Was the Mormon ban against blacks holding the priesthood before 1978 racist?

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34 Responses to Was the Mormon ban against blacks holding the priesthood before 1978 racist?

  1. falcon says:

    Well you gave me my morning laugh. In fact I LOL several times during the video at the preposterous double speak that goes on within Mormonism.
    What do naive TBMs like our friend fred, who was on a quest to find the perfect church that speaks for God today, going to do with this information.
    I’ll tell you what fred will do, nothing, absolutely nothing. He, and his ilk, have declared the Mormon church perfect so therefore it has never done anything that would disrupt this fantasy.
    This is really cult double speak at its finest or worst, take your pick. To me the tragic part is the Mormon freds can’t break out of the fog bank of delusion and see that the LDS church is a phoney organization.
    I love this idea of “folklore” and they say it with straight faces. These people are a bunch of liars and deceivers. They’re so enamored with themselves that their pride has blinded them to any truth and any reality.
    The best that our freds can do is sputter that what is said about Mormonism is all lies. Then when it’s pointed out that it all comes from LDS sources the freds find themselves in a real jam.
    I don’t know how these Mormons maintain any sense of integrity.

  2. Rick B says:

    Wow Falcon,
    Your sounding like me. Your saying in no uncertain terms that the LDS cannot speak the truth and are misleading people. Glad I’m not the only one that understands this.

    I find it really sad, that Fred and Clyde are so blind they cannot see the truth. They instead just keep ignoring what their leaders say and keep telling people the Church is true. How can the Church be true Clyde and Fred when you have so many denominations with in Mormonism? You guys claim Christian churches are false for that reason, but ignore it in your Churches, Funny how that works.

  3. Mike R says:

    Your heart really has to go out to the Mormon people because of the way they have
    been detoured by their leaders into embracing false doctrine. All the good deeds done
    “in Jesus’ name” can’t make up for submitting to false prophets. Mormons are taught
    in church curriculum that one of the signs of a universal apostasy from the gospel is
    that those without the truth taught their own ideas as spiritual truth , so people relied
    therefore on this human wisdom as supposedly an accurate interpretation of the
    scriptures. The Mormon people have been counseled that to reject their leaders
    teachings , to doubt the ability of these men to accurately reveal God’s will on
    important matters, is to invite God’s judgement . Thankfully the Bible is not silent on
    all this type of behavior by religious leaders . False prophets who stress the need for
    living a moral lifestyle can be the most successful false prophets of all since they mix
    truth with error , and this doctrine of denying the fullest blessings of eternal life to
    Negroes is a good example of this . May the Mormon people step back from their busy
    schedules and think this issue through because Jesus said to Beware –Matt 7:15 .

  4. Mike R says:

    A choice:

    The Church of Jesus Christ : After His resurrection Jesus guided His apostles to bring
    the gospel of salvation to all men. The fullest gospel blessings to everyone .Acts 10

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: 1830 -1848? gospel goes to everyone,
    Negroes ordained [ Elijah Abel] , years later confusion over his ordination , ordination
    revoked ? 1850’s – 1978 = Negroes denied full gospel blessings. 1978 – present =
    Negroes granted full blessings , ordinances.

    A sign of the great apostasy : without revelation and priesthood authority people relied
    on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures….false ideas
    were taught as truth — LDS Manual, Preach My Gospel,p35

    Verdict: dismiss the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -Day Saints as the true Church .
    ” I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they
    prophesied .” [Jer 23:21].

  5. fproy2222 says:

    Off topic::
    With the new City Creek Center opening in SLC, there are some people saying that a church should not invest in and run a taxable, money making business to help pay for humanitarian efforts.

    Do you folks here think this, or do you think it is alright for a church to run a business to help pay for the needs of the needy?


  6. Mike R says:

    Fred, here’s a thought: What about on topic?

  7. falcon says:

    I don’t blame you for wanting to go some place else with a discussion topic.
    When examined, Mormonism doesn’t live up to its corporate image. The topic at hand here shows clearly that the Mormon god does not exist, that the Mormon prophets are totally clueless, and that the Mormon church had an ugly bigoted component that (the church) would like to bury.
    The thread topic also demonstrates the degree to which the Mormon church and its members must go in order to maintain the myth of the perfect and true church that speaks for God. The fact is that the Mormon church is a reflection of its leadership and the leadership’s thinking.
    The Mormon leaders pronounced blacks as not being valiant in some fictitious pre-existance. As a result, their skin color is something to be ashamed of. Marked with this curse, blacks were not allowed into the highest level of the Mormon lodge. It also allowed whites to feel superior to blacks because some how, the pigment of their skin indicated that they were valiant in this (fictitious) pre-existance.
    The ignoring of the attitudes that led to the ban and the sudden amnesia on the part of Mormons not having any idea regarding the ban on blacks in the priesthood is shameful.
    I’m reminded of the story of the wife who comes home and finds her husband in bed with another woman. The husband denies the woman is even there and then says to his wife, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
    That’s Mormonism in a nutshell.

  8. fproy2222 says:

    falcon says: – March 20, 2012 at 6:49 am – (fred, I don’t blame you for wanting to go some place else with a discussion topic.)

    That wasn’t on my mind; I know there is no way to keep you from needing to say bad things about the way God speaks to His children.

    I am truly interested in what the thoughts of the folks around here on this different topic and since I cannot start a topic, this was my only choice.


  9. TJayT says:

    Was the Priesthood ban racist? Of course not, it was just racial profiling!

    Seriously though, of course it was discrimination. It was the dictionary definition. People that are trying to say otherwise make no sense to me.


    I personally think it’s a fine line. I’m all for any church making as much money as it can to help those in need and spread there message. It’s when the leadership begins taking more then they need for themselves that I begin to worry. So long as that doesn’t begin to happen I have no problem.

  10. falcon says:

    There you go again. I have absolutely no idea what you mean by the following comment.

    “I know there is no way to keep you from needing to say bad things about the way God speaks to His children.”

    I believe in calling out imposters and that’s what the Mormon leadership and the Mormon church are. They are posers. You just suck it all up because you have this deer in the headlights romance going with Mormonism. Do you question anything man?
    There’s a gift of the Holy Spirit called “discernment”. Perhaps you’ve heard of it. It’s a gift God gives to born again believers to distinguish between spirits. Quite frankly, it doesn’t even take the gift of discernment to ascertain what’s going on in Mormonism. Just a little logic and the capacity to process information through the lens of reality.

    BTW, I very much believe in God’s speaking to His children. So I must ask you to describe the “god” that speaks to those in Mormonism. What I know about this Mormon god is first and foremost he was a sinful man who through clean living and obedience to eternal Mormon principles, became a god. He’s one of many gods in the universe who also pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and achieved deification.
    Now this Mormon god, we know, spoke to his Mormon prophets and revealed that people who have black skin are under a curse because of their lack of valor in the Mormon pre-existance. We also know that this Mormon god, who speaks to the Mormon prophets, changed his mind about blacks being allowed to become priests in the Mormon church. It’s called a progressive revelation redo.
    Unfortunately, current Mormon leaders can’t remember the original edict proclaimed by the Mormon god. Its now referred to as “folklore”.

  11. falcon says:

    When you write those one line little pithy Mormon speak sentences, you leave us to figure out the meaning and implications. Now maybe that’s some form of Mormon code speak that’s suppose to sound clever and deeeeeeeep.
    Are you under the impression that Christians don’t accept the voice of the Lord or God speaking to them? Look at what you have to do in order to maintain your belief in the Mormon church as perfect, true blue and a conduit for messages from some man morphed to god deity.
    What is this spirit that leads Mormonism and speaks to the Mormon prophets. Well he sent an angel with a sword to Joseph Smith and told Smith he’d kill him if he didn’t practice polygamy. He told BY that certain sins weren’t covered accept by the shed blood of the sinner. He also told BY that he, the Mormon god, was really Adam. He told BY that he, the Mormon heavenly father, had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary. Of course he told Mormon prophets about the black skin curse of Cain and the restriction on black in the priesthood. The Mormon god, who speaks to the prophets, then reversed himself on polygamy (which incidentally when revealed to Smith initially was necessary to get to the top rung of the deity ladder) and the ban on blacks in the priesthood.
    I could go on about the messages about people living on the moon and also the sun which was also “revealed”.
    Bottom line fred is that you’ll do anything necessary to maintain you faith in the Mormon system and its prophets.
    Try putting your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He’s much better than some religion that claims to speak for God.

  12. Kate says:

    Folkelore……I’m so angry about this one. So growing up, I was taught about Blacks and the pre existence and the priesthood and I believed it. LDS leaders said it. Taught it. Now it’s folkelore? I don’t think so. I hope that BYU professors continue to bring out true LDS teachings to the media. What a fast, wonderful way for the truth of Mormonism to reach all. Watching the LDS leadership try to worm their way out of the teachings of Blacks and the priesthood is priceless. How can any LDS person over the age of 35 not see that they are flat out lying? They know these things were taught at church. They know these things were said by LDS prophets and leaders. How is all of that justified? How can one stay LDS after watching these leaders lie? What about the BYU professor who spoke out? Did the LDS leadership stand by him? I wonder if he was reprimanded? The ban is only a declaration, not actual scripture. It could just as easily be removed. Then all of the past teachings would fall in line again. Who’s to say that isn’t going to happen? The same thing with polygamy, which by the way, Mormons that I know believe it will be practiced again. Some Mormon friends of mine are trying to prepare themselves in case that happens in their lifetime. WHERE IS JESUS IN ANY OF THIS??? Yes falcon, I am yelling 🙂 I learned a long time ago to seek Him. He is the truth. He can’t be found in the flip flopping teachings of Mormonism. I know, I looked. He wasn’t there.

  13. falcon says:

    This is why the Mormon concept of “progressive” revelation is so bogus.
    As it works in Mormonism, there’s a need for “progressive” revelation, because prior revelations are wrong. The “progressive” aspect of Mormon revelation provides for endless do-overs.
    The revelation regarding the ban on blacks in the Mormon priesthood was obviously wrong or it wouldn’t needed to be changed. As it turns out, the Mormon leadership is running so fast to get away from it, that they won’t even acknowledge what past prophets and apostles of the church have boldly proclaimed.
    Mormonism is phoney not only because of the do-over revelation scheme but because of the selective memory of the leaders and then excuse making, “it was just his opinion”, to “it was just folklore”. Gordon Hinckley even stated that he didn’t know that the man to god idea had ever or was currently being taught in the LDS church. Now either the guy was totally ignorant or he was a flat out liar.
    At some point don’t you have to conclude that the LDS church is not what it claims to be? I can’t imagine why you are so desperate to cling to this dead religion when you could secure your salvation through Jesus Christ.
    Mormonism can do absolutely nothing for you. You need to plan your escape.

  14. Mike R says:

    Kate, you ask how could any sincere LDS have believed this teaching about Blacks
    being inferior etc, and how can they also be so blind as to not see thru the excuses
    offered by their leaders for the change in this teaching . The answer would be :
    the Mormon reliance on personal revelation , their spiritual witness . Unfortunately
    they would have asked non-LDS to believe this same “witness” when it came to
    accepting this teaching before 1978, but also to believe the excuses for it now .
    God help the Mormon people to see the need to exchange their apostles for those who
    wrote the New Testament , the ones who delivered Jesus’ gospel of salvation to man.
    Despite the rantings of those who have discriminated against the Negroes, both Mormon
    and non-Mormon, the true gospel is color blind and has for 1900 years now offered the
    fullest blessings of eternal life to anyone who would come to Jesus in simple trust.
    Heb 7:25 .

  15. Kate says:

    I get the personal revelation thing, but how can Mormons who believed these doctrines and practiced them, stand behind leaders who are now playing innocent and saying they just don’t know where this stuff came from. These leaders today are acting like this was never really taught and is just “folkelore” when they know darn well that they too believed and practiced it for years. Today’s LDS leaders are all well over the age of 35, so they know this was doctrine and exactly where it came from because they followed the prophets and leaders before them. They KNOW it is LDS doctrine, yet lie about it publicly and call it folkelore. How can anyone stand by and not call into question the honesty and integrity of these leaders. If they want to change the doctrines and call it continuing revelation fine, but they need to OWN their past doctrines and say that it was wrong, not lie about it being folkelore and especially not telling the world that they just don’t know where it came from.
    You’ll have to forgive me today because I just don’t feel sorry for the LDS who have watched the LDS leadership openly lie and deceive about this issue over the past month or so. Most LDS should see right through this, just as they saw through Gordon Hinkley’s little lie about the “couplet” and he had to stand up in general conference and do damage control by saying he was misquoted. Time magazine did not allow him to get away with that and made it clear that he was NOT misquoted by them. People are blind because they choose to be. It’s all just so bizarre.

  16. Mike R says:

    Kate, I think you just did a fine job of describing this whole issue .

  17. falcon says:

    This whole concept of “personal revelation” is something that is of interest to me. Mormons claim (personal revelation) as kind of a bedrock principle/practice in their religion. That Mormons should practice it isn’t really all that surprising since Mormonism’s leader, Joseph Smith, lived in an area of New York where there were constant religious revivals; so much so that it was called the “burnt-over” area.
    My basic questions, regarding personal revelation, are (1) what spirit is guiding these revelations, (2) do the personal revelations agree with God’s Word the Bible, and (3) can the human psyche/soul play apart in what people believe is a revelation from God?
    The first question is easily answered regarding Mormonism. The religion’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a practitioner of folk magic. He claimed a spirit guide named Moroni and he used a seer stone to receive his major revelation, the BoM. Some Mormon temples are adorned with occult symbols. The god of Mormonism, as is clear, is not the God of the Bible. Finally, the temple rituals Mormons practice come right out of Free Masonry.
    As to the second point; cults are famous for and built on additional/extra-Biblical revelation. The Bible is not sufficient they claim. So some guru with a run-away ego declares his own new, improved and more excellent scripture.
    Finally, the human psyche/soul is capable of providing people with all sorts of miraculous spiritual feelings and experiences.
    Our former Mormon poster fmelo had first hand experience as a Mormon missionary enveloped in what he believed were spiritual experiences and being led by the Spirit. He figured out what was going on and eventually rejected it and Mormonism all together.

  18. falcon says:

    So was the ban on blacks in the priesthood part of the “restored” gospel or not? The interesting thing about the “restored” gospel is that we can’t find any record of it any where. That is, Mormons just have to take the word of a guy calling himself a prophet that all of these things did actually exist in the first century Christian church.
    So some Mormon grand leader can say he received a revelation and make it an addendum to the “restored” gospel, right? So it’s restored even if it never existed.
    It’s kind of the way with Mormonism. Doctrines, rituals, beliefs and practices sort of come and go. In that way they get restored and then un-restored.
    It’s a matter of definition. For example, the Mormon prophets are hearing directly from the Mormon god but it’s difficult to determine just what exactly came from the Mormon god, from the prophet’s imagination, or what just emerged as “folklore”. But the church and prophets are perfect and true and God’s representatives on earth, except when they’re not.
    Mormons just have to figure that out via personal revelation. That is, after the prophet is dead, a Mormon can then invoke the Mormon personal revelation clause. While the Mormon prophet is alive, the Mormon has to believe that what he says comes from the Mormon god.
    Progressive revelation provides for a free-wheeling way of operating. What emerges is Mormon reality. That’s why even one of their living prophets (GBH) can declare that he didn’t know if the Mormon church ever taught that men could become gods. That’s what’s called in Mormonism as nuance and what the rest of the reality based world calls lying.
    Mormon reality says just ignore it all and believe it, if you can figure out what “it” is.

  19. Rick B says:

    What I want to know is, Why do Mormons claim they get personal revelation from God, Yet they for some strange reason never get this revelation or answers to certain questions?

    What prophet(s) have ever gotten a word from God telling them what plain and precious parts are missing from the Bible?

    Or why they claim Christin churches are wrong because we have various denominations, they they themselves have them also?

    Or which version of the bible they should use?

    or which version of the BoM they should use?

    Funny how they supposedly get revelation saying they are right and we are wrong, yet they cannot hear from God on the more important matters and can only then say, we are left to figure it out for ourselves. Why is that?

    I know, it’s because the false prophets of the Mormon Church are all about getting power, staying in power and increasing power, then gaining money after that.

  20. Mike R says:

    Falcon, concerning “personal revelation” , I know that we can experience the holy
    Spirit’s guidance in our lives , the scriptures state such . But it seems to me that
    Mormons have been taught to rely on a inner confirmation, a feeling , that they
    would interpret as coming from God even over and above the clear teachings
    of scripture, and this seems to be because submission to the prophet trumps
    everything else . The doctrines that Mormons embrace respecting how eternal life is
    received, or on who God is , etc are all because of one man, their prophet, and his claim
    to be relaying these truths from God. To doubt /reject this one man’s ability to be
    accurate in relaying spiritual truths is to invite God’s displeasure on your life, and that’s
    a situation Mormons are fearful of being in . This whole issue with Mormonism and
    Black people is a good example of all this . Claiming to be directed personally by Jesus
    in guiding their people, Mormon leaders have had only to stress submission to their
    leadership as to why this doctrine about Blacks was valid . That the New Testament
    Church Jesus directed had no such doctrine from Him does’nt matter to these men.
    Auto-cratic organizations claiming to represent Jesus love to remind their followers
    that to fail to sustain them , reluctance to submit to them, skeptical of their doctrinal
    pronouncements, is to be ripe for apostasy and the Devil’s influence. Thus together
    with this fear, and very busy church life, keep most Mormons from stepping back for a
    moment and evaluating their leaders teachings by the Scriptures—Acts 17:11.
    Mormons can find a more complete relationship with God by exchanging their apostles
    with those in the N.T.Church

  21. Clyde6070 says:

    There is more to what has been said about this than meets the eye. For the majority of the years this country has been in existence it has had a large history of racism. 1830’s was a critical time in the nation for slavery because it made a come back. I believe that due to the cotton gin instead of making it unnecessary made it more needed. A majority of the race riots were mostly white on black violence started by any perceived slight or rumor attributed to blacks. I read a story about an ex slave who owned slaves and had a plantation. Within a generation his sons were sold into slavery. Why did this happen?

    I wonder why Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel and why no other negroes were. I have a theory that someone said not to ordain negroes and it stuck. Which leads to the embarassment of having to explain why and when it was changed to ask the question(Are you worthy?) of people who were more worthy than you.
    I also wonder what were the times like. Why did other churches condone slavery? How safe would one feel bucking the system? Even after the civil with the Jim Crow laws who would say stop? It’s the puzzle of history.

  22. fproy2222 says:

    falcon says: – (So I must ask you to describe the “god” that speaks to those in Mormonism)

    God is a loving Father that wants His children to have all that He has. He knows each and every one of us and when needed He tailors each of our trainings to help us grow and progress.

    (What I know about this Mormon god)

    What you know about Heavenly Father is mostly what the traditions of men have taught you. You rely on manmade councils to tell you how to understand God’s Word.

    (We also know that this Mormon god, who speaks to the Mormon prophets, changed his mind about blacks being allowed to become priests in the Mormon church.)

    Heavenly Father did not change His mind; He was following through with what He said He would do. Even though I did not know when it was to happen, by study I knew it was going to happen long before the change. Because I grew up among the Protestants you say were not Christians; [because they acted like normal Protestants and not like you]; I had to work to accept the change. Lucky I had a few years to work on my habits of thought before it happened. Sometimes I think I would be like you if Father had not tailored my training with time to learn and change my thinking toward blacks, after I had joined His Church. I would have had to spend my time finding all the reasons to defend my old habits of thought, instead of being willing to learn what Father wants me to do.

    (Try putting your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.)

    My faith is in Jesus, just not one of the traditional man defined Jesus’s


  23. falcon says:

    fred your a stitch, really!

    We had a dance when I was a teenager called “The Freddie”. It could have been named after you given the way you dance around a topic. So here we go.
    You have the Mormon speak down pat. How long did it take for you to get indoctrinated?
    According to what you say, Christians know about the nature of God based on the traditions of men. And Mormons know about the nature of God based on what? I’d say Mormons are pretty much locked into the traditions of their blind prophets who speak out of their own imaginations because they don’t know and understand the Scriptures which reveal to us who God is. You may as well believe in the Tooth Fairy.
    Speaking of councils, how about the council of the Mormon gods who decided to send Jesus to earth instead of Satan. That’s a bang up job of a council.
    So fred was your Heavenly Father a sinful man who became a god? Does he have a god and does that god have a god? How many of these gods are there, millions perhaps billions? Will you become a god and give spiritual birth to others who will become gods? Is your Heavenly Father a polygamous? Which of his wives is your heavenly mother.
    Well if your heavenly father followed through on what he said he would do than the Mormon prophets he supposedly was talking to got it wrong. The “Negro” wasn’t suppose to get the priesthood until the full measure of white folks made the grade.
    The god you speak of fred does not exist. He is the figment of the imagination of Joseph Smith who started out fairly conventional in his thinking and then just kept spinning off more and more revelations.

  24. falcon says:

    You said:
    “Why did other churches condone slavery? How safe would one feel bucking the system? Even after the civil with the Jim Crow laws who would say stop? It’s the puzzle of history.”
    I think you need to be a little more specific regarding “churches” condoning slavery. There were plenty who didn’t. They were called the abolitionists and they ran the Underground Railroad that helped free escaped slaves.

    And “I wonder why Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel and why no other negroes were. I have a theory that someone said not to ordain negroes and it stuck.”

    Because Mormonism is a confused mess of doctrines, practices, beliefs that leaves one wondering who’s minding the store?
    Mormonisms false prophets are flying around by the seat of their pants playing revelation. The restoration gets restored so often you wonder what the Mormon god is up to. Nothing because he doesn’t exist.

  25. Mike R says:

    Fred, you said to Falcon, ” You rely on man-made councils to tell you how to
    understand God’s Word.”
    Fred, you have embraced the teachings of man-made councils to arrive at your
    beliefs . These Council’s have introduced doctrines that have caused those who follow
    them to depart from scriptural testimony .
    Concerning the topic of this thread you still have’nt addressed the question of why
    should we trust Mormon leaders . I’m glad that at least God has brought you to see
    the truth about Blacks which was in the teachings of the apostles of the N.T. all along.
    If you would have just followed those apostles instead of Mormon apostles . To make
    your transition complete you’ll have to testify that Mormon leaders taught false
    doctrine on this issue .

    Clyde, except for mentioning Elijah Abel , what you said had practically nothing to do
    with whether Mormon leaders taught false doctrine on this issue . Can you join with
    those in other churches and testify to being misled by false doctrine on this issue ?
    If following Jesus is what you desire then follow Him by dismissing your apostles
    and replacing them with those that Jesus chose to spread His gospel of salvation.
    Keep your eyes off of churches, and bad experiences , follow Jesus . How ? Well, the
    disciples were unsure how at one point in their lives, but they soon realized that Jesus
    had the ability to meet their spiritual needs —John 6:68 . He’ll direct your path to
    where you can find a local fellowship, trust in Him .

  26. falcon says:

    I’d like to learn more about this individual training program that the Mormon god has laid out for you. Please share it with us. I’m guessing it’s the program that will allow you to become a god. I’ve always been under the impression that Mormons are in the dark as to whether or not they have done enough to merit deification. Obviously you have some sort of super secret information and formula.
    As to you and the Mormon Jesus, could you also share with us who this Mormon Jesus is and how he differs with the Jesus of orthodox Biblical Christianity. Please be specific.
    I think Mike has hit the nail on the head regarding your giving yourself over to false prophets who, to my observation, couldn’t spell “cat” if you spotted them the “c” and “t”, spiritually speaking. I can think of a lot of false prophets that have more on the ball than these guys.
    You need to study to find the truth.

  27. Kate says:

    So I’ve been doing some research about this topic and landed on a Mormon Think page. There is a lot of information about this if anyone is interested. http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

    According to Spencer Kimball, he didn’t “receive” a revelation at all:

    I asked the Twelve not to go home when the time came. I said, ‘Now would you be willing to remain in the temple with us?’ And they were. I offered the final prayer and I told the Lord if it wasn’t right, if He didn’t want this change to come in the Church that I would be true to it all the rest of my life, and I’d fight the world against it if that’s what He wanted.

    “We had this special prayer circle, then I knew that the time had come. I had a great deal to fight, of course, myself largely, because I had grown up with this thought that Negroes should not have the priesthood and I was prepared to go all the rest of my life till my death and fight for it and defend it as it was. But this revelation and assurance came to me so clearly that there was no question about it.” (Deseret News, Church Section, January 6, 1979, page 4)

    Spencer Kimball wanted to change things because of stuff that was happening:
    1. BYU and the LDS church was in danger of losing their tax exempt status because of the racism.
    2. Colleges were boycotting athletic games.
    3. Pressure from the Boy Scouts of America.
    4. The 1978 “revelation” was just prior to the temple opening in Sao Paulo Brazil. (Where members were Black. Who would be able to attend the new temple?)
    5. The Church was becoming a global church, what about converting people in Africa?

  28. Kate says:


    So pressure was being put on pres. Kimball and he wanted to change the doctrine, so he interviewed the Apostles and they held prayer in the temple, asking God what he wanted. Just give them a sign if He didn’t want them to change it……hmmm….did “personal revelation” play a part in this? The article mentions that this was a “negative revelation” They took something to God that they wanted changed, God didn’t come to them to change it. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around this one.

  29. falcon says:

    Good job Kate!
    Do you remember how polygamy ended in the LDS church. God didn’t come to the Mormon prophet and tell him to end it. There was immense pressure on the LDS church to put an end to it and join polite society or the sanctions against the church by the government would be severe.
    And just like that, polygamy ended……sort of. The Mormon leadership tried a little flim flam job that they are so good at trying to get around it’s public proclamation. Now you would have thought if the Mormon prophet had heard from the Mormon god that would have been the end of the practice. But it was still going on privately.
    These guys are snakes. They are liars and deceivers. As I mentioned, even GBH denied the doctrine of progressing to godhood when on the Larry King show. These guys have an interest in keeping the ruse going and the end justifies the means.
    And think of all of the poor saps that just go along and suck it all up.

  30. Clyde6070 says:

    I know about the abolitionist. And you say there were plenty who didn’t. My understanding is that most of them were Quakers and Mennonites and they were primarily in the northern states. Did any sect that lived in the southern states promote the abolition of slavery?
    The organization of the church may be perfect but the people in it aren’t.
    Off topic:

    Name that artist these are the lyrics…..
    I’m telling you now
    I’m telling you right away
    I’ll be saying for many a day
    I’m in love with you now

    Speaking of councils, how about the council of the Mormon gods who decided to send Jesus to earth instead of Satan. That’s a bang up job of a council. Gee, I remember part of my pre-existence a little. When we voted to send Jesus some nut jumped up and down in front of me so I wasn’t to sure my vote was counted. I was later reassured and asked about the nut who was so exuberant about coming to earth but was only told that he would have some idea of calling himself a falcon later in his life.

  31. falcon says:

    It’s amazing to me how totally ignorant Mormons are regarding the Doctrine of the Nature of God, the historical teachings of the Christian Church on this topic, the traditions of the Church and the historical record of the various councils of the Church during the first 400 years of the existence of the Church.
    Instead, Mormons substitute some pithy little sayings and repeat simplistic talking points that are past around the wards. We’ve written extensively on this topic so I’m not going to repeat what’s been previously presented.
    However isn’t it ironic that Mormons decry “the wisdom of men” and “church councils” and yet are fully on-board with a guy who claimed that he produced his “scripture” by putting his magic rock in his hat and shoved his face (in the hat) in order to receive a revelation. This of course was the same magic rock he used to try and see into the ground to find, supposedly, buried treasure. This, to the naive TBM, is really good stuff; reliable and true.
    Unbelievable how these folks will jump on the bandwagon of these aberrant and heretical cults.
    The more bizarre, ridiculous and just plain inane an idea is, the more people trapped in a cult will embrace it. There’s a psychology here that goes beyond just plain gullibility.

  32. Kate says:

    The rock in the hat thing was pretty freaky for me. How are sincere LDS supposed to know that he did that when all pictures of him show him sitting with the gold plates in his lap as he translates? This bit of information is never discussed at church. I didn’t know Emma helped or that he used the rock in the hat until I had been studying about 3 years. I wonder how many converts the LDS church would have if the Missionaries gave out this little tidbit of information? What credibility do faithful LDS who actually know this and are still in the group have??? If a man today came forward with a rock he found in a neighbor’s well and said he translated a book of scripture from God, how many people would write him off as either crazy or a con man???

    I love it when LDS trash the Councils, especially the Council of Nicea. I used to do this too, but have since studied it out and it’s nothing like I was told. Wouldn’t Spencer Kimball and the apostles getting together and having interviews and then hooking up in the temple to change a doctrine count as a “council?” It amazes me that LDS are blind to this. Don’t even get me started on the tired line ” The church is perfect, but the people aren’t.” I’ll bet you could interview a LDS member in Timbuktu and they would tell you this line. Someone please show me how the LDS church is perfect???? I already know that the prophets and leaders are/were FAR from perfect, especially in their teachings, doctrines and revelations.

  33. Rick B says:

    Leave it to you guys to ignore what your prophets taught as scripture, fact and truth, and then turn around and say, but Christians did…..

    Who cares what other churchs did or did not do with slaves. Yes they were wrong and it was wrong of them, but they never taught and said, this was a everlasting law of God that must be kept. Your prophets did that. Yes you can find christian people doing stupid stuff, but their is a difference between a christian doing and saying stupid stuff thinking it is ok, and the LDS prophets saying and doing the same thing, yet saying that these things are scripture and right from the mouth of God.

  34. Kate says:


    You really should research before you post. Here’s a good start for you: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=53
    There were abolitionists in the upper South. Cassius Clay and the missionary John Fee. Arthur and Lewis Tappan of New York; ministers, like the Reverend Elijah Lovejoy of East Alton, Illinois, and Rabbi David Einhorn of Baltimore; and even former slaveholders, such as James Birney of Alabama and Angelina and Sarah Grimkà of South Carolina. A disproportionate share were Quaker or BAPTIST in background. It seems likely that a majority of the grass-roots support for abolition came from women. Got that? Baptists and women! 🙂 I would dare say that President Lincoln was not a Quaker or Mennonite. Tell me, where did the Mormons help out with abolishing slavery?? I have read that there were 400 Mormons who fought in the Civil War, but were these Mormons from Utah or the East?? What did Brigham Young do for the abolition of slavery? What about the Salt Lake City Mormons, what did they do??

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