. Read the first few chapters of Romans for some additional information.
As Christians we present Christ and Him crucified.
What do Mormons present? Mormons present a message of the Mormon church. Look at the five points of the canned Mormon testimony and you’ll see clearly what Mormonism values. It values the Mormon system. That’s why Mormons get so exercised when someone “leaves the church”.
As a Christian, I’m totally unconcerned about where someone goes to church. I could care less where they choose to express their faith in Jesus.
I actually went to church on Sunday which is kind of an event for me. I went to a Lutheran church and choose it because I wanted to see how they handled, what I would call, their modern more edgy service. They actually offer three different worship services and even at my age I rather enjoy the more out-there music and approach. Anyway the pastor gave a message that I would title “Jesus is True” (see Revelation 19:11).
Here’s my point, all of the music, all of the comments by the young worship leader and the sermon was centered on Jesus. The “hook” was, “Is there someone you can think of who needs to hear about Jesus?” I can honestly say, that’s what they were interested in. They weren’t all that interested in making Lutherans but rather disciples of Jesus Christ.
I may go back and visit again.
Given the title of this article, I”m guessing that it’s written from the Mormon perspective and the answer from the perspective would have to be “no”. If looked at from a non-Mormon perspective the answer is “yes”, as Christian is defined by orthodox Christianity.
Non-Mormons reject all of the points of the Mormon testimony. We reject Joseph Smith as a prophet. We reject the BoM as inspired scripture. We reject the Mormon church as God’s true church. We reject Thomas Monson as God’s prophet. Finally, we reject the Mormon Jesus who is the spirit off-spring of a once sinful man who became a god and one of his many wives that live on or near the planet Kolob. We reject the BoA and the D&C. We reject the prophetic utterances of all of the Mormon prophets. We reject the idea that men can become gods by following the LDS formula for deification. We reject the baptism for the dead, eternal marriage and forever families. We even reject the Mormon Word of Wisdom with its dietary requirements.
So, why in the world would Mormons even begin to consider non-Mormons as “Christians”? Under what stretch of the imagination would those locked into the belief system consider non-Mormons as “Christians”.
Christians reject Mormons claim of being Christians because they don’t affirm any of the basic beliefs of Christianity. Under the Mormon definition, anyone who passed by a church at some time in their lives would be considered Christians.
So what else do non-Mormons reject in Mormonism………and therefore how could Mormons consider non-Mormons “Christians” by some dubious definition of theirs.
Christians reject the Mormon priesthood. This priesthood came about because, according to Joseph Smith, a couple of dead apostles appeared to him and one of his buddies and re-established it. In addition, Christians reject Joseph Smith’s first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth versions of his “first vision” accounts.
Christians also reject the Mormon notion that the apostle John never died and that he’s been wandering the earth for the last 2,000 years. This also begs the question of how could the gospel have been lost after the death of the apostles when one of them never died?
Mormons recognizing Christians as Christians is more than a little disingenuous. I think they are looking of a quid pro quo. In-other-words Mormons are implying that since they recognize Christians as Christians then Christians should recognize Mormons as Christians. It appears to me that Mormons have no standard for what Christianity is.
There is nothing in Mormonism that relates to Christianity. There is nothing in Christianity, that relates to Mormonism. They only similarities is that they are both religions. Mormonism has more in common with Hinduism than it does with Christianity.
It would be better said that you reject some of the Mormon ideas of Jesus. Because He is the son of God and our Redeemer that is what we have in common and that is why you are Christians as well as we are.
Falcon, I think when it comes to the definition of the term “christian” that the Mormon
church seeks to use the common dictionary definition . In doing so this stretches out
the term wide enough for them to advertise as being “christian” etc. Actually the term
“christian” has been used in so many ways as to dilute it significantly . I remember
reading years ago that in rural England ( if my memory is correct) that a bed that was
clean was a “christian bed” . I think that Sharon has a good idea in that if someone says
they’re a christian we need to dialogue with them by asking questions , and the most
important one is who is Jesus ? This is a valid question and one that is directly related
to a person’s standing with God given the presence of false prophets/apostles who
can mislead people into embracing another Jesus instead of the true one —2Cor11:4
Clyde=”My problem is how. How would you relate to them to get them to see what Jesus has done for them.”
I have to question this story of yours. You said the “Christians at first saw them as christian.” Mike R. makes a good point about the abuse of the word “Christian” with the bed example. Any Christian who determines a person being a Christian by just their actions seems to be forgetting the entire story of the Bible and the Gospel.
Others have mentioned the apparent assumption of yours that puts so much on actions over trust/faith. When you say things like, “Sometimes I think that it is not what you believe about Jesus but what you do in life.” its difficult to read you any other way. So HOW would you approach the Zen-Buddhist Japanese? With the Gospel. How would you relate to them? As a fellow sinner.
See, I don’t care how good their society looked to a bunch of foreigners, it wasn’t perfect. If it isn’t perfect, made up of perfect humans, then it’s made up of sinners. Whether you are Christian or LDS any sin completely separates you from the Father. And sinners are who the Holy Spirit is seeking with the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ come for sinners.
I’m not saying it would be easy. But I’m sure those Japanese did all kinds of things in mind/deed that the Christians didn’t see or understand.
Clyde, do you really think that there are people who are able to not sin?
Do you really think it doesn’t matter if they believe in Jesus or not to save them from their previous but somehow completely and permanently repented sins? I know you said “sometimes”, though.
Clyde=”Because He is the son of God and our Redeemer that is what we have in common and that is why you are Christians as well as we are.”
I know you have heard someone hear mention the topic or term “mormon speak” or doublespeak. An elaboration of your quote above would be “Because He is the son of God (not as a relation between two persons of the One God – Ultimate and Supreme, but as the only human whose body was procreated by the Father, otherwise just the eldest of all us “children” of God who are really just intelligences given spirit bodies by our fellow intelligence the Father) and our Redeemer (not from death, eternal separation from God, and eternal damnation to God’s Just Wrath, and not to eternal communion with the Glorious Presence of God Almighty, but just from mortality, and at best, a leg up from where we have done enough to earn our place in the upper kingdom’s of the Father’s local heaven.)” Do I even have to point out how “that is what we have in common and that is why you are Christians as well as we are.” doesn’t follow at all?
In the end the only things LDS and Christianity have in common, besides what falcon said, is the words, the buzz words – Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Salvation, Redemption, Son of God, etc., etc. But words are meaningless without their meanings. So it is meanings that count. So you can’t say that the Christian meanings of “Son of God” and “Redeemer” and the LDS meanings of them are what LDS and Christians have in common and thus put them in the same category – of any kind but the broadest, like “redemptive theist”.
Clyde,
Your quote “………you reject some of the Mormon ideas of Jesus.” isn’t quite accurate. You should have written that we “…..reject ALL of the Mormon ideas about Jesus”. There is no similarity between the Jesus invented by Joseph Smith and the Jesus who is “revealed” in the Bible; both the OT and NT.
Mormons accept the ideas about God from a man with a magic rock and a very fertile imagination.
This is in opposition to Christianity whose doctrine of the nature of God and the nature of Jesus was written about by the Church Fathers who had a direct lineage to the apostles and their teachings.
So the difference is quite clear. Mormons, I believe, are totally ignorant of the history of the first four hundred years of the Christian Church. Mormons have substituted information from LDS leadership that is not only inaccurate but nonsensical. I would also call the Mormon created take on the history of the church trite and childish. It shows no depth of understanding or even a grasp of the basic knowledge.
It does, however, reinforce what Mormons want to believe about the need for a restored gospel.
That’s why it’s just plain wrong headed for Mormons to believe that non-Mormons have anything in common with them when it comes to Christianity.
As we have pointed out endlessly, Mormons co-op some of the terms from Christianity and then want to declare that it’s all the same. The definitions of the terms and concepts seems to make no difference to Mormons. Just the fact that the words are the same is sufficient for Mormons.
Who God is and what His plan of salvation entails is the crux of the matter. They are not the same in Mormonism as in Christianity.
Mike R says: – March 27, 2012 at 10:59 pm –(who is Jesus ?); (false prophets/apostles)
You left out the part about FALSE TEACHERS.
Like the ones that got together and decided to add the definition of the trinity to God’s Word.
By adding this false idea to God’s Word, they take many truths away from the Bible and the rest of God’s Word.
Then those who are deceived into believing this false teaching become false teachers themselves.
fred
Clyde said
Clyde, You know as well as the rest of us, that we do not believe the same thing, you have a different gospel and it was given to JS by an angel, what did Paul say in Gal 1:8-9 about that?
Also I have said this many times and will say it again, If I dressed up like a MM and put on an elder badge, went door to door and said I am from the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, But then gave the gospel as I believe it and said I reject JS, The BoM, The D and C, The Pearl, the Mormon prophets, I believe in grace alone, trinity, Ect.
You guys would throw a fit and say I cannot say and do that. Well according to you and many Mormons we believe the same thing as far as the terms go. once we dig deeper into the meaning we find we dont believe the same thing. Also why is it, RLDS and FLDS cannot be called Mormons, when they do believe in the BoM, the D and C, JS as the founding prophet?
They believe closer to you than we do, yet they cannot be called LDS, But we dont believe even close to what you do, and you guys want to be called Christian. You know, their is a word for that, Jesus used it many times, I will give you a hint, it starts with the letter (H). Can you guess that word, it fits mormons. Also when I meet any LDS on the street, I will tell them I am LDS.
rick,
I think you’re right. If Mormons want to play that game then I guess you could call yourself a Mormon. Isn’t that Robert Millet’s point after all?
What rank and file Mormons need to understand is that the Joseph Smith’s fantasy of the “restored” gospel has no basis in historical fact.
I know, Mormons like to trot out the various councils that were convened in the first 400 hundred years of the Church and make some big deal out of it. I’m going to help Mormons out here. Think of the councils as “General Conference”. How’s that?
We have enough of the writings of the Church Fathers and information regarding the early General Conferences of the Christian church, that we know what was going on. It doesn’t support the notion of the lost gospel and hence the need for a restored gospel.
This was Joseph Smith’s ego on steroids. Unfortunately his confidence drew people to him, along with their ignorance. Ignorance begets ignorance and that’s why there is a need for a progressive on-going adjustment program in Mormonism.
Rick B says: – March 28, 2012 at 8:42 am – ( when I meet any LDS on the street, I will tell them I am LDS.)
I see you do not think you have to tell the truth.
Since “true Christians” teach and believe that you can do no evil after being saved, YOU MUST NOT BE SAVED.
fred
Fred said
Fred you really need to stop spewing crap and support things with facts.
What did I lie about? What Christians said we can do no evil after being saved?
[Some content removed. Rick, please do not post moderation questions/concerns as comments in the discussion threads. Please direct any such questions to moderators[at]mrm[dot]org. Thank you.]
“Since “true Christians” teach and believe that you can do no evil after being saved”
This is what I was taught my entire life. How beautiful the Truth really is. I didn’t understand that Christians believe they are sinners and in need of a Savior. I didn’t understand that Christians are still sinners, but their sin is covered by the blood of Christ. Does that mean that Christians are “free” to sin all they like? Absolutely not. We all struggle with sin, but rather than try and Save myself through works and denial that I am a sinner, I have put my life and faith in Jesus. Didn’t he die to Save me? What a slap in the face to disrespect that or to think that I can take away all that he did for me and Save myself. After all that we can do right? Then Jesus will do the rest……this is one of the biggest lies. Mormons don’t understand Salvation or the Cross. That’s why we see inane comments like the one above.
“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:1-2).
“And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.” (1 Pet. 2:24).
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord,” (Rom. 6:23).
Just another difference between Christians and Mormons.
Kate,
Fred says we can sin and do evil, I think when he says that, he really means Mormons that think they are Christians believe that. I say that because they believe the Bible is corrupt and many plain and precious parts are missing and that the Bible is correct only in so far as it is translated correctly.
Because when I read the Bible, I read verses that say, all men are Liars, are hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked, No one is good, we are are sinners, we are evil and wicked. I read these things, so Fred cannot honestly believe we can say we are saved an no longer wicked. The Bible never teaches that, the Bible also says, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, we will be forgiven.
What does it mean by, IF WE? it means we MIGHT NOT, confess our sins. It means we live in sin and do sin. So Fred has no clue what we believe, yet he tells us that he knows what we believe and has no evidence or facts to back up what he says.
Rick,
Are you saying that the Christians that teach that idea are not really Christians?
Then you are saying that Kate is not a Christian;
[“Since “true Christians” teach and believe that you can do no evil after being saved”
This is what I was taught my entire life. How beautiful the Truth really is. I didn’t understand that Christians believe they are sinners and in need of a Savior.]
Your truth and her truths must be different truths.
And you are the one that said you would lie about being LDS.
fred
Rick B says: – March 28, 2012 at 11:22 am – (the Bible also says, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, we will be forgiven.)
I have seen people try to explain how confessing our sins is not doing something for our own salvation and I have never seen one that holds up under the test.
Do you want to try to explain why confessing our sins is not a “works”?
fred
Fred, sorry but you missed it again . Apparently you fail to grasp the fact that
false prophets/apostles are false teachers, hence I left nothing out . Also, you
don’t seem to understand that much of your own doctrine about God/Jesus
was created by a council of men who have run way past what Jesus’ apostles
preached . This is not new behavior as men claiming to be endorsed by Jesus
have proceeded to introduce their own ideas about God/Jesus and then attempt
to pass them off as “gospel truth ” — 2 Jn 9 . You’re in the same boat with your
apostles . Thank goodness there’s a way out for you. Jesus is so wonderful ! Heb1:1-2
Let me clarify, I was taught as a Mormon that Christians think once they are Saved, they are free to sin all they want to because they are Saved. Nothing could be further from the truth. All one has to do is trust in the teachings of the Bible. It’s all right there. Jesus died for my sins, why would I ever want to just freely sin? How disrespectful! I guess the scriptures I posted went over someone’s head…..I guess my point is that Mormons are taught all sorts of things about what Christians believe, but have not done their homework. Christians have no problem doing the homework on Mormonism before claiming something.
fred,
“Since “true Christians” teach and believe that you can do no evil after being saved, YOU MUST NOT BE SAVED.”
Where are you getting this information? You said this so back it up with evidence and Christian scripture. We all have to do that with the teachings of Mormonism, it’s only fair that you are required to do the same. Show me where this is taught as Christian doctrine.
Please do some research before you post. Your inane one liners are getting really old.
What I really feel like is one of those muslims or Christians in Spain who would dialogue just to get an understanding of how they could get along. Then other Muslims or Christian from outside the region would come along a tell them not to do that because it is impossible to get along and there is nothing in common.
I admire people who change. What seems so interesting is when they react to a different society. While I was in the navy there were friends who kept there standards high. They were my bible thumper friends. One of them went on liberty and came back and threw his bible overboard. He was an admirable fellow, a great guy to know, who just chucked it all. I wonder what would have been the right thing to do for him.
I know that we are hopelessly separated from God. I also know that He has provided a way so we can return to Him. Some people find it easy to have faith in Jesus and follow the straight and narrow. Others seem to walk along the edge about to fall off. Both are setting there standards high and living in the world but are not of the world (I hope I got that right).
One more thing when you reference Gal. 1:8-9 how do you know that after 1900 years that the gospel you preach now isn’t the other gospel that Paul Warned About?
fred,
You need to study more to find the truth about the Doctrine of the Trinity. You have been deceived by the wisdom and traditions of men……………………..
sigh, please forgive me fellow posters but sometimes you have to reduce yourself to someone’s level in order to communicate. I find that real information doesn’t penetrate this one’s mind.
clyde,
I don’t follow you here”
“……….how do you know that after 1900 years that the gospel you preach now isn’t the other gospel that Paul Warned About?”
It’s pretty simple. Read the Bible. Paul does a compare and contrast routine in his writing. Tell you what, start with the Book of Acts and read through the Book of Revelation. The Gospel is there. Paul keeps repeating it.
Do you find anything about God once being a man and that men can become gods? Is there anything there about millions perhaps billions of gods? Is there descriptions of Christian temples and the priesthood?
Mormons have been pulling this con about things missing. There’s nothing missing. The burden of proof is on Mormons to produce evidence regarding missing portions of the Gospel. Did you know that space aliens appeared shortly after Jesus ascension so that they could take the Gospel message to the people on Kolob? It’s true! I don’t have to prove it, I just have to claim it. That’s the way it works. It’s called “revelation”. No proof is necessary.
fred said: “I have seen people try to explain how confessing our sins is not doing something for our own salvation…”
What’s next….”thinking” is works?
Asking for forgiveness is a “work”?
That’s a new one especially since the Bible is clear that we are saved by faith in Jesus plus nothing else and that any works we do are as a result of the sanctification process. I think First John 1:6-10 pretty much puts it all into perspective.
This “confession is a work” nonsense is the product of people having no idea of what the Bible says, how to properly interpret what it says, and living out the Word.
First John 2:1-6 gives us the proper relationship between grace, faith, salvation/justification, and the process of sanctification. The blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from our unrighteous acts.
John makes the point that if we have received God’s gift of eternal life our behavior will conform to God’s standards. We will fail often and that is why the need for the continual cleansing.
Our behavior doesn’t cleanse us.
Kate and all;
Ya’ll walk around declaring whether or not the folks who claim to be Christian and follow this teaching are Christian or not. You just want to pick on me for being the messenger, and ignore the message.
The message being, there are many “Christian clubs” out there and there is a good chance that the group here do not all belong to the same club. Since all of you want me to give up God’s Church, I must know which club teaches the real truth.
+++++++++++
Stanley2 & falcon;
1 John 2:1–6 is a good indicator that you must do something to keep from sinning, cause if you do not do something, you will not be in Him and a liar [like saying you will deceive people by saying you are something you are not].
So, ya’ll are added to the list of people who cannot, or will not explain why confessing our sins is not a “works”.
++++++
Falcon,
Since you think that the differences in JosephSmith’s FirstVision prove him to be a false prophet, why is Paul a true Prophet since his different accounts of his FirstVision are not the same, [just like JosephSmith’s FirstVision]?
++++++++++
Mike R – (Apparently you fail to grasp the fact that false prophets/apostles are false teachers)
And you do not want to face the idea that the people who force you to believe in the manmade definition of the trinity are the false teachers. After all, you have invested so much time and effort and works into following that way of being saved.
There is so much that Satan does not want you to know. Take that manmade false definition out from between you and the Bible and learn the Lord’s truth.
For Fred to say that confessing something is a work is not only a joke, but Fred sounds like when he reads the Bible he only reads and follows what the Pharisees said it and. I recall the story of Jesus and some of His disciples walking through a wheat field, the disciples were hungry so they rubbed some wheat in their hands, then Boom! all out of no where the Pharisees pop up and say the disciples are working. They were working because by rubbing the wheat in their hands was sifting wheat.
The other question that story begs is, why where the pharisees following Jesus and his disciples? And why did they pop up when they felt Jesus and his disciples did something wrong?
Now Fred to say that if I call my self and LDS member makes me a liar, then you need to explain how LDS can say they are christian and believe what we believe, and yet if your a christian and believe what I believe, then it stands to reason I am LDS? Does it not? Also I never said I would Lie, you added that, I simply said, I will say to LDS mm That I also am LDS. I will then share with them what I believe and ask them also, how can you say your a christian yet I cannot say I am LDS?
I agree Sharon – let’s use Matt 16:15-16. I believe that Jesus is The Christ (Messiah, Annointed One, etc) and that He is the Son of The Living God (not the son of the Holy Spirit and adopted by God).
There is nothing else in that sentence to describe who or what Jesus is so you have a very limited definition there which includes many other people whom I know you would not include under the umbrella of ‘Christian’ including the LDS church. So by your definition there, we LDS are Christian.
But now I believe something on top of that verse – that Jesus is my Saviour and Redeemer. Does that put me into ‘another gospel’ RickB?
Hi Ralph. My reference to the passage in Matthew 16 was intended to provide the background for asking the question. As we’ve talked about before, we need to go much deeper than surface declarations of our beliefs in order to really communicate what we mean by what we say. The link provided at the end of the article is a good place to start a discussion (IMO) of some of the important differences between who traditional Mormons and biblical Christians each say Jesus is.
Clyde asks this question concerning Gal.1:8-9 : ” How do you know that after 1900
years that the gospel you preach now is’nt the other gospel that Paul warned about?”
That’s a great question. It’s not difficult to know the answer . The gospel that Paul
preached is readily available in the New Testament for all of us to embrace . It’s all
about Jesus and His atonement , His dying in our place , reconciling us to God —-
1Cor 15:1-4; Rom.3;23 ; 5:8,10; 6:23; 10:9-13 ; Phil 3:9 ;Eph 2:8-9 . The apostles that
Jesus directed to spread this good news, His gospel, were faithful to Him in doing so.
This gospel was dynamic, powerful, and was sufficient for everyone who embraced
it and hence it is absolutely sufficient to give to everyone who embraces it eternal life
also today. Comparing this gospel with the gospel taught by Mormon apostles we see
a stark difference. Mormon apostles claim to be personally directed by the same Jesus
as those in the New Testament , yet despite their claim to be thus directed since 1830
to preach His gospel , we see many man-made doctrines masquerading as “gospel truth”
from these men. Compare the gospel Paul taught with the following examples from the
Mormon gospel: polygamy was a law , a principle of the gospel , taught to be as
important as baptism; marrying a black person was called a law of the Mormon gospel
and was forbidden ; drinking a cup of coffee is a violation ; Temple marriage is
mandatory if eternal life is desired; sealing men to men was a gospel ordinance , as was
polandry . There’s been more. So the Mormon gospel =the true gospel/Paul’s gospel?
No !
Ralph said
Seriously Ralph, How can you LDS ignore everything we say and the Bible as a whole and have us keep repeating this over to you? Maybe you guys think if you keep asking we will finally tell you what you want to hear instead of us telling you the truth.
You cannot say I believe in Jesus and I believe in God and then say, see that makes me a Christian, when what you believe about Jesus and God does not line up with who Jesus and God say they are.
Here are a few examples. Why can you believe all the teachings that come from LDS sources and say your a Christian? Yet when us Christians claim we dont believe what your Prophets teach or what your LDS sources claim, we then cannot say we are LDS members. Why is that? Why do LDS avoid answering this question? Ralph, I seem to recall you telling me I could not call myself an LDS member and teach my gospel, yet Clyde and Fred refuse to answer me on this issue.
I suspect these guys refuse to answer me because they wont like where the answer leads them. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot claim to believe what I believe and say you a christian, yet claim I am not LDS, We either both believe the same thing or we dont.
Another example is, I cannot put on a police uniform and say I am a cop. I cannot walk into a hospital and say I am a doctor. You as I have said before cannot say, (cont)
Cont,
I know Rick B, we are friends, He like the color Pink, he lives in Florida, he loves cats and would never hurt anyone, he has really short hair and is clean cut.
In saying this all I can say is, your either speaking of some other Rick B, or you only know my name and are believing what you want about me, I have a mohawk, did Judo and Jujitsu, love fighting, love the color Black, have a bushy goatee do not like cats and am highly allergic to them.
This is the same thing with LDS and Jesus, you guys dontt know Him, you know nothing about Him and everything you believe and teach is different than what the Bible says about Jesus. Jesus even says about some people in the Bible, You will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not do various works in your name? Did we not feed the poor in your name?
Jesus will say unto them, DEPART FROM ME into everlasting Fire, for I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Wow these people thought they knew Jesus and were claiming to do many works in His name, Yet He said, He never knew them. You cannot take one or two verse and say, This speaks about who God/Jesus is, you must read the entire Bible, Old and New Testament. It tells us all we need to know about Jesus, who He is and why He died for us.
Fred, again you fail to track with the conversation. Rest assured nobody has “forced”
me to believe anything . Remember you don’t have to follow false teachers, there is
a better way . Jesus is more than able to rescue you from giving your allegiance to
a mortal man who claims to be God’s “modern -day ” mouthpiece . Submitting to this
man is’nt necessary for you to receive God’s ultimate spiritual blessing today . This
transition won’t be easy for you but you can do it , and God will assist you .